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#1 Posted by Tjakrabirawa (2600 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Saiyan Saga Dbz Goku-Vegeta, Eos Sasuke-Naruto

Random encounter

No prep

In character

Win by any means

Take place in Konoha

Indestructible Planet

Round 2:

Base form Android Saga Goku-Vegeta, Adult Naruto-Sasuke

Morals off/full bloodlust on

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#2 Edited by AlexTheBoss (18490 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Naruto and Vegeta win. Goku needed help to beat Vegeta and Sasuke needed to absorb the powers of the tailed beasts to stalemate Naruto.

Round 2: Goku and Sasuke win. Naruto and Sasuke's power is irrelevant but Sasuke's hax can still help Goku.

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#3 Edited by Marc_55 (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

Round 1: Naruto and Vegeta win. Goku needed help to beat Vegeta and Sasuke needed to absorb the powers of the tailed beasts to stalemate Naruto.

Round 2: Goku and Sasuke win. Naruto and Sasuke's power is irrelevant but Sasuke's hax can still help Goku.

Naruto can hand Vegeta full Bijū cloaks to amp his stats above Goku and Sasuke. That said, their physicals feats in Namek aren't above Naruto and Sasuke's.

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#4 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18490 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55: I'm not sure if the power Naruto gives Vegeta would make a difference. If it does then Goku goes kkx20 gg.

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#5 Posted by sladerulez (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: depending on how much chakra he gives him, a tail's worth of power can amp his body and abilities by over 400%

That isn't as high as KKx20, but it's still pretty high

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#6 Edited by Marc_55 (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss said:

@marc_55: I'm not sure if the power Naruto gives Vegeta would make a difference. If it does then Goku goes kkx20 gg.

I'm sure it would, a chakra boost without a cloak was amping stats x3. Then he started giving out cloaks to tank Tepenchii and rebel the Jūbi, who can normally sway Bijū like nothing.

Later still he can give BM cloaks, amping his allies even further. He still has the option, but boosted by a much higher degree with RSM.

KKx20 would likely end it tho, I'll admit.

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#7 Edited by Gaoron (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

Aren't eos and adult the same thing?

R1: Vegeta is stronger than Goku and Naruto > Sasuke without amps so team 2 handily

R2: Goku solos if by android saga you mean Cell Games, only way Vegeta wins is if he is post-rosat and Goku is not.

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#8 Posted by Marc_55 (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

@gaoron said:

Aren't eos and adult the same thing?

Yes.

R1: Vegeta is stronger than Goku, add Sasuke hax and team rivals wins.

Goku and Sasuke vs Naruto and Vegeta, read the title again.

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#9 Posted by Gaoron (9170 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55: I know, I already changed that. Team 2 takes it even easier then.

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#10 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18490 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by sladerulez (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss: when Naruto gave his Chakra to The Allied Shinobi, Kakashi had a flash back of when he spoke to Shikaku. He said he felt four times stronger with less than a tail's worth of chakra

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#12 Edited by iUseMyCajonas (4271 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55 said:

I'm sure it would, a chakra boost without a cloak was amping stats x3

@sladerulez said:

he felt four times stronger with less than a tail's worth of chakra

There is nothing to suggest that this is a true multiplier to stats at all. It could be a flat increase, it's never buffed anyone to the levels that the Z team operates at, and Naruto used to be drastically faster in the cloak to his base when he first got it as opposed to now where it's hard to even tell he gets a speed boost that much higher than his base in the first place.

Safe to put the cloak at less than a Kaioken multiplier which has consistently been a times two boost in power regardless of how much power you have. Just say it gives regen, a slight boost, and call it a day.

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#13 Posted by Marc_55 (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

@sladerulez: @marc_55: where was the chakra multiplier stated?

Kakashi recalls it, saying he felt x3 more powerful.

There is nothing to suggest that this is a true multiplier to stats at all.

Aside from every single use and showing to date, I suppose.

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#14 Edited by iUseMyCajonas (4271 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55 said:
Aside from every single use and showing to date, I suppose.

Nah. Just because it's increasing your power does not make it a multiplier. If that was true the fight Killer B had with the Taka would not have went the way it did. Sasuke was barely keeping up with base Bee, and still could barely keep up with (the important part is he could still kept up with) Cloaked Bee. Bee would've been significantly faster than he was if it was an actual 3 times multiplier. Sasuke wouldnt've been able to even see him. There are many more points in the series that allude to this but it's a waste of time listing them all out, you know they exist as you've read the manga. Quit being silly, it's an inconsistent at best boost to stats.

We all agree chakra cloaks are cool, but don't make them something they're not.

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#15 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18490 posts) - - Show Bio

@iusemycajonas: @sladerulez: Ya but Kurama>>>>>Kakashi, so of course his chakra would multiply his strength multiple times over. But if Goku and Vegeta>>>>>>Kuruma, I don't see how he could multiply their power.

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#16 Edited by iUseMyCajonas (4271 posts) - - Show Bio

@alextheboss said:

@iusemycajonas: @sladerulez: Ya but Kurama>>>>>Kakashi, so of course his chakra would multiply his strength multiple times over. But if Goku and Vegeta>>>>>>Kuruma, I don't see how he could multiply their power.

That's essentially a simplified version of what I just said or was trying to say :P Think you tagged the wrong guy.

@marc_55 said:

I'm sure it would, a chakra boost without a cloak was amping stats x3

@sladerulez said:

he felt four times stronger with less than a tail's worth of chakra

There is nothing to suggest that this is a true multiplier to stats at all. It could be a flat increase, it's never buffed anyone to the levels that the Z team operates at, and Naruto used to be drastically faster in the cloak to his base when he first got it as opposed to now where it's hard to even tell he gets a speed boost that much higher than his base in the first place.

Safe to put the cloak at less than a Kaioken multiplier which has consistently been a times two boost in power regardless of how much power you have. Just say it gives regen, a slight boost, and call it a day.

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#18 Edited by SuperDragonfly9 (1087 posts) - - Show Bio

Naruto and Sasuke win Round 1. Goku and Vegeta stomp Round 2. Six Paths Naruto + 1,000 clones of himself + Rinnegan Sasuke VS Goku + Vegeta would be a great fight, and I see Naruto and Sasuke coming out on top. Before you all attack me the thing is Naruto and Sasuke are way more strategic than these versions of Goku and Vegeta, and neither of the Saiyans can tell which clone is the real naruto. Also Naruto has more stamina than this Goku. Goku can only use Kaio Ken a few times and his energy is depleted, meanwhile Naruto fought 10 Tails Madara, Kaguya, 10 Tails Kaguya, AND Rinnegan Saskue without running low on energy, he could maintain the form in three different fights without going back to base. He isn't losing this.

It's gonna come down to Naruto + Sasuke VS Vegeta, and the ninjas don't just sit around and wait for the enemy to charge up.

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#19 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18490 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by AlexTheBoss (18490 posts) - - Show Bio

@superdragonfly9:

Naruto and Sasuke win Round 1. Goku and Vegeta stomp Round 2.

Read the title again.

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#21 Posted by iUseMyCajonas (4271 posts) - - Show Bio

Team two mostly because of Vegeta, he already won their fight back on earth lol.

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#22 Edited by Marc_55 (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

@iusemycajonas said:
@marc_55 said:

Nah. Just because it's increasing your power does not make it a multiplier.

Aside from the version I'm specifically referring to being noted as such, I suppose.

If that was true the fight Killer B had with the Taka would not have went the way it did. Sasuke was barely keeping up with base Bee, and still could barely keep up with (the important part is he could still kept up with) Cloaked Bee.

Ignoring that Kurama > Gyūki overall, you seem to misunderstand why Bee was too much in base. It's simple, not because of his stats alone. It's because of his fighting style, which involves many acrobatic movements and multiple targets to draw the Sharingan's attention.

Bee would've been significantly faster than he was if it was an actual 3 times multiplier.

You're aware this doesn't apply to Bee at all, right? Since this boost from Kurama and Naruto =/= Gyūki's cloak.

Sasuke wouldnt've been able to even see him.

He could see base Bee just fine, so that doesn't make any sense to assume.

There are many more points in the series that allude to this but it's a waste of time listing them all out, you know they exist as you've read the manga.

Please, continue listing irrelevant examples to prove a point. Should certainly make me reconsider what the manga makes explicit for us.

Quit being silly, it's an inconsistent at best boost to stats.

Well, you'd have a point if we were even talking about the same characters.

We all agree chakra cloaks are cool,

Don't patronize me.

but don't make them something they're not.

No Caption Provided

You should tell that to Kakashi, who noted it boosted his abilities x3. He also notes the actual cloak given here is more powerful than before.

No Caption Provided

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#23 Edited by iUseMyCajonas (4271 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55 said:
No Caption Provided

You should tell that to Kakashi, who noted it boosted his abilities x3.

Ah I see. Your argument is both

1. All of the V1/V2 cloaks from the different tailed beasts give different amps to power

and

2. Since Kakashi who has horrible chakra reserves and an extremely low level of power at the time of receiving the cloak said that he felt 3 times stronger than he normally is, (which is still weaker than Kurama with Naruto as the Jin) , that Naruto's cloak in particular can buff anyone including say, Hulk, really, anyone regardless of power, to three times their own strentgh level despite being drastically stronger than the thing giving them the buff in the first place?

Interesting.

See the first one is pretty clever and I can get behind, it's a good argument to make and I'm forced to agree with it purely because of how much stronger Kurama seems to be to the other tailed beasts. So cool, Naruto's cloak is stronger than Killer B's because Killer B's obviously isn't a 3x amplifier.

The second one is where your argument falls completely apart dude. If you gave that amp to an ant I'm that ant would feel a heck of a lot stronger than a 3 times boost to his power. Not only in the scan is Kakashi unsure of the new limitations on the cloak as you can tell by him saying "I think", no where else in the series is it stated or shown to give a static three times multiplier to someone of Vegeta's calibur, heck, even someone of Naruto's calibur.

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#24 Edited by slimj87d (15680 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol, what would Naruto give Vegeta in round 2? Like a 2% power boost?

Vegeta would probably feel disappointed upon receiving any bijuu power.

Naruto's ability to heal is a better asset.

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#25 Posted by Marc_55 (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

Ah I see. Your argument is both

1. All of the V1/V2 cloaks from the different tailed beasts give different amps to power

Considering Kurama >>>> Gyuki > other Biju.....

and

2. Since Kakashi who has horrible chakra reserves

He factually doesn't.

and an extremely low level of power at the time of receiving the cloak said that he felt 3 times stronger than he normally is,

He didn't get a cloak, he got a small chakra boost. The cloak is noted to be far more powerful than the simple x3 from before.

(which is still weaker than Kurama with Naruto as the Jin)

Relevance?

that Naruto's cloak in particular can buff anyone including say, Hulk, really, anyone regardless of power, to three times their own strentgh level despite being drastically stronger than the thing giving them the buff in the first place?

No.

Interesting.

Misconstrued, more like.

See the first one is pretty clever and I can get behind, it's a good argument to make and I'm forced to agree with it purely because of how much stronger Kurama seems to be to the other tailed beasts. So cool, Naruto's cloak is stronger than Killer B's because Killer B's obviously isn't a 3x amplifier.

It's more Kurama is stronger than Gyuki.

The second one is where your argument falls completely apart dude.

We'll see.

If you gave that amp to an ant I'm that ant would feel a heck of a lot stronger than a 3 times boost to his power.

Which doesn't really matter to my original, which was that it amps stats. Nothing more, nothing less.

Not only in the scan is Kakashi unsure of the new limitations on the cloak as you can tell by him saying "I think",

That's nitpicking, there's no other reason to have it said.

no where else in the series is it stated or shown to give a static three times multiplier to someone of Vegeta's calibur, heck, even someone of Naruto's calibur.

Not really relevant, since I never implied or stated otherwise. From the beginnning I said he could amp Vegeta's stats, with Kakashi being the example of a simple chakra boost(no cloak) for x3 capabilities. I never said it was only x3, in fact I say the exact opposite. It's more later on, which only furthers the point.

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#26 Edited by iUseMyCajonas (4271 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55 said:

Ah I see. Your argument is both

1. All of the V1/V2 cloaks from the different tailed beasts give different amps to power

Considering Kurama >>>> Gyuki > other Biju.....

and

2. Since Kakashi who has horrible chakra reserves

He factually doesn't.

and an extremely low level of power at the time of receiving the cloak said that he felt 3 times stronger than he normally is,

He didn't get a cloak, he got a small chakra boost. The cloak is noted to be far more powerful than the simple x3 from before.

(which is still weaker than Kurama with Naruto as the Jin)

Relevance?

that Naruto's cloak in particular can buff anyone including say, Hulk, really, anyone regardless of power, to three times their own strentgh level despite being drastically stronger than the thing giving them the buff in the first place?

No.

Interesting.

Misconstrued, more like.

See the first one is pretty clever and I can get behind, it's a good argument to make and I'm forced to agree with it purely because of how much stronger Kurama seems to be to the other tailed beasts. So cool, Naruto's cloak is stronger than Killer B's because Killer B's obviously isn't a 3x amplifier.

It's more Kurama is stronger than Gyuki.

The second one is where your argument falls completely apart dude.

We'll see.

If you gave that amp to an ant I'm that ant would feel a heck of a lot stronger than a 3 times boost to his power.

Which doesn't really matter to my original, which was that it amps stats. Nothing more, nothing less.

Not only in the scan is Kakashi unsure of the new limitations on the cloak as you can tell by him saying "I think",

That's nitpicking, there's no other reason to have it said.

no where else in the series is it stated or shown to give a static three times multiplier to someone of Vegeta's calibur, heck, even someone of Naruto's calibur.

Not really relevant, since I never implied or stated otherwise. From the beginnning I said he could amp Vegeta's stats, with Kakashi being the example of a simple chakra boost(no cloak) for x3 capabilities. I never said it was only x3, in fact I say the exact opposite. It's more later on, which only furthers the point.

bro in this thread you stated multiple times that the cloak gives a x3 amp and now you're going back on your word agreeing with the person youve been so faithfully trying to debate with who's original statement was along the lines of: the cloak isn't giving vegeta any sort of significant amp at all.

kakashi<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<kurama

vegeta>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>kurama

this isnt that deep

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#27 Posted by mikideze (57 posts) - - Show Bio