Ben. Garou doesn't have nearly enough power to hurt Ben, even as monster Garou, and nowhere near the durability to tank his blows. Current Garou is city level at best, and Monster Garou isn't much stronger.
@toratorn: Characters across all walks of fiction tank punches that send them through walls or mountains but get harmed by arrows or bullets - how can you say it doesn’t exist lol?
In real terms it’s not a thing, but in fiction it’s consistently shown to be the case, IMO.
Ben. Garou doesn't have nearly enough power to hurt Ben, even as monster Garou, and nowhere near the durability to tank his blows. Current Garou is city level at best, and Monster Garou isn't much stronger.
@kingcrimson: characters who can tank being punched through mountains getting hurt by bullets and arrows is PIS, nothing else. That and the result of different authors having different views on how tough one character is supposed to be. More than that, a punch that would send one flying through a mountain (just like a, say, sufficiently large explosion or a hit from a speedster) would produce way more pressure per area than a bullet or arrow would, and thus, would be a much more "piercing" attack.
But if you want to say that that's not how pressure or physical force works in fiction, then we could just as well throw the entire tier system out of the window and don't bother quantifying feats at all. After all, how do you know anything in fiction works like in real life? Speed, energy, heat, everything.
@toratorn: Chief, it was 3 v 1 and you were annihilated. People stop replying once they realize they're talking to a brick wall.
Forgive me for the rudeness, but yes, split durability exists in fiction; trying to refute it with real word physics doesn't change that. Do you have any idea how many feats in fiction defy physics?
@higherpower: millions of flies can't be mistaken, right? No noteworthy arguments were brought up by the opposition regardless of the amount of opposition.
Oh, sorry I'm using common sense to look at feats instead of some completely arbitrary split durability BS. And yes, I know how many feats contradict physics. But unless you're trying to tell me that punches work drastically different in fiction as opposed to real life, all the times when a character gets hurt by bullets/arrows/swords when he regularly walks through nukes, building-busters, earthquake-causing hits and etc. can be simply dismissed as low ends, similar to the times said character gets hurt by, say, street levelers.
And even then, the statement that "Ben has no sufficient piercing durability" is a blatant lie. And all the "piercing feats" that Garou had were either against rocks or featless fodder.
But unless you're trying to tell me that punches work drastically different in fiction as opposed to real life, all the times when a character gets hurt by bullets/arrows/swords when he regularly walks through nukes, building-busters, earthquake-causing hits and etc. can be simply dismissed as low ends, similar to the times said character gets hurt by, say, street levelers.
Convenient, isn't it? But after a while, too many low ends just make a character inconsistent (prime example - Gladiator), so this isn't a winning route and it doesn't actually lend any credence to your argument. You still have nothing to substantiate the idea that a character who is regularly pierced by bullets or can be pierced by arrows (like Kratos) wouldn't be harmed say... a sword slash from Ryuko that cuts building's in half. Tanking a punch that can level city blocks is fine and dandy, but the area over which the pressure is applied at the edge of a blade is much smaller than it is in a fist.
The applied force is much more concentrated and acute in weapons like swords, so they damages cells easier. This is the same line of logic that backs up why atomic/molecular attacks ignore durability. They happen on a much smaller scale. This is also the reason why piercing attacks stop being piercing attacks if the area of said attack is larger than or as large as the targets body, which is something I'm sure I've told you before.
And even then, the statement that "Ben has no sufficient piercing durability" is a blatant lie. And all the "piercing feats" that Garou had were either against rocks or featless fodder.
To my knowledge, most of his piercing durability feats consist of simply being bulletproof. Whirlwind Iron Cutting fist manipulates air to deal piercing damage, and I doubt any standard firearm bullet can seamlessly carve through several tons of stone like butter.
Garou’s probably almost at the level where he can surpass and beat Ben but I’m not sure if he can do that for a majority as of now. He does have the speed and skill to dance around Ben like Shatterstar and Daken have though and both are below Garou.
@higherpower: I don't really care about Gladiator or Kratos. I am all for ignoring any amount of low ends as long as there is a decent amount of high end feats; I never bought the "Gladiator is a mid-tier" argument either. And I'm not versed in GoW enough to argue about his durability (but my guess would be it had something to do with either gameplay mechanics or arrows being launched by people strong enough to hurt Kratos in the first place, as opposed to him being weak enough to be hurt by regular arrows). If you want to argue Ben's showings against piercing damage not corresponding to his overall durability, then go on, show these indtancies. Instead of, you know, arguing on baseless claims.
As for the whole pressure thing... Did you actually count exactly how much bigger the area of a fist is compared to an area of, say, sword or, in this exact case, Garou's hand? Because I'm going to assure you that punches from people who range from city to continental level and higher would produce billions, if not trillions, of times more pressure than some rock/fodder slashing attacks per same area.
Piercing attacks don't stop being piercing with bigger area of contract. You take a fist-sized projectile and accelerate it enough/push it with enough force, it would pierce through matter in the same way as a smaller projectile would. That's how railgin projectiles work.
And last of all, no, his piercing feats are not just being bulletproof. He was hit by Terrax's axe without being sliced in half, he was unhurt after being rammed by Rhino's horn (while the same horn hurt classic Hulk), he was hitting a spike-shaped force fields without his hide being damaged (the same force field was tough enough to tank a blow from Ben when it was smooth). All this shit is way more "piercing" than Garou's Iron Cutting Fist (which, once again, only cut through rocks and fodder) can ever hope to be.
@lvenger: not even monster Garou is on the level where he can adapt to Ben and surpass him. Especially considering most times he surpassed his enemies was through intense beatdown that left him almost dead.
Human Torch is faster than either Shatterstar, Daken or Garou, and Ben tags him regularly. Street tiers dancing around Ben is the same level of BS as street tiers dancing around Hulk or Iron Man. Sides, he tagged Daken on the very next page. And, IIRC, did the same to Shatterstar in the next issue of their fight.
If you want to argue Ben's showings against piercing damage not corresponding to his overall durability, then go on, show these indtancies. Instead of, you know, arguing on baseless claims.
You can't be seriously asking me to show you instances of Ben being vulnerable to sufficient piercing damage after literally saying that you would dismiss such instances as "low showings". And true to self, when several people posted multiple instances of Thor's bad piercing durability and I mentioned Wonder Woman's vulnerability to bullets in another thread, you did exactly what you said you would do. That is, chalking it up to PIS and blaming these "low showings" on writers without ever posting feats to counter them.
As for the whole pressure thing... Did you actually count exactly how much bigger the area of a fist is compared to an area of, say, sword or, in this exact case, Garou's hand?
Red flag number one. Garou's hand isn't what cuts. Whirlwind Iron Cutting Fist works by manipulating the air to create tiny sharp rotations, as was stated by Murata and clearly shown on-panel every time it's used.
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One Punch Man #90
Because I'm going to assure you that punches from people who range from city to continental level and higher would produce billions, if not trillions, of times more pressure than some rock/fodder slashing attacks per same area.
Well duh. I've never argued against this. That's why split durability becomes irrelevant at high enough levels. The problem is that it's not set in stone what level that is. But no, I would never argue that someone who no-sells planet busters would get hurt by a kitchen knife.
Piercing attacks don't stop being piercing with bigger area of contract. You take a fist-sized projectile and accelerate it enough/push it with enough force, it would pierce through matter in the same way as a smaller projectile would. That's how railgin projectiles work.
Yes it does. Speed matters but not nearly as much as area of effect. If you get hit by a speeding truck going 150 mph, it would be classified as blunt force. But if the truck was the size of an action figurine and going at the same speed, it would be classified as piercing on the battle forums. This is the concept of energy density.
And last of all, no, his piercing feats are not just being bulletproof. He was hit by Terrax's axe without being sliced in half, he was unhurt after being rammed by Rhino's horn (while the same horn hurt classic Hulk), he was hitting a spike-shaped force fields without his hide being damaged (the same force field was tough enough to tank a blow from Ben when it was smooth).
Can you post these? Because I had an extensive debate with @juiceboks with some help from @battle123axe over Thing's piercing durability, and the best feat I was given was Thing no-selling being bitten by the Blood Brothers.
@toratorn: Pretty sure Monster Garou is above Ben though I know your thoughts already on Thing vs OPM verse characters.
It's usually with a thunderclap that dampens Johnny's flame rather than direct contact though. And unlike Hulk or Iron Man, Ben doesn't have their speed feats.
You can't be seriously asking me to show you instances of Ben being vulnerable to sufficient piercing damage after literally saying that you would dismiss such instances as "low showings". And true to self, when several people posted multiple instances of Thor's bad piercing durability and I mentioned Wonder Woman's vulnerability to bullets in another thread, you did exactly what you said you would do. That is, chalking it up to PIS and blaming these "low showings" on writers without ever posting feats to counter them.
Alright, I'll paraphrase then. You said this in your previous post:
But after a while, too many low ends just make a character inconsistent (prime example - Gladiator), so this isn't a winning route and it doesn't actually lend any credence to your argument. You still have nothing to substantiate the idea that a character who is regularly pierced by bullets or can be pierced by arrows (like Kratos) wouldn't be harmed say... a sword slash from Ryuko that cuts building's in half.
So I suggest you bring up the times when Ben was hurt by "piercing damage" that he, logically, shouldn't be hurt by considering his overall durability, and I'll bring up ocasions when Ben tanked attacks that were not piercing, but should have logically put more pressure on the same area of his skin than, say, a sword/arrow/bullet/whatever piercing bullshit you'll find (or, alternatively, a piercing damage that he tanked). And then we'll compare what's consistent or not. And then, like in cases with Gladiator or Kratos, we'll decide what's more consistent.
Red flag number one. Garou's hand isn't what cuts. Whirlwind Iron Cutting Fist works by manipulating the air to create tiny sharp rotations, as was stated by Murata and clearly shown on-panel every time it's used.
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One Punch Man #90
Fair enough, I completely forgot how Whirlwind Fist was depicted. So once again, I'll paraphrase:
As for the whole pressure thing... Did you actually count exactly how much bigger the area of a fist is compared to an area of, say, sword or, in this exact case, air current created by Garou's technique?
Well duh. I've never argued against this. That's why split durability becomes irrelevant at high enough levels. The problem is that it's not set in stone what level that is. But no, I would never argue that someone who no-sells planet busters would get hurt by a kitchen knife.
So wait... Where exactly does the line between "split durability exists" and "split durability doesn't matter" lie? Because so far it sounds pretty damn arbitrary.
Okay. Let's abstract themselves from Ben and Garou. There is a some abstract guy who can ignore nukes, tank impacts that cause earthquakes, no-sell pressures strong enough to level mountains, tank falls from orbit and hits from people who can cause global seimsic activity with their blows. And then there is an abstract guy who can slice apart rocks and monsters with vaguely superhuman chracteristics. Will the second guy be able to slice apart the first guy?
Yes it does. Speed matters but not nearly as much as area of effect. If you get hit by a speeding truck going 150 mph, it would be classified as blunt force. But if the truck was the size of an action figurine and going at the same speed, it would be classified as piercing on the battle forums. This is the concept of energy density.
Are you sure about that? Tornado winds don't go beyond the speed of sound, but the the speed of the wind is enough to turn what is in its inert state a blunt object into a piercing projectile:
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Bonus points for the fact that the "projectiles" are in some of the cases less durable than the "targets". So you greately underestimate how much speed matters in this shit.
A question then. A human body flying at mach 3 with its fists clenched and arms extended beyond the main body (sorry for awkward wording). Getting hit by such a "projectile" (the fist, not the body) would be classified as a piercing damage or blunt damage?
Can you post these? Because I had an extensive debate with @juiceboks with some help from @battle123axe over Thing's piercing durability, and the best feat I was given was Thing no-selling being bitten by the Blood Brothers.
Sure, why not.
Terrax:
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Rhino (classic Hulk and Joe Fixit for comparison):
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Occulus (that guy with forcefields):
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And some less significant random piercing shit that didn't work on Ben either:
Ben wins eventually even if he doesn't have the speed 2 keep up with garou he has enough durability feats both piercings & blunt force 2 suggest he can't be put down by garou at best only slightly injured which isnt enough 4 a win
@toratorn: Pretty sure Monster Garou is above Ben though I know your thoughts already on Thing vs OPM verse characters.
It's usually with a thunderclap that dampens Johnny's flame rather than direct contact though.
Not really.
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Notes: on fifth scan it's not Torch, but a more powerful bloodlusted double of him created by a reality warper. We don't see how Ben tagged him, only when he is in Ben's grip. In fourth scan Ben is possessed by some alien goop.
And unlike Hulk or Iron Man, Ben doesn't have their speed feats.
He does have plenty speed feats on his own (and he scales to Hulk anyway).
Intercepting sound beams, catching rockets, catching tank shells, reacting to bullets, intercepting an arrow fired by Taskmaster using Hawkeye's skills (and we all know how fast Hawkeye's arrows can be):
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Dodging almost-sound-speed tires, smashing a helicopter in a split milisecond, tagging Annihilus; reacting to meteors, deflecting meteors:
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Stopping bullrushes from Black Bolt, Sunspot, War Machine, Captain Mar-Vell:
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According to narration, beats up some thugs in a blink of an eye, tags Spider-Woman and Hyperion who are trying to fly away:
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Tags Spider-Man despite his Spider-Sense, tags Star-Dancer, who is fast enough to dance around meteors, repeatedly:
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There was also a time when he tagged Anti-Venom from behind and supposedly beat the shit out of him off-panel, but I'm not sure if it's particularly impressive as I don't remember if Anti-Venom has Spider-Sense or not. He also had a fight against Gambit and supposedly should have tagged him at some point as well:
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And of course, that instance with Shatterstar that happened an issue later from their first fight:
Ghost Rider can't tag him for shit and got blitzed:
After thinking about this more since our last debate on this @higherpower Garou can win via piercing attacks. Ben doesn't have much resistance to that manner of damage relative to his other showings against blunt force and energy attacks. An argument can also be made for pressure point attacks since Ben's history with that is somewhat inconsistent.
Notes: on fifth scan it's not Torch, but a more powerful bloodlusted double of him created by a reality warper. We don't see how Ben tagged him, only when he is in Ben's grip. In fourth scan Ben is possessed by some alien goop.
Johnny is close to the ground and not moving at anywhere close to to speed. Not really a reaction feat.
Ben uses superbreath to tag which is not only an inconsistent power for him to use period to but an AOE indirect attack same as a thunderclap.
Johnny was trying to diffuse the tension and didn't make any moves or attempts to evade Ben in combat. Not a speed feat at all.
Another AOE from a possessed Ben using sand and Johnny recovers in time to dodge debris thrown by Ben.
No context here so no idea if the bloodlusted clone was in the middle of avoiding Ben or moving at superspeed. Lack of context invalidates its usefulness.
Johnny charging straight at Ben and getting walloped close quarter isn't a showing of speed for Ben, it's CIS for Johnny to get that close.
Intercepting sound beams, catching rockets, catching tank shells, reacting to bullets, intercepting an arrow fired by Taskmaster using Hawkeye's skills (and we all know how fast Hawkeye's arrows can be):
All except the first one have been done by street levellers so that's not good enough. Ben moving at the speed of sound isn't consistent for him in combat whereas Garou uses his speed in every fight and was easily moving faster than sound whilst weakened and injured against a group of Class C and B heroes.
Dodging almost-sound-speed tires, smashing a helicopter in a split milisecond, tagging Annihilus; reacting to meteors, deflecting meteors:
None of these are really more impressive than Garou's speed feats like keeping up with the same Genos who managed to outspeed Speed o'Sound Sonic at one point. Whilst injured as well. So Ben is going to struggle to tag Garou if he doesn't want to be hit I'm afraid.
Stopping bullrushes from Black Bolt, Sunspot, War Machine, Captain Mar-Vell:
Garou won't blitz Ben in a straight line like these guys did though, he'll probably use a Fist of Flowing Water move that involves multiple attacks and has blitzed faster than Ben.
According to narration, beats up some thugs in a blink of an eye, tags Spider-Woman and Hyperion who are trying to fly away:
Garou has moved FTE whilst injured so not nearly good enough. And Hyperion wasn't moving at top speed yet hence why Ben said he had to grab him before he flew away.
Tags Spider-Man despite his Spider-Sense, tags Star-Dancer, who is fast enough to dance around meteors, repeatedly:
Garou is massively faster than Spider-Man and massively more skilled so tagging Peter isn't enough to tag Garou. As for Star Dancer, she didn't use her speed in the instances Ben tagged her. She just got her to an abandoned church that Ben pulled down and just stood there surprised that he had withstood her attack. Those aren't speed feats when a character with superspeed doesn't use it.
There was also a time when he tagged Anti-Venom from behind and supposedly beat the shit out of him off-panel, but I'm not sure if it's particularly impressive as I don't remember if Anti-Venom has Spider-Sense or not. He also had a fight against Gambit and supposedly should have tagged him at some point as well:
Again Anti Venom and Gambit are inconsequential examples to compare with Garou in terms of speed. Furthermore, Ben doesn't consistently employ the kind of speed you posted whereas Garou does.
And of course, that instance with Shatterstar that happened an issue later from their first fight:
Looks like Ben caught them by surprise whereas when he tried to tag a ready Shatterstar, this happened.
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Ghost Rider can't tag him for shit and got blitzed:
>Ghost Rider can't tag him
>Shows scans of Ben getting tagged by Blaze's Hellfire
Seems legit.
Blitzing Fixit (reverse order):
Pineapple amped Thing so not applicable to standard Ben's capabilities.
And the last one, 99 hits in two panels:
Do you have the issue number for this scan? The art looks a bit cartoony and I'm not sure whether if it's canon. In any case Ben doesn't fight nearly that fast whereas Garou does consistently. I've been reading Fantastic Four comics for years and have been reading the OPM manga up to its current chapter. It's clear the speed gap between Ben and Garou is massive and now Juiceboks is saying Ben's piercing durability isn't that great, Garou may clinch the win without needing to be in his Monster form.
Johnny is close to the ground and not moving at anywhere close to to speed. Not really a reaction feat.
Johnny's reaction speed corresponds to his flight speed. He consistently maneuvers at high speeds and percieves his environment as well. Tagging him at all even while he is explicitly trying to not get tagged (just like he did in the scan, you could see his trajectory) is a superhuman speed feat. Not only that, to my knowledge, never did Ben (or Sue and Reed) fail to percieve Johnny going at high speed. Ben scales to Torch's speed anyway.
Ben uses superbreath to tag which is not only an inconsistent power for him to use period to but an AOE indirect attack same as a thunderclap.
It's a power he had used many times and in this particular case has nothing to do with AOE, with it being a directed air current. Johnny couldn't dodge it.
Johnny was trying to diffuse the tension and didn't make any moves or attempts to evade Ben in combat. Not a speed feat at all.
Fair.
Another AOE from a possessed Ben using sand and Johnny recovers in time to dodge debris thrown by Ben.
No it's not. It's literally a narrow directed stream of sand. Moving 30 cm sideways would have left Johnny untagged. Yet he didn't move.
No context here so no idea if the bloodlusted clone was in the middle of avoiding Ben or moving at superspeed. Lack of context invalidates its usefulness.
These are two previous pages.
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We don't see how Ben grabbed him, but he decisevely tagged him two pages ago (first scan) and the rest of FF were fighting other doubles. Unless the double of Torch became brain-damaged after that hit or allowed to be grabbed on purpose (very doubtful), there was no other way for Ben to grab him exept for tagging him against his will.
Johnny charging straight at Ben and getting walloped close quarter isn't a showing of speed for Ben, it's CIS for Johnny to get that close.
Yes it is. Johnny's intention wasn't to get hit in the face, he could have dodged that punch. Yet he didn't. Ben was too fast.
All except the first one have been done by street levellers so that's not good enough. Ben moving at the speed of sound isn't consistent for him in combat whereas Garou uses his speed in every fight and was easily moving faster than sound whilst weakened and injured against a group of Class C and B heroes.
Pretty much every Marvel street tier is supersonic (at the very least) with dozens of FTE and bullet dodging feats (some with microsecond feats too). Ben tagged several of them on several occasions (Spider-Man, Gambit and Anti-Venom being the clearest examples), so him having supersonic reaction speed is a logical conclusion to that. Also, I wasn't arguing that these speed feats are what allows him to tag Garou (tagging Human Torch is more than enough for that). I was arguing that street tiers (like Daken and Shatterstar) have no business blitzing Ben considering his speed feats. I'll quote myself:
Street tiers dancing around Ben is the same level of BS as street tiers dancing around Hulk or Iron Man.
None of these are really more impressive than Garou's speed feats like keeping up with the same Genos who managed to outspeed Speed o'Sound Sonic at one point. Whilst injured as well. So Ben is going to struggle to tag Garou if he doesn't want to be hit I'm afraid.
Meteors travel at speeds ranging from 11 to 70 km/s. The ones that were artifically tugged to Earth must have been moving even faster considering they were brought out from outer space to Earth in one panel. Even fodder Annihilation Wave can travel 250 000 kms in 4 minutes (Fantastic Four #587), and Annihillus is obviously superior to his fodder. So no, he wouldn't have any trouble tagging Garou anyway. Disregarding the fact that I wasn't bringing up the speed feats to compare Ben to Garou, but oh well.
Garou won't blitz Ben in a straight line like these guys did though, he'll probably use a Fist of Flowing Water move that involves multiple attacks and has blitzed faster than Ben.
Performing even a simple action (like, say, swinging one's arm) while a guy who can casually fly outside Earth's atmosphere in moments (Black Bolt, Namor, Mar-Vell all have such feats, and I'm pretty sure that Iron Man armours inferior to War Machine suit do to) barely moves a dozen meters is an insane combat speed feat. Regardless of people flying in a straight line or not. Garou doesn't have that kind of speed.
That and, as we saw in Garou's battle against Darkshine in webcomic, his Fist of Flowing Water can't do shit against an opponent who is massively stronger and tougher than him. And Ben is exactly that kind of opponent.
Garou has moved FTE whilst injured so not nearly good enough. And Hyperion wasn't moving at top speed yet hence why Ben said he had to grab him before he flew away.
Garou is massively faster than Spider-Man and massively more skilled so tagging Peter isn't enough to tag Garou. As for Star Dancer, she didn't use her speed in the instances Ben tagged her. She just got her to an abandoned church that Ben pulled down and just stood there surprised that he had withstood her attack. Those aren't speed feats when a character with superspeed doesn't use it.
Garou doesn't have precog that explicitly warns him that an attacks is going to come. Peter does. Gets hit in the facre regardless.
Star Dancer was doing nothing but showing off her speed for the whole issue. Yet she got hit by a boulder and couldn't dodge Ben smashing her with a freaking building. Unless you imply that she was standing there and waiting for a rock and a goddamn church to hit her in the face despite. Her reaction is enough to dodge meteors from a close range, so if that shit Ben chucked at her was moving slower than that, she would see it basicallt in slowmotion and dodge the hell out of it, and then gloat about her speed. But she didn't. Ben tagged her fair and square. Unless you're trying to argue that she forgot about her powers in span of one issue.
Again Anti Venom and Gambit are inconsequential examples to compare with Garou in terms of speed. Furthermore, Ben doesn't consistently employ the kind of speed you posted whereas Garou does.
Ignoring that I wasn't bringing arguing about Garou anyway, consistently tagging people who make Garou look like a snail (Torch, Annihilus, all the guys who failed to bullrush him) instead of, you know, getting his ass blitzed, sounds like a consistent combat speed to me.
Looks like Ben caught them by surprise whereas when he tried to tag a ready Shatterstar, this happened.
What? Shatterstar was looking at him for the whole time. He wouldn't be taken by surprise unless he suddenly became blind.
Besides, their entire first fight was a load of PIS regardless. Ben was chipped and ragdolled by blows from a street tier, while normally he woudn't be even phased. Made even worse that in the same issue he clowned Guido, an actual brick with strength above street level.
>Ghost Rider can't tag him
>Shows scans of Ben getting tagged by Blaze's Hellfire
Seems legit.
Yeah, let's cherrypick the only time Ghost Rider tagged him for the whole fight and ignore all the other ~10 times where he couldn't shoot him, couldn't hit him and was straight-up blitzed.
Pineapple amped Thing so not applicable to standard Ben's capabilities.
One: there was 0 indication it amped Ben's speed, only his strength and toughness. Two: he had fought a double of himself based on his Pineapple Thing form and they looked equal and straight-up out-performed his own Pineapple self in modern times on several occasions (like when Pineapple Ben couldn't one-shot Titania, but modern Ben could, or like when Pineapple Ben struggled with Klaw's construct while modern Ben walked right through it. Or like when Pineapple Ben was stunned by a blow from Hercules, while Ben in later fights against Herc didn't have that kind of a problem. Not to mention how Namor one-shot Pineapple Ben, but couldn't do so to a more modern Ben).
Do you have the issue number for this scan? The art looks a bit cartoony and I'm not sure whether if it's canon.
In any case Ben doesn't fight nearly that fast whereas Garou does consistently.
Adressed above.
I've been reading Fantastic Four comics for years and have been reading the OPM manga up to its current chapter.
Good for you, I guess.
It's clear the speed gap between Ben and Garou is massive
If we ignore Ben's speed feats and instancies of tagging everyone faster than Garou, then yes, the speed gap is massive.
and now Juiceboks is saying Ben's piercing durability isn't that great,
And considering I brought up piercing feats just two posts above Juiceboks's post (including the one where Ben repeatedly hits a spiked forcefield that is strong enough to no sell his hits without punching holes through his fists), it seems to me that he is a little full of shit. That's ignoring that Garou only sliced rocks and fodder (and literally no one important) and the whole "piercing durabilty is arbitrary bullshit" thing.
Garou may clinch the win without needing to be in his Monster form.
When he becomes strong enough to trade blows with Hulk or other Marvel powerhouses, maybe. For now? Hell no. Not even in Monster Garou form, which is practically featless outside of rounds of stacked scaling.
@toratorn: I'm only going to respond to the split durability part of the debate, because I don't care about who wins anymore and I don't have knowledge on those specific feats to argue against them.
So wait... Where exactly does the line between "split durability exists" and "split durability doesn't matter" lie? Because so far it sounds pretty damn arbitrary.
If common sense is arbitrary than so be it. The only existing argument against split durability is "When does it stop mattering? When does it become irrelevant? If x character can tank universe busting energy blast, would they get one-shotted by bullets just because one is piercing?" which is just caustic complaining.
Like I said, I would obviously agree that if a character can no-sell planet busters or supernovas then they wouldn't be harmed by basic punches or a knife/sword/arrow/bullet. But split durability is still a valid argument in most cases when the attacks aren't that far apart in power. Deciding when the gap is too large between a character's durability level against a specific type of attack and the offensive power of a different attack is indeed a subjective/arbitrary metric, but sometimes common sense can go a long way.
Okay. Let's abstract themselves from Ben and Garou. There is a some abstract guy who can ignore nukes, tank impacts that cause earthquakes, no-sell pressures strong enough to level mountains, tank falls from orbit and hits from people who can cause global seimsic activity with their blows. And then there is an abstract guy who can slice apart rocks and monsters with vaguely superhuman chracteristics. Will the second guy be able to slice apart the first guy?
"Slice apart rocks" is probably the biggest oversimplification I've seen for Garou's capabilities on that front. But to answer your question directly, I would say yes more often than not unless the first character has incredible piercing resistance.
Are you sure about that? Tornado winds don't go beyond the speed of sound, but the the speed of the wind is enough to turn what is in its inert state a blunt object into a piercing projectile:
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Bonus points for the fact that the "projectiles" are in some of the cases less durable than the "targets". So you greately underestimate how much speed matters in this shit.
This scan dump literally proves exactly what I was saying and completely disproves the notion that speed matters more than size difference. In every single one of those scans, the wooden beam is much smaller or thinner in area than the object it penetrated. Even if the beam was going at hypersonic speeds, as long as it's very narrow and concentrates most of it's force to a localized area, it will pierce through the target. If the beam was the size of a car and a tornado wind smashed it into another car, the collision would be blunt force, because the wooden beam is the same size as the car. Speed doesn't matter as much as size.
A question then. A human body flying at mach 3 with its fists clenched and arms extended beyond the main body (sorry for awkward wording). Getting hit by such a "projectile" (the fist, not the body) would be classified as a piercing damage or blunt damage?
I'm only going to respond to the split durability part of the debate, because I don't care about who wins anymore and I don't have knowledge on those specific feats to argue against them.
Bailing out of debate when arguments proving yourself wrong are presented. Classic. I guess next time we happen to argue you're going to bring this exchange up as "that time I spanked Tora in Garou vs Thing thread" anyways, right? Kind of like you did about the piercing debate thing from that old thread.
If common sense is arbitrary than so be it.
Considering that common sense and rudimentary physics says that there is no such thing as piercing durability or piercing damage, just the same old pressure, force and kinetic energy, but concentrated on smaller area and arbitrarily distinguished from any other pressure, force or kinetic energy, it seems to me you're either using some wrong common sense or don't do physics. Or both.
The only existing argument against split durability is "When does it stop mattering? When does it become irrelevant? If x character can tank universe busting energy blast, would they get one-shotted by bullets just because one is piercing?" which is just caustic complaining.
Only you don't even know for sure where that line lies and pick absolutely arbitrary answers to question "can X guy slice Y guy" based on personal opinions and 0 knowledge on either rudimentary physics or character's Y capabilities.
Like I said, I would obviously agree that if a character can no-sell planet busters or supernovas then they wouldn't be harmed by basic punches or a knife/sword/arrow/bullet. But split durability is still a valid argument in most cases when the attacks aren't that far apart in power. Deciding when the gap is too large between a character's durability level against a specific type of attack and the offensive power of a different attack is indeed a subjective/arbitrary metric, but sometimes common sense can go a long way.
It's absolutely not subjective. Everything can be properly calculated. Case in point, you tried to bring up that a truck ramming into a person isn't piercing damage. And I'm going to compare how much energy
I'll take 3.5 tons as truck's mass. And take 100 km/h (or about 27.8 m/s) for it's speed, since it's below most countries' speed limits. So calculating kinetic energy should be easy enough: 1352470 joules. Just to lowball, I'll take 3 square meters as area of impact of a truck (seeing how it's only a 3.5 ton truck, that doesn't seem far-fetched).
Kinetic energy of 30-06 bullet is 4050 joules. Impact area of that bullet would 0.071 square cm (or 7.1e-6 square meters). For clarity, I just pixel-scaled the diameter of impact area from the picture on that Wikipedia article and the length of a cartirifge (8.5 cm), got 0.3 cm and calculated the area of circle that is the impact area of a bullet: 0.071 square cm.
So for a truck, we get 1352470 joules to 3 square meters, and for a bullet we get 4050 joules per 7.1e-6 square meters. So 450823 joules per square meter for truck and 570422535 joules per square meter for a bullet. That's abour 1625 times more energy concentrated in bullet than in truck. But then again, somewhere near x1000 times is the gap between any tier lvl (for reference).
See? Easy. With enough creativity you can just as easily determine how much energy is put into Garou slicing rocks and how it compares to fist-sized portions of mountain-busting or global seismic activity-causing energies. And oh boy, the comparison won't be in Garou's favour.
"Slice apart rocks" is probably the biggest oversimplification I've seen for Garou's capabilities on that front. But to answer your question directly, I would say yes more often than not unless the first character has incredible piercing resistance.
Aaaaaand you just made a full circle and confirmed everything I said above about you picking arbitrary answers. "Split durability becomes irrelevant at certain levels, but I don't know for shit what these levels are and so gonna arbitrarily pick a character who can slice some shit over a character who I don't know shit about". That's you in the nutshell, btw.
This scan dump literally proves exactly what I was saying and completely disproves the notion that speed matters more than size difference. In every single one of those scans, the wooden beam is much smaller or thinner in area than the object it penetrated. Even if the beam was going at hypersonic speeds, as long as it's very narrow and concentrates most of it's force to a localized area, it will pierce through the target. If the beam was the size of a car and a tornado wind smashed it into another car, the collision would be blunt force, because the wooden beam is the same size as the car. Speed doesn't matter as much as size.
With enough speed you can make a truck produce more energy per square inch than a bullet. Replace "truck" with "any usually blunt object" and "bullet" with "any normally piercing object". Just making the truck I speculated about above about ~30 times heavier and accelerating it 10 times (3864200000 joules of kinetic energy) would make it produce 2857 more energy per same area than the truck with the stats I described above (or about 1.7 times more energy per square meter than a 30-06 bullet).
So by that logic, a bloody truck becomes more "piercing" than a freaking bullet. Does that make sense? No it doesn't. You know why? Because "piercing" isn't a thing from a physical standpoint. There's just energy, force and pressure. With only difference being the area of impact.
Both.
Which just goes on to prove that you have no idea even about your own definitions of piercing and blunt damage yourself. Or that the "piercing" and "blunt" are just arbitrarily distinctions based on nothing but surface area and that with some tweaks to speed and force a blunt projectile becomes piercing and vice a verse. Either way, you're full of shit.
Lol, what? If someone claims Hulk is universal and you post a universal feat, does that mean you proved them wrong? Even though the feat you posted is universal, Hulk consistently operates nowhere near that level so you didn't prove squat.
Which is relevant exactly why?
You'd just be taking advantage of that person's lack of knowledge on the feat you presented if they don't debunk it. When said person stops pursuing that debate, then you'll claim that you silenced them. That's literally what you're doing right now. I don't know jack about the feats you posted to argue against them, but I don't have to to know in order to know they're sketchy as long as people with extensive knowledge on Thing are still backing Garou.
Which may have something to do with their "knowledge" not being as extensive as you or they think. Or maybe they are simply stuck-up assholes. Like you!
Which brings me to my next point. The number one reason I wanted to drop the Garou vs Thing aspect of this exchange is because juiceboks replied to me and said Garou could win via piercing attacks, and also because @lvenger has been backing Garou thus far in this debate. Those are two of most highly respected debaters on this site who also happen to be inordinately more knowledgeable on Thing than I am. So forgive me for taking their words over yours, at least I did the respectful thing by deciding not to pursue debating with you over the matter rather than defer to their arguments and hide behind them.
>says Garou wins because Ben has no "piercing resistance feats"
>gets told there are feats
>asks for scans
>gets scans
>bails out
But classic though, right? Give yourself a pat on the back. You're such a good debater.
How ironic of you of all people to say that.
No. I'm not that big of a douche. I was just goading you when I did that here.
Except split durability clearly exists in fiction, which is the difference. I've told you before that there's no such thing as split durability in the real world. The concept that you can no-sell nukes and still get hurt by physical strikes disagrees with real world physics. But there are examples of characters across all mediums (western comics, East Asian comics such as manga/manwha and novels) who are shown to be vulnerable to one type of attack despite being resistant to others. Ergo, it's taken into consideration when debating these characters. I don't know why you can't wrap your head around this? The common sense I'm using applies to when it's appropriate to use split durability arguments when debating fictional characters and when it becomes outrageous.
"Lolfiction" is a weak argument. Or maybe the times when a guy who no sells nukes are simply... inconsistencies. You know, like all the other times when a guy who no sells nukes gets hurt by stuff not as potent as nukes? Unless there is an actual in-universe explanation for why bullets can hurt that guy.
What we're not gonna do is sit here and pretend like I didn't literally already say that deciding when to use it was arbitrary. You're not making a point here.
Basing your argument on arbitrary bullshit is no better than flipping the coin.
Because it isn't?
Didn't say it is. That was not the point.
All you did was prove split durability doesn't exist in real life. Bravo. You did something utterly worthless. I've said it multiple times in this thread, I've said it multiple times in the other thread we debated it.
But hey, at least you made yourself look smart right?
All you're trying to say is that in fiction bullets, swords and other piercing crap works drastically different than in real life. Which makes way less sense than writers being dumbasses and failing physics.
That's what you said yourself:
"Because I'm going to assure you that punches from people who range from city to continental level and higher would produce billions, if not trillions, of times more pressure than some rock/fodder slashing attacks per same area."
"Well duh. I've never argued against this. That's why split durability becomes irrelevant at high enough levels. The problem is that it's not set in stone what level that is. But no, I would never argue that someone who no-sells planet busters would get hurt by a kitchen knife."
So then you were fine with using real life logic, but now you're against it? You're spinning.
Not only that, if "piercing damage" is something entirely different from "blunt damage" in fiction anyway, as you claim, why would the big enough "blunt" durability feat make one immune to bullets and knife? You do realize that you contradicted yourself with that "stops mattering at high enough level" argument, do you?
Split durability is a valid argument when the attacks aren't too far apart. If a character can tank island level punches but have zero piercing durability feats, saying they'll get cut by a mountain level piercing attack is perfectly fine. Calling it arbitrary doesn't change the fact that that's the way characters are portrayed in fiction. I can scan bomb instances of Wonder Woman getting pierced by bullets, almost all of which you'll say are PIS. Bullshitting works both ways.
No they are not. You're just taking low ends that would usually be handwaved away and blowing them out of proportion for the sake of "split durability". Why not go all the way then? Everytime Captain America hurts someone way out of his weight class, just say that these characters have "low CaptainAmericapunches durability". If you're being stupid, why not go stupid all the way?
I already countered your truck example, but explain this from a physical standpoint?
Gallery
Do bullets have more force than punches from high tier characters? Huh? Do they? Tell me bud.
No they don't. But guess what? Batman also hurt Wonder Woman, and his punches are definitely not carrying more force than hits from high tiers.
Gallery
But I've yet to see an idiot who would say that "it's not a low end for Wonder Woman, she just has low physicalattacksfromBatman durability".
I can pick literally any low durability feat and extrapolate it into a new sort of "split durability". "Nah fam, Hulk being strangled by a snake is not PIS, he just has weak stranglingBySnakes durability". "What do you mean Dormammu being hurt by Cyclops is a low end? He just has low CyclopsBeams durability, you silly".
Here's the funny thing. You're gonna call (or at least think) that these examples are idiotic. And then you will continue arguing about split durability like a tool, not realizing that this is exactly the same thing. Low ends being blown out of proportions.
Actually, there are a lot of examples of an attack that's basically both a hybrid between blunt force and piercing. One of which is actually in OPM.
Gallery
Saitama punched a hole straight through DSK.
So first you imply that split durability and blunt durability are different things... But now there are attacks that are both BLUNT and PIERCING? Are you not dizzy? From all that spinning?
Or did you not realize that attack being considered both blunt and durable is exactly the thing I was arguing for? Which, you know, only reinforces the fact that they are one and the same thing and the whole "split durability" bullshit is just that: bullshit?
LMAO me?? Me??! This coming from you??
This coming from the guy who thinks Thor is consistently MFTL+?
This coming from the guy who thinks in-character Surfer solos the Toriko and GoH?
This coming from the guy who was the reason for the black hole/planet level Thing meme?
This coming from the guy who thinks BoG Goku is universal+?
I'm full of shit? It's like you don't seem to realize that calling you a laughingstock would actually be a compliment at this point. Your reputation on this site is commensurate to that of a severely autistic child who people keep around for entertainment. Everything that comes out of your mouth is pure sewage. I would think that you would have at least a shred of self-awareness not to call me out while in the midst of making your routinely terrible arguments, but it seems you don't even have that.
Well, someone had to tell you eventually. I'm not going to respond to you after this. If you want to get the last word in, be my guess. I can't afford wasting anymore time than I already have trying to educate a rock.
Leave it to HigherPower to get called out on being full of shit and then, instead of arguing his point like a good debater he claims to be, get so upset that he cries a river of ad hominems and things in no way related to argument at hand. Yeah, I still think that about every thing you listed and I will repeat it all again if needs to be. But you know what? It won't change the fact that you. Are full. Of shit. Right here, right now, in this very thread, arguing for shit that makes zero sense, contradicting yourself on the way, calling me words and running away like a bitch. My reputation might be a joke (but why would I care about what a bunch of people I don't know think about me behind my back anyway). But right now and right here, it's YOU who is a whiny bitch too upset to argue his points and resorting to first-grade insults when your arguments crumble. Live with that.
Imagine being such a terrible debater that when arguing against someone who you consider so terrible that they're 'the laughing stock of the vine', you still get destroyed and have to resort to ad hominem and comparing them to a severely autistic child, and then somehow can't comprehend why people are being swayed by his arguments more than yours. Pathetic.
@toratorn: I changed my mind on not responding. I'll go about this smoother this time.
Which is relevant exactly why?
It was an analogy for what you were doing.
>says Garou wins because Ben has no "piercing resistance feats"
I said he didn't have sufficient piercing durability, not that he had none.
>gets told there are feats
>asks for scans
>gets scans
>bails out
The only scan you posted that supported your argument was Ben surviving a swing for Terrax's axe, which I'm positive is an outlier now that I think about it (I'm pretty sure Terrax has one-shotted a planet before).
"Lolfiction" is a weak argument.
What? How? We're debating fictional characters, and these characters defy physics or contradict them all the time. Why can't split durability be one of those consistent deviations?
Or maybe the times when a guy who no sells nukes are simply... inconsistencies. You know, like all the other times when a guy who no sells nukes gets hurt by stuff not as potent as nukes? Unless there is an actual in-universe explanation for why bullets can hurt that guy.
Like I said at the beginning of the debate, enough low-ends and inconsistencies just makes a character plain inconsistent. Which is why I brought up Gladiator.
Basing your argument on arbitrary bullshit is no better than flipping the coin.
And saying every anti-feat from a character you like is either PIS or an inconsistent low-showing is more valid? Well, this doesn't surprise me considering your views on Thor's speed. Yes, every time Thor gets danced around by street levelers it's just a PIS low-showing, and only the times where he shows FTL combat speed are the valid feats. Even though there's way more of the former at this point.
All you're trying to say is that in fiction bullets, swords and other piercing crap works drastically different than in real life. Which makes way less sense than writers being dumbasses and failing physics.
This is the problem. No it doesn't. Do you seriously think it's more plausible that every single writer who's ever portrayed split durability failed to graduate high school, rather than purposely try to show that different types of attacks affect their characters differently?
That's what you said yourself:
So then you were fine with using real life logic, but now you're against it? You're spinning.
I was never fine with using real life logic for split durability... I said that from the get-go on post 13. Try to keep up with the conversation before implying I contradicted myself.
Not only that, if "piercing damage" is something entirely different from "blunt damage" in fiction anyway, as you claim, why would the big enough "blunt" durability feat make one immune to bullets and knife?
It's not that it would, it's just that arguing split durability at that point would be a spineless cop-out in attempts to have a fighting chance in what would otherwise be a flat-out mismatch. I mean honestly? If a character can no-sell a supernova, or an energy blast that can raze a solar system, (or a galaxy) arguing that they would die to a 9mm handgun because of no explicit piercing resistance is ridiculous and would just seem desperate to most people. And it's damn good indicator that the match isn't even fair to begin with.
The same issue arises with hax. If a multiversal reality warper has no TP resistance, by an extreme technicality, they could actually get clapped by Kaguya or Sasuke from Naruto if presented the chance. But what business do those two have fighting someone in that tier anyway? It's just something that's easy to be abused, so we have to take into consideration how the match would go down realistically.
You do realize that you contradicted yourself with that "stops mattering at high enough level" argument, do you?
...In what way?
No they are not. You're just taking low ends that would usually be handwaved away and blowing them out of proportion for the sake of "split durability". Why not go all the way then? Everytime Captain America hurts someone way out of his weight class, just say that these characters have "low CaptainAmericapunches durability". If you're being stupid, why not go stupid all the way?
If I'm being honest, it was this specific statement (in addition to those two fans of yours) that urged me to respond. How can you ask such an unabashedly stupid question? You're ignoring so many factors.
First of all, physical attacks are divided into three categories. Blunt force trauma, piercing/cutting, and energy/heat. I get that you're trying to be funny and snide with that "CaptainAmericadurability" line, but-
I'm honestly surprised you can't see the difference between WW getting hurt by bullets (despite surviving punches from characters that deal greater force than bullets) and a character stronger than Cap getting hurt by a blow from by him.
You know what? Forget Wonder Woman for a second. Wolverine is a better example.
Adamantium claws. He's pierced Thanos and Hulk with them. Are you telling me that the writers who wrote that are just "dumbasses who failed physics" rather than people who tried to show Adamantium living up to it's reputation of being virtually indestructible and able to cut through almost anything? Wouldn't you agree that, based on Hulk being vulnerable to penetration by Adamantium, other blades with better feats (or have been made from metals of similar strength) can pierce him too? Rather than that instance just being a "low showing"? I hope so, because it's not necessarily a low showing, just one that separates a piercing attack with sufficient force from a blunt force attack that delivers a greater amount of force per square inch that he can tank.
No they don't. But guess what? Batman also hurt Wonder Woman, and his punches are definitely not carrying more force than hits from high tiers.
But I've yet to see an idiot who would say that "it's not a low end for Wonder Woman, she just has low physicalattacksfromBatman durability".
Inconsistencies between attacks of the same nature (Batman's blunt force punches and a high tier's blunt force punches) can't be equated to "inconsistencies" between attacks of different nature (an attack that cuts and a punch from a high tier).
Here's the funny thing. You're gonna call (or at least think) that these examples are idiotic. And then you will continue arguing about split durability like a tool, not realizing that this is exactly the same thing. Low ends being blown out of proportions.
Those examples are beyond idiotic, because they're all the same type of attack. Not a different type of attack portrayed to affect a character differently.
So first you imply that split durability and blunt durability are different things... But now there are attacks that are both BLUNT and PIERCING? Are you not dizzy? From all that spinning?
No, genius. Follow the conversation. I've been saying that anything can be a piercing attack depending on it's size relative to the target. DSK was much much larger than Saitama. Saitama's punch was like a nail gun the way it hit him. It was a lot of force concentrated into an small, localized area. But it was still a solid punch.
Or did you not realize that attack being considered both blunt and durable is exactly the thing I was arguing for? Which, you know, only reinforces the fact that they are one and the same thing and the whole "split durability" bullshit is just that: bullshit?
They're not one and the same. Size matters.
Leave it to HigherPower to get called out on being full of shit and then, instead of arguing his point like a good debater he claims to be, get so upset that he cries a river of ad hominems and things in no way related to argument at hand. Yeah, I still think that about every thing you listed and I will repeat it all again if needs to be. But you know what? It won't change the fact that you. Are full. Of shit. Right here, right now, in this very thread, arguing for shit that makes zero sense, contradicting yourself on the way, calling me words and running away like a bitch. My reputation might be a joke (but why would I care about what a bunch of people I don't know think about me behind my back anyway). But right now and right here, it's YOU who is a whiny bitch too upset to argue his points and resorting to first-grade insults when your arguments crumble. Live with that.
I'm gonna be the bigger man and crush the shit flinging before it gets out of hand. That was admittedly uncalled for.
Also, I don't think I'm a good debater in any sense of the word. You're just wrong on split durability not existing in fiction.
@higherpower: I honestly wouldn't call it "shit flinging" the way you were doing it. There's a difference between calling someone names and flat out being derogatory.
Needless to say, You've kinda lost my respect pulling a stunt like that
@diarrhearegatta: Well whatever you want to call it, it's over now. Being condescending has only hurt me in the context of this thread, since I failed to actually counter the feats he posted.
It's embarrassing that it took comments from multiple people to stop, but I'm remorseful.
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