What makes you say this? This just seems wrong. Gin was beating post Ulquiorra fight masked Ichigo who should be above Toshiro, considering he could damage the number 0 espadda at less than 50% power. Gin also seemed to have the edge, or at least went even against Toshiro when they fought, and Toshiro was clearly trying harder.
@alextheboss: What Gin did was beat Bankai Ichigo who's powers failed him. He didn't even have his mask during that battle and an un-named Getsuga Tenshou from Ichigo made Gin bleed(Chapter 399). Ichigo was not only mentally weakened in that battle, but he lacked resolve which is fuel for Ichigo(Mentally weakened). Him damaging Yammy(nicking his neck) really isn't much of a feat. Post-fight Kenpachi and Byakuya could both easily Damage Yammy without trying(Kenpachi sliced his arm off with ease and Byakuya smashed his face in). If Ichigo were physically and mentally decent, Gin wouldn't stand much of a chance.
post Ulquiorra fight masked Ichigo who should be above Toshiro
That's comparing Hax-based abilities(Toshiro) to physical-based abilities(Ichigo). They both stand out in their respective fields. It's a bad comparison. FB arc + Toshiro stomps Gin.
@highmantra_x0sp: What hax does that version of Toshiro have? Ice powers isn't really hax. The only hax I remember him getting was during the TYBW arc. And even without his mask Ichigo was stated to have the power of a captain at less than 50% power, which would imply his base is already 2x captain level.
What hax does that version of Toshiro have? Ice powers isn't really hax. The only hax I remember him getting was during the TYBW arc. And even without his mask Ichigo was stated to have the power of a captain at less than 50% power, which would imply his base is already 2x captain level.
Bankai Regeneration
Ice Clones
Manipulation of the atmosphere
Let's look at gin's powers.
Long sword
Fast sword speed
Some poison
Ice powers is counted as elemental hax. Bankai Ichigo isn't base Ichigo. Him having 2-2.5 times the amount of Reaitsu of a captain is all the more reason for him to beat Gin in a fight which further proves how he should've won that battle in his proper condition.
What makes you say this? This just seems wrong. Gin was beating post Ulquiorra fight masked Ichigo who should be above Toshiro, considering he could damage the number 0 espadda at less than 50% power. Gin also seemed to have the edge, or at least went even against Toshiro when they fought, and Toshiro was clearly trying harder.
I've gone over this several times already but to sum it all up:
Toshiro had the upper hand in the majority of their fight in the Soul Society Arc
Databook has Toshiro leading in two of the provided six categories (Speed & Kido), Gin leads in none of them. Composite has Toshiro above Gin ever since the Beginning of the Series
The only reason Gin was in it with Ichigo was that:
His fighting style
He fought against a mentally weakened Ichigo
Any lucky moments
Yammy is a fat tub of lard, his number proved to be irrelevant as we know Espada are only ranked based on Reiryoku and not Reiatsu. This is why characters weaker than Ichigo (no less Rukia of all people) were able to damage Yammy just as easily
Toshiro was "trying harder" since his childhood friend was going through extreme emotional trauma in which he knew Gin was behind in it.
@faradaysloth: Toshiro really didn't have the upper hand in their fight, and even if he had the slight edge, like you admitted, he was trying harder. The reason for why is irrelevant. The data book stats are in reference to if they are the same level of strength. We know this because Kenpachi's strength was actually crap during the soul society arc, yet he had a 10 on the scale. So clearly those can't be used to power scale, they can only be used to show what type of fighter they are and compare opponents of similar levels. If Gin has way more reiatsu than Toshiro, the stats would be irrelevant.
@faradaysloth: Toshiro really didn't have the upper hand in their fight, and even if he had the slight edge, like you admitted, he was trying harder. The reason for why is irrelevant. The data book stats are in reference to if they are the same level of strength. We know this because Kenpachi's strength was actually crap during the soul society arc, yet he had a 10 on the scale. So clearly those can't be used to power scale, they can only be used to show what type of fighter they are and compare opponents of similar levels. If Gin has way more reiatsu than Toshiro, the stats would be irrelevant.
I disagree. He incapacitated Gin in short time and dodged Gin's main movie during fighting from a centimeter away. He suffered no injuries in his fight with Gin while the same can't be said for the other way around. And trying harder is not an anti-feat or anything that would imply that Gin would be more powerful, not sure how Gin would've fought any better unless if he went Bankai, but at the same time, Hitsugaya also didn't go into bankai.
The databook stats go over six categories:
Power
Defence
Speed
Kido
Intelligence
Strength
Not sure why Kenpachi having the lowest in composite figure (which makes total sense, he's not that good as a Captain, he only knows how to fight up close & personal) would make the databook stats unreliable. They've rarely, if ever, been contradicted in the story.
And no, Gin doesn't have more power per the databook itself, and it evidently shows as how he couldn't defeat Hitsugaya in a 1v1.
@faradaysloth: Kenpachi had maxed out physical strength in the guide book and Aizen didn't. Aizen stopped a stronger opponent's sword with his finger. Going by the stats like you are is objectively wrong.
Also looking at Toshiro's respect thread, he had trouble with an arrancar who wasn't even an espadda while at 20% of his power. I'm pretty sure even if you multiply his power by 5, you would find scaling wise he should be below Gin, though it actually doesn't make sense how he fought with the number 3 espadda as well as he did either. It seems like he also had more trouble than Grimjow did against Luppi, and Grimmjow was wrecked by Tousen in base.
Even if he wasn't at his best, the version of Ichigo fought is still above any of the espadda besides R2 Ulquiorra imo. He did make Aizen bleed. Gin and Tousen seemed to be portrayed as being above the Espadda as well, and iirc Toshiro was weaker than Harribel in raw power.
Kenpachi had maxed out physical strength in the guide book and Aizen didn't. Aizen stopped a stronger opponent's sword with his finger. Going by the stats like you are is objectively wrong.
That's not a counter at all as you're completely leaving out three factors.
Komamura just engaged in a fight involving Kenpachi, the other Captain who you just admitted was maxed out in physical strength. Their fight started before the execution of Rukia, so it'd probably went on for some time.
Combine those three with Aizen being tied for third in durability, this is hardly a counter.
Also looking at Toshiro's respect thread, he had trouble with an arrancar who wasn't even an espadda while at 20% of his power.
This would only mean Gin would have the same trouble at 20%.
I'm pretty sure even if you multiply his power by 5, you would find scaling wise he should be below Gin
Scaling wise Gin doesn't scale much above, well, anyone in the Captain tier. His feats and statements are weak in comparison to the vast majority of others.
It seems like he also had more trouble than Grimjow did against Luppi, and Grimmjow was wrecked by Tousen in base.
This just isn't accurate. Tosen caught Grimmjow off guard when Grimmjow was done with a fight with Ichigo Kurosaki. Tosen was a bitch in comparison to others when he fought against Kenpachi, he's not as powerful as you claim to be.
Even if he wasn't at his best, the version of Ichigo fought is still above any of the espadda besides R2 Ulquiorra imo. He did make Aizen bleed.
He did this to an Aizen off guard as well.
Gin and Tousen seemed to be portrayed as being above the Espadda as well, and iirc Toshiro was weaker than Harribel in raw power.
I've never seen anything indicative that would lead me to believe Tosen, let alone Gin, are above all of the Espada.
That's not a counter at all as you're completely leaving out three factors.
Komamura just engaged in a fight involving Kenpachi, the other Captain who you just admitted was maxed out in physical strength. Their fight started before the execution of Rukia, so it'd probably went on for some time.
Combine those three with Aizen being tied for third in durability, this is hardly a counter.
The problem with that is Aizen should be number 1 or 2 in everything, as him and Yamamoto are literally leagues above everyone else.
This would only mean Gin would have the same trouble at 20%.
That really wouldn't make sense scaling wise though considering Gin and Tousen were portrayed to be vastly above Grimmjow.
Scaling wise Gin doesn't scale much above, well, anyone in the Captain tier. His feats and statements are weak in comparison to the vast majority of others.
Base 50% Ichigo was clearly relative to Yammy in strength, and Gin was clearly relative to full power Ichigo. Toshiro was relative to Harribel, if not weaker.
This just isn't accurate. Tosen caught Grimmjow off guard when Grimmjow was done with a fight with Ichigo
I'm pretty sure the purpose of that scene was meant to imply Tousen was above base Grimmjow.
Kurosaki. Tosen was a bitch in comparison to others when he fought against Kenpachi, he's not as powerful as you claim to be.
Couldn't that just be before he became part hollow? Also that Kenpachi should already be around released noitora tier, and Kaname's bankai doesn't give him a power buff. So it could easily go base Grimmjow<<Tosen<released Noitora<Kenpachi
He did this to an Aizen off guard as well.
Nah, Aizen clearly saw it coming
I've never seen anything indicative that would lead me to believe Tosen, let alone Gin, are above all of the Espada.
Tosen only is when fully hollowfied. Gin on the other hand is even stronger than fully hollowfied Tosen.
Komamura was clearly relative to Kenpachi in strength in their fight, and Komamura does have a power type bankai, and Tosen in his second form already surpassed that.
That's even worse, Ichigo nearly died prior lol. And there wasn't anything concrete of him being physically stronger than Kenpachi anyways, Zangetsu itself was needed to beat Kenpachi.
The problem with that is Aizen should be number 1 or 2 in everything, as him and Yamamoto are literally leagues above everyone else.
Aizen's stats in this arc don't even translate into later arcs as he absorbs the Hogyoku later on and undergoes multiple transformations. So it's really meaningless imo. And Yamamoto is indeed above everyone else in all categories except Strength, which is too, consistent.
That really wouldn't make sense scaling wise though considering Gin and Tousen were portrayed to be vastly above Grimmjow.
When though? I don't know why this misinformed claim still exists, I already debunked it in my Gin Ichimaru thread last summer, they're never portrayed to be that much above to anyone, let alone Gin.
Base 50% Ichigo was clearly relative to Yammy in strength, and Gin was clearly relative to full power Ichigo. Toshiro was relative to Harribel, if not weaker.
This isn't really a counter. The whole Yammy fight can be chucked out of the window save for a few scenes. He didn't walk the walk, simple.
I'm pretty sure the purpose of that scene was meant to imply Tousen was above base Grimmjow.
No, it was to show how Tosen is as a character and to set up later scenes like Orihime's power & Grimmjow's ruthlessness.
Couldn't that just be before he became part hollow?
Tosen's hollow form doesn't hold much relevance here.
Also that Kenpachi should already be around released noitora tier, and Kaname's bankai doesn't give him a power buff. So it could easily go base Grimmjow<<Tosen<released Noitora<Kenpachi
What? pretty sure he always had his eyepatch on during the fight
Gallery
first scan, during the fight. second scan, Aizen's reveal scene
So it's pretty obvious that this Kenpachi was below Released Nnoitra.
Nah, Aizen clearly saw it coming
And the page right before we clearly see the fact he only saw Ichigo when it was too late, hence his invulnerability as well as the lighting
Tosen only is when fully hollowfied. Gin on the other hand is even stronger than fully hollowfied Tosen.
Once again, nothing indicating this.
Komamura was clearly relative to Kenpachi in strength in their fight, and Komamura does have a power type bankai, and Tosen in his second form already surpassed that.
Would make sense since he underwent two transformations, that's a huge boost in power regardless of where you stood in the SS Arc.
And Yamamoto is indeed above everyone else in all categories except Strength, which is too, consistent.
No it isn't. He is clearly leagues above all of them in physical strength. He was able to stop FKT arc Aizen from moving and crushed part of his arm with his grip.
When though? I don't know why this misinformed claim still exists, I already debunked it in my Gin Ichimaru thread last summer, they're never portrayed to be that much above to anyone, let alone Gin.
The scene of him chopping off Grimjow's arm is the proof. Does Bleach have any evidence characters are significantly less durable when off guard like dragon ball? Imo that scenes clear intention was to show how big a threat Kaname was.
This isn't really a counter. The whole Yammy fight can be chucked out of the window save for a few scenes. He didn't walk the walk, simple.
Why? Kenpachi just got a power up so him doing that good isn't inconsistent. I believe Byakuya said he was training as well.
Tosen's hollow form doesn't hold much relevance here.
I'm not talking about his hollow form, I'm talking how he had to already become part hollow before transforming. Similar to how you brought up Aizen's stats going up after absorbing the hogyoku, even before he started visually transforming.
What? pretty sure he always had his eyepatch on during the fight
Gallery
first scan, during the fight. second scan, Aizen's reveal scene
So it's pretty obvious that this Kenpachi was below Released Nnoitra.
Even with his eyepatch he was still relative to Nnoitra was he not? With his eyepatch off and using two hands he one shot him.
And the page right before we clearly see the fact he only saw Ichigo when it was too late, hence his invulnerability as well as the lighting
How was it too late? It's not like Aizen needed to set up a technique, just have his reiatsu up and block it with his chest like Kenpachi.
No it isn't. He is clearly leagues above all of them in physical strength. He was able to stop FKT arc Aizen from moving and crushed part of his arm with his grip.
And the rest were capable of drawing blood of him without needing to use a full force of an arm grip strength. And Yamamoto never "crushed" Aizen's arm as it was never at a disadvantage later in the arc.
The scene of him chopping off Grimjow's arm is the proof.
It's not. Omaeda chopped off Soifon's arm ffs. Chopping one's arm off with swords is pretty much a point of CQC combat.
Does Bleach have any evidence characters are significantly less durable when off guard like dragon ball?
I am not obliged to answer this.
Imo that scenes clear intention was to show how big a threat Kaname was.
If you pick one scene out of context when several others directly contradict it, IDK what to tell you.
Why? Kenpachi just got a power up so him doing that good isn't inconsistent. I believe Byakuya said he was training as well.
Training doesn't make you jump several tiers in power in one day, especially when no timeframe is given. Once again, Rukia of all people managed to injure Yammy, stop overhyping this fat tub of lard.
I'm not talking about his hollow form, I'm talking how he had to already become part hollow before transforming. Similar to how you brought up Aizen's stats going up after absorbing the hogyoku, even before he started visually transforming.
So pretty much Tosen does in hollowfied form has no contradiction to his SS Arc stats.
Even with his eyepatch he was still relative to Nnoitra was he not? With his eyepatch off and using two hands he one shot him.
Define relative, because it took a few chapters to even injure NNoitra
How was it too late? It's not like Aizen needed to set up a technique, just have his reiatsu up and block it with his chest like Kenpachi.
Then I guess he simply just didn't have enough time to do so, because he was clearly distracted at first.
And the rest were capable of drawing blood of him without needing to use a full force of an arm grip strength.
Since when? And just so you know, a casual sword strike would carry far more potency than a full power grip.
It's not. Omaeda chopped off Soifon's arm ffs.
She wanted that to happen...
Chopping one's arm off with swords is pretty much a point of CQC combat.
Dude, you are a veteran bleach debater, how can you say something this dumb? There are an untold amount of examples where blades couldn't pierce or failed to go through stronger opponents.
I am not obliged to answer this.
You aren't obliged to do anything, but you are obliged to answer it if you want to prove your point.
We have seen many Bleach characters block weapons with their bare skin when attacked by weaker characters. So unless there is proof being off guard changes their durability, who should we assume it does? Do you think a regular human with a katana can chop Aizen's arm off he wasn't looking? I would hope you don't think that.
If you pick one scene out of context when several others directly contradict it, IDK what to tell you.
Show me a scene that directly implies Kaname is supposed to be weaker than Grimmjow. Don't try to use soul society scaling, as it's clear Kubo retconed the power scaling of that arc later on.
Training doesn't make you jump several tiers in power in one day, especially when no timeframe is given.
Wasn't there a large gap of time between the soul society arc and hueco mundo arc? And look how powerful he became after a small amount of training from the royal guard in the TYBW arc.
Once again, Rukia of all people managed to injure Yammy, stop overhyping this fat tub of lard.
It "hurt" him, but it didn't injure him. Also looking at the scan it looks like he may have just been sarcastic to make fun of her.
So pretty much Tosen does in hollowfied form has no contradiction to his SS Arc stats.
I don't think I ever mentioned Tosen's stats when trying to debunk the SS arc stats...
Define relative, because it took a few chapters to even injure NNoitra
Only because he specifically hard hard skin. iirc he said he had the hardest skin out of all the espada, which would even include Starrk.
Then I guess he simply just didn't have enough time to do so, because he was clearly distracted at first.
Or maybe Ichigo is just that strong? I don't know why you don't want to believe it when all the evidence points to that being the case. The mask changed to look like his VL form, it hurt Yammy while at less than 50% power, Unohana said even without his mask and at less than 50% power he was captain tier, he cut Aizen and badly injured him, and he was the only one who could sense chrysalis Aizen. Literally everything points to him being strong, his only "anti feat" is having trouble with Gin, who also happens to be the guy who would have killed transcended Aizen if not for his immortality. It seems like you want Ichigo to be weak because you want Gin to be weak. As far as I remember Gin has zero anti feats besides having trouble with Toshiro, who he didn't actually want to hurt, while Toshiro wanted to kill him. Remember the important plot point of Gin being a double agent? I'm sure you do, so you should know that can't be used against him. His one main fight is against a character seemingly stronger than all the captains and espadda, and he pierced transcended Aizen when most people could never bypass his skin.
And just so you know, a casual sword strike would carry far more potency than a full power grip.
A sword strike is useless when you can't even break the skin in the first place. Besides, once again, a full power grip that barely injured Aizen isn't proof that Yamamoto is tiers above the others when it comes to Strength.
She wanted that to happen...
What's the difference then? Sure Grimmjow never wanted his arm cut off, but the fact your whole entire claim of Tosen-Gin being above the Espada is based around a couple of out-of-context scenes is striking. How is Tosen cutting off Grimmjow's arm indicative of power but not Omaeda with Soifon? Double standards here.
Dude, you are a veteran bleach debater, how can you say something this dumb?
How is it dumb? There's more to telling comparative power levels than just Character A cutting off Character B's arm despite the latter being moderately injured + was not paying attention.
There are an untold amount of examples where blades couldn't pierce or failed to go through stronger opponents.
And there might be an untold amount of examples where the opposite happens. So this happening against an injured man while not paying attention is not indicative of power level difference.
You aren't obliged to do anything, but you are obliged to answer it if you want to prove your point.
I've already presented my claim and evidence. I've learned rather not answer counterclaims that try to bring in other series when you can just bring in-series evidence yourself.
We have seen many Bleach characters block weapons with their bare skin when attacked by weaker characters. So unless there is proof being off guard changes their durability, who should we assume it does?
Arrancars around when they first appeared were introduced of having a literal defensive technique to increase their durability, being Hierro. Hierro is obviously them using their Reiryoku to condense it down to durable skin (you can't just be born with having natural strong Hierro.) So one being caught off-guard when they're not condensing their power to durability might, IDK, make it appear as if their durability is weaker than usual.
Do you think a regular human with a katana can chop Aizen's arm off he wasn't looking? I would hope you don't think that.
I also hope you don't think the gaps between Grimmjow and Tosen aren't sextillions times big at a lowball.
Show me a scene that directly implies Kaname is supposed to be weaker than Grimmjow.
Him getting bodied by Eyepat-
Don't try to use soul society scaling
Oh so don't use evidence that directly shows you're wrong.
as it's clear Kubo retconed the power scaling of that arc later on.
Huh? What obvious bullshit that holds no evidence. It's confirmed that over half of the Espada are Captain level predating the Hueco Mundo arc & the month time skip. They scale directly to SS Arc Captains, there's no retconning here lol.
Wasn't there a large gap of time between the soul society arc and hueco mundo arc? And look how powerful he became after a small amount of training from the royal guard in the TYBW arc.
No there wasn't. And Tosen isn't even close to Ichigo in terms of biological makeup, he doesn't have the inherent abilities Ichigo does.
It "hurt" him, but it didn't injure him.
They're synonyms...
Also looking at the scan it looks like he may have just been sarcastic to make fun of her.
The SFX of "throb" and him clearly being exclamatory are contradictory to what you said.
Or maybe Ichigo is just that strong?
If you think being strong for a split second means they're stronger thereafter, you once again fail to understand Bleach & Ichigo. Ichigo is the same kid who blocked the Sogyoku in Shikai and no-sold Base Yhwach's strikes.
I don't know why you don't want to believe it when all the evidence points to that being the case.
I've created a whole thread on this in which I presented the counter evidence to all your claims.
The mask changed to look like his VL form
And he also was weakened and couldn't preform as well prior to the Mask.
HOW TF is being able to not Hollowfied as good as you did before proof that he's stronger than before?
it hurt Yammy while at less than 50% power
Rukia hurt Yammy. Kenpachi cut Yammy like butter. Byakuya thought Yammy was trash. Mayuri had no worries at all. Meanwhile:
Rukia nearly died against Aaroniero and only got a fatal hit through a specialized technique when his guard was down (this would work against Yammy as well if his head wasn't so big)
Kenpachi nearly died against Nnoitra who no-sold his attacks
Byakuya nearly died to Zommari in which he needed his strongest technique at the movement to counter his powers
Mayuri clearly had trouble with Szayel of all people, and came in prepared with drugs.
I'm not going to believe Ichigo is stronger than before simply because Yammy is the "0" Espada, give me a big f**king break.
Unohana said even without his mask and at less than 50% power he was captain tier
He stopped the Sogyoku when the Captains first saw him, not to mention his secret, hidden power that made him so strong in the first place. He's always been highlighted to have abnormally large amounts of spiritual power and spiritual pressure from the start. This obviously isn't evidence for your case.
he cut Aizen and badly injured him
He drew blood, that had no effect on Aizen fighting. And silly me of course, I forgot to present you two pieces of evidence that contradict this point as well, both happen just a few pages after your claim.
Aizen no-selling & swatting a Getsuga when Ichigo was his primary focus:
Gallery
And Aizen saying he was vulnerable in that moment, giving Ichigo the chance to injure him.
So can you please drop this sham?
and he was the only one who could sense chrysalis Aizen.
Consistent given Ichigo's constant potential throughout the series.
Literally everything points to him being strong
Opinion on everything you mentioned being refuted?
his only "anti feat" is having trouble with Gin, who also happens to be the guy who would have killed transcended Aizen if not for his immortality.
You're seriously now going to argue Gin's hax as a way to claim he's above all but a couple Captains/Espadas...
It seems like you want Ichigo to be weak because you want Gin to be weak.
"want" that's petty. The series itself kept telling us that Ichigo was not at full-strength, which makes perfect sense given the feats in that fight and the scaling of all characters prior. Sorry, I just don't want people spotting off misinformed inconsistency, because I know exactly what everyone thinks of the Ichigo vs Gin fight and it spawns a huge load of downplay when everything else directly contradicts that fight. I don't get any benefit by just telling you the truth, other than the fact I won't have to deal with these kinds of arguments anymore.
Remember the important plot point of Gin being a double agent? I'm sure you do, so you should know that can't be used against him.
HUH? So Gin allowing Hinamori to be nearly killed, was going to kill Rukia himself, bisecting Hiyori, allowing his former peers to be slaughtered (thrice), aiding the massacre of the Central 46, etc. just doesn't exist anymore? What purpose would Gin have in preserving Hitsugaya alive? Hell, he wasn't even a double-agent by definition, he was just a lone wolf who wanted to kill Aizen himself. He was marked as an enemy for the majority of the story and for in-verse purposes, only Aizen, Ichigo, & Rangiku know that he turned "good." JFC.
His one main fight is against a character seemingly stronger than all the captains and espadda, and he pierced transcended Aizen when most people could never bypass his skin.
Holy Jesus I can't believe I am yet once again talking about this dumb shit.
Surprise attack
Aizen allowed it to happen
It was a simple poke
It's up to you to be honest with yourself, not me.
That could have been all kyoka suigetsu though, but drawing blood with a needle and a sword isn't the same as gripping someone hard. It seems weird to say Yamammoto is one of the physically weakest when he legit has the best physical strength feats. Just look at his fight with Wonderweise, not to mention how ripped he was.
A sword strike is useless when you can't even break the skin in the first place.
And grip strength would be useless as well... And don't say grip strength doesn't require breaking the skin, because a sword strike would still carry more force, so even if it didn't break the skin it should shatter the arm. A sword strike will ALWAYS carry more force than grip strength if characters are of similar strength, that is just simple physics.
Besides, once again, a full power grip that barely injured Aizen isn't proof that Yamamoto is tiers above the others when it comes to Strength.
It shows Yamamoto is on the same strength tier as Aizen at the very least.
What's the difference then? Sure Grimmjow never wanted his arm cut off, but the fact your whole entire claim of Tosen-Gin being above the Espada is based around a couple of out-of-context scenes is striking. How is Tosen cutting off Grimmjow's arm indicative of power but not Omaeda with Soifon? Double standards here.
Maybe she can lower her durability, and it's not like Soifon is extremely powerful in the first place. She is more of a speedster.
How is it dumb? There's more to telling comparative power levels than just Character A cutting off Character B's arm despite the latter being moderately injured + was not paying attention.
It's dumb because swords don't work on characters far stronger than them, even if that's what they are for. Could Kaname have done that to EOS Aizen? No, if anything his sword would break first.
And there might be an untold amount of examples where the opposite happens.
Well if you actually post them and provide some evidence I might change my mind. So far you have just been saying theocraticals and when asked for evidence say no.
I've already presented my claim and evidence. I've learned rather not answer counterclaims that try to bring in other series when you can just bring in-series evidence yourself.
I didn't bring in another series for evidence, I brought it up to explain my point. If I was using another verse as an argument, brining up dragon ball would hurt me, not help me, as it works like the opposite of what I'm claiming. And no, you still have yet to actually post evidence proving Bleach character are weaker while off guard.
Arrancars around when they first appeared were introduced of having a literal defensive technique to increase their durability, being Hierro. Hierro is obviously them using their Reiryoku to condense it down to durable skin (you can't just be born with having natural strong Hierro.) So one being caught off-guard when they're not condensing their power to durability might, IDK, make it appear as if their durability is weaker than usual.
I never said they couldn't amp their defenses with techniques. However Kenpachi clearly didn't do that when blocking Ichigo's sword with his chest, so I'm asking what proves Kenpachi would be easier to cut if he didn't see it coming?
I also hope you don't think the gaps between Grimmjow and Tosen aren't sextillions times big at a lowball.
Irrelevant of the gap, the fact you accept they have a level of base durability based off their strength proves my point, so now that you agree with that you would have to quantify or prove their durability gets significantly weaker while off guard.
Him getting bodied by Eyepat-
Eyepatch Kenpachi would destroy base Grimmjow.
Oh so don't use evidence that directly shows you're wrong.
Soul society scaling clearly makes no sense. Byakuya was even with bankai Ichigo, and in the hueco mundo arc he was doing well against the number zero espada, even though bankai Ichigo couldn't even beat base Grimmjow at first. Like you said, it doesn't make much sense for Byakuya to get that much stronger, but clearly the power scaling in the two arcs are completley different.
Huh? What obvious bullshit that holds no evidence. It's confirmed that over half of the Espada are Captain level predating the Hueco Mundo arc & the month time skip. They scale directly to SS Arc Captains, there's no retconning here lol.
As stated above. Heck, Ichigo was having trouble with a guy who wasn't even an espada anymore and he legit beat Byakuya while weaker, and Byakuya ends up fighting on the zero espadda level and beating the 7th Espada.
You can write that off by characters getting stronger, but then the same would go for Kaname.
However Byakuya and Kenpachi were stated to straight up be some of the strongest captains during the soul society arc, and Kenapchi was only even with shikai Ichigo lmao. That would make the other captains douzens if not hundres of times stronger than him at that point with power scaling. See how that makes absolutely no sense?
No there wasn't. And Tosen isn't even close to Ichigo in terms of biological makeup, he doesn't have the inherent abilities Ichigo does.
I was talking about Byakuya getting stronger, not Ichigo.
They're synonyms...
Not really, hurt just means stimulation of pain receptors. Injury means tissue damage. You can be in pain/be hurt without tissue damage/injury.
If you think being strong for a split second means they're stronger thereafter, you once again fail to understand Bleach & Ichigo. Ichigo is the same kid who blocked the Sogyoku in Shikai and no-sold Base Yhwach's strikes.
Are you implying his strength fluctuates up and down? If anything that's more of Kubo just being inconsistent, and the sogyoku is basically featless. And he used blut against Yhwach and Yhwach didn't actually want to kill him iirc.
HOW TF is being able to not Hollowfied as good as you did before proof that he's stronger than before?
He was talking about how he couldn't properly maintain the mask. When it was on it was stronger than the previous one, period.
Not to mention his base form was already arguably stronger than his previous mask form, making the whole argument irrelevant in the first place.
Rukia hurt Yammy. Kenpachi cut Yammy like butter. Byakuya thought Yammy was trash. Mayuri had no worries at all. Meanwhile:
Rukia nearly died against Aaroniero and only got a fatal hit through a specialized technique when his guard was down (this would work against Yammy as well if his head wasn't so big)
Kenpachi nearly died against Nnoitra who no-sold his attacks
Byakuya nearly died to Zommari in which he needed his strongest technique at the movement to counter his powers
Mayuri clearly had trouble with Szayel of all people, and came in prepared with drugs.
I'm not going to believe Ichigo is stronger than before simply because Yammy is the "0" Espada, give me a big f**king break.
-Rukia gave him a little bit of pain, Ichigo sliced through his neck
-Kenpachi got a buff form his last fight, we both know this was explained in the last arc
-Yammy is trash, but he is powerful trash, so Byakuya's statement isn't actually wrong
-Mayuri didn't fight Yammy, and he saw two captains working together were capable of winning, so why would he be worried? Speaking of Mayuri, looking back at the fight he said he was going to end up dissecting the squad 11 captain before the big one, so he actually thought Kenpachi was going to lose in a 1v1.
Isn't there a bleach novel between arcs that says Kenpachi easily beats a VL Ichigo tier character? If that's the case I don't see why Kenpachi beating Yammy is contradicted by anything.
He stopped the Sogyoku when the Captains first saw him, not to mention his secret, hidden power that made him so strong in the first place. He's always been highlighted to have abnormally large amounts of spiritual power and spiritual pressure from the start. This obviously isn't evidence for your case.
She has sensed him before and this was clearly supposed to indicate Ichigo got stronger.
He drew blood, that had no effect on Aizen fighting. And silly me of course, I forgot to present you two pieces of evidence that contradict this point as well, both happen just a few pages after your claim.
Aizen no-selling & swatting a Getsuga when Ichigo was his primary focus:
So can you please drop this sham?
Bro, of course blocking an attack is better than letting it hit you directly. I'm asking for evidence that taking a blow straight up while on or off guard significantly changes durability. It looks like Aizen might have even stopped the getsugah with his sword.
You're seriously now going to argue Gin's hax as a way to claim he's above all but a couple Captains/Espadas...
The hax part was him leaving a piece of his sword behind. Show me where it's stated his sword just bypasses all durability. Isn't his bankai directly blocked by Ichigo? That would disprove your point, as it should have went through his sword and into Ichigo's body. And I'm not saying he is above all but a couple, I'm saying he is above all, except R2 Ulquiorra who is way above all of the others. The only characters who scale to Gin's level or above are Aizen, Yammamoto, Ichiog, Isshin, Kisuke, and maybe Yoruichi and Kyoraku.
Sorry, I just don't want people spotting off misinformed inconsistency, because I know exactly what everyone thinks of the Ichigo vs Gin fight and it spawns a huge load of downplay when everything else directly contradicts that fight.
Except a lot of your argument is headcanon trying to explain author inconsistencies, and there really isn't anything that directly contradicts Ichigo or Gin being that strong. Ichigo was stated to be over 2x captain level in base, which Aizen also claimed himself to be earlier, and Gin was holding his own against him and has no other serious fights to compare.
HUH? So Gin allowing Hinamori to be nearly killed, was going to kill Rukia himself, bisecting Hiyori, allowing his former peers to be slaughtered (thrice), aiding the massacre of the Central 46, etc. just doesn't exist anymore? What purpose would Gin have in preserving Hitsugaya alive? Hell, he wasn't even a double-agent by definition, he was just a lone wolf who wanted to kill Aizen himself. He was marked as an enemy for the majority of the story and for in-verse purposes, only Aizen, Ichigo, & Rangiku know that he turned "good." JFC.
Gin wasn't a good person, but he likes Rangiku, and Rangiku likes Hitsugaya, so I doubt he would try and kill Hitsugaya unless absolutely necessary. Also if he did that he would have been in huge trouble, and he wasn't ready for that yet.
Holy Jesus I can't believe I am yet once again talking about this dumb shit.
Surprise attack
Aizen allowed it to happen
It was a simple poke
It's up to you to be honest with yourself, not me.
1. Aizen said he knew it was coming and Aizen should also have insane reaction times, which would just prove how fast it is.
2. He allowed Gin to attempt it, he didn't allow him to pierce him.
3. Poking is better than most characters can do.
I'm being perfectly honestly. I'm not claiming Gin is transcended Aizen level, I'm claiming that feat is still extremely impressive and not many characters could replicate it, even if Aizen just stood there.
That could have been all kyoka suigetsu though, but drawing blood with a needle and a sword isn't the same as gripping someone hard. It seems weird to say Yamammoto is one of the physically weakest when he legit has the best physical strength feats. Just look at his fight with Wonderweise, not to mention how ripped he was.
I'd doubt Kanzen Saimin would show unrealistic actions unless at climax moments. And once again, Yamamoto needing a full power grip to draw physical injury is not beneficial at all to your argument, IDK why you keep bringing that up. Totally pointless.
As for the Wondereiss fight, what feats there were better than anything else shown? As far as I can tell it was Multi-City Block to City level at best. And being ripped doesn't mean shit, most characters are ripped in Bleach anyway.
It shows Yamamoto is on the same strength tier as Aizen at the very least.
That's bullshit, especially when Aizen one-shotted multiple Captains with strikes while Yamamoto couldn't put down Ayon in two strikes.
Maybe she can lower her durability
Bruh, seriously? Ain't no way, ain't no f**king way, not only is this a cheap counter but one of you're points was the doubt that durability can be lowered at random moments.
and it's not like Soifon is extremely powerful in the first place. She is more of a speedster.
She's one of the strongest Captains in terms of physical strength lol, but yeah speed is her main gig.
It's dumb because swords don't work on characters far stronger than them, even if that's what they are for. Could Kaname have done that to EOS Aizen? No, if anything his sword would break first.
Except for the fact that a massively weaker sword than Aizen pierced him. Ok.
Well if you actually post them and provide some evidence I might change my mind.
I'm not providing dozens of examples of characters stronger than swords being cut by them off-guard. Not worth my time especially since I hold no obligation to do so.
So far you have just been saying theocraticals and when asked for evidence say no.
Once again bullshit, and bad faith arguing here. I have presented way more evidence with links & scans, while the same can't be said for you. I made an entire thread about how Gin is weaker than what most think and no one could change my mind ever since I made that thread. To assume that I'm arguing theoreticals and refusing to present evidence for (trivial & irrelevant) issues is bad faith arguing considering your lack of the bargain.
I didn't bring in another series for evidence, I brought it up to explain my point. If I was using another verse as an argument, brining up dragon ball would hurt me, not help me, as it works like the opposite of what I'm claiming.
No, that's still evidence. Just stay on topic Alex and provide consistency to your claims.
And no, you still have yet to actually post evidence proving Bleach character are weaker while off guard.
Another bullshit counterclaim. It's in the description of Hierro that it's Reiryoku condensed into durability when fighting. There's no other explanation for when it's not preforming that ability, that their durability would naturally be lowered. There'd be zero need for Hierro otherwise.
I never said they couldn't amp their defenses with techniques. However Kenpachi clearly didn't do that when blocking Ichigo's sword with his chest, so I'm asking what proves Kenpachi would be easier to cut if he didn't see it coming?
Ichigo going FTE and cutting a surprised Kenpachi with a severe slash says hello:
Gallery
Irrelevant of the gap
It's not, just don't use dub analogies.
so now that you agree with that you would have to quantify or prove their durability gets significantly weaker while off guard.
Already have, you just didn't comprehend it given you didn't understand Hierro fully when I first introduced it to you.
Eyepatch Kenpachi would destroy base Grimmjow.
And this is suppose to help Tosen how?
Soul society scaling clearly makes no sense. Byakuya was even with bankai Ichigo, and in the hueco mundo arc he was doing well against the number zero espada, even though bankai Ichigo couldn't even beat base Grimmjow at first.
No, it makes sense, you just choose to make it seem difficult to understand. You still use Yammy's rank as an indicator in power scaling when all it is, is just a rank, a rank that has been countered with feats multiple times. We know Adjuchas Espada are equal to "SS Arc" Captains and it clearly replicates that belief in the HM Arc (Kenpachi>Nnoitra, Ichigo>Grimmjow, Byakuya>Zommari, & Mayuri>Szayel.) Nothing changed. They just all ganged up on an idiot with room temp IQ.
Like you said, it doesn't make much sense for Byakuya to get that much stronger, but clearly the power scaling in the two arcs are completley different.
It's not. Ichigo was always a monster at spiritual pressure since the start of the series but get bodied from time to time again, all his training is for him to master fractions of his power. Place EOS Ichigo in BOS and he never gets defeated ever. Same thing here, Yammy might have the most Reiryoku but he clearly sucks at putting it to use. Stop using his rank as if it means anything other than just potential.
As stated above. Heck, Ichigo was having trouble with a guy who wasn't even an espada anymore
You're talking about Dordoni? 100% strategic battle, once Ichigo powered up he one-shotted him. Stop it.
You can write that off by characters getting stronger, but then the same would go for Kaname.
They didn't get stronger and neither did Kaname. Been stated 5-10 Espada were at the same level pre-HM Arc, just accept it, it's not up for debate.
However Byakuya and Kenpachi were stated to straight up be some of the strongest captains during the soul society arc, and Kenapchi was only even with shikai Ichigo lmao.
Your out of context claims are always amusing, but scary since some might fall for it.
I was talking about Byakuya getting stronger, not Ichigo.
Ditto then.
Not really
No, stop. Look up a thesaurus FFS.
Are you implying his strength fluctuates up and down?
Um...yes.
Gallery
It's 12:40 where I'm at, but here's the rest of examples:
Struggles with Renji, low diffs him then
Struggles with Kenpachi, beats him in the end
Struggles with Byakuya, starts to no diff him
Grimmjow goes from no selling attacks to being severely injured by a single Getsuga
Was getting stomped by Ulquiorra, then stomped him
Goes from high tier to god tier to low tier in a few chapters
Was a mid tier, then busts a dimensions that multiple Captains couldn't
Had difficulty with Quilge, then tanked attacks from Base Yhwach
It wasn't until Oetsu's training in which Ichigo finally hand his powers down, and even then he still received power boosts in his fight against Yhwach.
If anything that's more of Kubo just being inconsistent
Dumb counter.
and the sogyoku is basically featless.
Which isn't a bad thing at all?
He was talking about how he couldn't properly maintain the mask. When it was on it was stronger than the previous one, period.
No proof that hasn't already been debunked about this. Just give it up, my friend.
Not to mention his base form was already arguably stronger than his previous mask form, making the whole argument irrelevant in the first place.
Also, once again, no proof.
-Rukia gave him a little bit of pain, Ichigo sliced through his neck
Uh, ok?
-Kenpachi got a buff form his last fight, we both know this was explained in the last arc
Taking the statement from Unohana and then using it as proof as if Kenpachi jumped tiers won't work, especially when we know he was still being relative to Byakuya at that point.
-Yammy is trash, but he is powerful trash, so Byakuya's statement isn't actually wrong
I don't know how you can admit he's trash but then act as if he was some big shot still.
Isn't there a bleach novel between arcs that says Kenpachi easily beats a VL Ichigo tier character? If that's the case I don't see why Kenpachi beating Yammy is contradicted by anything.
Those two aren't related. Like you said, we both know he gets more "buff" with every fight and this story took place months after Chapter 423. Kenpachi vs Yammy doesn't have to be contradicted either, just that you misrepresent what actually happened.
She has sensed him before and this was clearly supposed to indicate Ichigo got stronger.
Is Ichigo more powerful when he was in Hueco Mundo than in Soul Society? Sure. Does this mean he wasn't already insanely powerful in the latter? No.
Bro, of course blocking an attack is better than letting it hit you directly. I'm asking for evidence that taking a blow straight up while on or off guard significantly changes durability.
I absolutely love how you skip over the fact that I highlighted Aizen's confirmation that he was vulnerable at that moment, and now he wasn't he blocked a Getsuga with nothing but his hand. At this point it looks as if you just want to keep arguing this even though we both know you have nothing left for your foundation.
Show me where it's stated his sword just bypasses all durability.
Strawman.
That would disprove your point
Assuming that was ever my point.
I'm saying he is above all, except R2 Ulquiorra who is way above all of the others.
Both of those claims are wrong.
The only characters who scale to Gin's level or above are Aizen, Yammamoto, Ichiog, Isshin, Kisuke, and maybe Yoruichi and Kyoraku.
Sweet baby Jesus. Mind whomever is reading that Gin's best feats is cutting a city in half, while Bankai Renji tanked an attack that violently fragmented something relative in size.
In fact let's get back to this, tell me how Gin is more powerful than the Espada, since your evidence boils down to two primary things:
Ichigo injuring Yammy at >50%despite characters weaker than him prior to this fight could already hurt Yammy, meaning there was no proof of growth.
Tosen cutting off Grimmjow's Arm despite the mountain loads of evidence to the contradictory of their feats through scaling, how Arrancar techniques work, logic, etc.
Without these two debunked pieces of evidence, prove your claim. By all means, go for it.
Except a lot of your argument is headcanon
I use feats, statement, links, and databook stats for my claims. I can count the number of scans you've presented on one hand. Unbelievable dishonest debating.
trying to explain author inconsistencies
You thought Ichigo power fluctuation was inconsistency when it's been explained pre-Chapter 50. Stop it.
and there really isn't anything that directly contradicts Ichigo or Gin being that strong.
Except feats, statements, databook statements, etc. An entire thread on this bud.
Ichigo was stated to be over 2x captain level in base
He nearly made Yamamoto's jaw drop as early as SS Arc. Stop this.
and Gin was holding his own against him and has no other serious fights to compare.
Gin held his own through cunning fighting strategy of a weakened individual. Once again, stop this, it's over.
Gin wasn't a good person, but he likes Rangiku, and Rangiku likes Hitsugaya, so I doubt he would try and kill Hitsugaya unless absolutely necessary.
Rangiku also liked Hinamori. JFC.
Also if he did that he would have been in huge trouble, and he wasn't ready for that yet.
Hitsugaya as well.
1. Aizen said he knew it was coming and Aizen should also have insane reaction times, which would just prove how fast it is.
Ok then, we go by Gin lying statement which would logically mean it was massively faster than it should be. Sorry, but you're not going to win this battle.
2. He allowed Gin to attempt it, he didn't allow him to pierce him.
"I wanted to see how you'd kill me, so when you held a gun to me and pulled the trigger, I wondered why I let that happen"
3. Poking is better than most characters can do.
Soifon, Hitsugaya, & Shunsui all poked him.
I'm being perfectly honestly. I'm not claiming Gin is transcended Aizen level, I'm claiming that feat is still extremely impressive and not many characters could replicate it, even if Aizen just stood there.
Then you're ignoring close to 300 chapters of manga content my friend.
. I made an entire thread about how Gin is weaker than what most think and no one could change my mind ever since I made that thread.
I completely forgot about this. Looks like the last post there was months ago. If you're still interested, I'd be more than happy to continue it, like tomorrow or something.
. I made an entire thread about how Gin is weaker than what most think and no one could change my mind ever since I made that thread.
I completely forgot about this. Looks like the last post there was months ago. If you're still interested, I'd be more than happy to continue it, like tomorrow or something.
Would be happy to continue this, though will be tough to regain knowledge on the current talking points lol. Take your time!
That could have been all kyoka suigetsu though, but drawing blood with a needle and a sword isn't the same as gripping someone hard. It seems weird to say Yamammoto is one of the physically weakest when he legit has the best physical strength feats. Just look at his fight with Wonderweise, not to mention how ripped he was.
I'd doubt Kanzen Saimin would show unrealistic actions unless at climax moments. And once again, Yamamoto needing a full power grip to draw physical injury is not beneficial at all to your argument, IDK why you keep bringing that up. Totally pointless.
The fact he could grab Aizen and he couldn't pull away would imply Yamamoto is physically stronger, or at least the same tier of strength. Not to mention how dumb a plan it would be to try and get someone close and physically grab them if you are physically weaker. I don't know why you are trying to die on this hill when it's clear Yamamoto isn't supposed to be one of the physically weakest captains, not to mention Aizen scales to be douzens of times more powerful than some of the captains in the soul society arc. The only way those stats make sense is if they are talking about characters of similar power.
Not to mention he knocked back two captains with one simple swing, one of which had a higher strength stat than him.
Konomura with a strength of 100, higher than Aizens, while using bankai while Aizen was in base, couldn't even overpower him with the help of another captain level character.
If we believe in those stats, Myuri would have kido on par with Aizen. I don't know why you want them to be proof of who is actually stronger so bad. They are like the stats from the Naruto book, they can't be used completely seriously. At best they just show what type of fighter they are. Feats clearly come first.
As for the Wondereiss fight, what feats there were better than anything else shown? As far as I can tell it was Multi-City Block to City level at best. And being ripped doesn't mean shit, most characters are ripped in Bleach anyway.
Show many how many other captains have raw strength feats like this.
That's bullshit, especially when Aizen one-shotted multiple Captains with strikes while Yamamoto couldn't put down Ayon in two strikes.
First you will need to prove Ayon is easier to put down than the captains. Not only is he strong, his big body would make him harder to one shot. Did Yamamoto even fail to hurt him? He pierced a giant hole through his body and then chopped him in half. I don't see how that can be used as an anti feat at all.
Bruh, seriously? Ain't no way, ain't no f**king way, not only is this a cheap counter but one of you're points was the doubt that durability can be lowered at random moments.
I didn't say durability couldn't be lowered, I said there is no proof that characters not seeing attacks coming would make them extremely vulnerable. They would have a base durability due to their reiatsu, which could most likely be enhanced if they focus their energy to block, or be lowered if they purposefully suppressed themselves. What I was asking was for proof they have fodder durability when off guard. While not at their best, their durability should still be somewhat relative to their tier, even when not completely ready.
She's one of the strongest Captains in terms of physical strength lol, but yeah speed is her main gig.
The fact her physical strength stat is 100 should be further proof how wonky those stats would be if they were all encompassing and not accounting for reiatsu levels.
Looking at some of her fights again, she had trouble with Ggio Vega. Please don't tell me you think he could physically contend with Aizen and Yamamoto as well. Even if you somehow thought she was around as strong as them, 4 levels above Yamaoto and 2 above Aizen... really?
Except for the fact that a massively weaker sword than Aizen pierced him. Ok.
When did a massively weaker sword pierce EOS Aizen? Or is that not what you meant? I'm not quite sure what you are saying here or how it's a counter to me asking you if you think Kanme could pierce EOS Aizen while off guard.
I'm not providing dozens of examples of characters stronger than swords being cut by them off-guard. Not worth my time especially since I hold no obligation to do so.
You don't have to post douzens, lmao. One or two would be nice. Or just stating the examples so I can check.
Once again bullshit, and bad faith arguing here. I have presented way more evidence with links & scans, while the same can't be said for you. I made an entire thread about how Gin is weaker than what most think and no one could change my mind ever since I made that thread. To assume that I'm arguing theoreticals and refusing to present evidence for (trivial & irrelevant) issues is bad faith arguing considering your lack of the bargain.
Lol what convincing evidence or scans have you provided? I debunked mostly all of it, the only thing you actually brought up that I think is actually relevant is the throbbing sfx when Yammy was hit. All the other stuff you posted honestly proved nothing and I already gave me counters.
No, that's still evidence. Just stay on topic Alex and provide consistency to your claims.
Easy to understand examples to explain reasoning isn't evidence, but whatever.
Another bullshit counterclaim. It's in the description of Hierro that it's Reiryoku condensed into durability when fighting. There's no other explanation for when it's not preforming that ability, that their durability would naturally be lowered. There'd be zero need for Hierro otherwise.
I never said they couldn't increase their durability. I stated this multiple times. Just like Sonido and flash step increase speed, that doesn't mean they aren't fast without them...
Ichigo going FTE and cutting a surprised Kenpachi with a severe slash says hello:
Gallery
Ichigo was constantly getting stronger in that fight and it still didn't do much damage to Kenpachi.
Already have, you just didn't comprehend it given you didn't understand Hierro fully when I first introduced it to you.
No, it's you who didn't comprehend my point. This whole time I believed
I was arguing that their base durability wasn't fodder and completely out of their tier, for example Aizen failed to cut soul society Ichigo in half even though he didn't see Aizen's blade coming. Aizen is stronger than Kaname, and Grimmjow was stronger than that injured and tired Ichigo, so that further proves my point.
And this is suppose to help Tosen how?
It doesn't, it just makes your point irrelevant. You were bringing up how getting bodied by eyepatch Kenpachi was supposed to prove Kaname was weak, but being bodied by someone stronger than released Grimmjow doesn't prove anything. You were trying to use an anti feat which doesn't work to dismiss my claim. Why are you acting like a shutting down a counter has to prove my argument? You are a veteran debater, you should know disputing a counter claim doesn't have to give further evidence to my own original claim. It's like you had to add something to my perfectly logical counter because you had nothing to say but didn't want to actually feel like you had your point dismissed.
No, it makes sense, you just choose to make it seem difficult to understand. You still use Yammy's rank as an indicator in power scaling when all it is, is just a rank, a rank that has been countered with feats multiple times. We know Adjuchas Espada are equal to "SS Arc" Captains and it clearly replicates that belief in the HM Arc (Kenpachi>Nnoitra, Ichigo>Grimmjow, Byakuya>Zommari, & Mayuri>Szayel.) Nothing changed. They just all ganged up on an idiot with room temp IQ.
The problem is with soul society scaling Byakuya should be base Grimmjow level or lower.
It's not. Ichigo was always a monster at spiritual pressure since the start of the series but get bodied from time to time again, all his training is for him to master fractions of his power. Place EOS Ichigo in BOS and he never gets defeated ever. Same thing here, Yammy might have the most Reiryoku but he clearly sucks at putting it to use. Stop using his rank as if it means anything other than just potential.
I'm not saying he is the best in combat, but his durability and attack power should still be top tier espadda level. I agree in an actual fight he would lose to any of the top 4. He should beat the rest though.
You're talking about Dordoni? 100% strategic battle, once Ichigo powered up he one-shotted him. Stop it.
He had to use his mask though, and without his mask he was outspeeding Byakuya. Also this Ichigo should be stronger than SS Ichigo.
They didn't get stronger and neither did Kaname. Been stated 5-10 Espada were at the same level pre-HM Arc, just accept it, it's not up for debate.
Then how could bankai Ichigo get absolutely stomped by base Grimmjow when he was able to fight on par with Byakuya and be stronger than initial SS arc Kenpachi, who previoulsy beat a captain and was considered one of the stronger captains at that point. You have to at least admit Kenpachi initially being one of the stronger captains was retconned.
Your out of context claims are always amusing, but scary since some might fall for it.
How is full power shikai Ichigo with his getsuga not on par with Kenpachi? Kenpachi admitted he won. Unless you are saying that was a temporary power boost that actually pushed him past or at least to his bankai level strength.
No, stop. Look up a thesaurus FFS.
Um you realizes words can be synonyms and can also have different meanings right? Being hurt can mean physical damage or pain. Injury only means physical damage. So it can be a synonym with hurt, but hurt also can be used in a way injured can't be.
a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language
Funny how you tell me to look it up but you are clearly the one who needs to do his research. FFS.
Um...yes.
Gallery
That proves he can't properly use his power, it doesn't prove he goes from being strong to weaker to stronger to weaker. Like there is no reason to believe he was weaker against Grimmjow than he was against Byakuya.
Struggles with Renji, low diffs him then
I don't remember that entire fight, but could that not just be him learning how to fight while he is doing it?
Struggles with Kenpachi, beats him in the end
Same as above but he only won due to using getsuga at the end and having help from zengetsu, so this is hardly a fair example.
Struggles with Byakuya, starts to no diff him
Because of the mask and zangetsu again, so not a good example.
Grimmjow goes from no selling attacks to being severely injured by a single Getsuga
The only attack he was injured by was getsuga tenshou and even Ichigo said he wasn't severely injured. It's not like his basic attacks went from working to not working, or his getsuga went from working to not working. He just finally used a stornger attack.
Was getting stomped by Ulquiorra, then stomped him
Because of his VL form... Again, I'm not arguing he doesn't have latent power he isn't using.
Goes from high tier to god tier to low tier in a few chapters
Irrelevant to what you and I are arguing. I was asking if Ichigo randomly went up and down in power, not including special attacks and forms.
Was a mid tier, then busts a dimensions that multiple Captains couldn't
When was this? If this was the fight in FKT, he was already 2x captain level by then. And that clearly wasn't talking about his reserves, but his current power he could use.
Had difficulty with Quilge, then tanked attacks from Base Yhwach
Because of Blut. And I doubt Yhwach wanted to kill him.
Which isn't a bad thing at all?
It's not bad, it just can't really be used to gouge power.
No proof that hasn't already been debunked about this. Just give it up, my friend.
Except even Aizen said that it was a new power he gained form fighting Ulquiorra, meaning it was stronger. And he clearly wasn't talking about latent ability, as Ichigo always would have had that.
Also, once again, no proof.
Ichigo clearly made massive gains in each fight with the espadda and Aizen literally confirmed it. He did better in his second fight with Ulquiorra in base than he did in his first with his mask, so why would his gains from the Ulquiorra fight be less than the one from the Grimmjow fight? The fact Unohana said he was over 2x captain level in base also backs this up.
Taking the statement from Unohana and then using it as proof as if Kenpachi jumped tiers won't work, especially when we know he was still being relative to Byakuya at that point.
He may have been "relative" but honestly all he did was push Yammy back, while Kenpachi was the only one who was doing things like cutting off legs.
I don't know how you can admit he's trash but then act as if he was some big shot still.
My point was he has high stats, not that he is the best of the espadda.
Those two aren't related. Like you said, we both know he gets more "buff" with every fight and this story took place months after Chapter 423. Kenpachi vs Yammy doesn't have to be contradicted either, just that you misrepresent what actually happened.
What big fights does he go through between those fights? In the canon bleach verse there is not a single character who could have pushed Kenpachi in between that time, unless they showed up in that novel, so you are going to have to provide evidence of that.
Is Ichigo more powerful when he was in Hueco Mundo than in Soul Society? Sure. Does this mean he wasn't already insanely powerful in the latter? No.
I didn't say he wasn't strong before, but he was weaker than less than 50% Ichigo at that point, or Unohana wouldn't have been shocked.
I absolutely love how you skip over the fact that I highlighted Aizen's confirmation that he was vulnerable at that moment, and now he wasn't he blocked a Getsuga with nothing but his hand. At this point it looks as if you just want to keep arguing this even though we both know you have nothing left for your foundation.
I never said he wasn't vulnerable or couldn't have done better blocking that attack, but if he didn't have any sort of base durability at all he would have been paste. Even while not ready, there is no way Ichigo is cutting Aizen's arm off, let alone without a technique.
Strawman.
Is it though? If it's not bypassing durability then how did it pierce Aizen? It's either potent enough to do so, or bypassed his durability some how. Either way it makes it more deadly than anything Toshiro had at that point.
Both of those claims are wrong.
There is nothing that disproves R2 Ulquiorra being above the others, and he has the greatest raw feats, therefore none of the others scale to him. The fact there was a statement saying Aizne didn't know about the form and his number disapeared should be enough clue. Also the fact he was the only one with a second release and his reatisu was stated to feel completely different. This isn't' really relevant to this debate though.
Sweet baby Jesus. Mind whomever is reading that Gin's best feats is cutting a city in half,
That feat is better than almost all of what the other captains have.
while Bankai Renji tanked an attack that violently fragmented something relative in size.
When was this? During that movie?
In fact let's get back to this, tell me how Gin is more powerful than the Espada, since your evidence boils down to two primary things:
Ichigo injuring Yammy at >50%despite characters weaker than him prior to this fight could already hurt Yammy, meaning there was no proof of growth.
Tosen cutting off Grimmjow's Arm despite the mountain loads of evidence to the contradictory of their feats through scaling, how Arrancar techniques work, logic, etc.
Without these two debunked pieces of evidence, prove your claim. By all means, go for it.
Aizen literally attacked Harribel because he thought she was useless, yet he chose to keep Gin. You can't argue this is out of loyalty because Hallibel was more loyal to Aizen if anything, and Aizen knew Gin wasn't loyal. This can only mean Aizen thinks Gin is above Hallibel at least, and she was above Toshiro. If you go by raw feats, Gin has better than either Hallibel or Toshrio at that point.
I use feats, statement, links, and databook stats for my claims. I can count the number of scans you've presented on one hand. Unbelievable dishonest debating.
You are using scans to back your claims, but that doesn't make the claims correct unless they outright prove what you are saying, but they don't. You are posting your scans and giving interpretation. I have been debunking your reasoning, I don't need to post scans to debunk reasoning or interpretation of scans already posted.
Acting like the number of scans you post makes you the correct one or the one not using headcanon is the real dishonest thing.
You thought Ichigo power fluctuation was inconsistency when it's been explained pre-Chapter 50. Stop it.
The fluctuations you were talking about, or at least brought up are different that the ones I was talking about. I was talking about his base power going up and down, not him using power ups special moves and transformations. Like I don't think there is any reason or proof bankai Ichigo against base Grimmjow in their first fight should be weaker than bankai Ichigo vs Byakuya.
Except feats, statements, databook statements, etc. An entire thread on this bud.
I'll look at that thread, but the data books are scuff as I've already explained, and there are no statements that imply Gin or Ichigo should be weaker than Toshiro.
He nearly made Yamamoto's jaw drop as early as SS Arc. Stop this.
Because of how strong he was for being some random soul he didn't know. Unohana already knew of him, saw his power before, and knew he fought Byakuya and what he went through. These examples aren't comparable, stop this.
Gin held his own through cunning fighting strategy of a weakened individual. Once again, stop this, it's over.
I'm not saying I think Gin's raw power is the same or above Ichigo at that point, just that as a fighter he is clearly comparable.
Rangiku also liked Hinamori. JFC.
Aizen was the one who chose to kill her, and that wasn't in public.
Hitsugaya as well.
Hitsugaya wasn't in his right mind and didn't care. He wanted Gin dead and was thirsty for revenge, Gin didn't care about Hitsugaya at all and had no beef with him. One wanted something and didn't care what he would lose, and the other wanted something else that would have been hindered if he got in trouble there. Not comparable. That fight absolutely can't be used to compare Gin's full power, period.
Ok then, we go by Gin lying statement which would logically mean it was massively faster than it should be. Sorry, but you're not going to win this battle.
Ok, that's possible... I don't think it's the case, but it is possible and would only help my argument here, lol.
"I wanted to see how you'd kill me, so when you held a gun to me and pulled the trigger, I wondered why I let that happen"
Where does that say, "I lowered my reiatsu to purposefully allow it to pierce my chest"? He may not have actively tried to stop it, but it proves Gin can bypass his base defense somehow.
Soifon, Hitsugaya, & Shunsui all poked him.
Why are you comparing base Aizen to transcended Aizen? Also Hitsugaya poked Hinamomri, lol. And Shunsui is the second strongest captain who was above the first espadda, while everyone else needed help to beat a single espadda.
Then you're ignoring close to 300 chapters of manga content my friend.
The fact he could grab Aizen and he couldn't pull away would imply Yamamoto is physically stronger, or at least the same tier of strength.
That's a dumb way of judging physical strength, especially given Aizen's IC superiority of others that allows others try to preform their moves since "everything is going as planned." Hence why he never made any attempt to pull away from Yamamoto's grip, why? Wonderweiss was already saved as a backup shown a few pages later, no point in pulling away.
Not to mention how dumb a plan it would be to try and get someone close and physically grab them if you are physically weaker.
You realize Yamamoto did this three chapters later, right?
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And in Chapter 393, before Wonderweiss came, Yamamoto clearly signifies that he's totally willing to die for his duty:
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Who's to say that if Aizen survived that alongside Yamamoto, that in that same arm grip he'd use Itto Kaso?
I don't know why you are trying to die on this hill when it's clear Yamamoto isn't supposed to be one of the physically weakest captains, not to mention Aizen scales to be douzens of times more powerful than some of the captains in the soul society arc.
A year or two ago I'd agree with this sentiment, I'd would've also agreed with Bleach being massively slower and weaker in the Pre-Timeskip though, not to mention been incredibly inconsistent with its feats and statements. So through establishing the consistent feats, scaling, statements, etc. I came back to these databook stats, looked over them, and realized that there is a genuine consistency among them that goes on for the entirety of pre-timeskip, with some exceptions (Aizen gaining the Hogyoku)
For Yamamoto, look at his respect thread, do you see any pure strength feats that is tiers above anyone else has shown (be honest)? You should see that the only thing that holds you back from this stance is incredulity. And really this stat is so minor as it's only a sixth in determining a Captain's capability, all this means is that Yamamoto likely just benches less, big deal. He still is one of the most powerful, fastest, durable, etc. it seems to me you want to get rid of the databook stats over little things that don't even debunk the charts.
The only way those stats make sense is if they are talking about characters of similar power.
Show the inconsistency then.
Not to mention he knocked back two captains with one simple swing, one of which had a higher strength stat than him.
And yet it was confirmed that they were hesitant in fighting him, trying to avoid fighting directly, to the point of not even releasing their zanpauktos:
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Not to mention singular instances cannot debunk hundreds of chapters of consistency.
Konomura with a strength of 100, higher than Aizens, while using bankai while Aizen was in base, couldn't even overpower him with the help of another captain level character
Aizen got stronger in the FKT Arc than what he was in the SS Arc...he absorbed the Hogyoku for a reason...
If we believe in those stats, Myuri would have kido on par with Aizen.
Why would that be doubtful? Mayuri was never shown to have weak Kido, he just prefers using his own mechanics for fighting. When he does use Kido, he effortlessly spawns specialized spells that can no-sell strikes from Captains:
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Where is the inconsistency.
I don't know why you want them to be proof of who is actually stronger so bad.
To debunk the myth that Bleach is inconsistent, but at this point it seems as if you're the more desperate one in this case.
They are like the stats from the Naruto book, they can't be used completely seriously. At best they just show what type of fighter they are. Feats clearly come first.
Firstly, Naruto databooks hold no relevance here. Secondly, you still haven't provided multiple irrefutable inconsistencies to debunk the databooks. Lastly, the feats within the series are perfectly consistent with the databook stats.
Show many how many other captains have raw strength feats like this.
Kenpachi:
Self explanatory. Uplifted practically island mass through just skydiving
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Komamura:
Pulverized an area that's visibly larger than multiple city blocks with just the air pressure of a strike in Shikai:
Calls Kenpachi weak in a straight up sword fight lol
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Before you jump on the whole Kenpachi 100>Unohana 90 in strength databook, I think it's clear that Kenpachi was always intended to be stronger than Unohana, we just know he was physically holding back for the entire story virtually.
Aizen:
Pretty sure I don't need to provide anything here, one-shotting Captains seems enough (albeit Hitsugaya was in rage, doubt this would've happened in a normal setting) and I doubt you even disagree with Aizen being stronger than Yamamoto.
Pretty sure there's some potency in other feats but Toshiro isn't a strength-based fighter anyways, so pointless.
Gin:
Ew defending Gin's power, but whatever lol, you tell me what looks superior:
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vs.
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I mean, even by your overestimation of the Yamamoto vs Wonderweiss/Ichigo vs Gin fights, I think even you can see which feat is portrayed to be superior.
Isn't a strength-based fighter, so this is useless. You can make an argument of him parrying strikes from Shikai Ichigo though I guess.
First you will need to prove Ayon is easier to put down than the captains. Not only is he strong, his big body would make him harder to one shot.
A mindless monster that has shown no feats superior to a Captain would be harder to put down? Don't see it like that, but whatever makes sense I guess.
Did Yamamoto even fail to hurt him? He pierced a giant hole through his body and then chopped him in half. I don't see how that can be used as an anti feat at all.
It's not, but it's proof nonetheless that doesn't support Yamamoto being tiers above all the other Captains in physical strength.
I didn't say durability couldn't be lowered, I said there is no proof that characters not seeing attacks coming would make them extremely vulnerable.
No one claimed that they'd be "extremely" vulnerable, just that being off-guard is a valid explanation as to not no-selling an attack.
The fact her physical strength stat is 100 should be further proof how wonky those stats would be if they were all encompassing and not accounting for reiatsu levels.
It's quite never shown to be inconsistent within the series itself. Her Shunko is wind-based meaning it's highly more physical based than lightning/Yoruichi or fire/Yushiro. And we know she perfected it as soon as after her fight with Yoruichi, and we know Shunko can damage Aizen's skin in a form more powerful than the arm grip feat you wank.
By this simplistic logic, there's no way you can possibly deny Soifon her rightful place in the verse without having double standards.
Looking at some of her fights again, she had trouble with Ggio Vega.
4 levels above Yamaoto and 2 above Aizen... really?
Yes on the former since the stat is really only determining which of them would bench more/punch a wall harder type of strength. No on the latter because FKT Aizen is superior to SS Arc Aizen.
When did a massively weaker sword pierce EOS Aizen? Or is that not what you meant? I'm not quite sure what you are saying here
I don't believe I ever mentioned EOS Aizen tbh, could be wrong, but I'm mainly talking about his Pre-Timeskip versions.
You don't have to post douzens, lmao. One or two would be nice. Or just stating the examples so I can check.
Lol what convincing evidence or scans have you provided? I debunked mostly all of it, the only thing you actually brought up that I think is actually relevant is the throbbing sfx when Yammy was hit. All the other stuff you posted honestly proved nothing and I already gave me counters.
How can you debunk something by providing nothing substantial? This is getting ridiculous. Just argument from incredulity.
Easy to understand examples to explain reasoning isn't evidence, but whatever.
I don't think you understand the concept of what evidence can mean.
I never said they couldn't increase their durability. I stated this multiple times. Just like Sonido and flash step increase speed, that doesn't mean they aren't fast without them...
Yes, Shunpo/Sonido = peak speed while Hierro = peak durability, but without Hierro they are inherently less durable than without it, meaning there's no way to just assume Tosen>Grimmjow just because he cut Grimmjow's skin when Hierro wasn't even applicable.
I do not know why it's so hard for you to move on something so baseless.
Ichigo was constantly getting stronger in that fight and it still didn't do much damage to Kenpachi.
Enough to remove the eyepatch.
No, it's you who didn't comprehend my point.
At this point in time, you have no point. None.
I was arguing that their base durability wasn't fodder and completely out of their tier, for example Aizen failed to cut soul society Ichigo in half even though he didn't see Aizen's blade coming. Aizen is stronger than Kaname, and Grimmjow was stronger than that injured and tired Ichigo, so that further proves my point.
Not at all, as it holds no relevancy to the claim of Kaname being superior to Grimmjow.
It doesn't, it just makes your point irrelevant. You were bringing up how getting bodied by eyepatch Kenpachi was supposed to prove Kaname was weak, but being bodied by someone stronger than released Grimmjow doesn't prove anything. You were trying to use an anti feat which doesn't work to dismiss my claim.
You might want to rephrase this, because this is just sounding as if you're debating against something entirely different. Being bodied against Eyepatch Kenpachi is an anti-feat for the claim of Tosen>Grimmjow, you cannot just make up headcanon to deny that. The notion that Eyepatch Kenpachi bodies Grimmjow is something different, and something that's easily disputable, especially since he needed to get stronger to go up against Nnoitra mid-fight, this meant prior to Nnoitra's fight, he wouldn't have been able to body Grimmjow at all (Nnoitra-Grimmjow are closer to each other than other ranks IMO, still Nnoitra>Grimmjow tho)
I would ask for feats for your claim but I'm going to be blunt, I've read the series a few times already, for various different things, and the claim of Eyepatch Kenpachi in Hueco Mundo Arc bodying Released Grimmjow does not hold any evidence, at least not without heavily misrepresenting multiple things.
Why are you acting like a shutting down a counter has to prove my argument? You are a veteran debater, you should know disputing a counter claim doesn't have to give further evidence to my own original claim. It's like you had to add something to my perfectly logical counter because you had nothing to say but didn't want to actually feel like you had your point dismissed.
Using BS and dumb debating lessons is meaningless here. What you say may be true but frankly I do not care at this moment, I believe I entertained the nonsense long enough. When all I'm doing now is replying to posts that can easily be made several hundred words shorter, or rather, a concession would be just as applicable given you have no foundation left. Your main two pieces of evidence has been refuted. Your main counterarguments have been exposed to show a lack of knowledge within the series techniques and inner-scaling. You have nothing left Alex, so yeah, I'm going to give you responses that seem as if I have "nothing to say"
The problem is with soul society scaling Byakuya should be base Grimmjow level or lower.
No.
I'm not saying he is the best in combat, but his durability and attack power should still be top tier espadda level. I agree in an actual fight he would lose to any of the top 4. He should beat the rest though.
Then there goes your last hope. No way you can argue he loses to the Top 4 Espada, then act as if since Ichigo Post-Ulquiorra fight>Pre Ulquiorra fight solely due to him flooring Yammy for a few seconds. Can't believe this shit.
He had to use his mask though
Because Dordoni was using Nel as a factor in the battle. He forced Ichigo not through power, but through circumstances.
Then how could bankai Ichigo get absolutely stomped by base Grimmjow
Seriously, with context, Grimmjow did not either stomp Ichigo nor shown as if he was more powerful than Ichigo.
You have to at least admit Kenpachi initially being one of the stronger captains was retconned.
No.
How is full power shikai Ichigo with his getsuga not on par with Kenpachi? Kenpachi admitted he won. Unless you are saying that was a temporary power boost that actually pushed him past or at least to his bankai level strength.
Zangetsu (arguably the most powerful Zanpaukto Spirit ever) literally took ahold of Ichigo to give everything:
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I guess to play the analogy game, it's the same as Kurama taking control Naruto to beat an opponent.
Um you realizes words can be synonyms and can also have different meanings right? Being hurt can mean physical damage or pain. Injury only means physical damage. So it can be a synonym with hurt, but hurt also can be used in a way injured can't be.
a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language
Funny how you tell me to look it up but you are clearly the one who needs to do his research. FFS.
Not getting into a debate about what "hurt" or "injured" means in context, they can easily be interchangeably and in the context of Yammy actually feeling a low-level Hado spell from a Seated Officer, it doesn't matter.
That proves he can't properly use his power, it doesn't prove he goes from being strong to weaker to stronger to weaker. Like there is no reason to believe he was weaker against Grimmjow than he was against Byakuya.
Lmao this is great, you truly can be incorruptible at times.
I don't remember that entire fight, but could that not just be him learning how to fight while he is doing it?
Both his first fight and his second fight, but mostly his first fight.
Same as above but he only won due to using getsuga at the end and having help from zengetsu, so this is hardly a fair example.
But still an example to my claim lol.
Because of the mask and zangetsu again, so not a good example.
I just don't think you understand my claim at this point, my friend.
The only attack he was injured by was getsuga tenshou and even Ichigo said he wasn't severely injured. It's not like his basic attacks went from working to not working, or his getsuga went from working to not working. He just finally used a stornger attack.
It's still an example under the assumption he goes from "weaker" to "stronger" in power, or at least how the series is written that way.
Because of his VL form... Again, I'm not arguing he doesn't have latent power he isn't using.
K then. Seems there's a lot of exceptions to the rule then.
Irrelevant to what you and I are arguing. I was asking if Ichigo randomly went up and down in power, not including special attacks and forms.
Special attacks and forms that showed Ichigo randomly going up and down in power. You see there's dramatic irony in these scenes, in-verse wise speaking no one knew of this but him & his dad.
Because of Blut. And I doubt Yhwach wanted to kill him.
Still an example.
Except even Aizen said that it was a new power he gained form fighting Ulquiorra, meaning it was stronger.
How is Kenpachi not being "touted as one of the strongest Captains" means he got retconned but not the scan word-for-word saying that Ichigo was not as strong in the FKT Arc, per his Zanpaukto himself. Sweet Baby Jesus.
In fact, let's go the route that it's not retconned. Why can't the "new power" be in referenced to merging his Hollow Side within himself for reals, as in Vasto Lorde? He's shown this as a new power in EOS. Wouldn't Vasto Lorde being the new power make more sense than the belief he got stronger between arcs despite, well, everything else not supporting that?
Ichigo clearly made massive gains in each fight with the espadda and Aizen literally confirmed it. He did better in his second fight with Ulquiorra in base than he did in his first with his mask, so why would his gains from the Ulquiorra fight be less than the one from the Grimmjow fight?
Strawman. He gains, sure, and would've gained a lot post-Ulquiorra fight, if it wasn't for the fact he nearly murdered two close friends by becoming a monster. Zangetsu suppresses this as shown in the Yammy fight, the Gin fight, and his direct confirmation of doing so. Even Ichigo acknowledges this as he goes to fight Aizen, he's practically negging himself in this arc. That's why he isn't stronger, he's the exception to his own main gig and doesn't accept this until well into his Dangai Training.
My point was he has high stats, not that he is the best of the espadda.
Then dude you can't use Yammy as evidence for Ichigo Post-Ulquiorra Fight>Ichigo Pre-Ulquiorra Fight
What big fights does he go through between those fights? In the canon bleach verse there is not a single character who could have pushed Kenpachi in between that time, unless they showed up in that novel, so you are going to have to provide evidence of that.
I haven't read Spirits Forever With You fully albeit, but the Vasto Lorde tier opponent definitely pushed Kenpachi.
I didn't say he wasn't strong before, but he was weaker than less than 50% Ichigo at that point, or Unohana wouldn't have been shocked.
There is nothing that disproves R2 Ulquiorra being above the others, and he has the greatest raw feats, therefore none of the others scale to him.
You cannot ask a side to prove the non-existence of something. We know that the other three are confirmed to be capable of destroying Las Noches, while Ulquiorra is simply the only one to show an attack on-panel of that happening while his most powerful attack in R1 could only destroy about a fifth of the total surface area of Las Noches. I'd say he's above Tier due to summoning Lanza like it's nothing. But he has nothing to counter Barragan's powers nor do I believe he'd take four Captains at once with minimal to no injuries like Starrk.
The fact there was a statement saying Aizne didn't know about the form and his number disapeared should be enough clue. Also the fact he was the only one with a second release and his reatisu was stated to feel completely different. This isn't' really relevant to this debate though.
Agreed, apologies for bringing it up, you can discard both responses to this if you want, I won't pursue it any further.
That feat is better than almost all of what the other captains have.
Nope.
When was this? During that movie?
Nope.
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Aizen literally attacked Harribel because he thought she was useless, yet he chose to keep Gin. You can't argue this is out of loyalty because Hallibel was more loyal to Aizen if anything, and Aizen knew Gin wasn't loyal.
Tier outlived her usefulness yet, but being usable is not indicative of power, else wise Wonderweiss is the strongest Arrancar since he nearly took out the most powerful Shinigami. Gin could simply just act as a sniper bodyguard to Aizen, which is what he practically did for this portion of the story
Gin has better than either Hallibel or Toshrio at that point.
No.
You are using scans to back your claims, but that doesn't make the claims correct unless they outright prove what you are saying, but they don't. You are posting your scans and giving interpretation. I have been debunking your reasoning, I don't need to post scans to debunk reasoning or interpretation of scans already posted.
You can't debunk a claim without reason or logic, unless if the people you're arguing for are pre-determined in who they think is the superior debater. I'm all for arguing Bleach in-verse power scaling, as long as the other side is willing to hold up their bargain. That is all.
Acting like the number of scans you post makes you the correct one or the one not using headcanon is the real dishonest thing.
No it doesn't. You're acting like an Anti-vaxxer or a climate changer denier at this point heh. You're not debunking any of the scans, just providing the same shit in which I already addressed. This is becoming circular.
Like I don't think there is any reason or proof bankai Ichigo against base Grimmjow in their first fight should be weaker than bankai Ichigo vs Byakuya.
Suppression and depression. Helluva factor.
I'll look at that thread, but the data books are scuff as I've already explained, and there are no statements that imply Gin or Ichigo should be weaker than Toshiro.
Who said Toshiro>Ichigo? No, stop it. Gin is weaker. We had not one, but two fights detailing this. /convo
I'm not saying I think Gin's raw power is the same or above Ichigo at that point, just that as a fighter he is clearly comparable.
Bruh. You gotta stop it with these claims saying he's above the Espada or most Captains in power and/or stats.
Hitsugaya wasn't in his right mind and didn't care. He wanted Gin dead and was thirsty for revenge, Gin didn't care about Hitsugaya at all and had no beef with him. One wanted something and didn't care what he would lose, and the other wanted something else that would have been hindered if he got in trouble there. Not comparable. That fight absolutely can't be used to compare Gin's full power, period.
Then nothing can be used to compare Gin's full power because you just described Gin's entire fighting persona.
Ok, that's possible... I don't think it's the case, but it is possible and would only help my argument here, lol.
I mean not really. You might look at this as if it's a battle of where Gin stands, I look at this as a battle of where Bleach stands as a whole among the debating community.
But no seriously, it's always a fun debating you on Bleach, no matter how annoying it can get. Now I'm off to sleep, GN.
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