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#1 Posted by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio

Grey Fox

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***Note I am making this thread to see how everyone else rates Gray Fox. Feel free to rearrange the order of the gauntlet below in a more suitable order if you wish***

Rules

  • In character
  • Standard Gear
  • No prep
  • Win by any means
  • Gray Fox is fully healed after each fight
  • Feats from both games and comics are allowed for gray fox
  • For DC Characters both pre and post flashpoint feats apply

Location

  • Begin visible
  • Begin 50 feet apart
  • Fight takes place here:
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Gauntlet

  1. Daredevil
  2. Batman
  3. Kaine (Pre-secret wars)
  4. Deathstroke (Slade is wearing his Nth metal instead of his Ikon suit)
  5. Wolverine
  6. Black Panther
  7. Gorgon
  8. Spider-Man (Morals off)
  9. Iron Fist & Luke Cage
  10. Darth Vader (Cannot use his force powers directly on Gray Fox)

Who wins and why?

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#2 Posted by lubub55 (12943 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by lubub55 (12943 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Edited by lubub55 (12943 posts) - - Show Bio

He should be able to clear. I might even say with ease.

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#6 Posted by deactivated-5c440d93be848 (169 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by Warlockmage (9312 posts) - - Show Bio

wow i can't believe Kaine is so low on this gauntlet.

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#8 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43249 posts) - - Show Bio

Well Daredevils totally beaten sword using ninjas before......don't see why this guys any different then a regular Hand ninja.

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#9 Edited by Sy8000 (35497 posts) - - Show Bio

Grey Fox is so weird for me...I think a smart fighting Batman would win and if not Kaine beats him senseless.

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#10 Edited by GCPD (421 posts) - - Show Bio

@warlockmage: yea me neither.

He should be right next to peter. Kaine vs Peter would be a close fight and peter is too high imo.

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#11 Posted by lubub55 (12943 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by GCPD (421 posts) - - Show Bio

stops at Black Panther. similar skill and speed feats but TChalla has the gear advantage.

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#13 Posted by Sy8000 (35497 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by lubub55 (12943 posts) - - Show Bio

@gcpd: What about Frank's ridiculous strength advantage?

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#15 Posted by Warlockmage (9312 posts) - - Show Bio

doesnt beat Kaine or Wolvie.

lol at him clearing with "ease"

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#16 Edited by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio

@gcpd said:

@warlockmage: yea me neither.

He should be right next to peter. Kaine vs Peter would be a close fight and peter is to high imo.

Kaine is awesome but I feel him not having spider-sense is a big deal even considering Kaines greater physicals. Peter being morals off (not to mention this is current Peter with all his new tech as well) takes away Kaines advantage of being more brutal. Kaine is faster, stronger, and more durable but I would argue based on feats the gap isn't big in terms of speed and strength (its negligible). What sets Kaine so low on this gauntlet is his durability doesn't help against Gray Fox. The only other thing Kaine has is his stealth suit which warps sound and light however not only does he use it sparingly but gray fox can sense air currents which is how he deflects bullets IIRC so not sure if it even matters.

I don't want to debate my own thread I'm just explaining why I placed Kaine where he is.

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#17 Posted by lubub55 (12943 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: Considering Frank was still able to fight after getting crushed by Metal Gear REX and was able to no-sell missiles from vulcan cannons I don't see explosives being that much of a factor. Then we have to take into consideration Frank's gear which includes a High-Frequency blade capable of easily cutting through everything, an energy cannon more powerful than a Stinger missile launcher, stealth camo and the ability to detect changes in air pressure to negate stealth.

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#18 Edited by lubub55 (12943 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Being able to deflect bullets is more to do with his speed, considering he could do it as a child before he got the exoskeleton which allowed him to detect changes in air pressure.

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#19 Posted by lubub55 (12943 posts) - - Show Bio

That Gray Fox picture looks really cool.

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#20 Posted by GCPD (421 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Edited by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55 said:

@jashro44: Being able to deflect bullets is more to do with his speed, considering he could do it as a child before he got the exoskeleton which allowed him to detect changes in air pressure.

My bad I misremembered the quote.

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#22 Posted by GCPD (421 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: "What about Frank's ridiculous strength advantage?"

ridiculous strength advantage ? They should be around the same level in strength.

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#23 Posted by lubub55 (12943 posts) - - Show Bio

@gcpd said:

@lubub55: "What about Frank's ridiculous strength advantage?"

ridiculous strength advantage ? They should be around the same level in strength.

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Cuts four men in half with a single swing of his sword as a child.

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Creates shockwaves when he lands after jumps.

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Slams people so hard into steel walls that they dent and crack them.

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Easily breaks a soldier's arm.

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Effortlessly holds a soldier up with one hand using his sword and then kicks him into a wall.

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Kicks a section of the ceiling at Solid Snake.

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Holds up the 556 ton Metal Gear REX with one hand and then pushes it off of him whilst talking to Snake and not maxing out.

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Breaks the lock off a metal prison door.

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#24 Edited by GCPD (421 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: the feats are all impressive but BP has also some impressive onces.

He

- stopped a charging elephant with his bare hands

- lifted trees

- wrestled Giant Aligators

- And cracked asphalt/ concrete with a stomp to the ground

Black Panther fights casually multi-tonner opponents, which are stronger than him and he has no problem keeping up with them.

Im pretty sure Frank goes down here.

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#25 Edited by GCPD (421 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55: To be fair ... I can see him maybe tagging Peter and Gorgon in a good fight. He can probably beat them with a good landed sword strike, but honestly, I dont think he can take Black Panther down, although I am pretty sure he is capable of tagging him as well sooner or later. The armor would still neutralize the hit.

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#26 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

So how does a guy who moves as fast as Spider Man, one of the top skilled beings in MGS, has 500 ton area strength, and a High Frequency blade that should cut even Adamantium not clear this gauntlet?

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#28 Posted by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio

So how does a guy who moves as fast as Spider Man, one of the top skilled beings in MGS, has 500 ton area strength, and a High Frequency blade that should cut even Adamantium not clear this gauntlet?

Well how easily do you feel gray fox clears this?

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#29 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:
@sirfizzwhizz said:

So how does a guy who moves as fast as Spider Man, one of the top skilled beings in MGS, has 500 ton area strength, and a High Frequency blade that should cut even Adamantium not clear this gauntlet?

Well how easily do you feel gray fox clears this?

Pretty easy. I mean, wolverine is the biggest challenge, and while Deathbattle is full of shit, Grey Fox should still wear down and cut through Adamantium with high frequency blade backed by 500 ton force. That is a key weakness for Adamantium.

The only other possible threat is Vader, but one punch and Vader is dead. Period. Only thing saving Vader there is precog. Also Lightsaber > HF Blade. But again, one punch or kick, hes dead!

So Other than those two matches, easy win all around.

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#30 Posted by Sy8000 (35497 posts) - - Show Bio

To be completely honest, he doesn't get to lose to Snake and still clear.

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#31 Posted by lubub55 (12943 posts) - - Show Bio

Gray Fox is underrated.

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#32 Edited by lubub55 (12943 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: That just goes to show how insanely skilled Solid Snake is. It's nothing against Gray Fox.

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#33 Posted by Sy8000 (35497 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55 said:

@highaccuser: That jus goes to show how insanely skilled Solid Snake is. It's nothing against Gray Fox.

Snake has his own feats and showings. They aren't someone who would clear this or even not get stomped by most of the gauntlet.

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#34 Posted by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty easy. I mean, wolverine is the biggest challenge, and while Deathbattle is full of shit, Grey Fox should still wear down and cut through Adamantium with high frequency blade backed by 500 ton force. That is a key weakness for Adamantium.

The only other possible threat is Vader, but one punch and Vader is dead. Period. Only thing saving Vader there is precog. Also Lightsaber > HF Blade. But again, one punch or kick, hes dead!

So Other than those two matches, easy win all around.

Well at the risk of derailing my own thread do you feel snake would clear this gauntlet easily? Because I kind of agree with highaccuser to an extent.

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#35 Posted by BruceRogers (17467 posts) - - Show Bio

Speed feats for Gray fox to suggest he won't get blitzed by Gorgon or Danny or maybe even Logan?

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#36 Edited by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio

Speed feats for Gray fox to suggest he won't get blitzed by Gorgon or Danny or maybe even Logan?

There is a respect thread in post #4.

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#37 Edited by lubub55 (12943 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Solid Snake beating Gray Fox should just elevate Snake, rather than lowering Fox. Especially when as an old man he was capable of beating Vamp when Cyborg Raiden couldn't without trickery. Many people on here could take a majority over Snake and still get stomped by Fox purely because Fox's specific skill set is much more effective against this gauntlet than Snake's. We know that Gray Fox is a 500+ tonner bullet timer with absurdly high durability and near-superhuman levels of skill based on feats and losing to Solid Snake doesn't change that or make all those feats irrelevant or outliers. It just means that Solid Snake, one of the most skille characters in fiction, possessed the skill and respectable physicals in his own right necessary to overcome Fox's advantages. You can also believe the theory that Gray Fox was holding back in their fight which I don't personally buy.

Really though Solid Snake has nothing to do with this discussion and shouldn't even be brought up. Gray Fox has his own feats and if the other characters here haven't shown the ability to match those then they lose. It's as simple as that. Losing to the guy who beats people who should be ridiculously out of his legue on a regular basis doesn't make him worse than what his feats indicate.

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#38 Edited by Thewhiteronin (1556 posts) - - Show Bio

Gray Fox is an impressive character, but at the same time, one of the most inconsistent characters I've seen...... Snake only managed to defeat him due to plot armor and storyline. Gray Fox's strength advantage over Snake should have nullified the skill factor completely where one punch from Gray Fox should have broken every bone in Snake's body. I mean the dude was able to hold up a Metal Gear's weight at the end of the game. It would be comparable to Hulk fighting against Wolverine. The only logical conclusion is that Gray Fox held back in his fight against Snake's. Gray Fox lowered himself or fought on Snake's level. I mean, the guy could cut bullets in mid-air, but can't react to Snake's punches?

Additionally, his durability showings are iffy because his highest showings show him no-selling some high-caliber weapons, but at the same time he took damage from Snake's punches. So again, plot armor (Plot armor for Snake, I mean). And in those durability feats, Gray Fox received a lot of damage on his body.

If Black Panther fights correctly using his gear, particularly his anti-metal claws, he might be able to win.

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#39 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Speed feats for Gray fox to suggest he won't get blitzed by Gorgon or Danny or maybe even Logan?

Really? He causlayy deflects and cuts in half multiple bullets from establish marksmen. He is fast enough to slice apart several soldiers before they notice they been cut in half lol.

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This is still human Grey Fox. Before his speed and strength amp of the Cyborg Suit.

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Here he cuts in half Solid Snakes bullet with ease, and appears to stand still while cutting downs automatic fire lmao.

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Here is a great feat. Cutting down several dozen trip wires to C4, before the C4 reacts and explodes LMAO.

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Here Gray Fox dances around, and out speeds Hypersonic rounds from Vulcan Canons.

So yeah, he is damn fast.

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#40 Posted by BruceRogers (17467 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz: well damn, I guess he is not getting blitzed after all

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#41 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewhiteronin: Some clarification from my Point of View.

Gray Fox's strength advantage over Snake should have nullified the skill factor completely where one punch from Gray Fox should have broken every bone in Snake's body. The only logical conclusion is that Gray Fox held back in his fight against Snake's. Gray Fox lowered himself or fought on Snake's level.

This is true, and grey Fox wanted a fair fight. He wanted to really kill Snake, he done it with the sword. He wanted a hand to hand and this would suggest not Hulk punching.

I mean, the guy could cut bullets in mid-air, but can't react to Snake's punches?

Solid snake is the more skilled fighter of the two, and Snake also has insane speed feats. Snake has consistently reacted to bullets, mach speed missiles, explosive shockwaves, Vamp, Gray Fox twice, and Solidus Snake. The last three having insane speed feats. Solid Snake if anything is more like Captain America, Deathstroke, or Daredevil in the fact you think he is only peak human, but somehow reacts to characters in the supersonic range all the time.

So there is no speed argument to down the feat.

Additionally, his durability showings are iffy because his highest showings show him no-selling some high-caliber weapons, but at the same time he took damage from Snake's punches. So again, plot armor (Plot armor for Snake, I mean). And in those durability feats, Gray Fox received a lot of damage on his body.

To be fair, Snake never KOed or really harm Grey Fox. All he did was throw him into some computers, and did a bunch of joint strikes and joint locks. Its not like he really damage Grey Fox. At the end of the spar, Grey Fox had a meltdown anyway, so the fight never finish to say he was beaten up. After the fight, in the comic, Grey Fox ran away and seem fine after his meltdown. No signs of damage. Grey Fox is also not bullet proof either. So his durability to blunt force may be decent, but he is hardly that much above, say armored Batman in durability.

@sirfizzwhizz: well damn, I guess he is not getting blitzed after all

Yeah, he is scary fast just like Raiden.

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#42 Posted by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55:

Solid Snake beating Gray Fox should just elevate Snake, rather than lowering Fox.

Normally I'm all for this logic. My issue is solid snake beats gray fox twice, with most people arguing snake was never even hit (which is pretty much a curbstomp) but than people will say gray fox still stomps the likes of deathstroke despite the fact deathstroke is a character who fights out of his weight class pretty routinely. I mean he's fought Lex in his war suit, teams of titans which includes donna troy and the likes, etc.

Yet people will still argue that gray fox easily stomps street levelers. Yes I can agree that snake beating gray fox just shows how good snake is but at the same time you have to acknowledge it shows gray fox can be beaten by street levelers.

Especially when as an old man he was capable of beating Vamp when Cyborg Raiden couldn't without trickery.

I have issues with snakes fights with vamp. In metal gear solid 2 game (I know in the comics snake wins but I view that as a different canon) snake was stomped by Vamp yet as an old man he can apparently beat him. People usually argue that snake was able to beat vamp because when he lost he was using CQB but later switched to CQC but I actually made a thread where I put solid snake limited to CQB against Old Snake and allowed Old snake to use CQC and consensus was prime snake would win.

Many people on here could take a majority over Snake and still get stomped by Fox purely because Fox's specific skill set is much more effective against this gauntlet than Snake's. We know that Gray Fox is a 500+ tonner bullet timer with absurdly high durability and near-superhuman levels of skill based on feats and losing to Solid Snake doesn't change that or make all those feats irrelevant or outliers. It just means that Solid Snake, one of the most skille characters in fiction, possessed the skill and respectable physicals in his own right necessary to overcome Fox's advantages.

Again I will acknowledge it shows how good Snake is....But how can it be said Gray Fox clears easily when Snakes physicals are either comparable to the people in this gauntlet or outright inferior? Or how can we ignore the fact characters in this gauntlet have also fought out of there weight class before?

You can also believe the theory that Gray Fox was holding back in their fight which I don't personally buy.

I feel like people only let me believe this argument when it benefits gray fox.

Really though Solid Snake has nothing to do with this discussion and shouldn't even be brought up. Gray Fox has his own feats and if the other characters here haven't shown the ability to match those then they lose. It's as simple as that. Losing to the guy who beats people who should be ridiculously out of his legue on a regular basis doesn't make him worse than what his feats indicate.

It does show that it is possible to outfight gray fox with inferior stats. And honestly when it comes to combat feats gray fox is lacking in actual wins. Yes he's held his own with big boss as a regular human before but big boss is suppose to be within the same tier as solid snake and is a character that can at least challenge solid snake in a fight. So Solid Snake to stomp a vastly more powerful version of gray fox but than for Null to be able to stalemate or compare to big boss doesn't add up.

This is what bugs me about gray fox. On paper he should stomp any street leveler. He was skilled enough to fight big boss as Null, and during the NES game it was stated that Gray Fox was snakes greatest rival within fox hound which implies that they are meant to be on the same level in terms of skill. But than when gray fox received ridiculous upgrades with made him hundreds of times stronger, gave him the ability to turn invisible, the ability to sense air currents, a blade that can supposedly cut through anything, he still some how loses to solid snake despite supposedly being a top tier fighter himself.....Something doesn't add up. I don't know if gray fox was holding back because of some honor code, or if gray fox is incompetent, or if snake beating him is just PIS.

Anyways I don't really want to debate in my own thread.

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#43 Edited by tparks (11807 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Normally I'm all for this logic. My issue is solid snake beats gray fox twice, with most people arguing snake was never even hit (which is pretty much a curbstomp) but than people will say gray fox still stomps the likes of deathstroke despite the fact deathstroke is a character who fights out of his weight class pretty routinely. I mean he's fought Lex in his war suit, teams of titans which includes donna troy and the likes, etc.

Gray Fox does have a pretty bad record, but I don't like the logic that "if Snake can beat him, then other street levelers can". I don't have a problem with people thinking a street leveler can win against him, I just can't disagree more with the method used to find this conclusion, simply because Snake wins against him. I'm not saying you're basing an opinion off of this, just bringing it up, since it's being discussed here.

Snake beating Gray Fox is perfectly in line with the established hierarchy of combat abilities in the MGS universe, which is soldier skills being the cream of the crop, and everything else, no matter how powerful, takes second fiddle. Just look at Snake's record, and how he beats them.

Stomps

  • Vulcan Raven
  • Psycho Mantis
  • Tengu Soldiers
  • The Beauty and The Beast Unit
  • Gekkos
  • Arguably Cyborg Gray Fox

Very Hard fought Wins

  • Big Boss
  • Venom Snake
  • Ocelot
  • Liquid Snake
  • Human Gray Fox

The victories that can be considered a stomp, where we see Snake not take a lick of damage or shown to struggle at all, are all against immensely powerful super humans, with a pretty insane array of abilities. Psycho Mantis could likely solo this entire gauntlet with every character attacking him at the same time, yet Snake still beat him.

The victories that are portrayed as very tough wins, and the victories that gained Snake his fame, are with Snake fighting other highly skilled soldiers.

The power hierarchy is established and very consistent in the MGS universe, so Snake beating a ninja version of Gray Fox, makes sense, and him having a very tough fight with human, but still soldier Gray Fox, also makes sense. Gray Fox was no longer fighting with soldier skills, but ninja skills, meaning he may be much more powerful, but he isn't going to have a prayer with a Snake level soldier.

This is consistent, as we see Raiden beat Vamp in MGS2, without taking a lick of damage, when he still fought as a near-clone of Solid Snake, and had nothing but street level weaponry, no HF sword, and was in a location of Vamp's choosing, that heavily favored Vamp. The odds would appear to be stacked heavily in Vamp's corner, but Raiden beats him without even taking any damage at all. When he became a cyborg ninja though, he had the toughest fight of his entire career up until Armstrong, and Vamp was even fighting without a healing factor at this point. Raiden should have stomped him in seconds if this existed in a universe besides MGS, but since he was no longer using his soldier skills, he barely beat a weakened Vamp. Getting a huge boost in stats, doesn't give a character a huge boost in martial prowess, at least not in the MGS universe.

I know most people don't accept this, because it's not the same as basically any other fictional universe, but it's still a consistent theme in MGS. So these other characters that exist in more grounded universes (at least as far as combat goes), might not be able to beat Gray Fox, even if Snake can rather easily.

I do agree with you on Deathstroke though. He might pull a victory here. He's pretty similar to Snake, that he can fight out of his weight class, has the skills of an elite soldier, and struggles the most when he fights against someone who may not be superhuman, but has the skill to match him in combat. I could agree with this logic, since it is in line with the hierarchy of power in MGS. The other characters on this list, maybe not so much.

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#44 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Normally I'm all for this logic. My issue is solid snake beats gray fox twice,

This is false. Snake did not beat him twice.

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I hardly call this beating him twice. Unless you mean human Grey Fox, in which case that was one of Snakes hardest battles, and well after Snake beat Punish Snake who is also a boss in feats.

Add to this, you say he was beaten by Big Boss and Solid Snake. Well....

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And

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Ocelot is = to Solid Snake/Big Boss. Yet twice here Grey Fox > Ocelot. We also know Fox fodderized everyone else below Ocelot, Snake, and Boss.

So his skill is not really inconsistent.

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#45 Posted by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: I think that is a fair post. I would nit pick that psycho mantis is a telepath and snake beating him is a very different type of fight but other than that I don't really have any complaints. I would have to think about the ninja skill vs soldier skill argument all though I guess your right about it being some what consistent.

@jashro44:

Normally I'm all for this logic. My issue is solid snake beats gray fox twice,

This is false. Snake did not beat him twice.

I hardly call this beating him twice. Unless you mean human Grey Fox, in which case that was one of Snakes hardest battles, and well after Snake beat Punish Snake who is also a boss in feats.

Add to this, you say he was beaten by Big Boss and Solid Snake. Well....

And

Ocelot is = to Solid Snake/Big Boss. Yet twice here Grey Fox > Ocelot. We also know Fox fodderized everyone else below Ocelot, Snake, and Boss.

So his skill is not really inconsistent.

OK fair enough snake and gray fox stalemated in there fight fight.

As for the Ocelot scans to be fair in the first fight he ambushed Ocelot and in the second fight it looks like Ocelot ran away because he was traumatized by gray fox ambushing him and taking his hand prior.

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#46 Posted by lukespeedblitz (1609 posts) - - Show Bio

To be completely honest, he doesn't get to lose to Snake and still clear.

Lmao true.

Loses to Kaine.

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#47 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

As for the Ocelot scans to be fair in the first fight he ambushed Ocelot

He was ambushed, but it was clear in the game and comic versions that it happened so fast that Ocelot had no time to react, and even dumbfounded after it happen. Pretty good stuff for speed feat for Fox. But yes, he was stealth attacked.

and in the second fight it looks like Ocelot ran away because he was traumatized by gray fox ambushing him and taking his hand prior.

Traumatized? This is Revolver Ocelot. the man who match Big Boss and Solid Snake. The man who torture for fun. The man who quadruple agent several antagonist through the whole series. The man who saw, and perfected several bloody wars. Traumatize? I think that is not a character description. If anything he simply felt incapable of winning, or at the least afraid of the possibility of losing and messing up his grand plans. But Traumatize!?

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#48 Posted by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz:

He was ambushed, but it was clear in the game and comic versions that it happened so fast that Ocelot had no time to react, and even dumbfounded after it happen. Pretty good stuff for speed feat for Fox. But yes, he was stealth attacked.

i assumed Ocelot didn't see him because of his stealth cameo rather than gray fox being that fast. Regardless if gray fox were capable of blitzing solid snake tier fighters so fast they can't perceive him than how did snake even beat him in the first place? Or are you arguing that snake isn't a match for gray fox?

Traumatized? This is Revolver Ocelot. the man who match Big Boss and Solid Snake. The man who torture for fun. The man who quadruple agent several antagonist through the whole series. The man who saw, and perfected several bloody wars. Traumatize? I think that is not a character description. If anything he simply felt incapable of winning, or at the least afraid of the possibility of losing and messing up his grand plans. But Traumatize!?

Even the most tenacious and courageous characters get traumatized. You don't have to be a coward to experience trauma. Likewise you can argue Ocelot is being written out of character by being traumatized (I don't think that is necessarily the case) but it still looks like he is traumatized.

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#49 Edited by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

i assumed Ocelot didn't see him because of his stealth cameo rather than gray fox being that fast. Regardless if gray fox were capable of blitzing solid snake tier fighters so fast they can't perceive him than how did snake even beat him in the first place? Or are you arguing that snake isn't a match for gray fox?

Snake was also having issue with Grey Fox speed. The whole fight between Snake and Grey Fox in the first fight was Snake on the back foot the whole time. If wanted too, he could have killed Snake if he just let snake shoot the gun at his armored head. Instead he hesitated for whatever reason. He could have killed Snake the second fight if he chose not to fight fair, or have his mental breakdown middle of the fight. Snake lasting and getting the most hits on Grey Fox in hand to hand is testament to Snake own speed and skill. Nothing more. I never stated otherwise. I in fact argue this point with @nickzambuto all the time.

Even the most tenacious and courageous characters get traumatized. You don't have to be a coward to experience trauma. Likewise you can argue Ocelot is being written out of character by being traumatized (I don't think that is necessarily the case) but it still looks like he is traumatized.

Again can you show me once where he was prone to being Traumatized in any fight? Thats just unfounded logic to me given his history and establish character. I can easily explain a more in character reason for what Ocelot did already. Ocelot simply felt incapable of winning, or at the least afraid of the possibility of losing and messing up his grand plans.

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#50 Posted by jashro44 (53170 posts) - - Show Bio

@sirfizzwhizz:

Snake was also having issue with Grey Fox speed. The whole fight between Snake and Grey Fox in the first fight was Snake on the back foot the whole time. If wanted too, he could have killed Snake if he just let snake shoot the gun at his armored head. Instead he hesitated for whatever reason. He could have killed Snake the second fight if he chose not to fight fair, or have his mental breakdown middle of the fight. Snake lasting and getting the most hits on Grey Fox in hand to hand is testament to Snake own speed and skill. Nothing more. I never stated otherwise. I in fact argue this point with nickzambuto all the time.

OK.....So for the record you do believe in an all out fight Gray Fox>Snake?

Again can you show me once where he was prone to being Traumatized in any fight? Thats just unfounded logic to me given his history and establish character. I can easily explain a more in character reason for what Ocelot did already. Ocelot simply felt incapable of winning, or at the least afraid of the possibility of losing and messing up his grand plans.

Well my argument is Ocelot was traumatized from gray fox cutting his hand off so no I can't show you Ocelot is prone to trauma because that isn't my argument. I'm not saying Ocelot suffers from Trauma in all his fights just his fights with Gray Fox because Frank gave him a traumatic experience (cut his hand off).