@danm said:
@drazah: There isn't a single valid argument you can make for Vegeta defeating Goku
What, you mean other than these?
@danm: both have trained to better themselves. both have trained to save the world. so training is moot anyway since they're same power level. gokus travels are null also, vegeta has been to countless worlds, jus because a kai trained them doesn't give one an edge. piccolo, tien, chao zu, yam have all been trained by king kai, but vegeta can still beat them. Ditto if you want to mention pikon or after life training. As far as I.T. goes, Goku doesn't usually use I.T. in battle, and these other superior techniques consist of ??? there's no spirit bomb or kaoken in OP. Vegeta invented more SS ki attacks then SS goku, and more efficient.
Also,
@drazah:
It comes down to Goku having more to train for, that being his family, friends and the planet where Vegeta only trains for himself which he eventually comes to realize why it is Goku has always been his better
That may be relevant if they are equal power and Vegeta is trying to destroy the planet, but that's an unrealistic scenario involving SSJ2 Vegeta. In fact, Vegeta died for his family not himself despite his claims, and it was only Buu's seemingly infinite source of ki that saved himself from Vegeta's suicide attack.
This point is moot and isn't even relevant to the fight, but I'll refute it further with feats. For example, Goku overpowers Vegeta's Gallick Gun by pushing himself further in his Kaioken despite King Kai's cries. That's a feat of him doing as such for the Earth, as per usual:
However in his fight with Majin Vegeta, Goku knows Vegeta won't destroy the Earth if he loses the fight (nor at that moment), and even though it's a completely serious fight, he isn't putting all his power into it because 1/3 of ki is courage, which as it happens at that moment Vegeta is visibly superior as Goku had been with Goku's Kamehameha in their first fight (in addition to boosting his Kaioken), though Vegeta's is more powerful by a smaller margin in this instance:
And what about Vegeta's extensive travels?
After which, Vegeta dominates him H2H effortlessly, and Goku admits his speed and technique are superior to his own. Thus Goku requires the Kaioken in order to keep up the fight:
Training with King Kai is a highly relevant feat though as Goku had to "become more powerful than King Kai himself," and the sole purpose of becoming more powerful than King Kai was because he claimed Vegeta and Nappa were more powerful than himself.
In terms of martial arts, at this stage Vegeta was one of the most high ranking fighters in a galactic military. Do I need to describe what this would entail? He's been training his entire life, with access to many times more planets' worth of knowledge, experience, and skilled fighters, etc. than Earth has had for Goku up until this point. And it was evident in both Vegeta's power and fighting skill, both of which surpassed Goku's.
@drazah: landing on planet yardrat, to train after namek blows up
The training Goku did between his battle with Vegeta on Earth and his battle with Frieza on Namek was mainly strength training. Primarily he was training under intense gravity, which improved his body's durability and most importantly its survivability under stress, therefore allowing him to reach unheard of levels of Kaioken on Namek, and he was insanely quick. The enemies on Namek were not much more skilled than Vegeta himself - presumably less skilled in fact - however, Frieza may have been of varying levels of skill and had a tail which complicated things in close combat.
Namek was mostly about gaining new levels of power, and yes, Goku spent a very long time perfecting the usage of these powers after Namek. It was evident upon his arrival on Earth, sparring with Super Saiyan Trunks and outclassing him. However, the only real gain Goku got that is relevant to this fight from these travels was the Instant Transmission which is his prime advantage over most opponents.
Everything else is equalized by Vegeta upon Android 19 and 20's arrival:
@drazah: spending a lot of time training in other world
After which he and Vegeta were clearly equals in skill.
As an angelic (dead) Super Saiyan 2, meaning he had higher levels of energy, Goku was slightly outclassed in power by Majin Vegeta.
@drazah: Given that and his superior techniques, instant transmission most notably
Which techniques exactly? Except IT, which Goku has only used a few times in combat, except for Battle of Gods which isn't in English yet. Also, Goku lost track of Vegeta many times during their fight, indicating he was too fast and/or can mask his ki during fights, which Bills might not know how to do actively during battle as it's a technique apparently known only to Earthlings throughout the saga. In other words, Goku can't use IT against Vegeta in the same way he used it against Bills.
Also, frankly you're wrong. Vegeta has the superior ki techniques. His Gallick Gun was an equal to Goku's x4 Super Kamehameha. His Final Flash destroyed Perfect Cell. His Final Impact tore through Majin Buu effortlessly.
Vegeta's Energy Rings, a shackle-type ki technique, restrained even Goku, a Super Saiyan 2 himself. Presumably he called upon a bit of his hidden power to break out of them, which surprised Vegeta:
@drazah: it makes him a better warrior, not just in strength but in all aspects.
Again, frankly, he's not the superior warrior in strength. SSJ2 Vegeta is clearly slightly superior to SSJ2 Goku, as he focused his training primarily on gravity training after Namek and even after the Cell Games for the next seven years. That, and ki techniques are the two slight advantages he has over Goku by the end of DBZ.
Goku on the other hand is unmatched in spiritual power (ki) which is driven by courage, strength of mind, and health, meaning he has the perfect balance of all of these. Comparing SSJ3 Goku to SSJ2 Vegeta for anything else is moot since it is a Super Saiyan transformation which requires spiritual strength, and in effect boosts all his other stats. Goku also has a taskmaster-like fighting ability that allows him to hang with literally any fighter he's ever encountered, at least in terms of skill.
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