Gold Experience Requiem Vs Yhwach

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AlexTheBoss

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#101  Edited By AlexTheBoss

@ecoblitz: Diovolo is sub building level, lmao. Having the ability to erase time doesn't make him universal.

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JOVIOLMA

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Didn't needed a bump, GER resets Yhwach's actions and will to zero and puts him in Infinite Death Loop.

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RikuYamaha

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@joviolma said:

Didn't needed a bump, GER resets Yhwach's actions and will to zero and puts him in Infinite Death Loop.

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AlexTheBoss

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#104  Edited By AlexTheBoss

@joviolma: @rikuyamaha: Then Yhwach changes the future so that never happened. And if GER can't kill him in the first place, being able to put him in a death loop is questionable. Yhwach also has the power to see, understand, and nullify all abilities, so it's possibly they would just go back and forth nullifying each others powers.

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decaf_wizard

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Jesus christ this didn't need to be bumped, GER just stomps

TIME MANIPULATION

ALREADY FAILED

TO DO ANYTHING

TO GER

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JOVIOLMA

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@alextheboss: Ain't happening, GER RtZ affected the reality that was destined to happen and rendered Epitaph useless against him, he can simple RtZ Yhwach's resurrection, not to mention, Diavolo couldn't use his Precognition and his KG inside the Deathverse, so Yhwach use his Almighty or anything of that sort inside the Deathverse is also questionable. And what durability Yhwach has when his whole will is in zero ? he shouldn't be any reiatsu on his body as far I'm concerned at this point. And in case you are not aware, RtZ has resistance against precognition as it wasn't present in Diavolo's Premonition.

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EcoBlitz

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@alextheboss: I don’t think he can bust a universe... I literally explained in which was he is universal...

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MrViking

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IDK If giornno can activate the time ability after getting nullified by Almighty .

Then he can win.

If Ywach use the almighty first , than he win.

If Ywach use the Almighty first , he can just play around , and stomp then.

Wonder if Ywach can change the future when under giornno time ability .

Guess thats normal Almighty Ywach , so Pre SK absorb .

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AlexTheBoss

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@decaf_wizard: Diovolo’s time power and Yhwach’s are quite different. Diovolo makes it so people aren’t aware during his skilled time, but GER remained aware. Yhwach attacks via the future, so GER will need to be aware on multiple points of a timeline rather than just one. I actually do think GER has a good chance of countering the Almighty’s attacks, but the problem is GER has no real way of permanently putting down Yhwach. He isn’t powerful enough to even damage him, so putting him in a death loop is questionable. Even if the death loop does work, he needs to touch Yhwach first, and since Yhwach will see the death loop before it happens and will be able to see the stand, he will never let Giorno tag him.

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FlashingSabre

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@mrviking: GER is automatic, and transcends time. The instant Juha activates the Almighty GER automatically activates and resets it to before it was activated. Juha literally cannot use his ability against Giorno.

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EcoBlitz

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@alextheboss: Diavolo doesn’t not make it... the time period never existed so you can’t remember something that never happened.

GER is immune to precog.

He’s not seeing the death loop because ger is immune to precog

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FlashingSabre

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@alextheboss: KC doesn't erase perception of time. It literally skips over time on a universal scale. GER transcends time all together to beat it.

A do agree Giorno can't actually kill him, since, IMO, death loop can't be activated unless Giorno actually kills his opponent.

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baph

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GER stomps.

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AlexTheBoss

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@ecoblitz:

Diavolo doesn’t not make it... the time period never existed so you can’t remember something that never happened.

Yes I know, but hax doesn't apply to the tier of a character in that way. With that same logic the person who can stop time in fairy tail is universal and Natsu who broke free of the time stop is universal+.

GER is immune to precog.

He’s not seeing the death loop because ger is immune to precog

GER wasn't immune to precog, it just stopped the vision from ever happening. What Diovolo saw would have happened if GER did not reset him back to 0. The difference with Yhwach is that he will see all the possible future and have complete knowledge on GER as his ability grants him the understanding of his opponents powers. Diovolo's pre cog does not do this.

GER will nullify everything Yhwach throws at him, while Yhwach will understand GER and never allow it to put him in a death loop. Hence a stalemate. If GER ever gets more feats to show off what it can really do I can see it winning. Just not with the lack of feats it has. Before putting Diovolo in a death loop he cracked King Crimson's head open (which would be a death shot to Diovolo), so it is highly possible GER needs to actually inflict fatal damage before putting someone in a death loop, and if his punches aren't strong enough to kill the enemy he might not be able to do it.

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AlexTheBoss

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@flashingsabre:

KC doesn't erase perception of time. It literally skips over time on a universal scale.

Yes, but time still seeming flows during the erased time, as everyone keeps doing what they would be doing. But yes, the time is technically erased on a universal scale.

GER transcends time all together to beat it.

GER definitely transcends time on at least some level.

A do agree Giorno can't actually kill him, since, IMO, death loop can't be activated unless Giorno actually kills his opponent.

Ya so we pretty much agree. That's why I think it's a stalemate.

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AlexTheBoss

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@ecoblitz:

I don’t think he can bust a universe... I literally explained in which was he is universal...

But that is pretty irrelevant, as I said in my above post, you might as well call Natsu a universal character.

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AlexTheBoss

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@joviolma:

Ain't happening, GER RtZ affected the reality that was destined to happen and rendered Epitaph useless against him,

Epitaph is garbage compared to the Almighty. And Epitaph was working, GER just stopped the event from reaching the truth.

he can simple RtZ Yhwach's resurrection,

But then I can say Yhwach will nullify that. They both have power nulification, at this point it's an argument of NLF and GER has no feats to say he can even scratch Yhwach let alone kill him.

not to mention, Diavolo couldn't use his Precognition and his KG inside the Deathverse,

Stands and their users can be sperrated, and King Crimson was already arguably destroyed when GER pummeled him. Diovolo might have been in just too much shock to use it in the first place, because Diavolo never once said he couldn't use king crimson.

so Yhwach use his Almighty or anything of that sort inside the Deathverse is also questionable.

I agree, a lot of things are questionable here.

And what durability Yhwach has when his whole will is in zero ?

Even BoS Kenpachi just casually standing in one place with no will was to durable for shikai Ichigo to even cut. Yhwach probably couldn't even be scratched while sleeping tbh. Also GER has never on panel made someone give up. Setting someone's will back to 0 could arguably mean setting their will back to before they started their attack, it doesn't necessarily means they just give up. Diavolo constantly tried to kill Giorno up until he had his skull smashed in.

he shouldn't be any reiatsu on his body as far I'm concerned at this point. And in case you are not aware, RtZ has resistance against precognition as it wasn't present in Diavolo's Premonition.

Diavolo's precognition was going to happen, GER just everything back to 0 so it wouldn't come true. Yhwach doesn't just see 10 seconds into the future, he sees all possible timelines throughout all of time and understands all abilities he sees.

If GER just had some more feats I could see giving it the win, but as of now it only has the feats to stalemate.

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JOVIOLMA

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@joviolma:

Epitaph is garbage compared to the Almighty.

Yhwach sees possibilities with his Almighty, Epitaph sees a reality that is guarantee to occur and can only be changed via KG or when Doppio managed to learn something from it, although it changed not too much as someone's leg was cut just like it was on his precognition.

And Epitaph was working, GER just stopped the event from reaching the truth.

Exactly, Epitaph managed to see the truth that was going to happen on this fight, until RtZ activate and revert everything back to zero, from that moment, Epitaph was unable to see the truth that was actually happening on that stance, still seeing from the events GER reverted, I don't see why the same wouldn't happen to Yhwach, not to mention, if Yhwach damage GioGio the ability will activate and GER can turn his attack strength and action to zero not allowing any more damage to Giorno.

But then I can say Yhwach will nullify that.

You can't, wanna know why ? Cuz Yhwach nullifies something by looking them into the future, same ability didn't saved his butt from Fire manipulation, neither will save him from RtZ, not to mention, by dying, he will not manage to do anything anymore, Diavolo lost his KG and Epitaph in the Deathverse, Yhwach would be defenseless there.

They both have power nulification

GER's PN > Yhwach's PN as he had better null feats than him, nullify a 10 seconds time erasure > nullify conceptual ink.

at this point it's an argument of NLF and GER has no feats to say he can even scratch Yhwach let alone kill him.

Will reset to 0=Reiatsuless and Defenseless Yhwach=Zero durability feats Yhwach=Dead Mustache Man.

Stands and their users can be sperrated, and King Crimson was already arguably destroyed when GER pummeled him.

King Crimson had a damaged eye, the only one you can arguable argue this for Epitaph as he was pulling out his head, but KG was never showing dying, neither was Diavolo as he couldn't actually reach death, either Giorno can actually separate stands from the users, or either he nullified KG in the Deathverse.

Diovolo might have been in just too much shock to use it in the first place, because Diavolo never once said he couldn't use king crimson.

The fact he was unable to activate it during all the stances already says enough for me as you can see him falling to react to a simple drug addict(He mentioned his fight seconds before that) , was desperate trying to move from the coroner room and didn't consider activate KG, and was scared of little kid despite the fact he can easily kill her with his Stand, Diavolo simple forgot he had a stand ?

I agree, a lot of things are questionable here.

For example: Who would Yhwach die for the first time ? Would it be by a fodder Shinigami's hand like was Diavolo's death to a addict ?

Even BoS Kenpachi just casually standing in one place with no will was to durable for shikai Ichigo to even cut.

What evidence you have his will was 0 ? This simple means he was suppressed.

Yhwach probably couldn't even be scratched while sleeping tbh.

Nothing supports this notion as far I know.

Also GER has never on panel made someone give up.

I never said he would make Yhwach give up. He would just stand there and will have no potency on his attacks while GER can finish him off.

Setting someone's will back to 0 could arguably mean setting their will back to before they started their attack

Then this would be said, instead of claim he can make people's will return to zero

it doesn't necessarily means they just give up.

I never once said that neither said this would happen in the fight.

Diavolo constantly tried to kill Giorno up until he had his skull smashed in.

Which means he didn't used his Willpower manipulation, he only reverted everything back to normal.

Diavolo's precognition was going to happen, GER just everything back to 0 so it wouldn't come true.

This sounds like Time rewind which doesn't help as return a situation back to normal while the opponent's ability and power still the same ain't helping, GER reset everything that happened between the attack and time erase and during this Epitaph's Premonition didn't changed, it was still showing the truth from the events if they were not reset not the future of the actual reality happening, the same would happen here, Yhwach's gets RtZ'd and his precognition will show to him events of a future where the attack wasn't activate as the technique is not visible in future visions .

Yhwach doesn't just see 10 seconds into the future, he sees all possible timelines throughout all of time and understands all abilities he sees.

And he ain't seeing GER's RtZ cuz is not present in a precognition, compare this to Mimihagi where his power was useless against it.

If GER just had some more feats I could see giving it the win, but as of now it only has the feats to stalemate.

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Djibbo__

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4yrs and this still ain’t it

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EcoBlitz

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@ecoblitz:

I don’t think he can bust a universe... I literally explained in which was he is universal...

But that is pretty irrelevant, as I said in my above post, you might as well call Natsu a universal character.

Natsu has never affected an entire universe lol

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AlexTheBoss

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@joviolma:

Yhwach sees possibilities with his Almighty, Epitaph sees a reality that is guarantee to occur and can only be changed via KG or when Doppio managed to learn something from it, although it changed not too much as someone's leg was cut just like it was on his precognition.

Epitaph can't chose what vision it sees. Yhwach sees the whole timeline clearly and can change it to his liking.

Exactly, Epitaph managed to see the truth that was going to happen on this fight, until RtZ activate and revert everything back to zero, from that moment, Epitaph was unable to see the truth that was actually happening on that stance, still seeing from the events GER reverted, I don't see why the same wouldn't happen to Yhwach, not to mention, if Yhwach damage GioGio the ability will activate and GER can turn his attack strength and action to zero not allowing any more damage to Giorno.

Epitaph can only see the event. Yhwach can see and understand it. If Yhwach can understand GER he can counter.

https://i.imgur.com/QFnaDQO.png

He already used this ability to stop two conceptual attacks.

One gave him the power of an ant.

https://i.imgur.com/rvFXTou.png

https://i.imgur.com/cej4Bw5.png

And one would have completely erased his existence and would have stopped even rebirth.

https://i.imgur.com/NvA7q1w.png

You can't, wanna know why ? Cuz Yhwach nullifies something by looking them into the future, same ability didn't saved his butt from Fire manipulation, neither will save him from RtZ, not to mention, by dying, he will not manage to do anything anymore, Diavolo lost his KG and Epitaph in the Deathverse, Yhwach would be defenseless there.

Actually that's not entirely true. Yhwach was given the power of a black ant before he got the almighty. He then casually nullified it right after he got the almighty. That means he can nullify something after it already happened.

And I don't remember Yhwach ever having a problem with fire manipulation, unless you are talking about with his fight with Yamamoto in the past, but we have no idea what happened there or if his power of the almighty was the same as it is now.

GER's PN > Yhwach's PN as he had better null feats than him, nullify a 10 seconds time erasure > nullify conceptual ink.

I wouldn't' say nullifying time erasure is better than nullifying a power when you are as weak as an ant, nullifying existence erasure, and altering your own death. There is no real way to measure which would out due which. If I had to pick I would say GRE has better nullification on a conceptual level, especially since it works automatically, but that isn't enough to give him the win, that's just enough to stop himself from being killed.

Will reset to 0=Reiatsuless and Defenseless Yhwach=Zero durability feats Yhwach=Dead Mustache Man.

It has never once done this.

King Crimson had a damaged eye, the only one you can arguable argue this for Epitaph as he was pulling out his head, but KG was never showing dying, neither was Diavolo as he couldn't actually reach death, either Giorno can actually separate stands from the users, or either he nullified KG in the Deathverse.

He crakced KC's head open, that would be death blow since the damage would be transferred to the user.

The fact he was unable to activate it during all the stances already says enough for me as you can see him falling to react to a simple drug addict(He mentioned his fight seconds before that) , was desperate trying to move from the coroner room and didn't consider activate KG, and was scared of little kid despite the fact he can easily kill her with his Stand, Diavolo simple forgot he had a stand ?

For the drug guy Diavolo thought he was injured, and King Crimson has the worst stat for endurance, so it's highly possible he thought he couldn't activate it in that state. As for the others he was probably already traumatized and realized there was no escape. Even if he activated King Crimson he would have been killed some way or another. Even if it was by a heart attack or a disease. The difference between Diavlolo and Yhwach is that Diavolo is just a human while Yhwach is basically the son of god in his verse, and after absorbing the soul king he was basically the god of his verse and had the ability to erase the concept of death itself making it so the afterlife and real world fused and everyone was completely immortal.

I never said he would make Yhwach give up. He would just stand there and will have no potency on his attacks while GER can finish him off.

He has never done that either, King Crimson clearly tried to fight back and wasn't even one shot himself. If his defense was lowered to zero one punch should have wrecked him.

Then this would be said, instead of claim he can make people's will return to zero

It is said, it was stated that their actions and will turn back to zero. In other words their body and mind go back to 0. Will can mean multiple different things, so it depends on who you take it. For example Diavolo had the will to time skip and kill Jiorno, then he was about to do it but his will got reset to the point before he started the attack again. So basically he can never go through with it because his action and will keeps getting reset.

His will literally being sent to 0 would mean he would just stand there with no purpose or will in life, but that wasn't what happened, and I doubt that's how it is meant to be taken.

Also there is the fact what we are reading is a translation, and Japanese doesn't always translate to english the best, so we can't really know the exact way the author meant it.

Which means he didn't used his Willpower manipulation, he only reverted everything back to normal.

If he never actually used it, and all we have is to go off a japanese translation talking about the power, I'm not sure if we can really apply it to battle.

This sounds like Time rewind which doesn't help as return a situation back to normal while the opponent's ability and power still the same ain't helping, GER reset everything that happened between the attack and time erase and during this Epitaph's Premonition didn't changed, it was still showing the truth from the events if they were not reset not the future of the actual reality happening, the same would happen here, Yhwach's gets RtZ'd and his precognition will show to him events of a future where the attack wasn't activate as the technique is not visible in future visions .

It basically was time re-wind. Re-winding time wouldn't change the premonition if time is one continuous line. Time in Jojo seems to work that way, as epitaph's premonitions can't be changed even if you see them before hand, so in the same way, reversing time won't change the premonition. They can only be avoided via time erasure.

And he ain't seeing GER's RtZ cuz is not present in a precognition, compare this to Mimihagi where his power was useless against it.

That's because mimihagi was part of the soul king, and Yhwach even said it might have been the soul king himself. He is connected to Yhwach since Yhwach is the son of the soul king, so I don't think that translates.

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AlexTheBoss

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#122  Edited By AlexTheBoss

@ecoblitz:

Natsu has never affected an entire universe lol

He broke out of a time stop, and the time stop affected the entire universe. Did you not read my other post? I made two because I didn't see your other one at first.

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EcoBlitz

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@alextheboss: what other post. How did the time stop affect the entire universe?

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AlexTheBoss

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@ecoblitz:

what other post.

post 114

How did the time stop affect the entire universe?

That's what time stop does unless you can prove she didn't stop time in the universe. And if you ask for proof that she did, I'll ask for proof that Diavolo did. Heck if anything Diavolo has more evidence against him considering he has an E in range and needed to be within 3 meters just to attack Risotto, even with time skip, even though that makes no sense, as he is supposedly supposed to be able to skip time for 10 seconds, so he should be able to clear way more than 3 meters in that time.

Also Ultear literally reversed the time.

Time manipulation doesn't translate over to a tier a character is on, it's just a hax ability.

If it did we would have universal Jotaro almost losing to rock level rat and calling a character universal would no longer hold any weight.

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JOVIOLMA

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#125  Edited By JOVIOLMA

Epitaph can't chose what vision it sees. Yhwach sees the whole timeline clearly and can change it to his liking.

He can see the reality that is guarantee to occur, the Mustache Man change the future by jumping to one possibility to other, didn't saved him from a hot sword, ain't saving him from Willpower Manip, Causality Manipulation and Power Nullification.

Epitaph can only see the event. Yhwach can see and understand it. If Yhwach can understand GER he can counter.

He can't do nothing to GER cuz if he try to act or do anything to Giorno, the action will be reverted back and Giorno will be unharmed again, and Yhwach don't have enough feats to suggest his PL will counter GER's RtZ.

He already used this ability to stop two conceptual attacks.

One gave him the power of an ant.

He stopped one, Ichimonji, and this is not enough to counter GER's RtZ neither save him from have his willpower manipulated and his strength attack revert to 0 as well his Almighty be rendered useless post RtZ

And one would have completely erased his existence and would have stopped even rebirth.

He killed Ichibei before the technique affect him, you can see in the scan that despite everything the color black from his color was being affected , and literally nothing of this suggests he will counter GER when he couldn't nullify any of Ichigo's Raw energy attacks, physical attacks and needed to change the future to save himself of his death, the difference being, he would be throw in deathverse after being killed and his Almighty would be rendered useless showing possibilites from future that before the RtZ activation.

Actually that's not entirely true. Yhwach was given the power of a black ant before he got the almighty.

I never denied this.

He then casually nullified it right after he got the almighty.

He changed the future and saved him from the ink, Yhwach tries to applies the same with GER=Go back to zero again and Almighty GG is now useless.

That means he can nullify something after it already happened.

Or we can go by what he explained about his technique which is: Yhwach saved himself by changing the future as there are countless possibilities out there, which saved him from the Ink. Although this is not helping as he lacks the feats to counter a PL in par with GER.

And I don't remember Yhwach ever having a problem with fire manipulation, unless you are talking about with his fight with Yamamoto in the past, but we have no idea what happened there or if his power of the almighty was the same as it is now.

Yes I'm talking about his fight with Yamamoto, and we know what happened to be honest, he tried to beat the old man, lost, and his Almighty not once was said to be different from the one he had in the fight with Yama, in fact, the King of Quincy song and Jugram's statement made pretty clear he simple was going to regain his power back and nothing more.

I wouldn't' say nullifying time erasure is better than nullifying a power when you are as weak as an ant

Oh, nullify a world wide time erasure do is a better feat than nullify a simple name concept, as well is nullify a nigh perfect future vision.

nullifying existence erasure

Didn't happened, he was showed to be affected but killed Ichibei in one attack.

and altering your own death.

And lost to fire manipulation, pretty obviously he has his limitations.

There is no real way to measure which would out due which.

No Caption Provided

There actually is, one changes fate by jumping between the possibilities but has it's limitations, proved by the mustache man losing to a hot sword. The other was never countered by anyone outside games ,Yhwach's attacks and Almighty would be rendered useless and his will reverted to 0.

If I had to pick I would say GRE has better nullification on a conceptual level

:):):)

but that isn't enough to give him the win, that's just enough to stop himself from being killed.

Will and attack strength reverted to 0=Reiatsuless and Defenseless Yhwach=Zero durability feats Yhwach=Dead Mustache Man.

It has never once done this.

Is confirmed to be able to do, so unless there is feats contradicting it, yes, he can, this would be legit as me saying Yhwach can't counter Ice Manipulation cuz he don't have on panel feats proving he can. We know he can jump between possibilites and learn about a technique's use, the difference is, learn about someone's power when your actions, will and strength will still revert to zero ain't saving him.

He crakced KC's head open, that would be death blow since the damage would be transferred to the user.

And we saw that Diavolo and King Crimson were still alive even with the head cracked open, which suggest whatever killed him, wasn't the head damage but the beat-down GER applied on him.

For the drug guy Diavolo thought he was injured and King Crimson has the worst stat for endurance, so it's highly possible he thought he couldn't activate it in that state.

I don't remember statements proving your stands couldn't activate after your receive bad injuries, in fact, most feats shows that as long you are conscious they still activate and functional, not to mention, the moment the death loop started he lost his wounds against GER.

As for the others he was probably already traumatized and realized there was no escape.

He didn't seems traumatized in the Coroner stance, in fact, he seems desperate to escape there and couldn't move his body to do anything, he couldn't remember he had a stand neither tried to use it to kill a single normal woman torturing him

Even if he activated King Crimson he would have been killed some way or another. Even if it was by a heart attack or a disease

Something he had no knowledge until the hit and run stance.

The difference between Diavlolo and Yhwach is that Diavolo is just a human while Yhwach is basically the son of god in his verse

The similiar thing between them is that they both will die by GER.

and after absorbing the soul king he was basically the god of his verse and had the ability to erase the concept of death itself making it so the afterlife and real world fused and everyone was completely immortal.

Good for him, not combat applicable as he could still die since he could see futures where he died by Ichigo's hand and rewrite to resurrect himself, and even if was applicable the only answer GER will give is

No Caption Provided

He has never done that either, King Crimson clearly tried to fight back and wasn't even one shot himself

Which suggest he didn't used willpower manip against him, you just tried to use King Crimson's durability as an rebuttal and same durability stance is in a stand profile, I'm doing the same, in GER's profile is confirmed the actions, strength and will of an opponent can be reverted to zero.

If his defense was lowered to zero one punch should have wrecked him.

Which suggest GER didn't used his Willpower manip against him, not that he don't have the technique, Diavolo was already defenseless and couldn't do anything against him so there was no need to be used.

It is said, it was stated that their actions and will turn back to zero. In other words their body and mind go back to 0. Will can mean multiple different things, so it depends on who you take it.

Will just means will to me tbh.

For example Diavolo had the will to time skip and kill Jiorno, then he was about to do it but his will got reset to the point before he started the attack again.

So did GER's movements, he and Giorno returned to their original positions and Diavolo still kept with himself the memories of what happened there, unlike Giorno who wasn't aware of the RtZ, after apply the RtZ, Epitaph was useless as it couldn't show the actual reality.

So basically he can never go through with it because his action and will keeps getting reset.

This doesn't seems to make sense as rewind everything while you still outclassed in speed and power ain't saving you, the most likely is that GER simple null abilities and render them useless against him, which would explain why after that Epitaph's precognition failed to show the actual future and was showing the reality RtZ didn't occurred.

His will literally being sent to 0 would mean he would just stand there with no purpose or will in life, but that wasn't what happened

Exactly, wanna know why ? Cuz GER didn't used his WP Manipulation against Diavolo, he reverted the actions and rendered his precognition useless against him, so Diavolo couldn't do anything to predict GER's movements anymore, he couldn't even attack properly in his time erase world.

and I doubt that's how it is meant to be taken.

I don't.

Also there is the fact what we are reading is a translation, and Japanese doesn't always translate to english the best, so we can't really know the exact way the author meant it.

No Caption Provided

スタンド名――『ゴールド・エクスペリエンス・レクイエム』

本体――――――『ジョルノ・ジョバァーナ』

破壊力:なし スピード:なし 射程距離:なし

持続力:なし 精密動作性:なし 成長性:なし

能力――

スタンドが『矢』に貫かれることによって発現するスタンドパワー。

攻撃してくる相手の動作や意思の力を全て『ゼロ』に戻してしまう。

この力に殴られた者は『死んだこと』さえも『ゼロ』に戻ってしまうため、何度でも無限にくり返し『死』に続ける。

Original Host: Giorno Giovanna

Destruction power: None / Speed: None / Projection distance: None

Endurance: None / Accuracy: None / Growth potential: None

Ability: A stand power that was discovered after the stand was pierced by the "arrow."

It reverts/returns/reset the strength of an attacking opponent's action and will to "zero."

Those who have been hit by this power will have even their death reverted/returned/reset to zero ,causing an infinite cycle of death.

If he never actually used it, and all we have is to go off a japanese translation talking about the power, I'm not sure if we can really apply it to battle.

????? So what is the point in keep arguing in a battle you can't determine who is the winner ? If you want, we can simple agree to disagree, should have said this in the beginning.

It basically was time re-wind. Re-winding time wouldn't change the premonition if time is one continuous line.

Looks like Causality Manipulation and Power Nullification tbh.

Time in Jojo seems to work that way, as epitaph's premonitions can't be changed even if you see them before hand, so in the same way, reversing time won't change the premonition. They can only be avoided via time erasure.

You are not really going against anything I said so I'm not really seeing what you are trying to say here ?

That's because mimihagi was part of the soul king, and Yhwach even said it might have been the soul king himself. He is connected to Yhwach since Yhwach is the son of the soul king, so I don't think that translates.

I'm not denying Mimihagi's origin, I'm talking about the fact he could avoid his precognition with his nature, GER's RtZ rendered Epitaph nigh perfect premonition useless against him as well nullified Diavolo's Time erasure, it should have no problem render Almighty useless against him

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EcoBlitz

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@alextheboss: Why would I need to prove a negative? That’s a logical fallacy.

And the proof is the author saying so.

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AlexTheBoss

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@ecoblitz: you seemed to have missed my point. I’m not saying he doesn’t affect the entire universe. He agree he does. I’m saying time stop also affects the universe and that doesn’t make time stop characters like from Fairy Tail.

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GER wins, has already shown that precog and time deletion doesn’t really work on him. His punch isn’t exactly to kill someone, it resets their life to 0. This is why the death is infinite because the act of living doesn’t exist anymore.

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EcoBlitz

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@alextheboss: fairy tail has nothin to do with jojo. They don’t have the same authors so their time stop doesn’t affect the same range except you can prove it.

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AlexTheBoss

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@joviolma:

He can see the reality that is guarantee to occur, the Mustache Man change the future by jumping to one possibility to other, didn't saved him from a hot sword, ain't saving him from Willpower Manip, Causality Manipulation and Power Nullification.

Yhwach doesn't just hop realities. He legit changes the future. You go off on a tangent below how it says will so we should accept it as will, and Yhwach himself says he changes the future, he doesn't say he hops futures, so by your own logic that you make, you should accept Yhwach's statement at face value. He says regular people like Ichigo hop from one future to the other as they change events, but Yhwach looks at all at once and can alter them as he chooses (as long as his altering is within his own power). So he doesn't jump to a future where he didn't die, (as that would make all the other characters think he never died and it would be like a whole new reality) he literally just edits the time line and is like, lol nope I didn't die.

https://i.imgur.com/uMxLV07.png

https://i.imgur.com/Uum3K4x.png

"All I can do is influence and change the entirely of fate"

So has it is plainly stated, he does not just hop timelines, but outright alters them to his will.

He can't do nothing to GER cuz if he try to act or do anything to Giorno, the action will be reverted back and Giorno will be unharmed again, and Yhwach don't have enough feats to suggest his PL will counter GER's RtZ.

Then it's a stalemate, just like I said from the beginning.

I never denied this.

You said he nullifies things by looking into the future, but he was given the power of a black ant in the past. He was able to nullify it because the almighty gives him complete knowledge of everything, and if he knows everything about it he can undo it.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bENsitD_-vk/Vi7x1_mFZLI/AAAAAAABHAc/E-3CM1JRaUM/s16000/0610-007.jpg

He changed the future and saved him from the ink, Yhwach tries to applies the same with GER=Go back to zero again and Almighty GG is now useless.

GER won't know what Yhwach is thinking or planning in the future. GER knows when Giorno is in danger and can react and set things back to zero, but there is no proof it can read minds, so if Yhwach just decides to do something to himself or something that isn't to Giorno, GER won't know to reset it, because Yhwach can activate his power without making any sort of outside movement. Yhwach can also attack instantly in the future, so if the fight is a random encounter with no knowledge, can GER really counter Yhwach blowing up Giorno's head in the future if the attack happens instantly? GER managed to stop Diavolo because Diavolo literally walked up to him slowly, but if the attack is instant and not even in the present but the future, it's hard to say if GER can reverse it before his user is already dead.

Or we can go by what he explained about his technique which is: Yhwach saved himself by changing the future as there are countless possibilities out there, which saved him from the Ink. Although this is not helping as he lacks the feats to counter a PL in par with GER.

Excpet that's not how it's explained. It is explicitly stated that Yhwach changes the future. He said Ichigo hops form future to future, he never said that about himself, but he can if he wants. He can hop to any future he sees, and he can also alter them to his will as long as it's within his power.

Yes I'm talking about his fight with Yamamoto, and we know what happened to be honest, he tried to beat the old man, lost, and his Almighty not once was said to be different from the one he had in the fight with Yama, in fact, the King of Quincy song and Jugram's statement made pretty clear he simple was going to regain his power back and nothing more.

Yhwach said Yamamoto's bankai is different than it was before, so if Yamamoto's powers can change how can we know if Yhwach's did. And if Yamamaoto's powers changed we don't know how he beat Yhwach. For all we know his bankai used to be some extremely hax fire ability that can burn away reality or some crap. Yhwach did say Yamamoto got weaker. So to try and use an off panel fight that we have no idea what happened to try and downplay him is a bit much. Also Yamamoto beat regular Yhwach, not soul king Yhwach.

Oh, nullify a world wide time erasure do is a better feat than nullify a simple name concept, as well is nullify a nigh perfect future vision.

Nullifying time erasure and future sight is cool, but it doesn't mean he can nullify everything and anything. Those are both just time concepts, but what about powerful physical ones. Can he stop a planet from exploding? Can he stop nullify Zeno's multiverse timeline bust? What if Gremmy thinks him out of existence before GER can do anything? What if GER can't protect Giorno in the future?

Speaking of the future, is GER even permanent? It seems like when the fight was over the arrow came out of his stand, so GER may only last for while he is fighting. If that's true Yhwach can kill him in the future when he no longer has the arrow. He can even let GER pretend he got killed or if he can just run to another dimension and wait for the arrow to come out of his stand and attack when he is vulnerable.

And lost to fire manipulation, pretty obviously he has his limitations.

He didn't die though and like I said, we don't know what happened.

There actually is, one changes fate by jumping between the possibilities but has it's limitations, proved by the mustache man losing to a hot sword. The other was never countered by anyone outside games ,Yhwach's attacks and Almighty would be rendered useless and his will reverted to 0.

Yhwach doesn't just jump possibilities as said above, and he only lost because he was stabbed by an arrow that took his almighty power away, and even then his power remained for years, and he might have made a comeback if Ichigo's son didn't absorb his reiatsu.

Is confirmed to be able to do, so unless there is feats contradicting it, yes, he can,

It depends on your definition of will.

this would be legit as me saying Yhwach can't counter Ice Manipulation cuz he don't have on panel feats proving he can.

That's different because ice manipulation isn't a special power that would have any sort of counter to Yhwach's abilities.

You can't compare giving someone a conceptual power they have never used before to not being able to counter ice, which is just a regular physical property.

And we saw that Diavolo and King Crimson were still alive even with the head cracked open, which suggest whatever killed him, wasn't the head damage but the beat-down GER applied on him.

It might not have killed him right away, but it could have been fatal damage that would have caused him to bleed out.

I don't remember statements proving your stands couldn't activate after your receive bad injuries

I'm pretty sure that's what some people think "staying power" means in the stands stat section. It's either that or how long someone can keep their stand out.

The similiar thing between them is that they both will die by GER.

No Caption Provided

Good for him, not combat applicable as he could still die since he could see futures where he died by Ichigo's hand

He actually did see the possibility but ignored it thinking it was a dream, and he had his powers taken when Ichigo killed him, so he didn't have the almighty.

and rewrite to resurrect himself,

Because he didn't have the almighty when it happened, and he was arbuably coming back to life anyways, but got absorbed by Ichigo's son.

So did GER's movements, he and Giorno returned to their original positions and Diavolo still kept with himself the memories of what happened there, unlike Giorno who wasn't aware of the RtZ, after apply the RtZ, Epitaph was useless as it couldn't show the actual reality.

Exactly. GER and Giorno get reset too, so GER will keep resetting and it will be a stalemate. If you want to argue he can return Yhwach's will to 0 to the point he can actually kill him even though he has never done that, then I will argue Yhwach will kill him in the future when he is defenseless and doesn't have requiem anymore, which is something he actually does and has threatened to do.

This doesn't seems to make sense as rewind everything while you still outclassed in speed and power ain't saving you,

GER has more speed and power than King Crimson, that's why it saved him. However he doesn't have more speed and power than Yhwach.

the most likely is that GER simple null abilities and render them useless against him,

He makes them useless because they keep getting re-winded. Your punch is useless if it never lands.

which would explain why after that Epitaph's precognition failed to show the actual future and was showing the reality RtZ didn't occurred.

Yes, it didn't occur because it stopped it from reaching the truth, back tracked him to before he even time skipped, and then beat the crap out of him. However beating the crap out of him is the step that doesn't work on Yhwach, hence a stalemate.

he couldn't even attack properly in his time erase world.

Diavolo could never attack during erased time. He must resume time to attack.

????? So what is the point in keep arguing in a battle you can't determine who is the winner ? If you want, we can simple agree to disagree, should have said this in the beginning.

I never said Yhwach wins though? I've been saying it's a stalemate since the start. I'm debating GER doesn't win, I'm not debating Yhwach wins. And yes, there is a difference, lol.

I'm not denying Mimihagi's origin, I'm talking about the fact he could avoid his precognition with his nature, GER's RtZ rendered Epitaph nigh perfect premonition useless against him as well nullified Diavolo's Time erasure, it should have no problem render Almighty useless against him

Mimihagi had a resistance to the almighty because in a way he was the origin of Yhwach's power. GER does not have this same connection and there is no reason he would be immune to the almighty. He can stop Yhwach from performing actions, sure, but there is no proof the almighty wouldn't work at all.

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@ecoblitz:

fairy tail has nothin to do with jojo.

It doesn't have to be fairy tail, it could be any verse with a time stop, time rewind, or any sort of time ability. Time abilities usually affect the universe when they are used.

They don’t have the same authors so their time stop doesn’t affect the same range except you can prove it.

She said this world was hers alone when time was stopped, so at the very leas the planet's time should be stopped.

Range doesn't even matter. If Diavolo could only erase time for a 10 meter area, the planet, or the universe, it doesn't change his overall standing when it comes to power or overcoming the time eraser if you happen to be in it.

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JOVIOLMA

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Yhwach doesn't just hop realities. He legit changes the future.

Future Manipulation didn't saved him from a hot sword, it ain't saving him from GER's RtZ and Willpower Manipulation.

You go off on a tangent below how it says will so we should accept it as will, and Yhwach himself says he changes the future, he doesn't say he hops futures, so by your own logic that you make, you should accept Yhwach's statement at face value.

The difference being, unlike Yhwach,GER don't have contradictions for his statements, only the fact he didn't bothered used his Willpower manip against Diavolo or fire him another energy beam like he did in the first time, Yhwach he changes the future by jumping from one grain of sand to another as explained by himself(changing the future)

He says regular people like Ichigo hop from one future to the other as they change events, but Yhwach looks at all at once and can alter them as he chooses (as long as his altering is within his own power). So he doesn't jump to a future where he didn't die, (as that would make all the other characters think he never died and it would be like a whole new reality) he literally just edits the time line and is like, lol nope I didn't die.

https://i.imgur.com/uMxLV07.png

https://i.imgur.com/Uum3K4x.png

"All I can do is influence and change the entirely of fate"

So has it is plainly stated, he does not just hop timelines, but outright alters them to his will.

Pretty sure this was already depth explained by @azureus so I will credit him and show his work to everyone appreciate

Copy Paste

How the Almighty Works

Now, I'll just try to keep it short, and will only sum up the basic ideas here. There is this idea that the Almighty has more than Clairvoyance and Future Modification, which isn't true at all. So I'll begin by addressing where this idea comes from.

No Caption Provided

Here Yhwach 'explains' his powers to Ichibei. He doesn't even state how the ability works...just what it is. For a reason I don't know, you seem to think this is an explanation, and on top of that you think you think it states what seems to be power immunity. The worst part about this, is that it stems from only 2 panels, that are never touched on again, but somehow this is still an argument.

Now that my "eyes" are open...From this moment on, I can see everything that will unfold into the distant future. I can "know" everything that I see. And...All the "powers" I know take my side. Not only can they not be used to defeat me...they cannot even be used to harm me. That is my power. "The Almighty".

The reason for our disagreement here, is the underlined part, which seems to say that the abilities Yhwach knows side with him and he cannot be defeated by them.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

RAW TRANSLATION:

Since I've opened my eye, I can now see everything from this instant into the far future. I can know everything I see. And All of the powers I know are on my side.You can't use them to defeat me. Not even to hurt me. That's my ability. The Almighty.

Now for the most part, all of these sources say the same thing except at a few points. One of them says Yhwach will make use of a power he knows instead of "taking his side" or "Ally". Another scan states that it is nigh impossible to land a blow on him instead of being unable to hurt him. Now these examples don't prove anything yet, but although they not saying the exact same thing, they all fully establish that Yhwach has clairvoyance, but none of them elaborate how he is seemingly immune to Ichibei's powers. They just say he is without explanation.

What's really made certain here is that Yhwach can see the future, and this is repeated time and time again. At the same time we are also told it is impossible to beat him with powers that he has already seen, but again...we aren't told HOW. Just that it is.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Using all of the material above, the only thing that can be said for sure is that Yhwach can see the future. As for how he is able to accomplish what he's done so far...there is no explanation. To suggest he has some kind of power immunity is headcanon, as we are only told he that he can't be beaten, but we are not given an explanation as to how it works.

This is once again reinforced, as the people he fights themselves are plerplexed by the Almighty and have no idea how it works, only to have Yhwach defy their expectations and proceed to school them as seen with Ichibei and Ichigo.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And if I haven't made it clear it yet, I'm saying that NO ONE (The reader, and the characters barring YH/Haschwalth) knows how Yhwach is able to bypass their attacks. Atleast not yet.

Now, in regards to my own arguments regarding this very topic, I myself take a look at chapter 677. After seeing that Ichigo is completely mistaken as to what his Almighty does, Yhwach proceeds to explain to Ichigo what changing the future means. Note that he hasn't revealed the Almighty's power or said how it worksyet. This will become important later, although it won't be a shock.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Here Yhwach illustrates with grains of sand, that the future is not a single continuous path, but is composed of many possiblities. He says to change the future, is nothing more than moving from one possibility to the next. It's that simple.

However, after he has made this revelation, Ichigo still doesn't quite understand what he's getting at and tries to fight back...only to get promptly schooled again. This time though, Yhwach outright then proceeds to tell Ichigo what the Almighty is. He says that the Almighty is not just the ability to see the future, but also change it as well. This is chapter 678.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This is actually how he does all the things he does. This specific ability is what Haschwalth described was unique to only Yhwach. Everything from breaking free of Ichibei's Bankai ability, spontaneously setting up traps around Ichigo, bypassing Orihime's shield or even reviving himself revolves around this and nothing more. It's not me inserting my headcanon, but actually using the information given to form a conclusion.

On the other hand, you have one scan that says something completely vague, and any number of reasons can be given to show that it's the case. You know as well as I do, that it's not neccesarily the case. What proof do you have to suggest the reason he can't be harmed is because he's immune?

Then it's a stalemate, just like I said from the beginning.

Nope, action and will returned to zero=reiatsuless yhwach=featless durability feats=GER one shotting with a energy beam or muda barrage while he will just stand there still with zero strength on his attacks.

You said he nullifies things by looking into the future, but he was given the power of a black ant in the past.

Have you consider he simple nullified an action in the present(same hax is inferior to RtZ btw so no Almighty GG is working here) or perhaps managed to use with his eyes and changed his future ?

He was able to nullify it because the almighty gives him complete knowledge of everything, and if he knows everything about it he can undo it.

Say that to KS, Ichigo's physicals attacks, his energy barrages, and the hot sword that put him in a coma for 1000 years, yeah no, his ability that obviously have limitations ain't saving him from RtZ and ain't helping him to regain his lost willpower before he get muda'd to death and reset once again only to keep dying over and over

GER won't know what Yhwach is thinking or planning in the future.

He don't need, he would cut Giorno and the ability would apply regardless rendering everything back to normal and rendering the Almighty useless in the process like it rendered Epitaph useless.

GER knows when Giorno is in danger and can react and set things back to zero, but there is no proof it can read minds, so if Yhwach just decides to do something to himself or something that isn't to Giorno, GER won't know to reset it, because Yhwach can activate his power without making any sort of outside movement.

I never said he can read minds, but his RtZ is fast enough to save Giorno from every attack the mustache man can display against them, Yhwach uses Almighty to harm Giorno, success on his mission only for the events return to normal and his precognition be rendered useless against GioGio

Yhwach can also attack instantly in the future, so if the fight is a random encounter with no knowledge, can GER really counter Yhwach blowing up Giorno's head in the future if the attack happens instantly?

It can work fine in a world where time is erased and no movement other than Diavolo would be allowed so everything I have to say is

No Caption Provided

GER managed to stop Diavolo because Diavolo literally walked up to him slowly

No, GER was affected by the Time erasure, this was show as he still moving and was producing movements in the future, he merely activated instantly his return to zero before the final blow inside the erased world and could freely move and talk inside there after that, but he was affected first, point is, both can work instantly, so it makes no difference, but, GER will return regardless rendering in the process the Almighty useless

but if the attack is instant and not even in the present but the future, it's hard to say if GER can reverse it before his user is already dead.

We actually don't have evidence the attack is in a instant, only that happens in a extremely fast process that's all, although it wouldn't make difference, GER's RtZ would activate regardless to protect Giorno from any warm the moment he is damaged as in Jojo you don't die in a instant due to massive wounds(see Hayato and Josuke vs Kira) giving enough time for RtZ take action

Excpet that's not how it's explained. It is explicitly stated that Yhwach changes the future.

Addressed above, by jumping to a grain to another and striking from there, RtZ GG, Willpower null GG=Dead mustache man

He said Ichigo hops form future to future, he never said that about himself, but he can if he wants.

Then he said but he didn't said ?

He can hop to any future he sees, and he can also alter them to his will as long as it's within his power.

He only managed to save himself from his death when the effects of KS stopped and his powerful Almighty couldn't save him from Yamamoto's hot sword, GER can simple reset everything back to zero and render the almighty useless against him, nullify his strength attack and will and muda him to death.

Yhwach said Yamamoto's bankai is different than it was before, so if Yamamoto's powers can change how can we know if Yhwach's did.

By seeing what happened in the manga, where is the statement suggesting his Almighty changed with time ?

And if Yamamaoto's powers changed we don't know how he beat Yhwach.

We know, with a hot sword, that was all the sword was as Yhwach stated(referring to his power as fire and nothing more special)

For all we know his bankai used to be some extremely hax fire ability that can burn away reality or some crap.

And for some reason he lost that ability during their fight ?

Yhwach did say Yamamoto got weaker.

Good

So to try and use an off panel fight that we have no idea what happened to try and downplay him is a bit much.

I'm not complaining about Yama's strength, I'm talking about what put Yhwach down, a dude with a hot sword beat him up so bad he was put to sleep for 1000 years, and the only thing special with him was=Lmao, my sword can burn things

No Caption Provided

Also Yamamoto beat regular Yhwach, not soul king Yhwach.

Soul King's Yhwach Almighty as far I'm concerned never was said to be different, he merely got a power boost.

Nullifying time erasure and future sight is cool

Isn't it ? He stomps the mustache man zero diff.

but it doesn't mean he can nullify everything and anything.

It can nullify anything Yhwach has on his arsenal, yes, and notice how I never said it could nullify everything and anything, but based on it's feats and GER confidence about it's power and that no one that oppose before him would ever reach the truth, it seems enough to convince me that he was the most powerful Jojo stand during that time(enough for all his stats being regarded as none and DP use as his wallpaper the golden ratio)

Those are both just time concepts, but what about powerful physical ones.

Is an action, gets returned to zero.

Can he stop a planet from exploding?

Another action, gets returned to zero.

Can he stop nullify Zeno's multiverse timeline bust?

It's range is only Universal, any claim that it can affect 12 universes is baseless assumption so most likely no,

What if Gremmy thinks him out of existence before GER can do anything?

Only people Gremmy ever managed to do this what his very own imagination creation, and RtZ activates in an instant, even the minds of us humans live small fractions in the past, enough for the RtZ activate.

What if GER can't protect Giorno in the future

Yhwach damages Giorno, action gets returned to zero, Almighty is rendered useless.

Speaking of the future, is GER even permanent? It seems like when the fight was over the arrow came out of his stand, so GER may only last for while he is fighting.

Nothing confirm what happened to GER, in one side we have the fact the arrow fall from his head after spend minutes with him left his fate unknown, in the other we have the fact Chariot kept his Requiem form after being in contact with the arrow for a long time and that the anime scene showed that GER was already formed and under a shell before the arrow goes to his head.

If that's true Yhwach can kill him in the future when he no longer has the arrow.

We have no confirmation about GER's fate, so any assumption he is activated or deactivated in the continuation is an assumption.

He can even let GER pretend he got killed or if he can just run to another dimension and wait for

Uhhhhh, no ? If GER kills him, is the end, he would be trapped in a deathverse and that would be all.

He didn't die though and like I said

I didn't said he died, I said he lost to a dude with a Hot sword.

we don't know what happened.

We know exactly what he did, he tried to invade SS, fought a dude with a hot sword, and was stomped by said dude's fire and put to sleep, Yama was never said to have lost any ability from his Bankai over time.

Yhwach doesn't just jump possibilities as said above, and he only lost because he was stabbed by an arrow that took his almighty power away, and even then his power remained for years, and he might have made a comeback if Ichigo's son didn't absorb his reiatsu.

I never mentioned the arrow stance ? So I'm curious to know why you are bringing this.

It depends on your definition of will.

Will

That's different because ice manipulation isn't a special power that would have any sort of counter to Yhwach's abilities.

Indeed, GER is.

You can't compare giving someone a conceptual power they have never used before to not being able to counter ice, which is just a regular physical property.

GER had no problem counter future vision and nullify time erasures which already surpass every null effect Yhwach did.

It might not have killed him right away, but it could have been fatal damage that would have caused him to bleed out.

Which didn't happened, he was beat up and throw into a death loop, and posterior to that, he didn't consider use of his stand abilities even in situations he was desperate to escape.

I'm pretty sure that's what some people think "staying power" means in the stands stat section. It's either that or how long someone can keep their stand out.

Pretty sure feats shows that someone heavily damage can still keep their stands as long they are conscious.

He actually did see the possibility but ignored it thinking it was a dream, and he had his powers taken when Ichigo killed him, so he didn't have the almighty.

I'm talking about the Fatigued Getsuga stance, he was cleaved in half and killed but by using the Almighty avoided his death, the fact he needed to avoid this concept shows he could still be affected by it.

Because he didn't have the almighty when it happened, and he was arbuably coming back to life anyways, but got absorbed by Ichigo's son.

Are you paying attention to me ? I'm talking about the scene where he was cleaved in half and resurrected himself via Almighty, if his death/life manip was applicable and he wasn't affected by this concept he wouldn't need the almighty to avoid his death in the future.

Exactly. GER and Giorno get reset too, so GER will keep resetting and it will be a stalemate.

It won't, as GER and Giorno will still running or the attack while Yhwach's ability will be rendered useless, and if needed his will as well and his attack strength will also be turned to zero allowing him to beat to death a defenseless Yhwach, not to mention, GER did this one time returning the actions to zero and could successfully attack Diavolo due to his confusion of what was happening and why was his premonition wrong

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If you want to argue he can return Yhwach's will to 0 to the point he can actually kill him even though he has never done that

Difference being, we have confirmation Requiem can turn people's will to zero, not contradicted by anything as he only had 1 fight.

then I will argue Yhwach will kill him in the future when he is defenseless and doesn't have requiem anymore, which is something he actually does and has threatened to do.

I really want to see the chapter where Yhwach threatened Giorno with that statement. And again, this would be assuming something still have no official answer, nothing from manga or anime confirms what happened to GER after the fight, Giorno merely kept the arrow with himself but never said it was in case something like that happened again so he would create GER once more, whereas, anime show GER was already formed but in a shell before the arrow fuse with his head and he crack his old skin

GER has more speed and power than King Crimson, that's why it saved him. However he doesn't have more speed and power than Yhwach.

This makes no sense at all, if a moment will reset over and over, unless you have countered something with the technique, rewind time is basically put yourself in a loop, GER didn't did that, he reset the events and nullify the time erase and rendered the precognition useless against him, confusing Diavolo in the process allowing him to beat him up.

He makes them useless because they keep getting re-winded.

No, he makes them useless cuz they can't arrive at the actual truth(they can't defeat him the moment the technique is applied cuz their techniques are useless now) that's why Epitaph still showing a premonition from a reality that wasn't compatible to the one happened at that very moment GER was already muda him to death.

Your punch is useless if it never lands.

So is a rewind situation if the stats haven't changed.

Yes, it didn't occur because it stopped it from reaching the truth

Translation=Rendered the precognition useless as it wasn't showing an actual event.

back tracked him to before he even time skipped, and then beat the crap out of him.

Yes, after he gets confused why his future vision was wrong.

However beating the crap out of him is the step that doesn't work on Yhwach, hence a stalemate.

Will reset to 0=Reiatsuless and Defenseless Yhwach=Zero durability feats Yhwach=Dead Mustache Man.

Diavolo could never attack during erased time. He must resume time to attack.

Diavolo had several stances where he could, where others he couldn't, he attacked GER when time was still erased and was surprised he countered it mention no one should move in the world where time is erased, therefore he attacked him while time was erased.

I never said Yhwach wins though? I've been saying it's a stalemate since the start. I'm debating GER doesn't win, I'm not debating Yhwach wins. And yes, there is a difference, lol.

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Mimihagi had a resistance to the almighty because in a way he was the origin of Yhwach's power.

And GER has RtZ.

GER does not have this same connection and there is no reason he would be immune to the almighty.

He don't need, he can simple use RtZ, problem solved, everyone with precognition resistance can counter the Almighty, no need to be related to him.

He can stop Yhwach from performing actions, sure, but there is no proof the almighty wouldn't work at all.

There is, Epitaph's premonition was rendered useless once the RtZ activated and he can at some point reset his will and actions to zero beating the mustache man to death

@alextheboss

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Ger stomp stupid old man with ease

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#134  Edited By Godren

Wait... some of you think Yama beat Almighty Yhwach LMFAO!?

GER dies in Yhwach's presence via overwhelming reiatsu 1 shotting the wall level characters passively.

This GER wank is off the charts, idk how yall managed to wank him harder than vs wiki.

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Lol the no limits fallacy being shown here for GER and the amount of people that do not know how the ability even works is amazing

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@joviolma:

Yhwach he changes the future by jumping from one grain of sand to another as explained by himself(changing the future)

Nope, he didn't say that. He said that's how regular people change the future.

There is this idea that the Almighty has more than Clairvoyance and Future Modification, which isn't true at all.

Future modification=changing the future which is what I'm saying. He doesn't just have grains of sand to pick form, he can create his own future as long as its within his power. Though you could argue by doing that he creates a grain of sand where that happens, thus jumping to another grain of sand.

Nope, action and will returned to zero=reiatsuless yhwach=featless durability feats=GER one shotting with a energy beam or muda barrage while he will just stand there still with zero strength on his attacks.

So would you say it's a stalemate against truly immortal characters like Aizen and Zamasu?

Have you consider he simple nullified an action in the present(same hax is inferior to RtZ btw so no Almighty GG is working here) or perhaps managed to use with his eyes and changed his future ?

However he did it, he nullified an ability that was currently affecting him, and it was while he was as weak as a black ant.

Say that to KS,

Some people say KS only worked because Aizen put him under it before he achieved the almighty. Also when Yhwach sees the future, he might be seeing the illusion, so he doesn't understand it's in illusion until something happens to make him realize it. Once he understood he was being put under an illusion it didn't work again.

Ichigo's physicals attacks, his energy barrages, and the hot sword that put him in a coma for 1000 years,

Those aren't abilities, those are raw attacks. He can change the future to where he wasn't hurt, but he can't nullify a physical attack. He nullifies moves by completely understanding them, and it doesn't matter how much you understand a punch, it's still a punch.

yeah no, his ability that obviously have limitations ain't saving him from RtZ and ain't helping him to regain his lost willpower before he get muda'd to death and reset once again only to keep dying over and over

Obviously it has limitations, but so does GER, unless we go with a NLF.

He don't need, he would cut Giorno and the ability would apply regardless rendering everything back to normal and rendering the Almighty useless in the process like it rendered Epitaph useless.

What if he just teleknetically explodes Giorno like he did to Ichibei, killing him instantly before GER can even tell Giorno is being attacked? Yhwach can attack without moving a single muscle, and GER hasn't been shown to be omniscient, so without knowledge he would not know to he would have to be on guard for something like that. GER knew about time skip and can easily see through it so he saw Diavolo coming and activated his ability, but if an invisible attack that doesn't require movement comes instantly and insta kills Giorno, thus insta killing his stand, I'm not sure GER can do much in that situation. The only way he could do anything is if he resets everything in the nano second before Giorno technically dies while exploding.

but his RtZ is fast enough to save Giorno from every attack the mustache man can display against them

What if he does to Giorno's head as he did to Ichigo's sword and is just instantly holding Giorno's head in his hand?

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It can work fine in a world where time is erased and no movement other than Diavolo would be allowed so everything I have to say is

But even though that time is erased, it is still technically happening and Diavolo is aware during the seconds time is erased. Diavolo also can't attack in the erased time, while Yhwach has invisible telekinetic attacks that happen instantly.

No, GER was affected by the Time erasure, this was show as he still moving and was producing movements in the future, he merely activated instantly his return to zero before the final blow inside the erased world and could freely move and talk inside there after that, but he was affected first, point is, both can work instantly, so it makes no difference, but, GER will return regardless rendering in the process the Almighty useless

Well he was able to understand what was going on in the erased world. And maybe he just didn't feel like moving because there is no need to fight in the erased time since no damage will carry over.

We actually don't have evidence the attack is in a instant

Ichigo's sword was instantly in Yhwach's hand, there was no movement at all. The only counter would be if while trying to change the future GER just showed up and was like "NO!", which is possible, but he has never entered the future before.

Addressed above, by jumping to a grain to another and striking from there

It's not limited to just jumping grains though. I think his power is easiest to understand when compared to a video editor. You have a the ability to look into the future of the video and use an editing software to make edits to the future video that's about to happen. There are also a bunch of different videos that are the different possible futures and you can see them all at once. You can jump from one to the other, but like I said, you have an editing software to change things if you want to, you aren't just limited to the videos that already exist. In a similar way Yhwach isn't just limited to the futures that he can see, he can change it to what he wants as long as it's not out of his power.

Then he said but he didn't said ?

No, he said for Ichigo to change the future it's like jumping from one grain to the next, but he can do it to all futures. He makes this clear by saying just how Ichigo can change the future that's in front of him, he can change all the futures that exist. So he doesn't just future hop, he legit changes the future. It's made pretty clear.

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So as you can clearly see, Yhwach says he alters all futures just like Ichigo alters the one future in front of him. You can call it jumping futures if you want, but he isn't limited by a select amount of futures, he is just limited to how his own powers can effect the future.

By seeing what happened in the manga, where is the statement suggesting his Almighty changed with time ?

It could be argued that his allmighty power reached a new level after absorbing the soul king, but like I said, we have no idea how the fight with Yamamoto went down. Maybe he was beaten while his almighty was turned off, as he is able to turn it on and off.

And for some reason he lost that ability during their fight ?

I didn't say he lost it during the fight, I said it changed since then, which was confirmed already. We have no idea what the ability used to be. Adult Toshiro's ice power nullifies abilities, maybe Yamamto's fire did too. We have no clue.

Another action, gets returned to zero.

Yes, but he will have to keep constantly returning it to zero and he will be stuck in a loop trying to save himself and time will never be able to move forward unless he lets the planet explode.

Yama was never said to have lost any ability from his Bankai over time.

Well he needed his bankai to barely beat a copy of Yhwach and then the real Yhwach showed up and stomped him without the almighty. Whatever happened in the past is the past, current feats put Yhwach above bankai Yamamoto.

I never mentioned the arrow stance ? So I'm curious to know why you are bringing this.

Because it's the only reason he died. You brought up his death, and that only happened due to the arrow taking his powers from him. The first time he got "killed" was do to KS and being taken off guard. Yhwach is cocky and still acts very much like a human and can let things slip past him.

Pretty sure feats shows that someone heavily damage can still keep their stands as long they are conscious.

True, but most characters don't have an E in staying power.

I'm talking about the Fatigued Getsuga stance, he was cleaved in half and killed but by using the Almighty avoided his death, the fact he needed to avoid this concept shows he could still be affected by it.

Yes, Yhwach can be affected and killed by powerful physical attacks. GER doesn't have anything strong enough to do it though.

Are you paying attention to me ? I'm talking about the scene where he was cleaved in half and resurrected himself via Almighty, if his death/life manip was applicable and he wasn't affected by this concept he wouldn't need the almighty to avoid his death in the future.

You realize I can't read your post while righting it right? You didn't make that clear until this post.

It won't, as GER and Giorno will still running or the attack while Yhwach's ability will be rendered useless, and if needed his will as well and his attack strength will also be turned to zero allowing him to beat to death a defenseless Yhwach, not to mention, GER did this one time returning the actions to zero and could successfully attack Diavolo due to his confusion of what was happening and why was his premonition wrong

He hasn't shown the ability to render someone useless and attack at the same time. Do you have evidence eh can use two abilities at once?

Difference being, we have confirmation Requiem can turn people's will to zero, not contradicted by anything as he only had 1 fight.

Like I said, will in that context can mean something else. Diavolo was trying to punch Giorno, but then he realized his body and was still back where it started and his will wasn't matching what he was trying to do, so you could say his will was set to 0 since his body wasn't following what he actually wanted. But time needs to be set back for that and GER didn't show the ability that he could attack while Diavolo is helpless. GER's defensive ability is automatic, but its offensive ability is controlled by Giorno.

I really want to see the chapter where Yhwach threatened Giorno with that statement.

You know that's not what I meant. Yhwach threatened to kill Ichigo at the point in time in the future where he is happiest. That means he can attack years int he future if he wants to if what he is saying is true.

And again, this would be assuming something still have no official answer, nothing from manga or anime confirms what happened to GER after the fight, Giorno merely kept the arrow with himself but never said it was in case something like that happened again so he would create GER once more, whereas, anime show GER was already formed but in a shell before the arrow fuse with his head and he crack his old skin

So would you agree if he did lose the power of requiem after the fight he would have the possibility of falling victim to a future attack?

This makes no sense at all, if a moment will reset over and over, unless you have countered something with the technique, rewind time is basically put yourself in a loop, GER didn't did that, he reset the events and nullify the time erase and rendered the precognition useless against him, confusing Diavolo in the process allowing him to beat him up.

He did put himself in a loop, but Giorno wasn't actually aware, so he didn't notice the loop at all. Only Diavolo and GER noticed it.

No, he makes them useless cuz they can't arrive at the actual truth(they can't defeat him the moment the technique is applied cuz their techniques are useless now) that's why Epitaph still showing a premonition from a reality that wasn't compatible to the one happened at that very moment GER was already muda him to death.

Yes, the can't arrive at the truth because their actions go back to 0, which is another way of rewinding. If they go back to zero that means they must have went past 0 in the first place, and your actions going from a higher number back to 0 would imply a rewind. I mean it literally shows Diavolo rewinding back through time.

So is a rewind situation if the stats haven't changed.

Yeah, that's why I think it's useless here and it's a stalemate. Just because you think a rewind situation doesn't mean things have changed doesn't mean that's not how it works. I think you are saying "if it works like a rewind both characters are back in the same situation and nobody is in a better situation" which may be true to a certain extent, but since the guy who just got rewinded is confused, and no matter how many times they try to attack they will fail, while GER attacks won't fail, they will end up losing. So it seems like you don't want it to be a rewind as that isn't OP enough. And it isn't just a simple rewind, as it does have more to it, but it works very similar to a rewind.

Translation=Rendered the precognition useless as it wasn't showing an actual event.

Yep. If it didn't Yhwach would win, and I didn't say he would win.

Yes, after he gets confused why his future vision was wrong.

Yep.

Will reset to 0=Reiatsuless and Defenseless Yhwach=Zero durability feats Yhwach=Dead Mustache Man.

Soul king Yhwach's passive durability should be above GER's output. Maybe if this was base Yhwach you would have a solid argument. If Yhwach's soul pressure is enough to erase GER on contact that would screw him over as well.

Diavolo had several stances where he could, where others he couldn't, he attacked GER when time was still erased and was surprised he countered it mention no one should move in the world where time is erased, therefore he attacked him while time was erased.

He was probably about to end the time skip as he was striking. Both times he tried to kill Polneraff he had to exist the erased time to deal the finishing blow. That was the whole point of using the blood drops. When you see the time skip that means he is about to attack. It would be useless if he just kills you during the skipped time.

There is, Epitaph's premonition was rendered useless once the RtZ activated and he can at some point reset his will and actions to zero beating the mustache man to death

The only problem I have with that is the beating to death part. His base durability is just too high for GER to kill based off of his current feats.

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@godren said:

Wait... some of you think Yama beat Almighty Yhwach LMFAO!?

GER dies in Yhwach's presence via overwhelming reiatsu 1 shotting the wall level characters passively.

This GER wank is off the charts, idk how yall managed to wank him harder than vs wiki.

Yama did beat Almighty Yhwach. We don't know exactly, how but we know there was a battle between Yamamoto and Yhwach 1000 years prior to final arc, (stated by the RG). We know Yhwach had the Almighty back then(shown in a flashback prior to the first invasion of soul society) and we know Yhwach and the Wandenreich were defeated (Stated by Haschwalth and confirmed by Yamamoto).

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@azureus said:
@godren said:

Wait... some of you think Yama beat Almighty Yhwach LMFAO!?

GER dies in Yhwach's presence via overwhelming reiatsu 1 shotting the wall level characters passively.

This GER wank is off the charts, idk how yall managed to wank him harder than vs wiki.

Yama did beat Almighty Yhwach. We don't know exactly, how but we know there was a battle between Yamamoto and Yhwach 1000 years prior to final arc, (stated by the RG). We know Yhwach had the Almighty back then(shown in a flashback prior to the first invasion of soul society) and we know Yhwach and the Wandenreich were defeated (Stated by Haschwalth and confirmed by Yamamoto).

likely when he was alseep was when he got beat

OT: yhwach yeets ger i guess

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@alextheboss:

I don't even watch Jojo, but...

Future modification=changing the future which is what I'm saying. He doesn't just have grains of sand to pick form, he can create his own future as long as its within his power. Though you could argue by doing that he creates a grain of sand where that happens, thus jumping to another grain of sand.

No, he said for Ichigo to change the future it's like jumping from one grain to the next, but he can do it to all futures. He makes this clear by saying just how Ichigo can change the future that's in front of him, he can change all the futures that exist. So he doesn't just future hop, he legit changes the future. It's made pretty clear.

I have to disagree here, its explicitly stated the way regular people and Yhwach change the future, are the same. The only difference here is the scale of outcomes both deal with. Regular people can only influence the future they can see, the future that is directly infront of them. Yhwach can only influence the future he sees too, but the thing is, he sees all of them. Plus the grains of sands are 'possibilities' according to his own words. He cannot create outside outcomes, but only influence ones that already exist.

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GER godmurderstomps Yhwach.

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#142  Edited By crackshotboi

Omnipotent mustache stomps wanked no limit fallacy ger

Jk ger stomps

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@azureus: I agree he can only affect things like a regular person, but in all possible futures, and technically it would go to another grain, but when you say he is limited to jumping grains it confuses people into thinking if there is let’s say 100 grains, that he has to pick one of those options. That’s is not really true. As long as it’s within his power to do in the present, he can do it in the future, but you could argue anything he can possibly do is already a grain, so he is technically jumping to it. That would mean there are basically an infinite number of grains anyways. I think it’s just simpler to say if it’s in his power he can do it. Like if he attacked from the right he can change it to attacking from the left in the future, since it’s within his power to also attack from the left. So it’s true he can create outside realities, but he can affect all of the realities he sees if it’s within his power.

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@azureus: I agree he can only affect things like a regular person, but in all possible futures, and technically it would go to another grain, but when you say he is limited to jumping grains it confuses people into thinking if there is let’s say 100 grains, that he has to pick one of those options. That’s is not really true. As long as it’s within his power to do in the present, he can do it in the future, but you could argue anything he can possibly do is already a grain, so he is technically jumping to it. That would mean there are basically an infinite number of grains anyways. I think it’s just simpler to say if it’s in his power he can do it. Like if he attacked from the right he can change it to attacking from the left in the future, since it’s within his power to also attack from the left. So it’s true he can create outside realities, but he can affect all of the realities he sees if it’s within his power.

Its all the same thing. One thing is that according to Yhwach the future isn't a single road remember? It changes depending on the situation. This is not to say Yhwach can't reach a dead end, but it isn't to say that it can be limited that easily. Anything he can do to alter the future is a possibility, like you pointed out. That's not an outside reality, its just another possibility he invoked. He can't do the impossible or spontaneously change it to an outcome that is not reflective of the prior situation.

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GER stomps

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@azureus said:
@godren said:

Wait... some of you think Yama beat Almighty Yhwach LMFAO!?

GER dies in Yhwach's presence via overwhelming reiatsu 1 shotting the wall level characters passively.

This GER wank is off the charts, idk how yall managed to wank him harder than vs wiki.

Yama did beat Almighty Yhwach. We don't know exactly, how but we know there was a battle between Yamamoto and Yhwach 1000 years prior to final arc, (stated by the RG). We know Yhwach had the Almighty back then(shown in a flashback prior to the first invasion of soul society) and we know Yhwach and the Wandenreich were defeated (Stated by Haschwalth and confirmed by Yamamoto).

ofc he had The Almighty in the past, we literally see it multiple times. What you failed to realize is that Yama didn't defeat him with his current Almighty, hell as a matter of fact do you even have proof he fought him with The Almighty?

Are you aware no one in the royal guard had info on Yhwach's Almighty? So clearly it's at least vastly different then it was back in that time or he literally didn't have it at all in that fight. Just look at how Ichibe reacted.

So saying Yama beat Yhwach in the past is pointless if we know jack shit about it. Yhwach defeated Gremmy in the past and sealed him as well. Yet we know literally nothing about it.

What we do know is he lost via unknown means, built a shadow dimension within Seireitei via unknown means, recruited pieces of the SK via unknown means, went into hibernation for unknown reasons.

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@godren:

ofc he had The Almighty in the past, we literally see it multiple times. What you failed to realize is that Yama didn't defeat him with his current Almighty...

Bro what? What do you mean 'current' Almighty?

hell as a matter of fact do you even have proof he fought him with The Almighty?

No, but that isn't even worth asking. We saw Yhwach with the Almighty prior to the invasion of Soul Society. That's already enough to suggest so, and it would pretty much baseless to assert he didn't fight with a major part of his power-set.

Are you aware no one in the royal guard had info on Yhwach's Almighty?

Yes.

So clearly it's at least vastly different...

Baseless.

then it was back in that time or he literally didn't have it at all in that fight. Just look at how Ichibe reacted.

Equally baseless since we know he had it prior to invasion.

So saying Yama beat Yhwach in the past is pointless if we know jack shit about it. Yhwach defeated Gremmy in the past and sealed him as well. Yet we know literally nothing about it.

Then that means, Yama beat Almighty Yhwach...and Yhwach beat Gremmy with the Visionary.

What we do know is he lost via unknown means built a shadow dimension within Seireitei via unknown means, recruited pieces of the SK via unknown means, went into hibernation for unknown reasons.

Which is beside the point. No one said the circumstances are known, just that there was an encounter, then there was a winner, and a loser.

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DarkenSHAZAM

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