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#1 Edited by The_Caped_Crusader (10533 posts) - - Show Bio
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#2 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Roland wins.

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#3 Posted by Racob7 (9584 posts) - - Show Bio

Roland or MWNN.

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#4 Posted by Ondskapt666 (1318 posts) - - Show Bio

You should replace Han Solo with Vigilante (Greg Saunders).

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#5 Edited by The_Caped_Crusader (10533 posts) - - Show Bio

@ondskapt666 said:

You should replace Han Solo with Vigilante (Greg Saunders).

I just added him, along w/ Erron Black from Mortal Kombat. Who do you think wins?

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#6 Posted by Ondskapt666 (1318 posts) - - Show Bio

@ondskapt666 said:

You should replace Han Solo with Vigilante (Greg Saunders).

I just added him, along w/ Erron Black from Mortal Kombat. Who do you think wins?

If you're adding people then Sgt. Rock would be awesome too haha :-P

I really like Erron Black but I don't see him winning here. I gotta do some more research before I post any opinions. I'll be back :)

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#7 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Roland still wins. Ocelot as a close second.

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#8 Posted by The_Caped_Crusader (10533 posts) - - Show Bio

Roland still wins. Ocelot as a close second.

Mind ranking them?

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#9 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Roland

Ocelot

Materson, MWNN

Everyone else

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#10 Posted by The_Caped_Crusader (10533 posts) - - Show Bio

@racob7 said:

Roland or MWNN.

Roland still wins. Ocelot as a close second.

Even Round 2, where Marston is allowed Deadeye?

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#11 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by The_Caped_Crusader (10533 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

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#13 Posted by Back_stabbath95 (2179 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Edited by The_Caped_Crusader (10533 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by Back_stabbath95 (2179 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by Keenko (5183 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by The_Caped_Crusader (10533 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_caped_crusader: Are they all just regular guys or any powers?

Revolver Ocelot has a device which can create forcefields.

John Marston has Deadeye which can slow down time and allow him to get accurate shots.

Roland Deschain's guns can kill immortals.

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#19 Posted by Keenko (5183 posts) - - Show Bio

Dunno much about Ocelot or Roland, but from hearsay and seeing who they get put against on the forums, I'd wager they're the last two. Marston is a high end contender who can I vouch will hold his own. Man with No Name is also a badass who will fight hard. Solo relies mainly on luck. Those are my only real thoughts at the moment.

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#20 Posted by RolandDeschainGokuGhostRider (698 posts) - - Show Bio

Roland. And yes I'm pretty sure his guns can kill immortals, does he have both hands?

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#21 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Roland also has a degree of superhuman speed, and impossible accuracy.

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#22 Posted by beatboks1 (9756 posts) - - Show Bio

Unfortunately I dont know most of these guys. Hex is a fav of mine and during his time displaced post apocalyptic 21st century years he had some pretty good feats. Hes heven taken down a sky scrapper sized robot with a six shooter as well as muktiple drones etc etc

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#23 Posted by Back_stabbath95 (2179 posts) - - Show Bio

@back_stabbath95 said:

@the_caped_crusader: Are they all just regular guys or any powers?

Revolver Ocelot has a device which can create forcefields.

John Marston has Deadeye which can slow down time and allow him to get accurate shots.

Roland Deschain's guns can kill immortals.

Hmm not sure how Hol Horse would do hes from JoJo's and his stand is his revolver called Emperor he can control the bullet it shoots and make it zip around

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#24 Posted by ob1ed209 (1277 posts) - - Show Bio

Roland can win this. man with no name is my favorite however.

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#25 Posted by deactivated-59a1cd01bf3b0 (1238 posts) - - Show Bio

Deschain wins.

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#26 Posted by Lunacyde (27746 posts) - - Show Bio

Aww. I was hoping to see Vash, but then again that really wouldn't be fair.

Moderator
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#27 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: hahaha that he like arguing house cats to a tiger

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#28 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

Jonah Hex or Roland win. They are dang near identical in every way, but I might lean towards Jonah for having better proven reaction times and bullet timing.

MWNN is a close second. His speed and accuracy are superhuman like Roland and Hex's, but it's hard for me to say he's all the way to their level. He is close though.

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#29 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: That stuff from Hex was a little weird, but it was a fun read. His best speed and general gun slinging feats are from his 70 issue Justin Gray & Jimmy Palmiatti run though. That was when he was slicing bullets out of the air with his civil war sabre, out-shooting tons of enemies at the same time before they could lift a gun, using one bullet to ricochet kill 10 people with a single shot, and never once missing a single shot throughout all 70 issues.

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#30 Edited by Ya_Idjits (190 posts) - - Show Bio

Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came....

Roland, Son of Steven of the Line of Eld carries the day.

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#31 Posted by sinikettu (2629 posts) - - Show Bio

Roland. That guy was pretty much born with a gun in his hand and a killer's gleam in his eyes.

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#32 Posted by Don_Sevour (1021 posts) - - Show Bio

This Battle is Awesome! And I'd say MWNN wins if it's a battle with just pistols. MWNN is best at 1 thing, putting a bullet where he wants it to be. If it's a battle with full gear allowed, then i'd say Revolver Ocelot. Dude has some really advanced tech that IMO would make this battle really unfair.

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#33 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

Roland. That guy was pretty much born with a gun in his hand and a killer's gleam in his eyes.

Well you say Roland was "pretty much" born with a gun in his hand, but Revolver Ocelot quite literally WAS born right in the middle of the battlefield on the beaches of Normandy, when his pregnant mother who was leading the charge took a bullet to the belly, and was forced to give birth by emergency c-section right then and there with bullets and explosions flying around. Ocelot was then taken by the Philosophers (a secret organization of the richest, most powerful minds of the U.S., Soviet Union, and Republic of China all joined together for a common goal) and trained to become their most skilled and trusted field agent. He stalemated the legendary Big Boss in a gun duel when he was still just a teenager, so that's something to keep in mind about his gunfighting abilities.

@sirfizzwhizz: Can you refresh me on Roland's abilities? Here is an often overlooked feat of Ocelot's from MGS1. Solid Snake is standing behind a wall looking at the PAL key card which is out of sight from Ocelot. Ocelot takes out his revolver and fires, and we hear the round make several ricochets before coming at Snake from the side and knocking the card key out of his hand. I would understand disregarding this since we don't see the bullet rebounding (I'm actually curious to see what people think of it) but considering all we know of Ocelot at this point in the story is that he loves revolvers and ricochets are his specialty, and he was ricocheting bullets all around the room in his fight with Snake, I think it would be pretty easy to accept that he was just doing his signature thing. I mean the audio cues are unmistakeable, Ocelot fires his bullet and we hear the ricochet sound at least once, and then the bullet hits Snake from the side.

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If we accept this feat, then taking into account all factors it actually becomes quite remarkable.

  1. Gray Fox sliced off Ocelot's shooting hand earlier. He fired with his non-dominant hand and didn't even take time to aim.
  2. Ocelot drew so fast that Solid Snake was not able to react.
  3. Only the edge of Snake's elbow was actually visible. Ocelot could not even see the card key at all. The fact that he shot it doesn't even make any sense.
  4. Ocelot's bullet did not damage the card key in any way, he only knocked it from Snake's hand. Meaning the bullet just millimeterically skimmed the card's edge (card key is just plastic, not strong at all) which would require insane precision on Ocelot's part.
  5. It was pretty dark. Not the biggest deal but all factors matter.

This video gives a pretty good idea of how quickly and skillfully Ocelot ricochets his bullets in actual combat. Hiding behind cover is completely useless, and since I believe Ocelot is the only actual bullet timer here... well he has a pretty big advantage.

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"Hiding won't help you. I understand the bullets you see, I make them go where I want!"

The retelling of this fight from "In The Darkness of Shadow Moses" (100% canon) also confirms that Ocelot was "hemming Snake in with a tight web of ricochets" and Nastasha Romanenko, a professional military analyst who deals with the supernatural pretty regularly, has nothing but praise for Ocelot's abilities.

According to Naomi Hunter, the former director of FOXHOUND's genetic manipulation program, Revolver Ocelot is a former Spetznaz. He moved into OMON (Otryad Militsii Osobogo Naznacheniya, the Interior Ministry riot squad, AKA Black Berets) and the SVR (the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service) -- a successor to the KGB's First Chief Directorate -- after the collapse of the Soviet Union, but was unable to adapt to the new regime and dropped out. He cut a swath through the world's hot spots as a mercenary before being recruited by FOXHOUND. As his codename indicates, Ocelot is a master marksman with a marked preference for revolvers. We could hear the gun battle between Snake and Ocelot over the radio. Ocelot was using an antique Single Action Army revolver against Snake's SOCOM pistol. The first Single Action Army Revolver was manufactured in 1873. A small number of them are still in production today, but strictly for collectors and antique weapon fanciers; using this out- moded weapon for live combat is unheard of. But Ocelot seemed to invest the vintage gun with diabolical powers. He would purposefully fire against walls and the floor, weaving a tight web of ricocheting bullets around Snake, gradually hemming him in.

All we could do was silently monitor the battle. However, Snake was slowly but surely gaining the upper hand by dodging the ricochets and exploiting the revolver's lengthy reload window. Finally, just as Snake was about to deliver the decisive blow, an explosion rang out.

The excerpt does state that Snake was slowly gaining the upperhand, which definitely wouldn't be a low showing for Ocelot as Snake fights groups of superhumans regularly and has tagged at least two or three legitimate speedsters with his gunfire, but it's worth mentioning that Ocelot revealed he was still "just getting warmed up" right before Gray Fox interrupted the battle. And stalemating Solid Snake is a feat in itself.

So I think Ocelot is still the king of the trickshot, and unless Roland is a bullet timer, he's at a pretty big disadvantage.

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#34 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

Jonah Hex or Roland win. They are dang near identical in every way, but I might lean towards Jonah for having better proven reaction times and bullet timing.

MWNN is a close second. His speed and accuracy are superhuman like Roland and Hex's, but it's hard for me to say he's all the way to their level. He is close though.

Check out my post about Ocelot above.

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#35 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: @nickzambuto: I think Ocelot deserves a spot as a contender in this, and he would own in hand to hand like Fizz says. When it comes to pure speed and accuracy though, I don't know if there is any character to ever top Roland and Hex. They are pretty much identical.

Jonah Hex does have his own ricochet feat too. It was believed to be a tall tale, until later it was confirmed that Jonah did in fact pull off an impossible shot. He was facing 12 men in a canyon, and he only had one shot. He used the one bullet to go through 11 of the men, bouncing it off of the walls of the canyon as it travels from one enemy to the next killing them instantly, and the 12th man thinks he gets off lucky as the bullet ricochets high and misses him. It turns out that Jonah aimed for a boulder above the man's head, which comes loose and falls to kill the man below.

The thing is though, Jonah isn't really known for trick shooting. He showed that if he's forced to do it, he's amazing at it, and able to do Ocelot level ricochets (or at least near Ocelot) in a pinch, but he's normally a lot more simple. He just draws and shoots, faster then anyone else around him, and always with perfect accuracy. Ocelot has his awesome quick draw feat on I think it was around 8 soldiers or so, which is what Jonah Hex does basically every issue he's in. His 70 issue run by Palmiatti has him never miss a shot once.

He is also pretty talented at avoiding gun fire. I've been rethinking the term bullet timing and how often it's thrown around on here, but Hex is one of the few characters I believe to be an actual bullet timer anymore. He has just too many feats of people shooting him from behind, and him turning and dodging. He also has feats of slicing bullets in half with his civil war sabre in mid flight. This was probably aim deflecting, but still impressive. I think characters like Hex and other gunslingers are more believable as bullet timers. They have the quickest reaction times and short burst speed of just about any other kind of street level character with their quick draws, and they are so familiar with superb marksmanship, that it would make sense for them to be able to quickly react and move when a bullet is fired. They may not have all out super speed, but certainly super speed for a fraction of a second, which is required for both bullet timing and quick draws at the levels they perform. I know Ocelot can avoid fire, and MWNN has several feats of it as well. I can't remember Roland being a bullet timer, but maybe Fizz can clear that up. Even if he never had the opportunity to dodge a bullet, I'd be very surprised if he couldn't if needed. Roland's tactics were normally so perfect though that no one ever gets a shot off on him to give him a chance to dodge a bullet.

I think I might still stick with Hex or Roland being the victors, but Ocelot and MWNN are definitely contenders, and like Fizz said, Ocelot would win in H2H for sure.

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#37 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: @nickzambuto: One of many feats.

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Look at this feat.

1) Gun goes bang, Smoke is blowing out of it. What is Roland doing? He is reaching with his odd hand for his gun on his waste, head down.

2) At around 5 feet, the bullet just nicks Roland chin, and Roland has his gun up, head up, and firing the gun at this time.

3) What makes this more impressive, Roland was poison and had a killer fever. He was dying! Yet reacted this fast at his worst.

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4) Further proof of the Novel about the same feat. Fast as a streak of blue summer lightning. Fast as ever if sick or half asleep in discussion of him dying from a fever.

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#39 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: I love how Roland is able to perform just as well as always, no matter what happens to him. Whether he's sick, poisoned, injured, loses the use of a hand, ages 10 years in a night, etc....

Hex has a similar feat, where he has been knocked unconscious, and is thrown into a ravine to die. A rattle snake finds him while he's unconscious, and goes to strike at Hex, Hex starts coming to in mid strike of the snake, and has the speed to draw his gun, and shoot the snake before it bites him. It's one of my favorite speed feats, because he is barely even conscious when he does it, and has barely a fraction of a fraction of a second to draw and shoot.

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#40 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

@sirfizzwhizz: I love how Roland is able to perform just as well as always, no matter what happens to him. Whether he's sick, poisoned, injured, loses the use of a hand, ages 10 years in a night, etc....

Hex has a similar feat, where he has been knocked unconscious, and is thrown into a ravine to die. A rattle snake finds him while he's unconscious, and goes to strike at Hex, Hex starts coming to in mid strike of the snake, and has the speed to draw his gun, and shoot the snake before it bites him. It's one of my favorite speed feats, because he is barely even conscious when he does it, and has barely a fraction of a fraction of a second to draw and shoot.

I think can top that with one of my fav Roland feats.

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As seen, 5 Sucker Bats are within 5 feet or Roland, and have him surrounded. Roland in that split second spins all around, firing a single shot, and nailing the bats before they move another foot. Bats are fast as hell too. This was incredible speed.

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#41 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: @tparks: You guys are both knowledgeable on Ocelot, so I don't understand why you would think feats like those make Hex and Roland faster than him. I see an average man pulling his trigger on Roland faster than Roland can draw his weapon, Hex drawing faster than a snake can lunge, and the best feat so far being Roland shooting five bats so quickly that none of them move. These feats definitely aren't bad, but Revolver Ocelot is still the king of the draw to me.

Just take a look at this scene. I'm assuming that Andolini already had his gun drawn on Roland which is how he was able to fire first (the alternative is that Andolini beat Roland on the draw, but I doubt that would have happened) but even if he had a disadvantage, Roland was unable to draw his gun and fire first.

Now in comparison, Ocelot was also facing a man who already had his gun drawn and aimed, but he was also turned around. Ocelot was able to turn around, reach behind his back, draw his gun and not only shoot Colonel Gurlukovich, but empty his entire clip into both Gurlukovich and Captain Dolph, all before Gurlukovich could simply pull his trigger once.

But it goes further. Ocelot then draws a second revolver and empties it into a whole squad of Gurlukovich's mercenaries who had him surrounded on all sides, without hitting any of the Marines, once again all before anybody can even react.

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This one scene is quantifiably faster than both Jonah and Deschain, multiple times over. Again I haven't seen either of them draw their weapon and kill a man who already had his gun aimed before he could react, let alone do it to 4-5 of the greatest mercenaries on the planet at the same time. Ocelot's gunslinging abilities are just over the top, blatantly superhuman.

Let's take a look at another scene of Ocelot's quickdraw. Fortune is a clear superhuman in her own right, not peak human, superhuman. At 8:07 in this video she was able to deflect RAY's entire payload of missiles singlehandedly using her psychic powers, expertly guiding them around Solid Snake, Raiden, Solidus, and herself so that none of them were exposed meaning she has the reaction time to keep up with dozens of mach 2 missiles all at once. What makes this doubly impressive is that Fortune was currently bleeding out at this time from getting shot in the chest. Blood loss obviously has a severe effect on a person's perception and reaction time, in fact Fortune was already so far gone that she actually died as soon as she finished deflecting th missile payload, meaning at 100% her reflexes would be exponentially faster than even this.

So who shot her through the chest in the first place? Revolver Ocelot. When she already had her weapon aimed and was merely moving to pull the trigger, he reached back, drew his gun, aimed and fired all too quickly for her to react.

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So I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that neither Jonah nor Roland are going to react to Ocelot's draw either. He's just too powerful. His weakness is actually sheer accuracy, he has few feats in that regard and actually failed to shoot Naked Snake when he was on a motorcycle a decent distance away. So if the fighters in this match manage to spread out and get behind cover, Ocelot will be at a disadvantage. But in that case, he has the stealth to sneak up on actual stealth masters like Solid Snake and Big Boss, so he would still win even then.

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#42 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Well by feats I do not see Ocelot doing what Roland can and has.

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Roland here is explained to move, think, and react faster than any of the other trained from birth Gunslingers. He unleashes his Hawk and retrieves it faster than even his friend Cuthbert, who is super human fast himself, could do the same task.

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Cuthbert is not slow either as he is faster than most harden Gunslingers can draw their pistols with his slower to reload Sling Shot! He loaded his Sling shot, and shot it off with aim faster than Depape could draw and fire his own gun.

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Roland faces off one of the most notorious Gunslingers for hire, Eldrad Jonas, and at the age of 16 he quick draws him with a double tap faster than he could bring his own gun to bear.

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Another good feat has a starving mad Roland who has not slept in forever is at his lowest when facing 8 mutant dogs. Roland is circled by them, each one less than 5 feat away, and they all charge in at one. Roland dances around them the most part taking them out one at a time while reciting the Creed. Last gets a bite on him, but again, Roland was raving mad and on fumes at this point, so its a damn good feat. Bat feat is better of Roland in much better shape and sound mind.

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1) "Too quick to see," and that reference was toward his Ka Tet of Susannah and Jake, both which are too quick to see for normal soldiers. Yet Roland is faster than them.

2) Roland draws his gun, and fires faster than a already aimed shotgun hidden in a basket can have the trigger pulled. Stated as "Blindingly fast as ever."

3) Here Roland quick draws in his pants, hidden from Randal Flagg who also has super human speeds. "His speed blinding."

Add in the above feat of quick as blue summer lightning, well you get the picture.

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This is a perfect feats of speeds comparisons. Eddie Dean is Allan Cuthbert, the kid with the sling shot mind you, reborn in another universe. Ka Tet and all that, long story short, he is insane fast. the Flat Hearty scan below will show this. Yet here Eddie realizes that Roland missing finger, and suffering from arthritis, and old age is still faster than Eddie can form a thought. The Novel states Sussanah is way faster than Eddie, and Roland makes her look slow. So lets put this in comparison of speed. Cuthbert/Eddie Dean < Susannah < Roland. When looking at Cuthberts speed feats, and Eddie's speed feats, that is crazy fast.

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Roland again described as fast at reloading a six shooter, each shell by hand. "With ghastly, supernatural speed." Wizard and Glass

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Flathearty and his gang of 17 soldiers that consisted of of Type 3 Vampires, Low Men, and Taheen. All are killed before they could fire their own guns back. Flathearty himself is killed while halfway drawing his gun by Roland who still had his hand up to his mouth. In this Roland with the super speed compared to Flathearty, fires off two shots. In a split second as stated, Eddie fire 6 shots, then Roland reloading his two fired another 6, then Eddie who reloaded again fired another 5 shots. All in the time that these train soliders could bring up there own weapons. Dark Tower

All in all the best speed feats Ocelot have consist of the blitzing Marines and GRU soldiers with the distraction of his coat, and rapid firing the Revolver of the taser like attack Volgin has. Those are good, but Roland is better IMO.

However its not speed alone either, its accuracy. Roland does not miss. Ocelot, love the guy, he misses a bit against super humans of Snake Caliber. I feel by feats, Roland would tag Solid Snake. By feats of marksmanship and the various super beings, or numbers of foes he tag in impossible conditions at a time..

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#43 Posted by RomanCyborg (162 posts) - - Show Bio

Erron black is too new. But he's bound to do damage, not bound to win

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#44 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: As skilled as Roland Deschain is, unless you're secretly holding back his best speed feats, Revolver Ocelot is still the king of the draw.

Don't get me wrong, Roland is more accurate, that's definite. Same goes for Jonah Hex. But I don't find either of their abilities in the category of speed to be nearly as over the top as the two clips I already showed for Ocelot. Let me go over the scans you posted and explain why I feel this way;

Roland here is explained to move, think, and react faster than any of the other trained from birth Gunslingers. He unleashes his Hawk and retrieves it faster than even his friend Cuthbert, who is super human fast himself, could do the same task.

You seem to be blowing this scan out of proportion. It says Roland was faster than all of his comrades, but you're trying to turn it into something that it really isn't. All he did was raise and release his hawk before anyone else. Is it really anything impressive? I mean SOMEONE had to be first, and is it really any surprise that Roland is the fastest out of all his fellow students? I mean that's kind of why he is the main character, they're just nameless nobodies in the background, filler members of the organization. I don't want to call them fodder since I know the gunslingers are very skilled, but... you know what I mean. Why is being the fastest among them impressive when that's the whole prerequisite of the story, and why is it anything impressive against Ocelot, who at the same age was the fastest gun among all the Spetsnaz and probably the fastest gun among all of GRU, the KGB, and CIA at the same time since he was working as a triple agent against them all? So why shouldn't we assume Ocelot would have also been the fastest among the gunslingers since gunslinging is his whole thing too? Why is this feat actually impressive?

Basically you're trying to blow that scan into something it isn't. If it matters, Ocelot was also trained since birth. In fact many characters in MGS have been. I don't think you would disagree when I say that the Metal Gear universe as a whole is more impressive than what Roland usually deals with. And yet even at the very end of the series, Ocelot is still the fastest gun around. In 1964 during MGS3 as a teenager, he was the fastest, and in 2014 during Guns of The Patriots, he was still the fastest. Who else could be fast enough to throw a mere cigar and hit Solid Snake, and without even looking too? Then when Snake counterattacks, Ocelot, barehanded, strips him of all his gear and utterly humiliates him in CQC, all before the cigar could reach the floor. Who else possesses speed asimpossible as this? Not Roland, even if he is about as close as any character can be.

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Let's take a look at Cuthbert. He isn't as fast as Ocelot, but if the comparison is correct, Susannah making him look slow and then Roland making Susannah look like a turtle trying to walk uphill on a piece of glass (which is hilarious btw) then I might start thinking that Roland and Ocelot are close to the same league. But I have to ask, why should we assume Eddie Dean and Cuthbert have equal skill if they were born in separate universes and lived entirely different lives? They probably don't have the same training, the same experience, or presumably the same skills. Unless Eddie has his own feats, I'm afraid there's no reason to believe him equal to his counterpart. So Roland is simply faster than someone who makes a regular person look slow. Doesn't sound like anything Ocelot would be impressed with.

Roland faces off one of the most notorious Gunslingers for hire, Eldrad Jonas, and at the age of 16 he quick draws him with a double tap faster than he could bring his own gun to bear.

This is hardly a legitimate duel. Eldrad wasn't even going for his gun, he was in the middle of a monologue and Roland just decided to shoot him. I'm pretty sure we can just assume Roland is faster than him anyway since Roland is obviously the best, but why is this impressive? You seriously think this is enough to make someone faster than Ocelot, when Ocelot has had LEGITIMATE duels with characters as skilled as Solid Snake and Big Boss, and even the graphic novel that you like so much explicitly shows Ocelot beating Snake on the draw by a mile? I mean it really says a lot how Ocelot is already firing before Snake has even drawn his gun. Snake reacts to the bullets themselves, but he does not react to Ocelot's draw. Ocelot's draw is faster than the actual bullets that he is firing. That is so over the top. Ocelot is the king of fictional cowboys.

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Another good feat has a starving mad Roland who has not slept in forever is at his lowest when facing 8 mutant dogs. Roland is circled by them, each one less than 5 feat away, and they all charge in at one. Roland dances around them the most part taking them out one at a time while reciting the Creed. Last gets a bite on him, but again, Roland was raving mad and on fumes at this point, so its a damn good feat. Bat feat is better of Roland in much better shape and sound mind.

This is another feat that I think you're blowing out of proportion. It actually isn't that impressive, since the dogs were very spread out, and pretty far from Roland, but he only just barely shot them all and ended up getting bit anyway. I won't use it as a low showing since you say Roland was in bad condition, and the bats feat is probably more indicative of his true capabilities, but that still doesn't make him as fast as Ocelot.

Look at this. The pack emerges from the mist and they are a fair distance away from Roland,

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Yet they are upon Roland before he can finish them off and he ends up getting bit by one. If Ocelot were in this situation, he would have killed all the dogs before they got close. I reference the scene against Gurlukovich and his soldiers. I haven't seen anything from Roland's feats to prove he is actually so over-the-top fast that he could replicate what Ocelot did there. In fact, this scene seems to confirm the opposite. All characters have limits, but this means that Ocelot's are higher than Roland's.

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1) "Too quick to see," and that reference was toward his Ka Tet of Susannah and Jake, both which are too quick to see for normal soldiers. Yet Roland is faster than them.

2) Roland draws his gun, and fires faster than a already aimed shotgun hidden in a basket can have the trigger pulled. Stated as "Blindingly fast as ever."

3) Here Roland quick draws in his pants, hidden from Randal Flagg who also has super human speeds. "His speed blinding."

Consistent statements but Ocelot seems to physically move at the speeds described more regularly than Roland actually does. You're taking the narration a bit out of context, Roland is described as being "blindingly fast" and the like, but it is not specifically in relation to Susannah, Jake, or Randal. He is just blindingly fast in general.

Roland again described as fast at reloading a six shooter, each shell by hand. "With ghastly, supernatural speed." Wizard and Glass

Ocelot's weakness is actually reloading, so Roland has him beat there, I admit.

Flathearty and his gang of 17 soldiers that consisted of of Type 3 Vampires, Low Men, and Taheen. All are killed before they could fire their own guns back. Flathearty himself is killed while halfway drawing his gun by Roland who still had his hand up to his mouth. In this Roland with the super speed compared to Flathearty, fires off two shots. In a split second as stated, Eddie fire 6 shots, then Roland reloading his two fired another 6, then Eddie who reloaded again fired another 5 shots. All in the time that these train soliders could bring up there own weapons. Dark Tower

Alright now THIS is what I'm talking about, although more so for Eddie than Roland. The way I'm reading it, Eddie killed six men, reloaded his gun, then killed an unspecified number more but presumably emptied his revolver, and the narration specifically states that nobody had the chance to fire a single round. Meanwhile Roland beat Flathearty despite his hand being farther away, which isn't half bad although certainly nothing to put him on Ocelot's level, but he then goes on to kill five more men before they can react.

I think we can agree Eddie performed better in this situation, although that just speaks higher of Roland since he is way faster than Eddie (unless you're taking a few of these excerpts out of context, eh?)

I mean emptying his chamber, reloading, then emptying his chamber again all before anybody can react? That is insane. And he's STILL nothing compared to Roland? Jeez.

I'm not really sure what's faster, this scene, or Ocelot drawing and heart shotting Fortune before she could pull her trigger. I think I would have to go with Ocelot vs Fortune since Fortune had superhuman reaction time, to the extent of keeping up with dozens of mach 2 missiles and expertly guiding each of them through and around Snake, Raiden, Solidus, and herself without any of them being exposed, while bleeding out extensively, whereas Ocelot humiliated her when she was at 100% and already had her weapon aimed and finger on the trigger. Fortune has extremely, extremely superhuman reaction time, which in my opinion would make outreacting her a bit harder than outreacting about 10 men, even if Eddie reloaded in the midst of it.

But that's still extremely over the top speed for Eddie. If he and Roland have more feats like that, I might reconsider things. But at the moment, I think anybody being sensible can see that Ocelot really is capable of a lot more than Roland is when it comes to trickshots and quickdraw, but Roland likely has the advantage in accuracy and reloading speed. Unlike Roland, Ocelot is a complete super soldier all around with bullet timing speed, and gunslinging just happens to be his specialty. But he's fast all around; senses, reflexes, and movement. He proves that in this scene when he draws his revolver to Raiden's face to execute him, but immediately senses the Cyborg Ninja coming down to ambush him and recoils his hand just as her sword comes down.

Ocelot had no warning or indication that the Ninja was coming; she made no sound, she just fell from the sky, and he wasn't looking in that direction. Ocelot was saved through sheer instincts, and despite being ambushed, his reflexes were sharp enough to move faster than the Ninja. This is incredibly impressive considering the Ninja immediately follows up by using her sword to deflect an entire hailstorm of assault rifle fire from close range, without ricocheting any bullets into Raiden or the hostages. So Ocelot basically moved his hand faster than mach 2. This is basically the same as his outreacting Fortune, Ocelot is consistently drawing at this speed.

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This is also an example of Ocelot's sixth sense for danger, an ability that only the top tiers in Metal Gear possess, including Solid Snake, Big Boss, Venom Snake, and Liquid Snake, as well as Ocelot, evidently.

Liquid Snake (disguised as Master Miller): People who have been through war and survived develop a kind of sixth sense to warn them of danger. Trust your instincts as a soldier...

That inner voice that warns you when danger is nearby... You can't learn that in training. You've got to have survived a few firefights...seen a few friends blown away...before you learn that trick.

These strong senses are obviously a big advantage in a firefight.

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#45 Posted by AllStarSuperman (42611 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn! This thread getting good.

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#46 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Some things.

The fact Roland was always stated, and shown to be faster than Eddie ever was as Cuthbert or Eddie lifetimes show this as well. Eddie did most of the shooting that one feat,but so what when Roland was letting him. Not to mention Roland was near twice Eddie's age, and had bad arthritis at that point. Doubt he want to push himself if he did not need too, and he knew Eddie had it. The worst feat is the dog feat, and even that is a good feat due to Roland being near death.

The fact is the game scenes do not paint that fast of a draw. Or speed. Roland has quick draw, and reload and fire against faster than Vampires who are above human can react. Roland has moved faster than 30th Century Robots can react at times in the Wolves of Calla novel. Also, to be honest, Ocelot has never face half the threats Roland has. Grandfather Vampires, Powerful Demons, 30th Century Robots built in a age where multiverse hopping was the norm, powerful magic users, and super human mutants as the norm. This was his daily routine while half starved, poison, sick, aged, or whatever half the time. So forgive me if I am not going to accept Ocelot over Roland. I gladly CaV you with this though if you wish.

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#47 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@allstarsuperman: Fizz and I seem to be at an impasse. From his perspective Roland just has better feats than Ocelot, but I don't understand how he could think that way, to me Ocelot's feats are clearly just better. What do you think so far? Which one of us is crazy?

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#48 Posted by jashro44 (51716 posts) - - Show Bio

*Sigh* Why does every debate need to have a challenge a viner? What is wrong with just debating in a regular thread? I mean challenge a viners were cool at first.....But than everyone started doing them and they became less special honestly, at least IMO.

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#49 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@allstarsuperman: Fizz and I seem to be at an impasse. From his perspective Roland just has better feats than Ocelot, but I don't understand how he could think that way, to me Ocelot's feats are clearly just better. What do you think so far? Which one of us is crazy?

This is discussion of speed, and i have not touch on military tacttics, survival ability, nor the more important accuracy feats that Roland simply trumps Ocelot in as well.

@jashro44 said:

*Sigh* Why does every debate need to have a challenge a viner? What is wrong with just debating in a regular thread? I mean challenge a viners were cool at first.....But than everyone started doing them and they became less special honestly, at least IMO.

I rather debate in a CaV and see votes who win than a random piss off thread that no one will agree to the other. Its a waste of my time when i cannot get a definitive vote to see who i convince of being right :)

Also CaVs are great, same as tounreys. You just lost your love for it honestly. You barely debate anymore, and need breaks all the time. You dont have it in ya anymore I think.

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#50 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

*Sigh* Why does every debate need to have a challenge a viner? What is wrong with just debating in a regular thread? I mean challenge a viners were cool at first.....But than everyone started doing them and they became less special honestly, at least IMO.

I definitely prefer the format of debating in regular threads. In CaVs I feel inclined to make big biographies and discuss every aspect of the battle all at once, in regular threads I can just be more quick and concise. Although the voting of a CaV is always fun.