@omarlionvision: It's not Hao himself who is omnipotent, but only the Great Spirit.
However, since Hao became the Shaman King, he got a great deal (though not perfect) control of the Great Spirit, so Hao can be considered nigh-omnipotent only.
@ovy7: How is Goku gonna stomp the 5 elemental warriors (Horohoro, Chocolove, Tao Ren, Lyserg, Yoh) - who tanked & survived the heat & power of a SUN which had been created by Hao ?
On top of that, Yoh has power nullification, so Ki-Blast won't work on Yoh. (Shaman King's Furyoku is the equivalent of DBZ' Ki)
I haven't expected to argue FOR Dragon Ball in this thread lol
@kagomae: He stomps them because he's much faster and stronger than the Elemental Warriors. If Yoh has power nullification that doesn't mean he can use it on characters that are magnitudes stronger than him. If he could, then the warriors would have won against Hao, not just make him change his mind.
@omarlionvision: It's not Hao himself who is omnipotent, but only the Great Spirit.
However, since Hao became the Shaman King, he got a great deal (though not perfect) control of the Great Spirit, so Hao can be considered nigh-omnipotent only.
Is the Great Spirit actually Omnipotent though? Could we.... get a citation or a statement?
Is the Great Spirit actually Omnipotent though? Could we.... get a citation or a statement?
Here:
Though, this could be as valid as Odin's omnipotence statements, for example. I don't think Hao is truly omnipotent (like TOAA for example), just a powerful reality warper (casually creating black holes, starts, and making stars go supernova).
Also, he's immortal IIRC. Yoh and co. decapitated him and he still devoured their souls even after that.
Is the Great Spirit actually Omnipotent though? Could we.... get a citation or a statement?
Here:
Though, this could be as valid as Odin's omnipotence statements, for example. I don't think Hao is truly omnipotent (like TOAA for example), just a powerful reality warper (casually creating black holes, starts, and making stars go supernova).
Also, he's immortal IIRC. Yoh and co. decapitated him and he still devoured their souls even after that.
That's good enough. I'm convinced the Great Spirit is Omnipotent, until further notice of anything intrinsically disproving it.
Omnipotence by statement is good enough to confirm a character is Omnipotent, unless the author does something stupid, the author did not mean to mean it is literally by the book Omnipotent.
It's interesting however, that the 'Omnipotence' is indeed only true for the 'Great Spirit' itself, whereas the Shaman King (despite being the master of the G.S.) is not.
It's obvious that Hao himself was neither omniscient nor omnipotent - in fact, Hao was surprised / couldn't explain why Yoh + all the other souls could remain inside his dimension although he wished for them to disappear.
It was established very early in the manga already, that in some cases the power of the Guardian Spirit (== Reiryoku) can be much higher than the power of the master who commands it (== Furyoku). So in case of Hao + The Great Spirit it is similar.
Also, sometimes , if the master of a spirit and the spirit itself have unsurmountable disagreement on what to do, the master loses control, too.
So although it can be refuted easily that Hao himself is omnipotent (and despite commanding the G.S.), the omnipotence of the Great Spirit itself remains a fact.
But for as long as the Master / Shaman King (== Hao) doesn't wish to do something which is strictly against the will of the (truly omnipotent) Great Spirit , there is indeed hardly any limit to what Hao can do, so therefore Hao can safely be considered Nigh-Omnipotent.
It's interesting however, that the 'Omnipotence' is indeed only true for the 'Great Spirit' itself, whereas the Shaman King (despite being the master of the G.S.) is not.
It's obvious that Hao himself was neither omniscient nor omnipotent - in fact, Hao was surprised / couldn't explain why Yoh + all the other souls could remain inside his dimension although he wished for them to disappear.
It was established very early in the manga already, that in some cases the power of the Guardian Spirit (== Reiryoku) can be much higher than the power of the master who commands it (== Furyoku). So in case of Hao + The Great Spirit it is similar.
Also, sometimes , if the master of a spirit and the spirit itself have unsurmountable disagreement on what to do, the master loses control, too.
So although it can be refuted easily that Hao himself is omnipotent (and despite commanding the G.S.), while the omnipotence of the Great Spirit itself remains a fact.
But for as long as the Master / Shaman King (== Hao) doesn't wish to do something which is strictly against the will of the (truly omnipotent) Great Spirit , there is indeed hardly any limit to what Hao can do, so therefore Hao can safely be considered Nigh-Omnipotent.
I agree with this. Hao is merely getting his Raw Warp God power from the Great Spirit, his setting's Omnipotent.
Hao is what I would call "Omni-Backed" then. His "Omnipotence" is as you say, totally dependent on being sourced/backed by a Real Omnipotent in his setting, of which I merely categorize as a variation of High End Nigh Omnipotence, as there are many variations of Nigh Omnipotence. Arguably, God Spawn and HOTU Thanos is like this as well. Since they get Omni-backing.
It's kind of arguable that being Backed by an Omnipotent >>>>>>>> All Kinds of High End Nigh Omnipotence, because Nigh Omnipotence by Omni backing is pretty much a big deal.
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Which leads to the question of this thread, it's pretty fucking obvious that Goku is ridiculously way out of his league to be even considered fighting Hao at all. I have no idea why the OP even included Hao in the gauntlet.
In fact, there are VERY little non-Omni characters in fiction who can even stalemate Hao let lone. Even the likes of Living Tribunal, Semi-Wanked Demonbane, Pre-Retcon Beyonder, Mother Night, Oblivion, Hajun, Yog Sothoth, Nyarlanthotep or Featherine are not getting past Hao, at the very least, if they want to stalemate them, they must get backing from their respective Omnipotent Creators as well. But they don't, so they're all screwed. So why pit Goku against Hao anyway?
Unless one is to believe in the whole "All Omnipotents in Fiction are the same" theory, then it's gonna be a clusterfuck.
Hao is like only one could beat goku by the random amount of haxes/abilities will make even Galactus a bit confused.
but i still ain't calling him omnipotent just like the same reason why nobody aside from few fans say Tsuna from hitman reborn is faster than light speed from whole fake looking blackhole and sephiroth with his solar system supernova
Hao is like only one could beat goku by the random amount of haxes/abilities will make even Galactus a bit confused.
but i still ain't calling him omnipotent just like the same reason why nobody aside from few fans say Tsuna from hitman reborn is faster than light speed from whole fake looking blackhole and sephiroth with his solar system supernova
OF COURSE Hao is not LITERALLY Omnipotent. But it... doesn't really matter.
But if his Omnipotent gives him backing power, it is entirely forgivable for him to himself Omnipotent while omitting the details that make him not a true Omnipotent.
Some forms of Nigh Omnipotence is SO ridiculously close to Omnipotence that "Nigh" should be totally omitted due to the irrelevance. That's what Hao is.
@sungsam: Oh alright then and it just sometimes i felt annoyed with a manga/comic just exaggerated way too much yet never prove it aside from vague statements.
So yeah he is the one who beat Goku by having an insane amount of powers/haxes and broken logic from the writer.
I was expecting the universal shockwave feat but if you have another galaxy feat Goku has accomplished then by all means.
My feats hinge on the fact that the top tiers such as God of Destructions scale to universal in attack potency, so there attack potiecy is such. If you need proof of that reply and let me know.
Jiren, a warrior stated to be stronger than a God of Destruction charges a full power blast at Goku, expecting is it to end the Saiyan. What does Goku do?
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He catches it balls it up and crushes it.
This next feat is Vegeta's but it obviously scales to the stronger Goku
Hakai is stated to be a hax technique used by God of Destructions that completely erases beings from existence, even their very souls.
During Vegeta's battle with the God of Destruction candidate Toppo, Toppo blasts Vegeta with this many times with this potient energy. Vegeta pushes through it effortlessly.
@emanresu_20: well of course there is the universal shaking. You need multi galactic power to shake such a big thing consisting of BILLIONS of galaxies.
Then scaling from stomping jiren, who is stronger than a G.o.D who is universal, but universal goku seems to trigger a lot of people so I keep it at multi galactic to prevent flame wars.
Ok so now I would like somsee feats of the GoDs being Universal. Also the Hakai technique honestly has destroyed anything Universal or anything with Universal Durability.
Don’t know how many times this needs to be said but the shockwaves got stronger the further away they GoD from the fight. Closer you were to the epicenter the weaker the force was. The Eradrh and the other planets in the solar system were completely fine. If anything the punches were only planet level WHICH grew overtime to
@emanresu_20: The one who was actually hitting hard enough to destroy the universe at 60% power was actually beerus. Although,we saw goku maneuvering match blows to evenly match and cancel out those said universal busting shockwaves beerus was depicting at the latter.
We also have the beerus and champas feats that were backed up with legit statements.
That was explained to be because of a taboo. On top of that it was just a statement. We have know clue how long it would have taken to destroy the entire universe.
Nevermind that I’ve already stated the the closer you were to the shockwaves the weaker the force was. ThebWarth wasn’t even destroyed and that was the closest planet to the shockwaves.
What feats do they have of destroying the universe and not only that it was stated to be a taboo which is why the Universe would have ended.
@emanresu_20: the 2 universes would be destroyed regardless.. And if the whole universe was shaking with goku and beerus, I'm pretty sure it would happen with someone stronger than goku at that time vs beerus
“I’ve already stated the the closer you were to the shockwaves the weaker the force was. ThebWarth wasn’t even destroyed and that was the closest planet to the shockwaves.”
@emanresu_20: our solar system is less than 0.00000000000000000000001% of the universe. If our solar system still lives but the rest of the universe is destroyed, then the universe still considered destroyed. Heck when a building crumbles, most of its material is still there, but its considered destroyed isn't it? The same with the unuverse .
“I’ve already stated the the closer you were to the shockwaves the weaker the force was. ThebWarth wasn’t even destroyed and that was the closest planet to the shockwaves.”
@emanresu_20: did you even read what I said? Even if the earth wasn't destroyed or if the solar system wasn't. Heck even if the milky way wasn't destroyed, the rest of the universe would've been destroyed. 1 galaxy out of billions surviving doesn't mean the universe isn't destroyed...
Yes I did and so I ask you what is the point of “destroying the Universe” If the objects clear seat to your proximatity are taking the weakest force for the shockwaves? This is why I kept repeating “the closer you are to the epicenter the weaker the force would be.” So unless the opponent is in some far away galaxy they would only be taking something that is planet level in Origin.
@emanresu_20: Its quite obvious Champa and Beerus entering a serious clash would've ended the Universe in as little as one blow. Why the hell do you think the angels stop them every single time they start to actually get deadly serious. Also with the wave feat people seem to be under a misconception. The wave was a byproduct of their clashes. Even if you want to argue against the wave, the narrator still presents us with the fact that the punches producing said side effect were universal. No matter how badly you want to run from it, its the truth. You could try and say that Goku cant destroy a universe through conventional energy output(which is nonsensical), but it doesn't change the fact that he can centralize such power onto a single opponent with a single blow/punch. That is important in a vs match.
Goku is not getting past Hao who is backed up by an Omnipotent Spirit..... Never ever ever ever......... Hao could even arguably avert all the victories of Goku in the gauntlet itself with this backing...
And I know where this is going.. FEATS FEATS PROVE HE'S OMNIPOTENT WITH FEATS!!!!!
Regardless of what you think of Omnipotent characters... Omnipotence is provable only by statement and the absence of contradiction and the writer's competency.... So far, the Great Spirit qualifies, so therefore.... No amount of feats can prove Omnipotence, but lack of evidence =/= evidence of absence.
99.999999999999999999% of Depicted Fictional Feats RUN on Statements that we are expected to give the benefit of the doubt. And 99.99999999999999999999999% of Fictional Feats absolutely contradict every logical variable of reality and realism, so let's not even get there. Applying disbelief to Omnipotence in fiction would mean applying the same standard to every non-Omnipotence in fiction by default....
1. When Beerus and Champa were fighting you could see everything around them being destroyed with Hakai energy. It quite clearly showed the manner of which the Universe was going to be destroyed. It was going to go out in one poof. It could have been destroyed over time.
2. I’m not misinterpreting everything I am stating EXACTLY what is in the Anime. The Waves were increasing in strength the further they got from the initial strike. That is a fact.
The closer you were to the punches the Weaker the Waves were. That is a fact
The Earth and Bulmas space ship which was right below the shockwaves were fine meaning that the shockwaves couldn’t even destroy a planet until they were far enough away. That is a fact.
I’m not the one running from the truth, DBS fans no matter in what thread I’m in always throw a twist in the actual feat to ignore the most important detail about these shockwaves.
@emanresu_20: actually it is... Its not canon the the MAIN timeline, but its part of the db franchise. Heck, toriyama even designed broly. He said that those characters have their own timeline. Anyway the op didn't specify which one he wants so canon or non canon is valid.
@emanresu_20: op didn't specify which timeline and so you can use all timelines as it is all part of the db franchise. Since they're all in the same franchise, although inconsistent, you can scale
- they never got to the stage where Hakai was destroying things lol. If you want to show me the scene I’ll be glad to concede. Pulling these examples from thin air doesnt help your case. It’s literally stated that two Gods of destruction fighting would lead to the destruction of both universes as a side effect. Where from that basic statement do you get over time? Your the one making baseless conjecture lol.
- dood are you choosing to be ignorant or just ignoring every damn word I wrote there. You know I specifically said aside from the wave(read this part since it seems you like to skip things) it’s said their punches have universal output. That means that even if the wave acts in its own manner or is a production of say God Ki interacting with God Ki, the narrator points out the fists being specifically universal. So even if you say Goku can not wipe out a universe through conventional energy(which is nonsensical again), you have to accept he can apply that force to a single target.
- I don’t understand why you need to generalize a fan base and act in such a rude/aggressive manner. People like you ruin it for everybody else because you start flame wars. My points are solid and you’ve done nothing, but run around them. Either rely to what I’m saying and disprove it or just don’t respond at all.
- they never got to the stage where Hakai was destroying things lol. If you want to show me the scene I’ll be glad to concede. Pulling these examples from thin air doesnt help your case. It’s literally stated that two Gods of destruction fighting would lead to the destruction of both universes as a side effect. Where from that basic statement do you get over time? Your the one making baseless conjecture lol.
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Here is the scene you asked for. I could also ask you where in the statement did it state that the Universes would be destroyed intantly?
- dood are you choosing to be ignorant or just ignoring every damn word I wrote there. You know I specifically said aside from the wave(read this part since it seems you like to skip things) it’s said their punches have universal output. That means that even if the wave acts in its own manner or is a production of say God Ki interacting with God Ki, the narrator points out the fists being specifically universal. So even if you say Goku can not wipe out a universe through conventional energy(which is nonsensical again), you have to accept he can apply that force to a single target.
I find it ironic you're accusing me of skipping things when you definitely failed to mention the shockwaves growing in power the further they got from the epicenter. The Earth was completely fine as well as Bulma's space ship which was right under the fight. SO FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME the closer you were to the punches the weaker the force was because the force of the shockwaves didn't start destroying planets until they were outside of the solar system. There is no evidence supporting the claim that Goku can convert that much energy into an attack considering the output grew over time. That is actually supported by the manga.
- I don’t understand why you need to generalize a fan base and act in such a rude/aggressive manner. People like you ruin it for everybody else because you start flame wars. My points are solid and you’ve done nothing, but run around them. Either rely to what I’m saying and disprove it or just don’t respond at all.
I literally countered everything you said with evidence from the anime.
You haven't been on this sight long enough. DBZ fans on this sight have ruined it for themselves. They complain about other people downplaying DBS and believe since Dragonball has such a lack of feats they are entitled to their own form of measurements through power scaling and fan made multipliers, Then the same people who complain about downplaying DB go right ahead and downplay ever other anime Like Saint Seiya, Gurran Lagan, Superman, etc.
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