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#1 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17965 posts) - - Show Bio

Unlimited1

Gang boss - Bruno Buccellati (JJBA part 5)

Hitman - Jolyne Cujoh (JJBA part 6)

Captain - Giorno Giovanna (JJBA part 5)

Technician - Ermes Costello (JJBA part 6)

V.S.

Ashrym

Boss: Red Hood

Captain: Black Manta

Enforcer: Katana

Technician: Dark Beast

Rules:

  • No time manipulation
  • No unkillable characters
  • No reality warping
  • No instant killing ranged abilities (for instance you can't use the Death Note or use telepathy to kill)
  • No using teleportation on opponents
  • No offensive intangibility
  • No direct TK
  • No BFR, the battle will take place in the streets or in either warehouse.
  • No prep, gear or summons above the limits.
  • No making any of your characters invulnerable to all 3 common types of damage (blunt force, piercing and energy attacks) for more than 5 minutes at a time
  • No more than 3 clones.
  • You only have access to your character's standard gear or gear your characters are capable of creating given the environment.
  • Teamwork is a non-factor. this does not give you perfect teamwork.
  • This is out of character, you have to follow basic morals that your character may or may not have. But you can make plans your characters would not normally think of.
  • There are three win conditions: 1. You manage to capture or kill 3 of the enemy's made men. 2. You manage to kill the enemy mob boss. 3. You force the enemy gang to surrender or destroy their base completely.
  • You have to prove that your plan is better than your opponent's. So you can fully concede that your opponent's plan could work if you think yours could work faster and still win for example. Since planning is so important the option to PM your openers for me to post at the same time is available, to avoid metagaming.

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#2 Posted by Ashrym (2970 posts) - - Show Bio

@unlimited1: should have an opener tonight. free to post 1st if you want. ;)

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#3 Edited by Ashrym (2970 posts) - - Show Bio

Opener

Mob Boss -- Jason Todd, the Red Hood

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Jason Todd was the second Robin, but was brutally murdered by the Joker. After he was resurrected, Jason learned Batman did nothing to avenge his death. Anguished and seeking vengeance, he initially turned against his mentor and took on the Clown Prince's former identity: the Red Hood. Eventually coming back to the Bat-Family and assembling a team of anti-heroes known as the Outlaws (New 52 and Rebirth), Jason once again fights for justice...on his own terms.

Jason has an impressive list in his training. Originally a Robin he trained how to fight under Batman. After he was resurrected he trained with the League of Assassins, and later Talia sponsored additional training with top world class specialists in a variety of fields. That's how he learned to kill. Eventually, Talia introduced Jason to the All-Caste for mystical training and he was the first person in a thousand years to survive the cleansing.

Comic Vine page: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/jason-todd/4005-6849/

Jason Todd is also straight forward. He is an expert in multiple forms of martial arts and weapons, a master detective, and has access to tremendous wealth and technology. Additionally, Red Hood has peak human physicals that were enhanced beyond normal human limits since his resurrection.

Reputation

Unlike many other battles and tournaments, this is the mob and gang wars. That means rep matters. Jason Todd has definitely built a rep and he did it in the criminal underworld as a gang leader and crime boss. This battle is right up his specialty.

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Jason single handedly wiped out the crime families of Hong Kong in succession at least 5 times. That's the type of track record that leaves an impression. A very significant impression.

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Gang leaders and dictators crap their pants when he's in the country.

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He's been making enough off of taking out gangs that he uses and supplies safehouses all over the world. These are well stocked with weapons and ammunition.

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Jason was able to take over the Iceberg Lounge from Penguin when Penguin fled to a panic room on seeing him (Jason shot Oswald in the face on their last encounter), imprisoning Penguin and buying out the premises in his absence. He also convinced previous rivals Suzie Su and the Su Sisters to work for him.

Red Hood has a reputation in the criminal underworld as a rising crime lord and destroying gangs is one of his standard practices. This means he won't struggle taking down your gang. He does that on a regular basis, and your 50 random thugs will be unreliable due to the fear he inspires by his rep.

It's also not just the criminal organizations he takes over or destroys.

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He's among the elite assassins of the world including Bronze Tiger, Lady Shiva, and Cheshire.

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He also vies for the title of greatest assassin in the world.

It's not just rep...

Unlike a lot of characters, Jason earned his reputation.

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Red Hood was holding back against Batman. The opposite is true for Batman, who was unable to hold back and beat Jason.

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Jason excels at taking advantage of openings and mistakes, and he uses his banter to create those openings and mistakes, much like we see him doing against Shiva, Deathstroke, Batman, and more. Damian Wayne, the heir of the Demon's Head, was completely outclassed when Damian attacked Jason.

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Damian required magical healing for days after that beat down. Check out Teen Titans for those lasting injuries.

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The League of Assassins sent all their elites to capture an amnesiac Jason Todd, and he still took out Shiva and Cheshire together with an explosive. This all stems from Jason's ability to learn, understand, and replicate combat techniques almost immediately.

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The context on that image is that he learned basic martial arts and self defense from watching movies.

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Long before he became Robin and was just a street kid, he encountered Talia Al Gul and learned proper striking technique in striking, tagging a top tier martial artist.

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After watching Talia, Jason was able to replicate an arcane technique composed of multiple strikes and proper state of mind to strip an immortal of it's power and reduce it back to mortality. That's what led Talia to understanding Jason was destined for greatness, why she used the Lazarus Pit to rejuvenate him after he resurrected, training him beyond the League of Assassins, and introducing him to Ducra and the All Caste. That's when he became the first human in a thousand years to survive the cleansing.

That leads to more of the meats and potatoes of the character.

Skill and Speed

Jason's All-Caste training included training in speed because the speed of a typical Robin trained by Batman or an elite assassin with custom training by the best the Talia could buy was slow by All-Caste standards.

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This includes teachings regarding the fluidity of time and perception.

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This gets us into many, many feats of skill and speed between Batman, the League of Assassins, Talia funded, and All Caste training not available to anyone currently alive.

This is better than Joker's daughter

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Both shot, Jason was chained up point blank, and he easily evaded both. He also demonstrated that he could kill a man while chained up using a fountain pen and his foot. Boomerang and the other two guards were dropped by Jason's chest taser. More on that later.

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Fast enough to blitz those guards who had him surrounded at point blank range before any fired a single shot. Fast enough to destroy a room of mobsters without getting shot as shown when he was taking down crime family after crime family in Hong Kong. When Jason isn't holding back he transforms into a living weapon.

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That allows him blitzed people who no-sell bullet fire. When bullets are too slow Jason switches to melee speed (for him) as an upgrade.

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Jason blitzed her along with the Iron Rule when he gave into becoming a living weapon. She is clearly an extremely casual bullet timer at minimum and he switched from guns to H2H in his attack on her.

Jason was the only person on Earth capable of completing the All Caste's mission to protect the Earth from the nine Untitled.

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You might wonder how powerful the Untitled and Ducra are. Essence survived imprisonment by Trigon and no sold Starfire's starbolts.

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This culminated in Jason removing memory blocks he allowed the All Caste to implant and face Ras al Gul who had absorbed the combined power of the Untitled. Jason was facing a centuries old master of combat who has ascended to the power of a demigod as the culmination of his destiny for the All Caste.

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That's where the ability to "learn just like that" took him

Strength

Jason Todd has significantly higher strength than a peak human like Batman. At this point it's unclear why, but the feats speak for themselves.

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After holding his breath for a long time no-selling freezing water he could make a superhuman leap while breaking through the frozen surface of the water. He can impale a Monday with a heavy wooden post hard enough to lift the giant construct off the ground and later rip the beast apart with leverage working against him. He can casually embed Wingman's head in a concrete prison wall.

Jason Todd throws weight around pretty casually.

Durability

Stealth and Intelligence

Red Hood typically carries an assortment of devices including a grappling gun, high tech blades and knives, high tech pistols, surveillance equipment, miniature explosives, lock picks, a crowbar, and often an assortment of more exotic high tech alien weapons for special occasions. Of key note is his chest taser.

Taser

Of all his common equipment, the taser plate deserves a specific mention because of how effective it is. This is his high powered ace-in-the-hole move.

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The taser can bypass Batman's insulated armor, and not having a full charge can drop Artemis briefly. This is what a big charge looks like...

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It one shots a large room with many opponents.

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Another fodder, Anarky (which was bright enough to light up the sky), Captain Boomerang and 2 more fodders, another shot of the fodder in the large room re HIVE and a demonstration that he was selective in his targets as he left one to point his gun at, and Penguin's fodder while also selecting not to target Penguin. Notice the taser was used as an automated defense in the instance of Boomerang. It's been shown to have selective targeting, auto-defense, and manual over-ride.

He's also used the taser while simultaneously shooting....

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...and it's powerful enough to blast through the layer of ice Bizarro created after the Bow of Ra nuked his plane, he crashed, and Bizarro carpeted the area in freeze vision.

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Jason's All Caste training specifically provides mystical abilities that let him see and interact with beings or energy other people normally cannot see.

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This includes the manifestation of the all-blades.

All Blades

Jason is an exceptional choice for the Mob Boss because his got the skills and experience to do exactly what this tournament. He's also capable of filling any of the tournament roles exceptionally well, and being he boss allows him to do just that under the tournament rules.

Captain -- Black Manta

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Little is know about the of past Aquaman’s nemesis other than that Aquaman killed Black Manta’s father after the two of them inadvertently caused Aquaman’s father to die from a heart attack. Since this incident the two of them have been caught in a vicious cycle of vengeance has led to the deaths of many.

Manta has been described by Amanda Waller as the most efficient killing maching to ever go to Belle Reeve, and that's coming from someone who's gone through multiple Suicide Squads. He's a master of strategy who took over N.E.M.O, using those resources to manipulate his opponents against each other.

Comic Vine page: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/black-manta/4005-8345/

Leadership

It's his leadership skills for the 50 thugs that make him so useful. Below, we see he can rally a chaotic and disorganizd Suicide Squad as he takes leadership and they choose to follow. He also developed the infiltration strategy during Forever Evil in a team that included Lex Luthor, Batman, and Deathstroke to demonstrate the tier of strategy and tactics he's at.

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This started when he single handedly infiltrated and destroyed the US Atlantean Embassy.

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He quickly took over.

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He used those resources to manipulate a war between Atlantis and the US. During the course of that war, many died, the JL was unable to track him down, and he was proven to have the skills, resources, and technology to be a world class alpha level threat.

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I'll get more into applying that in my strategy. I'll post from his respect thread to save some time and give an idea what to expect from him. Note that Aquaman was clearly holding back.

Equipment

Skill

Strength

Durability

The battle with Kahina is extremely important.

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The reason it's important is because Kahina is a precog. We can see that she's avoiding attacks via premonition while facing him and he maneuvers her into a defeat regardless. It also demonstrates his explosive harpoons and the fact he's fireproof.

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Manta's suit uses a bio-electric forcefield for shielding. The above images show that Xebellian water blades can easily cut through tentacled sea monsters or metal lamp posts but he can no-sell that level of slashing.

Enforcer -- Katana

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After the death of her husband at the hands of the Yakuza, martial arts expert and samurai master Tatsu Yamashiro journeyed to America, where she became the vigilante hero known as Katana.

Trained in martial arts and swordsmanship from a young age, Katana possesses vast combat skills and tactical expertise. Katana wields the mystical Soultaker. The souls of her dead husband and countless others currently reside in her sword, and she is able to communicate with them (among other things).

Katana has been associated with the Outsiders, Birds of Prey, Justice League of America, and the Suicide Squad.

Comic Vine page: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/katana/4005-9547/

Katana is pretty straight forward. She is a master of the sword, martial arts, stealth, and tactics. Some quick RT links:

The interesting part of those images is that Katana has demonstrated superiority over her competitor as the world's greatest assassin as well as the predecessor holding that title. Katana is one of the few people to earn Shiva's respect.

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An injured Katana is capable of facing opponents like Shiva. Shiva chose to leave so that she because she wanted to face Katana when Katana is not fighting at a disadvantage.

Skill, Speed, and Stealth

These are Katana's key points and where the bulk of her information is listed.

Katana has the advantage of clearly demonstrating her ability beyond Black Canary in the new 52 Birds of Prey series.

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This first set demonstrates Canary's womance crush on Katana's skill. They also demonstrate that Katana could sense Canary was distracted the first time they ever sparred and coached her on it. Black Canary is often considered to be in the top 10 martial artists in DC comics. Two things are very important here that don't show: (1) This all takes place before Katana becomes worthy of her sword, and (2) Katana is not demonstrating the speeds she normally shows.

The second set shows Canary telling Katana to hold back when Katana's reply indicates she is. Canary is struggling more against the same opponents. The other 2 images show Canary knows shooting Katana is pointless and also speaks to Katana's character. Starling (Ev) has demonstrated she could knock Canary out with a single blow (it broke her hand because Ev knew Canary has tanked some pretty solid hits and she needed to exceed those).

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The context on that third set is important. All the Birds of Prey had just been poisoned by Ivy and were weak. They needed time for recovery that they did not have. The difference here is that Katana had also been in a fight in that weakened state, fallen from the roof of a multistory building in Gotham, was tasered and drugged, and broke her own arm in 2 places to escape the chains in which she was bound. The scans include evidence that the Dagger Clan fodder had better durability that typical ninjas as Canary didn't use enough force in her scream on them.

What is clearly demonstrated again is Katana, who is far more impacted than Canary going into the fight, was clearly doing better against the same opponents, who's speed was an issue for Canary and Batgirl. Those events took place over about a 22 hour period (there was a bomb counter) and before Katana's limited series in which she became worthy of the Soultaker. There was stated to be around 400 Dagger Clan ninjas.

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After that battle, it was stated the Dagger Clan are considered mostly brawlers by Sword Clan standards.

The below group demonstrates Katana moving from behind someone to intercept Green Arrow's point blank knocked and drawn arrow and cutting it in half. I also included a reminder of speed blitzing a master swordman in Black Lantern Maseo, avoiding chains that are fast enough to create whirl winds, casually overtaking a car doing 60 (this is in Japan so likely kmph), speed dashing past an opponent to cut him off from the weapons to where he was racing, catching an aircraft after it took off, various sword deflecting, and an opening into early Katana developing her danger sense while also blocking a lot of simultaneous attacks.

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I originally thought the GA arrow feat was pretty impressive but then she duplicated it save Waller from Flag. She caught the bullet with her sword.

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Bullets and projectiles are nothing to Katana. Even energy is something she deflects casually and redirects strategically.

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Even more impressive is the fact she repeated the GA and Flag feats by intercepting General Zod's fist.

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I included Katana blocking Zod's heat vision in this intentionally, as well as a demonstration in the final image of the condition she was in after he tossed her into a wall (ie barely conscious).

Katana is extremely consistent with her speed, stealth and skill. She is also a very very casual bullet timer.

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Stated to strike harder than those grenades.

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Easily deflects energy attacks even when here soul is transferred into Lady Eve's body.

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Yet another sneak attack out of nowhere (and signature move of cutting off hands), another example of running fast enough to keep up with traffic on a not busy street, speed blitzing 3 ninja's faster than they can react, slicing 2 more ninjas faster than they can react while simultaneously speed dashing up an almost vertical incline.

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Katana and Harley can wade through troops faster than Boomerang (ie a Flash villain and used to speed) can drop a single opponent. Boomerang is not the joke people normally consider him. He was a spy for Australian government before he turned to crime and fought the Flash. He's highly skilled and he's fast too.

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That's 3 images showing how he destroys a marketplace full of gun traffickers and one of him throwing a boomerang in synchronization with Deadshot to match hitting targets simultaneously.

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Those are 2 different fights where Katana's soul is in Lady Eve's body against Killer Croc. She has the ability to take on someone Batman needs special gear for and against whom Batman does struggle. She's hampered in a foreign body and does not have Soultaker available. She also grabbed Harley's mallet faster than Harley could react, and hit Croc hard enough to break the mallet.

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Croc is fast enough to blitz standard speed opponents and easily capable of handling multiple skilled opponents like Harley and Deadshot at once.

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Outracing an explosion from within an elevator shaft Katana is also in. Out of the elevator shaft and also out of the building.

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Out races another explosion from point blank she ignited with Soultaker. Starling and the pilot are seen narrowly escaping while Katana started behind them and they caught up to here already fighting.

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That image shows Katana will always win bringing here knife to a gunfight, and she also had the speed to save Shun from the backfire.

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Katana also has notable combat against Rustam. The 3rd image was another FTE movement out of nowhere to block. This doubles as a durability feats for Soultaker after Rustam resurfaced in WW.

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Rustam's scimitars can cut a rift to the sun and send WW fling back. He did not do this in combat vs Katana obviously but it does demonstrate Soultaker's durability as a powerful magical weapon.

And there is her level of stealth, of course.

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I included Katana sensing attacks without seeing earlier. She's developed that to the point Enchantress cannot magically cloak herself, for example. Meanwhile, Katana can disappear from the middle of her team without a trace to the point even Martian Manhunter is unable to detect her, or demonstrate how she can hide in plain sight. Even if someone manages to overcome this sixth sense, her sword has it's own senses and will warn her.

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Katana gets the drop on stealthy and perceptive characters pretty much as a given these days. She has many feats with a specific set applicable to this match.

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Those are cleaners. They wear invisibility stealth suits. The 1st, 3rd, and 4th image show Canary detect invisibility; she missed some as shown in the 2nd image. The fact she has feats to notice invisible characters is impressive.

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Starling has similar feats to Canary regarding the Cleaners and invisibility. Both failed to notice Katana at the same time until Katana chose to step out of the shadows.

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With context, the images show Katana sneaking up on Deadshot and Batman, who were sneaking out of Belle Reeve and no one could find them. Katana not only easily found both, she was clearly there undetected at least long enough to have been listening to their conversation about Deadshot's daughter and could have easily dropped both like she has in the past instead to prevent them from leaving. I included the reference to Deadshot's hand that she mentioned in the second image where she took her sword back from stealth and cut off Deadshot's hand before he could react (she has cut off soooooo many hands, lol). The other two are just another example where Katana and Harley were both able to sneak up on Enchantress and Batman.

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I wanted to add a few more examples of Katana's danger sense. The first image is the warning, the second the attack. The 3rd is her sword warning her and the 4th is a Cleaner in disguise whom the sword was detecting. Katana has two separate avenues of warning: (1) she specifically trained to sense attacks like a sixth sense as demonstrated -- this is like a knock off low grade spider sense, and (2) Soultaker will warn her of incoming attacks or threats based on it's own supernatural senses.

Between the two, it was impossible for a magically cloaked Enchantress to hide from Katana as shown above.

Strength and Durability

Katana was recently given some enhanced levels of strength feats.

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When her soul was entering Lady Eve's body, Lady Eve's body was capable of snapping leather restraints capable of restraining a gorilla as stated. It was then demonstrated that Katana is noticeably stronger than she was in Lady Eve's body. With the addition feat of snapping hand cuffs as shown against Croc earlier this places Katana capable of somehow drawing on strength greater than a gorilla.

Here is Katana with a point blank baby-nuke that required Geoforce to require medical attention from right beside her. That's heat, shrapnel, and impact.

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She's got things like being thrown against a wall with some cracking (such as vs Zod earlier) or falling from a rooftop (such as in Gotham earlier) but not a lot of durability feats. It's typical action hero stuff where she's beyond what a person would expect in the real world but not particularly impressive compared to some of the feats in a street level tournament. Fortunately, between here stealth, speed, agility, etc she rarely needs durability.

Soultaker

This is Katana's other dominant feature. Soultaker is a mystical weapon that imprisons the souls of those whom it's slain in a purgatory type afterlife called the Fukumaden.

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The master of the Soultaker is the master of the Fukumaden. Within the Fukumaden, Katana has shown low level abilities to manipulate traits of the dimension such as creating weapons and armor out of nothing. Those souls who dwell within are tortured souls who seek release. Katana generally commands those souls with some rare exceptions. This is where her husband Maseo currently dwells.

Prior to becoming worthy as the sword's master, Katana generally only received advice and warnings from those within the sword. After becoming worthy of Soultaker she has had more control of those within. Usually there is only one way in (death) and no way out other than the master releasing the souls. She must be outside the Fukumaden to do so. Lady Eve learned a magic ritual from one of the residents and their combined power was enough for Eve to escape (that's how Eve's soul entered Katana's body). There is also a portal that opens up every few centuries (that's how Katana's soul escaped to Eve's body). The only other known way for escape is to destroy the blade, releasing all the souls in the Fukumaden at once.

To be clear, Katana rarely does more than confine souls to the Fukumaden in death or converse with those souls. The options that have been shown over time would be normally restricted in a street level tournament and would be morals off or out of character. What she typically does is more than enough to demonstrate the power of the Soultaker.

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Even when it's killing ageless fire breathing mind controlling space kaiju who plan on taking over.

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Cutting power is the most frequent use of the blade. It cuts through steel like nothing, extremely durable opponents, etc. That and it's durability are the reason I don't need to bother with adamantium et al in perks using her.

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It doesn't matter if the target is solid or not.

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Soultaker can deflect, reflect, or repel energy.

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Warnings for attacks are and such are just the tip of the iceberg. Soultaker gives Katana all types of advice and knowledge she would not normally possess. It was the Soultaker who told her to accept Black Canary's invite to the Birds of Prey as well as leaving after her part in their fate was done. Soultaker told her to join the JLA and then later the Suicide Squad. She trusts the blade's advice and it does not steer her wrong.

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In those images she held back 20ft amped flaming zombie Waller and amped flaming zombie Harley Quinn long enough for Deadshot to show up, Boomerang to ask for help moving a large armored robotic body, get rid of the body through a dimensional doorway, and close it while trying not to get sucked in. She also got knocked over and dazed by amped Harley there but got back up if you want another durability feat.

Fortunately for me, Katana is out of character and that means she will be more willing to summon and utilize dead souls during this tournament. It's also fortunate that Katana is also familiar with dealing with Yakuza and Ninja clans and has taken out the Dagger Clan while also having taken over the Sword Clan.

Technician -- Dark Beast

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Dark Beast is the alternate-time line version of Hank McCoy, super-genius and one of the original X-men. He entered the 616 reality during the destruction of the Age of Apocalypse and started his cruel and depraved experiments all over again. He was thought to be dead but recently reappeared with his head re-attached to a new cybernetic body.

Comic Vine page: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/dark-beast/4005-3422/

From his respect thread.

Intelligence

I'll keep this short. This battle with the X-Men demonstrate his current physical abilities.

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He's a tank. Survived the destruction of his military grade vehicle, shields against energy blasts and psychic attacks, easily deals with Wolverine and Wolfsbane. They would have been forced to retreat if it were not for Magik's hax.

He's here to cybernetically attach built in weapons to my 50 thugs, possibly with some help from Red Hood and his study of alien technology.

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He's more than capable of cybernetically enhancing humans with a hidden lab in a warehouse. Dark Beast also requires no sleep or rest in his cybernetic body and can work around the clock for higher levels of production.

Strategy

Three members of my team already demonstrate capability and experience taking down cities of gangs, clans of ninjas, and even governments. This isn't a huge deal for us.

I'll send the rest of the strategy via PM after work tomorrow. This is mostly an introduction.

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#4 Posted by Ashrym (2970 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Edited by Unlimited1 (989 posts) - - Show Bio

Introduction: What is a stand?

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A stand is the manifestation of its owner's life energy that possesses powers and abilities far beyond that of an ordinary human. All four of my gang's "Made Men" are stand users, so it is crucial for this debate that the properties, abilities, and limitations of the Stand are made clear. There are two important properties of Stands that I want to clarify in this early stage of the debate. The first is that only stand users can perceive stands, a fact that was shown from the point Stands were introduced to the JJBA universe. Here is an example that should convince those who are skeptical that only Stand users can see Stands. In the following scans, a Stand is shown stealing a cop's pistol, but the cop cannot perceive it. There are dozens of similar examples within JJBA, but for now, this one should be satisfactory.

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The second property of a Stand that will likely be of great significance in this debate is that Stands cannot be harmed by natural means, only by other stands. This is noted multiple time throughout the series, for example, when a bug-shaped stand explains that bullets cannot harm Stands.

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This can also be read as meaning that Stands are simply too durable to be hurt by bullets, which is an incorrect interpretation. This page of summary taken directly from the source material proves it is so while providing a neat summary of the properties and characteristics shared by all stands. Not that the last part of the summary is outdated and irrelevant.

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The speed of Stands

Stands are not only completely imperceptible to most humans, but are also extremely fast. So much so that even a stand with a speed rating of C which is classified as average is capable of casually kicking around pistol shots.

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The stand of one of my gang members, Jolyne, can do just as well. With a speed rating of only B, her Stand, Stone Free, is an extremely consistent bullet timer.

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My other gang members have a speed rating of A, proving they are all at least causal bullet timers.

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The Gang's capabilities

Scouting

The first step in defeating the enemy force is, of course, finding it, so it is fortunate that two of my main men are uniquely equipped to do so. Jolyne can use her ability to unravel her body into strings and listen to distant conversations or scout ahead.

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Giorno, on the other hand, can sense the life energy of nearby living organisms, allowing him to detect the members of the opposing gang even if they are completely invisible.

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Mobility

Mobility is highly important in these kinds of fights, enabling a gang to get the drop on the opposing one or to escape dangerous situations without suffering casualties. Bruno, the leader of my gang has an ability that will vastly increase the mobility of my forces, the ability to create holes in any wall or barrier, allowing anyone to pass through them. He can close these holes afterward, living no sign of their prior existence behind.

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Offense

It's almost impossible to win a fight without some sort of powerful offense, and my gang members have among them not one, but two powerful offensive abilities. These abilities provide them with the means to harm almost any opponent, ignoring conventional durability. The first of these abilities is Bruno's Sticky Finger, which can zip his enemies apart, leaving them unable to fight.

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The second offensive ability in my gang's possession is Giorno's "Life Shot". When Giorno's Stand, "Gold Experience" strikes another sentient being, it infuses it with great amounts of life energy, which greatly increases the speed in which they prosses the world. The increase in speed is so large that their body cannot keep up with their consciousness, forcing them into an out of body experience and leaving them completely defenseless. This accelerated consciousness has another side effect: because the character hit with Life Shot perceives the world as if it is moving slowly, the length of any pain they suffer during the duration of the effect is multiplied many times over, making the pain from a simple punch so severe that they may even die fro the resulting shock.

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Defense

When fighting against a gang of skilled assassins, some sort of defensive ability can greatly increase a gang's odds of winning. Giorno, who leads my troops, has two powerful defensive stand abilities, the first one having a limited offensive use as well. When te stand "Gold Experience" strikes an inanimate object, it infuses it with life, turning it into a plant or animal, depending on Giorno's intentions. When an enemy damages a living creature created by Gold Experience, all that damage is reflected back to him. Giorno can fill the battlefield with transmuted creatures or hide behind them, increasing the chance of his opponents hitting one of them and accidentally killing themselves, unaware of Giorno's unique ability.

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Giorno's second defensive ability is the ability to heal injured allies by transmuting pieces of inanimate matter into healthy living organs and implanting them in their body, replacing damaged ones. Here, he heals one of his friends from dozens of shot wounds.

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Strategy

My strategy is very simple: After my four main men inform each other of their unique stand abilities they will blend into the group of thugs and seek out the enemy base as a group, using my team's scouting abilities. If they encounter enemies, any one of my main men, especially those with offensive abilities (Bruno and Giorno) can take them out with their stands. The enemy will have no way of identifying the source of these stands because as was previously stated, only stand users can see stands and my main men will fight amidst a group of clueless thugs. To make things tougher for the opposing gang, Giorno will fill the battlefield with small transmuted organisms that will reflect any damage done to them back at the attacker. He will make some of this organism out of pieces of his and his gang's bodies, so they will follow them around (Organisms made out of a person's body follow that person). If the enemy attacks with large AOE attacks, Giorno will create organisms to block them as well.

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I will elaborate on this strategy in future posts, describing how my team will react to specific scenarios as they pop up. My main men are all powerful, intelligent fighters and I am confident in their ability to take this fight without much trouble.

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#6 Posted by Unlimited1 (989 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by Ashrym (2970 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17965 posts) - - Show Bio

@ashrym:

Strategy

My opening strategy is straight forward. Dark Beast sets up the warehouse surveillance equipment and sleep gas controls into the environment as a failsafe.

Manta and Jason can ignore gas attacks.

Dark Beast is upgrading cybernetic blasters and subdermal shielding in my 50 goons. He also plants remote detonation explosives in each without letting them know.

Red Hood cases out Unlimited1's warehouse to identify schedules and shipments, and identify enemy plans. Katana goes with him and will use Soultaker to question corpses if necessary.

Black Manta sends some thugs out disguised in Unlimited1's gang colors to commit crimes with evidence pointing back to Unlimited1's team in order to increase police pressure and use up the jojo team's time and resources to deal with the extra police pressure.

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#9 Posted by Ashrym (2970 posts) - - Show Bio

@unlimited1:

Regarding Stands

I will start with the comments on stands and get that out of the way.

...only stand users can perceive stands...

So Silver Surfer with his cosmic awareness cannot sense a stand? Mephisto? The Spectre? Dr. Fate? How about Beyonders or TOAA? Abstracts? Obvious no limits fallacy.

A stand is the manifestation of its owner's life energy...

Any character capable of sensing such energies will perceive stands. Your assertion is analogous to Wonder Woman soloing the MCU outside of Asgardians because Ares stated that only a god can kill a god. The individuals in JoJoverse might think it's true but it's clearly NLF.

I demonstrated in my opener that Jason Todd can sense and interact with spiritual beings and energy because of his All Caste training and all swords. I demonstrated Katana can react to attacks she cannot see and that Soultaker can affect intangible spirit energy, and that Soultaker can simply warn her of the stands attacking as well. I don't see any reason a scientific device could be keyed to detecting the energy signatures of the stands until you prove otherwise as well. You aren't winning with a NLF argument.

The second property of a Stand that will likely be of great significance in this debate is that Stands cannot be harmed by natural means, only by other stands.

You were right when you stated that your example demonstrated a bullet cannot hurt a stand. Claiming a stand cannot be hurt by anything but a stand is just another NLF argument. The statements supporting that argument only prove that is what is believed because they have not seen or are not aware of anything else that would hurt a stand. The all swords or Soultaker have the feats and demonstrations against related life force / spirit energy targets to clearly demonstrate they would work on a stand. And before you make some nonsense argument about stands being unique.... well, if it quacks like a duck, as they say.

My other gang members have a speed rating of A, proving they are all at least causal bullet timers.

Feats would have been a better way to prove it. Regardless, I gave feats showing Red Hood blitzing someone beyond casual bullet timing, Katana making a bullet timer like Boomerang look slow, Katana constantly no-selling bullet time with much better feats than just dodging, and Katana consistently reacting to and timing energy attacks. I doesn't do your stands any good to be bullet timers against characters who go beyond bullet-timing and use swords.

It also doesn't help if the attacks are AoE's like bombs, grenades, gas attacks, etc. The taser feats I gave for Red Hood would end any of your team, for example. It's clear stands cannot simply handwavesave your team members.

Regarding the Gang's Capabilities

Scouting

The first step in defeating the enemy force is, of course, finding it, so it is fortunate that two of my main men are uniquely equipped to do so. Jolyne can use her ability to unravel her body into strings and listen to distant conversations or scout ahead.

And what limits are there to such an ability? How long can she do it? How often? How many locations at once? How many different conversations can she listen to and once? How much of her concentration does it take? What range does hse have? What languages does she understand? Again, it looks like you are applying no limits to an ability.

It's also missing key communication dependent details like hand gestures, maps and/or checklists people might be using, or plans that aren't communicated such as Dark Beast implanting bombs in my thugs.

It actually just looks like she remote listens ahead while sneaking around, which would matter given the level of stealth I've demonstrated.

Giorno, on the other hand, can sense the life energy of nearby living organisms, allowing him to detect the members of the opposing gang even if they are completely invisible.

That gets back to limits. What is the range? How does it work, specifically? etc. If it's a psychic sense, Red Hood resists it. Black Manta's bioelectric forcefield shown earlier protecting him from Mera's water hax would similarly protect him.

The close range mentioned would make it too late to do anything about my stealthy characters.

Mobility

Mobility is highly important in these kinds of fights, enabling a gang to get the drop on the opposing one or to escape dangerous situations without suffering casualties.

Creating doors where none existed doesn't significantly increase mobility in combat or prevent casualties. Aside from the fact you seem to be guessing where you need to go, the surveillance tech available to Dark Beast would pick them up with or without the zipper door, Manta's surveillance tech, Red Hood's surveillance tech, Katana's Soultaker would sense anyone on your team. What's more likely is attempting to sneak into my warehouse gets your team gas attacked by the defenses Dark Beast put in and ends your campaign against my gang quickly

Offense

These abilities provide them with the means to harm almost any opponent, ignoring conventional durability. The first of these abilities is Bruno's Sticky Finger, which can zip his enemies apart, leaving them unable to fight.

So what is the best durability it's bypassed? Another NLF argument. What would really happen, because of the close range required, is Katana cuts off Bruno's hand when he tries that crap and adds him to the long list of opponents who's hands she's cut off. If he does it to someone else she just moves to intervene like we saw with Green Arrow's arrow, Rick Flag's bullet, or Zod's fist. It's well within her demonstrated speeds to intercept at FTE speeds and her demonstrated ability to cut through military grade steel like butter. Unless you can demonstrate Bruno's durability and speed beyond Katana with Soultaker he's looking for prosthetics after trying this. Dark Beast is also a cybernetic metamorph who simply blocks and electrocutes Bruno like he did to Wolverine (who is faster, more durable, and also bypasses conventional durability) as demonstrated above.

Hell, look back at my team. Bruno getting that close to any of them is a literal death sentence.

The second offensive ability in my gang's possession is Giorno's "Life Shot". When Giorno's Stand, "Gold Experience" strikes another sentient being, it infuses it with great amounts of life energy, which greatly increases the speed in which they prosses the world. The increase in speed is so large that their body cannot keep up with their consciousness, forcing them into an out of body experience and leaving them completely defenseless. This accelerated consciousness has another side effect: because the character hit with Life Shot perceives the world as if it is moving slowly, the length of any pain they suffer during the duration of the effect is multiplied many times over, making the pain from a simple punch so severe that they may even die fro the resulting shock.

This was a bit more interesting, but also ultimately a failure. It looks like a close range ability, which is generally a drawback. I would also get back to checking limitations. Success rate? Range? Does it prevent the stand from taking other actions? How long does it take to be effective? etc. It's a recurrent issue where you assume no limitations on the abilities you present. Having said that...

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I demonstrated in my opener that Red Hood is trained to see time fluidly Accelerating the perceptions of someone to force him or her to perceive faster when that's not how he or she perceives time in the first place cannot possibly be effective. The above image is the Chamber of All. It's a nexus point to all time and space in the monastery where Red Hood had his All Caste training. He can easily navigate it by relaxing and letting it go where it will. He clearly would not be overwhelmed by the attack on his senses. Plus, he's got psychic defenses as pointed out earlier if it's a psychic attack.

Black Manta's bioelectric seal would prevent the energy from getting through. You need to demonstrate this attack can get through a complete seal that blocks energy and matter on a subatomic scale.

Katana's sword deflects energy. This is no different than when it protected her from the other-dimensional energy virus I presented above.

Dark Beast has psychic and energy shields as shown above. He's also already invented tech that protects individuals from getting overwhelmed processing the inside of a celestial. Given that there are no instant death ranged attacks permissible and he has anti-tech for such an attack it seems like a miserable failed attempt. The tech is linked in my opener demonstrating his intellect.

Attacks that overwhelm the senses simply don't work on everyone, and my made men are all safe enough.

Defense

Giorno, who leads my troops, has two powerful defensive stand abilities, the first one having a limited offensive use as well. When te stand "Gold Experience" strikes an inanimate object, it infuses it with life, turning it into a plant or animal, depending on Giorno's intentions. When an enemy damages a living creature created by Gold Experience, all that damage is reflected back to him.

What are the limits of the damage that can be reflected? At what range? What types of damage? This is looking like no limits again. I have a hard time believing that if Black Manta plants bombs all over the JoJo warehouse and leaves the area to detonate them remotely that he would take such damage given the range and fact that he's not doing the damage directly. Plus, what kind of durability do these objects actually have? Most of my team has enhanced durability so it doesn't mean much if Manta flame blasts them with an exploding harpoon when he's been shown to be fireproof.

Also, Soultaker would simply would simply detect them, warn Katana, and she would tell Red Hood because she's always with him as his enforcer.

The thugs don't matter if they take more damage. Dark Beast turned them into suicide bombers without telling them. So they become more dead if they get used that way? I think my psychotic scientist outmaneuvers your plans.

Giorno's second defensive ability is the ability to heal injured allies by transmuting pieces of inanimate matter into healthy living organs and implanting them in their body, replacing damaged ones. Here, he heals one of his friends from dozens of shot wounds.

He would have to heal them from dead, and if Katana killed the individual then their soul is already captured and imprisoned in the Fukumaden, and under her control. Being out of character, however, means Katana can place souls in dead bodies to bring them back to life (or living beings if the rules did not prohibit similar offensive attacks). Watching Giorno try to heal a someone who's soul is gone opens up placing someone like Maseo in the newly healed body for a real surprise for your team.

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Don't forget, Maseo is a master swordsman as well and the world's preeminent assassin before Katana took up Soultaker. That is Maseo possessing the body. He maintains her life and keeps her working for Katana. Katana has thousands of souls to take up the fallen if she needs.

Regarding your Strategy

My strategy is very simple: After my four main men inform each other of their unique stand abilities they will blend into the group of thugs and seek out the enemy base as a group, using my team's scouting abilities.

Well, your team never demonstrated the ability to blend in and not be spotted so far, but I demonstrated Soultaker would identify Cleaners holographically disguised to blend in and show them to Katana. Her feats easily trump your featless attempt and she has no trouble identifying your team. As pointed out in my strategy that I had PM'd, Katana and Red Hood were watching your warehouse and see you leave. The reverse is not true. Both are masters of disguise and simply blend into the street people. I showed both in disguise in my opener.

They watch you go and radio a warning after you are out of sight. Then Jason plants explosives in what seems to be a defenseless warehouse given the information available, he blows it up, and we win via win condition 3.

3. You force the enemy gang to surrender or destroy their base completely.

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Like every other form of killing, Red Hood is a master of demolitions and explosives. He trained with the best Talia al Ghul had and beyond the League of Assassins. His accelerated learning clearly showing.

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To complete my victory, however.....

If they encounter enemies, any one of my main men, especially those with offensive abilities (Bruno and Giorno) can take them out with their stands.

They won't encounter enemies. I had eyes on your departure and mentioned. You are walking into an ambush.

The enemy will have no way of identifying the source of these stands because as was previously stated, only stand users can see stands and my main men will fight amidst a group of clueless thugs.

There is a bit of validity here. My boss and enforcer definitely have options to identify and interact with stands. The characters left at my warehouse only see a group of attackers, although they would notice who is giving orders to whom and if they kill everyone it doesn't matter who they identify. Watching someone create zippers in walls seems like a dead give away.

To make things tougher for the opposing gang, Giorno will fill the battlefield with small transmuted organisms that will reflect any damage done to them back at the attacker. He will make some of this organism out of pieces of his and his gang's bodies, so they will follow them around (Organisms made out of a person's body follow that person).

I'm curious why you think your own thugs wouldn't accidentally hit such organisms in the crossfire and take themselves out through friendly fire.

If the enemy attacks with large AOE attacks, Giorno will create organisms to block them as well.

Anything to identify how fast these can be created? What size? Durability? Why wouldn't it be noticeable and give him away as an important individual? How exactly does that stop flames and backdrafts from going around the organisms?

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He isolated a precog and overcame her combat level precog abilities. He's immune to his own fire attacks in his sealed power suit. The flames will engulf your made men whether they have cover or not as they fill the area. He's been capable of sneaking up on Aquaman, who also has life sensing abilities and super hearing capable of hearing the faint heart beat of a dying man through the hull of a sub. Your scouting is going to fail against the stealth abilities in his suit.

Here he is having stealth attacked Aquaman and Deathstroke (who is way beyond your characters too). He one shot Deathstroke without bothering with his higher tech.

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His high tech envirosuit has great stealth and disguise characteristics.

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The tech he has available and built in easily puts him into the mid-tier. This is a high street low mid-tier tourney and he's pushing the upper end of that range, much like Dark Beast.

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Examples of super hearing.

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Life sense works off ambient life noise using TP. He's been shown to be connected to all living things via the life force.

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Aquaman's connection to the life force and all living things goes beyond telepathy, as noted in the images above. Red Hood steaths Supergirl. Katana stealths Martian Manhunter. Black Manta stealths Aquaman. My team is way beyond listening over strings and short range life detection when it comes to stealth.

It's unlikely your team makes it through Manta and my thugs. They are wandering around looking for the right place to go via zippers while my home team has surveillance equipment to track where they are heading. Your scouting abilities will find my thugs but not Manta. The bad news for you is that Manta and Dark Beast have no regard for the lives of my thugs. Henchman are replaceable or mere experiments to them. It wouldn't bother Dark Beast to remote detonate any that already have bomb implants to blow your team away. Manta has he durability to tank those explosions. It wouldn't bother Manta to burn thugs launching an exploding harpoon into the fray and the flames will go around your organism barriers or stands.

It doesn't matter if Manta or Beast can see your stands. They target your people and the stands end with them regardless.

And finally, if that assault somehow manages to fail, Dark Beast floods the place with gas. Manta's suit protects him and everyone else drops. Then Manta or Beast still kill your team.

That gives me victory by conditions 1 and/or 2.

1. You manage to capture or kill 3 of the enemy's made men.

2. You manage to kill the enemy mob boss.

Your approach walks right into my actions to give me all three victory conditions. This is as it should be, because most of my team has vast experience taking down criminal or powerful organizations.

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#10 Edited by Unlimited1 (989 posts) - - Show Bio

Counters: The stands make a stand

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Claims I have no objection to

So Silver Surfer with his cosmic awareness cannot sense a stand? Mephisto? The Spectre? Dr. Fate? How about Beyonders or TOAA? Abstracts? Obvious no limits fallacy.

Any character that is able to sense spirits and souls which are invisible to regular humans can probably see stands. Only two members of your team, Katana and Jason Tod answer that criteria.

The all swords or Soultaker have the feats and demonstrations against related life force/spirit energy targets to clearly demonstrate they would work on a stand. And before you make some nonsense argument about stands being unique.... well, if it quacks like a duck, as they say.

I agree that the Soultaker can hurt stands. But you still haven't shown any feats of the All-Blade harming invisible and intangible beings, so it's capability to harm stands remains in question.

The Speed Argument

Although you claimed that your characters can keep up with stands, none of your characters have speed feats even approaching the level of combat speed of the slowest stand on my team, based on what you posted up to this point of course. In essence, combat speed is the speed in which a character fights, while reaction speed is the speed at which a character can react to an event or action. Reaction speed usually only grants a short movement upon reaction, whereas several movements at the same speed switch it to combat speed. The feat below should help you and the readers understand the level of combat speed stands possess.

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As you can clearly see, Jolyne's stand "Stone Free" (which has a rank of B in speed) was able to throw a ball and pull it back 1000 times before the stand Mirashon removed her inner organs. If we assume that took 3 seconds, this means Stone free can throw a ball and pull it back, an action very similar to punching more than 300 times per second, which is far beyond anything any of your characters have demonstrated. In case you don't believe Stone Free actually threw the ball 1000 times and not just an arbitrarily large number of times, I would like to reassure you that isn't the case. Mirashon is a stand that ensures bets are paid, even if he has to take organs from one of the players to pay what they owe. After Jolyne threw the ball, Mirashon returned the money and the organs he had taken, just like he promised which means Jolyne has won the bet and actually threw the ball 1000 times.

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With such a huge gap between the combat speed of your characters and the combat speed of the stands, the stands will easily overwhelm them in hand to hand combat with a flurry of unstoppable blows. For an illustration depicting a similar scenario, see below.

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Even when comparing reaction speed, my stands are still far superior. From among the character on your team, only Katana was clearly shown reacting to bullets after they were fired. Katana is undoubtedly fast, but she is significantly slower than Jolyne, who can casually manifest her stand and have it deflect 11 pistol shots that were only a few centimeters from her face. The rest of your characters aren't even shown to be bullet timers, forcing you to rely on faulty scaling to prove they are in the same ballpark of speed as the stands.

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My team's capabilities

And what limits are there to such an ability? How long can she do it? How often? How many locations at once? How many different conversations can she listen to and once? How much of her concentration does it take? What range does hse have? What languages does she understand? Again, it looks like you are applying no limits to an ability.

What? I never claimed this ability has no limits, it's just a simple ability that will allow Jolyne to easily eavesdrop on conversations between your gang members from some distance away.

It actually just looks like she remote listens ahead while sneaking around, which would matter given the level of stealth I've demonstrated.

It will work just fine on your thugs, who aren't masters of stealth as far as I am aware.

That gets back to limits. What is the range? How does it work, specifically? etc. If it's a psychic sense, Red Hood resists it. Black Manta's bioelectric forcefield shown earlier protecting him from Mera's water hax would similarly protect him.

Gold Experience's ability to sense the life energy of others isn't telepathy, its extrasensory perception, similar to the way many anime characters can sense Ki. This implies that Red Hood can't resist it and Black Manta's bioelectric field will be useless against it. Its range was shown to be at least the size of an entire plain in the feat I previously posted because Giorno was able to tell there was no living organism beside them on that plain. This ability makes any of your team's attempts at stealth useless.

So what is the best durability it's bypassed? Another NLF argument.

The ability creates tears in the fabric of space, it can literally zip apart any corporeal object.

What would really happen, because of the close range required, is Katana cuts off Bruno's hand when he tries that and adds him to the long list of opponents who's hands she's cut off.

As I already explained in "The speed argument" section, Katana is barely a B in reaction speed by JJBA standards and not even a C in combat speed, Sticky finger has an A in speed. It will blitz and one shot her in close combat.

Dark Beast is also a cybernetic metamorph who simply blocks and electrocutes Bruno like he did to Wolverine (who is faster, more durable, and also bypasses conventional durability) as demonstrated above.

Wolverine is multiple tiers of speed below Bruno and his claws are simply very sharp spikes, they don't create tears in the fabric of space. Unless Dark Beast can resist abilities that create such tears, Bruno will blitz and one shot him too if it comes to close combat.

Attacks that overwhelm the senses simply don't work on everyone, and my made men are all safe enough.

You convinced me this attack won't be very effective.

What are the limits of the damage that can be reflected?

It can reflect lethal damage, as I have already shown.

At what range?

Abilities of stands have no range limits unless it is shown otherwise, many of them can affect the entire universe.

What types of damage?

That's a weird question, all physical damage at least.

Plus, what kind of durability do these objects actually have? Most of my team has enhanced durability so it doesn't mean much if Manta flame blasts them with an exploding harpoon when he's been shown to be fireproof.

The ability reflects the damage, not the attack. For example, when a kid swapped a fly created by the ability away, the damage that was reflected back to him was enough to knock him out cold. Obviously, a 13-year-old doesn't swap flies with that kind of force, but the damage that would have been dealt to the fly would have probably knocked it out. So durability is kind of irrelevant against this ability.

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Also, Soultaker would simply detect them, warn Katana, and she would tell Red Hood because she's always with him as his enforcer.

Does Soultaker have feats of doing something similar to detecting transmuted beings created by life energy and instantly understanding a very specific ability they have and no stand user was ever able to detect? If not, your claim is baseless and your team will probably fall prey to this ability without ever realizing what hit them.

He would have to heal them from dead

He can't do that and he will not need to because the moment Katana comes into striking range, Bruno will zip her apart. They won't let her hurt any of the thugs.

Strategy

Well, your team never demonstrated the ability to blend in and not be spotted so far, but I demonstrated Soultaker would identify Cleaners holographically disguised to blend in and show them to Katana. Her feats easily trump your featless attempt and she has no trouble identifying your team.

When I said my main men would blend in I meant they would replace their weird clothes with something more appropriate and behave like normal human beings. Soultaker will be useless against this magnificent strategy.

As pointed out in my strategy that I had PM'd, Katana and Red Hood were watching your warehouse and see you leave. The reverse is not true. Both are masters of disguise and simply blend into the street people. I showed both in disguise in my opener.

You can't place your character at my base from the beginning, you don't even know where my base is at the start of the fight. In addition to that, are these explosives even standard gear?

They watch you go and radio a warning after you are out of sight. Then Jason plants explosives in what seems to be a defenseless warehouse given the information available, he blows it up, and we win via win condition 3.

First, they have to find my base which is just a normal building with no unique characteristics. They have no way to do so.

They won't encounter enemies. I had eyes on your departure and mentioned. You are walking into an ambush.

You don't, you start at your base without the faintest Idea of my whereabouts.

Watching someone create zippers in walls seems like a dead give away.

The stand is the one creating the zipper, not Bruno.

I'm curious why you think your own thugs wouldn't accidentally hit such organisms in the crossfire and take themselves out through friendly fire.

Why would they fire at random organisms on their side of the battlefield?

Anything to identify how fast these can be created? What size?

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Durability?

Do you understand they reflect any and all damage?

Why wouldn't it be noticeable and give him away as an important individual?

The stand is doing this, not him.

How exactly does that stop flames and backdrafts from going around the organisms?

An indestructible tree is a pretty good defense and my team is still free to dodge and use their stands to block.

He's immune to his own fire attacks in his sealed power suit. The flames will engulf your made men whether they have cover or not as they fill the area.

My team has at least four ways to deal with flamethrowers or explosions or whatever it is you are referring to (it's not very clear).

  1. Taking Manta down first with a preemptive strike, taking advantage of their superior speed and the fact Manta can't see stands.
  2. Blocking the fire with an indestructible tree that will reflect the damage and kill Manta instantly.
  3. Escaping using a zipper.
  4. Blocking with their stands (they are fast enough to react to explosions).

He's been capable of sneaking up on Aquaman, who also has life sensing abilities and super hearing capable of hearing the faint heartbeat of a dying man through the hull of a sub.

Manta isn't sneaking up on Aquaman in the scan you posted, he's just talking to him. You also didn't post any feats of Manta using his suit to become invisible or of Aquaman using his telepathy to detect hidden enemies (unless I missed something). You seem to be vastly overrating Manta's stealth capabilities.

Your scouting is going to fail against the stealth abilities in his suit.

Giorno's life detection is going to find him without much trouble.

Here he is having stealth attacked Aquaman and Deathstroke (who is way beyond your characters too). He one shot Deathstroke without bothering with his higher tech.

My characters would fodderize Deathstroke.

Aquaman's connection to the life force and all living things goes beyond telepathy, as noted in the images above. Red Hood steaths Supergirl. Katana stealths Martian Manhunter. Black Manta stealths Aquaman. My team is way beyond listening over strings and short range life detection when it comes to stealth.

Your team can't even hide in an open field, don't hype them too much. The only things those feats prove is that they make no sound, which won't help them that much when there are 108 eyes and a stand that can sense life energy looking for them.

And finally, if that assault somehow manages to fail, Dark Beast floods the place with gas. Manta's suit protects him and everyone else drops. Then Manta or Beast still kill your team.

First, you need to prove Dark Beast even uses gas, because you didn't post any feats of him doing so. Then you need to prove that gas is invisible because if it's not it can be easily avoided. If you can prove that, the fact still remains that my team isn't going to throw caution to the wind and just enter the enemy base as a group without any safety measures. They will first interrogate Manta after they Zip him apart to find out what they can about your defenses then they will send a small group of thugs equipped with phones and transmuted organisms to scout the place. Catching my main men in a trap won't be easy.

Dark Beast is upgrading cybernetic blasters and subdermal shielding in my 50 goons. He also plants remote detonation explosives in each without letting them know.

I have a few problems with that.

  1. That's going to take a lot of time, time you don't have.
  2. How is Black beast going to hide the bombs from the goons?
  3. The bombs are going to trigger when the thugs are shot, making them useless.
  4. Black Beast isn't going to able to do any of this with standard gear, meaning the things he carries on his body regularly.
  5. How is black beast going to forcibly implant stuff in all the goons? Are you going to fight your own goons before fighting my team?
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#11 Posted by Unlimited1 (989 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by Ashrym (2970 posts) - - Show Bio

@unlimited1:Been ill, sry. Should be up tomorrow or SAT.

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#13 Posted by Ashrym (2970 posts) - - Show Bio

Rebuttals

Interesting responses in a few cases.

I agree that the Soultaker can hurt stands. But you still haven't shown any feats of the All-Blade harming invisible and intangible beings, so it's capability to harm stands remains in question.

Invisibility doesn't stop damage regardless. Did you actually demonstrate intangibility? Your opener started as durability...

This can also be read as meaning that Stands are simply too durable to be hurt by bullets...

And your demonstration with Stone Free also gave the impression of durability over intangibility because the bullets were being blocked. Either way...

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Seems like a bait and switch argument if it's presented as immunity to attacks and suddenly gets represented as intangibility to attacks. Which would be useless in the case of stands protecting the stand users from attacks.

The Speed Argument

I am not sure you understand some of the feats I presented. We'll get to them, but first...

If we assume that took 3 seconds, this means Stone free can throw a ball and pull it back, an action very similar to punching more than 300 times per second

If we assume it took 1 second, that's even faster. Or if we assume that took 3 minutes it's a lot slower. Made up numbers are still made up numbers. A person cannot simply make an arbitrary assumption to try and prove speed.

forcing you to rely on faulty scaling to prove they are in the same ballpark of speed as the stands

How did you demonstrate faulty scaling to make such a claim?

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Jason attacked by H2H when bullet were far too slow, showing that he's far faster than his own bullets against the same opponent in the same encounter. Scaling against his own bullets hardly seems faulty. I also clearly pointed how he does this because he's trained to see time differently than others. That gets into "time is an illusion" discussions when your team is clearly stuck with linear perceptions of time based on your arguments so far.

I haven't given any scaling for speed for Manta or Dark Beast. They are both durability tanks who rely on skill, planning, technology, and intellect. Claiming the rest of my characters rely on scaling is a strawman.

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Both shot while Jason was chained up point blank, and he easily evaded both. While we don't see the actual bullets, the circumstances preclude any other conclusion. Really, though, the sheer number of people he destroys before any of them can fire is next level. Rooms of mafia, entire swat teams, being surrounded by armed guards who have already have weapons drawn. That's Wolverine level attack speed. Don't kid yourself.

who can casually manifest her stand and have it deflect 11 pistol shots that were only a few centimeters from her face

Are you seriously trying to claim she waited until the pistol shots were only a few cm away before manifesting her stand? Because that makes zero sense. That demonstrates how far the pistol shots traveled before her reactions caught up. Red Hood's point blank whiled chained down is much more impressive. Pistols fire slower rounds than high caliber such as Katana demonstrated time and again.

I also find it ironic you are making claims of faulty scaling for my team when you provided feats with a stand followed by claiming better for others based on an unquantified scaling system instead of providing feats.

As for Katana, her bullet timing is flawless. She blocks and reflects energy attacks better than typical bullet timers bullet time. I gave blitzing examples, including running up a vertical surface while blitzing. I showed such control she redirected attacks after they were fired after she killed soldiers also after those shots were fired. I showed her outracing explosions and saving Shun from a backfire after Shun pulled the trigger before the shell exploded.

The little bullet timing you've shown isn't close to Katana's level. Katana's energy attack timing > bullet timing. GG.

Team Capabilities

Several points to go over.

What? I never claimed this ability has no limits, it's just a simple ability that will allow Jolyne to easily eavesdrop on conversations between your gang members from some distance away.

So what are the limits? The NLF seems implied because you present it as an autosuccess regardless of counters. You could have answered my questions but instead seem to be avoiding them.

It will work just fine on your thugs, who aren't masters of stealth as far as I am aware.

To what end? It's not clear what you were (or thought you were) accomplishing with the ability.

Gold Experience's ability to sense the life energy of others isn't telepathy, its extrasensory perception, similar to the way many anime characters can sense Ki. This implies that Red Hood can't resist it and Black Manta's bioelectric field will be useless against it. Its range was shown to be at least the size of an entire plain in the feat I previously posted because Giorno was able to tell there was no living organism beside them on that plain. This ability makes any of your team's attempts at stealth useless.

Because it's another autosuccess ability without limits? Yeah, right...smh. ESP vs TP is arguing semantics. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it likely a duck. Red Hood's training and Black Manta's bioelectric field are perfectly reasonable forms of resistance.

The range still requires they be in range, meaning stealth from range is possible as well as being disguised in plain sight because there didn't seem to be much in the way of distinction.

Finally, he appeared to need to actively use the ability, similar to how Aquaman uses his own life sense ability. That means it wouldn't be constant.

How big was the plane? Quantifiable range would be nice. ;-)

The ability creates tears in the fabric of space, it can literally zip apart any corporeal object.

So definitely an NLF argument? I would argue Darkseid and Wonder Woman have both grabbed the edges of tears into dimensions and hold them closed counter it. Flash's ability to vibrate at the same frequency of the tear would stop it. A corresponding opposite energy would prevent it.

And specifically shown in my feats already, Rustam could cut a rift to the sun but not cut Soultaker. I seriously doubt it could zip Soultaker based on that feat. Clearly there would be some kind of limitations, even if you don't realize it.

As I already explained in "The speed argument" section, Katana is barely a B in reaction speed by JJBA standards and not even a C in combat speed, Sticky finger has an A in speed. It will blitz and one shot her in close combat.

Your arbitrary decision to label Katana as such was meaningless in that section as is repeating it now. Katana's magic allowed her to move around targets and intercept Zod. Again, she has many feats reacting to and blocking energy attacks. Again, she made Boomerang looks pathetically slow in comparison even though he could clear a marketplace full of armed opponents and bullet-timed when he matched Deadshot with his boomerang.

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See that last image again. Katana and Harley waded through a squad before he could kill one, and Katana was going through faster than Harley by quite a bit.

Wolverine is multiple tiers of speed below Bruno and his claws are simply very sharp spikes, they don't create tears in the fabric of space. Unless Dark Beast can resist abilities that create such tears, Bruno will blitz and one shot him too if it comes to close combat.

I think you'll find a lot of people disagree on Wolverine being multiple tiers of speed below Wolverine, including me, but you missed the point completely. Wolverine did cut Dark Beast. The problem is Dark Beast is a technomorph and was changing the shape of his own body. Cutting the line that could simply be recreated doesn't do anything. Dark Beast dropped Wolverine with an electrical jolt after having been cut. Dark Beast was creating tentacles and shields faster than Cyclops and Havok's energy blasts were reaching him.

You don't need the speed to deal with Dark Beast. You need the ability to drop him through that defense and the durability to deal with his counter attacks.

Also, you are still presenting it as no limits.

It can reflect lethal damage, as I have already shown.

Again, how much damage? What is the best damage it has reflected? The problem is reflecting damage that doesn't image my high durability team members is useless for your team.

Abilities of stands have no range limits unless it is shown otherwise, many of them can affect the entire universe.

So you are trying to claim these stands in question have no limits in range. Can you demonstrate that claim? Sounds like it's a bit much for high street low mid tier maybe. And blatant NLF arguments. Again

That's a weird question, all physical damage at least.

So you can demonstrate fire and electrical damage being reflected? It's not weird because my team has a huge array of options available.

The ability reflects the damage, not the attack. For example, when a kid swapped a fly created by the ability away, the damage that was reflected back to him was enough to knock him out cold. Obviously, a 13-year-old doesn't swap flies with that kind of force, but the damage that would have been dealt to the fly would have probably knocked it out. So durability is kind of irrelevant against this ability.

So according to you, Thano swats a fly, the fly dies, so Thanos dies? Are you seeing where I am going with the constant NLF arguments from JJBA abilities?

Does Soultaker have feats of doing something similar to detecting transmuted beings created by life energy and instantly understanding a very specific ability they have and no stand user was ever able to detect? If not, your claim is baseless and your team will probably fall prey to this ability without ever realizing what hit them.

Plenty detecting opponents and giving Katana advice. They are in my opener. Your argument this time is the equivalent of "neck feats, please?". If you look back at my opener, detecting enemies is normal and letting her know something is safe or how to do something else is clearly there. The first thought that comes to mind is how to cut the bomb in half without blowing it up, or how to open the phantom zone portal.

He can't do that and he will not need to because the moment Katana comes into striking range, Bruno will zip her apart. They won't let her hurt any of the thugs.

Except Katana clearly has reaction and combat speeds beyond anything you've shown for Bruno, a history of slicing off limbs, and the reach from the blade he doesn't have.

Strategy

And these points...

When I said my main men would blend in I meant they would replace their weird clothes with something more appropriate and behave like normal human beings. Soultaker will be useless against this magnificent strategy.

Based on what feats that you've provided? It's pretty clear Soultaker wasn't fooled by a cleaner disguised as an old lady on the train.

You can't place your character at my base from the beginning, you don't even know where my base is at the start of the fight. In addition to that, are these explosives even standard gear?

I was casing the place out per my PM on strategy from my original post, as was later posted. Apparently I can. Plus, most of my characters have criminal and government connections to gain that information fast. Did you miss how many gangs Red Hood crushed in my opener, lol? Hell, I even pointed out Katana can simply kill people and question their spirits for information if needed. No, it's easy for my team to know where to go. Yours, not so much.

As for standard gear, Red Hood carries a few mini-explosives and his helmet has an explosive device in it. The secret to this is the safehouses scan in the OP that show all the explosives he's going to need. Plus, the warehouse has explosives as per my strategy. He can blow it up via his personal explosives and a gas line, or build more bombs out of his bike or vehicles in the area (per the environment), but if you nitpick on what he might have on him, simply hitting up his safehouse quickly would give him more than he needs.

The fact is, you left your base unprotected and created an easy win opportunity based on the 3 win methods.

First, they have to find my base which is just a normal building with no unique characteristics. They have no way to do so.

When did you present this information? What feats did you provide to demonstrate you had it hidden, unknown, nondescript, or secret from the other gangs, underworld, or snitches of the world? The point of the PM was to avoid metagaming and these types of responses. It's the type of thing that should have been mentioned in your opener, unfortunately.

You don't, you start at your base without the faintest Idea of my whereabouts.

Clearly I made a plan that was enabling me to do so. Unfortunately, you plan was to gather up and wander around hoping to find me.

The stand is the one creating the zipper, not Bruno.

Fair enough, but they still make holes through things and everyone stepping through them can be seen.

Why would they fire at random organisms on their side of the battlefield?

Because they are in the way. What you have for cover also blocks your own team. That, and friendly fire happens in a crossfire.

Do you understand they reflect any and all damage?

Do you know what an NLF argument is?

The stand is doing this, not him.

Got it.

An indestructible tree is a pretty good defense and my team is still free to dodge and use their stands to block.

That's not true of your thugs, and indesctructible? How about you give the best feats for the tree?

My team has at least four ways to deal with flamethrowers or explosions or whatever it is you are referring to (it's not very clear).

  1. Taking Manta down first with a preemptive strike, taking advantage of their superior speed and the fact Manta can't see stands.
  2. Blocking the fire with an indestructible tree that will reflect the damage and kill Manta instantly.
  3. Escaping using a zipper.
  4. Blocking with their stands (they are fast enough to react to explosions).

First, Manta not seeing stands simply means he's not attacking stands. Given these are massive AoE attacks the stands are irrelevant. A preemptive strike needs to proving closing distance over range and damage over his durability first, and possibly bypassing his forcefield. Please back up your claims.

Second, if there is suddenly an indestructible tree it would take no damage and therefore no damage would be returned. Also, prove the damage would go through the bioelectric forcefield.

Third, escape seems unlikely given you haven't given feats to demonstrate that speed of escape.

Fourth, the flames go around the stands. Go back and look at Manta's feats. I am talking about being completely surrounded with flames. It does sound like more NLF stands arguments, however. I didn't see any feats for resisting fire from them.

This blast is another example of something you would need to show durability for. Whether Manta sees the stands or not, the blast is coming. And it can work on intangible characters like Shadow Thief.

Manta isn't sneaking up on Aquaman in the scan you posted, he's just talking to him. You also didn't post any feats of Manta using his suit to become invisible or of Aquaman using his telepathy to detect hidden enemies (unless I missed something). You seem to be vastly overrating Manta's stealth capabilities.

Manta was talking to him after having sneaked in close enough to unexpectedly attack Deathstroke and Aquaman. I also posted the suits high tech camo/morphing in my opener.

I gave four examples of super hearing for things Aquaman could not see and one for his life sense to find life hiding inside a sunken ship. I can give more.

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The first is Trench. The second is Thulian refugees. Thulians are surface dwelling Atlanteans from before Atlantis sank. They are hiding in a magically created air pocket by one of their sorcerers. The third is Warhead, a Chinese cyborg. The fourth shows a scan for ambient life noise, sea life, and analyzing water type. Aquaman also has enhanced vision and can see in total darkness, plus the odd sense of smell feat.

The scan showing Aquaman hearing the dying heartbeat of a man through the hulls of a nuclear sub posted earlier should really have been enough here.

Giorno's life detection is going to find him without much trouble.

Manta's bioelectric field seems to stop Aquaman from sensing him. It'll work against Giorno's life detection.

My characters would fodderize Deathstroke.

You keep telling yourself that. :P

Your team can't even hide in an open field, don't hype them too much. The only things those feats prove is that they make no sound, which won't help them that much when there are 108 eyes and a stand that can sense life energy looking for them.

108 eyes worth little to nothing are still worth little to nothing, especially compared to Kryptonian or Martian senses. Katana disappear from the middle of her team in the open in one of the scans I included. GG. Ironically, all of them have been shown disguise ability as well and could easily hide among your own team or in an open field.

First, you need to prove Dark Beast even uses gas, because you didn't post any feats of him doing so. Then you need to prove that gas is invisible because if it's not it can be easily avoided. If you can prove that, the fact still remains that my team isn't going to throw caution to the wind and just enter the enemy base as a group without any safety measures. They will first interrogate Manta after they Zip him apart to find out what they can about your defenses then they will send a small group of thugs equipped with phones and transmuted organisms to scout the place. Catching my main men in a trap won't be easy.

Dark Beast uses science and technology. That doesn't take feats to prove. Sleep agent is already invisible, but that's irrelevant when the place is flooded with it. Considering this is an out-of-character tourney, it only matters that he's a tech supergenius capable of implementing it, and he very much is. Rigging his lairs is very typical, regardless.

You already gave your strategy and missed the boat on interrogating Manta, lol. You are backtracking what you do after the fact. Can't do that. It seems more likely you never made it past Manta's offense or are still trying to zipper your way out of there.

What exactly are the small group of thugs with phones going to do besides die quickly? Feats for your thugs and transmuted organisms?

Catching your men in a trap is laughably easy at this point based on what you were doing and the fact they won't know about the gas defense. Losing some of your men early doesn't change any outcomes here.

I have a few problems with that.

  1. That's going to take a lot of time, time you don't have.
  2. How is Black beast going to hide the bombs from the goons?
  3. The bombs are going to trigger when the thugs are shot, making them useless.
  4. Black Beast isn't going to able to do any of this with standard gear, meaning the things he carries on his body regularly.
  5. How is black beast going to forcibly implant stuff in all the goons? Are you going to fight your own goons before fighting my team?

1. Your plan was wandering around looking for my place. There's time to get some it. Plus, that's why I pointed out Dark Beast doesn't sleep and can work around the clock in my opener.

2. Small implant while doing his cyber upgrades. Or just put them in the cyber upgrades.

3. Why do you say that? They aren't your bombs and you aren't the mad scientist developing them.

4. Here is the relevant rule for you. It's standard gear or gear your characters are capable of creating. Red Hood and Dark Beast are capable of hellalot in that dept.

You only have access to your character's standard gear or gear your characters are capable of creating given the environment.

5. The same way he did it to Jamie Madrox, the multiple man. Reread my OP. I clearly demonstrated Dark Beast can create and install cybernetic enhancements in a warehouse using his hidden lab. All he needs is to install a bomb with the cybernetic upgrades. The thugs will allow the enhancements because of the reputation of my boss and made men. That scary rep is also in the OP. It's that same reason your thugs are likely to run away if fear. As covering in my OP.

Conclusion

This tournament is based on creating a plan and having voters select the most likely plan to win. Unfortunately, your basic plan walked right into my very much more coordinated plan.

Leaving your base unprotected while two of my main characters were actively casing it out makes for the win for me regardless of how I choose to destroy your base. Even if you really want to push me not knowing where your base is (which certainly isn't stated as a fact) then my two characters are better equipped with the necessary experience to find your base before you find mine, and destroy your unprotected base before you find mine, let alone destroy mine with a well thought out defense.

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#14 Posted by Ashrym (2970 posts) - - Show Bio

@unlimited1: Okidoke, sry about the delayed reply. Post is up. :)

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#15 Posted by Ashrym (2970 posts) - - Show Bio