H2H Only - MCU Winter Soldier(Winter soldier-mode) vs CW Arrow w/bow

There’s no way this hasn’t been done yet. And Oliver can’t beat SS’s in h2h, he can’t put them down before he’s put down himself.

Ollie shoots the non arrow timer

@rbt: yes, he shoots him with just a bow in a h2h fight...

Oliver would legit win at this point.

He's Spectre. He isn't bound by any rules.

Bucky

Bucky wins in melee and unarmed combat.

Winter Soldier

Oliver stomps in h2h.

Winter Soldier, low difficulty.

Who do you think is more skilled? And how wide is the gap?

How wide is the gap when it comes to striking?

Honestly, Oliver might win now, assuming Nyssa scaling is still consistent.

@rbt: Oliver's more skilled, his best feat is being better than Nyssa, right?

As for striking, his metal arm is way beyond Oliver's striking power, assuming his regular hits are around the same level as Steve's they should also be considerably harder than Oliver's hits.

Bucky in a good fight.

Bucky is going to land hits on Ollie despite the latter's skill. If he gets hit by the metal arm then he's going to hurt. One good backhand and ollies out.

Winter Soldier medium difficulty.

No. His best feat is being a lot better than someone who is a lot better than Nyssa. Who I'd say is better than Buck(in skill).

As for striking, his metal arm is way beyond Oliver's striking power, assuming his regular hits are around the same level as Steve's they should also be considerably harder than Oliver's hits.

Steve and Buck don't have the same serum. As for the metal arm or his regular arm, what are his best standalone striking feats(which doesn't involve hurting other characters) with those?

Arrow

Green Arrow wins. Being trained by Ras Al Ghul puts him above Winter Soldier in H2H.

Eggcellent.

I honestly feel like GA wins here since while he may not have the same physical strength as bucky, the gap between them isn't too far and honestly, GA is the far more skilled fighter as in this clip shows him fighting in CQC with a flash who couldn't control himself. Even though it's unrealistic, the fact that Ollie survived that fight and wasn't blitzed instantly is an extreme testament to his fighting skill as Barry himself was like moving at somewhere around Mach 1 based on his current speed during that season.

@godgate: That was S1 Barry. Barely Mach 1. S2 Barry was Mach 3.3.

I cant see oliver winning without his arrows

@rbt: Ah, thanks for correcting me, I misremembered it.

@mexcomics2078: He has a better feat than this technically in the Elseworlds crossover where Barry and him switch existences and while under the influence of fear toxin, they both fight thinking that they are fighting their rivals (IE: Oliver uses barry's fully to fight who he assumes to be the RF and Barry is fighting one of Oliver's villains) In that fight, they are showed as being in a CQC dead-lock until batwomen breaks them up.

@rbt:

No. His best feat is being a lot better than someone who is a lot better than Nyssa. Who I'd say is better than Buck(in skill).

You think his bow skills scale to his swordsmanship?

Steve and Buck don't have the same serum. As for the metal arm or his regular arm, what are his best standalone striking feats(which doesn't involve hurting other characters) with those?

I'm aware about the serums though, but I think Steve and Buck are consistently portrayed as physical peers, would you not agree?

Metal Arm Feats (Non Scaling):

• Shattering concrete through a metal frame.
• Punching through multiple inches of concrete.
• Busting out of restraints and knocking down a fortified door.

@subline:

You think his bow skills scale to his swordsmanship?

James Bamford seems to think so.

I'm aware about the serums though, but I think Steve and Buck are consistently portrayed as physical peers, would you not agree?

Steve was always shown as superior, IMO. Regardless, the only thing I'd ever scale one super-soldier from another is for lifting strength. Stuff like speed, agility, striking and durability should be separate, considering all of them have a different source of enhancement.

Shattering concrete through a metal frame. Punching through multiple inches of concrete.

Oliver can easily break chains and padlocks with his hits. And I'm sure you've seen the gif of him kicking someone through a concrete pillar. Amongst other things. Would you say those are somewhat comparable with Buck's feat like breaking concrete and a metal frame?

The last one is a tad unquantifiable considering we know nothing about what the door is made of.

Oliver mid diffs, 8 LoA scaling solos

@rbt: The Gap is very wide:

https://gfycat.com/ViciousBoldDodobird

Without the engine the Soldier would have been sent flying even further, I also don't doubt that he could replicate Red Skull's feat of denting a bulletproof shield made of steel, he doesn't even need the metal arm to do it!

Skillwise, Bucky isn't bad at all:

Remember this is pre training with Hydra, he was already a 3 time YMCA Boxing Champion, and after he learned numerous Martial Arts, Cap also has this statement from the SHIELD files on him:

Bucky is pretty close to Cap Skillwise.

@joker567892: Buck being close to Cap skill wise doesn't mean much considering Oliver is landslide ahead of Cap in skill as well.

Ragdolling people with a hit is nothing new. Oliver sent a guy flying through a chained door with a kick. The distance was nowhere near as Buck's, but considering that the guy struck a door secured by chain and snapped the chain on impact, wouldn't they become somewhat comparable?

@rbt:

James Bamford seems to think so.

If this is so, Oliver should have a decent advantage.

Steve was always shown as superior, IMO. Regardless, the only thing I'd ever scale one super-soldier from another is for lifting strength. Stuff like speed, agility, striking and durability should be separate, considering all of them have a different source of enhancement.

What makes you say Steve was shown as superior?

Oliver can easily break chains and padlocks with his hits.

The chains were very thin, I really don't think it comes close to the metal arm, the padlock too.

Even Steve with was able to break a metal harness with punches, and his peer Red Skull could dent his old Shield, and we know that Bucky is quite a few tiers above this.

And I'm sure you've seen the gif of him kicking someone through a concrete pillar.

A pillar that was relatively hollow, he was only kicking through around 1 inch at best, Bucky's arm punched through multiple inches.

The last one is a tad unquantifiable considering we know nothing about what the door is made of.

We see the door has multiple thick metal hinges:

After Bucky ragdolls the door, the hinges are no longer there.

I seriously struggle to see Oliver replicating it, and I also think the part where he just breaks the restraints is worth noting, while it's not a striking feat, it still clearly shows how strong the metal arm actually is, as with limited movement, he busts out of the three arm restraints, and the four restraints on his body with one thrust.

@subline:

If this is so, Oliver should have a decent advantage.

Would you say Nyssa is more skilled than Buck? I'm just trying to see how wide you think the skill gap between Buck and Oliver actually is.

What makes you say Steve was shown as superior?

Just their general fights. Steve never looked to be in a bad position. And Buck always had to resort to using his arm to get an upper hand.

The chains were very thin, I really don't think it comes close to the metal arm, the padlock too

Um, those chains were thicker than anything Buck has broken with his strikes. The metal frame that you keep talking about is a metal sheet. And Buck directly hit is instead of Oliver hitting someone into it and breaking it,

Even Steve with was able to break a metal harness with punches,

Its debatable if Steve broke those chains, but lets assume he did. You said that the chains Oliver snapped were thin and then brought up Steve breaking those chains? I mean, there is not much to debate which chain is thicker. And by far thicker.

and his peer Red Skull could dent his old Shield, and we know that Bucky is quite a few tiers above this.

Denting metal is obviously not above Buck's paygrade. He can obviously do it. Though Oliver's chain feats and padlock feats should obviously be comparable. Especially considering just how casually Oliver does those. IIRC, even Sara snapped a particularly thick chain with a strike from her batons.

A pillar that was relatively hollow, he was only kicking through around 1 inch at best, Bucky's arm punched through multiple inches.

Pillars aren't hollow. Just like walls aren't despite the one Buck punched through looking like it was.

We see the door has multiple thick metal hinges:

After Bucky ragdolls the door, the hinges are no longer there.

I mean, it took Buck more than a dozen hits. Do you think over a dozen hits, all capable of breaking metal with ease won't be able to break it?

Mind you, Oliver doesn't even have to be as good as Buck in striking. As you said, he is obviously more skilled. He will land a lot more hits, so that can definitely make up for it.

Buck, but Ollie is more skilled

@rbt:

Would you say Nyssa is more skilled than Buck? I'm just trying to see how wide you think the skill gap between Buck and Oliver actually is.

No, Bucky's more skilled.

Just their general fights. Steve never looked to be in a bad position. And Buck always had to resort to using his arm to get an upper hand.

That's more about Steve being the better / slightly more skilled fighter, given the effect their hits have on each other I think the intent is clear.

Um, those chains were thicker than anything Buck has broken with his strikes. The metal frame that you keep talking about is a metal sheet. And Buck directly hit is instead of Oliver hitting someone into it and breaking it,

Those chains are not thick at all, they honestly look less thick than 2cm.

And it doesn't even come close to the frame thickness:

And don't forget how he shattered concrete with the same hit.

Its debatable if Steve broke those chains, but lets assume he did. You said that the chains Oliver snapped were thin and then brought up Steve breaking those chains? I mean, there is not much to debate which chain is thicker. And by far thicker.

Not really, It really seems like we're not looking at the same image, I'm sure any second opinion would agree that the chains are of about equal thickness.

Also let's not forget how he ragdolled the bag with the same hit, despite the fact that it should have lost a lot of momentum due to the chain / harness.

Denting metal is obviously not above Buck's paygrade. He can obviously do it. Though Oliver's chain feats and padlock feats should obviously be comparable. Especially considering just how casually Oliver does those.

Comparable to Red Skull, sure, but Bucky is tiers above that.

Pillars aren't hollow. Just like walls aren't despite the one Buck punched through looking like it was.

Why are we generalizing pillars here when we have clear sight of what Bucky and what Oliver broke?

Like I said, the pillars only seemed to have an outer layer, of around 1 inch at absolute best that Oliver broke. With the wall Bucky broke, I don't see how it looked hollow, we see a shot of it after and it's relatively full around the areas where the arm doesn't hit.

I mean, it took Buck more than a dozen hits. Do you think over a dozen hits, all capable of breaking metal with ease won't be able to break it?

No, I don't think hits that break sub 1 inch thick chains can ragdoll a fortified door with numerous metal hinges that are inches thick, or come close with the same amount of hits Bucky did.

Mind you, Oliver doesn't even have to be as good as Buck in striking. As you said, he is obviously more skilled. He will land a lot more hits, so that can definitely make up for it.

I'm aware, but you were the one who chose to debate these two topic, and also completely ignore durability.

@rbt: Btw, is this the vid you were referring to (0:50), really don't see how it suggests similar skill level, I mean he was trained specifically as a swordsman by Ra's.

@subline:

No, Bucky's more skilled.

Based on?

This is a metal sheet frame. I am not sure what you're implying it is, but its not a metal bar, if that's what you're implying.

As for the wall Buck punched through, you can literally see that the thickness is not even an inch or so.

No, I don't think hits that break sub 1 inch thick chains can ragdoll a fortified door with numerous metal hinges that are inches thick, or come close with the same amount of hits Bucky did.

Go ahead. Tell me the reason. If you're making a claim as confidently as this, I'm sure you've crunched all the numbers here. How strong were the hinges? Considering it took Buck over a dozen hits to break those, why can't Oliver hitting it will full force eventually break it as well when he can break chains and padlocks with extreme ease.

I'm aware, but you were the one who chose to debate these two topic, and also completely ignore durability.

You really wanna go down durability debate?

Okay, lets separate this into three parts then. You don't have to reply to everything here. Lets just stick to these three points.

Skill-wise, you claimed that Buck is more skilled than Nyssa. Reasons for that?

Striking wise, you're nitpicking Oliver's feat and straight-up ignoring the same facts about Buck's. I don't care about Cap's striking. As I've said, because they have different serum, there is really no way to scale their striking. Which isn't just a product of strength, but also of speed, skill and technique.

Let's talk durability. You go first.

@subline: And he was trained in sword fighting by Slade. James Bamford straight up says that Oliver uses his bow like a stick or a sword, meaning that Bamford sees no distinction in Oliver's skill when it comes to those. Heck, he has gone ahead to repeat the same thing Oliver has said in the show. That Oliver is the weapon. A bow only serves as increasing his reach(and striking).

Regardless, none of these matters. Even pre Al Sah Him training, Oliver used to go untouched against Nyssa in cqc with his bow.

Tie in comic Ollie one shot a massive 7 foot underground fighting champion, and in one of his fights with Anarky is straight up punches him through the floor. Arrows got the power to hurt Bucky, but to actually drop him he might need to rely on a nerve strike, a choke hold, or BFR.

A bow turns this into a stomp for Ollie rather than a hard fight.

Oliver can’t really put SS tier characters down in h2h and consistently hasn’t been able to in his show. In a random encounter with no prior knowledge and nothing besides a bow, I see the fight going a lot like Oliver’s initial Derek Sampson fight. With prior knowledge the fight would go differently and last longer but Bucky would still come out on top.

@rbt:

Skill-wise, you claimed that Buck is more skilled than Nyssa. Reasons for that?

Steve's more skilled than Loki, who's a peer to Thor skill-wise, Steve's more skilled than Thanos, who's superior to Thor in skill.

And Thor > 3 Asgardians.

Striking wise, you're nitpicking Oliver's feat and straight-up ignoring the same facts about Buck's. I don't care about Cap's striking. As I've said, because they have different serum, there is really no way to scale their striking. Which isn't just a product of strength, but also of speed, skill and technique.

You should care about Cap's striking, you're just going into semantics, while ignoring obvious in universe logic and scaling that clearly shows that Bucky's metal arm hits a lot harder.

I mean, after all, you're trying to tell me that busting sub 1 inch thick chains is on the same level of ragdolling a fortified door with multiple thick metal hinges. I mean, are specifics really needed, just look at the thickness.

Let's talk durability. You go first.

Tanking hits from Cap and Iron Man

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Seriously though, if you're so willing to have these extended debates on battle threads, I don't see how our CaVs are going to be so much longer, like two posts each is even enough.

Bucky.

Bucky evnetually. Oliver cant put him down

Bucky

Bucky wins