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#51 Posted by Karkus (447 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice: Scaling the Manga to the movies is never a good idea.

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#52 Posted by cpt_nice (9840 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus: There literally is nothing else to go on and you have characters here who are movie-only, manga/anime only and both.

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#53 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18008 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus:

Perhaps I should have clarified, they aren't equal in all aspects because Gogeta should last longer than Vegito due to how the fusion's work.

Again this isn't a limitation for Vegito's physical endurance, it's just a flaw for the potara. One fusion lasting longer than the other has nothing to do with the fact that they are said to be equally matched. You seem to be trying to say the difference in timelimits evens it out but if that was the case then Gogeta would be clearly superior, and not simply equally matched.

I don't think they were taking fusion timelimits into consideration with that statement, otherwise the "neither inferior" line wouldn't make sense because they don't have the same fusion time(meaning someone's would have to be less than the others).

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#54 Posted by Karkus (447 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice: The more reliable thing to scale with is the Anime, since the movies follow the Anime canon. In the Anime, Goku could have taken Super Buu when he absorbed Piccolo.

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#55 Posted by cpt_nice (9840 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus: Based on? Also that still doesnt put him near gohans ball park.

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#56 Edited by Karkus (447 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking:

in this isn't a limitation for Vegito's physical endurance, it's just a flaw for the potara.

And this flaw of the Potara impacts Vegito's duration.

I don't think they were taking fusion timelimits into consideration with that statement, otherwise the "neither inferior" line wouldn't make sense because they don't have the same fusion time(meaning someone's would have to be less than the others).

Yeah, according to Ken, it's referring to the techniques themselves.

https://twitter.com/KenXyro/status/1070925210445012993:

So it's probably talking about in general.

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#57 Posted by Karkus (447 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice: The movies contain Anime-Only characters such as Pikon. In the movies, Goku did better against Hiradrugen than Gohan did.

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#58 Posted by WorldofRuin6 (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Buuhan mid diff.

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#59 Posted by cpt_nice (9840 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus: By your logic you can't compare two movies either.

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#60 Posted by Karkus (447 posts) - - Show Bio

@cpt_nice: You can, unless there's a reason not to. Why do you think the movies follow Manga canon and not Anime canon?

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#61 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18008 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus said:

@thewatcherking:

in this isn't a limitation for Vegito's physical endurance, it's just a flaw for the potara.

And this flaw of the Potara impacts Vegito's duration.

I don't think they were taking fusion timelimits into consideration with that statement, otherwise the "neither inferior" line wouldn't make sense because they don't have the same fusion time(meaning someone's would have to be less than the others).

Yeah, according to Ken, it's referring to the techniques themselves.

https://twitter.com/KenXyro/status/1070925210445012993:

So it's probably talking about in general.

Irrelevant to their power levels.

I doubt it's talking about the techniques, since Herms says otherwise, and if they had different timelimits and power levels they can't be equally matched or neither inferior. If they are in general equal then I see no reason to think their stats are different, since rarely in DB are two characters with the same level of power different in certain stats(it happens but again rarely).

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#62 Edited by Karkus (447 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking said:
@karkus said:

@thewatcherking:

in this isn't a limitation for Vegito's physical endurance, it's just a flaw for the potara.

And this flaw of the Potara impacts Vegito's duration.

I don't think they were taking fusion timelimits into consideration with that statement, otherwise the "neither inferior" line wouldn't make sense because they don't have the same fusion time(meaning someone's would have to be less than the others).

Yeah, according to Ken, it's referring to the techniques themselves.

https://twitter.com/KenXyro/status/1070925210445012993:

So it's probably talking about in general.

Irrelevant to their power levels.

I doubt it's talking about the techniques, since Herms says otherwise, and if they had different timelimits and power levels they can't be equally matched or neither inferior. If they are in general equal then I see no reason to think their stats are different, since rarely in DB are two characters with the same level of power different in certain stats(it happens but again rarely).

It isn't talking about their power levels. just their effectiveness/dependability. Herms and Ken are equally reliable. They can be generally on par if Fusion Dance doesn't defuse as quick, but not the same power, while Potara defuses quicker, but has more power.

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#63 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18008 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus

It isn't talking about their powerful levels. just their effectiveness/dependability.

They literally can't be equally effective and neither inferior to each other with radically different power levels and timelimits. And according to Herms, who you admit is just as reliable as ken, they were talking about power.

They can be generally on par if Fusion Dance doesn't defuse as quick, but not the same power, while Potara defuses quicker, but has more power.

There is no evidence to support your headcanon, no translation says that they are on par with each other but the potara is stronger. They're equal...thus the "equally matched" and "neither inferior" line.

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#64 Posted by noobsnowman (3595 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: Based on what does "equally good trump cards" refer to them being equally powerful?

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#65 Posted by Karkus (447 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking:

They literally can't be equally effective and neither inferior to each other with radically different power levels and timelimits.

They can, if one has radically better power levels, and one has a radically better time limit.

And according to Herms, who you admit is just as reliable as ken, they were talking about power.

Where did he say this?

There is no evidence to support your headcanon, no translation says that they are on par with each other but the potara is stronger.

I am saying they are never compared power-wise, which is supported by Ken. Saying the Potara is stronger is supported by the Daizenshuu.

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#66 Posted by DemonGod_PABLO (1386 posts) - - Show Bio

Why do people make dragonball way more complicated than it is lol?

OT: Janemba solos

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#67 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18008 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: Based on what does "equally good trump cards" refer to them being equally powerful?

Terms like "equally good" and "neither is inferior" obviously means one is vastly superior to the other right?

@karkus said:

@thewatcherking:

They literally can't be equally effective and neither inferior to each other with radically different power levels and timelimits.

They can, if one has radically better power levels, and one has a radically better time limit.

And according to Herms, who you admit is just as reliable as ken, they were talking about power.

Where did he say this?

There is no evidence to support your headcanon, no translation says that they are on par with each other but the potara is stronger.

I am saying they are never compared power-wise, which is supported by Ken. Saying the Potara is stronger is supported by the Daizenshuu.

The daizenshuu isn't written by Akira Toriyama iirc, anyway with this statement what was established previously is obviously being retconned and no longer relevant.

They can, if one has radically better power levels, and one has a radically better time limit.

This is still headcanon, I have no idea why it's so hard to accept that they're equal. But think what you will.

Where did he say this?

I already shown where.

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#68 Posted by Karkus (447 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking:

The daizenshuu isn't written by Akira Toriyama iirc

He didn't, but approves of it and says it's a good source, more than that issue of jump.

anyway with this statement what was established previously is obviously being retconned

No, it isn't.

I have no idea why it's so hard to accept that they're equal.

If it wasn't for one of the most reliable DB translators saying the text doesn't talk about power, I would.

I already shown where.

Have a timestamp in that video that says that?

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#69 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18008 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus said:

@thewatcherking:

The daizenshuu isn't written by Akira Toriyama iirc

He didn't, but approves of it and says it's a good source, more than that issue of jump.

anyway with this statement what was established previously is obviously being retconned

No, it isn't.

I have no idea why it's so hard to accept that they're equal.

If it wasn't for one of the most reliable DB translators saying the text doesn't talk about power, I would.

I already shown where.

Have a timestamp in that video that says that?

That doesn't make it anymore "canon" than the jump article. It seems more to me that you don't want to believe Gogeta is Vegito's equal than anything, making this discussion pointless.

If it wasn't for one of the most reliable DB translators saying the text doesn't talk about power, I would.

Herms is by your own words, just as reliable.

Have a timestamp in that video that says that?

1:13,3:18, 7:38.

Everything I need to say has been said, if you don't accept it then that's on you.

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#70 Posted by Karkus (447 posts) - - Show Bio

@karkus said:

@thewatcherking:

The daizenshuu isn't written by Akira Toriyama iirc

He didn't, but approves of it and says it's a good source, more than that issue of jump.

anyway with this statement what was established previously is obviously being retconned

No, it isn't.

I have no idea why it's so hard to accept that they're equal.

If it wasn't for one of the most reliable DB translators saying the text doesn't talk about power, I would.

I already shown where.

Have a timestamp in that video that says that?

That doesn't make it anymore "canon" than the jump article. It seems more to me that you don't want to believe Gogeta is Vegito's equal than anything, making this discussion pointless.

If it wasn't for one of the most reliable DB translators saying the text doesn't talk about power, I would.

Herms is by your own words, just as reliable.

Have a timestamp in that video that says that?

1:13,3:18, 7:38.

Everything I need to say has been said, if you don't accept it then that's on you.

Since it seems you are set on thinking they are equal, regardless of the evidence, then this discussion is pointless.

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#71 Posted by Scotchbear (2015 posts) - - Show Bio

@noobsnowman: ssj gogeta losing? You be high

Ssj gogeta would curbstomp with utter ease

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#72 Edited by noobsnowman (3595 posts) - - Show Bio
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#73 Edited by noobsnowman (3595 posts) - - Show Bio

@scotchbear: Actually, its the other way round. He gets stomped with utter ease.

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#74 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18008 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: Sure, but based on what does those terms refer to power?

What else would they be referring to? How good looking they are?

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#75 Edited by noobsnowman (3595 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: The point is we cannot deduce anything from such a vague scan thus it dosen't disprove the Potara's clear superiority over the Dance in terms of power. "Equally good" can refer to a billion things.

Unless, of course, you have some other evidence or contextual analysis which shows that it likely refers to power, then I'm all ears.

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#76 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18008 posts) - - Show Bio
@noobsnowman said:

@thewatcherking: The point is we cannot deduce anything from such a vague scan thus it dosen't disprove the Potara's clear superiority over the Dance in terms of power. "Equally good" can refer to a billion things.

Unless, of course, you have some other evidence or contextual analysis which shows that it likely refers to power, then I'm all ears.

Come on, you're being ridiculous. There is nothing vague about two fusions which are only used in battle as absolutely last resorts both being said to be equally matched and that neither is inferior. They only could be referring to their usefulness in battle and/or their power.

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#78 Edited by noobsnowman (3595 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: There is nothing ridiculous with asking you to back your claim that they're referring to power with evidence my friend, otherwise you're just making empty assumptions.

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#79 Posted by Aristeaus (651 posts) - - Show Bio

Janemba was a universal reality warper. So much so that Merged Zamasu ( Manga ) used exact copies of his abilities ( Block teleportation stuffs ).

Super Buu was beatable without Fusion, where as Janemba was certainly not, though Vegito was playing around with him.

This is a tough one. At the end of the day though, I gotta go with Janemba. He had the most impressive feats of anyone here. Really close though.

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#80 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18008 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: There is nothing ridiculous with asking you to back your claim that they're referring to power with evidence my friend, otherwise you're just making empty assumptions.

If you're asking for me for an exact quote of them saying "Gogeta is equal to Vegito in power" then I don't have it. However it is clearly implying that, going by your logic Elder Kai never said the potara is stronger than the dance only that it is better. That could refer to a billion different things according to you.

It doesn't matter to me if you don't accept the statement, but your reason for doing so doesn't make sense imo.

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#81 Edited by Scotchbear (2015 posts) - - Show Bio

@noobsnowman: l0l

Gogeta curbstomped a universal reality warped casually....

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#82 Posted by Tony_587 (48 posts) - - Show Bio

Gohan And Buu

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#83 Edited by noobsnowman (3595 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: Except the context around the Elder Kai's statement is that they need a power that is superior to Buutenks, who was depicted to be invincible at that time as he easily defeated the ace that Elder Kai intended to put Buu down (Mystic Gohan). So at least there is context in that quote to show that it refers to power.

Besides, Goku was asking whether it would make him stronger, which further explains that the Kai meant it to be superior to the Dance in power by directly answering Goku's question. Goku's excited response further supports the notion - because being just stronger isn't enough (Super Buu was already way beyond Goku's league by multitudes, let alone Buutenks), he needs a colossal increase of strength that the Potara offers compared to the Dance, and given Goku's knowledge of the Dance (he taught it to the kids), and his lack of knowledge of the Potara until the Elder Kai told him, of course he would be excited to hear about an alternate fusion that is stronger than the Dance.

On the other hand, there is no contextual analysis or any external evidence which proves that the scan refers to power, thus it remains a vague piece of material that is to be taken with a grain of salt.

@scotchbear:

Good to know, except that it won't be enough to defeat Gohan or Buu.

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#84 Posted by JuzaCloud (3342 posts) - - Show Bio

Vegito=gogeta

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#85 Posted by Myleftbuttcheeksolos (408 posts) - - Show Bio

Still stands gogeta = vegito

OT: still team 1

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#86 Posted by Karkus (447 posts) - - Show Bio

Still stands Vegito > Gogeta

OT: Still team 1

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#87 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18008 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: Except the context around the Elder Kai's statement is that they need a power that is superior to Buutenks, who was depicted to be invincible at that time as he easily defeated the ace that Elder Kai intended to put Buu down (Mystic Gohan). So at least there is context in that quote to show that it refers to power.

Besides, Goku was asking whether it would make him stronger, which further explains that the Kai meant it to be superior to the Dance in power by directly answering Goku's question. Goku's excited response further supports the notion - because being just stronger isn't enough (Super Buu was already way beyond Goku's league by multitudes, let alone Buutenks), he needs a colossal increase of strength that the Potara offers compared to the Dance, and given Goku's knowledge of the Dance (he taught it to the kids), and his lack of knowledge of the Potara until the Elder Kai told him, of course he would be excited to hear about an alternate fusion that is stronger than the Dance.

On the other hand, there is no contextual analysis or any external evidence which proves that the scan refers to power, thus it remains a vague piece of material that is to be taken with a grain of salt.

@scotchbear:

Good to know, except that it won't be enough to defeat Gohan or Buu.

I will give that on the elder kai statement but regardless you're dismissing the statement for them being equal for no valid reason. Obviously the scan wasn't referring to the fusions being equally matched in cooking skills, or in looks. The only time fusion is ever used is in emergencies where Goku and Vegeta need to get stronger to defeat someone way more powerful than they are. To say both fusions are equally matched would clearly be referring to power, and it makes no sense to think otherwise. I have no idea why you are willing to go to such lengths as to use mental gymnastics to say it could be referring to a billion different things other than power when the only use for fusion is to get more powerful.

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#88 Posted by terry2012 (9772 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

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#89 Edited by LoveEveryone (808 posts) - - Show Bio

Gohan and Boo take this. Janemba is a huge threat but Ultimate Gohan can always beat SSJ3 Goku leading it becoming a 1 vs 2. When will fanboys ever learn that Ultimate Gohan was stronger than SSJ3 Goku who = Kid Boo.

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#90 Edited by noobsnowman (3595 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking:

I will give that on the elder kai statement but regardless you're dismissing the statement for them being equal for no valid reason. Obviously the scan wasn't referring to the fusions being equally matched in cooking skills, or in looks. The only time fusion is ever used is in emergencies where Goku and Vegeta need to get stronger to defeat someone way more powerful than they are. To say both fusions are equally matched would clearly be referring to power, and it makes no sense to think otherwise. I have no idea why you are willing to go to such lengths as to use mental gymnastics to say it could be referring to a billion different things other than power when the only use for fusion is to get more powerful.

You can't really say that I'm dismissing it without a valid reason when the proof is on your response - you don't have an exact quote of context to prove that it refers to power, thus there is insufficient information to prove whether it refers to power or not. Sure, fusion is used in facing a stronger opponent, but it's only a general statement that is not in the context of the quote that compares the two fusions, while there are already other existing evidence that clearly proves that the Potara is more powerful than the Dance. The underlined shows that you're appealing to ignorance because you're unwilling to consider any alternatives while arbitrarily subscribing to what makes most sense to you without any proof. If you want to prove that it refers to power, you need more than just 'makes sense' - you need to bring evidence of absence to show that it at least suggests that the quote refers to power.

I only using a mere principle of logic, of asking for evidence to support a proposition. Its like analysing this sentence "This chicken is good". It's so easy to deduce that it means it tastes good since it's food, without considering that it can also mean it appear good, it smells good, who knows. For all we know it can mean it's big enough to be shoved up someone's ass. Without the Buutenks context, the Elder Kai quote would be equally as vague as the scan, because 'better' can also mean anything. Point is, we need context to understand the meaning of an otherwise vague sentence.