Goku Black vs Toppo

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#1 Edited by The_Hajduk (7306 posts) - - Show Bio
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BASE TOPPO

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#2 Posted by awshucks (507 posts) - - Show Bio

Black WILL get a powerup and surpass base Toppo.

Toppo MAY get a hakaishin powerup and fodderize Black.

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#3 Posted by Saiyan_Prince510 (283 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably Toppo

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#4 Posted by Vader3 (323 posts) - - Show Bio

Toppo because of destruction

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#5 Posted by jashro44 (55203 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd go with Toppo. Black was toying with 2 ssj blue tier characters using clones but I don't think he has a way to hurt Toppo and bypass his Hakai. I also don't think he can tank Toppo's hakai. Toppo should be able to of just charging through his clones and beating black.

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#6 Posted by Trndo (1119 posts) - - Show Bio

Why would a character a high tier character from a previous arc be stronger then a high tier character from a future arc? Either people are getting dumber or trolling. God Toppo one shots.

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#7 Posted by blackpantherisb (7602 posts) - - Show Bio

Toppo curbstomps.

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#8 Posted by PanzerX (605 posts) - - Show Bio

Toppo. Black was getting his ass beat by SSJB Vegeta, whereas Toppo did far better.

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#9 Posted by jashro44 (55203 posts) - - Show Bio

@panzerx said:

Toppo. Black was getting his ass beat by SSJB Vegeta, whereas Toppo did far better.

Black got stronger after that. He than toyed with Goku and Vegeta using clones.

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#10 Posted by Yamiyodare (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

Toppo low-mid diff

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#11 Posted by The_Hajduk (7306 posts) - - Show Bio

@vader3 said:

Toppo because of destruction

@jashro44 said:

I'd go with Toppo. Black was toying with 2 ssj blue tier characters using clones but I don't think he has a way to hurt Toppo and bypass his Hakai. I also don't think he can tank Toppo's hakai. Toppo should be able to of just charging through his clones and beating black.

@Trndo said:

Why would a character a high tier character from a previous arc be stronger then a high tier character from a future arc? Either people are getting dumber or trolling. God Toppo one shots.

THIS IS BASE TOPPO

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#12 Posted by cromulor (2817 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Vegeta got stronger after that during Pre-ToP training though and Toppo was fighting him pretty evenly.

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#13 Edited by jashro44 (55203 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk: How were we suppose to know? I guess black.

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#14 Posted by jashro44 (55203 posts) - - Show Bio

@cromulor: We can't really measure or quantify vegeta's growth prior to him unlocking his new form. He didn't show any massively better feats since the Goku black arc.

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#15 Posted by PanzerX (605 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk: Base Toppo was still around SSJB level as of the ToP.

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#16 Posted by The_Hajduk (7306 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@cromulor: We can't really measure or quantify vegeta's growth prior to him unlocking his new form. He didn't show any massively better feats since the Goku black arc.

He did so much better than Goku against Jiren.

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#17 Posted by JohnCena69swag (4180 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm gonna go with Goku Black here. I honestly dont see base Toppo as blue tier. The dude got his ass kicked by Goku without kaioken. Black proved himself to be on a level where he could have at least put up a fight against regular blue Goku.

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#18 Posted by Vader3 (323 posts) - - Show Bio

@vader3 said:

Toppo because of destruction

@jashro44 said:

I'd go with Toppo. Black was toying with 2 ssj blue tier characters using clones but I don't think he has a way to hurt Toppo and bypass his Hakai. I also don't think he can tank Toppo's hakai. Toppo should be able to of just charging through his clones and beating black.

@Trndo said:

Why would a character a high tier character from a previous arc be stronger then a high tier character from a future arc? Either people are getting dumber or trolling. God Toppo one shots.

THIS IS BASE TOPPO

k then black

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#19 Posted by jashro44 (55203 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@cromulor: We can't really measure or quantify vegeta's growth prior to him unlocking his new form. He didn't show any massively better feats since the Goku black arc.

He did so much better than Goku against Jiren.

I don't agree. Jiren wasn't even lifting a finger to counter Vegeta's attacks. We also see around the 50 second mark Jiren swats Vegeta aside without even acknowledging him and continues to fight goku. Vegeta does push Jiren a bit but at 2:30 Vegeta says he was faster and stronger when fighting Goku. Jiren than swats his galick gun and pummels him.

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Afterwards Vegeta charges his best final flash and he receives a compliment from Jiren. All though this could be due to the fact Vegeta was angry/motivated because Jiren said he would never defeat him.

Also Vegeta was stronger than Goku in the Goku black arc.

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#20 Posted by cromulor (2817 posts) - - Show Bio

@johncena69swag: Toppo wasn’t powered up when he was being beaten by Blue Goku. He powers up after Goku tears his uniform and they don’t end up fighting after that, but Goku still has a statement later on before the ToP where he believes that he and Toppo may be equals.

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#21 Posted by The_Hajduk (7306 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: There are many feats and statements which support the idea that Vegeta was stronger then Goku (at least base-to-base) going into the tournament.

First of all is the fact that the Future Trunks arc ended with Vegeta being definitively stronger. They were equals initially, but when Vegeta spends about six extra months in the Room of Spirit and Time accessing his anger, he gains on Goku who only trains for 1 day. He's probably at least 4x stronger, if Goku Black was twice as strong as Goku (he was actually a lot more) and Vegeta was twice as strong as Goku Black.

This is a decent gain, but it is ground that Goku can cover very quickly. We've seen him increase his strength by upwards of 10x in only a short period before. This is why Vegeta doesn't stop grinding every day, even during the period of time where Goku gets rusty from being busy with farmwork for awhile. That is an advantage Vegeta has over Goku is that he never slacks off or lets anything get in the way of his training. Even when Bra was about to be born and staying with Bulma was his priority, he still spent all day training. His training room is luckily right in his house.

Feats and statements

We can actually compare their feats where Vegeta is able to shatter the Room of Spirit and Time in base form, while Goku needs full power Blue to shatter Hit's time-space dimension.

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Then before the ToP, Vegeta gains another six months of grinding in the ROSAT, just to ensure his power was at peak condition.

By all logic Vegeta should have a substantial gain on Goku by this point. He was quantifiably above Goku in the previous arc, and nothing happened to indicate Goku ever closed that gap or got a ton stronger. The only time it comes up, Vegeta actually claims that he is still the strongest saiyan, and after witnessing Kale walk through Goku Blue, Vegeta still claims he is the strongest saiyan. He then overpowers Toppo who has multiple statements of being equal to Goku, possibly even Kaioken Goku. Vegeta was overall fighting Toppo very casually, and even when Toppo gained momentum by exploiting Vegeta's distraction, Vegeta easily escaped Toppo's greatest finishing move.

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There are still more statements which imply Vegeta's hidden power. He meets Hit at the Tournament and states very confidently that he is going to get revenge. The dub spices up the dialogue but in the sub he said this very straightforward. He then charges at Hit, in just his Super Saiyan form. This is after he saw Hit fight Goku twice and saw Hit fight Dyspo. He knew exactly how strong Hit was.

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Does this mean that Vegeta's Super Saiyan form is relative to Goku's Super Saiyan God form? If Goku went red god to be relative to Hit and Dyspo while Vegeta merely goes Super Saiyan.

You might say Vegeta was being arrogant, there's no way his Super Saiyan form can be relative to Goku's Super Saiyan God. OK, but what about Anilaza? The same thing happened where Goku went Super Saiyan God for an enemy which Vegeta only deemed Super Saiyan 1 necessary. Vegeta is relative to Goku in performance in this fight and actually recovers from Anilaza's hits much faster, and even anticipates a strike that Goku doesn't dodge and has time to warn him. Basically God Goku took some real damage from Anilaza, he basically had the wind knocked out of him, whereas SSJ Vegeta wasn't effected and recovered immediately.

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Finally is his performance against Jiren. Yes there is a bit where Jiren no-sells Vegeta with his barrier. Jiren's barrier is quite a strong technique actually, and those attacks are hardly Vegeta's heaviest punches. You are underselling Vegeta's ability to read Jiren's fighting style and overwhelm him for 1 minute. Vegeta landed multiple blows that hurt Jiren, and Jiren tried tagging Vegeta but was outmaneuvered. Jiren was using less power then he used against Ultra Instinct 1, but by that point he had powered up for Vegeta since fighting Kaioken x20 Goku originally.

Show me base Blue Goku trading with Jiren in H2H like that. You can't because all base Blue Goku did was run away and trick Jiren. A lot of people even argue that Goku was actually using his Kaioken x20 because he said "Full Powah!", and that is just to run away from Jiren.

And the Final Flash obviously surpassed all of Goku's techniques by leaps and bounds. If it surpassed Goku's Spirit Bomb, then all of Goku's normal attacks are fodder to Vegeta's Final Flash. This means that Vegeta obviously has way higher ki reserves to call from.

Good fighting but Vegeta showed stronger H2H. Vegeta also seemed to have Jiren's number stylistically, that's just the way they matched up.

SUMMARIZED POINTS

  • Vegeta had a lead on Goku after FT arc and Goku never actually had an opportunity to catch up.
  • Statements during the ToP that Vegeta is the top saiyan.
  • Multiple statements of Toppo = Goku Blue Kaioken. Vegeta then overpowers Toppo, beats his best technique, and does not use his full power.
  • Vegeta thinks he can beat Hit for sure with SSJ1.
  • Multiple instances of SSJ1 Vegeta being relative or stronger then SSJGod Goku.
  • Vegeta accomplishes Blue Goku's best feat in his base form.
  • Vegeta lands hits on Jiren, dodges Jiren's counters, and overwhelms Jiren while Kaioken x20 got gorilla'd by Jiren with less power.
  • Vegeta does better then Goku against multiple opponents (Black, Toppo, Jiren). Goku only does better then Vegeta against Hit.
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#22 Posted by jashro44 (55203 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_hajduk: There are some things there I disagree but I can agree with the main point. I still don't nessasarily think Vegeta really got measurably stronger from the goku black arc. Like I wouldn't say the fact that Toppo fought vegeta in his ssj blue form puts him above goku black because of that.

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#23 Posted by i_like_swords (26359 posts) - - Show Bio

Toppo obliterates.

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#24 Posted by The_Hajduk (7306 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@the_hajduk: There are some things there I disagree but I can agree with the main point. I still don't nessasarily think Vegeta really got measurably stronger from the goku black arc. Like I wouldn't say the fact that Toppo fought vegeta in his ssj blue form puts him above goku black because of that.

Yeah I got kinda off topic. I wasn't arguing Toppo vs Black, but just that Vegeta was stronger then Goku going into the tournament.

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#25 Posted by Lord_Titan_ (2912 posts) - - Show Bio

@vader3 said:

Toppo because of destruction

OP says base toppo, he probably will most likely lose

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#26 Edited by Eeef (2198 posts) - - Show Bio

Not seeing how Black avoids being hakai'd by Toppo.

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#27 Posted by Trndo (1119 posts) - - Show Bio

Base Toppo still one shots. Whoever thinks that Goku Black is stronger clearly doesnt pay attention. Goku was taggin Merged Zamasu in Blue but some how regular goku black can beat someone who didnt take damage by goku in kakoken after the black arc lmao. And with would be dumb through a story point of view if there still weaker then goku black in the next arc lol. I bet some of u guys still believe namek freiza can beat krillin lol

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#28 Posted by GentlemanTopHat (1121 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't Black supposedly kill everyone in the other universes before going to universe 7 wouldn't that mean he already killed a version of base Toppo

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#29 Posted by deactivated-5d07416730d08 (2261 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by HitTheAssasin (8766 posts) - - Show Bio

Black would likely win in a good fight

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#31 Posted by noobsnowman (3758 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump. Black wins extremely easily if this is base Toppo.

@jashro44: I'll gladly take the mantle and represent Black against GoD Toppo, if you're down for a debate. Though I personally think it can go either way.

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#32 Posted by jashro44 (55203 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump. Black wins extremely easily if this is base Toppo.

@jashro44: I'll gladly take the mantle and represent Black against GoD Toppo, if you're down for a debate. Though I personally think it can go either way.

I don't think goku black can bypass Toppo's hakai energy. Goku Black might be stronger than 17 and Frieza but I don't think its to the point where he can overpower Toppo like Vegeta did.

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Even if Goku Black has the power advantage he has to use a lot more energy to overpower Toppo's attacks because if he slips up once Toppo's energy of destruction will erase him from existence. His clones aren't a threat to Toppo like they were to goku and vegeta because Toppo can just bulldoze through them wearing his hakai armor, those clones will be erased from existence and Toppo will take no damage.

For Black to win against God Toppo he has to be exponentially stronger. His best feat is toying with goku and vegeta using clones, whereas Toppo bulldozing through frieza and 17 is on a similar level. He also was one of the first characters to break 17's barrier which stood up to Aniraza who was beam struggling with the most powerful characters universe 7 had to offer. I don't see goku black being able to bust 17's barrier.

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#33 Posted by Supermanthor (22700 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Edited by noobsnowman (3758 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I initially thought Black would win, but after some consideration, Toppo's hakai barrier will at the very least pose a problem. However:

I don't think goku black can bypass Toppo's hakai energy. Goku Black might be stronger than 17 and Frieza but I don't think its to the point where he can overpower Toppo like Vegeta did.

Toppo's barrier only easily countered 17's blasts and a small test beam from Golden Frieza. As you mentioned, Goku Black is superior to 17 and Frieza but I think the gap is probably bigger than you may think. In terms of raw power, a single swing of his scythe tore a completely new dimension of at least raw power without needing to hit an opponent, which in my view is a better showing of power than Toppo altering the World of Void with his hakai.

I don't think Black can overpower Toppo's barrier like the enraged Vegeta did, but I do think Black at least can pressure Toppo and give him a hard time.

Even if Goku Black has the power advantage he has to use a lot more energy to overpower Toppo's attacks because if he slips up once Toppo's energy of destruction will erase him from existence.

Toppo's Energy of destruction isn't really a threat in my view because it can easily be dodged because it travels much slower than an average ki blast. Not to mention, it could be easily intercepted when charging, Frieza neutralised it with a rock and Vegeta kicked it out of the way. Considering his amateur understanding of Destruction, it is safe to say that he does not know the actual Destruction technique that the GoDs know.

Further, there is evidence that destruction is counter-able by raw power. Vegeta, Frieza and Goku all demonstrated that the raw power to erase someone from existence can be resisted through exerting their power, with the first two being able to overpower it completely. So even if Toppo lands a lucky hit on Black, which I doubt he would, Black would adapt to it, improvise and gain significantly stronger from the experience.

His clones aren't a threat to Toppo like they were to goku and vegeta because Toppo can just bulldoze through them wearing his hakai armor, those clones will be erased

That is if Toppo can tag them, we seen that Black could easily command them to move and attack if needed, and each one of them are capable of dealing damage. But Black didn't need to do that against Goku and Vegeta, they literally stood still and regenerated more clones while Goku and Vegeta expended their energy. Against Toppo, then yes Black would need to be very resourceful with his clones to stand a chance.

Even if Toppo succeeds in erasing their clones, more clones would be generated from the raw power precipitating from the rift. Toppo could destroy the portal, but Black could simply create a new one by swinging his scythe.

He also was one of the first characters to break 17's barrier which stood up to Aniraza who was beam struggling with the most powerful characters universe 7 had to offer.

For a very short period of time, and Anilaza was clearly pushing him back and would have eliminated him if not for 18.

I don't see goku black being able to bust 17's barrier.

If Goku Black could rip open new dimensions with no effort, breaking a mere barrier shouldn't be too difficult for him.

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#35 Posted by Shintoki (767 posts) - - Show Bio

>trying to make sense out of super scaling. good luck

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#36 Posted by MainJP (7554 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, I’ll go with Black in a good fight.

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#37 Posted by jashro44 (55203 posts) - - Show Bio

@noobsnowman:

Toppo's barrier only easily countered 17's blasts and a small test beam from Golden Frieza. As you mentioned, Goku Black is superior to 17 and Frieza but I think the gap is probably bigger than you may think. In terms of raw power, a single swing of his scythe tore a completely new dimension of at least raw power without needing to hit an opponent, which in my view is a better showing of power than Toppo altering the World of Void with his hakai.

I don't really think stuff like ripping holes in dimensions can be quantified. We've been seeing characters like super buu and gotenks ripping holes in dimensions and there not really powerful compared to Toppo. Unless we are saying the space in the hyperbolic time chamber is harder to rip through than space in the regular world but I don't think there is any proof to support that.

I don't think Black can overpower Toppo's barrier like the enraged Vegeta did, but I do think Black at least can pressure Toppo and give him a hard time.

Well if he can't overpower the barrier like Vegeta did he will be erased. Its not just KI blasts that get erased but physical objects as well. If black can't properly shield himself from Toppo's energy he is going to get erased just touching him.

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Toppo's Energy of destruction isn't really a threat in my view because it can easily be dodged because it travels much slower than an average ki blast. Not to mention, it could be easily intercepted when charging, Frieza neutralised it with a rock and Vegeta kicked it out of the way. Considering his amateur understanding of Destruction, it is safe to say that he does not know the actual Destruction technique that the GoDs know.

Vegeta kicking it has to do with him being stronger. Regardless its not hard for Toppo to create an opening with his justice flash which is a rapid fire technique that can be reangled.

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Further, there is evidence that destruction is counter-able by raw power. Vegeta, Frieza and Goku all demonstrated that the raw power to erase someone from existence can be resisted through exerting their power, with the first two being able to overpower it completely. So even if Toppo lands a lucky hit on Black, which I doubt he would, Black would adapt to it, improvise and gain significantly stronger from the experience.

I said this. But black would exhaust energy trying to overpower Toppo's destruction energy. Frieza was out of breath from countering the little bit of destruction.

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That is if Toppo can tag them, we seen that Black could easily command them to move and attack if needed, and each one of them are capable of dealing damage. But Black didn't need to do that against Goku and Vegeta, they literally stood still and regenerated more clones while Goku and Vegeta expended their energy.

Even if Toppo succeeds in erasing their clones, more clones would be generated from the raw power precipitating from the rift. Toppo could destroy the portal, but Black could simply create a new one by swinging his scythe.

He doesn't need to tag them. This isn't the tournament of power. If they touch him they will be erased. I don't recall the clones being hard to tag.

For a very short period of time, and Anilaza was clearly pushing him back and would have eliminated him if not for 18.

I actually forgot about that scene. I was talking about the scene where he swam through his death ball that was pushing back goku, vegeta, frieza, and gohan.

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If Goku Black could rip open new dimensions, breaking a mere barrier shouldn't be too difficult for him.

Aniraza was doing the same thing. Piccolo even said he was bending space with his sheer power

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#38 Posted by Standardized (1502 posts) - - Show Bio

Base toppo loses after a long fight.

God Toppo would blitz and hakai.

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#39 Edited by noobsnowman (3758 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

I don't really think stuff like ripping holes in dimensions can be quantified. We've been seeing characters like super buu and gotenks ripping holes in dimensions and there not really powerful compared to Toppo. Unless we are saying the space in the hyperbolic time chamber is harder to rip through than space in the regular world but I don't think there is any proof to support that.

That isn't even remotely comparable. Buu and Gotenks only ripped a tiny hole between 2 existing dimensions and even then it could only last for a few seconds.

The only comparable feats we have is Vegeta completely destroying the HTC with his raw power and Goku ripping Hit's pocket dimension. But even then, it took them channeling their full Blue power to perform their feats, while Goku Black not only tore a completely unknown dimension that contained raw power, but did it with no effort - which goes to show that Black's full power is beyond what we have been shown.

So I do think such feats are quantifiable. Ripping a hole between 2 existing and known dimensions (eg. Earth/HTC and Earth/Hit's pocket dimension) is not as good of a feat as ripping a hole into a completely unknown dimension from right within Earth itself. Goku Black's feats completely surpass his competition. Even though I agree his competition don't quite stack up to Toppo either, Black's feat is at least on Toppo's caliber, and in my view, slightly more impressive.

Well if he can't overpower the barrier like Vegeta did he will be erased. Its not just KI blasts that get erased but physical objects as well. If black can't properly shield himself from Toppo's energy he is going to get erased just touching him.

17, Frieza and Vegeta all touched his barrier enhanced fists. I don't see them getting erased.

Vegeta kicking it has to do with him being stronger.

And what about Frieza intercepting it by throwing a rock? Frieza threw a rock and the hakai erased it instead. Beerus explicitly said that the attack takes time to charge, and Frieza exploited just that.

And what about it travelling very slowly so if we look at it practically, it won't ever hit Black? Frieza literally stood still for a good while and deliberately allowed it to hit him - and thats the only time we ever saw Toppo's Energy of Destruction tag an opponent.

Regardless its not hard for Toppo to create an opening with his justice flash which is a rapid fire technique that can be reangled.

If he manages to tag Black with it, maybe, but as shown from Android 17 and Vegeta, if Black manages to block it then there will be no opening for Toppo to exploit. Even before being angry and powered up, Vegeta proved to be able to disengage from the relentless assault. I see Black being able to do the same.

Worst case scenario if Toppo tags him with it head on, Black can use Instant Transmission to get out of harm's way when Toppo were to attempt to capitalise on the opening.

I said this. But black would exhaust energy trying to overpower Toppo's destruction energy. Frieza was out of breath from countering the little bit of destruction.

Black tanked a Galick Gun, a severe beating from Vegeta, a point blank Ki enhanced punch, looked completely battered, and still remained capable of fighting at full strength, and then adapting right after that. He wasn't even panting - let alone heavily, through all of that. Black has superior durability compared to Goku and Vegeta.

It takes more than just exhausting Black to defeat him.

He doesn't need to tag them. This isn't the tournament of power. If they touch him they will be erased. I don't recall the clones being hard to tag.

See above. I didn't see even Final Form Frieza being erased by being touched.

Again, even if they were destroyed, Black can still regenerate more clones from power precipitating from the rift. Going past the clones isn't as easy as ridding the first wave of them.

I actually forgot about that scene. I was talking about the scene where he swam through his death ball that was pushing back goku, vegeta, frieza, and gohan.

17 is not a very consistent character overall. He has some very low showings and some impressive showings. However, I don't see him being able to consistently perform feats like that or putting his barrier of hope against Jiren, for example. Those were only his small moments of greatness outside of his other showings of being dominated by the same foe (eg. Anilaza, Jiren).

Aniraza was doing the same thing. Piccolo even said he was bending space with his sheer power

Bending space =/= tearing a hole through space. It's a different way of manipulating dimensions.

EDIT: I also want to add that Goku Black is far smarter and resourceful of a fighter compared to Toppo. When Toppo was pressured, he resorted to spamming hakai mindlessly, which is unlike his base form self when he would analyse the situation and adapt accordingly. In comparison, Black was able to analyse the source of Vegeta's strength and used the same source to permanently enhance his abilities - and at no point did Black ever lose his composure. Adding Black's ability to imprint power from battle experience. and it will sincerely play to Black's advantage in the event of a stalemate or if Toppo fail to overwhelm Black quickly.

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#40 Posted by jashro44 (55203 posts) - - Show Bio

@noobsnowman:

That isn't even remotely comparable. Buu and Gotenks only ripped a tiny hole between 2 existing dimensions and even then it could only last for a few seconds.

Copy vegeta in his base form also stomped ssj 3 gotenks.

The only comparable feats we have is Vegeta completely destroying the HTC with his raw power and Goku ripping Hit's pocket dimension. But even then, it took them channeling their full Blue power to perform their feats, while Goku Black not only tore a completely unknown dimension that contained raw power, but did it with no effort - which goes to show that Black's full power is beyond what we have been shown.

Again I don't know how your measuring these feats. Ripping through dimensions is pretty common in anime and there nebulous feats.

So I do think such feats are quantifiable. Ripping a hole between 2 existing and known dimensions (eg. Earth/HTC and Earth/Hit's pocket dimension) is not as good of a feat as ripping a hole into a completely unknown dimension from right within Earth itself. Goku Black's feats completely surpass his competition. Even though I agree his competition don't quite stack up to Toppo either, Black's feat is at least on Toppo's caliber, and in my view, slightly more impressive.

This sounds very opinionated. Why is ripping a hole between 2 known dimensions more impressive than a hole between an unknown dimension? Is there some reason to assume that unknown dimension is further away?

17, Frieza and Vegeta all touched his barrier enhanced fists. I don't see them getting erased.

That was during the ToP where killing an enemy means your disqualified. Toppo probably suppressed his destruction so he could punch them without dying.

And what about Frieza intercepting it by throwing a rock? Frieza threw a rock and the hakai erased it instead. Beerus explicitly said that the attack takes time to charge, and Frieza exploited just that.

Are we assuming there fighting in the world of void? Where is Goku Black getting rocks to throw at Toppo's energy? There going to be flying around.

And what about it travelling very slowly so if we look at it practically, it won't ever hit Black? Frieza literally stood still for a good while and deliberately allowed it to hit him - and thats the only time we ever saw Toppo's Energy of Destruction tag an opponent.

Goku black will get tagged eventually. The longer the fight drags out the more it favors Toppo. He's the one who can't get damaged. Toppo's hakai is also not as slow as your making it out to be. He was able to create a ball of hakai energy after Vegeta used his final flash.

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If he manages to tag Black with it, maybe, but as shown from Android 17 and Vegeta, if Black manages to block it then there will be no opening for Toppo to exploit. Even before being angry and powered up, Vegeta proved to be able to disengage from the relentless assault. I see Black being able to do the same.

If Toppo wanted to kill Vegeta he could have done it. If that KI blast had been destruction Vegeta would have been erased.

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Worst case scenario if Toppo tags him with it head on, Black can use Instant Transmission to get out of harm's way when Toppo were to attempt to capitalise on the opening.

Instant transmission while being bombarded with KI blasts? I don't see that working out well.

Black tanked a Galick Gun, a severe beating from Vegeta, a point blank Ki enhanced punch, looked completely battered, and still remained capable of fighting at full strength, and then adapting right after that. He wasn't even panting - let alone heavily, through all of that. Black has superior durability compared to Goku and Vegeta.

That's because those people didn't exhaust black. And you can't compare those attacks to destruction.

It takes more than just exhausting Black to defeat him.

We never saw black tire out because he kept evolving. But since its Goku's body we know his stamina has its limits since Goku' stamina has limits. His KI isn't infinite like the androids.

See above. I didn't see even Final Form Frieza being erased by being touched.

Again, even if they were destroyed, Black can still regenerate more clones from power precipitating from the rift. Going past the clones isn't as easy as ridding the first wave of them.

What I am saying is Toppo can just bulldoze through the clones and hit black directly. The clones wont provide cover unlike they did with Goku and Vegeta.

17 is not a very consistent character overall. He has some very low showings and some impressive showings. However, I don't see him being able to consistently perform feats like that or putting his barrier of hope against Jiren, for example. Those were only his small moments of greatness outside of his other showings of being dominated by the same foe (eg. Anilaza, Jiren).

17's barrier was pretty conisstent from what I remember. I don't recall his barrier protecting him from Jiren. I remember Jiren breaking like 20 barriers.

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Bending space =/= tearing a hole through space. It's a different way of manipulating dimensions.

I think your focusing to much on the terminology. His fists were creating holes in space and he was launching those punches through portals. I also don't see Goku black beam struggling with gohan, golden frieza, goku, and vegeta.

EDIT: I also want to add that Goku Black is far smarter and resourceful of a fighter compared to Toppo. When Toppo was pressured, he resorted to spamming hakai mindlessly, which is unlike his base form self when he would analyse the situation and adapt accordingly. In comparison, Black was able to analyse the source of Vegeta's strength and used the same source to permanently enhance his abilities - and at no point did Black ever lose his composure. Adding Black's ability to imprint power from battle experience. and it will sincerely play to Black's advantage in the event of a stalemate or if Toppo fail to overwhelm Black quickly.

Toppo when he first unlocked his God powers was arrogant because he was a literal God. Now that he's been defeated I picture him repeating the same behavior where he is fighting mindlessly.

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#41 Posted by mevbi (698 posts) - - Show Bio

Base toppo gets stomped, God of destruction wins

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#42 Posted by Etherious (361 posts) - - Show Bio

Base Toppo mid-diff.

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#43 Edited by noobsnowman (3758 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44:

Copy vegeta in his base form also stomped ssj 3 gotenks.

The point is what Gotenks performed clearly does not match what Super Goku/Vegeta has performed.

Again I don't know how your measuring these feats. Ripping through dimensions is pretty common in anime and there nebulous feats.

I don't recall dimension warping feats to exist in Z at all. The first dimension warping feat we see is Hit in U6 Arc, and the first dimension busting feat we see is Vegeta training in the HTC (Time Ring does not count because its a godly piece of material). So no, its definitely not common in the anime.

I measure the feats because Black's showing did more than tear through dimensions. Because within the space contained raw power that literally corrupted the space with Black's raw energy, that contained so much power that not only did it spawn endless clones, but prevented anyone outside of Black to perform any teleportation feats. Goku admitted himself that Black's raw power interfered with his ki concentration, thus he could not perform Instant Transmission while being near Black. Not to mention, he pulled it off with zero effort, while in comparison Blue Goku/Vegeta had to channel their full power to pull off their feats.

In other words, Black corrupted the space with his own power in addition to tearing dimensions, the former which is replicated by Toppo to a degree but only after hitting Frieza with destruction, while Black didn't have to hit an opponent to pull that feat off.

That was during the ToP where killing an enemy means your disqualified. Toppo probably suppressed his destruction so he could punch them without dying.

Belmod explicitly said that you can destroy someone without needing to kill. When Toppo got desperate, he fired those destruction energy at Vegeta that erased debris on contact, all those that obviously missed.

Are we assuming there fighting in the world of void? Where is Goku Black getting rocks to throw at Toppo's energy? There going to be flying around.

The point is, I don't understand why you are placing so much stock on an attack that 1. takes so slow to charge and 2. travels much slower than a beam blast to argue that it would have any practical effect on a highly competent fighter like Goku Black. Especially when we clearly saw that against an opponent who took Toppo seriously, that attack never actually hit.

Goku black will get tagged eventually. The longer the fight drags out the more it favors Toppo. He's the one who can't get damaged.

Actually the longer the fight goes, the more it favours Black, because Black will adapt to Toppo's power, understand that it derives from desperation and anger, and convert it to his own strength. His fight with Vegeta shows that he can gain massive spikes in power from similar sources of power, which will tip the fight in Black's favour as he continues to evolve in power.

I still am a bit confused why you continue to postulate how Black cannot harm Toppo, when the only times Toppo didn't get damaged was tanking attacks from fighters that are significantly inferior to Black himself. If Black can humiliate 2 SSBs, then he is much stronger than GF and 17, so Toppo's barrier wouldn't stop Black that easily.

Toppo's chances of winning is to defeat Black before Black gets the chance to imprint Toppo's source of strength into his own. Obviously, Toppo does have what it takes to at least take a couple of rounds off Black, but I still remain unconvinced he can do it for a majority.

Toppo's hakai is also not as slow as your making it out to be. He was able to create a ball of hakai energy after Vegeta used his final flash.

Then why was Toppo unable to tag even the likes of 17 with it? We all know that 17 was way below Toppo's league. But when 17 took him seriously, it took a cat and mouse chase followed by a point blank Justice Flash assault to defeat him, not the hakai energy.

And the fact that Vegeta was able to disengage from the blast, when the losing end of a beam struggle would typically get hit by the blast full on, demonstrates how slow the energy travels.

If Toppo wanted to kill Vegeta he could have done it. If that KI blast had been destruction Vegeta would have been erased.

Contradicted by Golden Frieza surviving the assault head on. As it stands, there is no showing that proves that a being that is at least as powerful as GF would be erased by his attacks. Let alone significantly superior fighters like Black or SSBE Vegeta.

Instant transmission while being bombarded with KI blasts? I don't see that working out well.

Toppo is not capable of firing his Energy of Destruction in conjunction with Justice Flash. I meant after he tagged Black, then fire it right after, Black can recover and teleport out of the way.

That's because those people didn't exhaust black. And you can't compare those attacks to destruction.

Destruction is merely another demonstration of raw power. What Black tanked was a demonstration of being overwhelmed by a superior showing of raw power, yet he was not exhausted. Destruction is no exoteric ability unlike Time-Skip.

We never saw black tire out because he kept evolving. But since its Goku's body we know his stamina has its limits since Goku' stamina has limits. His KI isn't infinite like the androids.

Never argued that it's infinite. But Black's durability and stamina is significantly better than Goku and Vegeta's. So the same blows that would exhaust Goku and Vegeta would not necessarily exhaust Black.

What I am saying is Toppo can just bulldoze through the clones and hit black directly. The clones wont provide cover unlike they did with Goku and Vegeta.

Goku and Vegeta tried to bulldoze through the clones too, but they only regenerated more clones. What more success is Toppo going to have here if he does not focus the portal that sourced the clones?

17's barrier was pretty conisstent from what I remember. I don't recall his barrier protecting him from Jiren. I remember Jiren breaking like 20 barriers.

17 erected a lot of barriers to protect Goku and Vegeta from Jiren's massive Energy ball, which saved the latter two from elimination. Despite having his barriers embarrassed by Jiren and even Toppo prior, as you rightfully pointed out.

And I must disagree here. Anilaza's regular ki blasts were enough to push 17 through his barrier, and a mouth wave was enough to break it completely. And then suddenly we see him push through a fully powered wave that was overpowering the combined beam 4 SSB tier fighters? Obviously something is off there.

I think your focusing to much on the terminology. His fists were creating holes in space and he was launching those punches through portals.

It's not terminology. It's a different way of manipulating space. It's basically making Super Janemba's feat canon (he bent space vs SSJ3 Goku), yet we don't argue Janemba having dimension busting feats.

I also don't see Goku black beam struggling with gohan, golden frieza, goku, and vegeta.

Not sure what's the point of this statement.

Toppo when he first unlocked his God powers was arrogant because he was a literal God. Now that he's been defeated I picture him repeating the same behavior where he is fighting mindlessly.

Toppo when unlocked was so full of his own powers and consumed by arrogance, and when he was losing he lost his composure and because extremely desperate. Surely you would think a composed fighter would have the mental edge over a mindless and arrogant fighter, no?

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#44 Posted by Eobard21 (6428 posts) - - Show Bio

Toppo stomps

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#45 Posted by deactivated-5cbc1c581817e (8 posts) - - Show Bio

Toppo definitely

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#46 Posted by jashro44 (55203 posts) - - Show Bio

@noobsnowman:

The point is what Gotenks performed clearly does not match what Super Goku/Vegeta has performed.

Maybe it doesn't but Toppo is a lot more powerful.

I don't recall dimension warping feats to exist in Z at all. The first dimension warping feat we see is Hit in U6 Arc, and the first dimension busting feat we see is Vegeta training in the HTC (Time Ring does not count because its a godly piece of material). So no, its definitely not common in the anime.

I measure the feats because Black's showing did more than tear through dimensions. Because within the space contained raw power that literally corrupted the space with Black's raw energy, that contained so much power that not only did it spawn endless clones, but prevented anyone outside of Black to perform any teleportation feats. Goku admitted himself that Black's raw power interfered with his ki concentration, thus he could not perform Instant Transmission while being near Black. Not to mention, he pulled it off with zero effort, while in comparison Blue Goku/Vegeta had to channel their full power to pull off their feats.

In other words, Black corrupted the space with his own power in addition to tearing dimensions, the former which is replicated by Toppo to a degree but only after hitting Frieza with destruction, while Black didn't have to hit an opponent to pull that feat off.

And despite black ripping a hole in the fabric of space at no point was he physically overwhelming Vegeta or Goku. He couldn't perform instant transmission while being near the dimensional rift because he couldn't locate trunks. That has nothing to do with power but instead has to do with the fact that Goku was in an area which messed with his senses. That doesn't make the feat any more or less impressive. Black also said he didn't know what that dimension was and it could have been a portal to his own "bottomless anger".

Toppo has not ever tried to rip a hole in a dimension. So why this is being used to say black is stronger I do not know.

Belmod explicitly said that you can destroy someone without needing to kill. When Toppo got desperate, he fired those destruction energy at Vegeta that erased debris on contact, all those that obviously missed.

I don't remember that. Do you have a clip or episode number?

The point is, I don't understand why you are placing so much stock on an attack that 1. takes so slow to charge and 2. travels much slower than a beam blast to argue that it would have any practical effect on a highly competent fighter like Goku Black. Especially when we clearly saw that against an opponent who took Toppo seriously, that attack never actually hit.

The attack isn't slower than a regular KI blast it just takes Toppo time to charge it. Destruction is a one shot and so far you haven't even proven black can bypass Toppo's armor let alone win.

Actually the longer the fight goes, the more it favours Black, because Black will adapt to Toppo's power, understand that it derives from desperation and anger, and convert it to his own strength. His fight with Vegeta shows that he can gain massive spikes in power from similar sources of power, which will tip the fight in Black's favour as he continues to evolve in power.

Anger is not something which is limitless. We can't just assume black will grow stronger infinitely. How do we know black's anger didn't reach its peak?

I still am a bit confused why you continue to postulate how Black cannot harm Toppo, when the only times Toppo didn't get damaged was tanking attacks from fighters that are significantly inferior to Black himself. If Black can humiliate 2 SSBs, then he is much stronger than GF and 17, so Toppo's barrier wouldn't stop Black that easily.

Because the only time he did get hurt was when fighting Vegeta who over powered Toppo. You haven't established black being stronger than Toppo. You've tried to argue black is stronger because he ripped a hole in a dimension but I don't find that convincing.You don't need to rip a hole in a dimension to be stronger than black. Black was toying with Goku and Vegeta by using clones, whereas Toppo physically dominated golden frieza and 17.

Toppo's chances of winning is to defeat Black before Black gets the chance to imprint Toppo's source of strength into his own. Obviously, Toppo does have what it takes to at least take a couple of rounds off Black, but I still remain unconvinced he can do it for a majority.

Black was able to imprint goku and vegeta's source of strength into his own because he was a sayajin and was understanding why Goku was so strong....That wont work on Toppo because Toppo isn't a sayajin. And besides Toppo became a God through anger....

Then why was Toppo unable to tag even the likes of 17 with it? We all know that 17 was way below Toppo's league. But when 17 took him seriously, it took a cat and mouse chase followed by a point blank Justice Flash assault to defeat him, not the hakai energy.

As I said he can use regular KI blasts on goku black as well to stun black.

And the fact that Vegeta was able to disengage from the blast, when the losing end of a beam struggle would typically get hit by the blast full on, demonstrates how slow the energy travels.

Toppo did the same thing to a kamehameha.

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Contradicted by Golden Frieza surviving the assault head on. As it stands, there is no showing that proves that a being that is at least as powerful as GF would be erased by his attacks. Let alone significantly superior fighters like Black or SSBE Vegeta.

Frieza barely survived it and he used up so much KI it knocked him out of his golden form. We already know you can survive energy of destruction if you output more energy than the destruction which is what Frieza did but it still did heavy damage to him.

Toppo is not capable of firing his Energy of Destruction in conjunction with Justice Flash. I meant after he tagged Black, then fire it right after, Black can recover and teleport out of the way.

Black is not shrugging off destruction. He wont be in a position to deflect energy of destruction.

Destruction is merely another demonstration of raw power. What Black tanked was a demonstration of being overwhelmed by a superior showing of raw power, yet he was not exhausted. Destruction is no exoteric ability unlike Time-Skip.

Destruction clearly is an exotic ability. We've seen it erase ghosts from existence. As black wastes his energy he is going to weaken throughout the course of the fight and be less likely to shield his body from the effects of destruction.

Never argued that it's infinite. But Black's durability and stamina is significantly better than Goku and Vegeta's. So the same blows that would exhaust Goku and Vegeta would not necessarily exhaust Black.

Stamina in dragon ball is pretty much dependent on how much of your power you put into an attack at a given moment. Black didn't tire because he spent the arc mostly fighting fighters weaker than himself.

Goku and Vegeta tried to bulldoze through the clones too, but they only regenerated more clones. What more success is Toppo going to have here if he does not focus the portal that sourced the clones?

  1. Neither goku or vegeta are anywhere near as strong as Toppo with regular ssj blue.
  2. Toppo is shielded with energy of destruction which he can use to erase the clones from existence if he chooses.

17 erected a lot of barriers to protect Goku and Vegeta from Jiren's massive Energy ball, which saved the latter two from elimination. Despite having his barriers embarrassed by Jiren and even Toppo prior, as you rightfully pointed out.

And I must disagree here. Anilaza's regular ki blasts were enough to push 17 through his barrier, and a mouth wave was enough to break it completely. And then suddenly we see him push through a fully powered wave that was overpowering the combined beam 4 SSB tier fighters? Obviously something is off there.

Maybe 17 just put more effort later or broke through his shell.

It's not terminology. It's a different way of manipulating space. It's basically making Super Janemba's feat canon (he bent space vs SSJ3 Goku), yet we don't argue Janemba having dimension busting feats.

Goku black never busted a dimension. He ripped a hole in it just like Aniraza.

Not sure what's the point of this statement.

Aniraza>Goku black. Your trying to up-play Goku black's feat of ripping a hole in space.

Toppo when unlocked was so full of his own powers and consumed by arrogance, and when he was losing he lost his composure and because extremely desperate. Surely you would think a composed fighter would have the mental edge over a mindless and arrogant fighter, no?

As I said I don't think Toppo is likely to make the same mistake again after being humbled by Vegeta. Even if he did fight that way I still see no proof goku black can hurt Toppo. Goku black is not Vegeta. Goku blacks big feat is using clones to fight goku and vegeta when they were regular ssj blue. Vegeta when he initially powered up to SSJBE (before he broke through his shell and overpowered Toppo) was portrayed as an equal to Goku using kaio-ken X20. Meanwhile a kick a kick from ssj blue Goku using the Kaio-ken-after goku was exhausted to the point his arms wouldn't work-not only stunned fused zamasu but shattered his halo.

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#47 Posted by jashro44 (55203 posts) - - Show Bio

@noobsnowman: Probably just going to agree to disagree at this point. I honestly don't view goku black as ripping a hole in a dimension as anything that can be measured.

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#48 Edited by noobsnowman (3758 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I was about to reply because those aren't bad arguments, but I understand. Either way I wanted to argue that Black is at least capable of contending with Toppo, not that he can defeat him for a majority. To answer this though.

I don't remember that. Do you have a clip or episode number?

Belmod ordered Toppo to destroy Vegeta so long as he dosen't kill him when Toppo began losing to Vegeta. Toppo followed by constantly spamming hakai on Vegeta only for it to not work (as you know)

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1:47 to 1:56

Good discussion.

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#49 Posted by jashro44 (55203 posts) - - Show Bio
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