Geralt (Witcher) vs Talion (LotR)

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sirfizzwhizz

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#1  Edited By sirfizzwhizz
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Standard Gear.

Standard abilities.

No Prep.

Death or KO.

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The_Fub

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#2  Edited By The_Fub

Oooooo

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emperorthanos-

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#3  Edited By emperorthanos-  Moderator  Online

Been done. Talion without too much trouble.

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deactivated-5d6bc0cd36084

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Been done. Geralt as of Shadow of Mordor, but I haven't played War yet.

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BruceVeidt

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Talion is not canon, therefore you shouldn't put LOTR next to his name.

Maybe SOM, or SOW.

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Vertigo-

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the_wspanialy

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#7  Edited By the_wspanialy

Been done.

Could go either way.

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sirfizzwhizz

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@bruceveidt: Pretty sure the game is called Lord of the Rings in the title mate.

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KingCrimson

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Talion murderstomps as of Shadow of War. Too many hax abilities.

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deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00

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Been done, Talion destroys.

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helloman

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Talion wins.

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deactivated-5d6bc0cd36084

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What did Talion actually do in War to warrant this being labelled a stomp?

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ParagonNate

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@lubub55 said:

Been done. Geralt as of Shadow of Mordor, but I haven't played War yet.

How is Geralt beating Shadow of Mordor Talion?

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deactivated-5d6bc0cd36084

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@paragonnate: Superior physicals and skill, equipment/magic advantage and the ability to counter just about every one of Talion's abilities.

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KingCrimson

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@lubub55 said:

What did Talion actually do in War to warrant this being labelled a stomp?

Got a host of new abilities, including but not limited to being able to teleport enemies to himself, have his wraith spirit attack/defend separately to him, amp his speed so much that everybody else around him seems to all but stand still while he blitzes around them.

He can turn his sword into a spectral glaive giving him better range in melee, has AoE attacks to match Geralt's, can freeze enemies with ice magic, explosive arrows etc.

On top of that, he conquered all of Mordor, solo'd the Nazgul, beat the Witch King in single combat and defeated a Balrog with the help of Carnan.

He's basically SoM Talion on steroids.

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ParagonNate

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@kingcrimson: If I'm remembering right he had a few of those in the lastgame.

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KingCrimson

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@paragonnate: He had the AoE blasts, a variant of the ice magic that was more like a stun and maybe explosive arrows.

The rest is all new though.

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ParagonNate

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@kingcrimson: also, it would be more accurate to say that Carnan beat a Balrog with Talion's help. He pretty much played keep away and shot at it when he could. She did most of the heavy lifting.

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kgb725

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deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00

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@kgb725: Those are his only source of feats as he isn't a part of Tolkiens legendarium.

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KingCrimson

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KingCrimson

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@kgb725: There are almost zero action cutscenes in the game, so gameplay is the only place to draw feats from.

Also, I don't see listing his abilities as gameplay mechanics. They aren't dependent on the player - the devs gave him those powers.

It's not the same as saying he can tank hits from the Balrog because he has a health bar.

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BruceVeidt

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@sirfizzwhizz: it's not.

It's Middle Earth Shadow of Mordor/War.

LoTR is the story of Frodo and the Followship. It starts when he gets yhe ring and ends when he leaves Middle Earth with Gandalf.

Everything else shouldn't be called LOTR but Middle Earth, especially something non canon like Talion.

I've also seen battles here like: "Elder Scrolls vs LOTR", or the like, this implies only the armies present in the 3 books/movies, yet they include stuff from other Tolkien books, therefore it should be Middle Earth, not LOTR.

Hope u got my point.

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Thoromdil

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#24  Edited By Thoromdil

@bruceveidt: not quite. Large part of Tolkien's legendarium happens outside of Middle Earth of LotR, for example most of Silmarillion or the children of Hurin, so calling things that do not happen in the books of LotR "Middle Earth" is not solving the problem. Just call it Tolkienverse or Tolkien's legendarium or whatever. Just put a "Tolkien" in there and you know exactly what universe is it. Shadows of Mordor and War do not take place in Tolkien's universe. There are large numbers of characters, places and even entire races there that do not exist in Tolkien's universe. It's a game loosely based on Tolkien's works. Nothing more.

As for the thread, Talion stomps. Witcher is much more down to the ground then he is. Talion is fighting entire armies, single handedly challenges whole country of monsters, he duels demigods, cursed deathlords and demons on a tuesday. Witcher fights wood spirits, werewolves and human-sized monsters. When he occasionally encounters a larger threat like a dragon you can clearly tell it's not an easy fight for him. These characters are in different body-weight in case of speed, strenght, feats, everything.

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ParagonNate

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@lubub55 said:

@paragonnate: Superior physicals and skill, equipment/magic advantage and the ability to counter just about every one of Talion's abilities.

Superior physicals, doubtful. Talion trades blows with massive Uruks no problem. Geralt is strong, but he isn't massively superhuman, a circus strong man is stronger than him. Agility, nope, Celebrimbor laughs at Geralts agility, and since Talion and Celebrimbor are one and the same now, so does Talion. Speed, they have comparable speed feats of cutting arrows out of the air. Neither is really faster than the other.

Skill, eh, I'm not seeing it. Geralt is one of the best swordsman in his universe, and one of the best Witcher's as well. But Celebrimbor has been shown to be inhumanly skilled, walking through orcs like thy are standing still, and engaging Sauron himself. I highly doubt that Geralt is better.

Geralt has more versatile gear sure. But he rarely uses it in a random fight, he relies largely on his swords, skill, and signs. Magic is useful, but no he doesn't have a ready counter for everything Talion can do.

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BruceVeidt

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reikai

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@paragonnate: And Geralt deals with vampires, ogres, trolls, and other creatures far stronger than anything Talion has fought. Like the Kraken. Geralt still wins. His enemies have always been more powerful and dangerous.

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kgb725

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@kingcrimson: even if he can use all of them he can only use certain ones which may not even work on Geralt

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ParagonNate

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@reikai said:

@paragonnate: And Geralt deals with vampires, ogres, trolls, and other creatures far stronger than anything Talion has fought. Like the Kraken. Geralt still wins. His enemies have always been more powerful and dangerous.

He deals with them by exploiting weaknesses and preparing ahead of time as much as he can. On top of that. Sauron>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything Geralt has ever fought. You really don't want to go down the path of comparing their adversaries here.

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deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f

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@reikai said:

@paragonnate: And Geralt deals with vampires, ogres, trolls, and other creatures far stronger than anything Talion has fought. Like the Kraken. Geralt still wins. His enemies have always been more powerful and dangerous.

He deals with them by exploiting weaknesses and preparing ahead of time as much as he can. On top of that. Sauron>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything Geralt has ever fought. You really don't want to go down the path of comparing their adversaries here.

...has talion fought Sauron in direct combat anyway? Its not like even book version Sauron was that powerful either.

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kgb725

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@paragonnate: Is sauron even that powerful ? He's lost multiple times for a reason

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ParagonNate

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@paragonnate said:
@reikai said:

@paragonnate: And Geralt deals with vampires, ogres, trolls, and other creatures far stronger than anything Talion has fought. Like the Kraken. Geralt still wins. His enemies have always been more powerful and dangerous.

He deals with them by exploiting weaknesses and preparing ahead of time as much as he can. On top of that. Sauron>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything Geralt has ever fought. You really don't want to go down the path of comparing their adversaries here.

...has talion fought Sauron in direct combat anyway? Its not like even book version Sauron was that powerful either.

Celebrimbor did. And book Sauron =/= Shadow of Mordorverse Sauron. Celebrimbor and Talion are one and the same now. The in game text talks about how The Wraith has enhanced Talion beyond what a Man can normally do, in every way. Effecting his physicals, abilities, even skill.

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reikai

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@paragonnate: And Talion doesn't prep and exploit weaknesses and environmental hazards? Because I'm quite certain he does. Also King of the Wild Hunt >>> SoW Sauron.

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@jardinain2 said:
@paragonnate said:
@reikai said:

@paragonnate: And Geralt deals with vampires, ogres, trolls, and other creatures far stronger than anything Talion has fought. Like the Kraken. Geralt still wins. His enemies have always been more powerful and dangerous.

He deals with them by exploiting weaknesses and preparing ahead of time as much as he can. On top of that. Sauron>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything Geralt has ever fought. You really don't want to go down the path of comparing their adversaries here.

...has talion fought Sauron in direct combat anyway? Its not like even book version Sauron was that powerful either.

Celebrimbor did. And book Sauron =/= Shadow of Mordorverse Sauron. Celebrimbor and Talion are one and the same now. The in game text talks about how The Wraith has enhanced Talion beyond what a Man can normally do, in every way. Effecting his physicals, abilities, even skill.

Sauron, who probably has even less feats than in the books? gotcha.

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TheVivas

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@kgb725: So because Sauron has lost that means he’s not that powerful? I guess Darkseid and Thanos aren’t either then, right? I mean they lost for a reason.

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kgb725

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@thevivas: They almost never lose in physical combat

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TheVivas

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@kgb725: Doesn’t matter. They can’t be that powerful because they lost for a reason.

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kgb725

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@thevivas: no need to be salty because sauron loses every war

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TheVivas

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@kgb725: No need to be salty because you got called out on your ignorant logic.

Meanwhile Thanos and Darkseid are still not powerful because they lost. GG.

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Vertigo-

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kgb725

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@thevivas: I've done nothing to indicate I was salty in any shape or form.

That's clearly not what I said so no need to continue crying about it.

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KingCrimson

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@kgb725: It's game mechanics that he can only use a few at a time - there literally aren't enough buttons on the controller to use them all at once - the player can switch between them at any time.

What wouldn't work on Geralt?

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KingCrimson

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@blackestnight93: I rarely used it to be honest so I didn't notice it was missing.

Does it do the same thing as Elven Wrath?

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Vertigo-

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@blackestnight93: I rarely used it to be honest so I didn't notice it was missing.

Does it do the same thing as Elven Wrath?

Nope. Summons 5 of those undead Gondorian soldiers to back you up.

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KingCrimson

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@blackestnight93: Awesome.

Loved the ending of that game. Bold move to turn Talion into a ringwraith but it was so badass lol.

I was hoping to get the chance to kill Celebrimbor to be honest.

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TheVivas

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@kgb725: It’s okay, no need to be salty just because Thanos and Darkseid are weak. You don’t have to continue crying about it.

I quoted you word for word. You want to add liar onto the list, next to ignorant and salty?

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the_wspanialy

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#47  Edited By the_wspanialy

@kingcrimson said:
@lubub55 said:

What did Talion actually do in War to warrant this being labelled a stomp?

Got a host of new abilities, including but not limited to being able to teleport enemies to himself, have his wraith spirit attack/defend separately to him, amp his speed so much that everybody else around him seems to all but stand still while he blitzes around them.

Teleporting enemies is a neat trick and can be a gamechanger.

Geralt has more than enough feats against multiple opponents. Plus Celebrimbor separates from Talion's body only for a few seconds, it's not like Geralt will have to fight two enemies for the entire fight.

Good beceuse Geralt's speed trumps Talion's baseline speed. He can also use Yrden or Heliotrope to close the speed difference (if there is any to begin with)

@kingcrimson said:

He can turn his sword into a spectral glaive giving him better range in melee, has AoE attacks to match Geralt's, can freeze enemies with ice magic, explosive arrows etc.

Still blockable.

True about AoE attacks.

Geralt's natural durability and Quenn.

@kingcrimson said:

On top of that, he conquered all of Mordor, solo'd the Nazgul, beat the Witch King in single combat and defeated a Balrog with the help of Carnan.

Aside from the prologue, when he fought nameless Nazguls, he always had Eltariel at his side whenever facing Nazguls. And she's no pushover. As a matter of fact she outright saved his life during the fight with Helm Hammerhand. And she constantly provides him with protection against their magic (I swear to God, Celebrimbor is Galadriel's biggest fanboy).

There's also a fact that the Nazguls were never depicted (neither in the Tolkien's lore nor in SoW) as even skilled fighters. Fear was always their greatest weapon. Aside from their powers they have nothing going for them.

Unless I missed something, Talion beating the Witch-King makes as much sense as Captain America KOing Hulk and remains one of the biggest plot holes. At the begining of the game the Witch-King subdued Talion with no effort whatsoever. Either Isildur's Ring is much more powerful than Celebrimbor's spirit (doubtful) or we're dealing with major inconsitency here.

Someone has already pointed out Talion's role in the fight with Tar Goroth. That whole boss battle was extremely disappointing.

@paragonnate said:
@lubub55 said:

@paragonnate: Superior physicals and skill, equipment/magic advantage and the ability to counter just about every one of Talion's abilities.

Superior physicals, doubtful. Talion trades blows with massive Uruks no problem. Geralt is strong, but he isn't massively superhuman, a circus strong man is stronger than him. Agility, nope, Celebrimbor laughs at Geralts agility, and since Talion and Celebrimbor are one and the same now, so does Talion. Speed, they have comparable speed feats of cutting arrows out of the air. Neither is really faster than the other.

Geralt blocks two handed strike from Imlerith, is capable of cutting in half a grown man in plate armor, beats a rock troll with his bare hands, picks up and swings a werewolf et. cet. And no, a circus strong man is not stronger than Geralt:

Loading Video...

When scalling from Numa, Geralt is capable of breaking a bull's neck, bending iron bars et.cet.

Yes, Geralt's agility is better than Talion's. He gets direct scalling from Ciri.

If twelve years old Ciri without going through witcher's mutations is capable of doing so while blindfolded, Geralt can do this and much, much more.

All Celebrimbor does is increase Talion's speed and provides a double jump. That does not make him more agile.

@paragonnate said:

Skill, eh, I'm not seeing it. Geralt is one of the best swordsman in his universe, and one of the best Witcher's as well. But Celebrimbor has been shown to be inhumanly skilled, walking through orcs like thy are standing still, and engaging Sauron himself. I highly doubt that Geralt is better.

Beceuse slaughtering orcs is such an accomplishment...

Talion has never fought any true swordmaster (I'm not counting those "combat experts" created by Nemesis System) less alone someone of Geralt's caliber. Geralt fough and defeated established swordsmans. It's that simple.

Sauron has never been depicted as skilled physical combatant and his track reckord is abysmall. Quoting @reikai:

@reikai said:

@paragonnate: Also King of the Wild Hunt >>> SoW Sauron.

Sauron's power was always tied to his hollistic picture and what he represents in the grand scheme of things, rather than to his martial prowess.

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@paragonnate:

Superior physicals, doubtful.

In every category besides from durability, Geralt holds a solid physical advantage.

Talion trades blows with massive Uruks no problem.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

This is significantly more impressive when we see that strigas can snap silver chains without leverage, jump through roofs and rip off arms.

Geralt is strong, but he isn't massively superhuman

By both feats and implication, yes he is.

a circus strong man is stronger than him.

This is an outright lie. Numa was cheating by using strength-enhancing potions and when either he stops or Geralt starts, Geralt wins despite Numa being significantly larger than him.

Here are three separate sources stating that witchers have enhanced strength. Bear in mind that Geralt was selected for extra mutations, meaning his strength should be augmented even further, and in Blood & Wine his mutations are enhanced even further.

Loading Video...

This is backed by feats too. Adam Pangratt is clearly much taller and bulkier than Geralt and clearly has more mass. At the point I've linked in the video Adam confirms that he is always exercising his strength because of a past experience he had, which makes him a peak human in the Witcherverse. Geralt then defeats him in arm wrestling. If Geralt was only peak human, he would have lost it because Adam would also be a peak human but with more mass. And Pangratt confirms afterwards that Geralt did this with strength, rather than with technique.

Agility, nope, Celebrimbor laughs at Geralts agility, and since Talion and Celebrimbor are one and the same now, so does Talion.

Loading Video...

Bam, Geralt is more acrobatic.

Bam, Geralt has climbing feats as well.

And bam, Geralt can flip mid-combat.

Speed, they have comparable speed feats of cutting arrows out of the air. Neither is really faster than the other.

No Caption Provided

https://youtu.be/MJGrLaRe2-o?t=1m19s

Yes, Geralt is clearly faster. Geralt is a much better arrow timer, seeing as he can casually deflect arrows whilst running and without looking and can deflect all the shots of four Scoia'tael members shooting at him at the same time.

And that's just reflexes. By scaling off Letho, who Geralt has shown himself to be faster than, he can blitz arrow timers and people who move at blur speeds before either can react.

I'm not even going to try and show all of Geralt's countless blur speed/FTE feats, so I'll just show this one. Geralt runs so fast he's illustrated as barely a gust of wind as he chases down a hunter with a massive headstart, as it's implied that his movement speed is as great as his combat speed. Considering that he's already fought as a blur within the context of this comic and has numerous other feats of not just fighting as a blur but also as moving as one I think it's clear he's a lot faster than Talion in combat speed, reflexes and movement speed.

No Caption Provided

But if that's not enough, Geralt was capable of keeping up with and beating Dettlaff who leaves Talion in the dust when it comes to speed.

Skill, eh, I'm not seeing it. Geralt is one of the best swordsman in his universe, and one of the best Witcher's as well.

And considering the skill average is much higher in Geralt's universe, that's very important.

But Celebrimbor has been shown to be inhumanly skilled

So has Geralt, and Celebrimbor's experience doesn't bring much to the table. Dettlaff was over four hundred years old and had vastly better physicals than Geralt, and was still beaten.

walking through orcs like thy are standing still

You don't think Geralt can take down orcs? He does it with impressive fodder like Wild Hunt warriors, witch hunters and Nilfgaardian soldiers at their war camp.

Geralt has more versatile gear sure. But he rarely uses it in a random fight

He uses his gear all the time. Just look at trailers for the game. Especially when he's fighting supernatural opponents, which he will know because of his medallion.

Magic is useful, but no he doesn't have a ready counter for everything Talion can do.

What do you think Talion has that can't be countered?

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sirfizzwhizz

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@sirfizzwhizz: it's not.

It's Middle Earth Shadow of Mordor/War.

LoTR is the story of Frodo and the Followship. It starts when he gets yhe ring and ends when he leaves Middle Earth with Gandalf.

Everything else shouldn't be called LOTR but Middle Earth, especially something non canon like Talion.

I've also seen battles here like: "Elder Scrolls vs LOTR", or the like, this implies only the armies present in the 3 books/movies, yet they include stuff from other Tolkien books, therefore it should be Middle Earth, not LOTR.

Hope u got my point.

I get what your saying but the franchise is LotR whether canon or not. Arguing if its canon is another thing altogether.

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BruceVeidt

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@sirfizzwhizz: the franchise is not LOTR.

Otherwise the Hobbit movies would have LOTR in the title. Completely different storylines, same as this game.