Which grievous are we talking about?? If it's 2003 OP as hell grievous him with ease if it's CW Grievous Jedi if it's comic grievous I see a tough fight but the jedi winning mainly due to Plo Koon. Luminara is a master of form 3 if I remember which means she focuses on being more defensive
@Drakkis: I do not believe there is any significant power gap between the three versions of Grievous. Everyone insists there is and use his losing to Ventress as an example, but how is that proof? We can just as easily say Ventress improved in-between her two fights with Grievous. I have yet to be convinced that Grievous got "weaker".
Also, not even Grievous from the original CW Micro-Series wins this, as his best feat is fighting evenly with Ki-Adi-Mundi. Plo Koon and Luminara together>Ki-Adi-Mundi. So the Jedi win 6-7/10 no matter what.
@Chaos Prime: Yes, Grievous is quite formidable. I believe together Luminara and Plo might be able to score a win, but it'd be close either way. Neither is among the best or worst swordsmen the Prequel era Jedi Order produced, but both have managed to survive encounters with Asajj Ventress. In Plo's case he was losing though, and he also lost badly to Savage Opress, so I have no doubt that he'd be curbstomped. But Luminara was able to fight evenly with Ventress when backed up by Ahsoka, who is vastly inferior to Plo Koon. So together I think they can at least stalemate Grievous.
@Chaos Prime: Yes, Grievous is quite formidable. I believe together Luminara and Plo might be able to score a win, but it'd be close either way. Neither is among the best or worst swordsmen the Prequel era Jedi Order produced, but both have managed to survive encounters with Asajj Ventress. In Plo's case he was losing though, and he also lost badly to Savage Opress, so I have no doubt that he'd be curbstomped. But Luminara was able to fight evenly with Ventress when backed up by Ahsoka, who is vastly inferior to Plo Koon. So together I think they can at least stalemate Grievous.
True but being a master taction GG could just play it smart & draw the battle out waiting for Plo to let his guard down & then it could be just a matter of time before GG takes Luminara out?
@Drakkis: I do not believe there is any significant power gap between the three versions of Grievous. Everyone insists there is and use his losing to Ventress as an example, but how is that proof? We can just as easily say Ventress improved in-between her two fights with Grievous. I have yet to be convinced that Grievous got "weaker".
Also, not even Grievous from the original CW Micro-Series wins this, as his best feat is fighting evenly with Ki-Adi-Mundi. Plo Koon and Luminara together>Ki-Adi-Mundi. So the Jedi win 6-7/10 no matter what.
How do you not think there is a significant power gap between the three versions? o.O
In one version he roflstomps like 5 or 6 jedi masters, and in the others he is getting beat by someone that can barely take one a lot of the time. He destroyed Ki-Adi-Mundi and several other masters at the same time. Where did you get he fought evenly with just Ki-Adi? Unless we are talking about two different encounters.
If this is the OP version of Grevious then he wins 10/10 in a curbstomp. If this is one of the others, then I'd say he wins a 6/7 majority.
In one version he roflstomps like 5 or 6 jedi masters, and in the others he is getting beat by someone that can barely take one a lot of the time. He destroyed Ki-Adi-Mundi and several other masters at the same time. Where did you get he fought evenly with just Ki-Adi? Unless we are talking about two different encounters.
Incorrect. He fought evenly with Ki-Adi-Mundi and defeated one Jedi Master in Shaak Ti. The other four Jedi he defeated on Hyproi were not masters. Three were utterly featless.
And if you are referring to Asajj, she has fought evenly with Anakin and Obi-Wan and was only narrowly driven away by to Mace Windu.
So no, there is no discrepancy that I can see. Grievous' showing on Hyproi doesn't cut it as evidence for the reasons I just listed.
In one version he roflstomps like 5 or 6 jedi masters, and in the others he is getting beat by someone that can barely take one a lot of the time. He destroyed Ki-Adi-Mundi and several other masters at the same time. Where did you get he fought evenly with just Ki-Adi? Unless we are talking about two different encounters.
Incorrect. He fought evenly with Ki-Adi-Mundi and defeated one Jedi Master in Shaak Ti. The other four Jedi he defeated on Hyproi were not masters. Three were utterly featless.
And if you are referring to Asajj, she has fought evenly with Anakin and Obi-Wan and was only narrowly driven away by to Mace Windu.
So no, there is no discrepancy that I can see. Grievous' showing on Hyproi doesn't cut it as evidence for the reasons I just listed.
Irregardless, it is still a much better feat than any Asajj has shown, and it is still a much better feat than what his other versions have shown. He did not fight evenly with Ki-Adi-Mundi, Ki-Adi-Mundi fought evenly with him for a very short time.
Irregardless, it is still a much better feat than any Asajj has shown, and it is still a much better feat than what his other versions have shown. He did not fight evenly with Ki-Adi-Mundi, Ki-Adi-Mundi fought evenly with him for a very short time.
No, its not better than anything Ventress has demonstrated. She has regularly caused trouble for Anakin and Obi-Wan, both of whom are superior to Ki-Adi-Mundi, especially together. Mace was only barely able to drive her away, and she was also overcoming Plo Koon in their duel. So no, Ventress has plenty of feats equal to and better than Grievous' Hyproi massacre, which itself is not even his best feat.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
He did not fight evenly with Ki-Adi-Mundi, Ki-Adi-Mundi fought evenly with him for a very short time.
No, they fought evenly. You can't have one person fighting evenly with another person but the other guy's not fighting evenly too. Its oxymoronic. Fighting evenly implies that the two are doing exactly that. If one person's not fighting evenly, than that means he's either better or worse.
Irregardless, it is still a much better feat than any Asajj has shown, and it is still a much better feat than what his other versions have shown. He did not fight evenly with Ki-Adi-Mundi, Ki-Adi-Mundi fought evenly with him for a very short time.
No, its not better than anything Ventress has demonstrated. She has regularly caused trouble for Anakin and Obi-Wan, both of whom are superior to Ki-Adi-Mundi, especially together. Mace was only barely able to drive her away, and she was also overcoming Plo Koon in their duel. So no, Ventress has plenty of feats equal to and better than Grievous' Hyproi massacre, which itself is not even his best feat.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
He did not fight evenly with Ki-Adi-Mundi, Ki-Adi-Mundi fought evenly with him for a very short time.
No, they fought evenly. You can't have one person fighting evenly with another person but the other guy's not fighting evenly too. Its oxymoronic. Fighting evenly implies that the two are doing exactly that. If one person's not fighting evenly, than that means he's either better or worse.
Sorry, but no. It is better than anything she has demonstrated. You already stated that he defeated Shaak-Ti while he was fighting 5(?) other Jedi, one who is also a master. That means he defeated one reputable Jedi master while fighting another reputable jedi master, along with 4(?) other Jedi.That is a much better feat than anything Asajj has shown. Asajj has, from what I know, fought/kept her ground against at most 1 Jedi Master, 2 if you want to say Obi-Wan and Anakin are masters since, going just by their swordsman ship, are arguably masters. GG fought and defeated 2 Jedi Masters along with 4 other Jedi at the same time. I don't get how you think 6v1 is not greater than 2v1 or 1v1 when both have Jedi masters. Asajj has caused trouble for Anakin and Obi-Wan, but has she ever really defeated them? If I recall correctly, Anakin/Obi-Wan have defeated her by themselves several times. Also, there isn't much, if any, evidence to suggest Anakin > Ki-Adi-Mundi, or Obi-Wan > Ki-Adi-Mundi. If you are gonna say that, at least try to bring in evidence.
Yes, they fought evenly, for a short period of time. When I say Ki-Adi-Mundi was fighting evenly with him and not the other way around, I mean that GG is on one level, Ki-Adi-Mundi was doing all he could to be on his level, and still failed after a short period of time because he couldn't fight evenly with GG for long. Basically, GG is greater than Ki-Adi, and so he wouldn't be fighting on Ki-Adi's level, Ki-Adi would be fighting on his. Just like during Windu vs Sidious. We don't say Sidious was fighting on Windu's level; we say Windu was fighting on Sidious' level because Sidious > Windu. The same concept is here.
Sorry, but no. It is better than anything she has demonstrated. You already stated that he defeated Shaak-Ti while he was fighting 5(?) other Jedi, one who is also a master. That means he defeated one reputable Jedi master while fighting another reputable jedi master, along with 4(?) other Jedi.That is a much better feat than anything Asajj has shown. Asajj has fought at most 1 Jedi Master, 2 if you want to say Obi-Wan and Anakin are masters since, going just by their swordsman ship, are arguably masters. GG fought and defeated 2 Jedi Masters along with 4 other Jedi at the same time. I don't get how you think 6v1 is not greater than 2v1 or 1v1 when both have Jedi masters. Asajj has caused trouble for Anakin and Obi-Wan, but has she ever really defeated them? If I recall correctly, Anakin has defeated her by himself several times.
Rank does not denote skill. Feats do. Anakin and Obi-Wan are both leaps and bounds better than Shaak Ti, who has next to no feats with a lightsaber. That she is a Jedi Master is irrelevant. She is below Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, and likely even Plo Koon by a fair margin. Ventress has had decent to good showing against all of those Jedi. And again, the other four Jedi were featless with the exception of Aayala, who is little better. One or two accomplished swordsmen is better than one good one plus five decent to featless ones. Why do you think Palpatine curbstomped Mace and company again? Because he was better. That Mace and company were masters and had numbers on their side both proved to mean nothing. Palpatine still made a mockery of them. Its a similar thing here.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
Also, there isn't much, if any, evidence to suggest Anakin > Ki-Adi-Mundi, or Obi-Wan > Ki-Adi-Mundi. If you are gonna say that, at least try to bring in evidence.
Yes there is. Defeating Darth Tyranus for starters, but also Obi-Wan has beaten Savage Opress, who stomped Plo Koon. And while they have each beaten Ventress individually, that does not change the fact that Ventress has fought evenly with them both. This means that they are only marginally better than her. Ki-Adi-Mundi has never fought and beaten anyone on the level of either Tyranus or Savage Opress. Obi-Wan also fought evenly with Darth Maul, so yes, I am firm in my belief that they are both a great deal better than Mundi.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
Yes, they fought evenly, for a short period of time. When I say Ki-Adi-Mundi was fighting evenly with him, I mean that GG is on one level, Ki-Adi-Mundi was doing all he could to be on his level, and still failed after a short period of time because he couldn't fighting evenly with GG for long. Basically, GG is greater than Ki-Adi, and so he wouldn't be fighting on Ki-Adi's level, Ki-Adi would be fighting on his. Just like during Windu vs Sidious. We don't say Sidious was fighting on Windu's level; we say Windu was fighting on Sidious' level because Sidious > Windu. The same concept is here.
Bad comparison. Mace had an amp that allowed him to have an impasse with Sidious. Sidious is better because his Force ability is superior and also because without that amp Mace would not have lasted any longer than Kit Fisto. Ki-Adi-Mundi fought evenly with Grievous and was not shown to be losing. They dueled until the ARC troopers arrived to bail Mundi out. That duel too was an impasse. Neither one showed any advantage over the other.
@JamesKM716: Prove it. Grievous' fight with Mace happened on Boz Pity, which chronologically is AFTER the second Clone Wars show. And in any event, Mace is only marginally better than Kit Fisto and Asajj Ventress, and the former had a lightsaber form that is a good counter to Grievous. I see no inconsistency there. He did lose to Ventress on Dathomir, but why does this prove Grievous got weaker? Is it not more logical to assume that Ventress got better? Especially since Ventress when she lost to Grievous had earlier lost to what was for all intents and purposes AotC Anakin. And yet later in the Clone Wars she was fighting evenly with a better version of Anakin backed up by Obi-Wan. This tells me that Ventress got better, and therefore there is no disparity or inconsistency there either.
So prove to me that he got weaker, because I just don't see it. No one has presented an iota of valid evidence to support this idea that he got weaker.
Sorry, but no. It is better than anything she has demonstrated. You already stated that he defeated Shaak-Ti while he was fighting 5(?) other Jedi, one who is also a master. That means he defeated one reputable Jedi master while fighting another reputable jedi master, along with 4(?) other Jedi.That is a much better feat than anything Asajj has shown. Asajj has fought at most 1 Jedi Master, 2 if you want to say Obi-Wan and Anakin are masters since, going just by their swordsman ship, are arguably masters. GG fought and defeated 2 Jedi Masters along with 4 other Jedi at the same time. I don't get how you think 6v1 is not greater than 2v1 or 1v1 when both have Jedi masters. Asajj has caused trouble for Anakin and Obi-Wan, but has she ever really defeated them? If I recall correctly, Anakin has defeated her by himself several times.
Rank does not denote skill. Feats do. Anakin and Obi-Wan are both leaps and bounds better than Shaak Ti, who has next to no feats with a lightsaber. That she is a Jedi Master is irrelevant. She is below Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, and likely even Plo Koon by a fair margin. Ventress has had decent to good showing against all of those Jedi. And again, the other four Jedi were featless with the exception of Aayala, who is little better. One or two accomplished swordsmen is better than one good one plus five decent to featless ones. Why do you think Palpatine curbstomped Mace and company again? Because he was better. That Mace and company were masters and had numbers on their side both proved to mean nothing. Palpatine still made a mockery of them. Its a similar thing here.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
Also, there isn't much, if any, evidence to suggest Anakin > Ki-Adi-Mundi, or Obi-Wan > Ki-Adi-Mundi. If you are gonna say that, at least try to bring in evidence.
Yes there is. Defeating Darth Tyranus for starters, but also Obi-Wan has beaten Savage Opress, who stomped Plo Koon. And while they have each beaten Ventress individually, that does not change the fact that Ventress has fought evenly with them both. This means that they are only marginally better than her. Ki-Adi-Mundi has never fought and beaten anyone on the level of either Tyranus or Savage Opress. Obi-Wan also fought evenly with Darth Maul, so yes, I am firm in my belief that they are both a great deal better than Mundi.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
Yes, they fought evenly, for a short period of time. When I say Ki-Adi-Mundi was fighting evenly with him, I mean that GG is on one level, Ki-Adi-Mundi was doing all he could to be on his level, and still failed after a short period of time because he couldn't fighting evenly with GG for long. Basically, GG is greater than Ki-Adi, and so he wouldn't be fighting on Ki-Adi's level, Ki-Adi would be fighting on his. Just like during Windu vs Sidious. We don't say Sidious was fighting on Windu's level; we say Windu was fighting on Sidious' level because Sidious > Windu. The same concept is here.
Bad comparison. Mace had an amp that allowed him to have an impasse with Sidious. Sidious is better because his Force ability is superior and also because without that amp Mace would not have lasted any longer than Kit Fisto. Ki-Adi-Mundi fought evenly with Grievous and was not shown to be losing. They dueled until the ARC troopers arrived to bail Mundi out. That duel too was an impasse. Neither one showed any advantage over the other.
Shaak-Ti was able to stand her ground and almost defeated Starkiller. That is a very notable feat as he was arguably able to defeat Vader 1v1, but, at the very least, a match for Darth Vader in lightsaber combat and Darth Vader >>>>>>>>>>> Anakin. So, no. Shaak-Ti is not below Anakin, Plo Koon, or Obi-Wan. Ki-Adi-Mundi fought Ventress evenly and forced her to retreat. Ventress, as you said, regularly gives Obi-Wan and Anakin trouble 2v1. So, by your logic, Ki-Adi > Obi-Wan or Anakin. Neither Shaak-Ti nor Ki-Adi-Mundi are canon fodder.
Who cares whether Savage stomped Plo Koon. Plo Koon =/= Ki-Adi. Neither is he better in lightsaber combat. Not only that, but there are different lightsaber forms, so ABC logic does not apply. When did Obi-Wan fight evenly with Darth Maul?
It isn't a bad comparison. GG > Ki-Adi-Mundi in lightsaber combat, so Ki-Adi would be fighting on GG's level, not the other way around. Unless you want to say it is the other way around, then that just means GG was toying with Ki-Adi so that it would be even. Either way, GG > Ki-Adi. Ki-Adi didn't even fight GG evenly for long. GG disarmed Ki-Adi rather quickly and almost killed him.
Shaak-Ti was able to stand her ground and almost defeated Starkiller. That is a very notable feat as he was arguably able to defeat Vader 1v1, but, at the very least, a match for Darth Vader in lightsaber combat and Darth Vader >>>>>>>>>>> Anakin.
First off, Starkiller is an abysmal lightsaber duelist. Second, Vader is NOT better in lightsaber combat than Anakin. They are even in both saber skill and force ability. Vader has destroyed a cathedral; Anakin moved a Conqueror-class dreadnaught. Anakin beat Cin Drallig and Dooku; Vader stalemated a version of Luke who was comparable in skill level to Dooku and Mace Windu. He also beat Roan Shryne. There is no great disparity.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
So, no. Shaak-Ti is not below Anakin, Plo Koon, or Obi-Wan. Ki-Adi-Mundi fought Ventress evenly and forced her to retreat.
No, she is. She has inferior feats to all of them.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
So, by your logic, Ki-Adi > Obi-Wan or Anakin. Neither Shaak-Ti nor Ki-Adi-Mundi are canon fodder.
This isn't what I was saying at all, and it is false. Anakin and Obi-Wan are both better than Mundi. Mundi is not "cannon fodder" either, but he is not as good as Anakin or Obi-Wan.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
Who cares whether Savage stomped Plo Koon. Plo Koon =/= Ki-Adi. Neither is he better in lightsaber combat. Not only that, but there are different lightsaber forms, so ABC logic does not apply. When did Obi-Wan fight evenly with Darth Maul?
You saying that Plo Koon is equal to Ki-Adi-Mundi only confirms that Obi-Wan is better, as he beat someone who curbstomped a Jedi Mundi is equal to.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
It isn't a bad comparison. GG > Ki-Adi-Mundi in lightsaber combat, so Ki-Adi would be fighting on GG's level, not the other way around. Unless you want to say it is the other way around, then that just means GG was toying with Ki-Adi so that it would be even. Either way, GG > Ki-Adi. Ki-Adi didn't even fight GG evenly for long. GG disarmed Ki-Adi rather quickly and almost killed him.
Yes it was. If Mundi is inferior to Grievous, than he would have lost. It is as simple as that. GG wanted to kill him, and was trying to do so. But he could not, just like how Mundi could not kill him. It was an impasse and they are even. You have failed to prove your point.
Shaak-Ti was able to stand her ground and almost defeated Starkiller. That is a very notable feat as he was arguably able to defeat Vader 1v1, but, at the very least, a match for Darth Vader in lightsaber combat and Darth Vader >>>>>>>>>>> Anakin.
First off, Starkiller is an abysmal lightsaber duelist. Second, Vader is NOT better in lightsaber combat than Anakin. They are even in both saber skill and force ability. Vader has destroyed a cathedral; Anakin moved a Conqueror-class dreadnaught. Anakin beat Cin Drallig and Dooku; Vader stalemated a version of Luke who was comparable in skill level to Dooku and Mace Windu. He also beat Roan Shryne. There is no great disparity.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
So, no. Shaak-Ti is not below Anakin, Plo Koon, or Obi-Wan. Ki-Adi-Mundi fought Ventress evenly and forced her to retreat.
No, she is. She has inferior feats to all of them.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
So, by your logic, Ki-Adi > Obi-Wan or Anakin. Neither Shaak-Ti nor Ki-Adi-Mundi are canon fodder.
This isn't what I was saying at all, and it is false. Anakin and Obi-Wan are both better than Mundi. Mundi is not "cannon fodder" either, but he is not as good as Anakin or Obi-Wan.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
Who cares whether Savage stomped Plo Koon. Plo Koon =/= Ki-Adi. Neither is he better in lightsaber combat. Not only that, but there are different lightsaber forms, so ABC logic does not apply. When did Obi-Wan fight evenly with Darth Maul?
You saying that Plo Koon is equal to Ki-Adi-Mundi only confirms that Obi-Wan is better, as he beat someone who curbstomped a Jedi Mundi is equal to.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
It isn't a bad comparison. GG > Ki-Adi-Mundi in lightsaber combat, so Ki-Adi would be fighting on GG's level, not the other way around. Unless you want to say it is the other way around, then that just means GG was toying with Ki-Adi so that it would be even. Either way, GG > Ki-Adi. Ki-Adi didn't even fight GG evenly for long. GG disarmed Ki-Adi rather quickly and almost killed him.
Yes it was. If Mundi is inferior to Grievous, than he would have lost. It is as simple as that. GG wanted to kill him, and was trying to do so. But he could not, just like how Mundi could not kill him. It was an impasse and they are even. You have failed to prove your point.
Where's Silver when I need him?
Starkiller is an abysmal lightsaber duelist? Lolno. Try again without sounding so biased and ignorant. Vader is better in lightsaber combat than Anakin. They are not equal in saber skill or force ability. Vader is greater in both. Anakin did not beat Cin, Darth Vader did. Anakin beat Dooku by drawing into the darkside. The fact that you think Anakin is equal to Vader just shows your lack of SW knowledge. Vader could have defeated Luke if he wanted to, but he was holding back. I believe Luke even states that. Not only this, but Vader was well past his prime when he stalemated Luke, who, as you just said "was comparable in skill level to Dooku and Mace Windu", which is another argument in itself.
Her feat vs Starkiller is greater than most, if not all, of theirs in 1v1. Judging by that fight, she is an above par lightsaber duelist.
Neither of them are shown to be better than Ki-Adi. You are biased and have presented nothing to say that Ki-Adi < Obi-Wan or Anakin. I just stated how Ki-Adi stalemated Asajj 1v1. Going by your logic, that means Ki-Adi > Obi-wan or Anakin because Asajj gives them trouble 2v1.
I never stated Plo Koon is equal to Ki-Adi. Don't put misconstrue things please.
He did lose. I don't understand where you think it was a stalemate or that Ki-Adi won. Ignorance is not bliss. Tell me how you think this is a stalemate in any way. Ki-Adi was getting roflstomped along with the other jedi helping him. The only reason GG didn't kill him was because of the Clones coming in to help.
Starkiller is an abysmal lightsaber duelist? Lolno. Try again without sounding so biased and ignorant.
It was not bias or ignorance, it was a statement based on viewing showings. He was doing poorly against Shaak Ti, who I have already said is not A-List. He was also doing poorly against Maris Brood, who happens to be featless. His victories over Rahm Kota and Kazdan Paratus mean little because they are featless in terms of lightsaber dueling. Finally, he nearly lost to Vader and likely won more because of his greater speed than anything else. So no, he is a poor duelist.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
Vader is better in lightsaber combat than Anakin. They are not equal in saber skill or force ability. Vader is greater in both. Anakin did not beat Cin, Darth Vader did. Anakin beat Dooku by drawing into the darkside. The fact that you think Anakin is equal to Vader just shows your lack of SW knowledge. Vader could have defeated Luke if he wanted to, but he was holding back. I believe Luke even states that. Not only this, but Vader was well past his prime when he stalemated Luke, who, as you just said "was comparable in skill level to Dooku and Mace Windu", which is another argument in itself.
Where to begin here? Perhaps I should rephrase what I had said: Pre-Mustafar Vader and Post-Mustafar Vader are equal. There, I changed his name. But they're the same person, with two different incarnations that are equal. And Pre-Mustafar DS Anakin is no better than LS Anakin, as it was LS Anakin who beat Dooku. That he was calling on the Dark Side a little bit does not mean he was not Anakin anymore.
Vader was not "well past his prime". It has been stated in the RotJ novelization that Vader was at his peak, not past his prime. Vader may have been holding back, but its a little ambiguous either way.
Oh, and calling someone ignorant is a poor way to debate.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
Her feat vs Starkiller is greater than most, if not all, of theirs in 1v1. Judging by that fight, she is an above par lightsaber duelist.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
Neither of them are shown to be better than Ki-Adi. You are biased and have presented nothing to say that Ki-Adi < Obi-Wan or Anakin. I just stated how Ki-Adi stalemated Asajj 1v1. Going by your logic, that means Ki-Adi > Obi-wan or Anakin because Asajj gives them trouble 2v1.
Except Anakin and Obi-Wan have each beaten Ventress individually. They are better than her, just marginally so. Mundi has only stalemated her, they have each beaten her. And again, they have also beaten and/or fought evenly against Savage Opress, Darth Maul, and Darth Tyranus. I am not being biased or ignorant anymore than you are. Again, namecalling is a poor counter-argument.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
I never stated Plo Koon is equal to Ki-Adi. Don't put misconstrue things please.
Plo Koon =/= Ki-Adi. That's what you said. If you wanted to say he was better, you use this symbol:
>
Not an =
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
He did lose. I don't understand where you think it was a stalemate or that Ki-Adi won. Ignorance is not bliss. Tell me how you think this is a stalemate in any way. Ki-Adi was getting roflstomped along with the other jedi helping him.
The end of that video has Mundi still on his feet and leaping at him. He did not lose. How can you sit there and tell me he lost and then show me a video that ends with both of them about to clash blades with one another? The next episode shows in no uncertain terms the two of them dueling and unable to defeat the other. It WAS an impasse. The video you posted proved nothing.
Shaak-Ti was able to stand her ground and almost defeated Starkiller. That is a very notable feat as he was arguably able to defeat Vader 1v1, but, at the very least, a match for Darth Vader in lightsaber combat and Darth Vader >>>>>>>>>>> Anakin. So, no. Shaak-Ti is not below Anakin, Plo Koon, or Obi-Wan. Ki-Adi-Mundi fought Ventress evenly and forced her to retreat. Ventress, as you said, regularly gives Obi-Wan and Anakin trouble 2v1. So, by your logic, Ki-Adi > Obi-Wan or Anakin. Neither Shaak-Ti nor Ki-Adi-Mundi are canon fodder.
Is this a serious assessment of character skill levels, or are you just reversing shroudofsorrow's logic to portray the ineptitude of it to him? Because, honestly, all of this is reprehensibly inaccurate.
Shaak fought evenly with and nearly outskilled Starkiller. Good for her. Kazdan Paratus was outmatching Starkiller when they crossed blades as well. Does that mean Paratus is comparable to Anakin or Obi-Wan? An Imperial Shadow Guard assumed the advantage over Starkiller in a brief duel once. Does that mean a paltry Shadow Guard is comparable to Anakin or Obi-Wan? More importantly, you are aware that Anakin drove Shaak Ti away during his raid on the Jedi Temple during Order 66, yes? By the same token, applying this ABC logic, Grievous defeated Shaak twice without much difficulty, yet Obi-Wan defeated Grievous. Therefore, Obi-Wan>Grievous>Shaak, judging by this line of reasoning. Simply put, Starkiller's duel with Vader is not indicative of his standard skill level. The only reason he managed to fight evenly with Vader was due to his familiarity with Vader's form, his abuse of his Force attacks, and superior combat speed. All of the other combatants Starkiller engaged in one on one duels were against mediocre to average fighters. I elucidated on that in more detail here. Really, Shaak has accomplished nothing as a duelist that is even worth mentioning. Losing to Grievous twice, being driven off by Anakin, and struggling with Starkiller are hardly exemplary showings. Yes, she is below Anakin and Obi-Wan.
Ki-Adi never forced Ventress to retreat in a duel. The two only dueled for a few panels before clone troopers in a gunship began firing at Asajj, which prompted her to leap up to the gunship to kill the clones. That in no way is equivalent to Ki-Adi "forcing her to retreat." All it is is outside interference on a duel which favored one party over another.
Anakin did not beat Cin, Darth Vader did.
Not entirely sure what this should contextually refer to within your post, but the Vader that defeated Cin Drallig is not the same Vader that dueled Starkiller or Luke. They fight very differently. Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader expressed at length how Vader was forced to improvise his lightsaber technique on account of his cybernetic limbs Post-Mustafar. Conversely, the only difference in combative style between Anakin and Pre-Mustafar Vader is that Pre-Mustafar Vader ceases to restrain himself. That being the case, I would count defeating Drallig is more of a feat for Anakin/Pre-Mustafar Vader than Post-Mustafar Vader, if that was your point.
Time and again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry, and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable.
--Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader
They are not equal in saber skill or force ability. The fact that you think Anakin is equal to Vader just shows your lack of SW knowledge
Really? So if I portend that Anakin and Vader are rough equals, that renders me ignorant on the lore?
Vader's best feat of raw Force power was collapsing a cathedral; Anakin collapsed a thirty meter high and ninety meter wide dome facility with a Force Scream. Vader has thrown Y-Wings and V-Wings; Anakin has moved Conquerer-class dreadnaughts and moved immense escape pods. Vader has telepathically probed Luke's mind; Anakin has telepathically probed Obi-Wan's mind. Vader has deflected blaster fire from more than a dozen enemies shooting at him simultaneously; Anakin has deflected blaster fire from small armies shooting at him. Vader has ripped doors off ships and pulled down crystalline pillars; Anakin has struck with the force of a meteor strike and torn apart spider droids. I fail to see where this alleged disparity in power you suggest comes from. Vader is more versatile and masterful with the Force than Anakin is, which lends reliability to his list of assets, but Anakin possesses more potential and reserves with the Force than Vader does, which lends resourcefulness to his list of assets.
On skill? Vader has beaten four Jedi simultaneously, fought evenly with an amped Darth Maul, fought evenly with Luke, beaten the Dark Woman, etc. Anakin has beaten multiple MagnaGuards simultaneously, fought evenly with Obi-Wan, fought evenly with Dooku, beaten Ventress, (defeated Cin Drallig if you include that for Anakin, which you should considering Pre-Mustafar Vader fights very differently than Post-Mustafar Vader), etc. Once again, Vader's technical knowledge transcends Anakin's, but Anakin's agility and movement speed transcend Vader's.
The two are rather even in feat comparison; their high end feats measured against one another's are near to mirroring the other's. And their differences in approach make them more ambiguously superior to the other than definitively. A case could be made for either Anakin or Vader superseding the other.
Anakin beat Dooku by drawing into the darkside.
Anakin beat Dooku by drawing on the dark side, but he was already well able to press challenge to Dooku, as exposited on in Most Precious Weapon and the AotC novelization, and fight evenly with him, as he has in TCW.
Vader could have defeated Luke if he wanted to, but he was holding back. I believe Luke even states that.
All Vader held back against Luke was offensive Force power, not lightsaber skill, and Luke withheld his own offensive Force abilities as well. Concerning the aggressiveness of his ligthsaber advancement, Vader was perfectly willing to kill Luke. Again, I covered this elsewhere. @Silver2467 said:
Vader's loss to Luke was circumstantial, not the fact that Luke could contend with him, and the only circumstantial factor about it was that Luke decided to harness the dark side against Vader, an optional source of power he is perfectly capable of extracting energy from without any external circumstances inhibiting Vader. Vader lost to Luke because Luke adopted a dark side-extracted ferocity, and that was the long and short of the circumstantial factors surrounding it. However, Luke was perfectly capable of fighting Vader on even terms. The only single time Luke has ever indicated he would have stood no chance against Vader was in The Courtship of Princess Leia, and within that book, Luke also said that he has never cut loose with his powers before, not even against Vader or the Emperor. So if your excuse for Vader's loss is that he held back on the grounds of Luke's report of the event, Luke held back too on the witness of that same summary. Furthermore, all Luke implied in Courtship was that Vader withheld application of his offensive Force powers, such as TK or Alter Environment, such as Vader exhibited during their duel on Bespin. But if you read their duel, Luke withheld his own offensive Force powers as well; so that argument garners no credence in way of the merits of your suggestion. Objective sources have told us time and again that Luke and Vader were perfect equals in a duel in RotJ. There is simply no dodging this fact. Luke was Vader's equal.
The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match, and, once again, the Sith Lord found his thoughts straying to an alliance between them against the Emperor.
Luke had indeed grown powerful since Bespin, and he was an equal match for his father.
--Taken from The Official Star Wars Fact File #111
Gallery
Other sources have told us very plainly that Vader was the aggressor and was in fact willing to kill Luke in the duration of their duel.
Slowly, Luke and Vader circled. Lightsaber high above his head, Luke readied his attack from classic first-position; the Dark Lord held a lateral stance, in classic answer. Without announcement, Luke brought his blade straight down—then, when Vader moved to parry, Luke feinted and cut low. Vader counterparried, let the impact direct his sword toward Luke's throat... but Luke met the riposte and stepped back. The first blows, traded without injury. Again, they circled. Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first—training by both Vader and Palpatine—before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the galaxy. So Vader had to shepherd the boy through periods like this, stop him from doing damage in the wrong places—or in the right places prematurely. Before Vader could gather his thoughts much further, though, Luke attacked again—much more aggressively. He advanced in a flurry of lunges, each met with a loud crack of Vader's phosphorescent saber. The Dark Lord retreated a step at every slash, swiveling once to bring his cutting beam up viciously—but Luke batted it away, pushing Vader back yet again. The Lord of the Sith momentarily lost his footing on the stairs and tumbled to his knees. Luke stood above him, at the top of the staircase, heady with his own power. It was in his hands, now, he knew it was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life. Take his place at the Emperor's side. Yes, even that. Luke didn't bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it. He engorged himself with its juices, felt its power tingle his cheeks. It made him feverish, this thought, with lust so overpowering as to totally obliterate all other considerations. He had the power; the choice was his. And then another thought emerged, slowly compulsive as an ardent lover: he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy them both, and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer. It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did not swoon. Nor did he recoil. He took one step forward. For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City—not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge. These things were mirrored, each facet, by the young Jedi who now towered above him. The Emperor, watching joyously, saw this, and goaded Luke on to revel in his Darkness. “Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Yes! Let the hate flow through you! Become one with it, let it nourish you!” Luke faltered a moment—then realized what was happening. He was suddenly confused again. What did he want? What should he do? His brief exultation, his microsecond of dark clarity—gone, now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma. Cold awakening from a passionate flirtation. He took a step back, lowered his sword, relaxed, and tried to drive the hatred from his being. In that instant, Vader attacked. He lunged half up the stairs, forcing Luke to reverse defensively. He bound the boy's blade with his own, but Luke disengaged and leaped to the safety of an overhead gantry. Vader jumped over the railing to the floor beneath the platform on which Luke stood. “I will not fight you, Father,” Luke stated. “You are unwise to lower your defenses,” Vader warned. His anger was layered, now—he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight...then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.
--Taken from Return of the Jedi
Palpatine patted Luke's captured lightsaber as it lay on the arm of his chair, then ordered the Death Star's gunners to fire the station's superlaser at the orbiting Rebel cruisers. With this latest provocation, Luke couldn't help but act. And if he struck out in anger, as Anakin Skywalker had done in a desperate bid to stop Mace Windu, he would be lost to the dark side forever. At last Luke called the saber to his hand with the Force. Vader was waiting on the downswing, intercepting Luke's green blade before it could bisect Palpatine's head. The Emperor cackled with pleasure, showing a mouthful of ruined teeth. The battle between Luke and Vader raged throughout the throne room. Vader pressed the attack at every turn, but Luke held back, even ducking beneath a shadowed staircase when the fighting grew too intense. Vader again took the offensive, this time with words. Sensing that his son had been holding back, he attempted a mental probe, and arrived at an inescapable and astonishing deduction. Padme had given birth to twins. A daughter. He knew nothing about her, but the Skywalker bloodline suggested she would make a suitable apprentice. Perhaps she could provide the missing piece in the fulfillment of Vader's vision, and the two of them could rule the galaxy as father and daughter. Luke's scream of pure rage stunned Vader. It was all he could do to ward off his son's blows as Luke advanced on him, roiling Force energy leading him like a wave front. Retreating to the dead end of the core shaft railing, Vader cried in shock as Luke severed his wrist, taking his lightsaber with it.
--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide
At best, you could argue that Vader is more powerful in raw destructive power than Luke is, but then, your only source for that is a character statement. I could just as easily show you Cronal's musings where he submits that Luke is already more powerful than Vader. Besides, we saw what happened when Luke ceased to hold back anyway. If he wanted to kill Vader in their last duel, he could have. Luke and Vader are equals in a fight. Their duel proves that very conclusively.
Not only this, but Vader was well past his prime when he stalemated Luke
Check your facts. Vader was not past his prime in Return of the Jedi; Return of the Jedi is precisely when Vader reached his prime.
Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power, it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground...but he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.
--Taken from Return of the Jedi
Vader's combative skills also grew tremendously after ANH.
By the time of the Battle of Hoth, Darth Vader has consolidated his position within the Empire as the favored agent of the Emperor. Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique.Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.
--Taken from Insider #62
Her feat vs Starkiller is greater than most, if not all, of theirs in 1v1. Judging by that fight, she is an above par lightsaber duelist.
Nonsense. Starkiller is a mediocre duelist. His duels with such average and featless opponents as Paratus, Kota, and Maris evince that. You are basically isolating Starkiller's one high end skill showing of dueling Vader while ignoring all circumstances surrounding that duel and attributing the lightsaber prowess you infer from that duel for Starkiller to Shaak Ti. The premise of the argument is ludicrous to begin with, let alone the various applications of it that would need to be apply to uphold that standard of reason. Once again, nothing implicates that Paratus or any of the other Jedi Starkiller dueled could rival Anakin or Obi-Wan.
@shroudofsorrow said:
Where's Silver when I need him?
Don't presume I would side with you on this. I might be attempting to correct ImBoredLetsDebate, but I do that out of a confidence that he is willing to consider other possibilities. Your assessment on Grievous is still wrong, but, no disrespect, I just lack the same confidence in the idea that debating with you would be a productive use of time.
Starkiller is an abysmal lightsaber duelist? Lolno. Try again without sounding so biased and ignorant.
It was not bias or ignorance, it was a statement based on viewing showings. He was doing poorly against Shaak Ti, who I have already said is not A-List. He was also doing poorly against Maris Brood, who happens to be featless. His victories over Rahm Kota and Kazdan Paratus mean little because they are featless in terms of lightsaber dueling. Finally, he nearly lost to Vader and likely won more because of his greater speed than anything else. So no, he is a poor duelist.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
Vader is better in lightsaber combat than Anakin. They are not equal in saber skill or force ability. Vader is greater in both. Anakin did not beat Cin, Darth Vader did. Anakin beat Dooku by drawing into the darkside. The fact that you think Anakin is equal to Vader just shows your lack of SW knowledge. Vader could have defeated Luke if he wanted to, but he was holding back. I believe Luke even states that. Not only this, but Vader was well past his prime when he stalemated Luke, who, as you just said "was comparable in skill level to Dooku and Mace Windu", which is another argument in itself.
Where to begin here? Perhaps I should rephrase what I had said: Pre-Mustafar Vader and Post-Mustafar Vader are equal. There, I changed his name. But they're the same person, with two different incarnations that are equal. And Pre-Mustafar DS Anakin is no better than LS Anakin, as it was LS Anakin who beat Dooku. That he was calling on the Dark Side a little bit does not mean he was not Anakin anymore.
Vader was not "well past his prime". It has been stated in the RotJ novelization that Vader was at his peak, not past his prime. Vader may have been holding back, but its a little ambiguous either way.
Oh, and calling someone ignorant is a poor way to debate.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
Her feat vs Starkiller is greater than most, if not all, of theirs in 1v1. Judging by that fight, she is an above par lightsaber duelist.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
Neither of them are shown to be better than Ki-Adi. You are biased and have presented nothing to say that Ki-Adi < Obi-Wan or Anakin. I just stated how Ki-Adi stalemated Asajj 1v1. Going by your logic, that means Ki-Adi > Obi-wan or Anakin because Asajj gives them trouble 2v1.
Except Anakin and Obi-Wan have each beaten Ventress individually. They are better than her, just marginally so. Mundi has only stalemated her, they have each beaten her. And again, they have also beaten and/or fought evenly against Savage Opress, Darth Maul, and Darth Tyranus. I am not being biased or ignorant anymore than you are. Again, namecalling is a poor counter-argument.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
I never stated Plo Koon is equal to Ki-Adi. Don't put misconstrue things please.
Plo Koon =/= Ki-Adi. That's what you said. If you wanted to say he was better, you use this symbol:
>
Not an =
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
He did lose. I don't understand where you think it was a stalemate or that Ki-Adi won. Ignorance is not bliss. Tell me how you think this is a stalemate in any way. Ki-Adi was getting roflstomped along with the other jedi helping him.
The end of that video has Mundi still on his feet and leaping at him. He did not lose. How can you sit there and tell me he lost and then show me a video that ends with both of them about to clash blades with one another? The next episode shows in no uncertain terms the two of them dueling and unable to defeat the other. It WAS an impasse. The video you posted proved nothing.
Yes, let's ignore his fight against Darth Vader because he was faster than him. MakeSense.jpg
Whether he did poorly or not is irrelevant. He still defeated her, and he wasn't in his prime when he did so.
So, first you say Anakin and Vader are equal, then you say that Pre-Mustafar and Post-Mustafar Vader are equal, then say RotJ is when he was in his prime, as stated by the novel. Pick one. You are contradicting yourself a lot. And that does say something. That says that Anakin drawing on the darkside > Anakin drawing on the lightside. Also, "calling on the Dark Side a little bit". Where do you get he was only doing it a little bit? Quote from a canon source where it says that please.
I was wrong then, but that still doesn't change the fact that he was holding back vs Luke, as Luke said that Vader was.
Being ignorant is a poor way to debate also, but that is quite obviously going both ways, so I take it back.
You gonna prove me wrong or...?
Ki-Adi-Mundi made her retreat. I would call that a defeat.
Obi-Wan was getting owned in Eps. 1 when he fought Maul until Maul got too arrogant and when he was fighting against him with Ventress. He was on the retreat a lot of the time when fighting Opress and Maul with Adi.
Yes, I said Plo =/= Ki-Adi. Meaning, Plo does not equal Ki-Adi. I wanted to say that Plo does not equal Ki-Adi, and that is what I said.
I edited it because that was the wrong video. Check the video again. GG is on top of Ki-Adi about to kill him, but then the clones show up.
Shaak-Ti was able to stand her ground and almost defeated Starkiller. That is a very notable feat as he was arguably able to defeat Vader 1v1, but, at the very least, a match for Darth Vader in lightsaber combat and Darth Vader >>>>>>>>>>> Anakin. So, no. Shaak-Ti is not below Anakin, Plo Koon, or Obi-Wan. Ki-Adi-Mundi fought Ventress evenly and forced her to retreat. Ventress, as you said, regularly gives Obi-Wan and Anakin trouble 2v1. So, by your logic, Ki-Adi > Obi-Wan or Anakin. Neither Shaak-Ti nor Ki-Adi-Mundi are canon fodder.
Is this a serious assessment of character skill levels, or are you just reversing shroudofsorrow's logic to portray the ineptitude of it to him? Because, honestly, all of this is reprehensibly inaccurate.
Shaak fought evenly with and nearly outskilled Starkiller. Good for her. Kazdan Paratus was outmatching Starkiller when they crossed blades as well. Does that mean Paratus is comparable to Anakin or Obi-Wan? An Imperial Shadow Guard assumed the advantage over Starkiller in a brief duel once. Does that mean a paltry Shadow Guard is comparable to Anakin or Obi-Wan? More importantly, you are aware that Anakin drove Shaak Ti away during his raid on the Jedi Temple during Order 66, yes? By the same token, applying this ABC logic, Grievous defeated Shaak twice without much difficulty, yet Obi-Wan defeated Grievous. Therefore, Obi-Wan>Grievous>Shaak, judging by this line of reasoning. Simply put, Starkiller's duel with Vader is not indicative of his standard skill level. The only reason he managed to fight evenly with Vader was due to his familiarity with Vader's form, his abuse of his Force attacks, and superior combat speed. All of the other combatants Starkiller engaged in one on one duels were against mediocre to average fighters. I elucidated on that in more detail here. Really, Shaak has accomplished nothing as a duelist that is even worth mentioning. Losing to Grievous twice, being driven off by Anakin, and struggling with Starkiller are hardly exemplary showings. Yes, she is below Anakin and Obi-Wan.
Ki-Adi never forced Ventress to retreat in a duel. The two only dueled for a few panels before clone troopers in a gunship began firing at Asajj, which prompted her to leap up to the gunship to kill the clones. That in no way is equivalent to Ki-Adi "forcing her to retreat." All it is is outside interference on a duel which favored one party over another.
Anakin did not beat Cin, Darth Vader did.
Not entirely sure what this should contextually refer to within your post, but the Vader that defeated Cin Drallig is not the same Vader that dueled Starkiller or Luke. They fight very differently. Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader expressed at length how Vader was forced to improvise his lightsaber technique on account of his cybernetic limbs Post-Mustafar. Conversely, the only difference in combative style between Anakin and Pre-Mustafar Vader is that Pre-Mustafar Vader ceases to restrain himself. That being the case, I would count defeating Drallig is more of a feat for Anakin/Pre-Mustafar Vader than Post-Mustafar Vader, if that was your point.
Time and again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry, and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable.
--Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader
They are not equal in saber skill or force ability. The fact that you think Anakin is equal to Vader just shows your lack of SW knowledge
Really? So if I portend that Anakin and Vader are rough equals, that renders me ignorant on the lore?
Vader's best feat of raw Force power was collapsing a cathedral; Anakin collapsed a thirty meter high and ninety meter wide dome facility with a Force Scream. Vader has thrown Y-Wings and V-Wings; Anakin has moved Conquerer-class dreadnaughts and moved immense escape pods. Vader has telepathically probed Luke's mind; Anakin has telepathically probed Obi-Wan's mind. Vader has deflected blaster fire from more than a dozen enemies shooting at him simultaneously; Anakin has deflected blaster fire from small armies shooting at him. Vader has ripped doors off ships and pulled down crystalline pillars; Anakin has struck with the force of a meteor strike and torn apart spider droids. I fail to see where this alleged disparity in power you suggest comes from. Vader is more versatile and masterful with the Force than Anakin is, which lends reliability to his list of assets, but Anakin possesses more potential and reserves with the Force than Vader does, which lends resourcefulness to his list of assets.
On skill? Vader has beaten four Jedi simultaneously, fought evenly with an amped Darth Maul, fought evenly with Luke, beaten the Dark Woman, etc. Anakin has beaten multiple MagnaGuards simultaneously, fought evenly with Obi-Wan, fought evenly with Dooku, beaten Ventress, (defeated Cin Drallig if you include that for Anakin, which you should considering Pre-Mustafar Vader fights very differently than Post-Mustafar Vader), etc. Once again, Vader's technical knowledge transcends Anakin's, but Anakin's agility and movement speed transcend Vader's.
The two are rather even in feat comparison; their high end feats measured against one another's are near to mirroring the other's. And their differences in approach make them more ambiguously superior to the other than definitively. A case could be made for either Anakin or Vader superseding the other.
Anakin beat Dooku by drawing into the darkside.
Anakin beat Dooku by drawing on the dark side, but he was already well able to press challenge to Dooku, as exposited on in Most Precious Weapon and the AotC novelization, and fight evenly with him, as he has in TCW.
Vader could have defeated Luke if he wanted to, but he was holding back. I believe Luke even states that.
All Vader held back against Luke was offensive Force power, not lightsaber skill, and Luke withheld his own offensive Force abilities as well. Concerning the aggressiveness of his ligthsaber advancement, Vader was perfectly willing to kill Luke. Again, I covered this elsewhere. @Silver2467 said:
Vader's loss to Luke was circumstantial, not the fact that Luke could contend with him, and the only circumstantial factor about it was that Luke decided to harness the dark side against Vader, an optional source of power he is perfectly capable of extracting energy from without any external circumstances inhibiting Vader. Vader lost to Luke because Luke adopted a dark side-extracted ferocity, and that was the long and short of the circumstantial factors surrounding it. However, Luke was perfectly capable of fighting Vader on even terms. The only single time Luke has ever indicated he would have stood no chance against Vader was in The Courtship of Princess Leia, and within that book, Luke also said that he has never cut loose with his powers before, not even against Vader or the Emperor. So if your excuse for Vader's loss is that he held back on the grounds of Luke's report of the event, Luke held back too on the witness of that same summary. Furthermore, all Luke implied in Courtship was that Vader withheld application of his offensive Force powers, such as TK or Alter Environment, such as Vader exhibited during their duel on Bespin. But if you read their duel, Luke withheld his own offensive Force powers as well; so that argument garners no credence in way of the merits of your suggestion. Objective sources have told us time and again that Luke and Vader were perfect equals in a duel in RotJ. There is simply no dodging this fact. Luke was Vader's equal.
The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match, and, once again, the Sith Lord found his thoughts straying to an alliance between them against the Emperor.
Luke had indeed grown powerful since Bespin, and he was an equal match for his father.
--Taken from The Official Star Wars Fact File #111
Gallery
Other sources have told us very plainly that Vader was the aggressor and was in fact willing to kill Luke in the duration of their duel.
Slowly, Luke and Vader circled. Lightsaber high above his head, Luke readied his attack from classic first-position; the Dark Lord held a lateral stance, in classic answer. Without announcement, Luke brought his blade straight down—then, when Vader moved to parry, Luke feinted and cut low. Vader counterparried, let the impact direct his sword toward Luke's throat... but Luke met the riposte and stepped back. The first blows, traded without injury. Again, they circled. Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first—training by both Vader and Palpatine—before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the galaxy. So Vader had to shepherd the boy through periods like this, stop him from doing damage in the wrong places—or in the right places prematurely. Before Vader could gather his thoughts much further, though, Luke attacked again—much more aggressively. He advanced in a flurry of lunges, each met with a loud crack of Vader's phosphorescent saber. The Dark Lord retreated a step at every slash, swiveling once to bring his cutting beam up viciously—but Luke batted it away, pushing Vader back yet again. The Lord of the Sith momentarily lost his footing on the stairs and tumbled to his knees. Luke stood above him, at the top of the staircase, heady with his own power. It was in his hands, now, he knew it was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life. Take his place at the Emperor's side. Yes, even that. Luke didn't bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it. He engorged himself with its juices, felt its power tingle his cheeks. It made him feverish, this thought, with lust so overpowering as to totally obliterate all other considerations. He had the power; the choice was his. And then another thought emerged, slowly compulsive as an ardent lover: he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy them both, and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer. It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did not swoon. Nor did he recoil. He took one step forward. For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City—not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge. These things were mirrored, each facet, by the young Jedi who now towered above him. The Emperor, watching joyously, saw this, and goaded Luke on to revel in his Darkness. “Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Yes! Let the hate flow through you! Become one with it, let it nourish you!” Luke faltered a moment—then realized what was happening. He was suddenly confused again. What did he want? What should he do? His brief exultation, his microsecond of dark clarity—gone, now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma. Cold awakening from a passionate flirtation. He took a step back, lowered his sword, relaxed, and tried to drive the hatred from his being. In that instant, Vader attacked. He lunged half up the stairs, forcing Luke to reverse defensively. He bound the boy's blade with his own, but Luke disengaged and leaped to the safety of an overhead gantry. Vader jumped over the railing to the floor beneath the platform on which Luke stood. “I will not fight you, Father,” Luke stated. “You are unwise to lower your defenses,” Vader warned. His anger was layered, now—he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight...then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.
--Taken from Return of the Jedi
Palpatine patted Luke's captured lightsaber as it lay on the arm of his chair, then ordered the Death Star's gunners to fire the station's superlaser at the orbiting Rebel cruisers. With this latest provocation, Luke couldn't help but act. And if he struck out in anger, as Anakin Skywalker had done in a desperate bid to stop Mace Windu, he would be lost to the dark side forever. At last Luke called the saber to his hand with the Force. Vader was waiting on the downswing, intercepting Luke's green blade before it could bisect Palpatine's head. The Emperor cackled with pleasure, showing a mouthful of ruined teeth. The battle between Luke and Vader raged throughout the throne room. Vader pressed the attack at every turn, but Luke held back, even ducking beneath a shadowed staircase when the fighting grew too intense. Vader again took the offensive, this time with words. Sensing that his son had been holding back, he attempted a mental probe, and arrived at an inescapable and astonishing deduction. Padme had given birth to twins. A daughter. He knew nothing about her, but the Skywalker bloodline suggested she would make a suitable apprentice. Perhaps she could provide the missing piece in the fulfillment of Vader's vision, and the two of them could rule the galaxy as father and daughter. Luke's scream of pure rage stunned Vader. It was all he could do to ward off his son's blows as Luke advanced on him, roiling Force energy leading him like a wave front. Retreating to the dead end of the core shaft railing, Vader cried in shock as Luke severed his wrist, taking his lightsaber with it.
--Taken from Vader: The Ultimate Guide
At best, you could argue that Vader is more powerful in raw destructive power than Luke is, but then, your only source for that is a character statement. I could just as easily show you Cronal's musings where he submits that Luke is already more powerful than Vader. Besides, we saw what happened when Luke ceased to hold back anyway. If he wanted to kill Vader in their last duel, he could have. Luke and Vader are equals in a fight. Their duel proves that very conclusively.
Not only this, but Vader was well past his prime when he stalemated Luke
Check your facts. Vader was not past his prime in Return of the Jedi; Return of the Jedi is precisely when Vader reached his prime.
Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel a this ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power, it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground...but he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.
--Taken from Return of the Jedi
Vader's combative skills also grew tremendously after ANH.
By the time of the Battle of Hoth, Darth Vader has consolidated his position within the Empire as the favored agent of the Emperor. Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique.Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.
--Taken from Insider #62
Her feat vs Starkiller is greater than most, if not all, of theirs in 1v1. Judging by that fight, she is an above par lightsaber duelist.
Nonsense. Starkiller is a mediocre duelist. His duels with such average and featless opponents as Paratus, Khota, and Maris evince that. You are basically isolating Starkiller's one high end skill showing of dueling Vader while ignoring all circumstances surrounding that duel and attributing the lightsaber prowess you infer from that duel for Starkiller to Shaak Ti. The premise of the argument is ludicrous to begin with, let alone the various applications of it that would need to be apply to uphold that standard of reason. Once again, nothing implicates that Paratus or any of the other Jedi Starkiller dueled could rival Anakin or Obi-Wan.
@shroudofsorrow said:
Where's Silver when I need him?
Don't presume I would side with you on this. I might be attempting to correct ImBoredLetsDebate, but I do that out of a confidence that he is willing to consider other possibilities. Your assessment on Grievous is still wrong, but, no disrespect, I just lack the same confidence in the idea that debating with you would be a productive use of time.
Ehh, I was wrong a lot :(
But I still believe that one version of GG is more powerful than the others, and that version would win 10/10 here, and the other 2 would win the majority. Also, I still disagree with his ABC logic (which I was partially mocking in my first paragraph) when ABC logic doesn't take into account the different lightsaber forms, their advantages, and their disadvantages.
Regardless I now love you to death for coming to my rescue.
@Silver2467 said:
Your assessment on Grievous is still wrong
How am I wrong about Grievous? I need a counterargument. His fights against Mace happened after his losing to Ventress on Dathomir, and Mace Windu is only marginally better than Ventress anyway. The version of her Grievous beat was an inferior version by way of losing to a version of Anakin inferior to the one she has stalemated. So how am I wrong?
@Silver2467 said:
I just lack the same confidence in the idea that debating with you would be a productive use of time
I do take offense to this. What did I do? And I am willing to consider alternate possibilities, you just have to show them to me.
Sheesh, back such a short time, already out of favor.
But I still believe that one version of GG is more powerful than the others, and that version would win 10/10 here, and the other 2 would win the majority. Also, I still disagree with his ABC logic (which I was partially mocking in my first paragraph) when ABC logic doesn't take into account the different lightsaber forms, their advantages, and their disadvantages.
I agree with you, particularly on the bolded part. Pre-TCW Grievous vastly exceeds TCW Grievous.
@Silver2467: I say again: what is the evidence for that? I have given my argument for why I believe Grievous did not get weaker, and have gotten no counterargument. Only continued assertions that he got weaker. I need evidence. If you can give me that, I will wholeheartedly back down and agree with what everyone else is saying. But no one has yet given me an argument, so how can I be expected to change my views on the matter?
@shroudofsorrow: There's really nothing to be said here. Grievous in pre-TCW has far better feats than TCW Grievous, who regularly jobs and fails to finish beings like Ahsoka.
@ShootingNova: I listed his feats. There is no inconsistency between any of them. Regarding Ahsoka, he WOULD have finished her during their first duel and in duel #2 he had her on the defensive the whole time and ultimately forced her to retreat. So near as I can tell he's still better. Mundi is below Ventress, and the version of Ventress Grievous lost to is better than the one he curbstomped. His fights with Mace Windu happened after the CW show, and Mace is only marginally better than Kit Fisto and Asajj Ventress anyway. So where is this massive gap in power? Because I just don't see it.
Remember, Grevious took on Ki Adi Mundi, AND Shak Ti, AND a handful of other jedi, and forced them to flee. Grevious would definitely give these guys a run for there money.
@ShootingNova: I listed his feats. There is no inconsistency between any of them. Regarding Ahsoka, he WOULD have finished her during their first duel and in duel #2 he had her on the defensive the whole time and ultimately forced her to retreat. So near as I can tell he's still better. Mundi is below Ventress, and the version of Ventress Grievous lost to is better than the one he curbstomped. His fights with Mace Windu happened after the CW show, and Mace is only marginally better than Kit Fisto and Asajj Ventress anyway. So where is this massive gap in power? Because I just don't see it.
Except most of the you use as evidence is conjecture. Just like now when you say that Mace is only marginally better than Kit Fisto and Ventress, like Mundi being below Plo Koon, etc.
You also never made a good counter-argument against how GG curbstomped 2 Jedi masters and several other jedi at the same time.
@ImBoredLetsDebate: I don't know why I'm continuing this, but...
...because Shaak Ti is a subpar lightsaber duelist and Mundi is little better. Mace, Kit, and Ventress are all vastly superior. This is not conjecture, this is a judgment that has come about by examining feats. Same with Mace being only marginally better than Ventress and Kit. That's going by feats.
Honestly, the fact that you still seem incapable of realizing that Shaak Ti is not good and neither were any of the Jedi Grievous beat on Hypori except for Mundi tells me that I'm wasting my time. I'm done with this debate unless its Silver of SN responding to my posts. Simple as that.
@ImBoredLetsDebate: I don't know why I'm continuing this, but...
...because Shaak Ti is a subpar lightsaber duelist and Mundi is little better. Mace, Kit, and Ventress are all vastly superior. This is not conjecture, this is a judgment that has come about by examining feats. Same with Mace being only marginally better than Ventress and Kit. That's going by feats.
Honestly, the fact that you still seem incapable of realizing that Shaak Ti is not good and neither were any of the Jedi Grievous beat on Hypori except for Mundi tells me that I'm wasting my time. I'm done with this debate unless its Silver of SN responding to my posts. Simple as that.
All you've done to say Plo Koon > Ki-Adi is that because Plo Koon beat [insert name] that means he is better than Mundi. Mundi was stalemating Ventress during their duel, and you say Ventress is apparently an A grade duelist. Like I said, your argument has been riddled with inconsistencies; too many for me to want to list and address. You also have a hard time proving anything or accepting something that is against what you think. Furthermore, you have provided no evidence that Mace is barely above Ventress and Kit in lightsaber combat or just overall.
TryHarder.jpg
I also find it funny that you will agree with Silver being one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum in regards to SW, ride Silver's jock when he agrees with something you say, or if you think he might agree with what you say, but then when he disagrees with what you say, apparently he hasn't thought it through enough and/or he forgot all the knowledge he had about SW.
The Jedi. I think Grievous would have difficulty with Plo alone. Luminara would certainly tip the balance in the Jedi's favor. Her form, Soresu, would not be hammered by Grievous' onslaught. Plo would lose in an outright saber duel to Grievous, but would win due to his Electric Judgement. 7/10 for Jedi.
Plo Koon solos with considerable difficulty. Not only is Luminara skilled enough to pose a significant challenge to Grievous by herself, she also sports an influentially large form advantage. Grievous has no chance whatsoever. Team 10/10.
Log in to comment