GoD Toppo vs SS Rosé Goku Black

@omarlionvision: Yea except Toppo's hakai is nowhere as masterful as Beerus'. I'm pretty sure Black can stand there and tank the hakai energy, then proceed to continue fighting at his full power.

Otherwise by your logic you should agree that Toppo stomps Jiren because Jiren has no answer to hakai.

Toppo slaughters

@noobsnowman: Vegeta only admits Goku is better when he clearly is. And if you include kaioken Vegeta was still nowhere near Goku. The only reason Goku didn't use kaioken in that arc except against fused Zamasu is because he should logically win against Black with it. This is a problem because Toei gave Goku SSB KK, it wasn't a Toriyama idea and wasn't in the manga.

Pretty sure the reason Goku never used the Kaio-ken is because he never mastered it and he was trying to not use it recklessly like against Hit.

Toppo wins this comfortably.

@jashro44: That's possible.

No offense, but are people forgetting that Goku and Vegeta surpassed Black long ago? People are thinking SSB tier, but forget that Current SSB Goku is to Black arc SSB Goku as Cell Saga SSJ1 Goku is to Namek Saga SSJ1 Goku.

Honestly, I would think Black is below Frieza considering Frieza got stronger and Black got folded by SSB Vegeta in the first place, and only was a threat to Goku, Vegeta and Trunks afterwords because they were losing their stamina and energy.

In other words, I'd go as far as to say even Toppo in his base form could handle him well without needing his god form considering he was doing fine against Vegeta in his SSB form.

TLDR Version? This is another pointless thread where people forget the power levels of certain characters and their respect tiers.

No. After losing to Vegeta black unlocked the power to create clones and was dealing with both goku and vegeta at once.

They were already severely tired IIRC and having clones that can hit hard but would be a waste of energy to attack kind of evened the odds, I am talking raw power. And Black by himself still wasn't enough to take on a healthy Vegeta or Goku

@noobsnowman: you can if you overpower them in stats, like vegta did. Black is nowhere near as powerful as toppo as he got stomped by normal blue vegetation pre tournament arc

Well their performances against Black and Zamasu respectively is enough to prove Vegeta's superiority over Goku, at least in SSB, no? Because if Goku is as powerful as Vegeta in SSB as you claimed, Goku should be bashing Zamasu in the head the instant the fight started.

The reason why Goku didn't use Kaioken in the arc is not because he will win with it but it's because he can't use it. Goku recently recovered from his Ki onset disorder and using Kaioken again would strain him to the point of even killing himself. Which is why he only used it against Fused Zamasu to escape the grip and not in actual full on combat.

Whether Goku can defeat Black with Kaioken is speculative, and it is up to interpretation of feats to formulate an opinion on the matter.

@omarlionvision: Except that Black grew stronger again to the point that he could easily take on SSB Goku and Vegeta at once without even needing to enter combat himself.

@deathhero61:

They were already severely tired IIRC

Didn't happen. If anything, it was Goku Black who was severely tired - he just took a Galick Gun to the face then after that took a massive series of beatings from a newly empowered rage amped Vegeta.

and having clones that can hit hard but would be a waste of energy to attack kind of evened the odds,

It was clones generate from a rift from a single slice of Black's scythe. Imagine him slicing a million times in the midst of combat.

I am talking raw power. And Black by himself still wasn't enough to take on a healthy Vegeta or Goku

At his peak? It's pretty obvious that taking on Goku or Vegeta should be the least of his worries. His power is enough to tear through dimensions of time and space, and create enough pressure to block any teleportation movements if the person is near the rift.

I already agreed that Toppo outclasses Black in raw power but Black has hax that enables him to at least contend. I know Black isn't winning this one but the notion of Toppo stomping is hilarious.

Black wins. There is very little proof Goku or Vegeta got that much stronger by the time of Tournament of Power, and Blacks feats in power and hax outweigh Toppos anyway.

Why does Black has to tank or overpower Hakai in order to win? Can't he just send it to another dimension by cutting through one. Can't he just create enough clones to create a edge and use his scythe against toppo. Stab, cut, there are many things he can do with it.

Why does everyone treat raw power over hax abilities!

Fused Zamasu can outlast Toppo but not Rose.

@deathhero61: They were tired from fighting Black's clones.

Actually I might just change my opinion overall on SSB tier as a whole, I think Toei wrote themselves in a corner regarding Jiren.(who I used as a measuring stick for the current versions)

Goku and Vegeta powered up by the end of the Black arc, to the point where they could each beat Black in a power v power struggle. Merged Zamasu wasn't even twice as strong as them considering Vegeta alone splattered him, and the Potara fusion wasn't much stronger than that since he was still taking hits and even trading blows at one point. Contrast this to Buu saga Potara and it's plain to see that Vegito in Super did not receive the same proportionate increase.

In other words, Black is mid tier SSB, above low tier SSB and below high tier SSB. All of those are below ToP SSB.

Merged Zamasu is trash, and as far as power goes would have died several times if not for his immortality hax. By extension, SSB Vegito is also trash for not utterly curbstomping someone Vegeta alone obliterated. No reason to mention either here, but while we're at it, SSBKKX20 is also trash that does not do what it says on the tin, considering it only ever made a marginal difference and never reflected a true 20x increase in performance...compare it to the KKX20 Goku used against Freeza back in Z and again, the effect is not as great. Super just nerfed everything except where the plot demands (Kefla, Trunks)

Beginning of ToP Goku or Vegeta, having gotten even stronger since then, could straight up kill everyone mentioned above. Then they got stronger over the ToP arc. Then they got powerups, and NOW GoD Toppo is relevant. That's how far above Black he is.

Yep.

@thegreatlordd: Then that's my bad. I didn't wanna go the Trunks route, but there's the Trunks route too. MZ was still taking killshots from SSB/Trunks iirc, and at the very least they could still fight him. Making the same contrast to Z when they fused against Buu, they couldn't even fight him at all yet fused and performed one of the worst stomps in the series. In Super, they went from losing in an okay fight to fusing and...winning in an okay fight. Imo the point still stands.

@thegreatlordd: That's his abilities, though...which are great, don't get me wrong. Even Black did better once he started discovering his abilities. Power wise, he'd (Black) lose a beam struggle to End of Arc ssbs. If you took away MZ's endless energy and just look at his max output, he'd still beat those BA SSBs in a beam struggle...but not really by that much. It's one thing when people pay respect to his interesting moveset, but some seem to confuse that with raw power and then base an entire scaling process on it lol. Performance wise...the entire arc is obsolete. Until Dragonball Super Duper comes out contradicts itself again just to laugh at us.

Hey remember when Super Shenron was bigger than STTGL? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Toppo because power scaling.

I fail to see how Blacks clones are a problem. Sure they reformed after normal Ki blasts. But Hakai works differently. Take the rapid fire shots that missed SSBE Vegeta. They erased every part of the stone they touched as would be the case with the clones.

An easy explanation to this is that even SSBKK was not able to beat SS Rose. Goku were likely waiting for those "off guard" moments to have a chance of ending the fight.

And also he only managed to use SSBKK for like 3 sec against fused zamasu, just like how he did against Jiren at first. Makes me suspect that in the Black arc he was already prepared to use SSBKKx20, but was not able to sustain it. So all the more he couldn't use it recklessly.

@revold: Kaioken would of been more than enough for Black. Even without it he overpowered fused Zamasu, who should st least be multiple times stronger than Black.

Toppo won’t be in trouble. That Hakai that went up against Vegeta’s Final Explosion could erase an entire lineage of Black Gokus.

Toppo pulls a Frieza on him.

@alextheboss: It is known that potara fusion has different multipliers to different fusees. Fused Zamasu is a case whereby 2 totally different physical bodies are fused together, which is possible but has always not been recommended by the kaioshins, so it is not impossible that he will have some detrimental flaws. His immortality was halved, logically his power may very well be halved as well.

@revold: Fused Zamasu was clearly portrayed as stronger than Black. He was kicking everyone's butt right after he fused and they had to fuse to fight back against him. He even traded blows with SSB Vegito.

@alextheboss: Wasn't Black kicking everyone's butt too? Fused zamasu trading blows with vegito proves nothing. SSG Goku traded blows with Beerus too.

@revold: Black was getting beat up by Vegeta, then he powered up a bit and made clones, but he wasn't beating them up. And Trunks wasn't there either. Beerus was holding back on Goku, while Vegito had no reason to hold back on Zamasu, so it really isn't the same thing.

Toppo>Merged Zamasu

Toppo fodderstomps.

Toppo easily

You suggesting that Vegito wasn't holding back against Fused Zamasu? I suggest you go back and watch the fight again. You are arguing that the Fused Zamasu (who lost his halo) actually can have a decent fight with Vegito Blue, who is many times stronger than even Beerus. Even in his halo form he can't even out blast Blue Goku...

Of course, we are not comparing the Black before he masters the power of anger. That won't make any sense since Fused Zamasu came after that.

Trunks wasn't there either when Goku out-gunned Zamasu all by himself, in just Blue form. Zamasu wasn't holding back then if that's what you are wondering. And it's not like Black haven't outclassed Trunks (even before the anger mastery).

There's no way around this. We are left to conclude why Goku didn't use Kaio-Ken against Black is because of 3 things:

1. Back then, Goku can only hold Kaio-Ken x20 for about 5 secs. He needs to use it at the right moment.
2. Even if he can hold it, Goku Black was stronger than KKx20. Only at certain times when Black was off-guard can Goku even stand a chance to beat him.
3. Goku used it against Fused Zamasu, and it cost him to lose his cool and in the end cost him his face and his halo.

Now you can argue that Fused Zamasu is more easily off-guarded because of the flaw in his soul, as explained by DBS producer as his biggest weakness. Even then, it does not disprove that Black is stronger than Zamasu.

Still Toppo, but the fight will be hard as hell.

The notion of Toppo stomping Black is outright laughable.

@revold:

You suggesting that Vegito wasn't holding back against Fused Zamasu? I suggest you go back and watch the fight again.

He was at first, but not at the end.

You are arguing that the Fused Zamasu (who lost his halo) actually can have a decent fight with Vegito Blue, who is many times stronger than even Beerus. Even in his halo form he can't even out blast Blue Goku...

Corrupt Zamasu was stronger than halo Zamasu.

it does not disprove that Black is stronger than Zamasu.

You are the only person I've seen say Black might be stronger. If you want you could make a thread about this but I feel it would be locked because the answer is obvious.

lol Goku black is still above TG Frieza, how would frieza fare against his clones? i digress, idk whats to stop GB from zenkai-ing his way into toppo's tier in 30 seconds. Either GB zenkais his way to victory or Toppo beats him in a very hard fought battle.

GofD Toppo>>True Golden Frieza (Giving Pre-Tourney SSJ Blue Goku fits and handling weaker hakai)>Default Toppo>SSJR Goku Black>>Golden Frieza (Resurrection F arc)

Zenkai boosts folks. If you don't think Merged Zamasu gave Goku and Vegeta that work (which is what leads to Zenkai boots, your bananas.

The SSJB Beyond Vegeta that had Nakama No Jutsu boost that overcame GofD Toppo and tanked his hakais ROFLstomps SSJR Goku Blacks.

The scaling isn't "balanced", but it's there. SSJB Beyond Vegeta is a boosted Vegeta from a boost from the Future Trunks Arc.

That said, SSJR Goku Black may be the bare minimum for a GofD candidate. And that's because they have folk like Sidra (sp) in their ranks.

TL/DR: Agree with SuperDragoon978

@captfalcon725: Except that Zenkai boosts dosen't even happen to Goku and Vegeta after the Frieza Saga. People are making up shit because there is no available supported evidence to prove that characters actually got stronger.

Goku Black is significantly above 2 SSBs and his feats are comparable if not better than Toppo's. In fact, Vegeta in his strongest form isn't winning against Black, let alone stomping.

Can you prove this? Also, this didn't fully address my point. Corrupt zamasu still has to be at least on par with Beerus to even stand a chance against Vegito Blue.

Of course if you want to frame by frame, this is the time when Vegito got beaten up. This kind of thing happens all the time in DB (when ppl goes off guard). If I recall Beerus against SSG Goku cough blood or smth. So we have to look at the bigger picture.

Black charges at Toppo, touches his shield and boom!, he's erased.

SSB Goku got stomped by Black, but later a more fatigued SSB Goku out-blasted Fused Zamasu? Now we have Black weaker than Frieza? Cmon.

Any proof that Mastered Golden Frieza > base Toppo? I remember Vegeta Blue having a good fight with him.

Sure it's easy to say Zenkai boosts. But are they quantifiable? I've seen arguments that Goku can break Hit's dimension without KKx10. But Hit was just lying down there and didn't even bother to fight back. Neither did he use his new technique from his fight with Jiren.

And Black also has Zenkai boosts. In fact even faster than Goku's because he hasn't learned the full power of Goku from the start.

black vs toppo is a good fight

but vs GoD Toppo is ridiculous.

unless it's fusion zamasu which in that case id give zamasu the edge