@jashro44: And are you keeping up with this jashro? I rarely get the chance to talk about Ocelot, it's always Snake or Big Boss, so this is a fun one.
Gunslinger Free-For-All
@nickzambuto: Alright lets keep this going a bit longer mate. I discuss speed, and we are at a impasse, lets discuss aim. Roland never miss a shot as of entering his 20s. He has consistently tag super beings, and made shots in impossible odds.
Roland here has a friend using binoculars to see the enemy who by scale of the pictures is more than 500 yards away. Its foggy as hell too. Yat Roland with no binoculars takes the shot from the distance they are at, and hit a head shot on a guy who is at the base of that tower. no one sees Roland make the shot even though there is a small army station around the area.
Here again Roland makes a shot from what is drawn as a easy 100 yards away in heavy smoke conditions. He makes the shot with no issues, and runs to the area. Its not like he was next store with a clear day shot. Even his fellow posse is asking him to wait for the wind to blow the smoke away to make their own shots, and they are all proven marksmen in the first 5 graphic novels as well.
Roland spends a full day shooting down exploding Harry potter Snitches.
Yes, snitches that move and act like the ones from the Harry Potter Movies and Books.
Roland spends a full day with no food or water shooting down these things sent to attack him by 2s-4s at a time out of the air. As anyone who knows about these things, they move, zig zag, and are hard to see little balls. Yet Roland shot down 2 to 4 at a time these things trying to blow him up. All the while having a massive Migraine from being so close to the Dark Tower itself.
Thats impressive. If thats not enough how about the Battle of Tull.
Alot to read, but here is the quick skinny. Roland tries his best to hold back, and reason with a entire town of people trying to kill him. Read the last two scans for the important part.
Roland kills 58 people trying to mob him with one shot each. All the while dodging attacks, thrown objects, and reasoning with said people.
Roland accurately making head shot on Mutants trying to kill Jake. The insane thing is this scenario is near pitch black, and Roland even blinds himself from the flash of his own pistols, but still never misses a head shot.
Hell, if that was not enough, he made one shot kills on Invisible Not Men. The Not Men use future tech to turn perfect invisible, and train as military hit men for the Crimson King.
In his first encounter with them, and takes out one of them out handily by determining their position.
In his second encounter with them, he takes out a small force of them. Heavily armed.
Still not enough is this insane feat.
Roland hits multiple men with a single bullets of his own guns while being shot to hell himself in a blind rage.
Now Ocelot have good trick shot feats, but never miss? Nope. Make impossible shots on targets? Nope. So in this way Roland is also superior.
@oceanmaster21:Damn have not seen you forever mate.
@lunacyde said:
@sirfizzwhizz: Yeah. As is I think Roland definitely has the edge but several others are capable as well.
WHOOT WHOOT.
@oceanmaster21 said:
@sirfizzwhizz: you missed me bro:)
Just Saying.
I suppose I should throw my hat in this. :)
First off, I'm not going to tell anyone here that they are wrong, because the characters in question in this are some of my faves, and I know you two are on point with this stuff. I agree with everything both of you have said so far, so I'm not necessarily going to debate that anything said so far is incorrect, I just want to show why Hex should be considered one of the fastest and most accurate gun slingers in fiction. I might mention Man With No Name a little too, because I can't resist. I like these kind of characters a lot.
As for Hex's only feat in question so far with the snake, I don't think this should be looked at as anything but superhuman gunslinging. It's not his most impressive feat, but I personally love it because of the context.
Hex was completely unconscious for several hours. He awakes, to find a snake in mid strike, yet he has the conscious ability and speed to un-holster his gun, draw, and kill the snake.
Had this been just a normal draw and shoot a snake feat, then it would not even be wort mentioning with the hundreds of speed feats Hex has, but the fact that he did it while waking from unconsciousness is what impresses me, and the fact that the snake was only inches from him, but he is fast enough to draw and shoot in that fraction of a fraction of a second.
Like I said though, Hex has such a history with speed feats, You could basically throw a dart at my pile of Hex comics and find a page with him outdrawing a group of enemies (but if you threw darts at my Hex comics there would be hell to pay!). Here's a said random issue, where Hex is facing several enemies, who all have their guns drawn, while Hex's guns are still holstered.
That's 6 enemies he takes down, all of them with their guns drawn while Hex's are still holstered, and not a single one of them even gets a shot off.
Here's an example of him in a quickdraw situation against 4 enemies.
The four he kills never even get their hands to their guns before Hex brings them down.
Even when people have their guns drawn on his back and he's holstered, he's able to turn, un-holster, draw, and shoot, faster then it takes a normal human to pull a trigger.
But as Hex says all the time when people ask him how he's able to shoot so fast. "It aint all 'bout speed." Hex is also one of the most accurate marksman in all of fiction, with both of his hands, and his accuracy is seen during his quick draw shots as well.
For example, when a bear attacks his camp site while he's distracted:
He quick draws and fires simultaneously with both guns, and shoots both of the eyes out of the bear with single shots at the exact same time. This is one of my favorite feats, because of the level of marksmanship involved. This is beyond what any non superhuman marksman could possibly do. He has two targets he is aiming at, and fires at both at the same time, with two different guns. The complexity of a shot like this blows my mind. Having to aim one gun with one eye, the other gun with the other eye, at the EXACT SAME TIME just doesn't seem humanly possible. This is like what Ocelot talks about Quiet being able to use both eyes independently in MGSV. It would be one thing if he was just shooting two targets, like say two human sized targets with two guns at the same time, as every 90's action hero has done this, because it doesn't really take any aiming, just point and shoot from the hip, but to shoot two eyeball sized targets with both hands at the exact same time, is just unreal.
Here's some more eyeball shooting:
He shoots one enemy through the heart with his right hand, and then leaps into the air, and while in mid leap, fires with his left hand, and snipes his other enemy's eye ball. He does loves shooting eye balls.
I could go on all day with Hex (I've only taken scans from his first few issues of his Palmiatti run so far, and there is a LOT more from him like this), and would love to if you guys want to keep a conversation going. Not enough people on CV care about gunslingers and cowboys.
I would like to talk about the MWNN for a minute though, because I think he deserves some attention in this discussion. Without him, we wouldn't have a Roland Deschain after all, as he was the biggest influence for Roland's character.
If MWNN didn't invent quickdraw cinematics, he certainly made them into the legendary battles they are now. I'm not great with video editing stuff, but I put a little video from his first movie together, A fistfull of dollars, that only shows his quickdraw stuff.
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0-0:22 - Quickdraws on four men casually. He even lights up a stogey before putting on a clinic, and brings them all down before they even come close to touching their own guns.
1:00-1:10 - Quickdraw contest against 4 men, who also do not even come close to touching their guns.
And then there is this awesome scene, where he gets pissed off about people offending his horse. Lol
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He allows all four of the horse offenders to draw their guns first. He does this to establish himself as the top dog in the town, because he knows his speed is untouchable. Even though the others all draw their guns first, his speed is so fast that when he draws, he's still able to shoot all for of them before they even come close to pointing a gun at him. Crazy fast.
He's known for proving his point with displays like this. For example, when surrounded by enemy soldiers who are taking him "prisoner", he just reminds them that they can't hold a candle to what he can do if he chooses.
He shoots the guns out of the soldiers hands around him before they can do anything but stare dumbfounded.
Even with his hands tied together, his speed is amazing.
MWNN has his hands tied behind his back, and he makes a reach for a gun. He gets it of course, and shoots down one of the soldiers. Another soldier fires back at MWNN with perfect accuracy, but MWNN is something of a bullet timer, or at least a very capable aim dodger, and leans his head to the side lining up the soldiers shot to kill one of his own. Pretty awesome speed, reaction time, and tactics there, and then he goes on to do what he always does and kill them all.
It goes without saying that MWNN is ridiculously fast, but the only thing that might be more impressive is his aim. He has never once missed a shot. Not once. Even when facing a legendary sniper known as "The Ghost", MWNN proves to be the better sniper, even though he can't even SEE the sniper he is up against.
The Ghost is up on a hill with all of the tactical advantages of cover, elevation, and a clear shot. MWNN has the exact opposite, he has almost no cover, he is a long ways away from his target and has a loss of elevation, and he can't even see the Ghost.
The only thing MWNN has to base his sniper shot off of, is the flash of the Ghost's gun as he snipes one of the soldiers near MWNN. MWNN just aims at the spot he remembered the flash coming from, and shoots.
In the comic, the only reason we know MWNN must have hit his target, is because the Ghost stops slaughtering everyone around him. A few pages later, MWNN goes to confirm his shot, because remember, he couldn't even see Ghost before taking the shot.
Not only does MWNN land his shot on the Ghost, but it's a head shot right between the eyes. It couldn't have been a more perfect shot, and it was all based off of a muzzle flash from about an incredibly long distance on top of a cliff.
So ya, let's keep this discussion going if you guys are up for it.
@sirfizzwhizz said:
@nickzambuto: @tparks: bring your A game.
It's bee a while since I've been through my Hex stuff, so how about a solid B?
Anyways, I would like to show that Hex is more then a one trick pony. He does a lot more then just shooting fast and accurate. He has a lot of ways to kill, and he can get creative when inspired. To keep things simple for now, I just want to show some of his other weapons, like his tomahawk.
What happens when guns jam, or run out of ammo. Probably not a big concern for this matchup, but Hex is not limited to just gun play. He shows impressive speed no matter what he's dealing death with, like in the scan above, where he shows he's fast enough to throw a tomahawk faster then his enemy can pick up a gun.
If this does move into close range, a tomahawk isn't a bad weapon to hold onto, when in the hands of someone like Hex who was raised to tomahawk fight by the native american tribe he spent his later parts of his childhood living with. But even when he doesn't have his tomahawk, Hex is a beast in melee.
Take this next scene, where Hex goes into a bloodlust. He drops the whole gunslinging attitude, and takes things a bit more personal.
Even while in a rage, Hex shows some decent skill ingrained from his life of training. When attacked from behind with a knife, he throws a martial arts style palm strike for a one hit KO.
In his bloodlust, he doesn't see a man draw and fire on him, and he takes a bullet to the torso, and is completely oblivious to the damage it does. He even proceeds to speed blitz the gunman with nothing but a water pale, before the gunman can fire a second shot.
There is a "witch" being burned at the stake, which is part of why Hex is in a bloodlust, and he dives, and his strength allows him to take the stake down with a tackle. Sure it was burning, but it's still impressive IMO.
Immediately upon standing up, he has a bow drawn on him. All that the bowman needs to do is let the arrow fly, but Hex speed blitzes him as well, before he can simply let the arrow fly. He again shows immense strength, tossing the bowman to the side a very long distance like he is near weightless.
He finally gets a gun, kicks a door in, only to find the room full of people already aiming at him. Hex beats everyone to the shot (like always), knocks a shotgun to the side, and uses his first victim as a bullet shield. He then uses the corpse shield as a projectile weapon, and tosses the body at the rest of the gunman.
He finally comes on the nun who started this entire engagement. She has a shotgun drawn on him, from across the room. Old lady or not, all she has to do is pull the trigger, which should be fast enough to shoot anyone from across the room, but Hex is not just anyone. He speed blitzes yet again, and smacks the gun out of her hands and her to the ground. He shows his strength again, by picking up the nun, and throwing her through the window.
I love this little showing of rage from Hex. He usually is calm at all times, pissed off always, but doesn't really show anything besides a scowl.
Even while in all out rage mode though, Hex shows a little skill. It's wreckless, but not necessarily unskilled. When he's not a testosterone fueled bull in a china shop, and is fighting like his normal pissed off, but collected, self, he shows a great deal more skill then even this.
Like this scene for example, where a group of attackers take Hex on at his camp site, thinking they can take him by surprise.
People always see Hex in the cowboy getup, and assume he's a brawler at best. Don't let looks deceive you. This display of CQC would have Ocelot nod his head in respect.
While sitting at his camp, he is taking a drag off his cigarette with one hand, when the first attack comes in from behind him with a knife. He doesn't even turn his head, he just reaches back, and grabs the arm, turns the wrist causing the knife to drop, turns while still holding the wrist, and puts a bullet through his head. That is CQC straight out of the MGS playbook.
Nothing overly fancy, just a short technical hand movement to disarm and quickly put down his attacker, but instead of slamming his opponent, he just ops for a bullet to the head instead, and that's just attacker one.
He then leaps to the side, dodging 10 bullets, while shooting a kill shot on another attacker with a knife at the same time.
Immediately after, he fires two quick shots, gets two quick kills, and then puts his attention to the nearest attacker.
He uses his attackers momentum, and steps to the side, and uses one hand to smash his attackers head into the rocks. This is another CQC - like movement, that would not look out of place right next to the other MGS choreography.
But instead of just the head slam, he at the same time deals with another enemy at range, and is using his opposite hand that is not involved in the slam, to shoot a bullet through the neck of an enemy at a range, while not even needing to look at where he is aiming.
Immediately after this, another larger attacker swings a knife from above him, while another attacker dives for his legs. This is your basic, "I'll take him high, you take him low technique" trying to leave him no room to avoid the attack, but Hex does so perfectly. Jonah Hex displays some more serious MGS like CQC here, by sidestepping the low tackle, while also bringing his head and torso turned at an angle to step below the knife swing, allowing his gun hand to drop low to score a head shot, while his other arm pushes the attackers knife arm through the attack with a CWC/Judo like move of using his opponenets momentum against him to open up the head shot, while also keeping his distance from the attacker below him. Kind of like this, but just add a gun in one hand, and him avoiding an attacker below him.
He then stands, to fire the kill shot into the guy who was able to do nothing but eat dirt in his useless tackle.
It's still not over though, as someone brings a knife from behind Hex's neck to his throat. At the same time, another attacker in front of him starts to fire on Hex. Hex's speed allows him to duck the shot, forcing the bullet to miss his head but kill the knifeman behind him. This frees up Hex to do what he does best, and gun down the remaining three, all while avoiding more bullets.
The last attacker, who is left without a prayer, just stares dumbfounded, and Hex speedblitzes to have his gun on his head before he can even take a step to move.
That's a lot of small, technical movements, of using his attackers movements against them with nothing but quick movements of his hands and torso to force his attackers bodies off balance. If you were to put all of this together, it wouldn't look all that dissimilar to this:
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The biggest difference is, that there was more gun play involved. Hex didn't do anything like use his knee joint as a chokehold or anything, but the display of skill he displays here is a lot different I believe then most comic action sequences, that are mostly just overly acrobatic flashy fights. This is no non-sense skill, where not a single movement is wasted effort. Every inch he moved was done so with great purpose to easily take out a group of enemies that should have been large enough to overwhelm him with surprise in close quarters.
While he may not be a CQC expert on the levels of MGS characters, the movements he displays are shockingly similar IMO, and the use of his gun while performing these moves makes him all the more dangerous in a close quarters fight.
This is why I say don't let the civil war cowboy getup lead you to any inaccurate assumptions of his combat prowess; he can perform highly technical combat at levels people would normally assume would only come from Far Eastern countries of this time, or modern times.
And before anyone asks, I do NOT think Hex would win in a CQC matchup with any MGS characters talented in CQC, this was just a convenient comparison to use for this thread, since too many people just see the stereotypical "cowboys and indians fight", and expect a brawl, and don't really pay attention to the amazing skill being displayed.
Let's keep this going though fellas. What have you got?!
Oh ya, he's also an even match up for Superman.
@sirfizzwhizz said:
@tparks: I have some Close Combat for Roland myself later.
@g-dude said:
Now this is a fight I would love to see! The biggest baddest battle in the west.
I'll have to go with the MWNN because he always has something up his sleeve. In the end he'll most likely be the only standing thanks to his trusty bullet proof plate under his poncho :D
Roland Deschain shoots explosive sneetches out of the air....
And each gunslinger from a very young age was disciplined harshly until they earn their title as a gunslinger. When Roland was only a young teenager he, in order to become a gunslinger, needed to beat his teacher in a fight. And if Roland lost he would automatically be exiled.
as you can gather they didn't hold back at all (pupil or teacher)
The fact Roland was always stated, and shown to be faster than Eddie ever was as Cuthbert or Eddie lifetimes show this as well. Eddie did most of the shooting that one feat,but so what when Roland was letting him. Not to mention Roland was near twice Eddie's age, and had bad arthritis at that point. Doubt he want to push himself if he did not need too, and he knew Eddie had it. The worst feat is the dog feat, and even that is a good feat due to Roland being near death.
Real quick, actually I think we had some miscommunication here. I know Roland is way faster than Eddie, you posted the scan to prove it. I was just saying, that one scene of killing Flathearty and his men is by far the best feat you've posted yet, so it's kind of ironic how Eddie did most of the work. But that doesn't matter, it's actually better this way because Roland is at least twice as fast as Eddie.
My original point, that we can't assume Eddie and his alternate universe counterpart have the same skills so therefore being faster than Eddie isn't impressive, was uninformed on my part. I wrote that before I got to the excerpt of Eddie killing most of Flathearty's men, before that I assumed Eddie was featless and you were relying on the fact that he's Cuthbert's counterpart. So I acknolwedge that Eddie is insanely skilled and Roland is at least twice as fast as him. I was saying that if Roland and Eddie have more feats like that, I might have to reconsider Ocelot's victory here.
However, one really good scene isn't enough to make Roland as fast as Ocelot, when Ocelot moves at these impossible speeds much more consistently. I've only seen one instance of Roland moving as fast as Ocelot does all the time, so as of now Shalashaska is still the king of the draw.
Roland has quick draw, and reload and fire against faster than Vampires who are above human can react. Roland has moved faster than 30th Century Robots can react at times in the Wolves of Calla novel. Also, to be honest, Ocelot has never face half the threats Roland has. Grandfather Vampires, Powerful Demons, 30th Century Robots built in a age where multiverse hopping was the norm, powerful magic users, and super human mutants as the norm. This was his daily routine while half starved, poison, sick, aged, or whatever half the time. So forgive me if I am not going to accept Ocelot over Roland.
This is a good point, however there's such a thing called 'quality over quantity'. Ocelot isn't the playable character in any Metal Gear games so he doesn't have the chance to fight against a plethora of metas and supernaturals like Solid Snake and Big Boss do. However, he does have one scene in MGS3, which serves absolutely no purpose to the narrative, and was seemingly thrown in just for the sake of showing Ocelot being a badass. The scene isn't an entire fight and ends almost as soon as it begins, but it proves without a shadow of doubt that Ocelot is indeed capable of totally owning almost any superhuman with minimal effort, due to his supreme intellect in conjunction with gunslinging skills. Let me break it down:
Colonel Volgin is still one of the most powerful characters in the Metal Gear franchise. First of all he was the strategic operations commander of GRU and described by Professor Sokolov as a "mastermind" and a "dangerous and fearsome man" by Major Zero. His backstory states that he is notorious for his "accomplishments" in anti-guerilla operations in the Ukraine and the Baltic states, and was instrumental in putting down the 1953 insurrection in East Germany and the 1956 uprising in Hungary. He was almost singlehandedly responsible for "disposing of" over 100,000 anti-Communists, and in the game proper he was on the verge of wiping out the United States of America and taking control of the entire Soviet Union by ousting Nikita Khrushchev and installing Leonid Brezhnev and Alexei Kosygin as his puppets.
All of this boring history stuff tells us that Volgin was something of a strategic genius in his own right, and on top of that possessed superhuman strength, speed, endurance, and friggin lightning powers. Volgin was an overwhelming foe, particularly the lightning powers, he was stomped by Naked Snake in close quarters but nearly overwhelmed him in an all-out battle because of his control over electricity. Snake won in the end, but Volgin exhausted him more than any other opponent he would ever face.
Volgin was also the Kryptonite to any gunslinger because he was constantly emanating an electric charge of 10 million volts, which automatically repelled all bullets. It's possible to shoot him while he's powered down, but forcing Volgin to power down isn't simple for obvious reasons, so in canon Naked Snake beat him using mostly CQC.
After Ocelot became insubordinate, Volgin targeted HIM with a bolt of lightning instead, and in just a single maneuver Ocelot used every single one of Volgin's advantages against him. The bolt was already in motion, but before it could reach him, Ocelot quickdrawed his revolver and emptied the entire chamber backinto the blast.
Bullets are made of lead. Lead is metal.
Instead of simply dodging, Ocelot took advantage of the lightning's conductivity and drew it away from himself, thus briefly draining Volgin in the process and leaving him completely vulnerable. A brilliant play on Ocelot's part, and if he were so inclined, he very easily could have killed Volgin off himself right then and there. But it was Snake's fight, so after making sure everybody knew how cool he was he just walked away.
There's been a lot of debate on exactly how fast Volgin's lightning actually is. The common rebuttal is that "it's not natural lightning" which is stupid for several reasons. First of all, yes it is natural, it comes from Volgin's own biological body, that makes it naturally formed. Secondly, forget the word 'lightning.' At its purest, this is just electricity, and electricity travels through the atmosphere at a constant speed.
The feat is stupidly OP because Ocelot's bullets should not have even had time to leave the barrel, yet he makes it work anyway because he is THAT over the top. Ocelot just defied basic logic through his sheer gunslinging skills. Kojima intended for him to be THAT impossibly fast.
Even in the worst case, Volgin's lightning has always been portrayed as moving at instantaneous speeds, as proven in the torture scene if we take things frame by frame.
That is huge speed. Think about it, the lightning is never shown actually traveling. In the frame right before it connects with the target, it hasn't been fired yet. It is only ever shown actually in travel, in the scene where we see it from Ocelot's perspective. So clearly Kojima was thinking that this lightning Volgin expels shouldn't be slow. I think hypersonic would be a reasonable settlement.
This is an absolutely remarkable combination of strategic thinking and gunfighter skill Ocelot displayed. Similarly, his dodging the Cyborg Ninja was a remarkable display of situational awareness and hand speed, and I don't think we should doubt that Ocelot could have killed her in that moment had he chosen. And finally, Ocelot killing Fortune was a remarkable display of planning, stealth, and draw speed as he was able to steal her forcefield device away from her of-screen without anybody noticing and plant it on himself, thus stealing her powers before killing her. Fortune is one of the only two characters in the entire Metal Gear history to ever defeat Solid Snake in a straight up fight fair and square, that's how powerful she was, yet Ocelot beat her. Who was the second character to beat Solid Snake?... It was Ocelot.
So even though Roland seems to fight monsters like vampires and such more often than Ocelot does, I disagree with your notion that Ocelot would actually beunable to fight such monsters.
The fact is the game scenes do not paint that fast of a draw. Or speed.
Well come on man you should know that's not fair. Some scenes are obviously played in a sense of hyper-awareness, like Ocelot gunning down the Gurlukovich soldiers. That isn't the ACTUAL speed Ocelot is moving at.
Ocelot's firing speed is actually shown in real-time in a cutscene from MGS3, and it's indistinguishable from an automatic.
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The way I see it, Roland has a lot of statements and hype going for him. "He's blindingly fast!" "Faster than a streak of blue summer lightning!" Well Ocelot is the only guy here who legitimately IS faster than a streak of blue lightning, and he's also moved his hand faster than a sword that can move faster than mach 2 bullets AND beat a superhuman on the draw, when she already had her rifle ready and aimed. @tparks Jonah Hex seems to gun down squads of enemies before they can react just like Ocelot did to the Gurlukovich soldiers, but he hasn't been able to do the other things Ocelot does, and it seems like Roland only has one draw feat on the level of either of them, which is completely dependent on the feat of a separate character (Eddie)! That said Roland clearly does have the greatest accuracy here, I won't even touch that post of accuracy feats Fizz because they are all phenomenal and Ocelot doesn't have a counter for any of them.
But the thing is, the characters aren't having target practice against dart boards here. This is an old fashioned, rough n' tough gunslinging quickdraw showdown at high noon we're talking about, meaning speed is the deciding factor.
So tell me, if Ocelot is the first person here who will draw his gun, and he's also the only person here who's proven he can dodge bullets and survive prolonged gunfights against other master marksman... why wouldn't Ocelot win?
Never mind every other advantage Ocelot has. He is far and above the most intelligent fighter here, he has stealth on his side, and he can feasibly defeat everybody else here all at once by himself in CQC. Ocelot is just the most skilled fighter here guys, accept it.
@nickzambuto: "So tell me, if Ocelot is the first person here who will draw his gun, and he's also the only person here who's proven he can dodge bullets and survive prolonged gunfights against other master marksman... why wouldn't Ocelot win?"
I wouldn't say only, entirely....MWNN is pretty quick also and has proven his accuracy as well
Real quick, actually I think we had some miscommunication here. I know Roland is way faster than Eddie, you posted the scan to prove it. I was just saying, that one scene of killing Flathearty and his men is by far the best feat you've posted yet, so it's kind of ironic how Eddie did most of the work. But that doesn't matter, it's actually better this way because Roland is at least twice as fast as Eddie.
My original point, that we can't assume Eddie and his alternate universe counterpart have the same skills so therefore being faster than Eddie isn't impressive, was uninformed on my part. I wrote that before I got to the excerpt of Eddie killing most of Flathearty's men, before that I assumed Eddie was featless and you were relying on the fact that he's Cuthbert's counterpart. So I acknolwedge that Eddie is insanely skilled and Roland is at least twice as fast as him. I was saying that if Roland and Eddie have more feats like that, I might have to reconsider Ocelot's victory here.
However, one really good scene isn't enough to make Roland as fast as Ocelot, when Ocelot moves at these impossible speeds much more consistently. I've only seen one instance of Roland moving as fast as Ocelot does all the time, so as of now Shalashaska is still the king of the draw.
I think Roland showed several "good scenes", and comparable. The Bats, the states consistently showngs faster than eye sight, as fast as a bullet fired and its travel time, reacting faster than high tech machines can react, ect. So yes, I think your missing the point of several good scenes that more than compare to any speed draw Ocelot has.
There is also the fact in the novels, Roland states Eddie has everything Cuthbert has. The Stephen King Novels are not like Marvel Universe multiverse where characters are different than the other. In the stephen King Universe, the other universe characters connected by Ka are all the same as the rest. Only thing different is the experiences and choices they made. The reflexes, in grain ability of Cuthbert, and skill Eddie possess are all thanks to being a natural born Gunslinger that Roland states time and again is exactly like Cuthbert. So in short, they are comparable becuase the Novels several times says they are.
This is a good point, however there's such a thing called 'quality over quantity'. Ocelot isn't the playable character in any Metal Gear games so he doesn't have the chance to fight against a plethora of metas and supernaturals like Solid Snake and Big Boss do. However, he does have one scene in MGS3, which serves absolutely no purpose to the narrative, and was seemingly thrown in just for the sake of showing Ocelot being a badass. The scene isn't an entire fight and ends almost as soon as it begins, but it proves without a shadow of doubt that Ocelot is indeed capable of totally owning almost any superhuman with minimal effort, due to his supreme intellect in conjunction with gunslinging skills. Let me break it down:
I love Ocelot, and you know this, however, I find Ocelot better as a CQC fighter than Marksmen. I said it. Ocelot best feats is matching Big Boss in CQC, and Snake as well in CQC. That is mother freaking impressive. his ability to tag people? No. Its not that good. Sorry. He fails in a whole shoot out to tag Snake. He has failed to tag Boss and Eva multiple times. Now I know you, you will try to defend their ability to dodge and shit, but lets face it mate, being on a motorcycle and traveling down a straight path relatively is not defend able my friend. Not saying Ocelot is not a Trick Shot master, he is. not saying he is not consider maybe as good as the best human marksmen in "real life" I am sure he is. He is not Superhuman accurate. That is a fact. Roland is. He tags things that humans cannot simply tag, and has NEVER MISSED a target after the battle of Jericho Hill.
I am not one tryig to low ball Revolver, as Ocelot is IMO a top fictional universe fighter, and manipulator than he is a marksmen. His Marksmen skills are still top not for standards, just not Deadshot, Roland, or Bullseye level mate. Ocelot is more Hawkeye, or Green Arrow level which is damn good. Still misses though.
Colonel Volgin is still one of the most powerful characters in the Metal Gear franchise. First of all he was the strategic operations commander of GRU and described by Professor Sokolov as a "mastermind" and a "dangerous and fearsome man" by Major Zero. His backstory states that he is notorious for his "accomplishments" in anti-guerilla operations in the Ukraine and the Baltic states, and was instrumental in putting down the 1953 insurrection in East Germany and the 1956 uprising in Hungary. He was almost singlehandedly responsible for "disposing of" over 100,000 anti-Communists, and in the game proper he was on the verge of wiping out the United States of America and taking control of the entire Soviet Union by ousting Nikita Khrushchev and installing Leonid Brezhnev and Alexei Kosygin as his puppets.
All of this boring history stuff tells us that Volgin was something of a strategic genius in his own right, and on top of that possessed superhuman strength, speed, endurance, and friggin lightning powers. Volgin was an overwhelming foe, particularly the lightning powers, he was stomped by Naked Snake in close quarters but nearly overwhelmed him in an all-out battle because of his control over electricity. Snake won in the end, but Volgin exhausted him more than any other opponent he would ever face.
Volgin was also the Kryptonite to any gunslinger because he was constantly emanating an electric charge of 10 million volts, which automatically repelled all bullets. It's possible to shoot him while he's powered down, but forcing Volgin to power down isn't simple for obvious reasons, so in canon Naked Snake beat him using mostly CQC.
After Ocelot became insubordinate, Volgin targeted HIM with a bolt of lightning instead, and in just a single maneuver Ocelot used every single one of Volgin's advantages against him. The bolt was already in motion, but before it could reach him, Ocelot quickdrawed his revolver and emptied the entire chamber backinto the blast.
Bullets are made of lead. Lead is metal.
Instead of simply dodging, Ocelot took advantage of the lightning's conductivity and drew it away from himself, thus briefly draining Volgin in the process and leaving him completely vulnerable. A brilliant play on Ocelot's part, and if he were so inclined, he very easily could have killed Volgin off himself right then and there. But it was Snake's fight, so after making sure everybody knew how cool he was he just walked away.
There's been a lot of debate on exactly how fast Volgin's lightning actually is. The common rebuttal is that "it's not natural lightning" which is stupid for several reasons. First of all, yes it is natural, it comes from Volgin's own biological body, that makes it naturally formed. Secondly, forget the word 'lightning.' At its purest, this is just electricity, and electricity travels through the atmosphere at a constant speed.
Here is the problem, we know for a fact that was not "Lightning" but a undefined Electricity attack. Lightning and Electricity are not the same mate. Lightning has more to it than generated Electricity unleashed which is why Lightning is faster.This feat as been dissected, and debunk for years now. Is the speed super impressive? yes, it is easily Ocelot's highest end showing. Again however, it is a single high end that does not match up the rest of the feats at all. So there must been either more context to the feat, or the writer just wanted to do something cool in a PIS showing. The fact is I would not bring this feat as proof of Lightning speed anymore than i would state Roland is Lightning Speed due to the novel stating "as fast as summer blue lightning" which is a type of lightning bolt. Its just proof of their insane speeds, not quantifiable speeds.
The feat is stupidly OP because Ocelot's bullets should not have even had time to leave the barrel, yet he makes it work anyway because he is THAT over the top. Ocelot just defied basic logic through his sheer gunslinging skills. Kojima intended for him to be THAT impossibly fast.
Its as impossible fast as Rland and Eddie able to fire, reload and fire again in a split second. Whats your point? Nothing about Ocelot is faster. Your fastest feat matches the Novels stated fastest feat. Still even. You could say my stated lightning feat is hyperbole, and you be right, but then you should admit you "Lightning" feat for Ocelot is PIS. Seriously, why are we going down this road lol?
Even in the worst case, Volgin's lightning has always been portrayed as moving at instantaneous speeds, as proven in the torture scene if we take things frame by frame.
That is huge speed. Think about it, the lightning is never shown actually traveling. In the frame right before it connects with the target, it hasn't been fired yet. It is only ever shown actually in travel, in the scene where we see it from Ocelot's perspective. So clearly Kojima was thinking that this lightning Volgin expels shouldn't be slow. I think hypersonic would be a reasonable settlement.
All this shows mate is the electricity is faster than 400 FPS, which is the rough time frame of video footage for the human eye. That is not fast of that is how we are judging it, if we like to get technical. It could be moving lightning to speed of sound. It does not prove anything.
This is an absolutely remarkable combination of strategic thinking and gunfighter skill Ocelot displayed. Similarly, his dodging the Cyborg Ninja was a remarkable display of situational awareness and hand speed, and I don't think we should doubt that Ocelot could have killed her in that moment had he chosen. And finally, Ocelot killing Fortune was a remarkable display of planning, stealth, and draw speed as he was able to steal her forcefield device away from her of-screen without anybody noticing and plant it on himself, thus stealing her powers before killing her. Fortune is one of the only two characters in the entire Metal Gear history to ever defeat Solid Snake in a straight up fight fair and square, that's how powerful she was, yet Ocelot beat her. Who was the second character to beat Solid Snake?... It was Ocelot.
So what are you saying here? Stealing the device from Fortune through simple sleight of hand is speed now? Dodging the Cyborg Ninja is great, but still that is Solid Snake, even human Raiden level at best, and more due to his CQC skill than quick draw ability. Fortune herself was never shown any better than Solid or Raiden in speed. Though it was impressive. Only Reason Fortune beat Snake was due to the fact all we see is Snake firing on her, and her force field blocked it all. We have no clue if she beat Snake in hand in hand, or Snake simply allowed himself to be taken to get to Raiden quicker. We do not know mate.
So even though Roland seems to fight monsters like vampires and such more often than Ocelot does, I disagree with your notion that Ocelot would actually beunable to fight such monsters.
I think Ocelot can compete for sure in Roland's world, just that he misses targets, and is not faster than Roland at all.
Well come on man you should know that's not fair. Some scenes are obviously played in a sense of hyper-awareness, like Ocelot gunning down the Gurlukovich soldiers. That isn't the ACTUAL speed Ocelot is moving at.
Ocelot's firing speed is actually shown in real-time in a cutscene from MGS3, and it's indistinguishable from an automatic.
Fair enough, but at the same time the Comics and Novels show clear evidence of speed all the time. Something to consider IMO.
The way I see it, Roland has a lot of statements and hype going for him. "He's blindingly fast!" "Faster than a streak of blue summer lightning!" Well Ocelot is the only guy here who legitimately IS faster than a streak of blue lightning,
and he's also moved his hand faster than a sword that can move faster than mach 2 bullets AND beat a superhuman on the draw, when she already had her rifle ready and aimed.
You mean the same sword that blocks every shot Ocelot makes at it? Same Ocelot who is so fast that his hand was cut off to begin with.
This super speed of Ocelot vs the Ninja? Lets not at all compare him to Grey Fox, just dont Nick.
Never mind every other advantage Ocelot has. He is far and above the most intelligent fighter here, he has stealth on his side, and he can feasibly defeat everybody else here all at once by himself in CQC. Ocelot is just the most skilled fighter here guys, accept it.
I challenge this thought too mate. Ocelot has never used stealth on the same level as Snake or Boss at all. However Roland has stealthed animals, Vampires, Ta Heen (Animal men with super senses), and more. Roland also has insane intellegence mate. He has been train not only in wild west stuff, but is a proven General who has beaten a army of Cybernetic Andorids design for war with nothing more than his small group cattle town folk, couple of guns, and some razor edge throwing discs mate. He has lead a couple year campaign with Cowboys and Wild West tech against a army consisting of WW2 tech soldiers, and super human mutants, and magical monsters all working for Farson. Roland has been trained in the magical arts of the world, and understands the fabric of the multiverse mate. Not for a second are you convincing me Ocelot is smarter or better at stealth than Roland.
Not by a long shot. Ocelot is the most skilled H2H fighter for sure, though Roland is not inept in this area. @tparks I will touch in Roland close combat ability.
Roland is strong enough to break a mans wrist with his grip alone. Strong enough to punch his fist into solid dirt which is not human.
This Wolf is larger than teenager Roland. Whats worse is Roland is in a state of sleep to a degree, not mentally all there. Yet he still naturaly reacts, and over powers the Wolf, breaking its neck in one move.
Roland at the age of 14 takes on Cort. Cort who trains all Gunslingers, and most capable weapon master in Gilead. You know this story. Roland at this age manage with his Hawk David to fight, and beat the hell out of Cort to become a man will before his time.
This alone is just damn impressive but its not pure skill, so what is it? Its pure tactical genius. Roland was train as a gun fighter, but has shown several times through use of animals to not lack in Close Combat.
As seen here he uses his Billy Bumbler to attack and kill Mutants in a close quarter combat scenario. In it Roland also shows he uses guns in close combat fights as well.
Roland again uses his Bumbler to engage a foe in close combat while Roland does the shooting.
Again his Bumbler helps Roland engage in close combat, and Roland agains uses guns in Close Combat.
In the fight with Mordred, a powerful Werespider, good old Oy engage in close combat buying Roland time for gun play. Poor Oy.
Anyway the point is Roland has great strength, and above average skill in Hand to Hand. What is impressive is his use of his animal companions in close combat scenarios, which should be standard gear for him, and his use of guns in close combat as well. Roland has another benefit in close combat, or range in his durability. I argue Roland is as durable as Ocelot all day long.
He can tank blows to the head or arm from large wooden weapons that would break the bones of anyone else, but never faze Roland. Still Roland has one feat that both ocelot and Hex have no way to match.
Roland here is shot multple times by large 7.56 rounds from WW2 era rifles. He not only is still standing, but gets a head injury after ward. In a few hours, Roland gets back on his feat, and saves another person with him. Carrying her to safety by running from the battlefield. All while still full of holes! One shot from those rifles kill normal men, and Roland is hit with several, bleeding out. Still he does all this! Insane.
Then i can mention the hundreds of times Roland fought through starvation, dehydration, being poisoned, dying of fever, and half the Dark tower novels he is aged to being a old man with bad arthritis, yet still kicking butt like his younger days.
In short, he is the most durable guy here by feats my friends. Roland is the best Cowboy, and will win this fight.
This might post twice, because CV ate my post once, but thanks to Fizz's youtube tutorials, I no longer need worry about it, and copied what I already wrote to a PM. :D
I may edit some more stuff in too, because I was planning on writing more, but got tired and lazy towards the end. lol.
Alright, enough messing around. I suppose I should just show you why Hex clearly wins now. :)
I'm not going to break down every point you guys have made, because for the most part, I agree with what you guys are saying, but I would like to comment on a feat Nick talked about from Ocelot, that is always heavily debated.
That's the lightning feat of course.
There's been a lot of debate on exactly how fast Volgin's lightning actually is. The common rebuttal is that "it's not natural lightning" which is stupid for several reasons. First of all, yes it is natural, it comes from Volgin's own biological body, that makes it naturally formed. Secondly, forget the word 'lightning.' At its purest, this is just electricity, and electricity travels through the atmosphere at a constant speed.
I don't disagree with your overall point, which is the level of shooting it required from Ocelot, because it's top tier no doubt about it, but I do want to clear things up somewhat. I'll put it in a spoiler block, because it's pretty boring, and can probably be skipped even.
What does all of that nonsense mean? It means that we are thinking too much about it. If Thor or Storm was to project lightning at someone, we would just accept it as lightning. The the thing is though, Thor and Stom's lightning doesn't make any sense either. You can't force electricity at someone like a ranged attack if we are trying to be completely logical by real life physics. The electricity would just flow from their bodies into the ground EVERY SINGLE TIME, but we never get into lengthy debates about Thor shooting a lightning bolt.
So why do we question Volgin? I think we should just let it be lightning, because that's what Hideo Kojima made it in his mind. Does it make sense? No, but lightning projection doesn't make sense in any other fiction either, but we never question it. This is one of the MGS troll devices invented by a few users, and while it does technically make sense in a real life scenario, it's still only a half truth by that, and it's clearly not real life anyways.Trying to apply real life physics in a fictional setting to something that doesn't follow any actual physics to begin with is just odd to me. I have a hard time thinking that Hideo Kojima created a character who can shoot lightning, but wanted this lightning character to shoot slow lightning. Why not just make him a fire demon if he wants slower projectiles, since fire can be fired at varied speeds? :O
Does this make me think that Ocelot can quick draw as fast as Hex, Roland, or even MWNN though, no it doesn't. This is an amazing feat, but I don't think it does anything to confirm him as the fastest. I actually find his quick draw feat on the tanker as a better showing of drawing quick.
Volgin charges his attacks before shooting lightning. We see him do that a lot. In this feat in particular, lightning is arcing off of his body quite a bit, as Ocelot watches him get ready to attack. Volgin then raises his hand, and is still charging his attack. There is a burst of light, as it looks like it's about to leave his hand. This is when Ocelot draws. This isn't really any different then drawing before someone is about to shoot their gun. Ocelot gets his bullets flying before the electricity leaves Volgin's hand. If he didn't, then the bullets wouldn't have made it as far as they did. Electricity travels a LOT faster then bullets, even with the whole debate of how fast the electricity is moving, it's clearly intended to be a lot faster then bullets. If Ocelot would have fired after the electricity was in it's flight path, then the bullets wouldn't have even left Ocelot's gun, even if he fired. They probably wouldn't even enter the barrel of his gun, and would only just be starting to explode from the chamber.
What this impresses me on, is that Ocelot was able to shoot at where he expected Volgin to fire his electricity. I know the term "aim dodger" is used a lot, but what Ocelot did was "aim fire". He was was able to aim and correctly place his bullets in the path where Volgin was aiming.
This feat shows a lot for Ocelot, but not necessarily his best in quick draw. It's great in quick draw, but it's tough to actually judge how quick he drew his gun, because it's obvious he drew while Volgin was getting ready to fire, not after Volgin fired. It's not like he was beating electricity in speed, he was just predicting it's path.
What this does show, is that Ocelot has the amazing awareness, and skill to predict friggin lightning. That's crazy! Who can shoot lightning out of the air by just looking where electricity is balling up and arcing on a hand? I can only think of one person, and that's because he did it.
While this is awesome, I don't think it convinces me he can shoot first.
I think that comes down to Hex and Roland. As a huge fan of both, I can't honestly say who would win. One thing I can say though, is that I don't think Roland or Hex is clearly defined by scans and quotes alone. I don't think reading quotes from the Dark Tower are good enough to actually appreciate Roland's speed. The way Roland is described in the book, is something that needs to be experienced firsthand. Taking snippets that say he "shot blindingly fast", are easy for the ignorant to just call hyperbole, but the way King wrote those books, there is just something about them, that as every bit and piece is put together from a stack of books that are about a brick thick in each book, it all adds up to make you think Roland is firing with beyond any speed seen from any other quick drawers in fiction. A collection of quotes and scans really don't give the total experience. It's hard to explain, as you can tell by my explanation here, lol, but there really is something about reading those books as being the only way to fully appreciate Roland. I'm not saying that anyone who wants to talk about Roland on here needs to dedicate a year of their life to read through that mountain of a series, but to just take Fizz's word for it here. The speeds he is talking about are legitimate. I know we tend to over-hype some of our favorite characters on the vine at times, but this is an example where I agree with the speeds Fizz is talking about. By the time you finish reading that series, you find yourself thinking anything Roland attempts is done so at levels beyond a human's capabilities, and while that includes shooting, it applies to basically every aspect of life as well.
The same could be said of Jonah Hex too. Looking at a scan or two of him, is cool, but to really dig into Hex as a character, it's tough to show by short snippets. He's a character that seems so simple. He's always pissed off, and he's good at violence. That would sum him up pretty well, but after reading enough, you start seeing how much deeper of a character he is. That's why the same writers were able to stay with Hex for over 100 issues, which is all but unheard of for one of the Big Two publishers. Jimmy Palmiotti said on the CV podcast that he could write a thousand Hex stories and never feel like he's running out of ideas. He talks about how Hex is just capable of handling everything thrown at him so he could just keep coming up with new challenges for him, no matter what. You might think you know Hex's limits, but then a bigger challenge faces him in the next issue, and his limits are pushed again. This happens all the time.
This is why showing a few feats is probably not going to convince anyone of anything, but I'm going to try anyways. :)
I'll finally get to the meat and potatoes of this, since everyone is probably sick of my dumb rant by now. :P
What's going to happen when the shooting starts? Here's how I think Hex can win.
Hex, IMO, is only going to be challenged in draw speed by Roland. I'll get to some more draw speed later, but let's just say someone does get bullets flying at Jonah before he does. It's likely everyone will have bullets flying at them in this, as there are a lot of fast guns out there.
Here's the thing though, Jonah Hex is, IMO, by far the best at avoiding bullets in this thread. I don't even think it's a contest. I've already shown in the images in my last post while talking of CQC, that bullets sprayed his way, he has no problem just diving to dodge from. Pretty typical action hero stuff. But he does go above and beyond that.
Like here:
There is no one else here with the speed to slice three bullets out of the air with a sword. What makes this even more impressive is that all tree bullets are only a few inches from each other from leaving the guns. They are spread out among his body, but they are only inches in travel distance. That means Hex has to swing his sword to three entirely different locations, all before each bullet can travel just inches. He has to see which bullets are going to hit him first, then swing his sword to that spot to deflect, then see what bullet will hit second, and swing his sword to that spot, then do this one more time. He even slices a fourth single bullet completely in half.
What makes all of this even more impressive, is that Hex had his sword in it's scabbard as the bullets left the gun. You can tell by the page before this one.
Hex does not have his sword drawn when they are shooting. He has to draw his sword, and deflect the bullets, all before the bullets can travel the few feet it takes to reach him. This speed and reaction times is not paralleled by any other character in this thread. Ocelot is close with the shooting lightning, but his targets were much bigger, where Hex actually sliced tiny bullets in half. He also did all of this after the bullets were fired.
But let's say the bullets actually get through? I've already shown in my last post, that Hex getting shot doesn't really even bother him, but I might argue that his toughness is even more proven then Roland's, which is saying a lot.
Take this for example:
That's a friggin bull, and not just any bull, the most dangerous bull in a bull fightingtown. That same bull won a fight with a grizzly bear earlier in the issue. Taking shots right at his torso, and Hex keeps with it. In fact, he keeps with it repeatedly.
Hex can take shots from bulls and keep his head up.
Sure, there is damage done to his body, but his body really should be squished in half from that impact, instead, he takes some injury, but not so severe that he's able to shoot like this in just three weeks after being repeatedly smashed by a prize bull.
He's sniping individual thorns off of a cactus.
While it did take three weeks to heal (which is beyond any normal human anyways), there is nothing that is going to hit him with the impact of a bull. Not even a bullet can do the damage of a bull while pinned against a wall. Not even a barrage of bullets would do that kind of damage.
Just to further confirm Hex's toughness, take this feat of him in the frozen north.
Gallery
Hex is tie up, and forced into a frozen lake. This should be a perfect death sentence. If you read the dialogue of the witness to it, it describes Hex in the light most people see him.
"I had little doubt Hex would be dead, his body frozen in the lake until summer. Hence my insistence that some supernatural force dwelled inside him, or perhaps looked after him in most dire circumstances. No other explanation satisfies my line of questioning on how he emerged from the lake. Spirit alone can not save a man exposed to the elements in such a manner. Even luck runs out after a full night in the open."
What makes this even more impressive, is that he goes on to lead a pack of dogs like an expert, and through the freezing winds all while still soaking wet from the frozen lake. Hex was raised in the dry hot climates of the south too. His body shouldn't be acclimated to this. Even someone born on the north pole wouldn't be acclimated to what Hex does, and even if he did, I doubt he would be functioning well enough to lead a pack of dogs like a complete expert. There is more dialogue in the scans of how impressed the witness is to Hex's ability to lead the dogs after what he was exposed to, and never doing it before.
It doesn't even end there though. Hex's sled journey takes him to the bounty he came to collect. By time he gets there, he is a walking sheet of ice. This is what happens:
Gallery
Hex should not be alive here. He should have frozen to death, instead, Hex brings death to a lot of people.
He walks right to the fort, and starts off with a shotgun blast head shot. It's a double barrel, so as soon as the next enemy peaks his head out, he uses the second shot on his head also.
He then turns to find a whole bunch of people with guns aimed at him. They open fire while Hex shows off more of his bullet avoiding skills, by rolling, jumping, and side stepping bullets in a very acrobatic maneuver, all while returning kill shots in he process.
He lands, to see a gun drawn on him behind the building he rolled to. He speed blitzes, knocks the gun to the side, but doesn't have room to take a shot, instead he aims up (without even looking, notice that his head is down), and shoots an icicle off of the roof of the building next to him, that he catches and uses as a makeshift knife to the eye ball! (like i said earlier, Hex loves destroying eye balls. lol)
There are still a few enemies left around the corner, so he kicks the newly made cyclops from behind the corner to scare his buddies into filling the poor guy with bullets, as Hex steps around and puts three quick shots into three quick kills.
If this feat isn't toughness, then I don't know what is.
There is more I could post, and probably will in a later post, that can match more of Roland's toughness, such as getting poisoned, feats of him as an old man, feats of him battered and bruised, but still kicking @$$, but for now, let's get back into the quick draw part of this, as it is pretty important to get the first good shot off.
Jonah Hex has the most experience fighting other gunslinger type characters. He does it in every issue. While you could play the "fodder" card for a lot of them, they are still cowboy, quickdraw, fan the trigger types.
Take this guy for example:
It may not be completely clear how fast of a shot he is, but it is clearly art that was made to show quick shooting.
Hex just happens to bump into him as he is leaving the burning building and the art shows even more quick shooting.
Hex is around these sorts all the time, so he doesn't even feel threatened by the kid. He literally is just walking up asking for the sheriff. Lol. That's what takes him by surprise when the kid actually shoots him.
So ya, Hex gets shot in what should be a lethal lung/heart shot, but instead Hex does this:
While falling off of a horse, with a gun shot wound in the chest/heart area, Hex grabs his own gun, hits the ground, the puts three quick shots before the kid can get another shot off. The three shots make a perfect line going: Heart, windpipe, then brain. That's some deadly accurate lethal shooting, all while he should be dead almost instantly.
So even if someone does get the draw on Hex and puts a bullet in him, even if it looks lethal, it doesn't really necessarily mean a victory for the shooter. It might just give Hex an opening to put three lethal bullets to the one that was put on him.
This is assuming that someone actually can outdraw Hex, and actually hit him before he either dodges or deflects the bullets.
Hex has a lot going for him in this, and I do still have a lot more I may or may not show in a later post to add to speed, accuracy, CQC, toughness, and other areas of him. He is one of those characters with a lot of issues of comics, but since he has only had one team of writers in his modern appearances for over 100 issues, he has been consistently written as a character on par with superheroes in his abilities, but his abilities revolve around Western traits
Here's the thing; I 100% agree with you that Roland is way out of Ocelot's league in accuracy. I mean shooting a bunch of those flying Harry Potter things all day long and never missing? Jeez luise this guy is insane. Ocelot's actual accuracy, by comparison, leaves a lot to be desired. You're correct, he has no decent distance feats at all and actually failed to hit Naked Snake on EVA's motorcycle. If we're talking about who can hit the bullseye on a target, than Roland, Jonah Hex, The Man With No Name, John Marston, Deadshot, Bullseye, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, even Solid Snake and Big Boss all totally leave Revolver Ocelot in the dust. I acknowledge this.
I dont know about all those being more accurate, but yeah.
The problem is that you're coming from the perspective that accuracy means everything. We're talking about a gun fight here, not target practice. Ocelot can't hit a pea 600 meters away like Roland can, but he can certainly hit a human sized target standing 10 feet away. Same goes for every single character involved in this match, distance accuracy is literally a complete non-factor because nobody here is incompetent enough to miss at close range.
Read the OP for me. I cannot seem to find a starting distance in that large expanse of land as per rules. If close range, the argument is speed, which Roland matches. Distance, its all Roland. Either way I edge it to Roland IMO.
If Roland can somehow run away from Ocelot and get 600 meters away, he wins, no question. But such a scenario is pretty much impossible to happen. This is a close range gunfight, so every time Ocelot fires his gun, the bullet WILL be on trajectory towards Roland, or Hex, or whoever he chooses. This scene proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt;
Roland can't win through his sheer accuracy. In a gunfight, accuracy isn't all that important, presuming you don't actually straight up miss, which Ocelot wouldn't do. So since it's a given that everybody here can aim at their target accurately, the question becomes, who is actually fast enough to react to a bullet in motion and step away from its trajectory? I don't know about Roland, but I can say with 100% certainty that Revolver Ocelot is. He actually engages other master marksman in prolonged gun duels quite regularly, and always survives without taking a single shot.
Roland is fast enough to react and move at speed faster than a horde of bats can move a foot, has deanced around 50 people trying to attack him with projectiles and hand attacks, and been in the middle of gun fights with whole armies while avoiding gunfire. I think he can dodge gun shots from anyone here as well the next guy. That is my opinion.
Let's just assume for a moment that Adam (Ocelot) and Roland have equal draw speed. They both pull their guns and shoot, and at this range neither will miss, so is Roland fast enough to dodge the bullet at that point? We know that Adam is, so let's assume Roland can too. Then they just repeat; shoot, dodge, shoot, dodge, shoot, dodge. Eventually Roland is going to take the bullet, because he's not as good at dodging bullets as Adam is. This is disregarding the fact that Adam is faster on the draw, so he'll actually be getting more shots off and giving Roland less time to return fire in between all the dodging.
Interesting scenario, however I disagree with a few points and agree with others. I underline what i do not agree with to make it easier.
1) I assume as earlier he can dodge bullets base on feats, and I assume he will tag Ocelot as he has other beings with great dodge capabilities regardless.
2) Even if Roland takes a bullet, he will likely fight on, suffering impossible to survive wounds as I showed earlier with little overall effect to his skill. Ocelot, cannot say the same by feats.
Revolver Ocelot is not one of the most accurate shooters in fiction. He IS however one of the best gunfighters in fiction, because gunfighting literally takes place at close range. He's called Revolver Ocelot, not Sniper Ocelot. It's a fact that Ocelot can't hit distance targets, but you don't NEED to hit distance targets in a gunfight. Ocelot is the better gunfighter because he's faster on the draw, faster on his feet, more strategically intelligent, and can ricochet bullets. Roland is not on his tier in any of those categories.
1) I don't thing he is faster on the draw by feats.
2) Faster on his feet is negated by Roland's accuracy feats.
3) Roland IMO is smarter in fight. He proven this to me more unlike Ocelot who works best manipulating more than anything.
Alright, I have to admit you have a point. Ocelot certainly isn't mach 17,000. But you're acting like this is his only feat worth mentioning, which is not true. Ocelot has a lot less screentime than Roland, so I can't go feat-for-feat with you, but quality comes over quantity. And in this case, literally every single time Revolver Ocelot draws his revolver, he is moving at insane speeds.
Beats Solid Snake on the draw and fires off several times while Solid Snake is still in the process of reaching down.
When he has a gun aimed at his back by Colonel Gurlukovich, Ocelot turns around, draws his revolver, aims, and empties the entire chamber all before Gurlukovich could simply pull his trigger, than draws a second revolver and guns down Gurlukovich's squad of soldiers surrounding him again before any of them could pull their trigger.
Draws his revolver and shoots Fortune through the chest, again when she already had her weapon aimed and finger on the trigger.
Draws his revolver and guns down six KGB soldiers with their rifles already aimed before any of them can react.
Draws his revolver and redirects a blast of electricity in-motion.
Because of this, I am willing to agree Ocelot is fast enough on draw speed on average to compete with Roland's average.
Now let's take another look at Roland's feats that you mentioned;
Soldiers and mercenaries with their rifles already aimed are a lot faster than bats.
Its not who is faster, its the quantifiable time span we have. Human Soldiers will hesitate to shoot, or freeze in combat, or simply have a off day. Former Military remember? It is impressive as hell, however this scenario had some context to it. One, no one was sure what Ocelot was doing. Two he threw his coat as a distraction before unloading. Its still good, however the bats is no nonsense speed. Speed of a bat can cover is on average 58 FPS or 40 MPH. Not that fast. A arrow can travel 300 FPS lol. However, you have 5 bats flying at Roland from 5 angles. He draws his gun, and blasts all five seemingly at the same time, before they can fly a foot. The speed for that is beyond human and human reaction which is 280 FPS max. Its crazy good, and quantifiable.
Roland is described as "blindingly fast." Would you not say that this is blindingly fast?
Yes, but spinning a object like a gun on your finger is not the same as moving your arm from mouth to hip, and back up firing a round. Best part is this word "Blindingly fast" is used by Susanah and Eddie in context and they are super fast base on feats. So Roland is blinding to people who see blinding speeds.
When was this?
The Feat of Summer Blue Lightning, The gun fire, before the bullet made it out the barrel, Roland pulled his gun and fired as the bullet just nicked his chin.
Fortune is a superhuman with feats. Fortune > some machine who's reaction speed isn't even proven beyond humans.
This is false in so many ways. Machine like a computer has faster reacting time than Fortune. Beating multiple machines design for war, made with tech that traverse time and space, tech that make lightsabers and sneetches a reality, tech that affects magic, is not slower than Fortune. That is ignorant.
I really think it's fairly clear that Ocelot is the faster guy.
I think not. We are at a impasse.
Well you're kinda taking my words out of context. You originally said that Ocelot has never been able to fight the vampires and superhumans that Roland fights, I was just explaining that he actually was able to beat Fortune, who up till that point was portrayed as an invincible witch, until Ocelot tore her down. Who cares whether or not Fortune was faster than Snake or Raiden? She has her own feats, she guided RAY's entire payload of missiles through and around the group using her psychic powers despite only being half-conscious from blood loss. She has EXTREMELY superhuman reaction time. It's definitely possible that Snake wasn't actually defeated by Fortune, but really that's beside the point. Ocelot still displayed tremendous speed against her, that is what matters. Also tremendous stealth (stealing her device right off her belt in front of everyone), and planning.
All ocelot vs Fortune shows is he is faster than her. Even though she was mentally unhinged with the truth he told her. She was distracted talking to herself, taking it in at the time. Hardly ideal conditions. Its simple, ocelot got in her head, which was tactful. I am sure that played a role. Still a damn good feat either way.
And you say "Solid Snake speed" like that's a bad thing. Snake's reflexes are sharp enough to react to an invisible Cyborg Ninja sneak attack from behind. This doesn't change the fact that Ocelot was faster than Olga despite being ambushed.
Solid Snake is as fast as one can get. Dancing around Ocelot's fire. Its not a bad thing. I expect even Roland having trouble tagging him, point is Ocelot never did well against Snake except in one CQC match. The other CQC match had a microwave to hell Snake matching him, and in a gun fight Snake did better.
So the point is, Ocelot CAN fight superhumans and totally own them through his gunfighting skill and tactical intelligence.
I agree with the last part. Ocelot is not beating Fortune or Snake in a random. I feel Roland speed wise with accuracy could do the same though he has in the same situations. Things is Roland has more feats in this area as well.
It's not Ocelot's fault that he misses. His bullets are always on trajectory, but his targets, Solid Snake and Naked Snake, are able to move out the way of that trajectory. That doesn't change the fact that he can beat Roland, because Roland is not nearly as good at dodging as those two super soldiers.
I think he can dodge as well as Ocelot. In a gun fight anyway, not close combat which is what Ocelot is better in IMO.
Your psychological warfare will not deter my concentration, 'mate'...
Oh damn, you caught on :) lol
Wait, I'm talking about Olga, not Gray Fox. That's why I posted the clip of Olga. Although neither of them ever deflected any of Ocelot's bullets, that's just a lie.
I posted Grey fox deflecting several shot from Ocelot.
Here it is again. Canon material.
Yes, I admit Ocelot had his hand cut off by Gray Fox, that is definitely one instance where he was out-done plain and simple. But Gray Fox is one of the greatest soldiers in history, Solid Snake's mentor and Big Boss's highest lieutenant, that's hardly a low showing. What matters is that Ocelot avoided Olga, who is highly skilled and fast in her own right. Roland would lose in BOTH situations, so that makes Ocelot faster.
I think not. I see nothing ocelot done that Roland could not match. Would Roland beat Cyborg Ninja? no. Would he beat Olga.... eh... she has like 2 feats as Cyborg Ninja, and I know Roland would beaten her as human. So... meh. Either way he would not preform any lower than Ocelot in the same instances.
But Ocelot has snuck up on them both directly, as well as EVA, and Fortune to great effect as we went over. Quality over quantity. If you want more traditional infiltration, let us not forget that Ocelot made his way through the CIA Headquarters at the end of Portable Ops without raising any suspicion, assassinated the DCI in a manner indistinguishable from suicide, then escaped with the Philosopher's Legacy all without anybody ever even knowing he was there in the first place. Clearly, Ocelot has his own stealth skills just like the Snakes.
That was not sneaking around anymore than having the proper ID, and resources to go unnoticed though. I see this in spy flicks all the time. We never seen Ocelot crawl through brush, by pass patrols, hide from sight while infiltrating ect.
Although I was unaware that Roland had some stealth skill as well. Still, Ocelot has gotten the drop on both Snakes. He can definitely get the drop on Roland.
I disagree.
I also showed Roland dealing with complete invisible Not Men fine the second time in a gun fight. As well his own stealth feats. That is how good his awareness and senses are.... mate :)
Well Ocelot found a way to bring down The Patriots.
End of story right there, lol
Roland brought down the Crimson King and save the Multiverse. So End of Story Right There.
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