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#451 Edited by TheBalance (823 posts) - - Show Bio

@tetsukage: heavy denial huh?

1. Yhwach only knew that because he was aware of Aizen's ability, and noticed his perception of time was off, he wasn't even using the Almighty. And even when he was using it, he was still fooled by the illusions and couldn't break it. Plus you're now comparing the sharingan to all seeing eyes?

2. It wouldn't work on Ichigo because Kyoka Suigetsu was already released before he showed up. He didn't meet the activation requirements which is seeing the shikai release so he's considered an unconnected soul.

3. Sent via sight. If Stark lays eyes on it's release. it's over.

Sorry, I had faith that you'd be able to accept facts if stated plainly, but you're really not worth wasting time on.

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#452 Edited by deactivated-5c9e122a6bc32 (2290 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebalance:

Denial is what you're doing, I have more evidence/showings that agree with me.

Yhwach has zero resistance or ways to see through illusions yet he did.

Still didn't work on Ichigo that's a limitation, you've shown nothing to suggest the shairgan can't see through it, when the Sharigan is made to see through attacks, illusions, even hand to hand combat that's what the shairgan does. If Yhwach who has no way of seeing through it can and Ichigo who has no resistance can then why can't the Shairgan who has both?

Also sight based mental attacks are exactly the kind of thing Tony's mental shields stop.

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#453 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@gabrielbelmont: When was it stated that KS attacks the soul? Because that would completely contradict how Aizen himself stated the ability works.

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#454 Posted by Streak619 (7744 posts) - - Show Bio

Genjutsu does work on edo tensei. Kotoamatsukami worked on edo Itachi. The only reason IT didn't was never really explained and can't be explained, it was done for the sake of plot. Edo tenseis can't become victims of the IT and have the god tree suck on their chakra, because the infinite chakra reserves. Juubi Jins and Kaguya would have access to infinite chakra, which would be quite insane.

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#455 Posted by ManimalMan (839 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles: its just something they started saying because aizen and the other shinigami are souls.

Which makes no sense with eqaulization active.

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#456 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@manimalman: Exactly.

Frankly it wouldn't make sense even without equalization. They are "souls" in name only. They have brains, blood, organs, they age. I mean they die for God's sake. If they were "souls" in the traditional sense they wouldn't die.

Anyway I digress. It's just an asspull from them.

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#457 Posted by ManimalMan (839 posts) - - Show Bio
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#458 Posted by silentNightz (602 posts) - - Show Bio

@manimalman: yes, small cities can have skyscrapers, and yes it may barely scratch 100,000 in pop. but tht still makes it bigger than Konoha, and massively smaller than anywhere in the spirit world. Population rates change drastically between time periods, and therefore the size of cities does too.

Image result for karakura town

Given how huge these pillars, show me a scan of a village in Naruto thts bigger, or something eluding to the idea of the villages having a larger population.

Soi Fon's Bankai isn't the biggesst in Bleach, but its ample to wipe a village off the map, just saying

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#459 Posted by silentNightz (602 posts) - - Show Bio

@tetsukage: you really like being intellectually dishonest, don't you?

Yhwach became aware of the passage of time when Haschwalth made him aware of the current time crunch. He didn't just see through it, he was caught.

KS is PERFECT, it cannot be seen through and its silly that you're trying to place Naruto restrictions on a Bleach ability. The Sharringan is good, but its not godly. Stop adjusting its power to make up for difference between worlds

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#460 Posted by silentNightz (602 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles said:

@gabrielbelmont: When was it stated that KS attacks the soul? Because that would completely contradict how Aizen himself stated the ability works.

They're spiritual beings...its kinda a given concept....

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#461 Posted by silentNightz (602 posts) - - Show Bio

@manimalman: Active equalization of energy concepts does not mean all concepts are equalized. A zanpakutou would still be stronger than almost every blade in Naruto(steel exist in Bleach and a zanpakutou can cut though it), Hierro still isn't normal skin, speed and power won't be nerfed, ABILITIES WON'T BE RENDERED MOOT, etc.

Because the Sharringan can see through genjutsu by detecting the irregular flow of chakra it wouldn't work on KS because there is no disruption. There are no signs of it having taken effect, its not limited or controlled by reishi available to the caster, and it has no range limit. The Byakugan should technically be better at seeing through genjutsu than the Sharingan, and I think it is.....didn't someone do tht in the show, i can't recall

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#462 Posted by silentNightz (602 posts) - - Show Bio

@manimalman: Exactly.

Frankly it wouldn't make sense even without equalization. They are "souls" in name only. They have brains, blood, organs, they age. I mean they die for God's sake. If they were "souls" in the traditional sense they wouldn't die.

Anyway I digress. It's just an asspull from them.

This is just ignorant, they literally exist on a separate plane of existence. In case you didn't know, the human world exists in Bleach, and the spirit worlds exist, THEY ARE DIFFERENT PLACES. Your lack of Bleach knowledge is showing really bad here as they reason why they age, feel hunger, and possess any of the other traits you mentioned has been explained in series. Which world's 'traditional' sense of the word soul are you using, because souls seem to exist in a similar manner in DBZ. Are you going to argue that Goku wasn't a soul at one point? Open up that can of worms if you dare

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#463 Posted by ManimalMan (839 posts) - - Show Bio

@silentnightz:

-anime scans aren't canon.

-soifon's bankai only covered a few blocks of kurakara town

-who cares how big konoha is?

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#464 Posted by gabrielbelmont (944 posts) - - Show Bio

KS gains access to the senses through the soul.

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#465 Edited by ichigoSOLOLORD (125 posts) - - Show Bio

KS stomps, even yhwach can't defend against it it's far stronger than genjutsu.

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#466 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@silentnightz: I mean it isn't at all a given based on the way there physiology works which is functionally similar to humans. Again other than the fact that normal humans 'can't' interact with them they function in the same manner.

It was never stated or implied that KS attacks the soul. In fact Aizen specifically states that it effects the 5 senses.

Not to mention this would be a moot point anyway given universe equalization rules.

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#467 Posted by GXrevs06 (4771 posts) - - Show Bio

Only a thread about Genjutsu can reach 10+ pages in 24 hours lmao

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#468 Posted by GXrevs06 (4771 posts) - - Show Bio

And again, humans are capable of interacting with them so them being 'made of different matter' doesn't have any bearing on whether they can be interacted with.

Correction. Only spiritually aware humans can interact with them. Normals cannot perceive them at all

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#469 Posted by silentNightz (602 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles said:

@silentnightz: I mean it isn't at all a given based on the way there physiology works which is functionally similar to humans. Again other than the fact that normal humans 'can't' interact with them they function in the same manner.

It was never stated or implied that KS attacks the soul. In fact Aizen specifically states that it effects the 5 senses.

Not to mention this would be a moot point anyway given universe equalization rules.

It is a given if you watch/read the series, its information that is given as the prerequisite and basis of the entire series. and other than the fact that humans can't interact with them, here are some other differences: super human strength, speed, durability, endurance, reflexes, senses, super longevity, ability to go between dimensions, THE VERY CONCEPT OF ZANPAKUTOU, kido(essentially magic), ability to consume souls(hollows), steel like skin(hollows), ability to manipulate the energy around them(essentially auto-Senjutsu), ability to spawn weapons, and the possession of innate abilities(super powers, in a sense). Even if humans could interact with them, they wouldn't be humans. Not by our standards, Naruto's standards, hell they aren't even normal by Ootsusuki standards, but they 'function in the same manner'. Quincies further prove this, as they are referred to as humans for the whole series, but souls are always referred to as souls. Aizen even called Ichigo human, and Ichigo possesses most of these traits. Functioning the same does not make them the same thing.

What KS effects(senses) has little to do with what its effecting if it's been seen. If the idea of KS affecting the soul is too much for you, we can call it an all around seizing of sensory perception of all sentient beings. Genjutsu takes effect on the senses through the chakra network, plain as day, everyone with chakra can be genjutsu'd. KS has been shown affecting souls, plain as day, it affects the soul. Why does this need to be stated? It is a basic concept of the series.

The point isn't moot. Naruto explains what genjutsu affects as well as why the Sharingan can see through them. KS isn't governed or restricted by those rules and power concepts. Its limits are clearly stated and no form of energy manipulation was included, reiatsu, reishi, or otherwise. If seen, it affects cannot be broken except by meeting the conditions stated. This 'Sharingan through it' ploy is an attempt to create a limitation where none exists, a reach for an exit tht isn't there.

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#470 Posted by naknoemo00 (172 posts) - - Show Bio

@naknoemo00: Naruto characters have mind attack resistance, Bleach characters do not it's that simple.

What are you even answering to? What is the point of this statement? Naruto characters without mind attack resistance can be freed and broken out of genjutsu to, my point is genjutsu has inherent weakness and it still has weakness even versus young ninjas dont even have any tp resistance.

You trolls who just ignore feats and evidence and keep spamming your own headcannon with your own faulty logic should try countering arguments and not just spam the same old bullshit over and over again, nothing states TP resistance is effective versus KS, nothing. KS is created to be unpenetretable and unbreakable, feats and statements reflects exactly this, evidence completely backs this up, if you want to argue this, please show me proof that this isn't true. While Naruto genjutsu is flawed from the begining even without TP resistance, so hence mind resistance, abilities and team mates works against Naruto genjutsu.

If TP resistance is effective against KS according to you, why isnt tapping them out or forcing them out like a jinchuriki can do to its host working? This is the flaw in your stupid headcannon arguments, but if that is to be true, shouldn't other ways to break someone out of KS also exist? So why doesn't other ways exist?

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#471 Posted by naknoemo00 (172 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebalance: both are baseless.

1.) Yhwach was able to tell he was being messed with, a Sharigan would have no trouble.

2.) Aizen himself stated they wouldn't work on Ichigo.

3.) KS does just happen it's a power which is sent via something

He would have known a genjutsu hits him in the future and turned it powerless, so how will Sharingan affect him? Is there any feat in Naruto where genjutsu is used against someone who can see every possible future and alter reality of each different future and turn all abilities powerless before these moments have even come to pass and has genjutsu been effective against such a foe? No, there isn´t, only KS has that feat.

Yhwach understood KS had changed and altered even his future perception, thats how hax KS is, it not only changes your perception of the present but also your ability to see the future.

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#472 Posted by TheBalance (823 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles said:

@manimalman: Exactly.

Frankly it wouldn't make sense even without equalization. They are "souls" in name only. They have brains, blood, organs, they age. I mean they die for God's sake. If they were "souls" in the traditional sense they wouldn't die.

Anyway I digress. It's just an asspull from them.

Well actually, souls don't age, reproduce or get hungry, unless they have spiritual power. Most souls that weren't born into the spiritual realm (died in the world of the living) don't develope spiritual power, nor have or find families and they generally stumble upon Rukongai or some other poor district. The Nobles who have a bloodline of people with high spiritual power have blood relatives, wealth and status. They age, reproduce, die from old age and get hungry. They all dwell inside the seireitei.

The souls with the closest resemblance to humans are those with spiritual power.

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#473 Posted by ManimalMan (839 posts) - - Show Bio

@thebalance: souls in the rukongai still age die and reproduce, iirc they just dont eat in a conventional sense due drawing nourishment from the environment.

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#474 Edited by ourmanuel (11923 posts) - - Show Bio

Comparing KS to a normal genjutsu is just you being in denial.

The only better genjutsu than KS are infinite Tsukuyomi and maybe kotoamatsukami. Maybe Tsukuyomi too, but it hasn’t been able to do much except torture people, tho I guess it’s more potent than KS. And the only reason Kotoamatsukami was so powerful was due to how it pretty much altered the way you thought, meaning that the usual methods of dispelling genjutsu wouldn’t apply, so it was pretty much down to how strong your mental will was.

Either way, have fun with your flame war

Inb4 “bleach chars have no TP resistance”.

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#475 Posted by ManimalMan (839 posts) - - Show Bio

@ourmanuel: as long basic genjutsu can do things that ks cant(knocking people out, invading their minds, controlling their movements ect) then there will always be areas where KS is inferior.

And as long as ks has better staying power it'll always have something over standard genjutsu.

In terms of actual illusion creatation theyre the same.

There's never gonna really be a way to properly compare the 2.

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#476 Posted by EcoBlitz (5094 posts) - - Show Bio

@naknoemo00: Ywach didn’t... that’s why Aizen even said “Oh you’re seeing ichigo” and why Ywach noted “The effects of your KS must have ended” because he couldn’t do shii about it.

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#477 Posted by UltraShaggy (993 posts) - - Show Bio

@deactivated-5c60ecae36801: After Genjutsu can affect someone on Yamamoto or Ywach lv , we can talk.

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#478 Posted by naknoemo00 (172 posts) - - Show Bio

@ecoblitz said:

@naknoemo00: Ywach didn’t... that’s why Aizen even said “Oh you’re seeing ichigo” and why Ywach noted “The effects of your KS must have ended” because he couldn’t do shii about it.

That's what I ment, never claimed Yhwach realized that fact due to him being able to sense the presence of KS, just claimed what he realized, I agree with you completely.

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#479 Edited by naknoemo00 (172 posts) - - Show Bio

@manimalman said:

@ourmanuel: as long basic genjutsu can do things that ks cant(knocking people out, invading their minds, controlling their movements ect) then there will always be areas where KS is inferior.

And as long as ks has better staying power it'll always have something over standard genjutsu.

In terms of actual illusion creatation theyre the same.

There's never gonna really be a way to properly compare the 2.

Why not? Because you say so? Because your superiour intellectual judgement has decided so? There´s plenty of ways to compare them both, you can compare feats, result, how counterable one is compared to the other, you can compare how effective one is on paper and in reality.

And they´re not the same, KS is superiour without contest, there´s not a single indication that supports any other idea, all evidence and feats leans towards KS being superiour.

There´s alot of things Naruto genjutsu can do, on paper, which makes them irrelevant until you see evidence of those feats against powerful foes, which is where that argument falls short, there´s barely any evidence supporting most genjutsu feats versus powerful targets, that´s the difference between KS and Naruto genjutsu, KS has all the evidence and feats it needs to support the claim that it is superiour.

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#480 Posted by UltimateSage (3127 posts) - - Show Bio

This shit here was amazing.lol

Both control five senses - Kyoka suigetsu is featless against anyone with illusion resistance. Sharingan, on the other hand, is not. It can also be used to hypnotize and take opponents out of commission.

KS=fodder genjutsu level technique

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#481 Posted by gabrielbelmont (944 posts) - - Show Bio

This shit here was amazing.lol

Both control five senses - Kyoka suigetsu is featless against anyone with illusion resistance. Sharingan, on the other hand, is not. It can also be used to hypnotize and take opponents out of commission.

KS=fodder genjutsu level technique

prove it or shut up.

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#482 Posted by deactivated-5c9e122a6bc32 (2290 posts) - - Show Bio

@gabrielbelmont: why are you always so quick to ask other to do the work for you? Prove it's not.

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#483 Posted by UltimateSage (3127 posts) - - Show Bio
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#484 Posted by UltimateSage (3127 posts) - - Show Bio

@tetsukage: Run dude, just run. He watched Roaring Thunder Pursuit's video about Bleach characters.lol

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#485 Posted by ManimalMan (839 posts) - - Show Bio

@naknoemo00: I've talked about the few advantages ks has already(long lasting, can reactivated instantly, isn't disrupted by pain). Those are all great but have little do with the actual detail or potency of the illusion which has never been that impressive.

The power thing is pointless to argue about for 2 reasons, first is because these are hax mental abilities where talking about, it doesn't matter how strong the people KS was used on were if they dont have feats of mental resistance. Superman for example has been mindfucked by street level characters. Not because their control was especially strong, but because supes doesnt normally have much resistance.

The second reason is that KS' power is affected by the caster. In the novel, we see tokinada(who has far less reaitsu than aizen) use ks and he's unable to instantly reactivate KS and cant maintain keeping multiple people under illusions for long.

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#486 Posted by ourmanuel (11923 posts) - - Show Bio

Why would anybody bump this?

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#487 Posted by naknoemo00 (172 posts) - - Show Bio

@naknoemo00: I've talked about the few advantages ks has already(long lasting, can reactivated instantly, isn't disrupted by pain). Those are all great but have little do with the actual detail or potency of the illusion which has never been that impressive.

The power thing is pointless to argue about for 2 reasons, first is because these are hax mental abilities where talking about, it doesn't matter how strong the people KS was used on were if they dont have feats of mental resistance. Superman for example has been mindfucked by street level characters. Not because their control was especially strong, but because supes doesnt normally have much resistance.

The second reason is that KS' power is affected by the caster. In the novel, we see tokinada(who has far less reaitsu than aizen) use ks and he's unable to instantly reactivate KS and cant maintain keeping multiple people under illusions for long.

Detail and potency is literally what makes Naruto genjutsu overrated in an argument, there´s alot of talk about genjutsu potency but little feats of it´s effectiveness and they always comes with alot of weaknesses, KS produces feats and results, it doesn´t need any more potency then it already has and lacks any weaknesses,

Thats assuming mental resistance can counter KS and what we know now, going by feats and evidence is that, nothing can counter KS, your argument is pointless. Also KS worked against someone who could see the future, all futures of all reality and manipulate them, all abilities and attacks seen by Yhwach could be turned powerless, he could literally turn your powers off, but still couldn´t counter KS. No genjutsu in Naruto would have been able to do this, because they´re to interactive, they are casted upon the user during battle and the user will eventually understand he is under a genjutsu when the damage is done, and Yhwach would have easily seen this and shut down the genjutsu, turning it powerless, useless. The difference here is you cannot detect KS and you never truly understand that you´re under it, and Yhwach confirmed you can´t either understand that you´re hit or affected by it in the future, even when seeing all possible futures of all realities and being able to manipulate reality.

Because it´s not his ability and not his zanpaktou, he copied Aizens zanpaktou, he doesn´t have any experience using it, at all. Don´t base things of your own headcannon.