Goku VS Vegeta, Who would really win?

Vegeta was the one who fled the planet. I would definitely count that as a win for Goku.

And yes, it is an unfair advantage. Goku has the same powerset that Vegeta had. Taking away his tail but letting Vegeta keep his would be like a fight where Goku could go SSJ2 and Vegeta could only go SSJ. It's giving one character an advantage that the other should rightfully have.

Jmarshmallow

You're missing the underlying fact that Vegeta only had to flee because he was jumped by 3 other warriors. Had they not been there, Goku would be dead. It doesn't matter that he fled. Even if Krillen killed him, he still would have had more of a victory than Goku.

I think you have a completely different view on what's unfair. You're basically saying that because Vegeta was stronger in that fight, he had an unfair advantage. I don't see it that way. If you had two wrestlers facing each other in a match, it wouldn't exactly be 'unfair' if one was vastly better. That's why professional sports aren't stopped even if one team dominates the other. It's not unfair to be better or stronger than you're opponent. However, it is unfair to have outside help in a one on one match which is exactly what Goku had.

Ok, in SSJ2 Vegeta vs SSJ2 Goku, Goku got put down by Vegeta. Even if it was tricked into letting his guard down, the fact is he was put down. That is why he said it was technically a win.

As far as saiyan saga. Vegeta's tail is not something that's going to make it "unfair" Goku has K-O-Ken. and Vegeta didn't. Is that unfair? Yet, if it wasn't for that, Goku would have out right died anyway.
And What do you mean, Goku came out on top. This is really why I don't like DBZ debates at all. You have this God Goku crap that goes on that makes it pointless.
How did Goku come out on top in that fight. It was beaten and completely screwed over for months after that fight. Vegeta would have killed him if it were not for his Gohan, Krillin, and the fat guy jumping in. Even after a three man tag effort for the spirit bomb, Vegeta was still not defeated. Gohan fell on him in his great ape form and that's what finally put vegeta out. That was a Four on One and they barely defeated him.

Goku did not come out on top, yet everyone says "Yeah, Goku beat vegeta!" When did this happen??

If Goku had went 3 and just stompped Vegeta, then we could just say Goku win's. But he didn't and with equal power at SSJ2, they were even until Vegeta tricked him and knocked him out.

So, over all, Vegeta shows greater historic feats against Goku.
Thus he would win the fair fight.

Correct. On the other hand though, it would be unfair if one wrestler had a knife, and the other did not, that would be unfair. Vegeta had that advantage but on a whole different level. He could turn into a Great Ape whereas Goku was unable to because his tail was taken away. He had one tool that they both should have.

Jmarshmallow

How is Goku being dead 'cheating'? Just wondering, though I do believe Vegeta had the upper hand in that fight.

That's not the same thing at all. According to your logic every fight in DBZ is unfair, and now every victory is lessened. (Manga) Frieza was completely stomped by Goku after he turned Super Saiyan, now it's unfair. Trunks killed Frieza with his sword, that's unfair16,17, and 18 were androids, now every fight they won is unfair. Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2, and Cell wasn't, the fight is now unfair. See where i'm going with this? Just because Vegeta was more powerful than Goku, or had a 'tool' that he didn't have does not make the fight unfair.

Mr. Popo wins

I'm pretty sure his ki wasn't used as fast, or was used differently since he was dead. I think he commented on it when he first went Super Saiyan 3

I'm sorry to say this but that's not really that good of a reasoning. There is logic behind the idea with the knife but the analogy isn't that good.

Tail = Great Ape = Multiply power level by 10 folds. (tool)
Kaio-Ken = Doubles power level. (tool)
Kaio-Ken times 5 = Multiply power level by 10 folds.

So with Vegeta having the ability to multiply his power level by 10 due to his ability to turn into a Great Ape is actually really similar with Goku's ability to double, triple, quadruple, etc his power level due to him knowing this skill called Kaio-Ken. If you argue one had an "unfair" advantage because they can "transform", then it's pretty much the same argument with Goku being able to "power up" ("transform") every encounter with the Kaio-Ken.

The logic with the knife is more like using something that's powerful and not a part of you. That logic actually ties into the Spirit Bomb fairly well. Spirit Bomb's power is not from Goku at all. It's collecting the energy from the surrounding life force and it's also really powerful. It's a technique that is used by Goku but you can think of it as the boxer tells the opponent that the boxer is going to grab a knife then runs outside the ring and charges into the locker room to grab a knife and runs back to the ring to fight against the opponent. And while all that is happening, the opponent tries to take the boxer out.

Goku

@buttersdaman000:

Oh, perhaps that's true. Not sure. I only remember that being in the Other World, Goku doesn't really get tired that fast, or at all. So that's probably why he was able to achieve SSJ3 while Vegeta couldn't. Though, in the anime, I remember Goku transforming to SSJ3 to show Fat Buu and that took a chunk of energy. Then when he was training the kids with the fusion dance, he transformed again to show them. But that transformation showed him really exhausted and worn out. So I wonder if that's really the case or it just had to do with his time limit on Earth. I dunno.

@limilicious: I think it was linked to his time limit or some such, he didn't go SSJ 3 cause otherwise he would have ran out of time...or something. I recall him commenting on SSJ 3 and time and him being dead.

That's actually the exact reason unless i'm completely mistaken. Goku achieved the SSJ3 form in other world, and could maintain it indefinitely, because his ki was used differently then it was on earth. When he transformed against Buu his ki began to sap at a much faster rate due to the stress of the form, which ended up shortening his time on earth.

Goku wins. Better fighter. More skilled. The fact that the OP has to equalize power just brings Goku down to Vegeta's level in power. Only way this is a "could go either way" is if he handicaps Goku more and equalizes skill and what not. Gotta love it when OP's argue in their own thread.

@limilicious: him going SSJ3 to the kids is filler just a heads up

As of this fight I'll go 50/50 IMO

My point has nothing to do with Goku or Vegeta, but with Bills and the history of the series (i.e. a weaker character surprising someone stronger). Bills got "preparation" to face Goku SSJ3 and like I said, it was a demonstrative fight. I also dont think, even though is not relevant, that Goku would ever use his "full" power, when in fact he tend to hold back in the beginning of the fights to learn his opponent moves and power level (i.e. he left them spank him for a while), specially in such a casual spare with someone that Kai freak out about not getting him nervous, so yeah, Vegeta managing to score a few punches on a surprised Bills, while Goku in that particular situation didnt is no proof of anything.

Why Toriyama opinion has to do with this? Dragon Ball always had this moments, and it was never meant to imply a character was stronger than someone. ABC logic in those situations doesnt really work. Goku SSJ3 > Vegeta SSJ2.

And in what way does that promotional quote prove that BotG is canon? It's irrelevant either way, since we are talking the end of DBZ not BotG.

He had preparation to face Goku? No, he didn't. Bills woke up, had dinner, talked to Weiss, and then learned that Frieza was defeated by Saiyan. Bills assumed that this Saiyan must be the SSG and so he traveled to King Kais planet to fight him. He didn't 'prep' himself to fight Goku at all. No one has ever exactly 'prepped' in DBZ.

I can't recall anyone, besides human or extremely weak enemies, that Goku has held back on, especially when he was in danger of losing…as he was against Bills. The best example I can think of is Ginyu, but even then they were fighting evenly and Goku was trying to convince him to retreat. And no matter how you look at it, Goku was completely stomped by Bills and Vegeta wasn't. It doesn't matter if you think Goku was holding back.

I brought up Toriyama because he was an integral part of BotG and obviously knew that Vegeta would be outclassing Goku in his fight against Bills. So, if he really was against multipliers, then maybe this was his way of showing it. But, like I said above, this is just my opinion and we have no way of really verifying its veracity. And, I don't know what you mean by the rest.

How does it not prove that BotG is canon?

Without holding back?

Goku on a very close and good fight..

How not? I'm not saying preparation in comic book terms (which would be rather useless on DB universe anyway), just in the sense that Goku challenged him to a fight AND powered up in front of him, so Bills got time to sense his power and adapt to it before the fight even began, where Vegeta just rushed in and caught him by surprise after he slapped Bulma (which was okay by the incident). This was the whole "different situations" thing, that you even admitted.

I'm fairly sure that Goku strategy was always not going straight full power at the beginning of the fight, so he could learn the enemies moves and real power. Maybe I'm wrong, but I do believe this was stated/shown/observed multiple times on DB/DBZ/DBGT. The mere fact that it was a demonstrative fight - and that Kai was freaking out about Bills getting angry, pretty much confirms that Goku wasnt fighting at 100% full power. Which is okay really, I'm not saying he was "holding back", just that since he wasnt angry, he wouldnt really be able to use 100% of his power anyway - like Vegeta did when he got mad by Bills slapping Bulma.

Well, if Vegeta was "outclassing" Goku, then why everybody decided to power Goku up to SSG levels to stop Bills from destroying the whole planet? Why Vegeta couldnt achieve SSJ3? Whereas you think it was Toriyama' intend to show that Vegeta is now stronger than Goku or not, you dont have any proof of that, while there is plenty of Goku still being the stronger one. And I think it's pretty well-known that Dragon Ball was never known for its power level consistency, with multiple examples of someone weaker beating the crap out of someone stronger (that also had beaten the crap of someone else that is also stronger), even if is just by a few seconds - like Vegeta did with Bills. The fact that you have to say that Vegeta wasnt "stomped" by Bills is pretty ridiculous, the power gap between the two there was huge and if Bills wanted, he could stomp him as well - but like I said, it was a COMPLETELY different situation.

Ok, but i'm still not getting how that really counts as prep.

Watch his fight against Vegeta again. It's not like Bills was caught off guard by Vegeta's power since he was the one who landed the first punch.

Assuming that he wasn't fighting at %100 or close to it, why would Goku continue to let himself be outclassed when he had more power at his disposal? Bills was clearly stronger than him from the get-go, so Goku, being the natural fighter that he is, would've powered up right? Furthermore, King Kai even stressed how dangerous Bills was. Why would Goku decide to go easy on him then? How much of his power do you think he was using then? 90%, 75%? 60%? How do you gauge it? What's to stop me from saying that Vegeta wasn't 100%? I mean he was already injured…..

That's easy - Goku is the main character. He will always beat the villain. Look at Gohan to affirm this. Gohan couldn't even defeat Cell without Goku having his hand in it somehow. Gohan, dozens of times stronger than his father, just had to screw up against Super Buu so that his father could defeat (a weaker) buu in the end. There is no way anybody but Goku would have become SSG.

Vegeta didn't achieve SSJ3 because the ki soak of that form is too much for the body in the human world. Goku explained that in the buu saga. He was only able to achieve it in the first place because of the advantages the other world offered.

I think more proof points to Goku being overhyped throughout the series actually.

True, Dragon Ball Z is notorious for inconsistency but I don't think this applies. The next movie might shed better light on the whole situation.

@buttersdaman000: The instance regarding Vegeta doing better than Goku against Bills is something I find to be utterly ridiculous and full of PIS/bad writing. Regardless of what he thinks of the multilpliers, Super Saiyan 3 puts Goku on another world of power. It was stupid for Toriyama to have Vegeta do better than Goku as a SSJ2 against Bills when ABC power logic has been the name of the game in DBZ fights. Character A has to be more powerful than Character B to win and a Super Saiyan 2 is not more powerful than a Super Saiyan 3. That's a fact Toriyama can't contradict without rewriting the Buu Saga.

Why does a Super Saiyan 3 have to be more powerful than a Super Saiyan 2? There is no minimum PL you have to reach in order to transform. And no, Super Saiyan 3 does not put Goku in another world of power, it's a 4x multiplier from Gokus power level, not from every super saiyan 2. Just because Goku is a super saiyan 3 does not mean he is 4 times stronger than super saiyan 2 Vegeta. We know that you can get more powerful in each form without necessarily having to transform. Look towards the majin buu saga. Vegeta, as an ssj1, was more powerful or just as powerful as ssj2 Gohan. Granted he slacked off and Vegeta trained, but still, it proves my point. Then as majin vegeta, when he first reached super saiyan 2, he is much more powerful than super saiyan 2 gohan. So, why couldn't Vegeta just have become more powerful than Goku in BotG?? I don't see any reason not.

Super Saiyan 2 is a better all around form than Super Saiyan 3 anyways. The only reason why Goku was able to obtain that power sucking form is because he was dead. It wouldn't make sense for Vegeta to obtain it while he was alive.

Your points would have more merit were it not for the fact that in the ordinary Super Saiyan forms, Goku and Vegeta are roughly equals in power during the Buu saga. That's what undermines your case ultimately since Goku and Vegeta were around the same levels in the Buu Saga albeit Vegeta saw Goku as his superior hence his willing possession by Babidi. Thus, in order for your arguments to hold more weight than they do, Vegeta would have to be Goku's clear superior. But never is that shown to be the case in an overall fight, mainly due to Goku being the protagonist of DBZ.

Now, in regards to the fight with Bills, Super Saiyan 3 is simply much more powerful than a Super Saiyan 2 can ever be. That's a fact. I've just looked at the Kanzenshuu rating of Super Saiyan 3 and it states that the form is actually 4 times more powerful than the Super Saiyan 2 form but that could be a mistranslation. In any case, the form increases the user's power 4 fold and that's more than the Super Saiyan 2 form does. Bills is by definition a god level being able to obliterate the much more powerful Super Saiyan 3 form in one finger flick and one karate chop. Yet Vegeta in a weaker form and weaker power level overall manages to last longer than Goku does in a much more powerful form. How much sense does that make?

And I do very much agree with your last point actually. It's something I'm counting in a CAV Superman vs Goku debate hehe.

1.guys supporting vegeta must be blind and missguided..vegeta might have been in a lot more fights but goku is lot more wiser..vegeta has no tactic he just jumps in and gets beaten(vs cell, vs frieza)

2.goku is and always have been a lot stronger than vegeta(he was a ssj3 when he fought against majin vegeta, he just didnt transform to hurt the little bitches pride)

3.goku is the protagonist(no way in hell someone is stronger than him)

Morals on Vegeta wins.

Vegeta doesn't hold back and is pretty ruthless. He would do anything to win.

But in his fight with Goky when they were both SSJ2 Goky got beat because Vegeta was a little bit amped. And that was more than enough to give him the edge.

In terms of power I would say they are more or less the same....though Gooku displyed more skills in combat.

To the people debating about vegeta and goku at the end of the buu saga did vegeta not get a boost before the final fight due to dying? Because I'm sure there power increase when the die and get close to death.

LOL, Vegeta is always living in Goku's shadow.

Everyone seems to forget that Goku is also a genius at battle strategy. He also seems to be better at energy conservation, as he was the first to discover the Full Power Super Saiyan form. Goku is overall just a smarter and better fighter. Vegeta plays dirty and relies on rushing in with brute force all the time, but as a wise man (you know who I'm talking about) once said:

"It takes more than strength to win a fight."

My money's on Goku

They get a power increase when they recover from near death, and it's mostly and add effect, rather than a multiplier.

goku was already a super saiyan 3 when he fought majin vegeta...he could have easily taken him down but he was afraid that he would hurt the dickheads pride..

goku. Much more innovative. Has a past of holding own against much more powerful apponents.

Hell he can became more then 2 time stronger then vageta while thinking all the time(Rost.gohan even stated it)

@galvador:

Very true.

But would have been lame I think if Goku did go all SSJ3........there would have been absolutely no contest.

This is a battle where the most skilled and better fighter wins so I am going with Goku

I really want to see Vegeta winning this but as russellmania77 said "Vegeta's soul purpose is to lose to goku" it pretty much so. Plus Goku has instant transmission.

Little off topic but Gohan is most likely stronger than goku.

@easterlin: Depends on which Gohan:

SSJ2 Goku>SSJ2 Kid Gohan

SSJ2 Goku>>SSJ2 Teen Gohan

SSJ2 Post Zeta Gohan>=SSJ2 Goku(this one is iffy but most likely Gohan)

Ultimate Gohan>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Goku

yea ure right. I was referring to ultimate gohan :D

@reaverlation: i couldnt agree more but i think u went a little too far..ultimate gohan is undoubtedly the strongest individual in dbz but i thnk theres not that big of a difference between ultimate gohan and ssj 3 goku..

@galvador: yes there is.SSJ3 Goku isn't near Gohan in power

@reaverlation: no

@galvador: 1. Whis 2. Beerus 3. Goku. Gohan's not even close to the strongest. Beerus one shotted him while heavily suppressed.

@galvador: Whatever.Ultimate Gohan severely outclasses SSJ3 Goku

@reaverlation: Not by as much as you claim. Vegeta was terrified when King Kai told him someone beat SSJ3 Goku, implying that Gohan, Gotenks, and Vegeta couldn't beat someone who beat Goku. Also, before Gohan and the others (besides Vegeta) knew anything about SSJG, they were all happy and excited when Goku showed up, as though they thought he had a chance.

I've always seen Goku as a combative genius. I believe he thinks more than Vegeta in a FIGHT and has a much more level headed way of approaching battles in most cases. But anyone is more intelligent than Goku outside of battle. lol

Goku is always seen as being ahead of Vegeta. Vegeta has only been stronger than him once and that was when he was a villain(Saiyan Saga). If they were to fight at base, I believe Goku could win. It all depends on transformations but I could be wrong. Goku spent a very long time in SSJ so I believe he could be better at energy conservation and is able to use it to its full extent more effectively. Every form Vegeta achieved, Goku also achieved it as well. That being said, I think Super Vegeta > Super Goku, SSJ2 Vegeta >= SSJ2 Goku but that is highly debateable. Goku should really always win. He's just a better fighter.

I don't think Ultimate is that far ahead. Gohan at the end is just wasted potential...GT made him and Trunks the biggest jokes.

@darthaznable: This is Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku I'm talking about. EOZ SSJ3 Goku would be closer but not enough to close the gap with Ultimate Gohan

They both are really good fighters and have advantages over each other, this isn't something you could predict because it is completely 50/50

This is the same buu that Gohan was throwing around like a rag doll. Goku admits both him and Vegeta would be killed by him...thus making gohan the strongest at that point, but then he slacked off.. Which is fair. Each Saiyan had their time to shine. Vegeta took a punch for the face from bills, when ss3 goku did not. in Buu saga Vegeta admits he is better than him. People take this s Vegeta being the best forever and always has been! he had one rage boost and people lose their shit, gohan had rage boots too...

@w0nd said:

@anime2114 said:

@galvador: 1. Whis 2. Beerus 3. Goku. Gohan's not even close to the strongest. Beerus one shotted him while heavily suppressed.

This is the same buu that Gohan was throwing around like a rag doll. Goku admits both him and Vegeta would be killed by him...thus making gohan the strongest at that point, but then he slacked off.. Which is fair. Each Saiyan had their time to shine. Vegeta took a punch for the face from bills, when ss3 goku did not. in Buu saga Vegeta admits he is better than him. People take this s Vegeta being the best forever and always has been! he had one rage boost and people lose their shit, gohan had rage boots too...

Goku also said he couldn't beat fat buu and yet he smacked him around.

@goobot: What was his exact words...he didn't flat out said he couldn't beat him, There was a technical reason behind it.