Grant Ward (MCU) vs Oliver Queen (CW)

Most current (healthy) versions of both characters (Ward pre-death and injury in season 3, Oliver Queen currently in season 4). Both are unarmed and wearing street clothes, and this is strictly a H2H combat fight. The fight takes place in a back alley in Star City and it is to the death or incapacitation.

Who wins and why?

Ollie stomps him. In before the thread becomes all about choreography and what show is better.

Ward has better feats and skills. =)

Ward. He has better feats against superhuman opponents, as well as better feats against characters of his skill level.

Ollie.

Oliver has better feats.

It's not exactly hard to tell which show is better right now. Season 4 is a crapshow,

Ollie handily

Ward takes this IMO. Why, you ask?

Taken from a post I made in another Oliver vs Grant Ward thread, 15 days ago:

After going through some Agents of Shield/Arrow fight sequences, my views on Oliver's skill and capabilities have changed somewhat.

In a purely h2h fight, contrary to popular belief, this is a lot closer then people think. Both Oliver and Ward are highly skilled in melee, but one thing people tend to forget is that after his training with Ra's al Ghul, Oliver became a master with a sword. His prowess without a sword stayed relatively the same. Now, this is somewhat unreleted to the rounds, but depending on the melee circumstances, a character's skill may change. In a swordfight, Oliver could almost rival Ra's al Ghul and recently curbstomped Malcom Merlyn. Outside of a swordfight, his melee skills could be put to the test by people of far less ability than Ra's al Ghul (such as Damien Darhk, Anarky with his electric batons, etc).

To further clarify, I think what people miss when they acknowledge Oliver's jobbing in S4 is that, while training with Malcom and Ra's basically made him a master wielding a sword, that doesn't necessarily mean his other areas of skill were raised with his training (such as his skill in melee with or without a bow).

We don't have a ton Oliver fighting in melee without a bow (or a sword), but from what we do have, I'm going to give this battle to Ward in a close fight. I think one of Oliver's most impressive h2h feats comes from his fight with Mr Blank, where he showed good skill, agility, and cleverness in using the environment to his advantage. However, Ward is impressively skilled in his own right, and I recommend going to this video to see some of his melee feats.

Most recently, Ward was able to give Coulson a struggle after having been shot twice, and with his hands bound. Mostly seen in season 1,Ward has experience with going up against multiple in h2h enemies and coming out on top (enemies that I'd say are arguably more dangerous than the thugs and crooks Arrow is use to facing). (From Season 2), while handcuffed and put in the back of a transport vehicle (surrounded by three armed... SWAT? Agents?), he escaped the handcuffs by breaking his wrist, and then to take out all three through skill and swiftness.

Ollie still wins by a long shot

In H2H I have to give it to ward, although it'd be close.

@nickzambuto

@allstarsuperman: If we can't use choreography to judge skill then how else would we?

@mk39: By what the character actually accomplished, duh. John Wick and Netflix Daredevil have some pretty sweet moves against thugs, but at the end of the day it's thugs....... Arrow fodderizes Ninjas and Elite Soldiers, he takes down superhumans, etc. His choreography isn't amazing, like it used to be, but his actual feats are better then ever.

badass

@orion_savage: Thanks!

Ward. I don't LIKE Ward, and I even think he's a little over rates. I KNOW Oliver is over rated, by a lot. I'd say they're roughly equal. The only factor here is the Ward is FAR more ruthless and willing to go for the kill and the cheap shot WAY before Oliver would ever think about it (Season 4 wise). In a contest between two equals (actually in most any combat) the person who cheats first and the most will almost always win.

@allstarsuperman:

I see your point, but where do we draw the line? What if a show or movie claims it's characters/mooks are the best of the best but upon observation it's clear that they can't fight for shit? Because shows have done that. Xena and Worf are considered great fighters in their universes, but you wouldn't know that from their fight scenes.

Oliver 6/10 times

@mk39: By feats. Its that simple. If a LoA ninja solos a squad of cops and catches an arrow. Then we know what they are capable of. How they move in a fight, is important, but if we know they are skilled, then it's not THAT important. I don't understand why people piss their pants when fodder gets fodderized. Just because someone is beaten easily, doesn't mean they couldnt have been very skilled.

@allstarsuperman:

That's still operating under the assumption that all mooks are equal, and contrary to popular belief, that is not the case. If say, in a movie, 10 highly trained assassins simply charge at the hero one at a time and allow the hero to deck them in the face, that does not make the hero more skilled than another hero who beats one less dignified but more competent thug with great difficulty, because the second hero has shown that he/she can deal with threats that actually know what they're doing. Of course, the mooks in Arrow aren't that incompetent, but it proves my point regardless. Think about it this way. Do those cops the LoA ninja beat have feats of their own? Against who? Do those people have feats. Relying on feats completely leads to an infinite regress, which is why the manner in which foes are dispatched are more important than arbitrary titles.

@mk39: You hit the nail on the head.

Arrow frequently have the main characters take down groups in unconvincing manner, groups that should be well trained taken down by a jab or a leg sweep.

Yes the writers might have an idea of how good a fighter should be, but it's up to them and the production team to convey that idea to the audience believably.

The ghost soldiers doesn't use their guns in fights, they practically run up to the main characters one at a time just to get punched.

These soldiers are supposed to elite special forces soldiers, but they just end up looking like dumb thugs without weapon training.

The league ninja are the same thing, they were kind of impressive during season 2, but after that the writers and production team failed to show them as the threat that they should be, thus it's not really fair to hold them up as the elite trained assassin instead just as more disposable fodders.

In summery you can't really judge fodders on titles, yes they might be assassins/ninjas/elite soldiers in this show, but looking at their feats they are no better than thugs in other fictions.

This question is for everyone with knowledge on both of these characters: What actual pure H2H feats does Oliver have that can compete with Ward's (not CQC fights with his bow, just H2H)?

Bobbi, Ward, May, Hunter and Coulson all run at Oliver, they flail their arms wildly and kick in his general direction. Ollie responds with a pirouette, hitting them all with his bow as he spins. They groan and fall to the ground, unconscious. Flawless victory.

Stephen Amell looks into the camera and walks towards it.

Arrow symbol appears.

Cut to break.

Yeah, I can see that^

That only works if your cheating is successful. If not, you do nothing but give your opponent all the more reason to cheat.

I can't. I mean, as a joke, sure.

@scouterv: True, knowing HOW to cheat is actually an important skill, but if you know how to capitalize on it, it'll win a good 75% (if not more) of the fight for you (or such has been my experience...I never liked to fight, and avoided it whenever I could, but always thought the notion of a "fair" fight was ludicrous). If you fail, yeah, you'll just REALLY piss off your opponent.

Yeah...the entire notion of it is honestly ridiculous. In a real fight, you are required to be undefeated or you die. "Cheating" is an entirely sportive term. In combat or survival, there is no such thing.

The real problem with "dirty" techniques is that they simply cannot be practiced to the same effect that safe "techniques" can. That is basically the entire foundation of Judo. So yeah, "dirty" techniques do work, but you will never be nearly as proficient at applying them as a wrestler will be at shooting a takedown, a boxer at throwing a cross, a Jiujitsuka throwing a submission, or Judoka throwing pretty much whoever they want. The simple fact is, they can practice those techniques a LOT more, and a LOT harder, in far more realistic conditions, against a fully resisting opponent, then any "dirty" or "deadly" techique could ever be practiced; simply because the safety of your partners is a concern.

Eye gouging for example, hurts...but it won't stop a TD, and now you're mounted by a really pissed off guy that you just tried to gouge. Good luck. Hopefully tey don't decide that you're eyes are as offensive to them as theirs obviously were to you.

It's why most good combative training focuses on giving you "combative" mindset rather then a whole bunch of killing techniques.

[/edit] Sorry, off topic ramble.

@paytience: Rambling is nooo problem. The issue with "cheating" in a no kidding "combatives" or hand to hand combat situation is commitment. You can't be squeamish, or be afraid of what will happen if you fail.

This is my personal assumption. i've (almost never..in which case I didn't use "dirty"techniques) haven't fought someone who didn't MAKE me fight them. I don't want to fight, I have walked away from fights, been called a coward, the P word, you name it. If someone puts their hands on my, my assumption is they mean to do me serious physical harm or worse, in which case, it's them or me. Mind you, I've tried EVERYthing else. Fights are almost ALWAYS stupid, and I can think of ONE that was ever worth the effort or pain caused to me or my opponent. Sparring is a different matter. I dig the HECK out of sparring. You get to be in the thick of a "fight" where you don't have to really hurt anyone, you get a similar sense of the second to second "chess match" only physically. You win or lose according to your talent, fitness, training, skill, sometimes luck, but it's just AWESOME. Again though, nobody gets hurt and you don't have to treat it like life or death. The HIGH during and after is only beaten by ONE thing, and that's a whole different one on one kind of thing :). So...that's MY ramble. ;)

Yeah Ollie gets stomped

@thesuperor@lubub55: Oh yes.

No

Ward

Oliver by logic.

Ward by feats.

@nfactor1995: Shit. I was going to make a joke about Ward being unbeatable and completely above Oliver's level. Then I realized people actually believe Ward wins this fight...

Oliver wins 11/10 times. Ward has a chance against season 1 Ollie.

Not really. Like not at all tbh...

Which feats does Ward have to put him above Ollie, or even close to Ollie?

@thesuperor: What pure h2h feats does Oliver have that put him above Ward? Anyway, I still think that Oliver should win this but tbh, Ward has far better h2h feats.

Lol this is idiotic. You can tell who only watches one of the shows.

Are you discounting every time Oliver has performed a h2h feat, but was carrying his bow? Carrying a bow does not disqualify those feats as h2h showings, sure they are not unarmed, but you can't completely discount them as feats. That would be like discounting all of Cap's feats because he was carrying a shield or Daredevil for carrying batons. That is ridiculous. As for actual unarmed feats, he has taken out 6 ninjas, like 8 of the count's men while being under the influence of Vertigo, defeated Damien Darhk, defeated Kovar. I remember Ward's best feat was beating a dozen S.H.I.E.L.D agents, which happened mostly off screen... And he struggled like hell.

Oliver has better strength, speed, durability, endurance and skill. There is not a single aspect where Ward is superior to Ollie. If you look at their feats against fodder, who has better feats? Ollie. If we look at their feats against well established opponents, who has better feats? Ollie.

The only argument people used to throw around for Ward beating Ollie is the fact that Ward held his own against a superhuman whereas Ollie struggled against mirakuru users, which is some very flawed logic. Oliver has now replicated those feats (only done it better) against Damien Darhk and Derek Sampson.

Arrow shouldn't be close unless I'm missing crazy Ward feats

@thesuperor: Id also like to add, Wards feat of soloing a dozen shield agents is overblown. One, it wasn't a dozen, two, he used ICER rounds on some of them, got overwhelmed in H2H, and needed a knife to finish off the rest.

He's distinctly below Ollies skill level.

@thesuperor:

Are you discounting every time Oliver has performed a h2h feat, but was carrying his bow?

Yes, I am.

Carrying a bow does not disqualify those feats as h2h showings, sure they are not unarmed, but you can't completely discount them as feats.

Yes, it does. Using a bow as a melee weapon in a fight is the same as using, say, a sword or a staff. So it can't be counted as a pure h2h feat.

That would be like discounting all of Cap's feats because he was carrying a shield or Daredevil for carrying batons. That is ridiculous.

Yes, those are not pure h2h feats either. See? I'm not biased. But unlike Oliver, Cap and Matt actually have unarmed feats.

As for actual unarmed feats, he has taken out 6 ninjas, like 8 of the count's men while being under the influence of Vertigo,

That one feat doesn't even come close to putting him above Ward.

defeated Damien Darhk, defeated Kovar.

And what are Kovar's and Darhk's h2h feats again?

I remember Ward's best feat was beating a dozen S.H.I.E.L.D agents, which happened mostly off screen... And he struggled like hell.

Yes, that and stalemating May. Still better than anything Oliver has ever pulled off.

Oliver has better strength, speed, durability, endurance and skill.

Debatable but irrelevant anyway. We are debating who has better feats, not who would win because I've already said that Oliver would win.

There is not a single aspect where Ward is superior to Ollie. If you look at their feats against fodder, who has better feats? Ollie. If we look at their feats against well established opponents, who has better feats? Ollie.

Wrong. Ward has better feats, both against fodder and established opponents. He stalemated May who has more h2h feats than all Arrow characters combined.

Btw, I still don't understand why we are arguing? I've already said more than once that Oliver wins.

Arrow though he doesn't have a lot of feats without the bow he does have some great feats like stomping Mr. Blank, fighting multiple thugs while on Vertigo, after being disarmed by Cyrus Gold he does manage to slightly hurt him.

Ollie.

Lol at three up.

Backing Ward. He's given May hell, and May has an even more impressive track record against superhumans than Oliver does. He’s also a better defensive fighter, which I think would be an advantage for him.

Ultimately, I think an elite specialist/special agent like Ward would be able to win this fight. Oliver's good enough to make it very tough, though.

@the_magister: How strong are the super humans that May faces because Ollie is gonna be hard to put down

Ollie does have some notable wins against superhumans and metas like Cyrus Gold, Derek Sampson, and Flash