• 91 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for lettsplay10
#1 Posted by lettsplay10 (20589 posts) - - Show Bio

Galactus and Celestials

No Caption Provided

Lucifer and Michael

No Caption Provided

  • Tiamut The Dreaming Celestial
  • Exitar The Executioner
  • Galactus The Devourer And Life Bringer Of Worlds With The Ultimate Nullifier In His Pocket
  • Scathan The Approver

VS

Lucifer and Michael

Fight Takes Place In The Marvel Multiverse

Morals Off Fight To The Death

Avatar image for lord-parallax
#2 Posted by Lord-Parallax (4503 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1.

Avatar image for grayhold
#3 Posted by Grayhold (122 posts) - - Show Bio

Aren't Michael and Lucifer just universal on grand power scale?

If so, Team 1 should win by default.

Avatar image for deactivated-597fe3e7af56f
#4 Edited by deactivated-597fe3e7af56f (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

Scathan disapproves.

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
#5 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16272 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

Avatar image for deactivated-5b9a7b52ce5df
#6 Posted by deactivated-5b9a7b52ce5df (2403 posts) - - Show Bio

before the lowballing begins I shall call forth an expert

@cruelestashley

really sorry if you're not interested.

Avatar image for deactivated-5a853424245e3
#7 Posted by deactivated-5a853424245e3 (4168 posts) - - Show Bio

Michael and Lucifer alone would be able to stomp. Michael effortlessly disposed of a pissed off Spectre, so his damage output would be more than enough to put them down. Moreover, even if they somehow managed to kill him (they wouldn't), none of them, save Lucifer (who did so twice--once while severely weakened), would be able to survive the Demiurgic explosion from his body.

Avatar image for gotoucanario
#9 Posted by Gotoucanario (2946 posts) - - Show Bio

spite

Avatar image for deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f
#10 Posted by deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f (6669 posts) - - Show Bio

@cruelestashley:

Michael and Lucifer alone would be able to stomp.

Michael and Lucifer can stomp a being above the Living Tribunal?

Michael effortlessly disposed of a pissed off Spectre

Not that great a feat, not only is Spectre a jobber at times, but any wielder of the IG would oneshot Spectre.

so his damage output would be more than enough to put them down.

They don't really have any durability feats to survive Michael or Lucifer, but Scathan was above the LT. and assuming Galan can pull the Ultimate nullifer from his ass then you have to worry about a multiverse busting and recreating weapon. neither Lucifer nor Michael have enough feats to say they would survive repeated multiverse busting attacks.

Moreover, even if they somehow managed to kill him (they wouldn't)

Erasing him from existence seems the most prudent attack.

none of them, save Lucifer (who did so twice--once while severely weakened), would be able to survive the Demiurgic explosion from his body.

that explosion was universal, hardly a great feat to say that no one would survive.

Avatar image for brucerogers
#11 Posted by BruceRogers (17185 posts) - - Show Bio

Michael and Lucifer alone would be able to stomp. Michael effortlessly disposed of a pissed off Spectre, so his damage output would be more than enough to put them down. Moreover, even if they somehow managed to kill him (they wouldn't), none of them, save Lucifer (who did so twice--once while severely weakened), would be able to survive the Demiurgic explosion from his body.

Was that explosion multiversal or universal?

Avatar image for deactivated-5a853424245e3
#12 Posted by deactivated-5a853424245e3 (4168 posts) - - Show Bio

Michael and Lucifer can stomp a being above the Living Tribunal?

The Living Tribunal doesn't have the damage output to harm either of them, contrary to what some may think.

Not that great a feat, not only is Spectre a jobber at times, but any wielder of the IG would oneshot Spectre.

The Spectre being an ant to Michael is not a great feat... right. Also, the Spectre only jobs when God wants him to, and in that case, I fail to see any evidence suggesting he was.

and assuming Galan can pull the Ultimate nullifer from his ass then you have to worry about a multiverse busting and recreating weapon. neither Lucifer nor Michael have enough feats to say they would survive repeated multiverse busting attacks.

Lucifer tanked Michael's Demiurgic explosion while severely weakened. Multiple multiversal energy attacks aren't going to do anything to him. In fact, Lucifer not only tanked it, but he was able to operate under the conditions fluidly, fortifying Elaine's body so she would be able to absorb it.

Erasing him from existence seems the most prudent attack.

So, they BFR them to the Void?

that explosion was universal, hardly a great feat to say that no one would survive.

There's no difference between universal and multiversal in the Lucifer narrative.

@cruelestashley said:

Michael and Lucifer alone would be able to stomp. Michael effortlessly disposed of a pissed off Spectre, so his damage output would be more than enough to put them down. Moreover, even if they somehow managed to kill him (they wouldn't), none of them, save Lucifer (who did so twice--once while severely weakened), would be able to survive the Demiurgic explosion from his body.

Was that explosion multiversal or universal?

Mike Carey clarified there's no difference in the story. A shore of infinite power after all, is infinite.

Avatar image for deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f
#13 Posted by deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f (6669 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers: It says "creation" implying mutliversal. but with writer statements it becomes universal iirc.

@mysticmedivh has scans of the writer saying he sees no difference between a universe and a multiverse just the way they're split.

Avatar image for thesuperor
#14 Posted by TheSuperor (6384 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 easy

Avatar image for brucerogers
#15 Edited by BruceRogers (17185 posts) - - Show Bio

@cruelestashley: Actually it does matter since neither Mike nor Lucy are literally infinite.

Avatar image for newworldorder
#16 Posted by NewWorldOrder (1776 posts) - - Show Bio

The brothers

Avatar image for deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f
#17 Posted by deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f (6669 posts) - - Show Bio

@cruelestashley: Thanks for the tag lol.

The Living Tribunal doesn't have the damage output to harm either of them, contrary to what some may think.

That sounds nutty. Adam Warlock wielding the IG one shot Eternity a multiversal+ abstract. LT nullifed it with a snap of his fingers.

Via scaling off of the IG and those it beats he can easily harm both Michael and Lucfier.

The Spectre being an ant to Michael is not a great feat... right.

Its not. the Spectre would be an ant to any IG wielder (classic not current) and LT is vastly superior to that, and Scathan was supposedly his superior.

Also, the Spectre only jobs when God wants him to, and in that case, I fail to see any evidence suggesting he was.

Piss poor logic considering you could put all his jobbing on literally "God" and therefor its unusable? why would god want Spectre to beat Michael? if God wanted him to lose then Michael swatting him away isn't a good feat by your logic. what evidence is there that he wasn't jobbing?

Lucifer tanked Michael's Demiurgic explosion while severely weakened.

Again universal ≠ multiversal contrary to what the writer states. if that were the case than literally every single universe buster becomes a multiverse buster.

Multiple multiversal energy attacks aren't going to do anything to him.

  1. You haven't shown evidence that he would survive one blast let alone a barrage
  2. thats a massive NLF

In fact, Lucifer not only tanked it, but he was able to operate under the conditions fluidly, fortifying Elaine's body so she would be able to absorb it.

Thats a great feat and all, but multiversal is infinitely > universal.

So, they BFR them to the Void?

Has he done that on a consistent basis to people as powerful as this team? or on a consistent basis in a fight period?

Lucifer is probably the craftiest person in comics that ive read, so i have no doubt he would assuming he doesn't die immediately.

There's no difference between universal and multiversal in the Lucifer narrative.

Which doesn't make any sense whatsoever, higher levels of infinity...

Avatar image for deactivated-5a853424245e3
#18 Posted by deactivated-5a853424245e3 (4168 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

No Caption Provided

The Demiurgic power is also infinite--and we have clarification from God about it:

Lucifer #39
Lucifer #39

Avatar image for sirmethos
#19 Posted by SirMethos (1600 posts) - - Show Bio

I always find it amusing when I see comments like "Yeah team 1 on the sole reason of Scathan."

Considering that Scathan doesn't actually have any feats which demonstrates him being anywhere near that power level.

The sole "power" feat that is brought up about him is the feat of him "not approving", essentially tilting the scales between protegé and TLT, and even in that feat we are not actually shown any actual power. It could just as easily be a simple influence feat.

We've seen that the Celestials are connected to the Fulcrum, so one could easily argue that what Scathan does, is simply put in the deciding vote, due to his position as "The Approver".

I could see actual arguments for the other 3 putting up a serious fight here, even having a chance to win, but going by actual feats, Scathan brings less to the table than the other members of his team.

Avatar image for brucerogers
#20 Posted by BruceRogers (17185 posts) - - Show Bio

@cruelestashley: Well I guess I will take your word for it since it's been a very long time since I read Lucifer

Avatar image for deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f
#21 Posted by deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f (6669 posts) - - Show Bio

@cruelestashley: You know who else has supposed infinite power? the Infinity gauntlet, Eternity, Infinity etc etc

If we go by statements then Odin is omnipotent, Eternity is omnipotent, Thanos with the Gauntlet is omnipotent. people who have infinite power have been beaten by others.

Avatar image for deactivated-5a853424245e3
#22 Edited by deactivated-5a853424245e3 (4168 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2: It's bad habit of mine, forgetting tags--my apologies.

That sounds nutty. Adam Warlock wielding the IG one shot Eternity a multiversal+ abstract. LT nullifed it with a snap of his fingers.

The Living Tribunal is the embodiment of the multiverse, and I fail to recall any instances of him superseding himself. Irrespective of that, I'd prefer feats or statements from associated comics to back up any of them having the damage output necessary. Moreover, I don't see any of those attacks/projections being on par with Michael's ultimate release of Demiurgic power.

Via scaling off of the IG and those it beats he can easily harm both Michael and Lucfier.

I don't see the IG doing anything to either of them, especially given Lucifer's mainstay is willpower, which has manipulated nigh-omnipotent characters.

Its not. the Spectre would be an ant to any IG wielder (classic not current) and LT is vastly superior to that, and Scathan was supposedly his superior.

The Spectre is as powerful, again, as God wants him to be--if God wanted him as more powerful than the gauntlet, he would be. Furthermore, are you aware of the Spectre's high end feats?

Piss poor logic considering you could put all his jobbing on literally "God" and therefor its unusable?

I don't see how explaining the mechanics behind how the Spectre works is "piss poor logic".

why would god want Spectre to beat Michael? if God wanted him to lose then Michael swatting him away isn't a good feat by your logic. what evidence is there that he wasn't jobbing?

I don't think either of us are in a position to assume what God ultimately wants, given how contradictory his actions are in the narrative. Moreover, you are aware of how God treated Michael throughout Lucifer, right? Then again, the fundamentals of the Spectre's power seem new to you, so I'm going to assume you haven't even read the story where they fight.

Again universal ≠ multiversal contrary to what the writer states.

That's not how it works. If the writer creates something one way, that's how it is, regardless of fan speculation and opinion. This isn't something mutable, however much you would like to debate the semantics; albeit pointlessly.

if that were the case than literally every single universe buster becomes a multiverse buster.

That's a false equivalency--Mike Carey created his world where they are one in the same, unlike other writers. Why would his logic carry over to theirs? The structure of his multiverse is different from other writers', and it makes little sense to change either to compensate one way or another.

  1. You haven't shown evidence that he would survive one blast let alone a barrage

I figured it was common knowledge, but if you'd like scans, I can provide them, though I find it kind of hypocritical you're demanding scans when you yourself have provided none:

Here in Lucifer #13, Lucifer slewed Michael, tanking his multiversal blast (i.e., it's a big bang, and we have Carey's clarification of what a multiverse is), creating his infinite universe. Lucifer was at full power here and was not scathed in the slightest. He also, in the next issues, demonstrated, he can will this energy projection as he pleases--so he has multiversal willpower.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Next, we have Lucifer #57, wherein Fenris bloodlusts a weakened Lucifer and turns him on a weakened Michael. The former kills the latter, resulting in another Big Bang, wiping out the World Tree and Yggdrasil. It's assumed by Fenris that Lucifer and Elaine are too weak to withstand this magnitude of energy, which was true in the case of Elaine, as she faltered in the midst of the blast, but Lucifer (who was weakened by God leaving the multiverse, the trip itself to Yggdrasil [which is how Fenris was able to control him] and of course from Michael's attacks) tanked the blast, fortified Elaine's body and redirected the energy into it, with only cosmetic damage resulting.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

To further evidence this as cosmetic damage, Lucifer was absolutely fine at the beginning of the next issue, which takes place with no time skip:

No Caption Provided

Thats a great feat and all, but multiversal is infinitely > universal.

You're debating semantics--what's the difference between a similar structured multiverse and universe, each containing infinite mass density?

Has he done that on a consistent basis to people as powerful as this team? or on a consistent basis in a fight period?

Pardon? I wasn't referring to Lucifer/Michael BFRing anyone.

Lucifer is probably the craftiest person in comics that ive read, so i have no doubt he would assuming he doesn't die immediately.

Lucifer doesn't have access to the Void without God's name.

Which doesn't make any sense whatsoever, higher levels of infinity...

It makes sense, but you're clinging rigidly to a reductionist view of the universe.

Edit:

You know who else has supposed infinite power? the Infinity gauntlet, Eternity, Infinity etc etc

God's a far more reliable source than a title.

If we go by statements then Odin is omnipotent, Eternity is omnipotent, Thanos with the Gauntlet is omnipotent. people who have infinite power have been beaten by others.

That would imply each and every statement is invalid on the basis of being a statement, which completely ignores context. Now, I find the word of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being to be far more reliable than a narrative intentionally using hyperbole, a narrative using omnipotent in a different context than assumed, etc.

Avatar image for cosmic_reign
#23 Posted by cosmic_reign (3428 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1

Tiamut solos

Scathan solos

Avatar image for ataraxy
#24 Edited by Ataraxy (152 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer solos. Michael solos.

Avatar image for deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f
#25 Posted by deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f (6669 posts) - - Show Bio

@cruelestashley:

It's bad habit of mine, forgetting tags--my apologies.

NP

The Living Tribunal is the embodiment of the multiverse, and I fail to recall any instances of him superseding himself

If by himself you mean the multiverse, then i have already posted feats of him nullifying an above multiversal thing.Also this, take it for what you will: But he apparently controls every multiverse, implying his power is more than just multiversal

Irrespective of that, I'd prefer feats or statements from associated comics to back up any of them having the damage output necessary.

Actually i don't remember any feats from the Living tribunal that shows he has great energy projection. its his (reality warping?) other powers that allow him to easily nullify the Infinity gauntlet, a thing which one shots multiversal beings. even if you think Michael and Lucifer Irrespective of that, I'd prefer feats or statements from associated comics to back up any of them having the damage output necessary.are above multiversal, the Gauntlet should logically beat them if it was able to to one shot Eternity. @chaosinc knows a lot about the Tribunal so you could ask him for feats and scans (for scaling off of Scathan)

Moreover, I don't to see any of those attacks/projections being on par with Michael's ultimate release of Demiurgic power.

Why not? even if it was a multiverse busting attacks by Marvel standards the Ultimate Nullifer was able to do the same casually.

I don't see the IG doing anything to either of them, especially given Lucifer's mainstay is willpower, which has manipulated nigh-omnipotent characters.

Eh, in a fight he doesn't use it as much. but that doesn't change the fact it can and has one shot being above multiversal in power.even the ridiculously nerfed current IG was able to briefly hold its own against God Doom.

The Spectre is as powerful, again, as God wants him to be--if God wanted him as more powerful than the gauntlet, he would be.

That doesn't really hold up in my mind via lack of feats on IG's level but its an impossible argument to win anyway.

Furthermore, are you aware of the Spectre's high end feats?

I am, he would still be oneshotted by the Gauntlet.

I don't see how explaining the mechanics behind how the Spectre works is "piss poor logic".

My bad, im proof reading a paper and im slightly distracted so my argument didn't make any senseI meant that there is no way to tell what level Spectre is at right? he doesn't have DBZ powerlevels on display for us the reader to see. so its imposable to argue how powerful he is unless he use his feats, and then you cant say "well hes as powerful as God wants him to be" with no evidence provided.

I don't think either of us are in a position to assume what God ultimately wants, given how contradictory his actions are in the narrative

That was kinda my point, he don't know how powerful Spectre is, so he could be a street leveler when he fought Michael (see what i mean?)
I don't recall him being contradictory?

moreover, you are aware of how God treated Michael throughout Lucifer, right?

I read Lucifer twice at a books a million a year ago, so refresh my memory because i don't remember much besides Michael looks like a badass.

Then again, the fundamentals of the Spectre's power seem new to you, so I'm going to assume you haven't even read the story where they fight.

I know a good bit about Spectre, and i have read their fight.

That's not how it works. If the writer creates something one way, that's how it is, regardless of fan speculation and opinion. This isn't something mutable, however much you would like to debate the semantics; albeit pointlessly.

I don't feel the need to argue this. even if it is genuinely multiversal, Genis-Vell survived a multiversal wide big bang (almost the exact same as Michael's demiurgos explosion) completely unharmed, and yet even with all of his other feats (some of which were omniversal) he isn't a match for the Gauntlet.

figured it was common knowledge, but if you'd like scans, I can provide them, though I find it kind of hypocritical you're demanding scans when you yourself have provided none:

I never once asked for scans...

Here in Lucifer #13, Lucifer slewed Michael, tanking his multiversal blast (i.e., it's a big bang, and we have Carey's clarification of what a multiverse is), creating his infinite universe. Lucifer was at full power here and was not scathed in the slightest. He also, in the next issues, demonstrates, he can will this energy projection to as he pleases--so he has multiversal willpower.

I would like to point out that that blast was a controlled detonation. it literally says so in your scan. he didn't tank the full force if it was controlled?Secondly LT has literally nullifed an item that one shot beings who have no selled multiverse busting attacks. so unless you have something higher than that i don't see why the IG wouldn't stomp Lucifer; much less TLT

Next, we have Lucifer #57, wherein Fenris bloodlusts a weakened Lucifer and turns him on a weakened Michael. The former kills the latter, resulting in another Big Bang, wiping out the World Tree and Yggdrasil. It's assumed by Fenris that Lucifer and Elaine are too weak to withstand this magnitude of energy, which was true in the case of Elaine, as she faltered in the midst of the blast, but Lucifer (who was weakened by God leaving the multiverse, the trip itself to Yggdrasil [which is how Fenris was able to control him] and of course from Michael's attacks) tanked the blast, fortified Elaine's body and redirected the energy into it, with only cosmetic damage resulting.

Are you implying that because he tanked one blast he could tank a barrage of them? even without the the UN Scathan was literally able to disprove of Protege and his judgment allowed LT to absorb him.

so via scaling Scathan would harm the Brothers.

To further evidence this as cosmetic damage, Lucifer was absolutely fine at the beginning of the next issue, which takes place with no time skip:

So did Genis-Vell, he literally took no damage whatsoever, but he still cant compete with the Gauntlet.

You're debating semantics--what's the difference between a similar structured multiverse and universe, each containing infinite mass density?

Can you show me scans that they are indeed infinite in the truest sense of the word? any who there are higher levels of infinity: 1 , 2 3

Pardon? I wasn't referring to Lucifer/Michael BFRing anyone.

Oh.

Lucifer doesn't have access to the Void without God's name.

Ah.

It makes sense, but you're clinging rigidly to a reductionist view of the universe.

Edit:

If i have an infinite house, that house exists in the same number of dimensions that we currently exist in. but then there is a room that has one more dimension than the rest of that infinite house, then i find another room with 2 more dimensions than the rest of that infinite house and so on and so forth, what happens? not all rooms are equal in this house, and by them having more dimensions than another room you can assign a higher number than infinity.

The writers logic works like that, if the multiverse was completely the same through out then it makes sense, but if there are rooms (universes) that are different or larger based on dimensions than you cant evenly split this into a universe than is also a multiverse.

God's a far more reliable source than a title.

The writer is a more reliable source than God no?

That would imply each and every statement is invalid on the basis of being a statement

Statements are just that, statements. that was my point to begin with.

which completely ignores context.

What context?

Now, I find the word of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent bring to be far more reliable than a narrative intentionally using hyperbole, a narrative using omnipotent in a different context than assumed, etc. to be far more reliable.

Based on what? The writer said that Odin was omnipotent, Eternity is omnipotent, heck even Thanos claimed to be with the Gauntlet on. there just statements, the same applies to Michael and his "infinite" power.

Avatar image for deactivated-5a853424245e3
#26 Edited by deactivated-5a853424245e3 (4168 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2:

If by himself you mean the multiverse, then i have already posted feats of him nullifying an above multiversal thing.Also this, take it for what you will: But he apparently controls every multiverse, implying his power is more than just multiversal

So, a few things.

  • I. Why should I take his word for what he does, when you deny Yahweh's? You've created a logical hole where you dismiss statements on the basis that they're statements, so why is one taken over another, if not for context that's been ignored?
  • II. I'm not seeing an "above multiverse attack", so I would appreciate being directed to it.
  • III. The semantics of multiverse differ between Marvel and Vertigo/DC, so applying one to the other in the same way is something of a definitional retreat.

Actually i don't remember any feats from the Living tribunal that shows he has great energy projection. its his (reality warping?) other powers that allow him to easily nullify the Infinity gauntlet, a thing which one shots multiversal beings. even if you think Michael and Lucifer Irrespective of that, I'd prefer feats or statements from associated comics to back up any of them having the damage output necessary.are above multiversal

You're asking for feats or statements that they're above multiversal? By whose standards? They are not by Vertigo's because there is no above multiversal on a conceptual level (barring the Void). As far as Marvel goes, I have seen zero evidence to suggest the structure is implicitly larger (infinity versus infinity), as you seem to imply, hence my usage of "definitional retreat" above.

Why not? even if it was a multiverse busting attacks by Marvel standards the Ultimate Nullifer was able to do the same casually.

I await your demonstration that said attacks can rival an infinite shore of power.

Eh, in a fight he doesn't use it as much. but that doesn't change the fact it can and has one shot being above multiversal in power.even the ridiculously nerfed current IG was able to briefly hold its own against God Doom.

You're relying too much on hierarchy that isn't well-defined or evenly distributed between franchises. Lucifer has "multiversal" willpower, as demonstrated when Lucifer created his own "multiverse" with Michael's Demiurgic power. In what attribute is it going to be able to handle a being who has both feats and statements to resist it?

I am, he would still be oneshotted by the Gauntlet.

What are his high end feats then? Let's compare what you have to what I have, and if our content is the same, let's compare meaning and context to contrast it with IG feats.

meant that there is no way to tell what level Spectre is at right? he doesn't have DBZ powerlevels on display for us the reader to see. so its imposable to argue how powerful he is unless he use his feats, and then you cant say "well hes as powerful as God wants him to be" with no evidence provided.

There is a way--context. Have you read the story where Michael and Spectre fought?

His mechanics (his power is dependent on God) only explain away power inconsistencies, because he has both low and high end feats. We're, after all, talking about a character that is at times, nigh-omnipotent, which is why writing stories for him in the Silver Age was so difficult.

That was kinda my point, he don't know how powerful Spectre is, so he could be a street leveler when he fought Michael (see what i mean?)

A street leveler would have been obliterated on contact, so that doesn't add up.

I don't recall him being contradictory?

God is of course, based on God, thus his motives and actions are of course "mysterious" and don't always add up. We get paradoxes of omnipotence and omniscience along the way, too. Why does God, a being that knows all, cast Lucifer to Hell as part of his "plan", but then flee when Lucifer catches on? Why does God, an omnipotent being, allow himself to be struck by Gabriel? How does he detachment himself in a singular instance from his omniscience? Why does he create a balance of good and evil, yet, revile the good at its highest workings within the Silver City? I can weave all these questions answers, but they're not definitive, because God himself is a mysterious character whose intentions we cannot fully know--such is the mastery of Mike Carey's work taking after the biblical character he based him.

I read Lucifer twice at a books a million a year ago, so refresh my memory because i don't remember much besides Michael looks like a badass.

When God imprisoned Michael and Lucifer, he reveled in pride for his sons, but expressed dissatisfaction in Michael for not being like his brother. In fact, Michael was cast out of the Silver City for wanting his daughter, Elaine, saved from the Mansions of Silence. Michael was also severely wounded by Sandalphon and imprisoned after the war in Heaven--where was God then, and why did he allow his son to suffer for so long? All the evidence suggests that Michael does his best to please his father, but it always falls on deaf ears.

I know a good bit about Spectre, and i have read their fight.

I'll wait for you to verify this for me above before expanding my position.

I never once asked for scans...

But, you're asking me for proof, and what other proof is there?

I would like to point out that that blast was a controlled detonation. it literally says so in your scan. he didn't tank the full force if it was controlled?

You're misunderstanding--it was controlled in the sense that he moved Michael into the Void--hence the usage following their moving through the gateway. This is further evidenced by how in contemporary usage, a controlled detonation is an explosion that's controlled by means of logistics.

Secondly LT has literally nullifed an item that one shot beings who have no selled multiverse busting attacks. so unless you have something higher than that i don't see why the IG wouldn't stomp Lucifer; much less TLT

I have failed to see anything that suggests these attacks, which I have also not seen presented in this thread, are on par with the Demiurgic release of power. It takes more than claiming these things are "multiversal", you have to find a common ground between each franchise's hierarchy in order to compare the power of each attack.

Are you implying that because he tanked one blast he could tank a barrage of them?

I don't see a barrage being anymore impressive than a continuous stream, especially when the latter is infinite in power.

even without the the UN Scathan was literally able to disprove of Protege and his judgment allowed LT to absorb him.

@sirmethos seems to have already addressed this with his post here.

Can you show me scans that they are indeed infinite in the truest sense of the word?

We have:

  • God's word that I posted above.
  • Ellaine Belloc stating Lucifer's totality is infinite.
  • We know the DCU is infinite in a similar way to our universe. I'll expand on this next post, as I have to go briefly.

any who there are higher levels of infinity: 1 , 2 3

I don't see what a bunch of random articles have to do with this, and you didn't answer my question either. If anything, it seems to me like you typed the concept into Google, or Bing, or whatever, and found a couple of sources. Well, what about these articles? What are you trying to say, exactly? Quote the relevant pieces of information, because I'm not going to go searching through a Wikipedia article on infinity to find something to support a claim you're making. Furthermore, you also have to demonstrate whatever concept it is you're trying to prove exists in the V/DCU.

If i have an infinite house, that house exists in the same number of dimensions that we currently exist in. but then there is a room that has one more dimension than the rest of that infinite house, then i find another room with 2 more dimensions than the rest of that infinite house and so on and so forth, what happens? not all rooms are equal in this house, and by them having more dimensions than another room you can assign a higher number than infinity.

You're conflating multiple uses of the word dimension. A dimension, as a construct, can be a universe, a multiverse, etc. It can also be what holds together a universe in many different ways. Whether or not these "rooms" are equal is dependent on their size and mass density. If both are infinite, then the only argument you could really make is that the structure is too weak to contain it, but if that's not the case, it only becomes a question of "what is infinity in application?"

The writers logic works like that, if the multiverse was completely the same through out then it makes sense, but if there are rooms (universes) that are different or larger based on dimensions than you cant evenly split this into a universe than is also a multiverse.

I don't see how that logic follows.

The writer is a more reliable source than God no?

From a narration pov, no.

Statements are just that, statements. that was my point to begin with.

Your point ignores context--this is not how literature is analyzed.

What context?

There's a context to each of the statements you brought up, which I touched on already. If you need clarification on any partciular one, please specify.

Based on what? The writer said that Odin was omnipotent, Eternity is omnipotent, heck even Thanos claimed to be with the Gauntlet on. there just statements, the same applies to Michael and his "infinite" power.

The "writer" didn't say anything. By that logic, every single thing, including character statements, are words of the writer. These are narrative statements, and sometimes their meanings are either unclear or hyperbolic (context will give us an indication of which). Moreover, who is the narrative from an in-universe perspective? Are they reliable? Is it first or third person? Why?

Avatar image for firsthunter
#27 Posted by FirstHunter (3460 posts) - - Show Bio

@grayhold said:

Aren't Michael and Lucifer just universal on grand power scale?

Above that actually.

Avatar image for grayhold
#28 Posted by Grayhold (122 posts) - - Show Bio

@grayhold said:

Aren't Michael and Lucifer just universal on grand power scale?

Above that actually.

Feat-wise they haven't shown to be above.

Unless they got some hidden multiversal feats.

Avatar image for firsthunter
#29 Edited by FirstHunter (3460 posts) - - Show Bio

@grayhold said:
@firsthunter said:
@grayhold said:

Aren't Michael and Lucifer just universal on grand power scale?

Above that actually.

Feat-wise they haven't shown to be above.

Unless they got some hidden multiversal feats.

The feats aren't hidden. It's just likely you don't know about them. Then again, I'm not a Lucifer/Micheal Expert.

There's also scaling.

If the angels were really just Universal then even Composite Odin would give them a good fight.

Avatar image for grayhold
#30 Posted by Grayhold (122 posts) - - Show Bio

@grayhold said:
@firsthunter said:
@grayhold said:

Aren't Michael and Lucifer just universal on grand power scale?

Above that actually.

Feat-wise they haven't shown to be above.

Unless they got some hidden multiversal feats.

The feats aren't hidden. It's just likely you don't know about them. Then again, I'm not a Lucifer/Micheal Expert.

There's also scaling.

If the angels were really just Universal then even Composite Odin would give them a good fight.

I have read both Lucifer's runs, and his appearances in Sandman, so far he hasn't shown power beyond universal scale.

Avatar image for firsthunter
#31 Edited by FirstHunter (3460 posts) - - Show Bio

@grayhold said:
@firsthunter said:
@grayhold said:
@firsthunter said:
@grayhold said:

Aren't Michael and Lucifer just universal on grand power scale?

Above that actually.

Feat-wise they haven't shown to be above.

Unless they got some hidden multiversal feats.

The feats aren't hidden. It's just likely you don't know about them. Then again, I'm not a Lucifer/Micheal Expert.

There's also scaling.

If the angels were really just Universal then even Composite Odin would give them a good fight.

I have read both Lucifer's runs, and his appearances in Sandman, so far he hasn't shown power beyond universal scale.

What about Micheal stomping Corrigan Spectre?

Also debunk this. I would really love for Lucifer and Micheal to be only Universal. Then Composite Odin would have a chance at beating them.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/mr-mxyzptlk-bat-mite-mad-jim-jaspers-vs-lucifer-mo-737936/?page=2

I'll also tag some Lucifer/Micheal Fans

@van_cere@cruelestashley@morningdawn12@princeleif

Avatar image for deactivated-5a853424245e3
#32 Posted by deactivated-5a853424245e3 (4168 posts) - - Show Bio

@grayhold said:
@firsthunter said:
@grayhold said:
@firsthunter said:
@grayhold said:

Aren't Michael and Lucifer just universal on grand power scale?

Above that actually.

Feat-wise they haven't shown to be above.

Unless they got some hidden multiversal feats.

The feats aren't hidden. It's just likely you don't know about them. Then again, I'm not a Lucifer/Micheal Expert.

There's also scaling.

If the angels were really just Universal then even Composite Odin would give them a good fight.

I have read both Lucifer's runs, and his appearances in Sandman, so far he hasn't shown power beyond universal scale.

What about Micheal stomping Corrigan Spectre?

Also debunk this. I would really love for Lucifer and Micheal to be only Universal. Then Composite Odin would have a chance at beating them.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/mr-mxyzptlk-bat-mite-mad-jim-jaspers-vs-lucifer-mo-737936/?page=2

I'll also tag some Lucifer/Micheal Fans

@cruelestashley

Read my above argument in this very thread--there is no conceptual difference in the V/DCU between a universe and multiverse.

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
#33 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16272 posts) - - Show Bio

Even Mxy has feats on the multiversal scale and, barring World's Funnest, he's pretty substantially beneath Lucifer.

Avatar image for grayhold
#34 Edited by Grayhold (122 posts) - - Show Bio

@firsthunter:

What about Micheal stomping Corrigan Spectre?

You mean the Spectre, who doesn't have multiversal feats as well, not really impressive, considering that the most powerful versions of Spectre like Unbound Spectre(Day of Vengeance), whose best destructive feat is destroying a universe inside Dr. Fate's helmet, which was created by Nabu. And Corrigan Spectre is below Unbound Spectre powerwise/featwise. Even if we scale Michael/Lucifer on Sandman/Dream, they would still be in universal power scale.

Also debunk this. I would really love for Lucifer and Micheal to be only Universal. Then Composite Odin would have a chance at beating them.

The best feat Lucifer has is creating his "creation" using his and Michael's power, which was outright stated by writer to be a universe, even in current Lucifer's run, Lucifer stated that it was universe. If you read current Lucifer's series, you would see that neither Ellaine nor the Presence are "the gods", but "a gods", no different than egyptian gods like Thoth. And Presence has not even created DC universe, it was created by the Overvoid, and then it became multiverse because of Krona(Crisis on Infinite Earths/Pre-52/Pre-Crisis) or a Monitor(Multiversity/New-52).

Avatar image for grayhold
#35 Posted by Grayhold (122 posts) - - Show Bio

Even Mxy has feats on the multiversal scale and, barring World's Funnest, he's pretty substantially beneath Lucifer.

World's Funnest is not cannon.

Avatar image for firsthunter
#36 Edited by FirstHunter (3460 posts) - - Show Bio

@grayhold:

I never claimed Corrigan Spectre was Multiversal, he does have some Universal feats however.

Also Dream stomped Ultimiator who was above all 5D Imps who are above Universal.

Avatar image for grayhold
#37 Posted by Grayhold (122 posts) - - Show Bio

@grayhold:

I never claimed Corrigan Spectre was Multiversal, he does have some Universal feats however.

Only Universal, still doesn't put Michael/Lucifer above Universal category.

Avatar image for firsthunter
#38 Edited by FirstHunter (3460 posts) - - Show Bio

@grayhold said:
@firsthunter said:

@grayhold:

I never claimed Corrigan Spectre was Multiversal, he does have some Universal feats however.

Only Universal, still doesn't put Michael/Lucifer above Universal category.

If Micheal stomped a being who has Universal feats that would put him above Universal.

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
#39 Edited by WollfMyth209 (16272 posts) - - Show Bio

@grayhold: Which is why I said barring World's Funnest, as in, I'm not counting that. Mxy is still demonstrating multiversal level power, and is inferior to the Endless and potentially an unchained Spectre, which are relative gnats compared to Michael or Lucifer(besides possibly Death).

Avatar image for grayhold
#40 Posted by Grayhold (122 posts) - - Show Bio

@grayhold said:
@firsthunter said:

@grayhold:

I never claimed Corrigan Spectre was Multiversal, he does have some Universal feats however.

Only Universal, still doesn't put Michael/Lucifer above Universal category.

If Micheal stomped a being who has Universal feats that would put him above Universal.

Nope, it would put him in the same category "universal", but above the said being in the same category "universal".

@grayhold: Which is why I said barring World's Funnest, as in, I'm not counting that. Mxy is still demonstrating multiversal level power, and is inferior to the Endless and potentially an unchained Spectre, which are relative gnats compared to Michael or Lucifer.

Mxy doesn't have cannon multiversal feats, all of his multiversal feats are in non-canon comics(you can check that, if you want). Mxy already got wrecked by Unbound Spectre, whose best destructive feat was destroying a universe inside Dr. Fate's helmet. They maybe gnuts to Michael/Lucifer, but still, it doesn't put Archangels above "universal" category.

Avatar image for deactivated-5a853424245e3
#41 Edited by deactivated-5a853424245e3 (4168 posts) - - Show Bio

@grayhold said:

@firsthunter:

The best feat Lucifer has is creating his "creation" using his and Michael's power, which was outright stated by writer to be a universe, even in current Lucifer's run, Lucifer stated that it was universe. If you read current Lucifer's series, you would see that neither Ellaine nor the Presence are "the gods", but "a gods", no different than egyptian gods like Thoth. And Presence has not even created DC universe, it was created by the Overvoid, and then it became multiverse because of Krona(Crisis on Infinite Earths/Pre-52/Pre-Crisis) or a Monitor(Multiversity/New-52).

Ugh, so much wrong with this.

  • I. That's not what Mike Carey said, read the tweets I posted above about how he uses the terms universe and multiverse interchangeably.
  • II. No, Elaine said she tried to socialize with the other "gods", gods that are neither omnipotent nor omnipresent as she is--the only thing that comes into question is her omniscience, but we don't know if she was speaking figuratively or literally yet. Y'see, Elaine is the God, the rest of them all came about after Yahweh sent Lucifer and Michael to create the multiverse--typically in the same way Yahweh did, through people believing in them. Basically, while Yahweh and Elaine may be Gods, they are also gods, which is where I think the confusion comes from.
  • III. The "Overvoid" did not create the DCU, Michael, Lucifer and to a lesser extent, Gabriel did.
Avatar image for firsthunter
#42 Posted by FirstHunter (3460 posts) - - Show Bio

@grayhold said:
@firsthunter said:
@grayhold said:
@firsthunter said:

@grayhold:

I never claimed Corrigan Spectre was Multiversal, he does have some Universal feats however.

Only Universal, still doesn't put Michael/Lucifer above Universal category.

If Micheal stomped a being who has Universal feats that would put him above Universal.

Nope, it would put him in the same category "universal", but above the said being in the same category "universal".

Universal+ basically.

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
#43 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16272 posts) - - Show Bio

@grayhold: Mxy doesn't have cannon multiversal feats, all of his multiversal feats are in non-canon comics(you can check that, if you want).

Yes, he does. Emperor Joker, someone with 99% of Mxy's power was going to destroy the multiverse and Mxy himself has toyed around with multiverses in the past. World's Funnest is simply where he erradicates every possible universe and multiverse in existance, but I don't count that.

Mxy already got wrecked by Unbound Spectre,

A great feat for Spectre.

whose best destructive feat was destroying a universe inside Dr. Fate's helmet.

He honestly has better ones than that, and he did so fairly casually so "universal" isn't his upper limit or anything. In fact, Spectre can stomp universal-tier characters at his peak.

They maybe gnuts to Michael/Lucifer, but still, it doesn't put Archangels above "universal" category.

If they're far and away superior to universal+ beings, they are above the universal category. I get the feeling you're trolling.

Avatar image for deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f
#44 Posted by deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f (6669 posts) - - Show Bio

@cruelestashley: Before we continue our text walls; Do you think Lucifer and Michael can be beaten in the first place?

Avatar image for firsthunter
#45 Posted by FirstHunter (3460 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209:

Mxy himself has toyed around with multiverses in the past.

Scans?

Avatar image for krleavenger
#46 Posted by KrleAvenger (26270 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think Scathan and Tiamut are as powerful as people make them out to be. That being said, Team Marvel should win with minor difficulty without jobbing.

Avatar image for grayhold
#47 Posted by Grayhold (122 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209:

Yes, he does. Emperor Joker, someone with 99% of Mxy's power was going to destroy the multiverse and Mxy himself has toyed around with multiverses in the past. World's Funnest is simply where he erradicates every possible universe and multiverse in existance, but I don't count that.

Mxy toying with multiverse was in non-cannon Supergirl comic. As for Emperor Joker, he only showed universal power/feats, so i'll go with that, and unless there is proof/feats that back up that Emperor Joker statement that he can do multiversal things(which there aren't).

A great feat for Spectre.

Indeed.

He honestly has better ones than that, and he did so fairly casually so "universal" isn't his upper limit or anything. In fact, Spectre can stomp universal-tier characters at his peak.

He hasn't above universal feats, so speculating is pointless. And Unbound Spectre, one of the most powerful versions of him who busted universe, was struggling very hard against universal beings like Nabu, who wasn't even trying to fight back that much and defeat Spectre, and Wizard Shazam, who was actually at his weakest and by his own words "could barely stand/walk", yet gave Unbound Spectre a heck of fight, and was actually gonna win, if not the that little tricky draining thing.

If they're far and away superior to universal+ beings, they are above the universal category.

Unless they feats above that universal category, then they would be, but they didn't, they just are above and have defeated universal beings, which puts them in the same category but above them. Also by logic of statement, it is like saying Molecule Man defeated Beyonder, who is multiversal, so now Molecule Man is megaversal(though he isn't).

I get the feeling you're trolling.

Nope.

@grayhold said:
@firsthunter said:
@grayhold said:
@firsthunter said:

@grayhold:

I never claimed Corrigan Spectre was Multiversal, he does have some Universal feats however.

Only Universal, still doesn't put Michael/Lucifer above Universal category.

If Micheal stomped a being who has Universal feats that would put him above Universal.

Nope, it would put him in the same category "universal", but above the said being in the same category "universal".

Universal+ basically.

Nope. He would Universal+, if he shows Universal+ power, or defeats someone on that category.

So far he has a defeated a universe buster, so it puts Lucifer in the same power category, but above the one he defeated.

To make it simpler i'll give you an example: Molecule Man(pre-last secret wars) defeated Beyonder, whose power is multiversal, that doesn't put Molecule Man above multiversal, but just on the same multiversal scale, but above Beyonder.

Avatar image for deactivated-5a853424245e3
#48 Edited by deactivated-5a853424245e3 (4168 posts) - - Show Bio

@jardinain2 said:

@cruelestashley: Before we continue our text walls; Do you think Lucifer and Michael can be beaten in the first place?

As a team? Or individually?

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
#49 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16272 posts) - - Show Bio

@firsthunter:

No Caption Provided

I don't think there was ever a statement suggesting Supergirl's Cosmic Adventure is non-canon, but we also know Emperor Joker can bust the multiverse, so it doesn't matter.

Avatar image for grayhold
#50 Edited by Grayhold (122 posts) - - Show Bio

@cruelestashley:

  • I. That's not what Mike Carey said, read the tweets I posted above about how he uses the terms universe and multiverse interchangeably.

He said that for him, multiverse is a universe with many/infinite dimensions, which is just basic universe. So in short in his view Multiverse = A universe + Many/Infinite Dimensions.

  • II. No, Elaine said she tried to socialize with the other "gods", gods that are neither omnipotent nor omnipresent as she is--the only thing that comes into question is her omniscience, but we don't know if she was speaking figuratively or literally yet. Y'see, Elaine is the God, the rest of them all came about after Yahweh sent Lucifer and Michael to create the multiverse--typically in the same way Yahweh did, through people believing in them. Basically, while Yahweh and Elaine may be Gods, they are also gods, which is where I think the confusion comes from.

The God is the being that is omnipotent, Neither Ellaine nor Presence are that, they are just a gods, and if we go deeper, the fact is Presence didn't even create DC, it was created by higher being(which have affected him). They are just nigh-omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent, just like regular gods like Thoth.

Lucifer and Michael didn't create multiverse, in fact it was created by Overvoid, just read Multiversity, or Crisis on Infinite Earths, or History of DC Universe, or any other book recaping the story of the universe, the details are in there, in fact DC was not even a multiverse, the Overvoid originally created a universe, then it became multiverse because of Krona or Monitor(depending on continuity).

  • III. The "Overvoid" did not create the DCU, Michael, Lucifer and to a lesser extent, Gabriel did.

Multiversity/Crisis on Infinite Earth/History of DC Universe/and so on as well as Grant Morrison dissagree with you.