So idk if anyone's mentioned this yet but don't forget Goku practically stalemated Cell who was superior in power, a diverse physiology, and all the skills and knowledge of the greatest fighters.
@sladerulez: Remember, I made my estimate based on assuming Ssgss is equivalent to SSJ3. The mid ball calc is as follows:
SSJ3 Gotenks is twice as strong (probably much more) than SSJ3 buu saga Goku. That would mean he is 800 times as strong as base buu saga Goku. Now we assume that since God is base for Goku, that his base was multiplied by whatever multiplier God is. God base is the form (Saiyan Beyond God is the official term) that fought Gotenks. And considering the ease he handled Gotenks with, he is more than likely twice as strong as him as well. This puts Saiyan beyond god which should have the same power as God at around 1,600 times Goku’s normal base form. Then since Ssgss was the equivalent of a super Saiyan god going super Saiyan, it would be a fifty times multiplier on top of the 1,600 making Ssgss an 80,000 times multiplier. Then Ssgss Kaioken times 20 would multiply that 80,000 times 20 equaling a 1.6 million times multiplier between Ssgss Kaioken x20 and regular base form. Ultra instinct omen was much stronger than the universe 7 spirit bomb which should be anywhere between seven and two times the power of Ssgss Kaioken x20. For the sake of lowball I will use 2. This puts UIO at at least 3.2 million and it got stronger each time it was used. If we assume it got stronger by 1.5 times each time, than the second and third usages are 4.8 million and 7.2 million times multipliers each. Then considering the power increase from UIO three being destroyed by Jiren to blitzing him before he could process his movements with MUI, MUI would be another two times multiplier which puts it at approximately 14.4 million times base. And while the number sounds out there, there are calcs putting full power SSG alone in the septillions or more, let alone MUI.
Tell me if you want to see the reasonably high balled calcs in the next post.
@bossmountain: Remember this is a pure martial arts fight. No jutsus, no ki, and the last round only allows transformations. Otherwise Equalized Naruto stomps.
Martial arts skill is not one of Naruto's strengths and never has been. He has always been more of a brawler who relies more on raw strength and his various jutsu to throw off opponents.
@streak619: My entire list of scans for one. Naruto may be able to use frog kata, but Goku has fought multiple opponents who have had hax striking abilities (e.g. Hit, the invisible man, chiaoutzu, Android 19, etc.) and has become superior to all of them. He even learned a counter to Hit’s much more powerful invisible punch which has enough power to OHKO easily.
There is no evidence that Naruto has an any more difficult to analyze style than all of the people shown above. All of his taijutsu has been dealt with by Goku in just the scans I’ve shown. Whether normal taijutsu or invisible strikes, Goku has shown counters time and time again.
You’re assuming that Naruto uses precognition and Frog Kata all the time, but that Goku won’t use his? That is a fallacious statement within itself. Also it was never even stated to be precognition but rather skill in countering fighting styles. What you’re failing to do is prove that Naruto who is ten to one a brawler in his fights has the hand to hand feats to counter mine above.
@streak619: My entire list of scans for one. Naruto may be able to use frog kata, but Goku has fought multiple opponents who have had hax striking abilities (e.g. Hit, the invisible man, chiaoutzu, Android 19, etc.) and has become superior to all of them.
That isn't a valid basis for saying he can do the same for Frog kata. You need to demonstrate a method using which Goku can beat Kawazu Kumite.
He even learned a counter to Hit’s much more powerful invisible punch which has enough power to OHKO easily.
How did he counter Hit's invisible punches again?
There is no evidence that Naruto has an any more difficult to analyze style than all of the people shown above.
Well he can't sense nature energy so he can't predict the range or the location of the invisible strikes. Which negates dodging due an increase in attacking range combined with precog.
All of his taijutsu has been dealt with by Goku in just the scans I’ve shown. Whether normal taijutsu or invisible strikes, Goku has shown counters time and time again.
Yeah but how exactly would he counter Kawazu kumite specifically? He can't use the air currents or something like that to figure it out because nature energy is omnipresent and Naruto just encorporates it.
You’re assuming that Naruto uses precognition and Frog Kata all the time, but that Goku won’t use his?
He uses it regularly in sage mode. Which is the version in round 1. Goku has used precog only once in his entire life.
That is a fallacious statement within itself.
No it isn't.
Also it was never even stated to be precognition but rather skill in countering fighting styles.
No.
What you’re failing to do is prove that Naruto who is ten to one a brawler in his fights has the hand to hand feats to counter mine above.
Most of your feats don't prove Goku can effectively counter Kawazu Kumite in my opinion.
@streak619: Give me a reason why Frog Kata is any more efficient than the other techniques. You seem to be claiming later that Frog Kata is omnipresent and hits everyone anywhere regardless of location. If that were true, Naruto would have easily beat pain, Madara, etc. from the other side of the earth. And remember that Goku learned how to sense natural energy in King Kai’s planet to the point of being able to draw natural energy from light years away. I think that he’d know if that was actively trying to attack him.
Naruto does use that regularly in sage mode. However Goku’s “precognition” relies much more on learning what an opponent will do before they do it than anything else. Something he’s done many times in the scans above. And remember, the picture is just for show. Round 1 specifically states no transformations which includes sage mode and Super Saiyan Goku. If you doubt that, ask @buttersdaman00.
I won’t counter your other statements as they are literally no, no, and not in my opinion with no evidence to support this.
@streak619: Give me a reason why Frog Kata is any more efficient than the other techniques.
You're shifting the burden of proof. I never stated KK > Goku. I wanted to know how Goku was gonna deal with something that negated dodging.
You seem to be claiming later that Frog Kata is omnipresent
I said nature energy is omnipresent. KK is a technique.
And remember that Goku learned how to sense natural energy in King Kai’s planet to the point of being able to draw natural energy from light years away. I think that he’d know if that was actively trying to attack him.
Scans? The energies of the verse are also not equalised so there really is no way he can sense it.
Naruto does use that regularly in sage mode. However Goku’s “precognition” relies much more on learning what an opponent will do before they do it than anything else.
Yeah that is what precog is lol.
Something he’s done many times in the scans above. And remember, the picture is just for show. Round 1 specifically states no transformations which includes sage mode and Super Saiyan Goku. If you doubt that, ask @buttersdaman00.
Well he used sage mode Naruto in the OP.
I won’t counter your other statements as they are literally no, no, and not in my opinion with no evidence to support this.
I'm not making a claim, so the question of evidence doesn't even exist.
Why people like to pretend Dragon Ball fighters have no hand to hand skill and just spam blasts on stats is mind boggling to me. Cassandra Cain reads people's body langauge to know what they are gonna do and is lauded as a Martial Arts top tier. Goku uses raw skill to predict the movements of a person using Time Manipulation and it get's ignored. Taskmaster copies Martial Art Techniques accurately and is noted as a High Tier martial artist . Goku Sees a technique once and accurately copies it even if it involves internal usage of Ki that he hadn't even learned to sense at that point and but he has no showings of skill. He uses Pressure points, Counters, has high speed exchanges, uses Skill to equalize against opponents with far superior stats or amalgamations of skill from all the best combatants in the series but it's Dragon ball so all they do is shoot blasts and use raw stats.
Goku bodies Naruto and it isn't even close. Naruto isn't even the best hand to Hand combatant in his own weight class. With Goku you have to find people who legit out class him like Whis to even have an argument that he isn't the best H2h fighter in the series.
No jutsus/chakra or ki (If "abilities" don't require these then then they're allowed)
Standard equipment
Strictly marital arts going by the on-screen/on-panel PRESENTATION of ability
Meaning no in-universe bias i.e Goku is supposed to be the greatest martial artist
In character
Fight to KO/Surrender
ROUND 2 RULES:
Same basic rules as the previous round except each combatant can use canon transformations to boost their base power
Basically, who has the most clutch/useful transformations
If we sticking only to on screen/on panel feats then Naruto bodies Goku. Goku has nothing on panel or on screen without his hype like world champion or student of this and that.
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Goku is a joke compare to that level of taijutsu skills.
Naruto's fighting skill looks greater, as near the end of the series he switches from his brawl and haymaker throwing style to a more technically flashy form of H2H, almost looking like Gentle Fist. Whereas Goku's style after the original DB doesn't look as "skillfull", and is usally flurries of punches and kicks/dodging side to side.
However Goku's skill is implied via scaling from his opponents. It's not a stomp in either case, but I'd give it to Goku more than Naruto in R1. Naruto and Goku both have beaten superior stat opponents before, but as the two shows/mangas differ in style, Naruto has done it by relying on his creativity and cunning with his jutsu, while Goku tended to rely on his greater skill in H2H
However in R2 I'd actually give it to Naruto.
Multipliers are stated in DB, whereas there's no concrete number given in Naruto. But going by how much the transformations actually show improvement and extra abilities, Narutos forms add a lot more to him. Goku's transformations, excluding UI, only add additional power/speed/durability/endurance, and even the more improved of these forms meant to increase sustainability, they all either drain Goku's stamina or outright present a significant risk of harm. However Naruto's forms in general, increase his stamina and add a whole plethora of abilities to boot. He gets regen, "shapeshifting", negative emotion sensing, precog, flight, undetectable attacks, in addition to his base stat increases.
@streak619: I’m referring to how you have said that Goku would be stalemated via Frog Kata without evidence. You never stated how it negates dodging and don’t seem to be intent on doing so either. And my point is still that you haven’t provided a range for Frog Kata, just that it’s undodgeable yet not omnipresent.
You are evading here. You neither confirmed nor denied said statement of Frog Kata mechanics.
There are many similar features between both natural energy’s in each series. You have to stay perfectly still to harness it, It’s omnipresent, etc. and you have provided no reasons why the natural energy for each verse is different. Either way you assume that Naruto’s natural energy is the one present in the verse so it is logical Goku would be able to sense this. And no scans I’m on my phone ?.
Learning an opponents style and countering based on pure fighting prowess isn’t precognition.
False Equivalence fallacy. You assumed the active form of a character without asking the thread creator or reading the op.
You justify countering claims with the word no?.
Either way I cannot provide an argument until I get what you think Frog Kata does out of you. Because you have denied all of my feats because you think Frog Kata is better without saying why. So please actually state objectively what Frog Kata does, or else my argument is impossible, and your arguments are invalid.
So...I love Naruto's story more than Goku's. But, that's not what we are talking about.
Fight 1: Goku's skill feats are numerous (the numerous skill feats in Dragon Ball...esp when he clowned Krillin in that one Tenkaichi Budokai, overwhelming Vegeta, etc etc etc), and while Naruto is a superior improviser, if your skill is on-point, you don't normally need to improvise. Make mine Son Goku.
Fight 2: So...this is tough because Dragon Ball is about transformations, and getting stronger, and "what will our heroes achieve to defeat the next baddie?", and Naruto, while it has cooler techniques, isn't fundamentally about the techniques. The techniques themselves serve secondary to the central parts of the Naruto mythos. So, while the Dragon Ball transformations are normally more useful, because that's what it is about, Naruto's done more creative things with his transformations and techniques. Technically Goku though.
It doesn't make any sense to me. I mean you can't do a hulk vs Random-guy thead with equalized stats.
Strentgh is goku's speciality. What can he do if you remove it from him? Spamming ki blasts?
Its to see who is the best combatant. Not a strange question to ask at all, especially when both have trained different types and styles of H2H and Energi (Chakra ,Ki) control.
@hittheassasin: I don't think Goku stomps R2. His transformations more often than not have negative drawbacks, and only offer base stat increases (stamina, strength, speed, etc.) with UI being the only one that offers utility (precog that is pretty much what sage precog is).
Narutos forms have at least similar multipliers going by his massive strength/speed/etc. increases, but also add regen, sensing, flight, and a whole lot more.
Narutos forms I can see being a little inferior in terms of base multiplication of power, but in utility, Naruto's forms are far more advanced than Gokus.
even with everything equal goku is still smarter (battle wise), has better techniques, is still the better fighter and is more durable and tougher than naruto.
No jutsus/chakra or ki (If "abilities" don't require these then then they're allowed)
Standard equipment
Strictly marital arts going by the on-screen/on-panel PRESENTATION of ability
Meaning no in-universe bias i.e Goku is supposed to be the greatest martial artist
In character
Fight to KO/Surrender
ROUND 2 RULES:
Same basic rules as the previous round except each combatant can use canon transformations to boost their base power
Basically, who has the most clutch/useful transformations
If we sticking only to on screen/on panel feats then Naruto bodies Goku. Goku has nothing on panel or on screen without his hype like world champion or student of this and that.
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2:02
Goku is a joke compare to that level of taijutsu skills.
This is not what on panel feat is. This is what show has better animation lol. And even then Goku vs Kurilin looks better than every fight Naruto was in, movie animations included.
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Goku vs Frieza looks way better aswell, especially that kick and later combo which Naruto could never dream to replicate
Goku vs Cell shows Goku being too agile and acrobatic for Naruto aswell. Naruto is a brick, Goku dances around him and lands a 360 kick on his face GG.
@streak619: I’m referring to how you have said that Goku would be stalemated via Frog Kata without evidence.
That wasn't an argument. I was just voicing my initial thoughts.
You never stated how it negates dodging and don’t seem to be intent on doing so either.
Again, like last time, you need to ask for what you don't know, whereas you talk about it like you know what it is.
And my point is still that you haven’t provided a range for Frog Kata, just that it’s undodgeable yet not omnipresent.
Same as above. You can't give the impression that you know about it and silently expect me to explain it.
You are evading here. You neither confirmed nor denied said statement of Frog Kata mechanics.
False. I already denied that KK was omnipresent. It doesn't even make sense. Do I need to show why a technique being 'omnipresent' makes no logical sense?
There are many similar features between both natural energy’s in each series.
Not a valid basis for saying they're the same. Spirit energy doesn't give you toad or snake features and they're from different verses.
You have to stay perfectly still to harness it, It’s omnipresent, etc. and you have provided no reasons why the natural energy for each verse is different.
They have different properties for one. And even if they didn't that still isn't good enough to equalise them arbitrarily. It's a convention on CV. Energies of different verses are not to be equalised unless specified to be so.
Either way you assume that Naruto’s natural energy is the one present in the verse so it is logical Goku would be able to sense this. And no scans I’m on my phone ?.
You're objectively and irrefutably wrong here unfortunately, no amount of scans from either verse will change that.
Learning an opponents style and countering based on pure fighting prowess isn’t precognition.
Predicting your opponent's movements is precog.
False Equivalence fallacy. You assumed the active form of a character without asking the thread creator or reading the op.
This is a logical fallacy and can only occur in inductive arguments. Howevery assumption is based off of convention and hence isn't even argument. It is a convention on CV to assume the version in the picture in the OP is the version of yhe character unless specified otherwise. Hence that is a fallacious use of the FE fallacy, you're taking it's meaning and implications massivey out of context.
You justify countering claims with the word no?.
Because you're objectively and factually incorrect. Goku clearly used precog by analysing fighting styles to predict their moves which is still, by definition, precog.
Either way I cannot provide an argument until I get what you think Frog Kata does out of you. Because you have denied all of my feats because you think Frog Kata is better without saying why.
Again. If you don't ask for it or don't show any inclination or hint that you don't know what it is or that you need an explanation, then no one can help you. You need to make it clear what you want your opponent to support and what not. I'm not a telepath.
So please actually state objectively what Frog Kata does, or else my argument is impossible, and your arguments are invalid.
This^ is how you do it. I'll have the scans up in a while.
@streak619: That still is a claim without providing evidence or back up.
Expecting you to read my mind? It doesn’t take rocket science to assume that if you state that something is undodgeable without any proof, that you are expected to provide reasons to validate your claims. Providing reasoning or proof in an argument is something that you need to know is expected of everyone here no matter what.
Again, explaining your claims is expected of you in a debate. If you expect people to accept your word without validation then I don’t know what to tell you. You’ve repeatedly said that nothing I’ve said beats out Frog Kata, you defending this stance without informing us what Frog Kata can do would be illogical.
In your first post, you did not outright deny it. You have only done so now.
Referring to the nature energy part, I mean that there are not enough fundamental differences to say that Goku would be totally oblivious to any and every natural energy based attack. Sorry if it came out wrong ?.
And no matter what I say I’m completely and totally wrong even if I did provide scans saying otherwise? And you are right without providing scans or evidence or explaining why? Good to know. It is a pretty accurate portrayal of this debate so far.
Yes, and no. If a fighter was predicting his opponents moves in real life based purely on seeing how they fight, we most likely would not consider it precognition. But this is Goku, so to avoid false equivalence, I’ll let my comparisons go here. What I thought that you meant was that Goku did not attain precognition via fighting talent but rather through some innate ability. I see now I was wrong and apologize for thinking so. But Goku getting precognition via pure fighting experience/prowess is extremely impressive and something that should be taken into account as a feat.
I reiterate the statement please read post #12.
This specific argument is right and has basis in fact. But it doesn’t justify using the word no as an argument no matter how well thought out your reasoning may be. You only posted no beforehand without stating your reasoning. To use your favorite phrase “I don’t have telepathy”. And the no also referred to the fallacious statement argument which you never did back up.
Again, I just need you to do what you hate most........provide reasoning for your claims. And I kept asking you about Frog Kata. I asked about its range, what it can do and more and you have just stated you don’t have telepathy and avoided answering. I ask and ask and don’t get answers. That is not on me. Don’t ignore providing arguments that are common sense and that I ask for and ask how you could have known.
And PS, debunk my feats or else they apply here. This is another post that you have ignored over and over. You can’t state that my feats would not beat Frog Kata without providing reasons why.
And remember that I am assuming that sage mode is in the first round which I have provided evidence against multiple times. And what answer does he have for MUI which has better H2H hax, a better multiplier, and only been tagged by Jiren, and only with his own UI/PIS power up buff form that may be some sort of UI in itself.
@streak619: That still is a claim without providing evidence or back up.
No it wasn't. It wasn't a claim. That much is clear.
Expecting you to read my mind? It doesn’t take rocket science to assume that if you state that something is undodgeable without any proof, that you are expected to provide reasons to validate your claims. Providing reasoning or proof in an argument is something that you need to know is expected of everyone here no matter what.
Not unless your opponent already knows exactly what you're talking about, which is what your demeanor led me to believe. Your demeanor suggested you already knew what KK was which is misleading. Make your demands clearer is all I'm saying.
In your first post, you did not outright deny it. You have only done so now.
Because a) I never claimed KK was omnipotent, I claimed nature energy was omnipotent so that's a strawman fallacy from your end and b) Common sense tells you it's obviously not possible.
Referring to the nature energy part, I mean that there are not enough fundamental differences to say that Goku would be totally oblivious to any and every natural energy based attack. Sorry if it came out wrong ?.
Doesn't really matter. They're not equalised here
And no matter what I say I’m completely and totally wrong even if I did provide scans saying otherwise?
In this and only this particular case(JIC you take all of this out of context), yes because it's a convention, it's a rule, custom, tradition here on CV that if energies are not specified to be equalised, then they're not. Since the OP has not equalised anything, they're not equalised. You can't debunk rules with scans, that's common sense.
And you are right without providing scans or evidence or explaining why?
It's a rule. I'm not making a claim. I'm just telling you what the rules are. If you want to debate against rules, be my guest.
Good to know. It is a pretty accurate portrayal of this debate so far.
It really isn't. You can't win against a rule.
Yes, and no. If a fighter was predicting his opponents moves in real life based purely on seeing how they fight, we most likely would not consider it precognition.
I disagree. Predicting yhe future regardless of the means is, by definition, precog.
But this is Goku, so to avoid false equivalence, I’ll let my comparisons go here. What I thought that you meant was that Goku did not attain precognition via fighting talent but rather through some innate ability. I see now I was wrong and apologize for thinking so. But Goku getting precognition via pure fighting experience/prowess is extremely impressive and something that should be taken into account as a feat.
Cool
I reiterate the statement please read post #12.
It was by someone else?
This specific argument is right and has basis in fact. But it doesn’t justify using the word no as an argument no matter how well thought out your reasoning may be. You only posted no beforehand without stating your reasoning. To use your favorite phrase “I don’t have telepathy”. And the no also referred to the fallacious statement argument which you never did back up.
Fair enough
Again, I just need you to do what you hate most........provide reasoning for your claims.
I said I would do it. Give me some time. No need to keep bugging me like a child.
And I kept asking you about Frog Kata.
From your previous reply.
I asked about its range, what it can do and more and you have just stated you don’t have telepathy and avoided answering.
Intentional strawman fallacy. I already told you I'd give you evidence soon.
I ask and ask and don’t get answers.
For one post now.
That is not on me. Don’t ignore providing arguments that are common sense and that I ask for and ask how you could have known.
It's not common sense to assume that your opponent wants to see your evidence when everything about their demeanor and choice words imply that he already knows what you're talking about. It's common sense to assume otherwise, you're making zero sense here.
Simple example. What if I suddenly say right now: "Well you haven't proved that Goku can sense spirit energy." What would be your reaction? You'd ask "Well why didn't you say that you didn't know anything about it? Why did you go with the flow without ever once hinting whatsoever that you didn't know something so elementary?"
That's exactly how it is to debate with you. When you lack even elementary knowledge, you go with the flow and your opponent thinks you know what you're talking about and then you suddenly start demanding for evidence lol. But as I said I'll have it up soon.
And PS, debunk my feats or else they apply here. This is another post that you have ignored over and over. You can’t state that my feats would not beat Frog Kata without providing reasons why.
Good think that I didn't. Or are you going to abuse yet another strawman? Where did I make such an explicit claim?
And remember that I am assuming that sage mode is in the first round which I have provided evidence against multiple times.
Not really. But I'll have the scams for KK up soon.
And what answer does he have for MUI which has better H2H hax, a better multiplier, and only been tagged by Jiren, and only with his own UI/PIS power up buff form that may be some sort of UI in itself.
@streak619: Saying Naruto would stalemate at the very least is a claim dude.
You have provided no quotes to suggest that I automatically came off as knowing about KK. I have asked multiple times for capabilities of KK, very explicitly two posts ago. And while I know you are searching for scans, just making a concise summary would be cool.
You said before that nature energy was omnipresent, and I therefore asked if you meant that about KK as well, so you said that nature energy was omnipresent which didn’t answer my question. Ironically you are providing the straw man fallacy here. You claimed that I said you thought nature energy was omnipotent which I NEVER did at any point. All I said is that you evaded answering if KK was omnipresent, which is true. And since when has nature energy been omnipotent?
I won’t argue this as you are right about the rule. However the situation is/was an allegory for our debate, though you finally seem to be getting to the scans.
I’m saying that you have only now started to post feats, didn’t acknowledge any of my extensive list of them, and I had to beg you for feats to support your argument.
Didn’t finish reading the post did you?
I meant post #11. Sorry! That is by the OP BTW and clears up the base/sage argument.
I have asked you once after several hours where your feats are. You haven’t provided any evidence so far, so to assume that you dislike doing so is apparent given how specific I had to be to get you to start gathering any evidence. And why should I stop being childish? I’m just a 13 year old with a good vocabulary ?.
I had asked you in my previous posts as well. One example is the range of Frog Kata which you still haven’t provided. You don’t even need a buttload of feats for that, just give me a short overview. It is not that hard man. So if you respond to this section, give a quick review for Frog Kata which covers the range.
You haven’t provided evidence (don’t worry, I know it’ll be up soon). And again, you don’t need scans to explain mechanics. Except for my overly explicit paragraph begging for feats, my other Frog Kata questions did receive the aforementioned treatment.
At least two posts beforehand ask questions pertaining to Frog Kata.
Even if I did know what you were talking about, that doesn’t mean you are excused from providing evidence. Even if you know about Dragonball, I still provided multiple feats and reasons why Goku would win. Your excuse is not valid as it could result in many misunderstandings. Even if Frog Kata was common knowledge to me, I am on Goku’s side so you would have to have an argument to convince me of why Frog Kata wins.
No, I would have just provided you the training on King Kai’s Planet. That is what I have done so far. Or just say look up the feat and tell you to look for ‘Spirit Bomb’ or ‘How Spirit Bomb Works’ seems a lot easier and less annoying than saying well how was I supposed to know?
Knowing the mechanics of Naruto’s sage mode taijutsu Frog style is not elementary knowledge. And why would your opponent knowing the series make it so you should not have to have evidence? You presumably know about Dragonball, so why should I have to prove anything based on this reasoning? It is inconceivably unrealistic that you providing evidence depends on what your opponent knows about Naruto. If they know about KK, then they consider it not enough here, and you should be able to provide an argument why it is. This is on you.
Sorry! That was rabii99. I must have mixed up your post and his about the subject. (Speaking of which, we’re having a CaV of this on the ninth or so. I think I’m going to win considering he argued for part one Sasuke beating Garou because he survived needles from Haku). Again this was a mistake on my part!
@streak619: EDIT: Turns out you did state that my feats would not beat Frog Kata, not rabii99. End of post #69 to be exact.
I said 'most'. That doesn't mean I'm saying that he can't do it. I'm just not conviced that he can based off of everything you've provided. I repeat, saying I'm not convinced that he can do it, based off of your arguments, is not the same as saying KK>Goku. I'm still neutral. Anyways this should sum up Kawazu Kumite:
Gallery
Goku normall dodges quite narrowly in h2h combat against people with equal stats, which he won't be able to do here. He can't sense nature energy since there is no equalisation. He can't use precog early off, if at all, because that required watching your opponent from a distance prior to fighting them. While he does outskill Naruto in a pure raw fist fight, that really doesn't apply for SM.
@streak619: Yes but my problem was the lack of evidence (at the time) and dismissing my feats without back up. Something you said was me straw Manning you. True he would dodge very narrowly at first if at all. However, he can definitely tank enough hits to adapt to the style of Naruto. And why does the precognition require watching from afar? He did it in battle every time. Against Tao, Hit, Tien, and Roshi he learned their movements in the middle of battle. The range advantage is very slight from the scan shown, but definitely does help here. However Goku has feats of adapting to attacks such as this. Dodging attacks he couldn’t see was part of his training with Popo as he learned to fight with his eyes closed. This was later expanded upon in Z when he fought Yakon as an SSJ. Even though he was blinded, he detected Yakon’s Attacks via air currents and was able to dodge. Kawazu Kumite has been stated to be an extension of Naruto’s body which most likely would produce air currents when attacking. The most likely scenario is that Naruto gets a few licks in and Goku realizes something is wrong as he seems to be hit when he dodges. Only then, would he actually start to try sensing the air currents as beforehand he would relied on Naruto’s body language beforehand. He most likely then would win as he can avoid the Kawazu Kumite now and has far superior hand to hand. Plus the attacks Naruto would have thrown prior would have clued in Goku to Naruto’s style somewhat. Whereas Naruto’s precognition would most likely be inconsequential as his opponent has it as well and has superior H2H.
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