Goku and Vegeta (Android arc) vs Future 17 and 18

Goku and Vegeta have arrive for their fight agaisnt the androids. The androids are the same androids from Trunks future. Who would win?

If Goku has the Heart Disease, the Androids still wipe the floor.

If Goku doesn't have the Disease, it is a pretty fair fight.

I shouldn't have watched TFS version so much, I have the statements mixed up. And can't tell whats real and whats not :P

It was declared by trunk that the androids of his future were much less strong than those of the saga cell, but this remains doubtful.

However, Goku and Vegeta seem much stronger than the future characters of trunk all the same (like Gohan SSJ).

Then a fit Goku (without heart problems) coupled with Vegeta win 8 times out of 10, see 9 times. The genius of his two is no longer to prove.

Androids.

Goku and Vegeta

goku and vegeta

If Goku doesn't have the heart virus, Androids win but its a very close fight. Throw in Future-Trunks and the team wins with Goku as MVP. Future Androids didn't reveal their true power to Trunks until after he returns as an Ascended Super Saiyan, but he was confident that with Goku, he and Vegeta could take Android 17 and 18 in the Present timeline (this was before he realized they were stronger than the future androids)

Androids narrowly beat Goku and Vegeta (due to Unlimited Stamina, Android Barrier, Ruthlessness) but probably can't beat a team of Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks.

Some Things to note...1. Future 17 and 18 are much weaker than the main timeline 17/18 and future trunks could defeat at least one of the androids on his own...the problem was the double team which is what killed future gohan 2. SSJ Goku and Vegeta during the android saga were arguably as strong as future trunks while being far more skilled...Goku and Vegeta could take this but only if they fight smart and split up each of the androids...also I personally believe 19+20> future 17+18...we forget the z fighters were well prepared for the androids unlike in future trunks timeline.

wait? the future androids werent as strong as the present androids? when was this said

Goku and Vegeta are probably about the same strength as them, but I think their unlimited energy may give them the edge. The only way I see Goku and Vegeta taking the majority is if Goku starts off seriously going for the kill and taking one out right away with a instant transmission Kamehameha to the face.

Goku and Vegeta in a very hard bloody battle.

Future 17 was shown to be able to beat future ssj vegeta pretty easily. (May be filler).

Current vegeta and Goku both are stronger than ssj trunks by quite a large margin, and trunks was able to defend himself to a degree against the future androids.

Tien and Kami both imply that Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta are in the same realm of power. Vegeta>Goku>Trunks, but not by much IMO.

The problem with Trunks is he says he could barely escape from when fighting a single Android, admits his Super Saiyan was basically useless against the Androids, then later says he was able to put up a fight against both of the Androids. Here's some quotes:

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4

Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…

Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P17.3

Context: Trunks is in hospital after losing to the androids.

Trunks: “You were right… The gap between me and the androids was still huge…I think I’m lucky to have returned alive…”

Chapter: 348 (DBZ 154), P6.1

Context: after Piccolo says Super Saiyan Vegeta might beat No.17 and No.18

Trunks: “I-I was able to become a Super Saiyan too…B-but, I was absolutely no match for them…They’re stupendously strong…”

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5

Context: Trunks compares No.17 and No.18 in his timeline to the ones in the present

Trunks: “They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P10.3

Context: more comparing the future androids to the present ones

Trunks: “Wh-why has history changed this much?...The an-androids’ power wasn’t on so much of a different level…And there were only 2 of them…”

Trunks is all over the place about the Androids.

Again, Trunks THOUGHT that the future Androids were weaker because they always HELD BACK and TOYED with him, as opposed to when he saw 18 get a bit serious on Vegeta and stomp him.

So no, the future Androids are just as strong as the present ones, if not STRONGER, since Gero had even more time to work on them in the future.

As for who wins? Depends...

First off: Vegeta is absolute fodder in this fight. The only use he'll serve is to be a punching bag for 18 while Goku deals with 17. The Androids will win since once 18 decides to kill Vegeta, they will jump Goku and win. And I highly doubt Goku can kill 17 before 18 kills Vegeta, due to his infinite stamina. The only way Goku can do it is to save Instant Transmission until the last moment to catch 17 off guard with a fully powered Kamehameha, but even this I doubt will kill 17.

If everyone here is their anime counterparts instead of manga, then Goku will eventually use SSJ Kaioken on 17, IT behind him, then one shot him with a Kamehameha. After that he will deal with 18. (Anime Vegeta is still fodder.)

So if we use the manga, the winners are the Androids due to useless Vegeta.

If we use the anime, then Goku is the winner (keyword Goku and not Vegeta).

I just watched The History of Trunks DBZ movie after I saw this thread lol.

Goku and Vegeta win in a very tough fight. Vegeta's cockiness will make him a weak link in this fight, but if Goku has enough time to pull off a full power Kamehameha or Spirit Bomb attack it's over for the Androids. Trunks' alternate future is saved.

@zgtfreak: Where is the proof that Gero had more time to work on them in the future?

@mike_fowler: The fact that the Z Fighters didn't go to Gero's base due to not knowing of the Androids in the original timeline, which caused him to activate them early since he had no choice.

@zgtfreak: except from what we know of the original timeline and what trunks told them, he released them earlier (I.e. 17 and 18 were the ones that originally attacked Amenbo island, not 19 and Gero) .

Long story short, the cyborgs were released on the same day, the main timeline just had them be released relatively later than in Trunks’ timeline

@mike_fowler: Except that could've been misinformation from Trunks, as he was only a baby at the time. Gero and 19 could've attacked the island and left before the Z Fighters arrived, thus making them assume it was 18 and 17 once they saw those 2 actually destroying stuff.

Regardless, I've shown that there is no reason to think that Goku's timeline Androids are weaker than Trunks's.

Goku and Vegeta seem to have more battle experience. I give the win to them.

@zgtfreak: Goku at this point couldn't use KK in SSJ, and if he tried it against 17, all he would be doing is compounding 17's stat advantage. If he did manage to pull it off, all it would is that his body would be in condition to challenge 18.

@paytience: We have little reason to assume he can't use it.

He didn't use it on Frieza most likely because he didn't need it.

He didn't use it on 19 due to his heart disease.

He didn't use it on Cell because it still wouldn't be enough, plus he wanted Gohan to fight him.

What I'm saying is that only once he fought Pikkon did he need it and wanted to use it.

I understand if you think he can't use it, but I think he is capable of doing it at least once for a single Kamehameha where it won't drain him too much to fight 18, considering 18 is weaker than 17.

@zgtfreak: so is filler counted?

because if so, vegeta serves as a punching bag for the androids while goku charges the spirit bomb and absorbs it while oneshotting the androids. gg

@zgtfreak: Saying "there is no reason to assume that he can't" isn't how it works. The burden of proof is on you to prove he can.

Pikkon is noncanon filler.

When he debuts it in the uni 6 tournament he states directly that it was too dangerous for him to use before.

@shintoki: Veg would be a punching bag to one of them by the end of it, so why would they just let Goku charge up to double team veg.

Also, spirit bombs work by attacking the negative ki in one's soul. Androids don't even use Ki, so it may in fact be a moot point.

@paytience: If we're counting the movies as canon, then Goku by absorbing the Spirit Bomb was able to oneshot Super Android 13, who previously no sold SSJ Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo's attacks.

@takenstew22: Why would we be counting the movies as canon, when they're not?..

...but I just realized he said absorbed the spirit bomb and I just wasn't paying attention. Feats of Goku absorbing the spirit bomb in canon?

@paytience: Well the anime takes place in a different continuity then the Manga. That and I don't think it was completely proven or stated that the movies are 100% non-canon.

@takenstew22: Toriyama said they aren't. The movies are different continuity. The manga and the anime are the same continuity in db and dbz with the manga being the hard canon; where they contradict, thhe manga takes precedent, and things present in the anime that are not in the manga, are noncanon/filler.

In DBS, the anime up to the Broly movie takes precedent. If they do the moro arc in anime, that will likely take precedent as well...but at least up until the end of the TOP, the anime is the hard canon of dbs.

@paytience: Good to know. I'll keep this in mind.

@paytience: Pikkon is noncanon filler.

I said anime versions, meaning filler included.

When he debuts it in the uni 6 tournament he states directly that it was too dangerous for him to use before.

I'm not using cancerous DBS to debate for Z, considering DBS is pure randomness with no consistency whatsoever. Single-handedly killed the franchise.

No offense to you (this rant I'm about to bring up is more of directed to Super zealots), but this why until the past 2 threads I haven't debated DB in years. People come in saying 'THSUUPEEEERR!! WAT ABOUT SSSUUPPEEERRR! SUPEERR SAID DIS! SUPER SAID DAT!" Super can go die and rot in Hell. It has no consistency with DB, Z, or even itself. It should be disregarded in all DB and Z debates. It's the worst piece of fiction I've ever read and watched.

Sorry about that; just had to let that out.

Anyway, yeah; by anime, I mean the original anime with fillers, which includes SSJ Kaioken Goku.

I heard the fuss about Super. Was it full of plotholes, idiotic power scaling, and the story only focusing on Goku and Vegeta and not the other important characters? I'm not even close to that point in the series yet. But if all this is true it might disappoint me aswell. Alot of people even prefer GT over it.

@takenstew22: Was it full of plotholes, idiotic power scaling, and the story only focusing on Goku and Vegeta and not the other important characters?

All of this plus more. Vegeta's development from the Buu Saga was absolutely destroyed, and he is only useful for fusion in DBS.

Alot of people even prefer GT over it.

GT was fine after the trashy Black Star DB Saga.

Goku and Vegeta in a very hard fight

@jueix: You don't have to delete your comment everytime you bump a thread.

My money is on the saiyans with high to extreme difficulty.

The androids are significantly weaker in that timeline,and in the main timeline Vegeta did put up a decent fight against 18. Goku should be close to him. It is hard to gauge future Gohan but he was able to stand up to both androids by himself with one arm for a while.

Could also go to the androids but I wanna say Goku and Vegeta take a majority

Goku drops from virus which leaves vegeta to be double teamed.

18 and 17 have arguably much better teamwork and kill instantly.

They will probably win. Goku and Vegeta at this point are very average

Goku and Vegeta in an insane diff.