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#1 Edited by Oreoghoul (1659 posts) - - Show Bio
Goku v.s A17
Goku v.s A17

Rules:

  • In-Character
  • Win by Incap, KO or Death
  • Goku is SSB KKx10 (cannot go to x20)
  • Standard Gear
  • Random Encounter
  • Who Wins and Why?

Location:

No Caption Provided

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#2 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7525 posts) - - Show Bio

17 can win but goku probably will win

if 17 uses one of his self destructs its game over

Goku 7/10

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#3 Posted by malikc6 (726 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Goku should be able to go Kaoi-Kenx20 considering just how well 17 did against Jiren, and Goku wasn't doing any damage to Jiren whatsoever. In any case, I think it could go virtually either way with 17 having limitless stamina and very decent defenses (chi barriers), but Goku has more fighting experience and a variety of many techniques he could use. 50/50.

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#4 Edited by omriamar (7068 posts) - - Show Bio

Blue can beat him

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#5 Posted by thegreatlordd (1258 posts) - - Show Bio

17 is around Blue Tier (give or take), but not SSBKX10 Tier, Goku should take this.

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#6 Posted by GoldenCellForm2 (202 posts) - - Show Bio

I think 17 is equal to a serious SSJ Blue so anything around or above Kaio Ken amped SSJ Blue would beat 17. 17 was just very versatile with his uniqueness of never running out of ammo and an incredibly durable Shield, but to put him on the level of SSJ Blue KK level because he managed to block an attack from Jiren via Shield would not be right. He can endure such attacks that are more powerful than him because of his powerful Shield not because he himself is as powerful as the said attack.

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#7 Posted by Shenron007 (2110 posts) - - Show Bio

Andriod 17 >>> Jiren >>> moving ui Goku >>> kefla 2 >>> Dyspo >>> GOLDEN FRIEZA >>> RB Vegeta >>> Toppo >>> defensive ui goku.

Frièza is as strong as mui goku as he claimed he would kill jiren if it wasn't for the tournament rules.

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#8 Edited by Scotchbear (2114 posts) - - Show Bio

This arena favors goku by huge amounts

17 relies on strategy and constant movement to beat people.

This arena gives him no room

Goku clocks him hard

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#9 Posted by Scotchbear (2114 posts) - - Show Bio

@shenron007: actually final form Frieza+ssj goku>jiren>17

Ssj goku stomps MUI Goku

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#10 Posted by ComicGirl21 (1086 posts) - - Show Bio

I hardly doubt Goku in kaiokenx10 will be able to get past 17's shields if full power Toppo and Anilaza couldnt. This will be a problem for Goku.

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#11 Posted by thegreatlordd (1258 posts) - - Show Bio

Andriod 17 >>> Jiren >>> moving ui Goku >>> kefla 2 >>> Dyspo >>> GOLDEN FRIEZA >>> RB Vegeta >>> Toppo >>> defensive ui goku.

Frièza is as strong as mui goku as he claimed he would kill jiren if it wasn't for the tournament rules.

Lol, you have a great sense of humor.

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#12 Posted by Oreoghoul (1659 posts) - - Show Bio

This arena favors goku by huge amounts

17 relies on strategy and constant movement to beat people.

This arena gives him no room

Goku clocks him hard

They aren't restricted to the platform only

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#13 Edited by Chronicplane (8824 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah Goku wins this while I do believe 17 would stand a solid chance of beating Goku in Blue Form adding KK on top of that gives him a massive power advantage although 17 does have some redeeming qualities which I'll quickly list off.

  • + He's more strategic and analytical than Goku
  • + Trumps him in endurance and defense thanks to his infinite Stamina and Energy barriers
  • + Self destruct can obliterate Goku (Although I don't think he'd use such a move on one of his closest allies and wouldn't put himself at risk under normal conditions)

However Goku has advantages that benefit him way more in this scenario and certain areas where 17 is at a disadvantage.

  • - Environment ultimately benefits Goku more than 17 being very narrow and small leaves little to no options for 17 to exploit and allows Goku to focus on his opponent with no room to escape.
  • - Due to KKx10 Goku has an enormous power advantage over 17 including physicals (especially speed) which simply trump 17's advantages
  • - Is a better fighter in martial arts combat/H2H.

Goku wins this 7/10, Not a stomp but I simply don't see him loosing with KK he'd have to work for it but his advantages over 17 he simply overwhelms him. The only ways I could see 17 winning is If he either self destructs or attempts to outlast him both options that won't work in this scenario.

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#14 Posted by Shenron007 (2110 posts) - - Show Bio

@scotchbear: that scene with 100% frieza and ssj goku: frieza said Jiren doesn't seem as strong as before,yet jiren disagreed with him. how ssj goku and 100% frieza got him of the ring was major bllsht.

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#15 Posted by Oreoghoul (1659 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by Slade-Prime (1245 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku wins.

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#17 Posted by blackknighting (408 posts) - - Show Bio

I hate that power creeper, Goku turns him into oil.

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#18 Edited by CaptFalcon725 (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

@shenron007 said:

Andriod 17 >>> Jiren >>> moving ui Goku >>> kefla 2 >>> Dyspo >>> GOLDEN FRIEZA >>> RB Vegeta >>> Toppo >>> defensive ui goku.

Frièza is as strong as mui goku as he claimed he would kill jiren if it wasn't for the tournament rules.

MUI Goku>True Serious Jiren>>(Final Before MUI) UI Omen Goku>>Jiren before the last boost>(End of Super) RB/SSJB Beyond Vegeta>(End of Super) SSJB Kaioken x20 Goku>(End of Super) Golden Frieza>(End of Super) SSJB Kaioken x10 Goku (roughly equal to) Sort-of-GofD Toppo (roughly equal) SSJ2 Kefla>>>Dyspo (Roughly Equal To) SSJB Goku/Vegeta

There I fixed it.

I could throw other characters in here.

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#19 Posted by deactivated-5b84aca03eae8 (6261 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku

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#20 Posted by Shenron007 (2110 posts) - - Show Bio

@captfalcon725: you haven't listed 17,

and the and the Andriod done things non of the others can tank. except for Jiren and Mui Goku.

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#21 Posted by Dession_Viper (742 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku should be able to handle 17 in his SSG form.

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#22 Posted by Tiramisu (333 posts) - - Show Bio

SSB Goku can probably win.

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#23 Posted by LeonardoTMNT (2794 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku should be able to handle 17 in his SSG form.

17 would beat SSJG Goku with little difficulty. The comparison being that all of SSJG Goku's attacks against a suppressed Jiren were blocked with one finger. On the flip side 17 did better against a powered up Jiren.

As for the question itself. Goku Kaio-Ken x10 should take this.

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#24 Posted by Dession_Viper (742 posts) - - Show Bio

@dession_viper said:

Goku should be able to handle 17 in his SSG form.

17 would beat SSJG Goku with little difficulty. The comparison being that all of SSJG Goku's attacks against a suppressed Jiren were blocked with one finger. On the flip side 17 did better against a powered up Jiren.

As for the question itself. Goku Kaio-Ken x10 should take this.

Same reason Jiren had to block Base tired Vegeta's attacks but was able to tank ssj and ssj2 goku's punches like nothing.

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#25 Posted by thegreatlordd (1258 posts) - - Show Bio

@captfalcon725:

MUI Goku>True Serious Jiren

This was not his "true serious" power but rather his Hidden Power that was triggered by remembering his past trauma.

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130 Preview refers to the battle as "breaking both their limits."

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He used his full power back in Episode 129 with the Crimson Aura.

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MUI Goku was also only greater with the friendship/rage boost, prior to it he was getting overwhelmed.

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Golden Frieza>(End of Super) SSJB Kaioken x10 Goku (roughly equal to) Sort-of-GofD Toppo (roughly equal)

What's the basis for these statements?

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#26 Posted by CaptFalcon725 (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

@thegreatlordd I did that in a rush let me edit.

MUI Goku>True Serious Jiren>>(Final Before MUI) UI Omen Goku>>Jiren before the last boost>(End of Super) RB/SSJB Beyond Vegeta>(End of Super)> SSJB Kaioken x20 Goku> Sort-of-GofD Toppo (End of Super) Golden Frieza> (End of Super) Android 17 (roughly equal to) (End of Super) SSJB Kaioken x10 Goku (roughly equal) SSJ2 Kefla>>>Dyspo (Roughly Equal To) SSJB Goku/Vegeta

There I fixed it.

Golden Frieza during the Resurrection F arc was stronger than SSJB Goku or Vegeta but had not mastered the form.

True Golden Frieza is at least on par with SSJB Goku but I feel like Android 17 is roughly equal to True Golden Frieza and SSJB Kaioken x10 Goku.

Kefla is tough to scale because she was a plot device. Dyspo is fodder.
And for MUI Goku to have that extra boost him, he's more powerful than the True Serious Jiren.

It was all extra boosts for plot's sake, but it's still canon but tough to scale.

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#27 Posted by thegreatlordd (1258 posts) - - Show Bio

@captfalcon725:

And for MUI Goku to have that extra boost him, he's more powerful than the True Serious Jiren.

It was all extra boosts for plot's sake, but it's still canon but tough to scale.

It's not his "true serious", he was serious since Episode 127, it is his Limit Breaking Power.

It can be scaled as Nakama/Friend boost MUI Goku > Limit Breaker Jiren > Standard MUI Goku.

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#28 Posted by CaptFalcon725 (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

@captfalcon725:

And for MUI Goku to have that extra boost him, he's more powerful than the True Serious Jiren.

It was all extra boosts for plot's sake, but it's still canon but tough to scale.

It's not his "true serious", he was serious since Episode 127, it is his Limit Breaking Power.

It can be scaled as Nakama/Friend boost MUI Goku > Limit Breaker Jiren > Standard MUI Goku.

Semantics, so I will agree to agree. LOL

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#29 Posted by midnightdragon18 (9869 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate

If 17 uses his rasengan, then it’s game over

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#30 Posted by deactivated-5b9c488ed7f76 (10909 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by AlexTheBoss (16927 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku doesn't need kaioken.

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#32 Posted by EmpressOfDread (12367 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Edited by Gaoron (8211 posts) - - Show Bio

It's not fair with kaioken.

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#34 Edited by RedHood_JayTodd (1398 posts) - - Show Bio

17 can beat regular SSB Goku, but loses to KKx10 SSB Goku.

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#35 Posted by LimitlessSigil (3853 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku easily.

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#36 Posted by infamous5445 (379 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku beats him with Blue.

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#37 Posted by Paytience (4710 posts) - - Show Bio

17...there is no getting around the stamina issue for everyone of Goku's transformations. There isn't way for him to match 17 without taking a form that drains vigor at a higher rate then he can damage 17.

As for KKx20? Go for it. Goku has literally lost every fight in which he depended on Kaio Ken.

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#38 Posted by Standardized (1187 posts) - - Show Bio

17...there is no getting around the stamina issue for everyone of Goku's transformations. There isn't way for him to match 17 without taking a form that drains vigor at a higher rate then he can damage 17.

As for KKx20? Go for it. Goku has literally lost every fight in which he depended on Kaio Ken.

Goku has enough stamina to beat 17 in a fight.

Kaioken x 20 isn't needed to win post TOP goku in just ssjb would win.

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#39 Edited by Paytience (4710 posts) - - Show Bio

@standardized: Well I disagree. It doesn't matter how much ki Goku has. The amount of ki that he can generate as fighting power is hard limited by the tranformatin he is in, and his ability to stay there is directly tied to his vigor...an dlike it or not, no form Goku has gives him enough fighting power to blow through 17 before Goku get's tired. 17 needs to to take damage in order to bea thm sinc ehe cannot be tired out. The damage Goku does is not going to more then the stam drain it causes him. He needs to put 17 out of the fight in one big hit, and he can't imo do so for various reasons...first, an attack that large is risky because of stam drain, and second because 17 is better tactically then he is and has barriers.

The simple fact is ,an dpeople tend to overlook this...Goku has never, ever, from DBZ on...Goku has never beaten a main villain. Not really...and the two he has beaten he needed help.

Let's look at his record...his last and only win against a character was Piccolo at the world tourney. After that:

Raditz killed him, Vegeta beat him...the KK left hm paralyzed. Frieza beat his ass using KK. SSJ miracle saved him. The androids? Beat him. Frieza...killed by trunks. Cell beat him. Buu saga- Majin Vegeta beat him, Super Buu clowned him, kid Buu beat him. It took interference from Vegeta to distract Buu for Goku to win. Beerus of course beat him. 6v7 tourney. Frost beat him...Vegeta clears the tourney to hit. Goku get's told what Hit is doing and wat hes the whole fight...Hit still beats him. Copy Vegeta was winning...Black beat him. Toppo was winning...Jiren Beat him.

Goku's record is trash and it's trash specifically because of stam drain. He isn't beating 17...the Androids are a perfect a hard counter to Sayans. So long as they are in the same tier, which they are, 17 wins.

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#40 Posted by Standardized (1187 posts) - - Show Bio

@standardized: Well I disagree. It doesn't matter how much ki Goku has. The amount of ki that he can generate as fighting power is hard limited by the tranformatin he is in, and his ability to stay there is directly tied to his vigor...an dlike it or not, no form Goku has gives him enough fighting power to blow through 17 before Goku get's tired. 17 needs to to take damage in order to bea thm sinc ehe cannot be tired out. The damage Goku does is not going to more then the stam drain it causes him. He needs to put 17 out of the fight in one big hit, and he can't imo do so for various reasons...first, an attack that large is risky because of stam drain, and second because 17 is better tactically then he is and has barriers.

The simple fact is ,an dpeople tend to overlook this...Goku has never, ever, from DBZ on...Goku has never beaten a main villain. Not really...and the two he has beaten he needed help.

Let's look at his record...his last and only win against a character was Piccolo at the world tourney. After that:

Raditz killed him, Vegeta beat him...the KK left hm paralyzed. Frieza beat his ass using KK. SSJ miracle saved him. The androids? Beat him. Frieza...killed by trunks. Cell beat him. Buu saga- Majin Vegeta beat him, Super Buu clowned him, kid Buu beat him. It took interference from Vegeta to distract Buu for Goku to win. Beerus of course beat him. 6v7 tourney. Frost beat him...Vegeta clears the tourney to hit. Goku get's told what Hit is doing and wat hes the whole fight...Hit still beats him. Copy Vegeta was winning...Black beat him. Toppo was winning...Jiren Beat him.

Goku's record is trash and it's trash specifically because of stam drain. He isn't beating 17...the Androids are a perfect a hard counter to Sayans. So long as they are in the same tier, which they are, 17 wins.

What do you mean it doesn't matter how much ki goku has? That's literally what dragon ball is about. More ki = stronger.

17 might have infinite energy but he can still be damaged.

His record isn't trash because of stamina drain lmao a majority of the times he's lost is just because his opponent simply has a higher battle power.

Kk no longer paralyzes goku, Majin vegeta only ko'ed goku when he caught him off guard and told him the fight was over. Frost only "won" because he cheated and used a poison on goku. When was toppo winning against goku? And beerus outright stated that goku had won against a jiren.

SSJB is still to much for 17 to handle.

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#41 Posted by Paytience (4710 posts) - - Show Bio

@standardized: No it isn't how Ki works. Ki and fighting power are not the same thing. Ki is your life force, but that life force can only be harnessed as fighting energy to the limits that the physical body allows. This was the explanation given by Roshi when training Goku, and it's one of the reasons Ginyu took time figuring out how to use Goku's power. The ssj transformations increase the bodies physical potential, but at the cost of stamina. The SSB and SSJ3 trasformations for example are hugely draining. The Z fighters specifically are able to use ki to enhance their physical potential and thus the amount of fighting energy they can generate but there is a trade off in vigor.

The androids however do not use ki. They have infinite energy generators and thus infinite life force. N/M the fact that Goku's ki sense means nothing against them meaning the fight is completely physical.

Now...take this into account. Goku's base form is not even close to parity with the Androids. Android 18 was one handing effortlessly tossing Tuppa whule Tuppa was crushing Goku through Katchi Katchin. You understand?

In order to even maintain physical parity with 17 Goku has to sacrifice stam. 17 Does not have to worry at all. 17 can expends all his potential energy at any given time and still generate more immediately after.

Goku cannot.

Without amps, Goku Blue is not a Jiren level opponent. He is not God Toppo level. Without amps, he is not powerful enough to one shot 17 down, and because of that, he will always inevitably hit a wall.

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#42 Posted by Standardized (1187 posts) - - Show Bio

@standardized: No it isn't how Ki works. Ki and fighting power are not the same thing. Ki is your life force, but that life force can only be harnessed as fighting energy to the limits that the physical body allows. This was the explanation given by Roshi when training Goku, and it's one of the reasons Ginyu took time figuring out how to use Goku's power. The ssj transformations increase the bodies physical potential, but at the cost of stamina. The SSB and SSJ3 trasformations for example are hugely draining. The Z fighters specifically are able to use ki to enhance their physical potential and thus the amount of fighting energy they can generate but there is a trade off in vigor.

The androids however do not use ki. They have infinite energy generators and thus infinite life force. N/M the fact that Goku's ki sense means nothing against them meaning the fight is completely physical.

Now...take this into account. Goku's base form is not even close to parity with the Androids. Android 18 was one handing effortlessly tossing Tuppa whule Tuppa was crushing Goku through Katchi Katchin. You understand?

In order to even maintain physical parity with 17 Goku has to sacrifice stam. 17 Does not have to worry at all. 17 can expends all his potential energy at any given time and still generate more immediately after.

Goku cannot.

Without amps, Goku Blue is not a Jiren level opponent. He is not God Toppo level. Without amps, he is not powerful enough to one shot 17 down, and because of that, he will always inevitably hit a wall.

Yes that's exactly how ki works. The stronger your ki becomes the more your battle power increases.

Most db fights are often completely physical.

Goku could stand in base in a "black hole" meanwhile 17 and 18 couldn't.

Yes I know ssjb isn't jiren level or god toppo level but neither is 17. He couldn't do anything to toppo and the only times he hurt jiren was when he caught him off guard and the other time was when he was heavily drained after his fight with goku.

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#43 Posted by Eeef (2039 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku doesn't need Kaioken, in order to beat 17.

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#44 Edited by Paytience (4710 posts) - - Show Bio

@standardized: Oh really. Interesting. The bigger ki.

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Exactly how big is 17's ki then?

Universe 9?

How about Moro? How big is his ki?

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#45 Posted by DoctorDaMn (884 posts) - - Show Bio

@paytience: STOP SAYING THAT!!! THE GOKU NUTHUGGERS WILL JUMP YOU!!

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#46 Posted by Standardized (1187 posts) - - Show Bio

@standardized: Oh really. Interesting. The bigger ki.

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Exactly how big is 17's ki then?

Universe 9?

How about Moro? How big is his ki?

17 is an android.

What about universe 9?

moro can ki drain.

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