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#1 Posted by NotCensored (428 posts) - - Show Bio

Considering that other thread got took down i figured i'd put this one up cause i was enjoying the show.

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#2 Posted by LimitlessSigil (2824 posts) - - Show Bio

It was probably deleted by the OP with good reason, also this thread already exists.

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#3 Edited by Godren (3615 posts) - - Show Bio

Comparing KS and Genjutsu in 2019 lmfao, you'll only see this still on CV.

The only similarity between the two is they're a form of mind manipulation, although Naruto has nothing like KS which is total and complete hypnosis. Genjutsu does exist in Bleach anime filler though via Koga Kuchiki.

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#4 Posted by LimitlessSigil (2824 posts) - - Show Bio

@godren said:

Comparing KS and Genjutsu in 2019 lmfao, you'll only see this still on CV.

KS is apparently Genin level Genjutsu

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#5 Posted by deactivated-5c60ecae36801 (745 posts) - - Show Bio

Until KS can do the following don't @ me.

  • Make someone live their entire life within 1/1000000000000th of a second.
  • Alter reality
  • Effect an entire planet, including people with TP resistance feats.

Genjutsu stomps.

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#6 Posted by deactivated-5c60ecae36801 (745 posts) - - Show Bio

@limitlesssigil: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/westwood_trevor/blog/naruto-why-genjutsu-works-on-people-without-chakra/132475/

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#7 Posted by LimitlessSigil (2824 posts) - - Show Bio

@ezrael: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/can-genjutsu-be-used-on-characters-without-chakra-1595542/

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#8 Posted by LimitlessSigil (2824 posts) - - Show Bio

@ezrael said:

@limitlesssigil said:

@ezrael: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/can-genjutsu-be-used-on-characters-without-chakra-1595542/

LMAO you're argument got shut down in that thread tooo.

Jesus you need to open them eyes son.

Last response I'm making, KS is like combining every Genjutsu into one and then throwing in steroids.

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#9 Posted by NotCensored (428 posts) - - Show Bio

It was probably deleted by the OP with good reason, also this thread already exists.

yeah it did get derailed pretty heavily also i just figured i'd make a new thread anyway attract more people to the discussion

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#10 Posted by deactivated-5c60ecae36801 (745 posts) - - Show Bio

@ezrael: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/can-genjutsu-be-used-on-characters-without-chakra-1595542/

LMAO you're argument got shut down in that thread tooo.

Jesus you need to open them eyes son.

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#11 Posted by Jko1 (2832 posts) - - Show Bio

@ezrael said:

@limitlesssigil: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/westwood_trevor/blog/naruto-why-genjutsu-works-on-people-without-chakra/132475/

@ezrael: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/can-genjutsu-be-used-on-characters-without-chakra-1595542/

Lmao you guys tagged each other at the exact same time.

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#12 Posted by Godren (3615 posts) - - Show Bio

@godren said:

Comparing KS and Genjutsu in 2019 lmfao, you'll only see this still on CV.

KS is apparently Genin level Genjutsu

That's just crap Naruto debaters on CV spew to try and belittle Bleach in every way possible lmao.

You can just as easily call it useless via Genjutsu never being shown to work on spirits.

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#13 Posted by deactivated-5c60ecae36801 (745 posts) - - Show Bio

@ezrael said:

@limitlesssigil said:

@ezrael: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/can-genjutsu-be-used-on-characters-without-chakra-1595542/

LMAO you're argument got shut down in that thread tooo.

Jesus you need to open them eyes son.

Last response I'm making, KS is like combining every Genjutsu into one and then throwing in steroids.

Injecting it with roids, you don't toss stuff in roids.

@ezrael said:

Until KS can do the following don't @ me.

  • Make someone live their entire life within 1/1000000000000th of a second.
  • Alter reality
  • Effect an entire planet, including people with TP resistance feats.

Genjutsu stomps.

Rekt

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#14 Posted by LimitlessSigil (2824 posts) - - Show Bio

@godren said:

@limitlesssigil said:

@godren said:

Comparing KS and Genjutsu in 2019 lmfao, you'll only see this still on CV.

KS is apparently Genin level Genjutsu

That's just crap Naruto debaters on CV spew to try and belittle Bleach in every way possible lmao.

You can just as easily call it useless via Genjutsu never being shown to work on spirits.

Lol, I'd love to see their attempt at countering this.

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#15 Posted by UltimateSage (1321 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

Man, another one.

Both control five senses - Kyoka suigetsu is featless against anyone with illusion resistance. Sharingan, on the other hand, is not. It can also be used to hypnotize and take opponents out of commission.

READ THE GODDAMN LINK!!

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#16 Posted by deactivated-5c60ecae36801 (745 posts) - - Show Bio

@limitlesssigil:

No Caption Provided

Man, another one.

Both control five senses - Kyoka suigetsu is featless against anyone with illusion resistance. Sharingan, on the other hand, is not. It can also be used to hypnotize and take opponents out of commission.

READ THE GODDAMN LINK!!

Just in case you still don't understand.

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#17 Posted by NotCensored (428 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultimatesage: what can i say i was enjoying the debate so i made this thread to continue it

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#18 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (3428 posts) - - Show Bio

@limitlesssigil: 'Spirits' in Bleach age, die, produce offspring, have normal organs, bleed and can be interacted with by the human world. They even have brains.

In terms of the way they interact with each other and the human world there is no reason at all to think that Genjutsu wouldn't effect them. Outside of obvious bias.

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#19 Posted by UltimateSage (1321 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by Godren (3615 posts) - - Show Bio

@limitlesssigil: 'Spirits' in Bleach age, die, produce offspring, have normal organs, bleed and can be interacted with by the human world. They even have brains.

In terms of the way they interact with each other and the human world there is no reason at all to think that Genjutsu wouldn't effect them. Outside of obvious bias.

Except they're made of a completely different form of matter, and exist in a different plane of existence. Being able to age is irrelevant which is only because of their high amounts of energy they need to replenish it.

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#21 Posted by InvadedTBD (953 posts) - - Show Bio

I explained the difference in the other thread way before the flame war began but nobody paid attention. This will probably end being another flame war cuz people can't debate w/o throwing insults smh.

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#22 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (3868 posts) - - Show Bio

I’ll just repost this here.

In the Novel Shusui stated that his Mangekyou allowed him to side step some of the requirments for genjutsu but this only seems exclusive to Shusui’s Kotoamatsukami since Itachi’s MS and Sasukes EMS were still required to make eye contact with Kabuto to use genjutsu so that means it also needs to affect the flow of chakra to work.

KS has no such limits and can work on supernatural sensing abilities and one’s sense of time.

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#23 Posted by deactivated-5c60ecae36801 (745 posts) - - Show Bio

@godren: What's not relevant is what their made from, they both have brains, senses, nerve networks, blah, blah, blah.

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#24 Edited by Man_of_Miracles (3428 posts) - - Show Bio

@godren: Not sure if you are aware but this battle forum has an equalization rule so they don't 'exist in a different plane of existence' for the purposes of this example.

And again, humans are capable of interacting with them so them being 'made of different matter' doesn't have any bearing on whether they can be interacted with.

But I already know it's pointless to argue with you. I mean in another thread you claimed that Ywach is at least solar system level, so frankly you are a joke.

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#25 Posted by Godren (3615 posts) - - Show Bio

@ezrael said:

@godren: What's not relevant is what their made from, they both have brains, senses, nerve networks, blah, blah, blah.

Besides looking the same, do you have any actual proof? you're entire argument relies on appearance which doesn't matter at all.

Quincy are the closet things to human.

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#26 Edited by Godren (3615 posts) - - Show Bio

@man_of_miracles said:

@godren: Not sure if you are aware but this battle forum has an equalization rule so they don't 'exist in a different plane of existence' for the purposes of this example.

This isn't how verse equalization works, verse equalization puts them on neutral field so similar abilities can work on one another. I bet you think anyone can look at someone like Cthulhu via verse equalization huh?

And again, humans are capable of interacting with them so them being 'made of different matter' doesn't have any bearing on whether they can be interacted with.

Except normal humans can't derp.

But I already know it's pointless to argue with you. I mean in another thread you claimed that Ywach is at least solar system level, so frankly you are a joke.

Lmao you think I give a shit what you think about me on the internet? keep your feeling to yourself.

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#27 Posted by deactivated-5c60ecae36801 (745 posts) - - Show Bio

@godren:

@limitlesssigil: 'Spirits' in Bleach age, die, produce offspring, have normal organs, bleed and can be interacted with by the human world. They even have brains.

In terms of the way they interact with each other and the human world there is no reason at all to think that Genjutsu wouldn't effect them. Outside of obvious bias.

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#28 Edited by Godren (3615 posts) - - Show Bio

@ezrael said:

@godren:

@man_of_miracles said:

@limitlesssigil: 'Spirits' in Bleach age, die, produce offspring, have normal organs, bleed and can be interacted with by the human world. They even have brains.

In terms of the way they interact with each other and the human world there is no reason at all to think that Genjutsu wouldn't effect them. Outside of obvious bias.

Why did you repeat irrelevant information? show me a scan of it working on spirits. i'm sure you can find one in the war arc.

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#29 Posted by deactivated-5c60ecae36801 (745 posts) - - Show Bio

@godren: You're not getting anywhere, nothing you said shows that it wouldn't work.

you brought this up first, it's on you.

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#30 Posted by UltimateSage (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

I’ll just repost this here.

In the Novel Shusui stated that his Mangekyou allowed him to side step some of the requirments for genjutsu but this only seems exclusive to Shusui’s Kotoamatsukami since Itachi’s MS and Sasukes EMS were still required to make eye contact with Kabuto to use genjutsu so that means it also needs to affect the flow of chakra to work.

KS has no such limits and can work on supernatural sensing abilities and one’s sense of time.

You can keep on posting as many times as you want, since you don't seem to understand it yourself.smh

The requirement that koto step sides is the eye sight requirement one, since you need eye contact for sharingan genjutsu to work. Koto doesn't need eye contact to work.

Kotoamatsukami is a powerful but subtle mind-controlling genjutsu that belonged to the Mangekyou Sharingan of Uchiha Shisui. The Sharingan’s eye of hypnosis holds the power to dominate the will of its target with that of the caster’s at its highest level, suppressing the victim’s consciousness to force them to do whatever the caster desires. Kotoamatsukami is that very ability taken to even greater heights.

It controls the target by implanting an idea into their mind and reshapes their thoughts and decisions with false experiences to make them believe that the idea is entirely their own. The victim would obey Shisui’s command without realising they were being manipulatedwhile perfectly rationalizing their future decisions based that implanted thought. Kotoamatsukami is not even an ongoing genjutsu; it takes only seconds for the illusion to warp the victim’s mind to follow the caster’s bidding after it has been activated.

Once the command takes root, the jutsu ends without leaving any trace of its existence within their chakra system to detect or counter, so the caster does not need to maintain it. And unlike practically every other genjutsu cast by the Sharingan, eye contact is not a necessary requirement to effect an individual. As long as they are within the eye’s line of sight, they are a potential target.

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#31 Posted by Godren (3615 posts) - - Show Bio

@ezrael said:

@godren: You're not getting anywhere, nothing you said shows that it wouldn't work.

you brought this up first, it's on you.

It's never worked on spirits, nor has it ever been implied too. Just post a single scan of it working on a spirit. I can show KS working on spirits and humans :).

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#32 Posted by NotCensored (428 posts) - - Show Bio
@godren said:

It's never worked on spirits, nor has it ever been implied too. Just post a single scan of it working on a spirit. I can show KS working on spirits and humans :).

This implies that Naruto and Bleach spirits are the same when Naruto spirits are pure energy and Bleach spirits are made of physical matter.

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#33 Edited by deactivated-5c60ecae36801 (745 posts) - - Show Bio

@godren: Ichigo's physiology hasn't changed at all when it comes to how his basic senses and mind works.

You don't have an argument, it's more of a attempt to save face.

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#34 Posted by Godren (3615 posts) - - Show Bio

@godren said:

It's never worked on spirits, nor has it ever been implied too. Just post a single scan of it working on a spirit. I can show KS working on spirits and humans :).

This implies that Naruto and Bleach spirits are the same when Naruto spirits are pure energy and Bleach spirits are made of physical matter.

Spiritual matter is not physical matter.

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#35 Posted by Hope_w (2644 posts) - - Show Bio

KS has never caused any physical or mental damage, nor do anything besides show illusions.....fodder Genjutsu have physically blinded, taken over people's bodies, put massive amount of people under hypnosis, completely controlled people, killed people, and can manipulate the soul.......this isn't even the high-end Genjutsu that can seal, reality warp, zombify, etc.

Bleach fanbase and practically every user that debates for it is utter cancer.

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#36 Posted by InvadedTBD (953 posts) - - Show Bio

This is getting nowhere why are people so hung up on genjutsu working on soul reapers, even if it did(I'm not saying it does) it wouldn't be that effective as soul reapers have another soul with them kinda like a jinchuriki (their zanpaktou) that can sense this and fluctuate their spirit pressure to get them out of it.

KyokaSuigetsu on the other hand only has to be seen released and your in it and the only way to get out would be to be touching the blade itself. It also can stay active for at least 100 years as long as you have seen it.

A lot of people on CV like to call KS the same as basic genjutsu which is false. They are not the same, do similar things but are not the same please stop equating them as such.

I don't care about which is better. SMH.

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#37 Posted by Gilateen (3158 posts) - - Show Bio

Genjutsu wins. It does whatever KS Does.

Genjutsu Has more feats too.

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#38 Posted by deactivated-5c60ecae36801 (745 posts) - - Show Bio

@invadedtbd:

This is getting nowhere why are people so hung up on genjutsu working on soul reapers, even if it did(I'm not saying it does) it wouldn't be that effective as soul reapers have another soul with them kinda like a jinchuriki (their zanpaktou) that can sense this and fluctuate their spirit pressure to get them out of it.

This doesn't allways work, Obito controlled a Jin for years, IT worked on perfect jins.

KyokaSuigetsu on the other hand only has to be seen released and your in it and the only way to get out would be to be touching the blade itself. It also can stay active for at least 100 years as long as you have seen it.

Longevity =/= potency

A lot of people on CV like to call KS the same as basic genjutsu which is false. They are not the same, do similar things but are not the same please stop equating them as such.

They do the same shit, KS just lasts a long time.

I don't care about which is better. SMH.

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#39 Posted by NotCensored (428 posts) - - Show Bio
@hope_w said:

KS has never caused any physical or mental damage, nor do anything besides show illusions.....fodder Genjutsu have physically blinded, taken over people's bodies, put massive amount of people under hypnosis, completely controlled people, killed people, and can manipulate the soul.......this isn't even the high-end Genjutsu that can seal, reality warp, zombify, etc.

Bleach fanbase and practically every user that debates for it is utter cancer.

pretty much agree with this tho i dont think the potency of KS should be underestimated it may work the same as a regular Genjutsu but its potency would be far higher

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#40 Posted by Godren (3615 posts) - - Show Bio

@ezrael said:

@godren: Ichigo's physiology hasn't changed at all when it comes to how his basic senses and mind works.

You don't have an argument, it's more of a attempt to save face.

Is this some dumb joke? you're using Ichigo as the basis of your argument? Ichigo is not a Shinigami. It's funny because even here you're wrong because Ichigo literally doesn't have a heart and he's walking around completely fine.

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#41 Posted by UltimateSage (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

@godren said:
@ezrael said:

@godren: You're not getting anywhere, nothing you said shows that it wouldn't work.

you brought this up first, it's on you.

It's never worked on spirits, nor has it ever been implied too. Just post a single scan of it working on a spirit. I can show KS working on spirits and humans :).

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait hold on hold on hold on HOLD ON!

So according to you guys(bleach fans), IT doesn't work on bleach characters because it didn't work on the edo tensei hokages.( was said by you guys)

Kabuto was able to put an edo tensei itachi in a genjutsu, why wouldn't it work on bleach characters if their the same as edo tensei according again to you guys?

HOW DOES THIS WORK?

You got to pick one side and stay there, dude.

No Caption Provided

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#42 Posted by ValorKnight (11675 posts) - - Show Bio

@ezrael said:

Until KS can do the following don't @ me.

  • Make someone live their entire life within 1/1000000000000th of a second.
  • Alter reality
  • Effect an entire planet, including people with TP resistance feats.

Genjutsu stomps.

You just specifically mentioned Tsukuyomi, Izanagi, and the Infinite Tsukuyomi. It's nonsensical to compare Kanzen Saimin to some of the most potent and powerful illusions in the entire series when you had just recently argued it at the level of normal Genjutsu. If you want a rebuttal for your bullet points as well, here:

  • Tell me what normal Genjutsu can ensnare multiple individuals for over one hundred years.
  • Tell me what normal Genjutsu can affect spirits and those without the faculties of your average humans or animals.
  • Tell me what normal Genjutsu can affect someone with the ability to see into the future and negate any in-verse ability that is used on him.

If you're going to argue something, at least stick to your guns instead of flip-flopping between all of these idiotic ideas.

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#43 Posted by deactivated-5c60ecae36801 (745 posts) - - Show Bio

@godren said:
@ezrael said:

@godren: Ichigo's physiology hasn't changed at all when it comes to how his basic senses and mind works.

You don't have an argument, it's more of a attempt to save face.

Is this some dumb joke? you're using Ichigo as the basis of your argument? Ichigo is not a Shinigami. It's funny because even here you're wrong because Ichigo literally doesn't have a heart and he's walking around completely fine.

And yet he's comparable to any SR.....

The only joke here is you.

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#44 Posted by Godren (3615 posts) - - Show Bio

@godren said:
@ezrael said:

@godren: You're not getting anywhere, nothing you said shows that it wouldn't work.

you brought this up first, it's on you.

It's never worked on spirits, nor has it ever been implied too. Just post a single scan of it working on a spirit. I can show KS working on spirits and humans :).

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait hold on hold on hold on HOLD ON!

So according to you guys(bleach fans), IT doesn't work on bleach characters because it didn't work on the edo tensei hokages.( was said by you guys)

Kabuto was able to put an edo tensei itachi in a genjutsu, why wouldn't it work on bleach characters if their the same as edo tensei according again to you guys?

HOW DOES THIS WORK?

You got to pick one side and stay there, dude.

No Caption Provided

The hell you talking about? that's a weakness for IT. also Edo are not like bleach character the hell. the closest thing to that is god damn gigai.

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#45 Posted by deactivated-5c60ecae36801 (745 posts) - - Show Bio

@valorknight: I never once flip flopped lmao.

Also this post is Genjutsu….. Are those not genjutsu? Ok so hop off.

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#46 Posted by Godren (3615 posts) - - Show Bio

@ezrael said:
@godren said:
@ezrael said:

@godren: Ichigo's physiology hasn't changed at all when it comes to how his basic senses and mind works.

You don't have an argument, it's more of a attempt to save face.

Is this some dumb joke? you're using Ichigo as the basis of your argument? Ichigo is not a Shinigami. It's funny because even here you're wrong because Ichigo literally doesn't have a heart and he's walking around completely fine.

And yet he's comparable to any SR.....

The only joke here is you.

This isn't an argument, what are you even trying to say?

Ichigo was consistently called a disappointment at being a Shinigami, what does this even have to do with anything were arguing right now? he's a Quincy/Hollow/Fullbringer/Shinigami/Human he's legit the same race as God in Bleach which is legit everything.

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#47 Posted by deactivated-5c60ecae36801 (745 posts) - - Show Bio

@godren:

It doesn't matter, his mind is that of a human, and he's comparable to any other SR.

You're trying way to hard to make this fact disappear

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#48 Posted by InvadedTBD (953 posts) - - Show Bio

@ezrael: refrain from tagging me, I refuse to debate with you because when you are losing in a debate you start to spam flag people and a debate with you will only lead to insults being thrown. Im not here for that. So please don't tag me anymore. Thanks

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#49 Posted by deactivated-5c60ecae36801 (745 posts) - - Show Bio

@invadedtbd: I've not once flagged anyone on CV.

And if you read the rules, when you get karma you deserved it, Don't blame me for others flagging you.

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#50 Edited by ValorKnight (11675 posts) - - Show Bio

@ezrael:

I never once flip flopped lmao.

Oh, but you did. In the other thread, not even an hour ago, you were arguing that illusions cast by Kyoka Suigetsu were at the same level as normal Genjutsu. In this thread, however, you felt the need to compare it to the most powerful illusions in the series to defend your feeble point of view. That's flip-flopping at it's finest.

Also this post is Genjutsu….. Are those not genjutsu? Ok so hop off.

It doesn't change the fact that you felt the need to completely change your view to avoid looking like an idiot when everything you had previously said got debunked.