Gilgamesh vs The Living Tribunal

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VarricPatermann

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#1  Edited By VarricPatermann
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Vs.

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RULES:

- Both at their strongest

- In charakter

- Distance: Irrelevant

- Location: Irrelevant

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Chad_Duby

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Who is the first combatant?

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Yamiyodare

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The spite wins.

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eri123

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Thing

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deactivated-5d755a684b00b

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zgtfreak

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Considering how unimpressive LT is, he gets potentially blitzed, chained by Enkidu, and deleted by Slash Emperor (or anything else of good potency), regardless of superior cosmology. Hell, I doubt Marvel's cosmology even surpasses the Nasuverse after new info relating to it.

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RuneKngThor

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Lol I think this is spite.

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ProfessorRespect

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LT win

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deactivated-5e0e83bb0dbb5

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In my book, LT spites, but it could get argued otherwise.

@zgtfreak LT can indeedly get described as unimpressive. He is merely a function to show how imressive characters are- That's also a reason for his jobbing.

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SmoothSanta

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EcoBlitz

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@smoothsanta: a series of stories by kinoki Nasu. He does the fate series along with other stuff. That’s the Nasu verse

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deactivated-5ebb616323ddd

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EineFaust

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Do you understand that Gil is not even planetary?

This is not even spite.LT murderstomps even if LT is only universal.

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MCU-Defender333

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Do you understand that Gil is not even planetary?

This is not even spite.LT murderstomps even if LT is only universal.

No disrespect, but I don't think you understand how powerful the strongest versions of Gil are.

CCC Gilgamesh can casually fire planet-busting nukes, can travel across galaxies in short amounts of time with Vamana (sp?) and can end the universe with Ea.

Mystic Codes Gilgamesh is much stronger still. According to the lore, he's easily multiversal and (like higher cosmic beings) transcends time, so issues for things like 'speed' are irrelevant.

I wish I could tell you more, but I need to do some more reading on him. That's what I do know.

For now I still think the LT wins but this isn't a spite.

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EineFaust

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#15  Edited By EineFaust

@mcu-defender333:

Do you understand CCC Gil is in virtual reality aka Moon Cell?

And,Do you understand that pararell worlds in Type-Moon is earth based concept? The concept of pararell world was founded and created by Zelretch who is the creator of 第二魔法(whose law is creation and maintain of pararell world). In Type-moon Each planet has their own law. You can't apply the law of earth into other planet and put Gil above multiversal.

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MCU-Defender333

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#16  Edited By MCU-Defender333

@einefaust said:

@mcu-defender333:

Do you understand CCC Gil is in virtual reality aka Moon Cell?

And,Do you understand that pararell worlds in Type-Moon is earth based concept? The concept of pararell world was founded and created by Zelretch who is the creator of 第二魔法(whose law is creation and maintain of pararell world). In Type-moon Each planet has their own law. You can't apply the law of earth into other planet and put Gil above multiversal.

@zgtfreak I would explain more but feel as though your knowledge surpasses mine on Gil's stronger forms.

(I'm by no means asking you to jump in and debate this, just thought we'd all appreciate your two cents on Gil at his strongest)

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deactivated-5e0e83bb0dbb5

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@mcu-defender333: And because both of them transcend time, transcending time isn't a quantifiable feat. Where is one more impressive than the other? LOL. Gilgamesh never even destroyed something as impressive as Multi-Eternity (Destructive power only). Beyond time and infinite speed is not a quanfitiable feat anymore, since Doom could enter the beyond-realm with literally just human level power. There are thousand examples of these. Fictional authors are idiots when it comes to science, so timeless=Infinite speed is pretty vague to argue, when it's not stated explicit.

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zgtfreak

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#19  Edited By zgtfreak

@einefaust: CCC Gil was originally 8-D multiversal (still far below LT). Here's his old RT. He should be far above this now (quantum infinite-D), due to the Nasuverse now using a Type 3 Multiverse. Gilgamesh stomps LT regardless due to his abilities. He's fast enough to fight omnipresent Moon Cell BB and Kiara across space-time. (Speed feat, as transcending space-time isn't a power feat without context). He is far above the Moon Cell (should be quantum infinite-D due to holding all of the Type 3 Multiverse's possibilities), has one shotted Moon Cell beings, has broken the Moon Cell's laws, has far more abilities than any of Marvel that are even above most of Umineko, ect. The Moon Cell being virtual is a bad argument, as it can effect reality. And Gilgamesh left the Moon Cell and went into reality, despite being created by the Moon Cell.

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EineFaust

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@zgtfreak:

Do you know what i have said in this thread.

Pararell worlds(Type 3 Multiverse) in Type-Moon is earth based concept. The concept of pararell world was founded and created by Zelretch who is the creator of 第二魔法(whose law is creation and maintain of pararell world).

In Type-moon verse, Each planet has their own law.(consider God from another planet and imaginary trees.) You can't apply the law of earth into other planet and put Gil above multiversal. So, Type Moon universe in totality may not be type 3 multiverse.

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zgtfreak

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#21  Edited By zgtfreak

@einefaust: Wrong. We see parallel universes entirely, such as when the Ultimate Ones invaded the Earth in Notes. Velber is a foreign entity that is effected by parallel timelines, ect. There are multiple versions of the Moon Cell (aka not the Earth) in parallel worlds as well. All Zelretch did was discover parallel worlds via the Second Magic. It is not restricted to the Earth by any means.

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EineFaust

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#22  Edited By EineFaust

@zgtfreak:

Do you understand that Zelretch's magic(The Second Law) is control of pararell world(平衡世界の運営), not finding of pararell world(平衡世界の発見)

https://typemoon.wiki.cre.jp/wiki/魔法#.E7.AC.AC.E4.BA.8C.E9.AD.94.E6.B3.95.E3.80.8E.E4.B8.A6.E8.A1.8C.E4.B8.96.E7.95.8C.E3.81.AE.E9.81.8B.E5.96.B6.E3.80.8F

In Mahoyo, It is said that "Second Law admitted many(Parerell world)"

So, It is implied that the concept of Pararell world is peculiar in Earth based cosmology.

We can say that there may be concept of Pararell world in another planet. But we can't say that the concept of pararell world is fundamental in entire Type Moon versse. It depends planet to planet about what cosmology is in each planet.

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zgtfreak

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#23  Edited By zgtfreak

@einefaust: He can create parallel worlds, but parallel worlds are also made on their own. (Insane TLDR incoming:) https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Quantum_Time-Lock

We can say that there may be concept of Pararell world in another planet. But we can't say that the concept of pararell world is fundamental in entire Type Moon versse. It depends planet to planet about what cosmology is in each planet.

Velber is literally traveling across the universe and isn't even a planet, yet it exist in parallel worlds.

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EineFaust

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@zgtfreak:

Your statement doesn't debunk my statemnent.

Law of Humanity(人理、probably The First Law) and The Second Law are peculiar in Earth based cosmology.

You must prove that Quantum cosmology is fundamental and common in Every Planet and entire TM universe because it depends on planet to planet about what cosmology is.

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zgtfreak

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#25  Edited By zgtfreak

@einefaust: Literally Velber traveling across the universe is effected by and exist in different timelines, and it isn't even a planet.

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REQUIEMCROSS

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While Enkudu's effect is sealing gods, was it shown binding a being on the same level of the living tribunal?

I'm not aware of his feats on CCC, I can't find a translated version. T_T

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deactivated-5d755a684b00b

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@einefaust said:

@zgtfreak:

Your statement doesn't debunk my statemnent.

Law of Humanity(人理、probably The First Law) and The Second Law are peculiar in Earth based cosmology.

You must prove that Quantum cosmology is fundamental and common in Every Planet and entire TM universe because it depends on planet to planet about what cosmology is.

any fiction using the TIMELINES model for their multiverse is quantum mechanical. and infinite dimensional. (meaning any fiction using timelines is f*cking infinite dimensional by definition).

yes, even star vs the forces of evil and adventure time are both infinite-dimensional. SURPRISE.

how the f*ck does a universe even multiple into many timelines if it has no many possible but contradicting alternate quantum states? that turn into different universes from the same configurations that diverge at a certain timeframe?

of course it is quantum mechanics. so long as there are timelines, even if quantum is not directly mentioned, timelines is a quantum idea. even if a fiction claims that its multiple timeline cosmology is not using quantum mechanics, it demands the same type of logic that quantum mechanics (the MWI interpretation) offers. so its still quantum, albeit renamed.

unless there are alternate scientific theories outside of quantum mechanics that purport to timelines (IE, timelines are a family of related space-time-continua universes that contain entire histories that diverge from each other like branches). i have no idea what you are talking about.

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zgtfreak

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#28  Edited By zgtfreak

@norsewinter: any fiction using the TIMELINES model for their multiverse is quantum mechanical. and infinite dimensional. (meaning any fiction using timelines is f*cking infinite dimensional by definition).

Many fictions flat out contradict infinite-D despite timelines though, such as Madoka Magica, Digimon, pre-Extella Nasuverse, ect. So I can't say that infinite-D applies to every timeline verse, as the writers contradict infinite-D with finite-D statements since they don't know what they are talking about. Also I wouldn't consider a Type 1 Multiverse infinite-D. We've also got things like M-theory, ect. They use quantum mechanics, but aren't infinite-D. (Correct me on any of this if I am wrong).

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EineFaust

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#29  Edited By EineFaust

@zgtfreak:

It only proves that Velver has pararell world view or Velver had come before the second law was created, doesn't it?

Anyway, you must prove that pararell world view is fundamental and common in entire TM verse and The Second Law is not creation by Zelretch.

You know ,even in TM earth, it depends on myth to myth about what worldview is in each myth, don't you? So, you must prove pararell world view is only and common world view in entire TM universe.

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zgtfreak

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#30  Edited By zgtfreak

@einefaust: It only proves that Velver has pararell world view or Velver had come before the second law was created, doesn't it?

VelBER is not a planet. It does not have its own reality marble. It is literally just traveling in space. And the Second Magic has always existed, as magic originates from Akasha, the Root of all creation. Akasha herself (Void Shiki) explains this. Hell, the effects of branching timelines will eventually destroy the solar system due to the sheer volume of data from humans alone:

Fate/Extella states that the energy required to account for the ceaseless proliferation of unnecessary worlds exists nowhere within this "Dimension" (次元, Jigen?), and that the Dimension itself may eventually exceed capacity if propagation persists unchecked. Furthermore, absent of culling processes, the Earth can persist at its present level of civilization for only another century before the Solar System dissolves beneath the sheer volume of the data produced by humankind.

Ancient gods who are not even on planets exist in different timelines as well, such as Saver and Amaterasu. Hell, look at this even:

No Caption Provided

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EineFaust

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@zgtfreak:

It is mistranslation.

Tamamo has not referd to "multiverse".

Anyway,In TM verse, each planet(each world) has different world view.

Why can you say that pararell world view is common and fundamental?

You must refer to worldview of another planet which hasn't been even told,don't you?

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zgtfreak

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@einefaust: It is mistranslation.

No proof of this. VS Battles said that. Someone I know who speaks Japanese said a mistranslation is bullshit, because there is only 1 word in Japanese that specifically relates to multiverse to the point a mistranslation shouldn't be possible.

Anyway,In TM verse, each planet(each world) has different world view.

Why can you say that pararell world view is common and fundamental?

Every planet is effected by timelines (proof of this via the actions of Types in Notes) because timelines are a universal event. And Velber and its Arks of Stars are all space-ships that exist outside of any planet, yet they are effected by timelines.

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zgtfreak

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@einefaust: Quantum Time-Locks (霊子記録固定帯クォンタム・タイムロック, Reishi Kiroku Kotei-Taikuontamu taimurokku?, lit. "Spiritron Record Anchoring Bands") are a type of "universal" event

"universal" event

Also more proof of this is that the Moon Cell doesn't even exist in some timelines, such as Tsukihime's:

Summary:

1) Tsukihime would fall apart if the Mooncell existed

2) Extra Arc is not related to Tsukihime's history (so she's not a dimension-hopper from Tsukihime-land, I guess)

https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Berserker_(Fate/Extra_Rani_route)#References

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Wrathofthebrad

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Even maximum wanked Gilgamesh gets stomped.

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EineFaust

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@zgtfreak:

Ok, I confirmed japanese wiki.

Indeed, there should be 編纂事象 and 剪定事象 in universal scale.

But, How is Gilgamesh multiversal despite Kiara(who is probably stronger than ultimate one) is only all powerful in solar system scale?

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zgtfreak

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@einefaust: But, How is Gilgamesh multiversal despite Kiara(who is probably stronger than ultimate one) is only all powerful in solar system scale?

Kiara grows to the size of a solar system, but her size is unrelated to her power level. It would be like saying Gilgamesh isn't even building level since he is the size of a human. Her power in CCC is multiversal due to absorbing BB and controlling the Moon Cell.

Also, Kiara is a spec of non-existent dust in the presence of an Ultimate One. Hell, the strongest non-omnipotent in the entire Nasuverse is an Ultimate One (Arcueid). Actually, there is a thread going on about that right now. <

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EineFaust

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@zgtfreak:

Kiara hasn't been said to be multiversal. She has been said only to be able to solar system easily.

About Arcueid, I can't help saying huge BS. Indeed,Max Arcueid has been said to be stronger than earth bound gods. But, She hasn't been said to be stronger than Kiara.

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Supermanfan1938

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LT is a jobber. Thing wins.

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zgtfreak

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#39  Edited By zgtfreak

@einefaust: Kiara was never stated to be solar system level ever. No one in the Nasuverse has solar system statements.

About Arcueid, I can't help saying huge BS. Indeed,Max Arcueid has been said to be stronger than earth bound gods. But, She hasn't been said to be stronger than Kiara.

CCC Gilgamesh, Moon Cell BB, and Amaterasu were all compared to base form Arcueid that was weakened even further due to being a Servant. The strongest characters in Fate were compared to her weakened base form. Hell, Nasu himself stated that Arcueid is the strongest in the verse. You underestimate the Ultimate Ones; and Arcueid is the strongest Ultimate One of them all.

I said it in that thread I linked and I'll say it here... Fate has no business challenging Tsukihime. It is a stronger series.

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EineFaust

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@zgtfreak:

She is said to be as strong as bodhisattva.

Bodhisattva can easily control solar system and is multi-galaxy level.

https://www26.atwiki.jp/tmranking/pages/217.html

At least, Kiara can't be universal.

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Lsoon23

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Honestly with how pathetic the Living Tribunal is he probably trips over and dies before Gil can do anything.

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zgtfreak

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#42  Edited By zgtfreak

@einefaust: https://www26.atwiki.jp/tmranking/pages/217.html

This is Fate/GO Kiara, not CCC. It is literally talking about Fate/GO Kiara here:

ビーストⅢ/R。

随喜自在第三外法快楽天を名乗る名の新しい天(かみ)であり、『FGO』では人類悪の一つとして形を成した。

It even mentions Kiara as a Beast, aka not CCC Kiara:

ビーストⅢ/R。

GO Kiara does not have control of the Moon Cell. GO Kiara is baseline multiversal since she is compared to Kama, who can destroy an infinite universe. CCC Kiara is far above that. Also the Extra incarnations of characters are generally far above their main timeline counterparts in terms of power. This is one of the reasons everyone separates CCC Gilgamesh and normal Gilgamesh.

Q: In Nasu's work (Kara no Kyoukai, Tsukihime, Fate, DDD) Who's the top three strongest characters?

A: Magical Amber, Neco Arc, and Tiger. Well, not really.

Seriously, it's Arcueid, "Ryougi Shiki", and primordial demons.(Not counting Servants)

https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Arcueid_Brunestud#References

Her power, “The stage is the Moon, so all targets have their power reduced to a sixth of their usual.” would be extremely useful against other similar cheat-tier Servants.

It’s a conceptual numerical alteration, so it is unavoidable when on the Moon. Even the Moon Cell transformed version of BB would be limited by it.

https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Berserker_(Fate/Extra_Rani_route)#References

Despite her 1/6 reduction ability, she is being compared to Gilgamesh by being a cheat-tier servant. Originally, only CCC Gilgamesh has this title; yet weakened base Arcueid has it as well now. Literally anyone familiar with the Nasuverse will tell you that comparing Fate characters to the Ultimate Ones (let alone Arcueid herself) is a bad joke. Ultimate Ones are well known to be above Divine Spirits.

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etriel

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#44  Edited By etriel

I mean Living Tribunal is superior to Gil, in terms of linear power at his peak, but in terms of the metaphysics axis, LT is no conceptually different from the Aristotelian Abstractions that Gil can transmute, destroy and distort.

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WSCKaidou

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Living jobber stomps. Gilg is fodder here, spite?

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bdelloidgrain2

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Living Tribunal wins, assuming he is not jobbing.

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GodGate

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#50  Edited By GodGate

Hmm aight, I can see Gilgamesh taking this fight if he's fighting at full potential. I'm not talking about standing around and lookin arrogant, I'm talking about fully using his irrelevant speed(Via Vimana since it scales to his own thought speed which should be immeasurable as well as that's what his movements are and logic dictates that your thoughts move faster than your body. Note: I'm referencing to him moving thousands of light years in a instant with a NP and him by himself moving in STOPPED time) in full sync with his Shaq imuru NP, which basically would grant him omnipotence, letting him know every move the LT would make and how to exactly counter it. This would stall the living tribunal's ability to use hax on him as Gilgamesh's speed would be just too much for the old man.

And for how does he wins? Simple, EA. It's a reality warping weapon created by an abstract entity, meaning it would probably exist outside of the LT's realm of hax. Gilgamesh doesn't need to worry about AP either as the weapon warps reality to rupture anything he desires through any means necessary even if it has to generate enough force to destroy the marvel multiverse.

Also, isn't the LT a representation of the abrahamic God? This makes this a potential easy fight as Gilgamesh could use Enkidu's chains to just hold this EX rank divinity being in place.