no lightsabers, no phasers, no star wars blasters just their own skills, abilities and what their environment gives them(such as pipes or sticks or rocks or cables, not that that would help .)
General grievous vs Data
" @superdemon said:As you can see, Erik thinks otherwise.What reasons do you need? Just check their profiles here: http://www.comicvine.com/data/29-20109/ http://www.comicvine.com/general-grievous/29-44582/ General is more advanced and created to fight. "" Let's hear some reasons, people. lmao "
Personally, I can't call it. I need to think about this fight or hear more opinions.
Grevious while a battle droid is specificly used to using energy based weapons to do his damage i cant remember him doing any real damage with just his body. Date has raw pyshcila power and could easily tear through the generals armour with his bare hands. However he would have to get past the arms first.
Grievous seems to have strong legs, at least, from the way he kicked Obi-Wan. Not necessarily stronger than Data though, who has over powered Klingons and Borg drones without much trouble, as well as a car at one point, and I don't remember Greivous' arms doing much, and I would expect them to be weaker than his legs anyway.
However, Data is capable of moving his arms fast enough to make them blur (and I don't just mean spinning in circles like Grievous, I mean actually carrying out operations), so he's got a speed advantage, and he's smarter, and much, much braver. Not sure about overall durability, but Greivous has the rathe obvious weakness of having his heart right out in the open (yeesh, who's brilliant idea was that?).
Yeah, I vote Data. Although Grievous could definitely run away faster.
" Data is more durable and Grievous has no significant strength feats to overpower Data either. "
I know nothing about Data; so how strong exactly is he? Because Grievous is fairly strong, fast, and durable.
Lol I was pulling knowledge from the movies. Are those comics even Star Wars canon? They seem Clone Wars cartoon canon. As far as I knew, those are not hard canon to the mainstream universe.
As far as Data's strength, he has a few notable feats such as lifting several tons over his head. Most of the time, they are during instances where a Starfleet officer is trapped and is unable to move an object. Even when things were too heavy for Worf (who is a great deal stronger than a human) to budge, Data picks them up like nothing.
Then his durability feats are extremely impressive for an android. He has never been physically damaged (beyond superficial damage) throughout the series. Taking gunfire with a smile, being brained by a Klingon headbutt and several others.
Then there is Data's speed. He can move too fast for a human to follow as previously stated.
No agility feats that I can remember though. I also am not sure how much of the books and comic books can be used as evidence here but if they can, Data has even more feats that are much more impressive.
The TV show is T-Canon (Television canon), and no comic is in that canon class. The comic I posted scans from is Clone Wars Adventures, which is C-Canon (as are most comics). But actually, T-Canon is a higher canon class than C-Canon is. So, actually, the TV show is more canon than comics are. This will give you a decent idea of the canon classes." @Silver2467: Lol I was pulling knowledge from the movies. Are those comics even Star Wars canon? They seem Clone Wars cartoon canon. As far as I knew, those are not hard canon to the mainstream universe.
http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/silver2467/star-wars-canon-classes/87-64300/
Alright. I may agree he wins then. I know of some impressive speed, strength, durability, and agility feats for Grievous, but I have none on hand. And based on what you told me, Data may be stronger than him and possibly more durable.As far as Data's strength, he has a few notable feats such as lifting several tons over his head. Most of the time, they are during instances where a Starfleet officer is trapped and is unable to move an object. Even when things were too heavy for Worf (who is a great deal stronger than a human) to budge, Data picks them up like nothing. Then his durability feats are extremely impressive for an android. He has never been physically damaged (beyond superficial damage) throughout the series. Taking gunfire with a smile, being brained by a Klingon headbutt and several others. Then there is Data's speed. He can move too fast for a human to follow as previously stated. No agility feats that I can remember though. I also am not sure how much of the books and comic books can be used as evidence here but if they can, Data has even more feats that are much more impressive. "
Edit: For a durability feat, I do have this in my gallery, but there are other showings Grievous has that I do not have readily available.
Thanks. I was wondering what is canon to what in the Star Wars universe.
I know for a fact that Star Trek books and comics all have soft canon attachments to the television series but I did not know how Star Wars fit in with those mediums.
Soft canon means canon unless contradicted by television for those who do not know.
General Grievous, is more agile and not limited to just the ground, the man walks around like a spider and could definitley catch data by surprise...
" General Grievous, is more agile and not limited to just the ground, the man walks around like a spider and could definitley catch data by surprise... "The only reason Grievous can walk around 'like a spider' is because his fingers and toes bite into the surface he wants to scale. There is nothing preventing Data from doing the exact same thing. Also, it is unlikely that Data will be taken by surprise when he considers .68 seconds to be nearly an eternity.
Aside from what I already mentioned, I think I may agree that Data wins purely because Grievous can be an inconsistent character. He has some very good showings and also some very poor showings.
"Grevious while a battle droid is specificly used to using energy based weapons to do his damage i cant remember him doing any real damage with just his body. Date has raw pyshcila power and could easily tear through the generals armour with his bare hands. However he would have to get past the arms first. "
He's actually not a battle Droid, he's a cyborg. I'd give a majority to Grievious. I could see Data doing what Obi Won did, opening his chest plates to reveal his organs, and then get a win that way. If this was Grievious from his orginal apearance, the first animated clone wars Grievious, lightsabers or not, Data wouldn't last long at all.
Is this movie/clone wars or comic/older clone wars series version? Because if movie version I say data open his chest right on the spot and rips his heart out easily. Otherwise it would be a VERY close fight but I see the General winning there .
"@erik said:The TV show is T-Canon (Television canon), and no comic is in that canon class. The comic I posted scans from is Clone Wars Adventures, which is C-Canon (as are most comics). But actually, T-Canon is a higher canon class than C-Canon is. So, actually, the TV show is more canon than comics are. This will give you a decent idea of the canon classes." @Silver2467: Lol I was pulling knowledge from the movies. Are those comics even Star Wars canon? They seem Clone Wars cartoon canon. As far as I knew, those are not hard canon to the mainstream universe.
http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/silver2467/star-wars-canon-classes/87-64300/
Alright. I may agree he wins then. I know of some impressive speed, strength, durability, and agility feats for Grievous, but I have none on hand. And based on what you told me, Data may be stronger than him and possibly more durable.As far as Data's strength, he has a few notable feats such as lifting several tons over his head. Most of the time, they are during instances where a Starfleet officer is trapped and is unable to move an object. Even when things were too heavy for Worf (who is a great deal stronger than a human) to budge, Data picks them up like nothing. Then his durability feats are extremely impressive for an android. He has never been physically damaged (beyond superficial damage) throughout the series. Taking gunfire with a smile, being brained by a Klingon headbutt and several others. Then there is Data's speed. He can move too fast for a human to follow as previously stated. No agility feats that I can remember though. I also am not sure how much of the books and comic books can be used as evidence here but if they can, Data has even more feats that are much more impressive. "
Edit: For a durability feat, I do have this in my gallery, but there are other showings Grievous has that I do not have readily available.
"
What was that from? Why is he fighting Ventress and Durge?? Who'm I thought were also working for Tyranus?
judging from previous remarks i deem data the winner on 2/3 instances against movie gri comic grive but may loose to the animated grevious who killed a squad of jedi knights
" @Larkin1388 said:.68 seconds of thinking time doesn't translate into reaction time though. Data doesn't have pure speed feats. Grievous sometimes makes Jedi look like slow." General Grievous, is more agile and not limited to just the ground, the man walks around like a spider and could definitley catch data by surprise... "The only reason Grievous can walk around 'like a spider' is because his fingers and toes bite into the surface he wants to scale. There is nothing preventing Data from doing the exact same thing. Also, it is unlikely that Data will be taken by surprise when he considers .68 seconds to be nearly an eternity. "
" @erik said:It is information processing time. How about memorizing information faster than the ship computer was able to crank it out? And yes Data does have operating speed feats. They were already mentioned in this thread." @Larkin1388 said:.68 seconds of thinking time doesn't translate into reaction time though. Data doesn't have pure speed feats. Grievous sometimes makes Jedi look like slow. "" General Grievous, is more agile and not limited to just the ground, the man walks around like a spider and could definitley catch data by surprise... "The only reason Grievous can walk around 'like a spider' is because his fingers and toes bite into the surface he wants to scale. There is nothing preventing Data from doing the exact same thing. Also, it is unlikely that Data will be taken by surprise when he considers .68 seconds to be nearly an eternity. "
"It is information processing time. How about memorizing information faster than the ship computer was able to crank it out? And yes Data does have operating speed feats. They were already mentioned in this thread. "What I meant was that thinking time of .68 seconds doesn't mean he can actually move that fast. No, I don't consider moving your finger in a blur while typing on a keyboard impressive enough. Jedi can appear to be a blur as well, and Grievous is at least on par with them.
" @erik said:Grievous is on par with them with lightsabers. I would also assume those jedi were not very skilled considering his fight with Obi."It is information processing time. How about memorizing information faster than the ship computer was able to crank it out? And yes Data does have operating speed feats. They were already mentioned in this thread. "What I meant was that thinking time of .68 seconds doesn't mean he can actually move that fast. No, I don't consider moving your finger in a blur while typing on a keyboard impressive enough. Jedi can appear to be a blur as well, and Grievous is at least on par with them. "
Lol I have no idea why you would assume that only Data's fingers can move fast. That is kind of silly to me.
"Grievous is on par with them with lightsabers. I would also assume those jedi were not very skilled considering his fight with Obi. Lol I have no idea why you would assume that only Data's fingers can move fast. That is kind of silly to me. "He's humiliated at least two Jedi masters before. Obi-Wan was perfect for taking on Grievous because of his unique defensive fighting style (at least that's the rationalization). Not to mention beating Durge, who himself is known to have enhanced reflexes, as seen above.
Well for one, typing requires far less movement than actual combat IMO. But I can't argue on that. My point was that the blur itself is not impressive.
Well again, that was with what i am sure was several lightsabers. He does not get those advantages here.
If the typing speed is unsatisfactory, then take your pick of any comic and novel featuring him. They are soft canon so as long as they do not conflict with any television episode, they can be used. He has actual speed feats in those that you cannot dismiss such as crossing a room filled with hostile opponents and dispatching them before they could mount an effective counter attack (trying to remember where I got that).
I am not a huge book expert so I will have to leave that to someone else to pull that reference for me.
" @AtPhantom said:I tried to say this when I was debating about a T-800 vs Sonny from I-Robot. Sonny was capable fo drawing his dream with super fast hand movement and someone tried to tell me his combat speed wouldn't be the same." @erik said:Grievous is on par with them with lightsabers. I would also assume those jedi were not very skilled considering his fight with Obi. Lol I have no idea why you would assume that only Data's fingers can move fast. That is kind of silly to me. ""It is information processing time. How about memorizing information faster than the ship computer was able to crank it out? And yes Data does have operating speed feats. They were already mentioned in this thread. "What I meant was that thinking time of .68 seconds doesn't mean he can actually move that fast. No, I don't consider moving your finger in a blur while typing on a keyboard impressive enough. Jedi can appear to be a blur as well, and Grievous is at least on par with them. "
I agree. It's silly.
This was the only clear example I could think of of his arms clearly moving at superhuman speed. It's true that most other cases just seem to be his hands. That said, I'm pretty sure some of those instances with his hands show them moving much faster than we see here. I also believe in an early episode of TNG he dodges lasers from some sort of laser drill. Of course, it is pretty rare for him to get in a fight with anything that can actually threaten him, so we don't ever really see his full combat abilities. Plus, TNG didn't really have the budget for superspeed fights (it could barely even choreograph normal speed fights properly).
While Jedi are supposed to have enhanced reflexes, I don't recall ever actually seeing them blur. Of course, part of that depends on exactly how the special effects guys feel like making superspeed look that issue/episode.
The cartoon Grievous is obviously tougher than the movie one, but that's true of a lot of cartoon characters (Mace would be another obvious one). Heck, cartoon Grievous isn't even built the same from what I remember; in the cartoon he just has 2 arms and 2 legs, and fights interchangeably (in a rather silly way, IMO), whereas movie Grievous has 4 arms but does not use his feet to wield lightsabers.
One thing in regards to sneaking up on Data; in a fairly early episode when some guy downloads his mind into Data's body, he says that his hearing is at least as good as a dog's. I can't remember it ever coming up again, so I don't know if it was retconned or just not important, but it could make sneaking up on him a lot tougher than you might think.
Edit: Found this. Mostly just for fun, though it does have a few feats.
Edit again: should have just gotten a bunch of them ready at once. Anyway, this one lists his computational speed and demonstrates his strength, although I can't say I know what "40 kilobars" is
And here's one more. None of these actually show him straining though.
Grevious' body is made of metal presumably titanium Data is made using synthetics synthetics are just as easy to rip through as human flesh. Grevious could easily crush Data's head and CPU or rip into his torso and remove his power core. also Grevious has incredible speed and tactical skills I have yet to see Data use any fighting skills but I hate Next generation series except the films so my knowledgeon that point is foggy also was there ever any instance of him outsmarting a single enemy General it's alot more difficult t take down an officer than a standard trooper or shock trooper.
"Grevious' body is made of metal presumably titanium Data is made using synthetics synthetics are just as easy to rip through as human flesh. Grevious could easily crush Data's head and CPU or rip into his torso and remove his power core. also Grevious has incredible speed and tactical skills I have yet to see Data use any fighting skills but I hate Next generation series except the films so my knowledgeon that point is foggy also was there ever any instance of him outsmarting a single enemy General it's alot more difficult t take down an officer than a standard trooper or shock trooper. "
Yeah Data's head and spine are the most durable parts of his body, Grievous won't be crushing them as if they where made of flesh and bone. If Data was as durable as me and you, he wouldn't be able to pull off most of his lifting feats.
Data's also survived as a head, just head for reference.
Data was so vastly superior in strength, durability and speed to just about anything they ran into in Next Gen.
So I'd have any doubts of him actually displaying hand to hand ability despite likely having Starfleet training and likely most forms of martial arts already stored in head somewhere with the rest of the stuff he randomly knows from human history.
Thats the thing about next gen, he doesn't need to use anything outside physical strength where he will likely outmatch anyone he runs into, Borg, Klingon, Human, Vulcan by as displayed in videos above, leaps and bounds.
I'm not sure if they have the showing were he easily lifts a support beam for example to boot to save that child in the video above that looks to him as a role model.
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