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#101 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackpantherisb: I've already done an extensive analysis on why Voldemort isn't comprable to Dumbledore.

I'll just copy paste my arguments from another thread.

First off the passage in full:

"(Harry had not even opened his mouth to resist; his mind was blank, his wand pointed uselessly at the floor. But the headless golden statue of the wizard in the fountain had sprung alive, leaping from its plinth to land with a crash on the floor between Harry and Voldemort. The spell merely glanced off its chest as the statue flung out its arms to protect Harry. "What -?" cried Voldemort, staring around. And then he breathed, "Dumbledore!" Harry looked behind him, his heart pounding. Dumbledore was standing in front of the golden gates. Voldemort raised his wand and another jet of green light streaked at Dumbledore, who turned and was gone in a whirling of his cloak. Next second, he reappeared behind Voldemort and waved his wand towards the remnants of the fountain. The other statues spraang to life. The statue of the witch ran at Bellatrix, who screamed and sent spells streaming uselessly off its chest, before it dived at her, pinning her to the floor. Meanwhile, the goblin and the house-elf scuttled towards the fireplaces set along the wall and the one-armed cetaur galloped at Voldemort, who vanished and reappeared beside the pool. The headless statue thrust Harry backwards, away from the fight, as Dumbledore advanced on Voldemort and the golden cantered around them both. "It was foolish to come here tonight, Tom," said Dumbledore camly. "The Aurors are on their way -" "By which time I shall be gone, and you will be dead!" spat Voldemort. He sent another killing curse at Dumbledore but missed, instead hitting the security guards desk, which burst into flame. Dumbledore flicked his own wand: the force of the spell that emanated from it was such that Harry, though shielded by his golden guard, felt his hair stand on end as it passed and this time Voldemort was forced to conjure a shining silver shield out of thin air to deflect it. The spell, whatever it was, caused no visible damage to the shield, though a deep, gong like note reverberated from it - an oddly chilling sound.

---

Another jet of light flew from behind the silver shield. This time it was the one armed centaur, galloping in front of Dumbledore, that took the blast and shatterred into a hundred pieces, but before the fragments had even hit the floor, Dumbledore had drawn back his wand and waved it as though brandishing a whip. A long thin flame flew from the tip; it wrapped itself around Voldemort, shield and all. For a moment, it seemed Dumbledore had won, but then the fiery rope became a serpent, which relinquished its hold on Voldemort at once hissing furiously, to face Dumbledore. Voldemort vanished; the snake reared from the floor, ready to strike - There was a burst of flame midair above Dumbledore just as Voldemort reappeared, standing on the plinth in the middle of the pool where so recently five statues had stood. "Look out!" Harry yelled. But even as he shouted, another jet of green light flew at Dumbledore from Voldemort's wand and the snake struck - Fawkes swooped down in front of Dumbledore, opened his beak wide and swallowed the jet of green light whole: he burst into flame and fell to the floor, small, wrinkled and flightless. At the same moment Dumbledore brnadished his wand in one long, fluid movement - the snake, which had been an instant from sinking its fangs into him, flew high into the air and vanished in a wisp of dark smoke; and the water in the pool rose up and covered Voldemort like a cocoon of molten glass. For a few seconds Voldemort was visible only as a dark, rippling, faceless figure shimmering and indistinct upon the plinth, clearly struggling to throw off the suffocating mass - Then he was gone and the water fell with a crash back into its pool, slopping wildly over the sides, drenching the polished floor.)"

- Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 36 "The Only One He Ever Feared"

Now lets break this fight down and see what it entails.

The fight starts like this:

"(Harry had not even opened his mouth to resist; his mind was blank, his wand pointed uselessly at the floor. But, the headless golden statue of the wizard in the fountain had sprung alive, leaping from its plinth to land with a crash on the floor between Harry and Voldemort. The spell merely glanced off its chest as the statue flung out its arms to protect Harry. "What -?" cried Voldemort, staring around. And then he breathed, "Dumbledore!" Harry looked behind him, his heart pounding. Dumbledore was standing in front of the golden gates. Voldemort raised his wand and another jet of green light streaked at Dumbledore, who turned and was gone in a whirling of his cloak. Next second, he reappeared behind Voldemort and waved his wand towards the remnants of the fountain. The other statues sprang to life. The statue of the witch ran at Bellatrix, who screamed and sent spells streaming uselessly off its chest, before it dived at her, pinning her to the floor. Meanwhile, the goblin and the house-elf scuttled towards the fireplaces set along the wall and the one-armed centaur galloped at Voldemort, who vanished and reappeared beside the pool. The headless statue thrust Harry backwards, away from the fight, as Dumbledore advanced on Voldemort and the golden cantered around them both.)”

Now let’s look at this for a moment. Dumbledore in the time it takes Voldemort to apparate manages to defeat Bellatrix, protect Harry, animate statues and attack Voldemort. If this isn’t indicative of superiority, I don’t know what is. However, we need to look deeper than this to determine Dumbledore’s vast superiority so let’s look further.

"(The Aurors are on their way -" "By which time I shall be gone, and you will be dead!" spat Voldemort. He sent another killing curse at Dumbledore but missed, instead hitting the security guard’s desk, which burst into flame. Dumbledore flicked his own wand: the force of the spell that emanated from it was such that Harry, though shielded by his golden guard, felt his hair stand on end as it passed, and this time Voldemort was forced to conjure a shining silver shield out of thin air to deflect it. The spell, whatever it was, caused no visible damage to the shield, though a deep, gong like note reverberated from it - an oddly chilling sound.)”

This is a firm showing of vast superiority. Voldemort is incapable of blocking Dumbledore’s spell head on and is therefore forced to create a silver shield instead. This shows Dumbledore’s power utterly obliterates Voldemort’s and that Voldemort isn’t remotely comparable to Dumbledore despite your claims. Moreover, Voldemort notes that Dumbledore’s spell was non-lethal “(“You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore? called Voldemort, his scarlet eyes narrowed over the top of the shield.”)” and this is basically confirmed by the fact that Dumbledore’s spell bounces harmlessly off the shield with far more lethal spells having destroyed such defences.

It’s also worth noting Dumbledore’s spell causes Harry’s hair to stand on end whereas Voldemort’s does no such thing further elevating my point that Dumbledore is vastly more powerful than Voldemort.

So, to summarise if Dumbledore had lethal intentions, he would have effortlessly one shotted Voldemort. Now I can already here the screams of “he had the Elder Wand” but the Elder Wand does not make miracles and has been beaten in the past. I don’t see anyway Dumbledore could have gone from being equal to Voldemort to one shotting him, so this is a pretty firm indication of superiority. Now of course Dumbledore was holding back (he is still infinitely more powerful anyway considering being lethal in a duel isn’t some ground-breaking amp but it’s still a factor) and could have quite possibly been doing so against Grindelwald so let’s look at the rest of the fight to see his vast superiority to Voldemort even while holding back.

The next part is just dialogue (which is why I missed it in the passage I cited) but there are a few points I feel I should bring up here.

1. Voldemort is terrified of Dumbledore though he does try to put on a facade that he is not. Despite what his dialogue may suggest about him not being terrified he is. He hides behind his shield and waits before attacking Dumbledore again. After realising his magic does not compare to Dumbledore’s (he creates a shield to block Dumbledore’s attack rather than using magic) he waits ages before attacking again.

2. Dumbledore is not afraid of Voldemort. He walks calmly and is described as speaking “(as lightly as though they were discussing the matter over drinks)”and walks along “(undefended, shield less)” which is quite a contrast to Voldemort cowering behind his shield.

Once again, the above is an indication of vast superiority.

More of the fight:

“(Another jet of light flew from behind the silver shield. This time it was the one-armed centaur, galloping in front of Dumbledore, that took the blast and shattered into a hundred pieces, but before the fragments had even hit the floor, Dumbledore had drawn back his wand and waved it as though brandishing a whip. A long thin flame flew from the tip; it wrapped itself around Voldemort, shield and all. For a moment, it seemed Dumbledore had won, but then the fiery rope became a serpent, which relinquished its hold on Voldemort at once hissing furiously, to face Dumbledore.)”

Once again Dumbledore very nearly one shots Voldemort (I know Voldemort blocked his previous spell but the start of the duel and this part might as well be different fights as the part in between the start of the fight and this part is filled with dialogue). He destroys Voldemort in seconds here. He ties Voldemort up after the Centaur is shattered by Voldemort’s spell and seemed to have won. How on earth is Voldemort better than Dumbledore when he was destroyed in seconds twice with both being very close to a one shot?

Next portion of the fight:

“(Voldemort vanished; the snake reared from the floor, ready to strike - There was a burst of flame mid-air above Dumbledore just as Voldemort reappeared, standing on the plinth in the middle of the pool where so recently five statues had stood. "Look out!" Harry yelled. But even as he shouted, another jet of green light flew at Dumbledore from Voldemort's wand and the snake struck - Fawkes swooped down in front of Dumbledore, opened his beak wide and swallowed the jet of green light whole: he burst into flame and fell to the floor, small, wrinkled and flightless.)”

All right quite possibly Voldemort’s only impressive display in the entire fight. However, it is severely overrated, and the context is quite often ignored. The most Voldemort did here was last a few seconds without being one shotted now let’s look at why that was shall we.

A brief summary: Voldemort apparates after turning Dumbledore’s previous attack into a snake and casts a Killing Curse at Dumbledore.

1. The only reason Voldemort wasn’t one shotted here was because he used a distraction to allow himself to escape. This further proves that Voldemort cannot directly duel Dumbledore and is forced to use distractions and shields to even last for about 30 seconds.

2. I’ve often seen people claim that Voldemort could have killed Dumbledore here and that Dumbledore used Fawkes to save himself but please observe the context provided below:

A) Dumbledore had numerous other statues animated he could have used to defend himself, but they were defending Harry and pinning Bellatrix. This is enough to suggest that had this been a 1v1 duel Dumbledore wouldn’t have been pressed to use Fawkes in the first place.

B) Voldemort needed a snake to pull off that two-way attack anyway, so I don’t see why Dumbledore can’t use Fawkes to defend himself.

C) Fawkes was a means at Dumbledore’s disposal unlike what some would claim. Dumbledore’s use of Fawkes was the same as Dumbledore’s use of the statues. Just because Dumbledore didn’t cast a spell to animate Fawkes does not mean he couldn’t use him in fact quite the opposite. Dumbledore was fully aware of Fawkes’s existence and the defence he could offer him, so Dumbledore would have been less likely to leave himself in such a position should Fawkes have not been there. There is also the fact that had Fawkes not been there Dumbledore would have been more than likely to set up another defence, so this entire argument is useless and basically a fallacy.

D) I see no reason why Dumbledore couldn’t have apparated away from both the snake and curse had he needed to if Fawkes hadn’t been there.

To summarise Voldemort survives through a distraction and his supposed moment where he could have killed Dumbledore is nothing more than a fallacy.

Final portion of the fight:

“(At the same moment Dumbledore brandished his wand in one long, fluid movement - the snake, which had been an instant from sinking its fangs into him, flew high into the air and vanished in a wisp of dark smoke; and the water in the pool rose up and covered Voldemort like a cocoon of molten glass. For a few seconds Voldemort was visible only as a dark, rippling, faceless figure shimmering and indistinct upon the plinth, clearly struggling to throw off the suffocating mass - Then he was gone, and the water fell with a crash back into its pool, slopping wildly over the sides, drenching the polished floor.)"

This is where any levels of parity become non-existent. Dumbledore swiftly disposes of Voldemort’s snake and then proceeds to finish him. Now many may claim Dumbledore did not win but this goes against what the text establishes. Voldemort lost deal with it. He was pushed to his breaking point by the cocoon of water and if he wanted to, I have no doubt Dumbledore could have killed Voldemort. Voldemort was very clearly struggling to throw off the cocoon and needed to posses Harry to escape it. This brings me to my next point. The only reason Voldemort escaped that cocoon was Harry. If you have claimed he escaped it on his own but please stop lying to yourself. He completely vanishes and posses Harry as the cocoon collapses which confirms that he did indeed posses Harry to escape the cocoon. Furthermore, if he did escape on his own, I don’t really understand how he can go from struggling to push off the cocoon and failing to, to managing to push it off him within a second. There isn’t a logical explanation to support the idea that Voldemort escaped on his own. Voldemort lost this fight.

To summarise:

1. Dumbledore only casts 3 spells of the fight 2 of which very nearly subdue Voldemort with the third putting him out of action.

2. Dumbledore has Voldemort cowering in seconds meanwhile Dumbledore strolls along calmly.

3. Dumbledore proved vast superiority to Voldemort and if he were fighting with lethal intent could have one shotted Voldemort.

4. Dumbledore essentially 3 shots Voldemort.

5. Voldemort cannot engage with Dumbledore head on.

6. Voldemort’s one portion of the fight which places him in a favourable light has been thoroughly debunked.

7. The Elder Wand did not play a factor in this duel besides the start.

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#102 Posted by blackpantherisb (6996 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: Most of that was silly head canon or just straight up nonsensical. I’ll address that in full soon.

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#103 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: Most of that was silly head canon or just straight up nonsensical. I’ll address that in full soon.

Ok. Some of it I admit is exaggerated and not quite in line what I believe but the base point stands that Voldemort is nowhere near Dumbledore. I'll discard what I disagree with and keep what I agree with so if I respond and miss one of your points it'll most likely be because I don't fully agree with my orignal analysis of the fight.

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#104 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: And how is it even slightly refutable? The Dumbledore Voldemort matched should be even more powerful an experienced than the Dumbledore than beat Grindelwald. And the Elder wand is a massive amp for anyone who has it. So the Dumbledore that beat Grindelwald << the Dumbledore that Voldemort matched.

It's been solidified over and over again how wrong it is, not only did Voldemort get stomped in the duel [All of his attacks were negated easily and Dumbledore traps him in a cocoon which he failed to break free from without outside assistance [Possessing Harry which isn't available on neutral ground] not to mention nearly every hit fired put him out of commission] but Dumbledore has a multitude of quotes saying he's past his prime so that argument isn't relevant [1945 Dumbledore is better] and Grindelwald fought a more powerful version of Dumbledore and performed far better [The duel was described as legendary] but also multiple statements list Gellert as an equal to peak Dumbledore even without the wand meaning that at least there is more parity between Grinddelwald and peak Dumbledore than there is between Voldemort and post prime Dumbledore. Just to wrap things up nicely Vopldemort was stalemated by a trio of three Auror tier duellists, Grindelewald held off 20 Aurors simultaneously [I'm well aware of the context to the Voldemort duel but the gap between the opponents being faced is so wide that the context becomes null]. Accolades say Voldemort, logic and scaling not to mention feats say Grindelwald.

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#105 Posted by Kilius (1573 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackpantherisb:

The counterarguments as usually follows, goes that Dumbledore was post-prime based on a few out of context statements, where he said he has gotten slower(the kindle search function sited three instances of this), two of which were cover stories for his injury, when we know slower reactions weren't the cause, but poor judgement and a moment of personal weakness, as we learn in Deathly Hallows. The other a lie to the death eaters on his current condition as a result from drinking the emerald potion. That and there is the general assumption old age hindered him, but honestly Dumbledore is kind of one of those old guys that never really act old in fiction. In HBP at the Dursleys, he was described as whipping out his wand so rapidly Harry barely saw it, and when they swam to the Horcrux cave, he was described as having "the sudden agility of a much younger man." I mean aside from phony cover stories, everything else points to him having a young man's physical condition, unrealistic though it might be, though anything's fair game in fiction.

People also underplay the Elder Wand, saying skill is most important. Never mind that shield charms would be boosted by the Elder Wand, as would powerful offensive spells such charms would need to withstand.

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#106 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: There are more than those three if I can be bothered to look I'll find them. And Dumbledore isn't slow, that proves nothing and does not mean he isn't slower than he once was.

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#107 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: Except the Elder Wand wasn't a factor in the Dumbledore vs Voldemort duel considering most of it was transfiguration and Charms. The only time it was relevant was when Dumbledore fired a curse at Voldemort which Voldemort used a shield to block ayway so I don't see why it matters.

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#108 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: BTW your argument that the elder wand has never been beaten outside of the 1945 duel is false, as established in the books.

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#109 Edited by Kilius (1573 posts) - - Show Bio

@riddlerfan77:

I since you started to respond I'll address a few of those points. No need to rush for your counter response, if you have things to do, take your time set your priorities.

Just to wrap things up nicely Voldemort was stalemated by a trio of three Auror tier duelists, Grindelewald held off 20 Aurors simultaneously [I'm well aware of the context to the Voldemort duel but the gap between the opponents being faced is so wide that the context becomes null]. Accolades say Voldemort, logic and scaling not to mention feats say Grindelwald.

That's ABC logic. We need to look at the context of those fights. For Grindelwald's feat.

Grindelwald is facing 20 Aurors in one direction, no flanks he needs to worry about. Every spell they send at him can be deflected with the shield charm. He's not reacting to every spell at once, the shield can deflect multiple spells. And going by book logic, as JK wrote the screenplay, the stunning spells that hit the aurors could easily be ricochets from the aurors own spells bouncing off the shield. Now it's a great feat of power as multiple spells have a cumulative effect, but if Voldemort is canonically more powerful via statements, it stands to logic that he should also be able to create a shield that powerful. Only an anti-feat from Voldy can dismiss his statements and we don't have any in this instance.

"Voldemort was now dueling McGonagall, Slughorn and Kingsley at once and there was cold hatred in his face as they wove and ducked around him, unable to finish him."

That's all we really get in terms of description - aside from the part where he blows them all way with one spell. I know 'rage amp' as if this is Star Wars. Not like Voldy's magic wasn't hindered in the first place anyways. But later.

Voldemort is being harried at all flanks, whereas Grindelwald faced them all in one direction. More over Voldy is taking the offensive to them, Grindelwald just spammed the shield charm, Voldy doesn't have that luxury. McGonagall is a transfiguration expert and isn't just going to be launching standard stunning spells the shield charm can tank, so Voldy can't rely on that. And Kingsley and McGonagall are much more dangerous than standard aurors, and Slughorn was described as an incredibly capable wizard by Dumbledore. Give me them over 20 Dawlish's.

And yes Harry's sacrificial protection is a big deal. And no Voldy doesn't just spam the Killing Curse, he used transfiguration, the full body binding spell, set Neville on fire(which didn't burn him on account of the sacrificial protection, more proof he was significantly hindered), and defeated the trio with a blasting curse, the 'rage amp' (which by the way is never described as a factor, it's just speculation) would only off set the hindrance he already was under, from the sacrificial protection.

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#110 Posted by deactivated-5bf470b432518 (5801 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: It's all good, once I finish up a CAV post I should be good to go for this debate [Repping Caedus against Valk].

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#111 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius:

Give me them over 20 Dawlish's.

Dawlish by accolades is Kingsley tier though...

He's not some random Auror and is most definitely above anyone of those Aurors.

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#112 Posted by Daisy_Johnson (1065 posts) - - Show Bio

@daisy_johnson: Really?

Are you seriously trying to argue that Dumbledore can't beat Grindelwald? Canon disagrees with you. Every source that compares the two has Dumbledore as the superior.

"(And at the height of his power, when Dumbledore knew he was the only one who could stop him, he duelled Grindelwald, and beat him, and he took the Elder Wand.)"

Credit: Winning the wand - Pottermore

Dumbledore in the above quote is outright stated to be able to stop Grindelwald.

"("I knew that we were evenly matched, perhaps that I was a shade more skilful.")"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 575

And is also stated to be more skilful.

"(They say, still, that no wizarding duel ever matched that between Dumbledore and Grindelwald in 1945. Those who witnessed it have written of the terror and the awe as they watched these two extra-ordinary wizards do battle.)"

Credit: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows page 24

Plus there are eye witness accounts of the duel (see above quote). Don't you'd think they'd mention Dumbledore had help if he did?

Beating Grindelwald was mentioned as Dumbledore's crowning achievement and multiple statements back up the fact that Dumbledore is better than Grindelwald including official out of universe non biased sources. Unless you're going to argue against them of course.

Plus I'd hazard a guess that JK Rowling believes Dumbledore is better than Grindelwald and Authorial intent matters. I'm a huge Grindelwald fan but not a shred of proof backs up the fact that Dumbledore did not defeat Grindelwald fair and square.

I mean your talking to the person who made his respect thread.

All those quotes are 100%, what I'm trying to say is he currently can't beat him based on information in the new film. Have you've seen the movie? There's so much new information that isn't acknowledged in the older canon (which is still the same canon). We really don't know for sure how the battle will play out or if Grindelwald is even weakened and injured or has some other handicap in the final battle despite having the elder wand. We also don't know about the other 2 major factors will conclude and factor into Grindelwald's downfall. Hell, we could even see an enraged bloodlusted Albus Dumbeldore in battle against Grindelwald "The awe and terror".


@kilius said:

@daisy_johnson:

Fair enough. I'll confess I haven't really watched any of the FB movies save for clips.

Lesson for me I guess; make sure you are up to date with your facts before you accuse others of the same lol.

That said I'm sure unless JK plans on retconning what she already established(which tbf has happened in the past) I don't see Dumby beating Grindel changing.

Definitely go see it :) If you don't care about spoilers I could tell you what that big twist and spoiler that changes the context of things in regards of Dumbledore not telling Harry everything.

Speaking of which. What are the rules for major spoilers like that with characters on CV? I'm surprised someone hasn't been a dick yet and created a thread of xxxxxx vs whoever or spoiled it yet. How much time passing is reasonable before people can talk about new characters and feats that are considered spoilers?

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#113 Edited by Kilius (1573 posts) - - Show Bio

@daisy_johnson:

Nobody really adheres to spoiler policy.

There are guidelines, but honestly people shouldn't be trolling the internet about a character who's movie you haven't seen if they are worried about spoilers. It's a battle forum, spoilers are inevitable.

The long and short I wouldn't worry about spoiling it for other's who shouldn't be here to begin with.

You can tell me if you want, though I don't really have much interest in seeing FB for now and if I do it will probably be via screenplay, as I'm not a fan of HP movie format.

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#114 Edited by lgh0stl (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackpantherisb: haven't seen the fantastic beast yet but when Voldemort and Albus fought in the Ministry of Magic . . Voldy was fresh and healthy while Albus though wielding the Elder Wand he was old and dying because of the hocrux gaunt's ring he wore. So basically Voldy was getting his ass kicked by a dying Albus with the Elder Wand

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#115 Edited by Daisy_Johnson (1065 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius said:

@daisy_johnson:

Nobody really adheres to spoiler policy.

There are guidelines, but honestly people shouldn't be trolling the internet about a character who's movie you haven't seen if they are worried about spoilers. It's a battle forum, spoilers are inevitable.

The long and short I wouldn't worry about spoiling it for other's who shouldn't be here to begin with.

You can tell me if you want, though I don't really have much interest in seeing FB for now and if I do it will probably be via screenplay, as I'm not a fan of HP movie format.

Fair enough. I'll give you the full run down on the context of a specific character. Though fair and obvious warning to everyone else, don't click the spoiler tag xD

The movie revolves around discovering the identity of Credence Barebones. One of the most powerful, if not by far the most powerful magic users to ever live in terms of raw power. Credence indeed did survive the Obcurus outburst at the end of the first film and seeks to find his real birth parents. The movie plays with the idea that he is none other than Corvus Lestrange but it is ultimately revealed by Leta Lestrange in the 3rd act that she left Corvus behind on a sinking ship and saved the other baby instead. This brings us back to square one to who the heck is Credence? In the movie we hear a well known legend spoken by Albus Dumbledore (For the record Jude Law plays a phenomenal young Dumbledore and owned up to the role) of how a Phoenix will appear before a Dumbledore in a time of need. In this instance he is referring to himself and his bloodline. Meanwhile Grindelwald is trying to start and uprising and recruit followers to his cause to have the world know the Wizards exist so they no longer need to live separately between Muggles (Known as No-Mags back then) and Magic wielders. He gives a very influential speech as expected from someone like Magneto bring people to his side. During this time Credence is also at the rally and is scared and unsure what to do as Grindelwald has been manipulating him over the course of both films; to ensure he walks a certain path as he believe he is the only magic user alive that has the power to absolutely destroy Albus Dumbledore like some kind of sick joke. Grindelwald would even ask his followers if they would sneak into Hogwarts and attempt to kill Dumbledore and the answer is no, why? Because Albus is too powerful. Credence ultimately decides to go with Grindelwald and his followers through the portal leaving Newts side because he doesn't see how evil Grindelwald is, and because Grindelwald said he would tell him birth name. The movie ends off with Grindelwald looking at Credence and tells him that his brother is hunting him down and will not stop until he is dead because he will not allow anyone in his bloodline to be more powerful than him and take the power and glory, in short Grindelwald taunts Credence about his "brother" as he did spoke of his "sister" earlier in the film. He says "Your brother seeks to destroy you" which really upsets Credence and a Phoenix appears behind him. Grindelwald then tells him that his true name is "Aurelius Dumbledore".

Shortly after he gives him a wand for the first time and he shouts as he casts his very first spell ever. Blasting a huge hole out of the building as it travels at high speeds toward a mountain, completely blowing the side out of it like a DBZ blast. I'm not even shitting you, wait till that feat gets uploaded.

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#116 Posted by Kilius (1573 posts) - - Show Bio

@lgh0stl:

Dumbledore didn't injure his hand until HBP. Harry and everyone else was in shock when they saw him for the first time in the book.

We don't know if being old really affected Dumbledore. Realistically it would obviously, but there are a lot of fictional old guys who can go on like age is just a look(remember King Bumi from Avatar Last Air Bender) and even 'dying Dumbledore' had was described as having the agility of a much younger man when he and Harry swam out to the horcrux cave. No objective source to the best of my knowledge confirms Dumbledore was post-prime physically. If you have Kindle Unlimited you can use the search function to search for quotes; I honestly found more quotes about Slughorn being 'too old' for anything than Dumbledore. And all the statements about Dumbledore having slow reflexes are cover stories for his injured hand or the emerald potion.

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#117 Posted by lgh0stl (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: what do you mean by HBP? I'm not familliar with the term.

Dumbledore was already dying pre-battle in the Ministry of Magic. Snape made a potion to stop it's spread and contain it in his right hand though he only got one year to live

Point is Voldy was fighting a dying Dumbledore

regardless of his movements Albus already got a handicapped with the curse in his right hand while Voldy is in full health

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#118 Edited by Kilius (1573 posts) - - Show Bio

@lgh0stl said:

@kilius: what do you mean by HBP? I'm not familliar with the term.

Dumbledore was already dying pre-battle in the Ministry of Magic. Snape made a potion to stop it's spread and contain it in his right hand though he only got one year to live

Point is Voldy was fighting a dying Dumbledore

regardless of his movements Albus already got a handicapped with the curse in his right hand while Voldy is in full health

HBP is an acronym for "The Half Blood Prince"

And no he didn't get the curse until the sixth book. This is what Harry notices when he meets Dumbledore for first time in the Half Blood Prince: "Harry saw that his hand was blackened and shriveled; it looked as though his flesh had been burned away."

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#119 Posted by lgh0stl (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

@kilius: thanks

Dumbledore finds and wore the ring even before Harry enters Hogwarts, in his manner of speaking with Harry in HBP. The reason he kept the ring that long is in hope that stone that is in the ring can be used to revive his sister.

But I don't really have the exact timeline when he really find it just an assumption that before Harry enters hogwarts

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#120 Posted by Bayman007 (1334 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Sidiuos should be below Harry Potter. Dumbledore didn't beat Voldermort.

OT: Stops at 7

Online
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#121 Posted by blackpantherisb (6996 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

Now let’s look at this for a moment. Dumbledore in the time it takes Voldemort to apparate manages to defeat Bellatrix, protect Harry, animate statues and attack Voldemort. If this isn’t indicative of superiority, I don’t know what is. However, we need to look deeper than this to determine Dumbledore’s vast superiority so let’s look further.

This is an incorrect and fallacious interpretation of the events, Dumbledore just dodges one of Voldemort's spells and enchants the statues, who then take out Bellatrix and save Harry. He cast exactly one spell at that time, and this certainly does not indicate superiority.

This is a firm showing of vast superiority. Voldemort is incapable of blocking Dumbledore’s spell head on and is therefore forced to create a silver shield instead. This shows Dumbledore’s power utterly obliterates Voldemort’s and that Voldemort isn’t remotely comparable to Dumbledore despite your claims. Moreover, Voldemort notes that Dumbledore’s spell was non-lethal “(“You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore? called Voldemort, his scarlet eyes narrowed over the top of the shield.”)” and this is basically confirmed by the fact that Dumbledore’s spell bounces harmlessly off the shield with far more lethal spells having destroyed such defences.

This is one of the most moronic arguments I have seen in my 3 years on comic vine, which is saying something. Essentially you're saying "Voldemort can't block Dumbledore's spell with magic, so instead he creates a shield OUT OF MAGIC that completely and utterly deflects Dumbledore's spell with no damage to the shield. I hope you see just how stupid that argument is, in no way, shape or form, does that indicate Dumbledore's superiority, if anything it shows that Voldemort is better, since his shield was totally unaffected by Dumbledore's blast. Also Dumbledore wasn't aiming to kill Grindelwald either, as evidenced by the fact that, ya' know, he didn't kill Grindelwald. But if anything Dumbledore would've been more morals off against Voldy, because he and Grindelwald were once best friends (Crimes of Grindelwald implies that they were potentially even lovers) whereas Albus always hated Tom.

It’s also worth noting Dumbledore’s spell causes Harry’s hair to stand on end whereas Voldemort’s does no such thing further elevating my point that Dumbledore is vastly more powerful than Voldemort.

Voldemort sent out a killing curse, which Rowling never portrays as emitting power, but rather being swift, silent and deadly, this doesn't convey a damn thing.

So, to summarise if Dumbledore had lethal intentions, he would have effortlessly one shotted Voldemort.

Frankly this is moronic head canon that you pulled out of the deepest depths of your bottom.

Now I can already here the screams of “he had the Elder Wand” but the Elder Wand does not make miracles and has been beaten in the past.

In open combat it was only beaten once IIRC, by Dumbledore, whilst Grindelwald was using it, this pretty clearly establishes that Dumbledore without the Elder Wand>>>Grindelwald without the Elder Wand, since the Elder Wand is a massive amp. I mean Harry and Hermione (who was meant to be exceptionally skilled) worked for weeks on fixing Harry's wand, undoubtedly using complex and impressive magic, and couldn't do anything. Then they take to Olivander, the leading wand expert in the world, who states that he can't do anything about it. Yet Harry with the Elder Wand uses a simple "reparo" to fix his wand. Keep in mind that reparo is one of the most basic spells ever, Hermione used it to fixed Harry's glasses before their first year. So it's one of, if not the most, basic spells in the HP verse. So with regular wands highly skilled wizards, and even top tier wand experts couldn't do anything about Harry's wand, yet with the wand one of the most basic spells ever instantly repairs. Magic completed with the Elder Wand>>>>>Magic completed without it.

I don’t see anyway Dumbledore could have gone from being equal to Voldemort to one shotting him, so this is a pretty firm indication of superiority.

At no point does Dumbledore show the power to oneshot Voldemort, you've constructed your entire argument around laughable head canon, please stop it, it's not even actual debating.

Now of course Dumbledore was holding back (he is still infinitely more powerful anyway considering being lethal in a duel isn’t some ground-breaking amp but it’s still a factor) and could have quite possibly been doing so against Grindelwald so let’s look at the rest of the fight to see his vast superiority to Voldemort even while holding back.

He's not holding back, he's just not morals off, Voldemort was remarking on the fact that he didn't use the killing curse, obviously Dumbledore wasn't holding back against the wizard who he has stated is the most dangerous wizard in the world. Also are you really implying that Dumbledore is infinitely more powerful that Voldemort? Really? Jesus you are ridiculous.

1. Voldemort is terrified of Dumbledore though he does try to put on a facade that he is not. Despite what his dialogue may suggest about him not being terrified he is. He hides behind his shield and waits before attacking Dumbledore again. After realising his magic does not compare to Dumbledore’s (he creates a shield to block Dumbledore’s attack rather than using magic) he waits ages before attacking again.

In Crimes of Grindelwald Grindelwald is so afraid of Dumbledore that he knows that he can't beat him in an open fight, and instead recruits Clarence to do it for him, how's that for afraid?

2. Dumbledore is not afraid of Voldemort. He walks calmly and is described as speaking “(as lightly as though they were discussing the matter over drinks)”and walks along “(undefended, shield less)” which is quite a contrast to Voldemort cowering behind his shield.

That's Dumbledore's demeanor, but Dumbledore has on many occasions recognized Voldemort as a serious threat, if you wanna use statements and implications then I can go to Pottermore where Rowling explicitly states that Voldemort is the most powerful Dark Wizard of all time, and she labels Grindelwald as a dangerous Dark Wizard.

Once again, the above is an indication of vast superiority.

Nope, it's more silly head canon, I'm impressed as to the extent you can delude yourself though.

Once again Dumbledore very nearly one shots Voldemort (I know Voldemort blocked his previous spell but the start of the duel and this part might as well be different fights as the part in between the start of the fight and this part is filled with dialogue). He destroys Voldemort in seconds here. He ties Voldemort up after the Centaur is shattered by Voldemort’s spell and seemed to have won. How on earth is Voldemort better than Dumbledore when he was destroyed in seconds twice with both being very close to a one shot?

He doesn't destroy Voldemort here, he needs his centaur to block Voldemort's spell (showing that Dumbledore actually can't block Tom's spell with his own magic, and needs a statue to do it for him), and since he can't breach Voldy's shield with his magic he creates a fire whip to try to contain him, however this doesn't work as Tom casually transfigures it. This is not destruction, if anything it shows that Dumbledore can't match Voldemort in pure magic and needs to use creative strategies to keep up with him.

All right quite possibly Voldemort’s only impressive display in the entire fight. However, it is severely overrated, and the context is quite often ignored. The most Voldemort did here was last a few seconds without being one shotted now let’s look at why that was shall we.

Let's see what more head canon you can create to justify your fallacious conclusion.

1. The only reason Voldemort wasn’t one shotted here was because he used a distraction to allow himself to escape. This further proves that Voldemort cannot directly duel Dumbledore and is forced to use distractions and shields to even last for about 30 seconds.

Not he wasn't one shotted because Dumbledore isn't skilled enough to oneshot him, and his fire whip was instantly transfigured by Voldemort. And Tom can easily create these same "distractions" in his fight with Grindelwald so I don't see your point here.

2. I’ve often seen people claim that Voldemort could have killed Dumbledore here and that Dumbledore used Fawkes to save himself but please observe the context provided below:

Yep, he could've, because Phoenixs come to Dumbledore's in times of dire need, so if Dumbledore had been able to casually dodge/block Voldemort's curse Fawkes wouldn't have come.

A) Dumbledore had numerous other statues animated he could have used to defend himself, but they were defending Harry and pinning Bellatrix. This is enough to suggest that had this been a 1v1 duel Dumbledore wouldn’t have been pressed to use Fawkes in the first place.

I already addressed this backward argument, also all of that takes place over a couple of seconds, so I don't even see your point in the slightest, 99% of the fight is 1v1, and Dumbledore didn't have to do anything besides animate the statues to beat Bellatrix and defend Harry, Voldemort easily could've done the same, hell even Mcgnagall animated hundreds of statues at the battle of Hogwarts. But based on what I've seen from you so far I wouldn't put it past you to argue that Minerva is above Voldemort.

B) Voldemort needed a snake to pull off that two-way attack anyway, so I don’t see why Dumbledore can’t use Fawkes to defend himself.

Voldemort made the snake out of magic, so he can access that snake at any time, and the snake doesn't count as outside help whereas Dumbledore's standard gear doesn't include Fawkes, so he needed outside help to survive his fight with Voldemort.

C) Fawkes was a means at Dumbledore’s disposal unlike what some would claim. Dumbledore’s use of Fawkes was the same as Dumbledore’s use of the statues. Just because Dumbledore didn’t cast a spell to animate Fawkes does not mean he couldn’t use him in fact quite the opposite. Dumbledore was fully aware of Fawkes’s existence and the defence he could offer him, so Dumbledore would have been less likely to leave himself in such a position should Fawkes have not been there. There is also the fact that had Fawkes not been there Dumbledore would have been more than likely to set up another defence, so this entire argument is useless and basically a fallacy.

Not really though, because Fawkes isn't part of Dumbledore's magical repertoire, so him needing Fawkes in a fight to survive indicates that he can't survive using his own magic, but rather needs outside help.

D) I see no reason why Dumbledore couldn’t have apparated away from both the snake and curse had he needed to if Fawkes hadn’t been there.

Clearly he didn't have time to react, because Fawkes had to swoop in to save him, and a Phoenix only appears for a Dumbledore in times of desperate need, so if Dumbledore could've just apparated away I don't think Fawkes would've showed up. Just like how if Dumbledore could've apparated away before the centaur statue wouldn't have needed to save him.

To summarise Voldemort survives through a distraction and his supposed moment where he could have killed Dumbledore is nothing more than a fallacy.

To summarize: all of that is bullsh*t and you know it. Voldemort used his own magic to create a distraction, and got the upper hand on Dumbledore, who was unable to defend himself with magic and instead need Fawkes to help him. This pretty clearly indicates that if anything Voldemort>Dumbledore with the Elder Wand.

This is where any levels of parity become non-existent. Dumbledore swiftly disposes of Voldemort’s snake and then proceeds to finish him. Now many may claim Dumbledore did not win but this goes against what the text establishes. Voldemort lost deal with it. He was pushed to his breaking point by the cocoon of water and if he wanted to, I have no doubt Dumbledore could have killed Voldemort.

Well here's the thing: if Dumbledore had been able to cast a spell on Voldemort while he was inside the water cocoon he would've, if he could've killed him in that time period as you're claiming, then he just as easily could've stunned him. Now obviously if Dumbledore could've stunned or KOed Voldemort in those seconds he would've, but he didn't, so obviously he couldn't have. Now to address the next part.

Voldemort was very clearly struggling to throw off the cocoon and needed to posses Harry to escape it. This brings me to my next point. The only reason Voldemort escaped that cocoon was Harry. If you have claimed he escaped it on his own but please stop lying to yourself. He completely vanishes and posses Harry as the cocoon collapses which confirms that he did indeed posses Harry to escape the cocoon. Furthermore, if he did escape on his own, I don’t really understand how he can go from struggling to push off the cocoon and failing to, to managing to push it off him within a second. There isn’t a logical explanation to support the idea that Voldemort escaped on his own. Voldemort lost this fight.

Voldemort doesn't transport himself inside of Harry when he possesses him though, he just take over his mind, that's not how Legilimency works. You just take over their mind, you don't teleport into their body. It's fairly obvious that Voldemort escaped the water cocoon and then took over Harry's mind because he wanted to end the fight. Him disappearing from the cocoon and then possessing Harry doesn't prove anything. If Voldemort could just use Harry's body to teleport where he is then the 7th book would be over in literally seconds. Voldemort escaped, and then possessed Harry. Your proposed version of events makes utterly no sense, just as everything else you've written thus far.

1. Dumbledore only casts 3 spells of the fight 2 of which very nearly subdue Voldemort with the third putting him out of action.

The first spell is casually blocked, the second is easily transfigured, and the third gives Tom a hard time, but he does manage to escape.

2. Dumbledore has Voldemort cowering in seconds meanwhile Dumbledore strolls along calmly.

Head canon.

3. Dumbledore proved vast superiority to Voldemort and if he were fighting with lethal intent could have one shotted Voldemort.

Head canon, and Dumbledore didn't have lethal intent against Grindelwald either.

4. Dumbledore essentially 3 shots Voldemort.

Not true: he casts one spell which is easily blocked, then a centaur he enchanted blocks Voldemort's curse, then he casts a spell which is transfigured, then Voldemort essentially wins, out maneuvering Dumbledore and firing off a killing curse that Dumbledore can't do anything about with his own magic and instead needs outside help to deal with. Then Dumbledore manages to give Voldemort a hard time with a spell (the first and only time that Dumbledore has an advantage in the fight) and then Tom escapes before Dumbledore can actually take him down.

5. Voldemort cannot engage with Dumbledore head on.

He did, and I would argue that he actually came off as being better than Dumbledore overall. Dumbledore couldn't do anything to Tom's shield with his magic, he couldn't block Voldy's spell with a spell of his own, and instead needed a centaur the he enchanted to protect him, then he tried to incapacitate Voldemort because he couldn't bypass his shield with direct magic. Tom easily dealt with this and essentially won the fight, Dumbledore needed outside help to stay alive. I would say Voldemort definitely comes off better in this exchange.

6. Voldemort’s one portion of the fight which places him in a favourable light has been thoroughly debunked.

Dumbledore only takes the advantage once, and Voldemort ends up getting back on even footing, and, if not for outside help, Dumbledore would've been dead by then. You debunked nothing, but you made up an impressive amount of head canon.

7. The Elder Wand did not play a factor in this duel besides the start.

WHAT? The Elder Wand played a part in every single spell Dumbledore cast, it massively amps all of his magic. If he hadn't had the wand, frankly, he would've been stomped by Voldemort, since even with the wand he was beaten by Voldemort in the magic department. So overall Voldermort>=Dumbledore with the Elder Wand>>>Dumbledore without the Elder Wand>Grindelwald with the Elder Wand.

Voldemort flattens Grindelwald, end of story.

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#122 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackpantherisb: I'll get back to this later. However as I said some of my argumentation here was really bad and I quite frankly do not agree with it.

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#123 Posted by blackpantherisb (6996 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: If you don’t agree with it then don’t post it mate.

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#124 Posted by Thatoneguy887 (1098 posts) - - Show Bio

Stops at dumbledore

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#125 Posted by MYGOD101 (318 posts) - - Show Bio

One thing is for sure Gellert Grindelwald isn't making it past 7 or 8.

Voldemort stomps him handily

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#126 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1281 posts) - - Show Bio
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#127 Posted by MYGOD101 (318 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackpantherisb: The Elder Wand was beaten hundreds of times in direct combat.

that is False. The only time it was beaten in direct combat was when Dumbledore challenged Grindelwald….unless you would like to post the other times in direct combat it lost.

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#128 Posted by blackpantherisb (6996 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: Okay...and? Also do you have a source for that?

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#129 Posted by Aka_aka_aka_ak (2921 posts) - - Show Bio

"the same place where Dumbledore fought Voldemort and won." uhh... what? Movies that was a clear upper hand for Voldy, books it's a stalemate. There is no version of that fight where Dumbledore won.

He loses to Voldemort in a close fight. Voldemort is the most powerful dark wizard of all time for a reason.

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#130 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1281 posts) - - Show Bio
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#131 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackpantherisb: @mygod101:

For starters we have a wizard called Egbert beating another Wizard call Emeric sometime during The Middle Ages and we have direct cinformation it was in a duel:

The first well-documented mention of a wand made of elder that had particularly strong and dan-gerous powers was owned by Emeric, commonly called “the Evil”, a short-lived but exceptionally aggressive wizard who terrorised the South of England in the early Middle Ages. He died as he had lived, in a ferocious duel with a wizard known as Egbert.

Credit: Albus Dumbledores Notes, The Tales of Beedle the Bard

And then Dumbledore later says it's been beaten hundreds of times:

What must strike any intelligent witch or wizard on studying the so-called history of the Elder Wand is that every man who claims to have owned it has insisted that it is “unbeatable”, when the known facts of its passage through many owners’ hands demonstrate that not only has it been beaten hundreds of times, but that it also attracts trouble as Grumble the Grubby Goat attracted flies. Ultimately, the quest for the Elder Wand merely supports an observation I have had occasion to make many times over the course of my long life: that humans have a knack of choosing precisely those things that are worst for them. But which of us would have shown the wisdom of the third brother, if offered the pick of Death’s gifts? Wizards and Muggles alike are imbued with a lust for power; how many would resist “the Wand of Destiny”? Which human being, having lost someone they loved, could withstand the tempta-tion of the Resurrection Stone? Even I, Albus Dumbledore, would find it easiest to refuse the Invisibility Cloak; which only goes to show that, clever as I am, I remain just as big a fool as anyone else.

Credit: Albus Dumbledore''s Notes, The Tales of Beedle the Bard

@jacensolo77 no need to provide the source.

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#132 Posted by blackpantherisb (6996 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: Okay. I don’t see how that was relevant to my posts though. The Elder wand was undeniably a massive amp.

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#133 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackpantherisb: Okay. I don’t see how that was relevant to my posts though.

Did I say it was? You asked JS77 for a source and I provided one because I happened to have it on hand.

The Elder wand was undeniably a massive amp.

Eh I disagree but whatever. Not in the mood to debate it right now.

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#134 Posted by blackpantherisb (6996 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3: The Elder Wand isn’t an amp?! Well what could I expect from you after the debating you displayed above. Just sheer head canon. I swear it’s like you read a different set of books.

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#135 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1281 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackpantherisb: Arkham is actually a good debater, just ask anyone lol. As for the EW there's an argument to be made it's not a huge amp, I don't buy into it personally but there is an argument that can be made for it.

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#136 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackpantherisb:

The Elder Wand isn’t an amp?!

Jesus Christ can you read? I said it's not a massive amp not that it's not an amp. I'm willing to make a case for it and most likely will do soon seeing as you seem to think I'm such a bad debater.

Well what could I expect from you after the debating you displayed above. Just sheer head canon.

I literally acknowledged the debating was terrible and afterwards said I disagreed with it.

I swear it’s like you read a different set of books.

I swear it's almost as if you can't read.

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#137 Posted by MYGOD101 (318 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackpantherisb: @mygod101:

For starters we have a wizard called Egbert beating another Wizard call Emeric sometime during The Middle Ages and we have direct cinformation it was in a duel:

The first well-documented mention of a wand made of elder that had particularly strong and dan-gerous powers was owned by Emeric, commonly called “the Evil”, a short-lived but exceptionally aggressive wizard who terrorised the South of England in the early Middle Ages. He died as he had lived, in a ferocious duel with a wizard known as Egbert.

Credit: Albus Dumbledores Notes, The Tales of Beedle the Bard

And then Dumbledore later says it's been beaten hundreds of times:

What must strike any intelligent witch or wizard on studying the so-called history of the Elder Wand is that every man who claims to have owned it has insisted that it is “unbeatable”, when the known facts of its passage through many owners’ hands demonstrate that not only has it been beaten hundreds of times, but that it also attracts trouble as Grumble the Grubby Goat attracted flies. Ultimately, the quest for the Elder Wand merely supports an observation I have had occasion to make many times over the course of my long life: that humans have a knack of choosing precisely those things that are worst for them. But which of us would have shown the wisdom of the third brother, if offered the pick of Death’s gifts? Wizards and Muggles alike are imbued with a lust for power; how many would resist “the Wand of Destiny”? Which human being, having lost someone they loved, could withstand the tempta-tion of the Resurrection Stone? Even I, Albus Dumbledore, would find it easiest to refuse the Invisibility Cloak; which only goes to show that, clever as I am, I remain just as big a fool as anyone else.

Credit: Albus Dumbledore''s Notes, The Tales of Beedle the Bard

@jacensolo77 no need to provide the source.

Okay...I don't see how that changes anything. the point is the Elder wand gives a massive power up; this is proven when Grindelwald went from barely being able to stop 20 wizards, To being able to nearly destroy an entire city. That seems like a pretty relevant boost to me.

even with the less impressive feat but still a feat made possible, When Harry potter Was able to repair his broken wand with just a basic spell from the Elder wand and fix it. It's been stated many times that when your wand is broken it is done you can't repair it at all. Not even wand makers can do it, it be established as well.

That lone should say the elder wand makes the impossible...possible. For you to say the elder wand doesn't amp magic or give a big boost is pretty absurd.

with the Elder wand Gellert Grindelwald makes it to Voldemort than he gets stomped badly.

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#138 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1281 posts) - - Show Bio
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#139 Posted by blackpantherisb (6996 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: The only time I’ve debated him is in this thread, and it was some of the worst debating I’ve seen. And he didn’t make the argument about the Elder Wand not being a massive amp, so obviously that doesn’t change my mind about him being a good debater.

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#140 Posted by blackpantherisb (6996 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: Also I only CaV debaters who I believe to have merit or skill since it’s only enjoyable in that case so I’d rather not CaV Arkham.

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#141 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101:

Okay...I don't see how that changes anything. the point is the Elder wand gives a massive power up; this is proven when Grindelwald went from barely being able to stop 20 wizards, To being able to nearly destroy an entire city. That seems like a pretty relevant boost to me.

You'd have to prove that the 20 Aurors Grindelwald fought weren't capable of destroying a city but the probelm is there is no feats to sugges their combined might couldn't. It's actually worth noting that they managed to repare city wide damage caused in FB1 in mere minutesshowing they are indeed pretty powerful.

even with the less impressive feat but still a feat made possible, When Harry potter Was able to repair his broken wand with just a basic spell from the Elder wand and fix it. It's been stated many times that when your wand is broken it is done you can't repair it at all. Not even wand makers can do it, it be established as well.

That lone should say the elder wand makes the impossible...possible. For you to say the elder wand doesn't amp magic or give a big boost is pretty absurd.

This is all very well and good but Grindelwald and Dumbledore could perform the impossible as of 16. Normally yes it's a significant boost but given how powerful the respective fighters are and the fact that The Elder Wand had been beaten hundreds of times I'd argue it's not that much of a relevant factor here.

with the Elder wand Gellert Grindelwald makes it to Voldemort than he gets stomped badly.

Even with The Elder Wand? I think Grindelwald might take with it though he definitely loses without.

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#142 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77: Also I only CaV debaters who I believe to have merit or skill since it’s only enjoyable in that case so I’d rather not CaV Arkham.

@jacensolo77: The only time I’ve debated him is in this thread, and it was some of the worst debating I’ve seen. And he didn’t make the argument about the Elder Wand not being a massive amp, so obviously that doesn’t change my mind about him being a good debater.

You need me to link you some of my better performances?

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#143 Posted by blackpantherisb (6996 posts) - - Show Bio
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#144 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio
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#145 Edited by JacenSolo77 (1281 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackpantherisb: Since you don't seem interested in debating him I'll PM you the argument in favour of it, not as somebody who believes it but just to see if it'll affect your opinion.

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#146 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackpantherisb: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/anakin-skywalker-vs-yoda-1694543/?page=8

My best debate in recent memory however unfortunately it's SW which isn't exactly your field of expertise. Oh well it's the best I can bring up on the fly.

Will take a more thorough look later.

@jacensolo77: If you're talking about what I think you're talking about then don't. It's a small piece of a much larger puzzle and doesn't definitively prove anything on its own.

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#147 Posted by JacenSolo77 (1281 posts) - - Show Bio
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#148 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacensolo77 said:

@arkhamasylum3: Bro that isn't even close to your best lol.

Hence why I said in recent memory. Remind me of my better performances lol cause I'm coming up empty.

All I've written recently are rebuttals that are only a few sentences long lol.

That's the only lengthy post I've written recently.

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#149 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3445 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackpantherisb:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/newt-scamander-vs-bellatrix-lestrange-1992165/?page=1

I suppose this debate was alright as well.

Read the discussion between me and foxerdes.

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#150 Posted by MYGOD101 (318 posts) - - Show Bio

@mygod101:

Okay...I don't see how that changes anything. the point is the Elder wand gives a massive power up; this is proven when Grindelwald went from barely being able to stop 20 wizards, To being able to nearly destroy an entire city. That seems like a pretty relevant boost to me.

You'd have to prove that the 20 Aurors Grindelwald fought weren't capable of destroying a city but the probelm is there is no feats to sugges their combined might couldn't. It's actually worth noting that they managed to repare city wide damage caused in FB1 in mere minutesshowing they are indeed pretty powerful.

even with the less impressive feat but still a feat made possible, When Harry potter Was able to repair his broken wand with just a basic spell from the Elder wand and fix it. It's been stated many times that when your wand is broken it is done you can't repair it at all. Not even wand makers can do it, it be established as well.

That lone should say the elder wand makes the impossible...possible. For you to say the elder wand doesn't amp magic or give a big boost is pretty absurd.

This is all very well and good but Grindelwald and Dumbledore could perform the impossible as of 16. Normally yes it's a significant boost but given how powerful the respective fighters are and the fact that The Elder Wand had been beaten hundreds of times I'd argue it's not that much of a relevant factor here.

with the Elder wand Gellert Grindelwald makes it to Voldemort than he gets stomped badly.

Even with The Elder Wand? I think Grindelwald might take with it though he definitely loses without.

Yet they couldn't wipe a city memory without help. So....that is moot since I don't have to prove they are city level when they said they couldn't conjure magic powerful enough to wipe a whole city.

No, the elder wand like I said boost his power greatly since none of those Wizards even together couldn't destroy a city. it wasn't the whole city that was fixed in FB1 but it was a good chunk but still not they whole City. you can't even show me the whole city being damaged and destroy in one scan.

no, with the Elder wand he still loses, Dumbledore words that Voldemort even before they fought at the department of ministries is the most powerful dark wizard ever.

He get stomped both times, with or without the elder wand Grindelwald can't beat Voldemort.