VS.
- Galactus has just consumed 3 planets
- Surtur gets Twilight Sword
- Takes place in an indestructible galaxy
Can the two hell lords defeat the World Eater?
VS.
Can the two hell lords defeat the World Eater?
Team.
I would say Dormammu alone can give him serious problems, so adding Surtur seals the deal. They aren't Hell Lords, btw.
@laylah: Who would you say is the most powerful of all Hell Lords?
@darth_nimrod said:
Who would you say is the most powerful of all Hell Lords?
Either Lucifer, Marduk Kurios or Satannish.
And between the three above? Impossible to say.
@laylah: Who would you say is the most powerful of all Hell Lords?
Mephisto, then Satannish
@jonez_ said:
Mephisto, then Satannish
Mephisto jobs too much for such position. Some writers see him as the ultimate evil while others do not, but that was usually back in the 60s/70s. He's been portrayed numerous times as equal or close to Hela these days, so definitely isn't the most powerful.
Galactus can be moderately sated by 1 world fed...
...I think Big G would need to devour 2-3 worlds to win this!!
Team.
I would say Dormammu alone can give him serious problems, so adding Surtur seals the deal. They aren't Hell Lords, btw.
Galactus
Fight.
Galactus
Man, this is a moderately fed galactus, Dormammu alone would probably beat him
Any reasons why you would think that would be the case?
Wouldn't that be at odds because we've actually seen a hungry Galactus go up against one of the highest tier mysic being (agamotto) in his own realm and was dominating the whole encounter.
Man, this is a moderately fed galactus, Dormammu alone would probably beat him
Any reasons why you would think that would be the case?
Wouldn't that be at odds because we've actually seen a hungry Galactus go up against one of the highest tier mysic being (agamotto) in his own realm and was dominating the whole encounter.
Just check a dormammu respect thread or a dormammu vs X cosmic being
He fought 1 vs 1 with eternity and was equal to him, and eternity is as powerful (if not more powerful) than a completely full fed Galactus
He sealed eternity, his spells could destroy the ENTIRE celestial race, while galactus was beaten by 4
Galactus is seriously outmatched if moderately fed, and in disadvantage if he is fully fed
And, even if he dont need him, dormammu have powerful help
Yeah this isn't good for Galactus. He might edge surtur who is equal to Odin who came very close to stalemate with Galen. Dormmamu is also a threat alone so the team should win here.
I wouldn't exactly call Odin's fight with Galen a near stalemate. Odin used channeled all of his power into the headbutt, and while Galactus healed almost instantly, Odin entered the Odinsleep.
@bladeoffury: I know but he didn't enter Odin sleep he summoned the destroyer that was ratified. But still Odin near stalemated but it's moot as Surtur with sword is actually more powerful then Odin. And dormmamu combined should be enough since he alone can fight on even terms
Odin seemed pretty far from stalemating, considering Galactus healed back immediately and Odin was out of the fight, but if Dormammu can truly match Galactus, I will make Galen fed by 3 planets. That should even things up.
Just check a dormammu respect thread or a dormammu vs X cosmic being
He fought 1 vs 1 with eternity and was equal to him, and eternity is as powerful (if not more powerful) than a completely full fed Galactus
He sealed eternity, his spells could destroy the ENTIRE celestial race, while galactus was beaten by 4
Galactus is seriously outmatched if moderately fed, and in disadvantage if he is fully fed
And, even if he dont need him, dormammu have powerful help
1st, it's plenty more reliable to go off a story and its context vs respect threads!!
Next, please elaborate on your claim that Dormammu's spell can destroy even 1 Celestial, let alone the entire race.
On topic--
Galactus would win if "moderately" fed!!
He fought 1 vs 1 with eternity and was equal to him, and eternity is as powerful (if not more powerful) than a completely full fed Galactus
This is actually not true. Dormammu has never been an equal to eternity. Dormammu and Eternity have sort of fought twice.
Once in Strange Tales # 146 where:
".... Dormammu's power was no match for the universal embodiment, who dismissed his foe to the mysterious Realm Unknown"
Take word to word from Dormammu's own bio as published in Marvel Handbook 2006.
The next one takes place in Defenders vol 2 # 2 and takes place entirely off panel. But Dormammu was massively amped in this encounter because of the shift in cosmic axis as well as having the power of his sites flow through him.
"Umar humored him while, via a shift in cosmic axis, the pair's power increased to such extent that they were able to overwhelm Eternity."
Again , exactly word for word from the aforementioned bio.
In fact in the same issue Eternity tells Dormammu that a beings like him are too insignificant for him remember.
The same issue, again and again, repeats that with Eternity's power now Dormammu is like a god, and how big a boost Eternity is.
He sealed eternity, his spells could destroy the ENTIRE celestial race, while galactus was beaten by 4
He sealed Eternity while the formal was in his microsm of the universe form, the tiny form. That does not say anything about Dormammu being even close to Eternity in terms of his power.
When Dormammu was able to take Strange's body, he said his powers were growing and soon he thought he could burn the celestials. That's just a wild dream Dormammu had of what might happened because of the power increase he received because of the merger. It never happened.
@bladeoffury said:
They're not hell lords? Who are they then? Demons?
Neither of the alternatives. They're simply mystical and mythological entities/beings.
Any reasons why you would think that would be the case?
Wouldn't that be at odds because we've actually seen a hungry Galactus go up against one of the highest tier mysic being (agamotto) in his own realm and was dominating the whole encounter.
I'll address your other posts here after seeing your reply, Clay. But...Do you've any proof that Agamotto was even seriously in that fight? Because I've got three Bio's(Which confirms Agamotto's erratic behavior and tendency to play with his opponents), another comic written by the same person and Strange's words to show otherwise.I don't see where you even got the part that Galactus was dominating the whole encounter. Dormammu once overpowered the Vishanti if you want to go by that route in Doctor Strange: Season One(Albeit with a bit of context) and defeated equally powerful foes off-panel like the Trinity of Ashes/Slorioth. Besides...Your comparison isn't even fair, to begin with. It's been explicitly mentioned multiple times and in Bio's that Agamotto's light is extremely dangerous to beings of darkness such as Dormammu, so would affect him far more than Galactus. I do think Galactus wins with the specifications above, but not a hungry one given Dormammu's considerable performances against beings such as Giraud and the GotG, Zom(Off-panel) and others.
Im not sure how "fed" galactus is after just eating 3 planets. Is that considered a "full" galactus? I understand unless hes life bringer hes always going to have some degree of hunger, but I just dont have enough context to know how full he is after 3.
If 3 is considered very well fed for him, Ill go big G in a very tough fight. If 3 planets is considered moderately fed at best, team takes it.
@laylah: lets see it...from what i know galactus stalemated agamotto (in his own realm) and ive seen that scan regurgitated in just about any 'galactus vs the cosmic abstracts' threads.
Their battle ended in a standstill/stalemate either way it's argued...
I do believe Agamotto would have eventually outlasted Galactus considering G being malnourished even before the conflict.
However, Agamotto held every advantage in that fight. I mean, the fight was in Agamotto's world/dimension and Big G was hungry...
The battle never really had a clear conclusion on who "would have" actually won, but Galactus DID retrieve what he came for then bounced...
You can easily chalk that up as a victory for Galactus tho!!
@cosmic_reign: it does absolutely shown that galactus was able to destroy agamottos memory orbs though but not physically damage him, on the other hand agamotto did no damage whatsoever to galactus. I think Agamotto would win in a very LONG battle given that it was in his realm and i doubt galactus has the power to completely "kill" him in his own realm, i think outside of it though a fed galactus beats him from pillar to post.
@JBobGlass said:
lets see it...from what i know galactus stalemated agamotto (in his own realm) and ive seen that scan regurgitated in just about any 'galactus vs the cosmic abstracts' threads.
I don't care what they say or post since I've got official information on my side. I've already argued about that instance with Claymore in another thread: The problem is that you aren't seeing from Agamotto's point of view but from yours. Don't you remember what happened during Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme#7( Which is written by the same guy who made the fight between Galactus and Agamotto)?:
Agamotto clearly didn't want Stephen to leave and fought against him in multiple forms, in fact, the battle was exactly like the one against Galactus( Agamotto getting bigger at first and his voice panel becoming bolder) and Stephen said that Agamotto was only toying with him:
Agamotto showed to not take fights seriously as portrayed above, then why the case must be different with Galactus? Even more, when both battles were written by the same person?( Which is one of the only three on panel fights of Agamotto)? In fact, Doctor Strange himself alluded this during the fight against Galactus. His Bio during Avengers Roll Call#1 backup said personality:
And during Marvel's Official Handbook Vol.3#8:
Once again in Marvel's Official Handbook#5, The Mystic Arcana:
Stephen explicit mentioned about Agamotto only using those forms when he's in the mood, which means wasn't his true one or was taking the battle seriously:
You're also confusing the events of the battle because only at the end Agamotto was portrayed to have noticed and starting to worry, as well becoming angry about his memory bubbles. However, the other members of the Vishanti intervened before Agamotto could do anything about it:
Strange was able to damage Agamotto's form and was even quite unscratched.......Does that mean Strange is more powerful than him even though numerous Handbooks shows otherwise? An Agamotto who isn't serious shouldn't be used as a way to measure his true power. And despite all that, Agamotto's Bio still stated that the same was able to hold his own against the world-devourer:
And Galactus himself said the battle ended in a stalemate:
The very fight against Galactus in unquantifiable given the amount of context involved( Neither also fought at their normal levels of power). The Vishanti's members are more powerful when together too:
So Agamotto would be even more powerful when with Oshtur and Hoggoth. There's nothing ever stating that Agamotto gets more powerful in his dimension, which would make sense since the whole place was created by him under his magic powers( Might be the opposite effect when analyzing that Agamotto needs to sustain the dimension with his powers in the middle of a battle): "
Their battle ended in a standstill/stalemate either way it's argued...
I do believe Agamotto would have eventually outlasted Galactus considering G being malnourished even before the conflict.
However, Agamotto held every advantage in that fight. I mean, the fight was in Agamotto's world/dimension and Big G was hungry...
The battle never really had a clear conclusion on who "would have" actually won, but Galactus DID retrieve what he came for then bounced...
You can easily chalk that up as a victory for Galactus tho!!
The battle ended in a stalemate with heavy context presented on both sides. I don't know why you think that Agamotto had every advantage...Galactus was out of his element as Strange mentioned, but let's not overlook the circumstances. Even normal humans like Strange and almost novice mages such as Silver Dagger can easily traffic over Agamotto's Realm without too much problem, so it would look bad for Galactus if such thing is that of a hindrance. Strange also said that being in Agamotto's Dimension might give him upper-hand and thus may result in Galactus perishing anyway:
So what if Galactus retrieved the talismans? Agamotto was the one who decided that and only because the other members of the Vishanti had previously lectured him. You can't ignore my post above about Aga not taking the fight seriously and all the other handicaps as well.
I clearly see your arguments as we have debated on this before...
BUT if Agamotto wasn't serious about this battle, then that's on him, and it showed as Galactus got what he wanted either way!!
Also, as mentioned before, Osther and Hoggoth intervened because their realms were being affected as well as a side effect of this battle!!
@cosmic_reign said:
I clearly see your arguments as we have debated on this before...
BUT if Agamotto wasn't serious about this battle, then that's on him, and it showed as Galactus got what he wanted either way!!
Also, as mentioned before, Osther and Hoggoth intervened because their realms were being affected as well as a side effect of this battle!!
So basically a "Let's ignore all the context in Agamotto's side"? Seems like a totally legit and non-bias view, right? Galactus got what he wanted just because Agamotto decided to give to him and I still don't understand your fixation with Hoggoth and Oshtur's realm being threatened. Do you want to use that as some sort of feat? Galactus didn't do that by himself and doesn't mean anything...Agamotto created his own realm before ascending to the Vishanti and in a much weaker form, in fact, Dormammu himself has almost destroyed the Dark Dimension just by getting angry or even Strange has done similar things.
So basically a "Let's ignore all the context in Agamotto's side"? Seems like a totally legit and non-bias view, right? Galactus got what he wanted just because Agamotto decided to give to him and I still don't understand your fixation with Hoggoth and Oshtur's realm being threatened. Do you want to use that as some sort of feat? Galactus didn't do that by himself and doesn't mean anything...Agamotto created his own realm before ascending to the Vishanti and in a much weaker form, in fact, Dormammu himself has almost destroyed the Dark Dimension just by getting angry or even Strange has done similar things.
What context is being ignored?? That Agamotto wasn't serious?? Like I said, that's clearly on him...he must have underestimated his opponent. This wasn't Strange or any other mere mortal that he was battling.
My fixation on Hoggoth and Osthur's involvement can be supported on panel. They specifically said that their realms were being affected by the fight. Not like I'm using that as a feat for Galactus.
@cosmic_reign said:
What context is being ignored?? That Agamotto wasn't serious?? Like I said, that's clearly on him...he must have underestimated his opponent. This wasn't Strange or any other mere mortal that he was battling.
My fixation on Hoggoth and Osthur's involvement can be supported on panel. They specifically said that their realms were being affected by the fight. Not like I'm using that as a feat for Galactus.
Then I strongly advise a better structure your points, friend. They're usually followed by disagreements and agreements at the same time, which makes hard to understand your initial/main argument. Why does their involvement even matter in the fight? Why is worth mentioning anyway? Heck...How does that even contribute to the discussion? They still dismissed Galactus at the end of the day and stopped the battle.
@claymore1998: im on my mobile and i cant properly show scans or link other threads, but if you want cosmic feats of dormammu, they are easy to find in respect threads or in cav battles, the amount of effort it would take to properly inser content via phone is not worth it
Fully fed galactus vs dormammu could be a very interesting fight, moderate galactus vs dormammu is not...... and surtur is near the equal of odin, who is near the equal of galactus, as IG thanos stated (and another comic, i cant remember the second)
If you are going to bring the brief fight odin and galactus have (the famous headbutt thing) you should know that just like galactus, odins power depends directly of his energy reserves, and that wasnt his best by a long shot (just like galactus wasnt at his best by a long shot when the avengers beated him unconscious) a "full" odin would be much more similar to the fight of king thor agains galactus, in wich thor, old and with the odinforce (in a powerlevel and stats pretty similar to odin) fought long and hard against galactus, breaking bones and teeth of galactus, making him bleed, making him puke from a gut punch and causing him a decent amount of wounds and armor breakings, even if he was at disadvantage
Im not saying that surtur is equal to galactus, but just as the thing can give some fight to the hulk, even if he is bound to lose in the end, surtur could do the same to galactus, after all, he has showed universal blast on screen when fighting odin, so surtur is not a non factor, and dormammu is as powerful as a moderate galactus, if not more
@claymore1998: im on my mobile and i cant properly show scans or link other threads, but if you want cosmic feats of dormammu, they are easy to find in respect threads or in cav battles, the amount of effort it would take to properly inser content via phone is not worth it
I don't think Claymore needs to see Dormammu's feats given her knowledge about the character, though(Although I don't agree at all with most of her interpretations). I know much more than used to be in the old debates, so might be interesting to see how things will play out this time.
@cosmic_reign said:
What context is being ignored?? That Agamotto wasn't serious?? Like I said, that's clearly on him...he must have underestimated his opponent. This wasn't Strange or any other mere mortal that he was battling.
My fixation on Hoggoth and Osthur's involvement can be supported on panel. They specifically said that their realms were being affected by the fight. Not like I'm using that as a feat for Galactus.
Then I strongly advise a better structure your points, friend. They're usually followed by disagreements and agreements at the same time, which makes hard to understand your initial/main argument. Why does their involvement even matter in the fight? Why is worth mentioning anyway? Heck...How does that even contribute to the discussion? They still dismissed Galactus at the end of the day and stopped the battle.
Advice noted...and by-passed, friend!!
My initial argument on this was that the battle ended in a standstill!!
However, I can see how others(including myself) can also see it as a win for Galactus with or without context.
It was worth mentioning the Vishanti because they are the exact reason why the battle ended--but there was also context to their intervention.
As said earlier, I do believe Agamotto would have won that particular encounter had it continued because of context.
Either way, the battle ended prematurely with no decisive winner.
Perhaps a moral victory for Galactus as he got what he came for.
On topic--
I'm still supporting a "moderately" fed Galactus ftw!!
Cheers
@cosmic_reign said:
Advice noted...and by-passed, friend!!
My initial argument on this was that the battle ended in a standstill!!
However, I can see how others(including myself) can also see it as a win for Galactus with or without context.
It was worth mentioning the Vishanti because they are the exact reason why the battle ended--but there was also context to their intervention.
As said earlier, I do believe Agamotto would have won that particular encounter because of context.
Either way, the battle ended prematurely with no decisive winner.
Perhaps a moral victory for Galactus as he got what he came for.
On topic--
I'm still supporting a "moderately" fed Galactus ftw!!
Cheers
Could you explain why would that be considered as a clear win for Galactus? Especially when the character itself acknowledge as a stalemate and Strange mentions the possibility of the same dying if the battle had prolongated? I can agree in a "moral victory" for Galactus given the Big G got the talismans, but was more because of the Vishanti's intervention than anything, which I don't see as something worth mentioning anyway. I see Galan as a winner, btw.
Team.
I would say Dormammu alone can give him serious problems, so adding Surtur seals the deal. They aren't Hell Lords, btw.
Galactus
Fight.
The OP didn't have Galactus with three planets consumed when I first posted, so as much as surprise me...I actually agree with Killemall for the first time on this one. I don't think it's that of a stomp, though.
@cosmic_reign said:
Advice noted...and by-passed, friend!!
My initial argument on this was that the battle ended in a standstill!!
However, I can see how others(including myself) can also see it as a win for Galactus with or without context.
It was worth mentioning the Vishanti because they are the exact reason why the battle ended--but there was also context to their intervention.
As said earlier, I do believe Agamotto would have won that particular encounter because of context.
Either way, the battle ended prematurely with no decisive winner.
Perhaps a moral victory for Galactus as he got what he came for.
On topic--
I'm still supporting a "moderately" fed Galactus ftw!!
Cheers
Could you explain why would that be considered as a clear win for Galactus? Especially when the character itself acknowledge as a stalemate and Strange mentions the possibility of the same dying if the battle had prolongated? I can agree in a "moral victory" for Galactus given the Big G got the talismans, but was more because of the Vishanti's intervention than anything, which I don't see as something worth mentioning anyway. I see Galan as a winner, btw.
Referring to Galactus vs Agamotto, I completely agree on a stalemate with G at very most getting a moral victory in that particular encounter.
Fair enough, the Vishanti seemed pretty disappointed with Agamotto for engaging with Galactus in such a way.
@cosmic_reign said:
Referring to Galactus vs Agamotto, I completely agree on a stalemate with G at very most getting a moral victory in that particular encounter.
Fair enough, the Vishanti seemed pretty disappointed with Agamotto for engaging with Galactus in such a way.
Agree with all your points.
Thanks for the discussion, I think that was very interesting.
@darth_nimrod said:
Who would you say is the most powerful of all Hell Lords?
Either Lucifer, Marduk Kurios or Satannish.
And between the three above? Impossible to say.
Despite constant jobbing I would put Mephisto in their ranks as well, if he was significantly strong enough to contend with Satannish or Marduk I doubt they would let him sit with them at the cool kids table in hell where they discuss their plans
I've never viewed him as a Hell-Lord persay but I recall seeing a scan once where Mephisto once claimed that if a being was worthy of the throne of hell the closest person would be Cyttorak.
Based on feats I know of which is fairly limited I'd be tempted to say Lucifer Lightbringer or Satannish takes top dog but as you said it's impossible to know for sure.
I recall Mephisto and Dormy pulling Big G into Mephistos Dimension where G fed started feeding on the souls there until they booted him out, I've always felt they at least felt they had a chance against him before he started feeding so I'm confident with Miphisto getting an upgrade into Surtur that the team would be able to take your average Galactus, that being said his power-level varies greatly depending on his hunger level and with 3 planets recently consumed I don't believe the team would stand any chance here
@detacude: Despite constant jobbing I would put Mephisto in their ranks as well, if he was significantly strong enough to contend with Satannish or Marduk I doubt they would let him sit with them at the cool kids table in hell where they discuss their plans
Asmodeus is a Hell-Lord and sometimes mentioned to be one of the "Seven Princes of Hell" by Marvel himself: Lost to Colossus and 60s Ghost Rider. Beelzebub is been mentioned as one of the most powerful demons to ever exist and not so far behind Satan: Struggled against Nightcrawler and was harmed by normal swords. See? Titles and positions mean nothing these days. You can't compare a character power-wise only by such frivoled things. Have you considered that Mephisto is only that high because the others to compete with the position are even more pathetic? It's hard to find powerful demons.
I've never viewed him as a Hell-Lord persay but I recall seeing a scan once where Mephisto once claimed that if a being was worthy of the throne of hell the closest person would be Cyttorak.
I know the comic and it's Journey into Mystery#627. It doesn't speak of power at all, but of their arrogance to some extent:
It's basically what they think and not a fact. That only proves Mephisto's stupidy.
Based on feats I know of which is fairly limited I'd be tempted to say Lucifer Lightbringer or Satannish takes top dog but as you said it's impossible to know for sure.
Between Satannish, Lucifer and Marduk? Sure.
Now with Mephisto? Not even debatable.
I recall Mephisto and Dormy pulling Big G into Mephistos Dimension where G fed started feeding on the souls there until they booted him out, I've always felt they at least felt they had a chance against him before he started feeding so I'm confident with Miphisto getting an upgrade into Surtur that the team would be able to take your average Galactus, that being said his power-level varies greatly depending on his hunger level and with 3 planets recently consumed I don't believe the team would stand any chance here
Never happened, friend. Mephisto has only faced-off a hungry Galactus in Hell during Silver Surfer: Judgment Day and Dormmy wasn't even involved. Mephy also isn't part of this battle anyway.
@laylah: Never happened, friend. Mephisto has only faced-off a hungry Galactus in Hell during Silver Surfer: Judgment Day and Dormmy wasn't even involved. Mephy also isn't part of this battle anyway.
Reviewing it again I see your right, but Mephisto was actually doing pretty well against Big G in his own realm which makes me think that the team might actually stand a chance at putting down a 3 planet fed Galactus so go with the team in a very slim majority for now
Galactus would have a difficult time with either of them.
Even if Galan had just ate 3 planets he'd have trouble with Surtur?
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