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#1 Posted by GOD_ABOVE_ALL (122 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

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#2 Posted by frostplatinum (352 posts) - - Show Bio

Hades stomps hard

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#3 Edited by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

Hades one shots everyone including Zeno and Future Zeno..

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#4 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8778 posts) - - Show Bio

Feats for hades?

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#5 Edited by TheDeathstar (4199 posts) - - Show Bio

Daishinkan and Angels stomp.

If we are including Zeno or the other one too even bigger stomp.

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#6 Posted by ElderElijah190 (2035 posts) - - Show Bio

Any angel kick him harder through a wall and stomp.

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#7 Posted by U_WOT_M8 (1401 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Edited by GOD_ABOVE_ALL (122 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedeathstar said:

Daishinkan and Angels stomp.

If we are including Zeno or the other one too even bigger stomp.

@elderelijah190 said:

Any angel kick him harder through a wall and stomp.

I'm really excited to see how Daishinkan and Angels will even touch who attacked all the God Cloth Saints at the same time with one attack and None of them could even react to it

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#11 Posted by GOD_ABOVE_ALL (122 posts) - - Show Bio

Feats for hades?

@u_wot_m8 said:
@precrisisbardock said:

Feats for hades?

Created the Super Dimensional Space which consists of billions upon billions of galaxies, along with an endless realm known as Elysium(https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11125/111251022/6319429-capture35gw4grqe.jpg) and maintained these realms' existence through his own power

-Effortlessly blitzed 5 God Knights who have MFTL+ feats in much weaker forms, such as crossing the Super Dimensional Space in minutes (timeframe confirmed by the fact that the eclipse had not yet plunged the Earth into Darkness, which Hades said would take minutes before they traversed this distance). This extends to combat as well, since Seiya reacted to Thanatos' attacks that crossed the light-years of the Super Dimensional Space, The Elysium, the Hell and the Normal Universe in almost no time at all and is far superior in every way to Gold Knights. Managing to splinter multiple God Cloths is a quite the impressive feat because the inferior Gold Cloths are capable of surviving an attack with the power of the Big Bangwithout sustaining any damage at all as we see when Virgo Shaka took one at point blank range, yet we find out later that his Cloth still in tact. Further evidence is for this is Shura's statement of the Gold Cloths having never been destroyed once prior to Hades' vassal Thanatos one-shotting them

-Can take a combined attack from 5 God Knights and remain standing, which also means he has some immunity to atomic destruction.

-Aligned all of the planets in our solar system with his TK (this feat was accomplished very casually from another realm)

-Remains alive as an abstract being and can possess a body of his choosing, as he did to Andromeda Shun

-Able to manipulate life and death to some extent--caused everything in his domain, except Pandora, to die as a mere child, including people, animals and plants and resurrected multiple Gold Knights for a 24 hour period to do his bidding

-Can teleport himself and other people/objects

-Can create an invisible sword of pure hatred that cannot be pulled out by ordinary means and will cause the target to slip into a comatose stateand although Seiya did manage to recover from this, it was revealed in Episode G: Assasin that he was never the same afterwards:

-Is able to repel attacks from non-divine beings

-Has displayed void manipulation and existence erasure by sending Pegasus' soul to the World of Emptiness, which exists outside of the cycle of recreation

SPONSORED BY @joviolma

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#12 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8778 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_above_all: He literally says he killed her without touching her so obviously his attack was not FTL he didn’t even use a physical attack lol.

Also that scan doesn’t show anyone tanking an attack that supposedly “Rivals the Big Bang”

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#13 Posted by GOD_ABOVE_ALL (122 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_above_all: He literally says he killed her without touching her so obviously his attack was not FTL he didn’t even use a physical attack lol.

Also that scan doesn’t show anyone tanking an attack that supposedly “Rivals the Big Bang

Loading Video...

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#14 Posted by GOD_ABOVE_ALL (122 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_above_all: He literally says he killed her without touching her so obviously his attack was not FTL he didn’t even use a physical attack lol.

Also that scan doesn’t show anyone tanking an attack that supposedly “Rivals the Big Bang”

Weaker saints already displayed Universal to Multi-Universal + destruction

Here we have Saga's attack, which was confirmed multiple times even in canon material to have the power to destroy entire galaxies.

https://imgur.com/a/B9qI8

https://imgur.com/a/x3e8r

https://imgur.com/a/tO8YO

Here we have Seiya Overpowering his attack

https://imgur.com/a/d6rEg

A weaker character than Saga, Aries no Mu one-shotting a entire dimension that were shown to contain numerous stars and nebulae in mere moments (Iapetos' realm was confused for the actual universe by another Gold Knight Aioria):

https://imgur.com/a/o9JV3

Here we see God Cloth Seiya no-sell Thanatos' Terrible Providence:

https://imgur.com/a/Hmx9C

That's the same attack which effortlessly obliterated 5 Gold Cloths in the previous volume:

https://imgur.com/a/SsWnY

One of the Gold Cloths that were destroyed was Shaka's Virgo Cloth - the one which was shown to withstand a Big Bang equivalent without receiving so much as a scratch:

https://imgur.com/a/lCXu6

The next time we see Shaka, his Gold Cloth is completely in tact:

https://imgur.com/a/KkS7w

Athena's Exclamation is specifically stated by the narration(Kuramada's words) to have the power equivalent to that of the Big Bang which created the universe:

https://imgur.com/a/i56Xh

It's also said by Anti-Pope Aiolos to have the power capable of rending the entire universe:

https://imgur.com/a/qomvU

Here we have Shaka and Shiijima, two saints that are below Hades creating and destroying countless of universes with their cosmos

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/saintseya/images/5/50/O_Nascimento_e_o_Fim_do_Universo.png/revision/latest?cb=20160221222616&path-prefix=pt

https://imgur.com/a/eeCiT

We also have this feat from a Golden Saint Odysseus without any single effort shaking violently the orbits of the whole galaxy and like 2 saints like Dohko and Cain said, the whole Universe

https://imgur.com/a/llt0M

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#15 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8778 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_above_all: Nice so still no actual speed feats.

The dimension they “destroyed” can only be as powerful as the person that created it. Not a universal feat in the slightest.

None of those feats are even close to universal much less multiversal. Closest one to it is the supposed “Big Bang” feat in which it doesn’t even look like the character is hit by it, considering the other part of the statement says it’s focused on a single point, as if to explain why the character isn’t affected by it.

And even if I ignore the fact that it doesn’t appear they’re hit by it, characters like Jiren block universal level attacks with one finger.

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#16 Posted by U_WOT_M8 (1401 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_above_all: Nice so still no actual speed feats.

The dimension they “destroyed” can only be as powerful as the person that created it. Not a universal feat in the slightest.

None of those feats are even close to universal much less multiversal. Closest one to it is the supposed “Big Bang” feat in which it doesn’t even look like the character is hit by it, considering the other part of the statement says it’s focused on a single point, as if to explain why the character isn’t affected by it.

And even if I ignore the fact that it doesn’t appear they’re hit by it, characters like Jiren block universal level attacks with one finger.

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#17 Posted by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@precrisisbardock:

Nice so still no actual speed feats.

Blitzing 5 God Cloths is more than enough if you scale Seiya alone from his feats in previous arcs. He was already dodging a billion attacks per second (according to the guides) and blitzing Aiolia back in the first part of the manga:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
No Caption Provided

"Un billion de golpes por segundo son lanzados con el lightning plasma, acabando con todos los que entren en radio de alcance."

A billion blows per second are released with the Lightning Plasma, ending all those who enter the range.

The same Seiya had a broken leg at the time and was only wearing a Bronze Cloth.

Ignoring the fact that Gold Saints have been repeatedly stated to be much faster than light and they're total fodder to even 1 God Saint, what combat speed feats are there from DB characters suggesting they can replicate the above showing at all, let alone with a broken leg and heavily fatigued...?

The dimension they “destroyed” can only be as powerful as the person that created it. Not a universal feat in the slightest.

Even if Mu's dimension feat wasn't universal, and I would argue the same for Gogeta's, there was literally a feat posted in which 2 Gold Saints clashing created and destroyed numerous universes:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Again, I can only stress how much weaker Gold Saints are in comparison to God Saints, let alone someone like Hades.

None of those feats are even close to universal much less multiversal. Closest one to it is the supposed “Big Bang” feat in which it doesn’t even look like the character is hit by it, considering the other part of the statement says it’s focused on a single point, as if to explain why the character isn’t affected by it.

...The Big Bang feat quite literally was focused down to a point in which the entire garden of Sala Trees was obliterated. The Gold Saints that initiated said attack literally aimed it at Shaka. This is reaching pretty far quite frankly.

Not to mention, other Gold Knights withstood the combined force of multiple Athena Exclamations while critically injured, so there's that:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

And even if I ignore the fact that it doesn’t appear they’re hit by it, characters like Jiren block universal level attacks with one finger.

Universal level based on what? If I remember right, Goku and Beerus both needed to clash fists in order to threaten the universe, and if you want to go strictly by feats, the most that was destroyed was a few planets... Ignoring statements from one source and accepting them for another would be a clear sign of bias.

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#18 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8778 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher:

1. He clearly dodges before the attack is attempted and also asks “for a miracle”

2. That “universes being born and perishing” are clearly hyperbole we see a galaxy that’s it.

3. Scans of her actually being hit by it? If they tried to hit her they missed.

4. Looks like they both were in a sort of beam battle considering “neither side can give an inch”, so obviously if they gave an inch they would’ve died or lost at the very least.

5. Universal based on the fact that they’re mere clashes were about to destroy the universe if Beerus hadn’t cancelled the energy out. And neither of them were going full power. Kinda like that scan u just tried to sell but actually corroborated by multiple characters and shown not to be a hyperbole.

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#19 Posted by El_directo_ (600 posts) - - Show Bio

Here we go again. Another SS vs DB thread that escalate into something else.

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#20 Posted by BathroomMan (96 posts) - - Show Bio

@el_directo_: Yeah, but at least there seems to be some actual scans and feats in this thread. It hasn't devolved into ad hominems yet. I still have hope! :P

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#21 Edited by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@precrisisbardock:

1. He clearly dodges before the attack is attempted and also asks “for a miracle”

Nothing suggests that. The attacks shown flying past his head prior to Seiya appearing behind Aiolia disagrees with that ill-founded notion.

2. That “universes being born and perishing” are clearly hyperbole we see a galaxy that’s it.

The dialogue says universes. Going by visuals alone, each universe in DB is merely a galaxy:

No Caption Provided

3. Scans of her actually being hit by it? If they tried to hit her they missed.

Baseless conjecture. Shaka was literally thought to be dead by it. And seeing as you don't even know "her" is a he, it's clear you lr knowledge on the spurce material is lacking.

4. Looks like they both were in a sort of beam battle considering “neither side can give an inch”, so obviously if they gave an inch they would’ve died or lost at the very least.

Last scan shows the result of the battle, in which one side was on the losing end. A little research goes a long way.

5. Universal based on the fact that they’re mere clashes were about to destroy the universe if Beerus hadn’t cancelled the energy out. And neither of them were going full power. Kinda like that scan u just tried to sell but actually corroborated by multiple characters and shown not to be a hyperbole.

Sounds like even more baseless hyperbole, considering nothing but a few planets were destroyed after multiple clashes. Not to mention the fact that ordinary humans and the Kais weren't even being fazed by these alleged universal attacks.

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#22 Posted by slickfront53 (124 posts) - - Show Bio

hades win

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#23 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8778 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher: You know your wrong lol you’re just an alt trolling.

-Still asked for a miracle and still not as fast as even Freeza saga.

- Still never touched he or her or whatever. Never stated that they tanked it.

- literally see tons of galaxies throughout DBS

- Beerus literally says he cancelled out the energy.

-

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#24 Posted by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@precrisisbardock:

You know your wrong lol you’re just an alt trolling.

You're in no position to be accusing anyone of trolling, considering your very troll-like responses here. Didn't you admit to not knowing anything about Saint Seiya in the Gogeta Blue thread? What makes you think you should be taken as a credible source when it comes to determining its feats then?

-Still asked for a miracle and still not as fast as even Freeza saga.

Miracle is a common term in the Saint Seiya universe when one spikes his or her Cosmo to its peak. Nobody in the Freeza Saga has LS combat speed feats, and there's certainly nobody in DBS who can react to a billion attacks per second based on their respective showings. Feel free to post feats showing otherwise.

- Still never touched he or her or whatever. Never stated that they tanked it.

Sure it did. The attack annihilated the area they were battling in...

- literally see tons of galaxies throughout DBS

Yet we see a universe being depicted as a galaxy. Go figure.

- Beerus literally says he cancelled out the energy.

That was on the third clash, which still destroyed nothing remotely close to a galaxy or universe. Gold Knights have better feats than anyone below Zeno level in terms of speed, power and durability. Going by feats, DBS loses. Going by statements and scaling, they lose just as bad if not worse.

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#25 Posted by Kratosx64x (1175 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_above_all: You are a flamewar starter your purpose on this site is pretty obvious. And taking sides in your own battle thread is against the rules. Bias against DB especially.

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#26 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8778 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher: Kid Goku outran light. Raditz was dodging LS or near LS attacks. Get outta here lol. Trash feats. Why wasn’t anyone amazed that they tanker that “big bang”? Proof that they didn’t dodge?

That galaxy pic is not even canon, show me pics of Anyone in saint seiya literally destroying a universe? Oh you can’t. GG

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#27 Posted by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@precrisisbardock:

Kid Goku outran light. Raditz was dodging LS or near LS attacks. Get outta here lol. Trash feats.

For the underlined portion, I wholeheartedly agree. Mainly due to the fact that the feats you just named don't actually exist outside of fabricated headcanon... Even if those feats could definitively be proven as light speed or close (they can't), they still don't compare to the one I posted in the slightest. Furthermore, there are feats of Gold Knights outpacing the initial expansion of the universe, which is bare minimum quintillions of times ftl, so even if these fabrications of yours held any weight, they'd ultimately be moot regardless.

Why wasn’t anyone amazed that they tanker that “big bang”?

Because unlike in DB, characters with real power don't tend to piss themselves over universal energy output.

Proof that they didn’t dodge?

The fact that they were on the ground after the clash is all the proof I need.

That galaxy pic is not even canon

Except, it really is lol. It's taken from Whis' explanation of the 12 universes that exist within DB. Learn your source material, chump.

Anyone in saint seiya literally destroying a universe? Oh you can’t. GG

Already shown, and might I add, it's a better feat than anyone in DB has managed to accomplish. If you want to base your argument solely off of visuals, Zeno hasn't even destroyed anything that looked like a universe, so... lol

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#28 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8778 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Edited by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@precrisisbardock said:

@falsearcher: Not combat speed. No new feats? Nice.

So far, you've shown nothing to even put DBS speed above beginning of series Bronze Seiya's one billion attack per second feat.

Do that and I'll start showing the better speed feats of the series.

Oh, and the expansion feat is combat speed feat, btw.

This is why knowing the source material is imperative, my guy.

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#30 Edited by ElderElijah190 (2035 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher: the speed feats u provided are as a result of miracles. Miracles isn't just something any saint can maneuver at will and this feat takes time to pull off always. Angels possess mftl speed feats effortlessly and mastered ultra instinct which brings their entire combat speed to a whole new level. They can time travel seeing as whis stated this himself at the zamatsu ark. He could kill Hades as a baby.

A God of destruction alone could give Hades a run for his money. They're as universal as Hades himself.

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#31 Posted by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher: the speed feats u provided are as a result of miracles. Miracles isn't just something any saint can maneuver at will and this feat takes time to pull off always. Angels possess mftl speed feats effortless,they can time travel seeing as who's stated this himself at the zamatsu ark. He could kill Hades as a baby.

A God of destruction alone could give Hades a run for his money. They're as universal as Hades himself.

Miracles occur constantly in Saint Seiya. It's a result of a Saint spiking his Cosmo to its peak. The feats I provided where from tiers far below that of God Saint or Hades. God Saints alone spike their Cosmo higher than ordinary Gold Saints do when creating miracles, so there's no reason why Hades wouldn't scale.

Angels have shown MFTL travel speed. There's no combat speed feats that compare to the Gold Knights that I've seen. The time traveling strategy is sketchy, since the Angels would have no knowledge of when Hades was born or even know how to access his realm. Olympian Gods also can't die permanently even when you destroy their mind, body and soul, and there's nothing suggesting Angels can affect a soul.

If GoDs are only universal, they're hardly comparable to some of the stronger Gold Knights in the series like Shaka or Dohko. Not really a match for Hades.

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#32 Edited by ElderElijah190 (2035 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher: "Miracles occur constantly in Saint Seiya. It's a result of a Saint spiking his Cosmo to its peak."

Not just burning their Cosmo to thepeak alone sadly. When he was charging at posceidion,he needed his maximum Cosmo alongside his friends and also prayed for the miracle then. And we later saw him getting beat up to getting knocked out earlier and further without him or most Gold saints getting to pull a miracle off.

"The feats I provided where from tiers far below that of God Saint or Hades. God Saints alone spike their Cosmo higher than ordinary Gold Saints do when creating miracles, so there's no reason why Hades wouldn't scale."

When weee God saints stated to be above a Gold saint when he's maneuvering a miracle? Miracles has allowed average gold saints to challenge God's and all. It's far from their average peak so no, you can't scale the average God saints that faced Hades then to Gold saints who replicated their feats as a result of miracles. Barring the use of miracles, an average Gold saint is light speed and they've stated this numerously. Aioria is one of those who stated he was light speed.

"Angels have shown MFTL travel speed. There's no combat speed feats that compare to the Gold Knights that I've seen. The time traveling strategy is sketchy, since the Angels would have no knowledge of when Hades was born or even know how to access his realm."

Beerus flew from his planet to a nebulae one shotting planets by flying through them and whis one shotted him with a neck which shows his combat speed is ridiculously above that and also because he's his far superior teacher which he proved. This was averagely on a carefree scale. If he was going at it with MUI then his combat speed is far above Hades via reaction,counter attacks and all. And what's stopping let's say beerus from destroying Hades soul like Athena did. Hakai is an existence erasure,sindra stated this when he was planning goku's assassination. Like I stated earlier, a single God is enough to give Hades a run for his money.

"If GoDs are only universal, they're hardly comparable to some of the stronger Gold Knights in the series like Shaka or Dohko. Not really a match for Hades."

Neither shaka or dohko are universal level in a solo way except as a thrio combining their maximum Cosmo to make out the Athena Exclamation which is Big Bang level. Saga is stated to be the strongest gold saint of his time which makes him above shaka. It has mostly being this way in other eras and even he needed to combine his maximum Cosmo with the rest gold saints to be universal.

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#34 Posted by Thatoneguy2958 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

Huh....so it was beerus who stated Goku matched his strikes? So was it beerus' energy as was potentially destructive to the universe?

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#35 Edited by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@elderelijah190:

Not just to his peak alone sadly. When he charging at posceidion,he needed his maximum Cosmo alongside his friends and also prayed for the miracle then. And we later saw him getting beat up to knock out earlier and further without or most Gold saints getting to pull a miracle off.

Actually, his friends merely launched him at the pillar, and this was prior to Seiya actually performing a Miracle. Poseidon even questions that he's about to do so by breaking apart the Mainstay while he's flying through the air. As for the consistency of performing Miracles whenever a Saint needs to, we literally have Seiya do it do destroy Aphrodite's poisonous flowers while crossing between temples, and a battered down Shura doing so after explicitly stating what he needs to do in order to surpass Roland's precog.

When weee God saints stated to be above a Gold saint when he's maneuvering a miracle? Miracles has allowed average gold saints to challenge God's and all. It's far from their average peak so no, you can't scale the average God saints that faced Hades then to Gold saints who replicated their feats as a result of miracles. Barring the use of miracles, an average Gold saint is light speed and they've stated this numerously. Aioria is one of those who stated he was light speed.

When it was stated numerous times that in order for one to even acquire a God Cloth, a Saint would have to raise his Cosmo infinitely higher and hotter than ever before. When have Gold Saints challenged Gods through Miracles? The statement you're referencing applies to all mortals in general. Seiya himself has challenged a God without any sort of miracle aiding him, such as when he managed to damage Hades. In fact, he managed to defeat a God with his God Cloth alone, no Miracles involved. So yeah, God Saints who far surpass Gold Saints and raise their Cosmo to the infinite would most definitely scale to lower levels of power. This is like saying SSJB Goku can't scale to Namek Saga Freeza because he has no feats of destroying a planet. Gold Saints have statements of far surpassing LS without the use of Miracles anyway.

No Caption Provided

That's already more than most Dragon Ball characters have in terms of quantifiable combat speed, to be perfectly honest. You're also referencing an event from the Battle of the Gods movie and Super then trying to connect the two, despite the fact that each continuity follows a different route. In the anime, Beerus never destroyed those moons/planets after eating spicy food, so Whis didn't have to knock him out. Even then, Bronze Knights have flown past entire galaxies in less than minutes, yet were tagged by Hades's underlings while flying through the air. Galaxies are much larger than a nebula. MUI doesn't make them any faster than a mere Gold Knight. Their speed feats remain inferior. As for what's stopping Beerus, a simple blitz would do just fine, but even destroying Hades' soul isn't enough to put him down. Aioros did the exact same thing to Zeus and it didn't stop him.

Neither shaka or dohko are universal level in a solo way except as a thrio combining their maximum Cosmo to make out the Athena Exclamation which is Big Bang level. Saga is stated to be the strongest gold saint of his time which makes him above shaka. It has mostly being this way in other eras and even he needed to combine his maximum Cosmo with the rest gold saints to be universal.

Actually, they are. Shaka's attack against Shijima darkness which was going cause the end of the universe collided and stalemated it. Shion was stated to have a powerful enough Cosmo to destroy and recreate the universe while using Stardust Revolution:

No Caption Provided

Dohko stalemated this attack after his Cloth blocked it completely:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Shaka was shown giving some trouble to Saga, Camus and Shura by himself. If they didn't combine their strength to use Athena Exclamation, he would have won the battle by removing their senses. Dohko and Shion both have higher stats than Saga in the databook as well, and Aioros was said to be stronger than Saga.

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#36 Posted by deactivated-5c60dc252a2af (5801 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Edited by zgtfreak (1875 posts) - - Show Bio

@b_r023: False. So far he has argued on why Hades stomps a single character or a group of characters; he did not argue that Hades solos the verse, aka what this thread is about (unless I missed something).

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#38 Posted by ElderElijah190 (2035 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher:

"Actually, his friends merely launched him at the pillar, and this was prior to Seiya actually performing a Miracle."

Not merely bro. Don't forget they launched him at it with their maximum effort as well. And no it wasn't prior to that moment, it was in the middle or process of his ascension that he prayed to Athena for a miracle then or that the miracle started working out.

" Poseidon even questions that he's about to do so by breaking apart the Mainstay while he's flying through the air. "

I don't get how this is relevant here.

"As for the consistency of performing Miracles whenever a Saint needs to, we literally have Seiya do it do destroy Aphrodite's poisonous flowers while crossing between temples,"

That wasn't in the middle of a battle. He had enough time then because that was simply a barrier set up by Aphrodite to keep intruders in check so we can't gauge how he can replicate making out a miracle in the middle of a battle.

"and a battered down Shura doing so after explicitly stating what he needs to do in order to surpass Roland's precog."

This is a low end miracle he depicted here and it wasn't easy to achieve as well. There have being cases once again that gold saint have being defeated or saints in general without getting to pull off a miracle in the series(shura himself got defeated by shiryu). A miracle isn't their Cosmo alone but it's pushed by the assistant of a God. God Seiya can only scale to average gold saints but don't scale him to feats they replicated at a result of miracles.

" When it was stated numerous times that in order for one to even acquire a God Cloth, a Saint would have to raise his Cosmo infinitely higher and hotter than ever before."

Don't forget you also need the blood of Athena to also attain the God cloth(this already proves a God is involved even at this certain points) And also that doesn't matter because a miracle actually has to do with the aid of a God. Burning your Cosmo to the maximum or infinity (hyperbole) only prove they're above the maximum height of a Gold Saint not one with a miracle. You failed to prove otherwise.

" When have Gold Saints challenged Gods through Miracles? The statement you're referencing applies to all mortals in general."

Gold saint seiya did against Poseidon.

" Seiya himself has challenged a God without any sort of miracle aiding him, such as when he managed to damage Hades."

How are u sure about this? Him and his friends efforts did nothing to Hades earlier individually and The maximum efforts of the God saints also did no much damage to hades so it should be obvious he needed the aid of a miracle then. And Even though he didn't,that doesn't mean he can scale to Gold saints with miracles so I don't see the point here.

"In fact, he managed to defeat a God with his God Cloth alone, no Miracles involved."

What God? Thanatos is obviously not on Par with Poseidon who seiya one shotted and weakened him severely as a result of a miracle in gold cloth. Thanatos attacks also failed to knockout kiki or the silver saints. Also, u need to get the fact that my point here isn't that they need a miracle everytime to face a God but that miracle isnt a feat saints attain alone but with the aid of a God which makes it not their powerset strictly. God Saint can only scale to a Gold powerset strictly.

" So yeah, God Saints who far surpass Gold Saints and raise their Cosmo to the infinite would most definitely scale to lower levels of power. "

Don't get u here.

"This is like saying SSJB Goku can't scale to Namek Saga Freeza because he has no feats of destroying a planet."

Namek saga frieza destroyed a planet with a ki blast from a finger. Not by multiplying his ki to the maximum or infinite and praying or need the assistant of some God to replicate that said feat so it's far from the same lol. I ain't saying u can't scale him to Gold saints in general.

"Gold Saints have statements of far surpassing LS without the use of Miracles anyway"

Yet aioria who is one of the faster gold saints stated he was light speed. Same with Aldebaran. Even shura earlier before that scan stated they were light speed. The inconsistency is much more higher than what is generally provided for dbz/dbs tbh.

"That's already more than most Dragon Ball characters have in terms of quantifiable combat speed, to be perfectly honest."

Yet we'd statements that they're light speed on other numerous cases. And okay let me just work with u for a second, isn't it like dyspo who's confirmed ftl in combat was completely humiliated and couldn't even keep up with ui goku right? Beerus and champa flying at mftl speed in combat one shotting planets across the solar system right? An angel could one-shot them all while eating snacks in a carefree manner like whis did with beerus.

" You're also referencing an event from the Battle of the Gods movie and Super then trying to connect the two, despite the fact that each continuity follows a different route. In the anime, Beerus never destroyed those moons/planets after eating spicy food, so Whis didn't have to knock him out. Even then, Bronze Knights have flown past entire galaxies in less than minutes,"

That was a travel speed which doesn't equate to what champa and beerus replicated in combat.

"yet were tagged by Hades's underlings while flying through the air."

Tagged in combat this time.

"Galaxies are much larger than a nebula. MUI doesn't make them any faster than a mere Gold Knight."

Mui is combat related (which makes it opt out any form of getting tagged without the aid of the senses via whis statements) in the first place and completely different from travel speed so I quite agree if travel speed is concerned. Whis can travel all he wants at mftl+ speed without mui.

"Their speed feats remain inferior."

Definitely not if combat speed is concerned like I proved above.

"As for what's stopping Beerus, a simple blitz would do just fine,"

How does he do this when beerus is comparably as fast as him in speed?

"but even destroying Hades' soul isn't enough to put him down. Aioros did the exact same thing to Zeus and it didn't stop him."

Too bad Athena killed him by destroying his soul so...........

"Actually, they are. Shaka's attack against Shijima darkness which was going cause the end of the universe collided and stalemated it."

Once again, inconsistency lurking arround in saint seiya like it's said to be in dbs. Cain/Abel was stated to be the strongest Gold saint of that era and his strongest technique was the galaxian explosion which is Galaxy+ level but shijima gets to be universal via a solo effort? Definitely not. And they destroyed that universe and created it before it was completely grown in another dimension which makes it a pocket universe if we don't go by inconsistency.

"Shion was stated to have a powerful enough Cosmo to destroy and recreate the universe while using Stardust Revolution:"

And??? The technique in question did no such thing and when he used it later on with his maximum cosmo or his protege(aries much) , it did no such thing but only created a pocket galaxy which was stated to be a universe and nothing more.

"Dohko stalemated this attack after his Cloth blocked it completely:"

He tanked it from Aries Mu. The same guy who needed to combine his maximum Cosmo alongside other gold saint to replicate a big bag attack. It's highly inconsistent if he's universal level solely.

"Shaka was shown giving some trouble to Saga, Camus and Shura by himself."

He was holding his own against them. Not one of his attacks phased saga. As a matter of fact, he erased every single move shaka pulled against them then with no effort. Plus they were all playing a game then to deceive Hades.

"If they didn't combine their strength to use Athena Exclamation, he would have won the battle by removing their senses."

They were all playing a mind game then or were u not reading the series properly? Statements has been made for Saga being the strongest gold saint with shaka involved.

"Dohko and Shion both have higher stats than Saga in the databook as well, and Aioros was said to be stronger than Saga."

Dohko and shion aren't from saga's era plus having higher stats than him doesn't mean they're stronger. Show me the scan indicating aioros is stronger than shaka and that he's universal as a result of that

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#39 Edited by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@elderelijah190:

Not merely bro. Don't forget they launched him at it with their maximum effort as well. And no it wasn't prior to that moment, it was in the middle or process of his ascension that he prayed to Athena for a miracle then or that the miracle started working out.

On the contrary, they were at their limit by the time they even launched Seiya towards the Mainstay:

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Nothing about them launching Pegasus was ever said to affect his Miracle or give him some boost of strength. The plan was merely for them to send him flying at the Mainstay, while he would destroy it by breaking apart its atoms after raising his Cosmo to the absolute limit. This goes along with what I was saying earlier about how to create miracles:

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There was never any mention of Seiya creating a Miracle or praying for it prior to Poseidon acknowledging that that's what he was about to do. Not that he had already done so. Your argument seems to be that a good portion of the feat should be credited to Hyoga and Shiryu, but have you forgotten that when Seiya initially proposed the idea to them, their response was that nothing would happen other than Seiya's body being destroyed after hitting the pillar. This is prior to when Poseidon punished them with his onslaught of attacks to the point where they barely had the strength to stand:

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I don't get how this is relevant here.

Simple. Poseidon questioning whether he was about to create a Miracle by destroying the pillar is demonstrable evidence that the Miracle wasn't already in the process of working.

That wasn't in the middle of a battle. He had enough time then because that was simply a barrier set up by Aphrodite to keep intruders in check so we can't gauge how he can replicate making out a miracle in the middle of a battle.

The Shura example was. If you want more examples that took place in a battle, there's Seiya creating a Miracle not once, but twice in battle against Aioria on command. This of course was synonymous with Seiya burning his Cosmo to a certain level.

This is a low end miracle he depicted here and it wasn't easy to achieve as well. There have being cases once again that gold saint have being defeated or saints in general without getting to pull off a miracle in the series(shura himself got defeated by shiryu). A miracle isn't their Cosmo alone but it's pushed by the assistant of a God. God Seiya can only scale to average gold saints but don't scale him to feats they replicated at a result of miracles.

This is false. A Miracle isn't pushed by the assistance of any God in question, at least that's not any sort of requirement. In actuality, a Saint typically asks his Cosmo to produce a Miracle after burning it to a high enough level. I'm also unsure as to what you're implying by "low end Miracle" and what evidence you have to substantiate the notion that it wasn't easy to achieve. Because he quite literally achieved it while on the verge of passing out and saying precisely what he needed to do. As for Shura losing to Shiryu, he never asked for a Miracle and believed himself the better of the two the majority of their fight. Shiryu himself had also created a Miracle in that fight, btw. Seiya can scale just fine to each Gold Saint while wearing his God Cloth, regardless of whether Miracles are factored in or not. This is substantiated by the fact God Seiya's Cosmo burns at a hotter degree than it ever had while he himself performed Miracles in the past, which often allowed him to approach, if not outright surpass, the level of high tier Gold Knights like Saga with nothing but a Bronze Cloth.

Don't forget you also need the blood of Athena to also attain the God cloth(this already proves a God is involved even at this certain points) And also that doesn't matter because a miracle actually has to do with the aid of a God. Burning your Cosmo to the maximum or infinity (hyperbole) only prove they're above the maximum height of a Gold Saint not one with a miracle. You failed to prove otherwise.

Yeah, but that was a separate requirement to something that frankly has no relation to performing a Miracle, so nothing about that proves a Miracle has to be performed with the aid of a deity, nor would it even make sense, due to numerous statements in the series explaining that a God doesn't grant a Miracle and how Miracles are born from mortals in order to achieve a power that allows them to challenge God. Shura outright debunks your theory:

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The proof is pretty elementary. We have Saints that have performed numerous Miracles in the past. These same Saints acquire a God Cloth by burning their Cosmo to the infinitely higher than it has ever risen before (repeated at least 3 times in the franchise). Therefore, the level of Cosmo needed to obtain a God Cloth is greater than the level of Cosmo needed to perform a Miracle. You don't really have a decent point to counter this, nor have you brought anything substantial so far...

Gold saint seiya did against Poseidon.

The Miracle he performed was destroying Poseidon's Pillar. He never used a Miracle to injure or delay Poseidon himself in battle.

How are u sure about this? Him and his friends efforts did nothing to Hades earlier individually and The maximum efforts of the God saints also did no much damage to hades so it should be obvious he needed the aid of a miracle then. And Even though he didn't,that doesn't mean he can scale to Gold saints with miracles so I don't see the point here.

Because there was never any mention of a Miracle being performed in that instance, and to even suggest so would require more speculation than I'm willing to tolerate in an argument. If we go down that road, I could apply this same logic and ask how you can be sure Gold and Bronze Knights weren't creating Miracles in combat numerous times effortlessly when it wasn't stated. Gold Saints with Miracles don't have the feats of harming a deity like Hades, and since I've already shown definitively how the mere act of wearing a God Cloth requires one to peak his Cosmo to a higher level than it's ever been before, I've more than met the burden of proof to substantiate the scaling. What you need to do is bring some counter evidence to suggest this scaling wouldn't work, because you haven't managed to do so yet.

What God? Thanatos is obviously not on Par with Poseidon who seiya one shotted and weakened him severely as a result of a miracle in gold cloth. Thanatos attacks also failed to knockout kiki or the silver saints. Also, u need to get the fact that my point here isn't that they need a miracle everytime to face a God but that miracle isnt a feat saints attain alone but with the aid of a God which makes it not their powerset strictly. God Saint can only scale to a Gold powerset strictly.

You answered your own question. Thanatos and Hypnos are both Gods in their own right. This comes directly from the mouth of Thanatos himself. Just because they aren't Hades level doesn't suddenly make them any less of a deity. Also, you're twisting the context of Seiya's battle with Poseidon. Not once did he use a Miracle against him in combat; only to destroy the Mainstay. He didn't injure or weaken him at all. Meanwhile, God Cloth Seiya and the rest have feats of outright stomping Gods and even managing to wound Hades. Already debunked your "miracle isn't a feat the saints attain alone" claim with scans from the manga. No need to keep beating a dead horse.

Don't get u here.

The point being that the Cosmo required to obtain a God Cloth is >> that of a Miracle, so there's no reason why a God Knight wouldn't scale to a Gold Knight under any circumstance.

Namek saga frieza destroyed a planet with a ki blast from a finger. Not by multiplying his ki to the maximum or infinite and praying or need the assistant of some God to replicate that said feat so it's far from the same lol. I ain't saying u can't scale him to Gold saints in general.

Yeah, but he did so with a special technique that Goku has never shown. Another example would be to say that Goku can't survive the destruction of a planet like Freeza can because he lacks Freeza's weird physiology that enables him to stay alive while cut in half.

Yet aioria who is one of the faster gold saints stated he was light speed. Same with Aldebaran. Even shura earlier before that scan stated they were light speed. The inconsistency is much more higher than what is generally provided for dbz/dbs tbh.

Aiolia has also said he, along with Gold Saints in general, are FTL plenty of times:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Similarly, there's statements within the original manga alone that say Bronze Saints are mach 1, yet they have feats and even other statements proving they can reach much higher. Hell, Lightning Plasma alone is already many times greater than light speed given the numbers the series provides us. About wither it's more inconsistent than DB, I highly doubt that. Dyspo, who's the only character in the series with statements confirming his combat speed is LS or greater, has these same conflicting statements as well. It's been said he's faster than light and that he's only light speed... In a recent DBS chapter, Vegeta remarked that he needed 5 whole seconds to fly from his house to Satan City, which is located on the exact same continent according to the DB map. Light is fast enough to circle the each 7.5 times in a single second...

Yet we'd statements that they're light speed on other numerous cases. And okay let me just work with u for a second, isn't it like dyspo who's confirmed ftl in combat was completely humiliated and couldn't even keep up with ui goku right? Beerus and champa flying at mftl speed in combat one shotting planets across the solar system right? An angel could one-shot them all while eating snacks in a carefree manner like whis did with beerus.

Well, that alone is more than 99% of DB characters have to their name combat speed wise lol. Dyspo was also said to be only LS as well, and we don't even know whether he can achieve that in base or if he needs his multiplication technique or Super Maximum LS mode, which he wasn't shown using against UI Goku, evident by Toppo keeping pace with him during the charge. Now in direct contrast to this, we've seen Zeno and other characters keep up with and react to MUI Goku and Jiren's battle, yet Zeno couldn't even perceive Dyspo with his own eyes or the help of the God Pad. Beerus and Champa's feat in the manga relies on a few factors that need to be proven, such as whether or not those were planets at all and not moons which orbited a large planet (the same one we see in the background), or what the distance was between said moons/planets along with a general idea of the timeframe it took them to fly between them. You're also bringing up travel speed with this one. Flying between celestial bodies has nothing to do with combat speed. They were chasing each other at the time. One was running after the other one similar to what occurs in a game of tag. There's a point in time where Beerus outruns Champa's blasts, but that wasn't during the scene depicting them flying between those moons or planets. It's not as though they were exchanging punches or kicks at that speed.

That was a travel speed which doesn't equate to what champa and beerus replicated in combat.

...So then why would you attempt to argue Whis having FTL combat speed by tagging Beerus mid flight by referencing an example of Beerus traveling through space? Seems like a double standard to me, mate.

Tagged in combat this time.

Seiya was flying through the air at the time. He tried to escape from Thanatos in order to rescue Athena. It's no different than what you tried to argue with Beerus and Whis using the nebula feat, only this one doesn't happen to be retconned.

Mui is combat related (which makes it opt out any form of getting tagged without the aid of the senses via whis statements) in the first place and completely different from travel speed so I quite agree if travel speed is concerned. Whis can travel all he wants at mftl+ speed without mui.

Combat related or not, it becomes a moot point if the person using it simply lacks the speed to keep up with his opponent, which both Whis and Goku do against someone like Hades. This was made evident by Jiren managing to keep up and even tag Goku on a couple of different occasions.

Definitely not if combat speed is concerned like I proved above.

Especially if combat speed is concerned. I still haven't seen any definitive proof to suggest either of them can replicate Seiya's feat of dodging a billion attacks per second. A feat he accomplished with a broken leg. Never mind keeping up with someone like Hades who makes Gold Knights that are MFTL+ and even manage to exceed the speed of the universe's early expansion look like nothing.

How does he do this when beerus is comparably as fast as him in speed?

Simple. It's because Beerus isn't. By feats or by scaling.

Too bad Athena killed him by destroying his soul so...........

Too bad Hades isn't actually dead, as seen in Episode G: Assassin.

Once again, inconsistency lurking arround in saint seiya like it's said to be in dbs. Cain/Abel was stated to be the strongest Gold saint of that era and his strongest technique was the galaxian explosion which is Galaxy+ level but shijima gets to be universal via a solo effort? Definitely not. And they destroyed that universe and created it before it was completely grown in another dimension which makes it a pocket universe if we don't go by inconsistency.

Well, there's plenty of inconsistency in DBS as well. Goku isn't anywhere near universal going by consistent showing or statements, nor is he faster than light in any way. Whis has even said he couldn't stop the power that was going to destroy the universe in the Battle of the Gods arc, consistently speaking, nobody below Zeno is universal. The dialogue says universe, not pocket universe. We don't go by baseless headcanon in debates, my friend. Also, if we go by consistency, Odysseus was threatening to destroy the entire universe just through the mere act of reviving, and Gemini Cain's Galaxian Explosion was said to make the universe tremble after all. The fact of the matter is, there's more consistent universal feats and statements for Gold Saints alone than there is in DBS for anyone whose name isn't Zeno. The same goes with being LS-FTL, except that applies to literally everyone in DB...

And??? The technique in question did no such thing and when he used it later on with his maximum cosmo or his protege(aries much) , it did no such thing but only created a pocket galaxy which was stated to be a universe and nothing more.

Pocket galaxy? What are you on about here? I think you're confusing this with Mu's Starlight Extinction... Not that it matters. You're once again playing the typical double standard DB debaters here have proven themselves guilty of. Sure, the technique never destroyed a universe on panel... Just as Goku and Beerus haven't even destroyed a star on panel. Most of the Angles haven't even destroyed planets, so on and so forth. This feats or it didn't happen game can be played just as easily with DB, except unlike Shaka and Shijima who actually have on panel feats of wiping out universes, no one in DB barring Zeno shares that luxury or comes anywhere close to it. I typically don't like to play the "who can lowball the hardest" game, since I actually do enjoy DB, but if the game must be played, I promise you the end result will be the same, with DB on the losing side.

He tanked it from Aries Mu. The same guy who needed to combine his maximum Cosmo alongside other gold saint to replicate a big bag attack. It's highly inconsistent if he's universal level solely.

Um, no. That was Aries Shion's attack at the battle by the clock tower in Sanctuary. Nobody said Ares Mu is universal in this discussion. Also, Goku and Beerus both needed to combine their powers to threaten the universe. Each time Beerus threatens a universe, it's while he's fighting someone else. Does that make it inconsistent for him to be universal alone? Just asking, because by the logic you're applying here, it most certainly seems so.

He was holding his own against them. Not one of his attacks phased saga. As a matter of fact, he erased every single move shaka pulled against them then with no effort. Plus they were all playing a game then to deceive Hades.

Literally the only attack he used against Shaka in that entire fight was Tenbu Horrin, and it more than merely fazed him. He had all but 1 of his senses outright stripped from him, and acknowledged their only option at winning the battle was to initiate the Athena Exclamation.

They were all playing a mind game then or were u not reading the series properly? Statements has been made for Saga being the strongest gold saint with shaka involved.

Once again, this is wrong. They didn't even catch wind of Shaka's ruse until after they realized Athena Exclamation was their only hope at victory. It wasn't until Shaka was about to server their last sense that he said they finally appear to comprehend what needs to be done. I mean, they were each in shock and awe after just hearing the words Athena Exclamation for the first time, so what makes you think that was part of some elaborate mind game?

Dohko and shion aren't from saga's era plus having higher stats than him doesn't mean they're stronger. Show me the scan indicating aioros is stronger than shaka and that he's universal as a result of that

Saga himself isn't even in the same age group as the other Gold Knights. He and Aiolos were already Gold Knights when Shaka and the rest were still kids in training. The statement of Saga being the strongest, or rivaling Aiolos for top dog, was made during a flashback prior to him even betraying Sanctuary, when Shaka was still an untrained boy.

Show me the scan indicating aioros is stronger than shaka and that he's universal as a result of that

Oh, you mean the numerous scans from the series and guides that state exactly that? Sure thing:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

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"o heroi do passado e o cavaleiro mais poderosos de athena, reverenciado por todos"

"the hero of the past and the most powerful knight of athena, revered by all"

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"pela deusa athena e pela paz na terra, aiolos lutou sozinho contra inimigos poderosos, como o exercito do deus soi e o monstro mitolo gico tifon, derrotando todos eles suas grandes vitorias o fez ser considerado o mais forte dos cavaleiros de ouro no entanto ele renunciou a tudo isso para proteger a bebe athena das garras malinasdo grande mestre e fugir do santuario"

"by the goddess Athena and by peace on earth, Allah fought alone against powerful enemies, as the army of the god soi and the monster mythological gico typhon, defeating all of them his great victories made him to be considered the strongest of the golden knights however he resigned to all this to protect the baby athena from the malinas claws of the great master and escape from the sanctuary"

As for being universal, you are aware that he stalemated Athena Exclamation on his own and was implied to be capable of overpowering it if not for Rhadamathys' assistance:

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He's also currently on a crusade to destroy the current timeline in Episode G: Assassin, and it's implied that he's already done so to many other timelines.

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#40 Posted by Legendary_User (232 posts) - - Show Bio

Ultra Instinct Goku solos Saint Seiya verse lol.

JUST STOP ALREADY THIS IS A MISMATCH IN GOKU'S FAVOR!

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#41 Posted by Legendary_User (232 posts) - - Show Bio
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#42 Posted by demonbane (107 posts) - - Show Bio

Ultra Instinct Goku solos Saint Seiya verse lol.

JUST STOP ALREADY THIS IS A MISMATCH IN GOKU'S FAVOR!

nope

Online
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#43 Posted by Legendary_User (232 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by MYGOD101 (497 posts) - - Show Bio

y'all might want to take Grand priest out of this match since he is Zeno's angel and is above Zeno.

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#45 Posted by hurricanefunnel (2151 posts) - - Show Bio
@mygod101 said:

y'all might want to take Grand priest out of this match since he is Zeno's angel and is above Zeno.

this

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#47 Posted by CaoCao (1434 posts) - - Show Bio

Hades slaughters.

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#48 Posted by ChaosReigns (169 posts) - - Show Bio

Hades. Strength and speed do matter, but Hades has hax advantage.

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#50 Posted by MYGOD101 (497 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher

..I just had to correct you buddy because you didn't use your eyes.

Goku tanked the Combined powers of Beerus and his attack at the end of episode 14. so......I don't understand what you mean by "they needed the combined powers to threaten the universe" if Goku can tank both there attacks then your argument is moot since later on we seen him do just that.

Goku doesn't need beerus to threaten the universe he is already universal by the end of BOG arc.