Gaslight Empire: Debate Thread (Zets v. Assassins OPEN FOR VOTING)

@heroup2112: I was just letting people know who were the ones deserving of credit. Some people see my name and immediately think, "Erik is the opponent?!?! Expletive him!!!"

I just want to avoid that because these guys worked hard on the debate. I wouldn't want my infamy dragging them down when my contribution levels were comparatively low.

Sure.

Bit of a family emergency today, going to do my damnedest to look this over tomorrow.

@wyldsong: hope everything works out for the best, mate

@sly_141@deronn_solo/@dadivineking@chiq@cruelestashley@queen_marceline

Man it's gonna take me some time to read all this shit.

@cruelestashley: @deronn_solo: lol sorry about that. xD

After their first post and my second post, a 1500 word limit got implemented.

Gonna have to vote for the Assassination team on this one. I went in relatively blind on most the characters, and was much more compelled by the Assassination team's overall argument and presentation. I also think Zets also severely underestimated the amount of bodies, skill, and abilities he was dealing with. His character is a monster, no doubt about that, but the argument swayed me enough to believe his character would eventually lose. The team also provided much more evidence to back up their claims, too. The biggest part of the team's argument that convinced me is that it did feel like Zets' character was a bit OOC when preparing, while the team had a day to prep.

But big kudos to Zets, he put up a much better argument than I thought he could, given the dire circumstances. It was pretty impressive.

@beaconofstrength: Thanks for the vote I know that was a long arse read. Any others should be much more short and tight as the new rule for amount of words.

@erik_soong: @zetsumoto: @lunacyde:

What's the vote count?

I think it's 2-2.

Crest and Beacon for us and Asguardbrony and Deathhero for Zets....

I mean I appreciate Silencedog's vote and I'm not a vine snob, but I don't like counting votes with low post counts TBH. Even though the votes for us and would give us a slight lead I don't know if that's fair IMO...

@lukehero: lol I got no problem with discounting Silence's vote. =P

@zetsumoto: Unless he's willing to step up and say he's an alt and confirm it with main account...I always feel some type of way about users with low post counts voting. I know with Luna's mod powers he can see if someone has the same IP, but still...it doesn't look right to me IMO. No matter which way the vote swings...

No swearing please, this is a nice community and we will not tolerate your s***. I'll have you banned y'know!

Halfway through Zetsumoto's 2nd post. I'll get there guys, bear with me.

Wow...sigh...this is complicated. I had to go back, reread and recheck stuff several times and I'm still confused about a few things, but I'll vote based on things as I understand them. A few high/low points:

• I was convinced that the nanites thing would work more or less as advertised.
• The (I forget what it's called "Zet's magic goop") could congregate on the end of a round, and spread out over the round and do what it's supposed to after the round is fired, so the range and speed of these rounds should be uneffected.
• The goop thing (or whatever sensory power it gives Zets) could be set at a LIMITED passive setting with short range, but wouldn't detect the team on the grounds until actual attacks (bullets coming in, portal activation) happened, then (in my opinion) it would blink into complete effect.
• I see no reason why someone with The Black Panther's intellect and 24 hours prep couldn't plot out portal points to attack from, stage from, and ingress from.
• The "Toph" character (forgive me I don't remember who it was) should have no trouble detecting rounds in flight (I don't remember if that character is fast enough to dodge them or not).
• I don't see why the "God Eye" thing wouldn't be able to detect such a rudimentary camouflage system as Bloodshot's.
• I don't think Zet's physicals would let him react to his ability to perceive.

So...

By a narrow margin, mainly due to the last factor I'm going to have to vote for the assassination team. Hope I didn't misunderstand too much.

@heroup2112: I think you voted from a very positive viewpoint, thanks appreciate the vote and well detailed points. Even though you voted for us, If you could please pm me some things you think the team could improve on for future battles. Thanks again for your time.

@asgardianbrony: @deathhero61: Hey thanks for voting. If you could please pm me some things you think our team could improve upon that may not be already highlighted in your vote.

@zetsumoto: @lukehero: We can establish a post count for voters. I have no problem with that.

@heroup2112: That was an awesome breakdown. I think it's very positive you shared it. A very balanced look some people could do better to emulate :)

bump

Extra Bumping

@kingcrimson: Thanks ??. Appericate the effort.

I don't have much of a post count, but have been on CV for a while. I saw it slightly different than @heroup2112

• I wasn't convinced the nanites would work as described without issues. It seemed like there would be issues with at least some of the team.
• I was convinced on the Kakari and God Eyes, but am not sure if Zets physicals could respond fast enough to target everyone
• Black Panther's prep could be a massive issue, but detection seemed to be covered by the God Eyes.
• The portals would still be an issue with attacks from so many directions. However, God Eyes and physicals could be enough to target most attackers, perhaps all, but that's not certain. Unless Zets was able to be pre-emptive as he described, but that's unclear as well.
• I didn't think the Kakari issue on rounds was as big of an issue as the team described.

Anyway, this could go either way. I'm leaning slightly for @zetsumoto

@cosmicdude: Thank you for taking the time to read and do a very detailed breakdown. If you could please pm me any feedback about how the team could have done better.

As far as the post count goes, I honestly feel the same way about Silence Dogs vote as yours even though Silence Dog counted for us. I realize there are a lot of Alts and lurkers out there that don't have high post counts, but I would rather not have super low posts counts votes be counted as official votes, but rather those viners read and leave detailed feedback as you have done.

@lukehero: I would like to get away from trying to determine whose votes should count and whose don't. If Zets wins because some new guy or some lurker likes him, whatever. To me, it feels a bit too much like saying 18 year olds shouldn't vote during elections.

Christ that was long.

Wow...sigh...this is complicated. I had to go back, reread and recheck stuff several times and I'm still confused about a few things, but I'll vote based on things as I understand them.

This x10.

Not to plagiarize too much (@heroup2112) but I think giving a general YES/GOOD or NO/BAD to the major themes of the debate is a sweet idea, so...

• Was I convinced that Zets would know the team was coming? Yes and no. I think he provided sufficient evidence that the Kakari heightened his awareness to an extent, and enough to give him a heads up before he was ripped apart by gunfire. Not so sure he would be aware where everybody was, feel their sins etc as soon as they step onto the grounds.
• Was I convinced his eyes could spot the team through Bloodshot's cloaking device? Yes
• Was I convinced that Warlock could use the nanites as effectively as Bloodshot? Yes.
• Was I convinced sharing them with the team would go down without a hitch? No. More on that below.
• Was I convinced the Kakari could be applied to bullets with minimal issues? Yes.
• Was I convinced the team could open a portal using Rick's gun? Yes. Considering how long they've had it in-story and considering they have BP, I was convinced he could figure out how to open a portal.
• Was I convinced Toph could detect rifle rounds in the air? Maybe, but not before it was too late. Sniper rounds are usually around Mach 2 or 3. It seemed to me it would be a lot harder than detecting flying rocks.
• Was I convinced Zets could react in nanoseconds? No.
• Was I convinced Zets could react in time to counter portal openings? Yes. Feats were provided of Juuzu keeping up with a supersonic character, the eyes should only assist him in that speed.

The Assassins: Personally, whilst the prep and attack plans were a little OTT and maybe a slight pain to read due to length, I appreciate the effort that went in to cover all bases. Really solid job.

Whilst I thought the team had sufficient feats to fight blind, I don't think blindfolding yourselves before stepping through portals to other dimensions is a great idea. The worlds might not be hostile, but the different smells, textures, sounds and God knows what else might only serve to confuse the situation. I was also a little confused how the team would know when to hop in and out of dimensions if there was no way to communicate across that distance.

As mentioned above, I wasn't completely convinced injecting the nanites was totally safe. There were several scans that implied and showed that it wasn't something just done risk-free. Although you showed it was possible I feel like the gravity of doing it was kind of glossed over, as were a few questions relating to the nanites, especially towards the final posts.

Other than that really, I think your posts were pretty solid given the scale of this debate.

Zetsumoto: Hats off to you. I think for you make a solid argument against 7 custom built characters is no mean feat. However...

I think you overestimated a few of your abilities, particularly the nanosecond reaction time and your sensing feats in general. It mainly came from the fact that you glossed over Leo's experience with the eyes as meaningless and that anybody could use them no problems, but I don't think enough evidence was provided.

There was also the stuff about you not creating an RP for your character, but I feel like that ties in with the above and is only really damning to yourself once you get into these kind of debates.

Both sides put out great arguments and despite its length it was actually really good read (the parts I understood lol!) but I have to give my vote to Zetsumoto.

Coming up with an argument that casts a reasonable doubt on the plans of a team of 7 with full knowledge and 24 hours prep is outstanding. I think he proved that the nanites plan could cause 'dissension in the ranks' as it were, and that he could react in time to give himself a fighting chance.

Props to both teams for taking the time to write out that massive battle.

Yeah, it was very very close...it was the last point that pushed me SLIGHTLY over the edge in favor of the team.

Basically this sums up my thoughts on the debate.

@heroup2112@lukehero

One area where I think the attacking team missed was in prep. With full knowledge, they would know Zets' only range weapon was the single .50 caliber with Kakari. Perhaps more weapons could have been created during the 24 hours, but Zets really only had one way to attack from a distance. The team's strategy got them all within range, albeit with arguments about stealth, movement, portals, sensing, and the like along with the potential for surprise. Given their knowledge of the God Eyes and Kakari, there should have been some concern that surprise may not work and if they got hit it may cause some real damage unless they think they can tank his attacks. It makes sense for the team to assume Zets is going to get some shots in at a minimum.

An alternative is to target the .50 caliber from the very start to destroy any chance of range attacks from Zets. A stealth precision strike might do this or multiple portals with Pym arrows or overwhelming range attacks by various weapons or other options. Karnak's sense could help pinpoint pre-planned targets although I'm not sure at what distance is his maximum effective range.

At this point it would have been impossible for Zets to survive.

What is it now? 4 - 3?

@cosmicdude: There isn't a single player on the Assassination team that should have problems dodging bullets and Zets didn't have the physicals to keep up with anyone on the team. His build was from outdated rules that limited speed by a significant degree. There was no reason to assume his bullets would work given the reaction speed of the players.

Additionally, Zets would have had to be very specific as to who to target in order to disrupt the strategy used. Further, Zets outright stated in his argument that he will stand in front of the portals and fire into them. This exposes him to the unseen grenades coming in and the attackers that would be coming from other directions.

I don't have a problem with your vote though. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on who wins. I just think you may have missed things that we accounted for is all.

@erik_soong: All fair points and you certainly spent way more time preparing than I've been thinking about this. Perhaps I misinterpreted Luna's comment about bullet timing at the very start of his post.

Still, once the team was in range of the .50 caliber, he should be able to sense and attack. You could be right about whether those would be effective or not.

My comment from ~30 minutes ago was just to give an idea on another option. Lukehero had asked for feedback in an earlier post.

It was a fun debate to read and think about. I'll keep following it.

@cosmicdude: Thanks for taking the time to read it. I know it was a lot. Luna's comment about bullet-timing was in regards to Zets' argument that we will be unable to dodge the bullets. Originally, the limitations were to be below bullet-timing. Luna decided during the character building phase to update the rules to make it so guns don't automatically kill everyone. However, Zets did not update his build to reflect that, likely because he didn't see the change. His build falls within those old restrictions, ours do not.

Luna did not want Zets' argument against our physical limitations to count against Zets, because he made the argument in ignorance of the rules. Likewise, Luna did not want our strategy for teleporting Zets to count against us, because we were also ignorant to an update on teleporting restrictions. However, because Zets' physicals are relevant to the argument, his were valid for us to attack.

The feedback is also appreciated. Thank you for your input.

@erik_soong: False. When I found out that Juzuu was slower than the limits, I simply switched to his RE manga feats. Post time skip Juzuu fought Ayato, who is fast enough to cause sonic booms, and fires energy bullets that way faster than himself (which Juzuu was dodging on screen).

I only needed to kill Lukehero to mess up your team, and his character was busy multitasking, while flying blindfolded, and working off of someone else's senses(something you didnt even prove you could do). Not to mention his only flying feat involved a helicopter keeping up with her. Your characters may be bullet timers, but you blindfolded yourselves, eliminating tpyour only method of sensing bullets in motion. Seismic senses do not reach into the air, and they do not sense things faster than sound. Her ability to detect Earth in the air is not related to her seismic sense.

@lvenger: @kingcrimson: @heroup2112: I'd like to point out to all 3 of you that my character never needed to react in "nanoseconds". It's was neither necessary to win, nor was it even an argument I ever made. Nanoseconds are light speed range, while all pf the characters in this tourney are sub mach in speed.

That is a huge gap. The point of the slowed perception is to give my character time to plan his moves in advanced, predict movements, calculate trajectories, and 100% eliminate any and all delays in reaction speed. With perception speed slowed to a degree in which time itself is completely frozen, Juzuu would by default, have the absolute best reaction timing physically possible for his body. Despite my opponents' claims that he was slower than the limits, this was actually untrue, as proven by his fight with Ayato. As I told Erik, I simply switched to more current feats, when I realized the speed limit got bumped.

With all that in mind, + the fact that his characters had not posted any feats proving that they could sense at to 400 meter limit (not to mention they completely ignored the 400 meter limit), I think it is quite reasonable that my character could have taken out Lukehero, and walked out of there. He really was the only one who needed to be eliminated for me to escape. I think that fact was lost on a few of the voters.

In any case, thanks for the votes.

It's funilando man.

Everyone STOP. The debate is over, there is no more debating. That isn't what this thread is for.

Zets. Why on Earth would you think it was okay to just switch the version of a character used in the middle of a debate without asking the GM first, or even notifying your opponents that it had changed? This has never been allowed and is basically unheard of. I agreed to allow a certain version of a character and I was never consulted about any change to that build. From the sounds of it the character you switched to was above the rules for what you were allowed anyway.

Going forward all of Zets' manga feats provided for his body are struck from the debate. They are invalid.

@deathhero61@kingcrimson@asgardianbrony I am going to have to ask you to re-evaluate the debate given this new information.

We never made any agreement on the version of Juzuu. When you judged Banter's old character who broke limits, you said it was fine as long as he didn't use feats that break limits. I didn't use any feats that broke limits (with the update in speed rules, I don't have feats that break limits). RE is a sequel. This is not a separate version, this is the same character with more current feats.

@zetsumoto: Good luck friend!

@zetsumoto: You used a different version of the character than the one that I originally OK'd. When you described to me what the character was capable of that is not the same as what you ended up using. Everyone who wanted multiple versions of a character specified composite. You did not specify composite.

If someone started the match with Captain America and then halfway through started using Ultimate Captain America feats I would laugh them out of my game.

@lunacyde: RE Juzuu is not a separate continuity like Ultimate cap, nor did he receive any special amps. Tokyo Ghoul RE is just the sequel. It's the exact same character, his feats were just better; presumably due to training. It's like opening with feats from First Avenger, then using Winter Soldier and Civil War feats in your next post (He greatly improved in the latter 2 movies).