Hi, Guts Fanboy here. I have a few things that I feel should be said. Before people continue the debate, I'd like to give a few feats for ol' boy Guts. One of the most notable things I've seen is that he wouldn't be able to take on the Balrog. This is something I disagree with greatly. Not only has he taken on things that are simlar in size (it's stated that they're twice the size of Elves, who are around 6ft? At least that's the range in usual fantasy genres), which means they're around 12-13 feet tall. This is the best image I could find of Durin's Bane in comparison to Gandalf (Who is portrayed by Sir Ian McKellen, who is 5'11.)
He looks to be about twice as tall, which is in line with his race, lore wise. Then you have people like Wyald and Zodd. Wyald is, at least, relative to the Balrog in size, as Guts is stated to be around 6 foot and he looks to be about twice as twice as him, if not more so.
Pre Eclipse Guts, let alone BA Guts is able to defeated him pretty handily, and the only reason he didn'tkill him outright was because he was threatening to tear Griffith in half if he didn't stop attacking him. This gigantic beast of an Apostle was using Griffith as a human shield against a Pre Eclipse Guts due to the fact that he couldn't beat him. Now, note his size. Zodd, in his apostle form, absolutely towers over the both of them, and is likely one of the largest in the series.
Even Pre-Eclipse Guts was able to cleanly slice off one of Zodd's arms with Griffith's help and, post eclipse, pre BA, he was able to put up a decent fight against him, only losing when he tried to save Casca from a bunch of falling rocks and, even after taking a strike from the massive Zodd, he was capable of standing and looked ready to fight him even more. This, I think, gives him a good chance against the Balrog.
Also, I don't know if this is still an argument or not, but Guts has TK resistance feats. Schrieke, who is an extremely powerful mage, was able to get inside of his mind, sure, but his mind was so turbulent and powerful that she was limited to telepathy when he was in the Berserker Armor, and only by seeing Casca was he able to calm down enough for her to be allowed in. So if someone tries to TK him while he's using the Berserker Armor, they may risk succumbing to his mind, as she did.
@thoromdil: Lol the Balrogs were defeated. Durin's Bane was potentially the last of its kind and insinuated to no longer be at its peak, although the statement itself may have referred to the general balrog population at that point which was decimated. It would take a while to dig up the exact words right now, I'd have to even find the book.
When or how exactly was Durins Bane insinuated to be no longer at his peak? Like I said, he is a demigod spirit of fire, he doesn't need to exercise to stay in shape. There is a lot of proof that Balrog from Moria was one of the most powerful Balrogs in history and in perfect shape. Balrogs of the first age were defeated not by humans with gigantic swords, and not by any mortals. They were defeated in a battle of GODS. Valars literally infiltrated Morgoths fortress and killed the Balrogds. It took literal neigh-omnipotent GODS to defeat Balrogs. How the hell is that a factor here?
"he is a demigod and can defeat any mortal within a second"
As for making things up, you're right on que. Yes, it's unlikely for a LOTR mortal to beat it, but no, it cannot beat any mortal in a second lol. While we're on the subject, your 200 ton claim is also a lie, they're only "twice as tall as an elf", which is WAY too small for it to be 200 tons.
Twice as tall as an elf?!?!?? THE HELL are you talking about dude. Moria great halls were described as being HUNDREDS of feet tall rooms, and Balrog Gandalf fought, when he stood up and straightened his wings, he was described as if his stature filled the room all the way to the ceiling, and his wings all the space from one wall to another. Balrogs are GIGANTIC creatures, and even if there were smaller Balrogs in old days, the Balrog Gandalf fought was absolutely homogeneous.
Gandalf the Grey is physically trash
Yeah, he can fight and travel without food or rest for days without getting taxed by it one bit. He survived thousands of years of combat, fought a wizard superior to him, fought 5 nazgul at the same time, fought Sauron himself in Dol Guldur, fought the Witch King, and after all that he never had as much as a scar or a lost eye, or limb (yeah I went there) Gandalf is a beast. Just because an actor playing him in movies can't do backflips and portray Gandalf physicality properly doesn't mean the actual character we're talking about here is trash. We're talking about the lore of the books. Gandalf only had a FORM of a man. He was also a powerful spirit and his physicality was adjusted by his magic to his needs. He has fighting feats far exceeding Guts, even if he doesn't swing a gigantic sword around.
and, in a physical regard, is inferior to Guts in every way except possibly stamina.
Even if Gandalf lacks direct feats of speed and strength that Guts have, his actual fighting feats exceed his like I mentioned, because Gandalf uses magic, not physical strength to achieve most of his victories, and feats of his magic dwarfs anything Guts can do.
Beating Gandalf is not really a feat, either.
Finally back to the real subject.
The feats are falling off a cliff into water, fighting for days, then dying from a magic sword...
None actually really knows how Gandalf killed the Balrog, but my guess is it was magic, not sword, since it's pretty unlikely Gandalf still had it when he fell all the way down the way Jackson portrayed it. We only know they fell to the lowest dungeon of the underworld, then they climbed all the way to the top of highest mountain and battled there until both Balrog and Gandalf died, so it was basically a draw. Gandalf was simply brought back to life, and Balrog wasn't.
none of that is an issue for Guts
Magic is not issue for Guts? Yeah right. This guy has ZERO resistance against magic. He can barely control his own inner demon.
and...what do uk, he has a magic sword too. A much, much better one than Glamdring, one that he can use much, much better than Gandalf could use his. One that specifically kills magical or spiritual beings. Guts can literally one shot with a good hit.
Speculation.
Guts has resisted fire muktiple times with no difficulty, taken multiple blows from creatures that can punch straight through entire castles from basement to the roof, and has damaged a literal god(...hand) that exists outside causality.
He never hurt a god hand member. Guts only destroyed a physical form of slan when he fought her, she was fine in the astral plane. Not to mention Guts suffered the after effects of even trying to hurt her for months.
He has all the feats he needs,
No he doesn't. I'll prove it in a second.
so I care very little for your attempts at passing Balrog descriptions for actual feats.
I'll show you feats in a second too, then.
PS. Guts is replacing Frodo in OP, so Gandalf is actually there too...turning this victory into a curbstomp.
PPS. Nevermind, I was corrected.
Now, here's the feats. Guts CAN NOT defeat Zodd. I hope you agree. They have battled many times before, and Guts always either barely escapes alive, or is lucky enough to have a Skull Knight on his side at the moment who can actually take on Zodd. Either way, Guts CAN NOT defeat Zodd. And since Zodd is pretty similar to Balrog, I will compare them and prove you Balrog is far more powerful then Zodd, and therefore, Guts can't take him down. Easy analogy. Balrog > Zodd > Guts.
So here is comparison of Zodd and Balrog similar feats and abilities:
Round 1: Magical abilities and weapons:
Balrog: Balrog is an immensly powerful being, who uses shadow and flame magic, also referred to as dark fire magic. He has an incredible fear aura that makes all mortals around him paralyzed and unable to move. Entire fellowship of the ring was stunned by this aura and was unable to fight back. Legolas couldn't even shoot one arrow at Balrog, and only Gandalf's command forced them out of the spell and allowed them to keep moving. Balrog's magic also allows him to use the words of power, which can control other beings as long as they do not have enough magical power to challenge him. It was shown when Gandalf and Balrog first fought in the fight at the Gates, when Gandalf casted a word of power at the Hall Gates to not let Balrog pass ;) Balrog felt the spell being casted on the door and fought Gandalf back with the same spell. Although Gandalf's spell won the duel and Gate remained closed (Gandalf's magic was slightly more powerful) it proves Balrog can use words of power as well, and it is extremely effective against any humans or mortals, as they do not have their own magic to block or challenge it, and must obey the spell. Balrog can also conjure his own weapons from dark fire, like his whip and his sword, so if they are ever destroyed, he can remake them in seconds. Balrog also has the ability to fly, and to control both fire and shadow elements around him (he can breathe fire or surround himself with fire shield, he can control the darkness around him to cut off the light from his enemies or to make himself look bigger etc)
Zodd: He doesn't use any magical weapons or any weapons at all to be precise, while he is in his apostle form. The only magical powers Zodd really has is his transformation into apostle and flight. (I count his healing factor into durability section) Since we are talking about a transformed Zodd already, and Balrog also can fly, Zodd has basically no magic powers to challenge Balrog. Ouch.
Balrog >>>> Zod
Round 2: Fighting against massive force:
Balrog:
- When he was awaken by dwarves, he single handedly defeated entire dwarf army of Moria and took over their kingdom, despite it being the biggest and most powerful kingdom of the dwarfs to ever exist. He killed tens of thousands of dwarf fighters, all armed with mithril gear and killed Durin, the ancient king of dwarfs by himself as well.
Zodd:
- He is said to filled entire graveyeards during his battlefield appearances. He was never said to be fighting alone though, he was simply hired as a mercenary to join one or the other side on the field and was a terror in battle. We do not know if he can fight entire armies by himself, so far we never saw him fight more then 20+ warriors at the same time, so that would be his top feat. Hardly comparable to wiping out entire kingdom of fighters armed with magic metal weapons and gear.
Balrog > Zodd
Round 3: Physicality and direct feats of physical skill:
Balrog:
- As he's fought entire dwarf army on his own and didn't lose as much as a horn, obviously he is extremely durable and strong, to the point dwarf weapons can not hurt him at all. When he was falling down the void with Gandalf he survived a fall from possibly miles of heights without any damage, as he was able to get up and fight seconds later. (durability feat) He has massive size, as he is described to fill entire dwarf hall all the way to the ceiling while standing straight with his wings opened and has immense physical strength, as he can swiftly and with great agility control his massive body. During his first encounter against Gandalf (fight at the Gates) he tore open the massive Gates to dwarf hall, which was cursed by Gandalf to not open, and the sheer force of him forcing the Gates to open collapsed both the Hall he was in, and the pathway Gandalf was in. (strength feat) Later on he was described to be capable of casually jumping over the canyon filled with lava trolls were trying to cross by building a bridge over it, proving he is capable of leaping great distances without using his wings, despite his massive size. He is also a skilled fighter, wielding a sword and a whip and using them with great agility. While falling to his doom, was even capable of smacking Gandalf from the bridge by strangling and pulling his leg in a split second, showing how precise and deadly fighter he is, making fast decisions and controlling his weapons perfectly. (fighting skill feat)
Zodd:
- (durability feats) Zodd showed a great amount of durability during his fights against humans in Berserk. In his apostle form, arrows seem to be not more then an inconvenience to him, as they seem to be blocked by his thick fur. However, Zodd still can be hurt by regular metal weapons wielded by humans. Both young Guts and human Griffith were capable of harming him, even cutting off his hand with their swords when they first fought. Although Zodd has a healing factor that helps him heal superficial wounds and even reattach lost limbs, it does have it's limits, especially when fighting against powerful beings using magic (for example, he wasn't able to recover his lost horn after god-hand Griffith cut it off). Zodds durability, although still very impressive, is hardly comparable to Balrogs, if he can get his arm cut off by a human wielding a rapier, while Balrog can't be hurt by mithril weapons of entire armies of dwarfs and can survive a fall into a miles deep pit without a scratch. Balrog also wields powerful magic which I'll explain later on, which makes Zodd's healing factor a "non-factor" ;)
(strengt feats) surprisingly, Zodd's strength greatly varies from appearance to appearance. Sometimes he seems to be a casual 20 tonner (for example, when he broke through a castle walls and flew through the castle ceiling). Sometimes he will be seen fighting on par with Guts, who although peak human and massively strong, is still human. Anyway's Zodd's top strength feat, throwing people around aside, would be him punching through castle walls quite casually. However, this still can not be compared to collapsing an dwarf hall by pulling a door with one hand, which Balrog did when he first faced Gandalf.
(fighting skill feat) Zodd is an amazing fighter in his human form, however, in his apostle form that we are specifically talking about here, he doesn't use any weapons, but rather fights with his claws like a beast, tanking most of the damage like incoming arrows with his own durable body or blocking it with horns. In a fight of Balrog vs Zodd in apostle form, Balrog would be using weapons like his sword and whip, while Zodd would be using his claws, which would result in Balrog absolutely outclassing Zodd with his superior range and damage his weapons can cause.
Balrog > Zodd
There you go dude, I hope that's enough of an evidence for you. Zodd is basically a diet Balrog. Smaller, weaker, and without massive magic boosts. And Guts still can't beat him. Yeah. So much for Guts clearing Lotr. Like I said, he stops at Moria. That's all there is to it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Guts is super-sonic. Human-form Zodd can match him. All your hyperbole is meaningless before actual facts. Even if a Balrog was bigger than Zodd, it's meaningless. Zodd has better actual feats, more actual combative skill, the ability to reattach and heal his limbs, and strong enough that he could literally bulldoze through a castle's structure if he so chose.
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