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#1 Edited by juiceboks (24549 posts) - - Show Bio

In this corner we have the Spider-Man of Tomorrow Miguel O'Hara.

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Represented by yours truly.

And in the opposite corner we have the Japanese Golden Boy of Capcom himself Ryu.

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Represented by @cmcmcmcm

The fight will take place in the uninhabited streets of Republic City.

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Battle is won via Incap/K.O/Death.

Standard morals and gear(what little they have)

They meet 20 ft away from each other under the lighted kiosk.

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#2 Posted by Jestersmiles (9823 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for votes xD

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#4 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

if you didn't take the challenge @juiceboks, I was about to. plus I am pleased to see you using Spidey 2099. I had a similar matchup in a thread with @iragexcudder. have fun! and please tag for votes.......

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#5 Posted by Iragexcudder (9461 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1: I shall read this thoroughly! And I'm reading your CAV right now brotha

Tag 4 votes

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#6 Edited by juiceboks (24549 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by Ermac_Wins_via_Fatality (82 posts) - - Show Bio

This is gonna be good...

Tag4votes.

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#8 Posted by Iragexcudder (9461 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Edited by cmcmcmcm (849 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: looks good bro, I will get a post up after work today if you do not get one up before that.

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#10 Edited by cmcmcmcm (849 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: Alright lets get some things about Ryu out of the way.

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Ryu is a master martial artist of a martial art style called Ansatsuken. This style known as the "Assassination Fist". This is not a real world martial art, but rather a custom fighting style that has shown its superiority over every other Martial Art in the world. Ryu loves and fights in the world where Martial Artist are superhuman in stats, and they have energy attacks. Ryu not only competes in this world, but is a multi time Champion of the world Street Fighter tournaments.

Ryu as one of the top fighters in the world has many great abilities. Including Super strength in the 20+ ton area.

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Here he lifts a huge Boulder and benches it for hours.

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Here he smashes to rubble another huge Boulder Akuma was sitting on.

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Here he craters the earth itself with energy amp strikes.

With this strength, I see no reason for Spidey 2099 to shrug off Ryu's blows, or in turn over power Ryu. His durability is not too shabby either.

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This is Balrog. He can decimate punching bags of cinder blocks for fun, and one shot Vans.

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Ryu however tanks his blows in a extended fight.

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Sagat can destroy solid wooden logs, stone statues, and crater solid stone with his blows. Yet Ryu again tanks this with little damage in multiple fights against Sagat.

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Akuma is stronger than Ryu. Ryu fights him on a even level for a time.

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One of the best feats is Akuma using a special attack to punch his fist through Ryu. Akuma then drops a large building busting energy attack behind Ryu body. After all this, Ryu gets free, and continues to fight.

I do not see Spidey easily harming Ryu, and what major damage sustain will not drop Ryu either.

Speed is the only thing in Spiderman's corner. As a Spider he is easy Bullet Speed. However Ryu is no slow.

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Adon is stated as an very fast fighter, and he punches so fast to leave multiple after images. Ryu easily out speeds Adon and blocks his attacks.

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Rufus does the same. Throwing After image punches, and Ryu blocks them all easy.

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Gen is also really fast. Able to catch multiple throwing stars at one time not iknowing they were thrown at him. Able to casually bullet dodge rooms full of gunmen.

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Able to throw tons of after image speed pressure point attacks.

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Yet Ryu counter this super fast attack with blocks, as well counters Gen's speed over all in a stale mate fight.

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Akuma is so fast he disappears in front of the eyes of a younger Ryu (who was still world champion at this time) and ken. He also moved so fast that Ken could barely register him moving at all when ken tried to attack Akuma from the back. Fact is Akuma is insane fast.

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Insane Fast. But Ryu is fully able to keep up with Akuma after some training.

There is no doubt Ryu is at least on par with characters like Captain America or Daredevil in speed. Most Marvel characters cannot throw punches as after images, or move so fast that they make fwoosh sounds, disappearing in front of bullet timers. So while Spidey has a edge in speed, its not a game breaker by any means.

Another point to add to speed is the fact Ryu is super skilled, and Spider 2099 has no real shown or feats of martial arts savy. In short the skill of Ryu will further help him in this fight to avoid hits and dish out attacks.

Next post I will get into counters to your own, and point out the real strength of Ryu here. His skill, and Hadou abilities.

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#11 Posted by dajhonmccloud (2996 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me.

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#12 Posted by cmcmcmcm (849 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Edited by juiceboks (24549 posts) - - Show Bio

@cmcmcmcm

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Miguel is from Earth 928 which takes place almost a century prior to the 616 universe. Much like Peter..he was given the proportionate strength, speed, and agility of a spider through a freak science accident, however that's where the similarities stop. Where Miguel doesn't have a Spider Sense, he instead has enhanced senses including accelerated vision and the capacity to sense subtle changes in air pressure to avoid attacks. He also has talons on his hands and feet, along with fangs to administer spider venom and the ability to shoot organic webbing from his wrists.

Ryu as one of the top fighters in the world has many great abilities. Including Super strength in the 20+ ton area.

Not sure if these feats speak of 20+ton strength. That boulder lifting feat is hard to quantify without knowing the composition of the rock(and even still it'd be a shaky guesstimate at best), and looks to me as more of a 10 ton feat if anything as that boulder is about the size of a small car. Certainly not more than 20 tons or anything close to that..

The cratering striking feats are nice, but since as you said Ryu amps his striking power with energy then they shouldn't speak about his raw strength. Still, I don't believe any of them makes Ryu as strong as Miguel.

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Catches and lifts a speeding car
Catches and lifts a speeding car
Parries and blocks blows from Thor 2099, who's strong enough to nonchalantly throw Miguel a city block away through a skyscraper
Parries and blocks blows from Thor 2099, who's strong enough to nonchalantly throw Miguel a city block away through a skyscraper

-Here he manages to stagger Daemos(son of Solus) with punches intent on only getting his attention. It's important to note that Daemos had just absorbed all the power from the six-armed Peter of the What If? universe, whom he was already capable of overpowering with ease.

In a contest of might, I believe Miguel holds the advantage. He should be able to tank his hits for the most part, especially with his own superhuman durability.

Tanks getting flown through multiple walls by Thor 2099 without any sign of injury
Tanks getting flown through multiple walls by Thor 2099 without any sign of injury

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-tanks getting thrown at least a block away through a skyscraper and is mostly unharmed.

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-Tanks getting knocked out of the skyscraper by Mjolnir thrown by Thor 2099, and tanks not only the subsequent hammer drop once he lands but also the surrounding building collapsing on him. He's dazed from all that, but gets back up shortly after seeing Punisher 2099.

Now..blunt force is a great source of damage but it's really the only type that Ryu can inflict on Miguel. Miguel on the other hand has two other types I believe will be most effective against Ryu. Cutting and poison. Miguel's claws are sharp enough to rend steel..

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..and cause Venom to scream out in pain(same Brock that can tank point blank gunfire and spit out bullets with a smile)

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And his venom is potent enough to affect Roman 2099 despite his atlantean strength(comparable to Miguel himself) and healing factor which makes him immune to knockout gas and other chemicals..

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Frankly, Ryu isn't tanking either of these types of attacks. He might be able to get away with glancing slashes, but any clean hits Miguel gets off will be quite debilitating. The venom on the otherhand..should bring him to his knees on contact unless of course he has some built up resistance to poison I don't know of. And even he does..as we've seen with Roman it won't necessarily protect him.

Speed is the only thing in Spiderman's corner. As a Spider he is easy Bullet Speed. However Ryu is no slow.

I agree Ryu isn't slow by any means..but I don't believe after-images are a good representation of speed. For one..they're for the most part unquantifiable and not necessarily indicative of speed all the time. They could even be considered "eye-tricks" depending on what's making the afterimage. At best I'd say it proves Gen and other such characters can move as blurs to the human eye but that's not necessarily foreign to even Marvel comic book characters. Miguel on the otherhand has more clear speed feats such as..

Dodging point-blank pistol fire
Dodging point-blank pistol fire
Ducking under point-blank pistol fire while while half-way conscious.
Ducking under point-blank pistol fire while while half-way conscious.
Flips over point-blank laserfire from Mac Gargan with a new and improved suit of armor
Flips over point-blank laserfire from Mac Gargan with a new and improved suit of armor
Displays the speed and reaction time to web away a pistol before the bullet can leave the chamber.
Displays the speed and reaction time to web away a pistol before the bullet can leave the chamber.

While Miguel doesn't have a large speed advantage over Ryu, it's still noticeable and most certainly significant.

Another point to add to speed is the fact Ryu is super skilled, and Spider 2099 has no real shown or feats of martial arts savy. In short the skill of Ryu will further help him in this fight to avoid hits and dish out attacks.

There's no doubt Ryu is more skilled, but at the same time I believe Miguel's spider-agility and mobility provided by his webbing will make it just as hard for Ryu to tag him with any attacks. A city-setting with lots of buildings to web onto and telephone wires to swing from will allow Miguel to make full use of these advantages.

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#15 Posted by Jacthripper (14431 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#16 Posted by okayalright_44 (1524 posts) - - Show Bio

Very nice.

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#17 Edited by cmcmcmcm (849 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks:

Not sure if these feats speak of 20+ton strength. That boulder lifting feat is hard to quantify without knowing the composition of the rock(and even still it'd be a shaky guesstimate at best), and looks to me as more of a 10 ton feat if anything as that boulder is about the size of a small car. Certainly not more than 20 tons or anything close to that.

That boulder is easily over 10 feet in height, and 8 feet in width. Its all solid rock of a Himalaya mountain. In no way are you going to say its the size of a small car. I have worked as a heavy equipment operator, and I know for a fact a solid rock of any rock type would barely move with my 60 ton D7 Bulldozer if its the size of what Ryu benched man. 20 tons is the lowest estimate. It could very well be near 100 tons truthfully depending on the material. Either way its impressive and Ryu benched it long enough for Oro sitting on top of that rock to get tired.

The cratering striking feats are nice, but since as you said Ryu amps his striking power with energy then they shouldn't speak about his raw strength. Still, I don't believe any of them makes Ryu as strong as Miguel.

Unless you can show Miguel cratering the earth with punches, or shattering 6 foot by 6 foot boulders into rubble with his fist, then Ryu is stronger IMO. You showed feats like stopping a 1 ton car speeding. Not impressive to the force to punch to rubble an solid stone that is larger than yourself with a few punches.

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Seriously, solid stone, concrete, rock >>>>> car any day.

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Ryu pummels this with a few blows.

Heck his Shoryuken technique is a special move that can plow up a water fall for hundreds of feet with no loss to momentum.

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And here Ryu Shoryuken knocks around a giant monster where military grade missiles fail to do anything to it.

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Not seeing Spidey 2099 shrugging these off.

In a contest of might, I believe Miguel holds the advantage. He should be able to tank his hits for the most part, especially with his own superhuman durability.

While yes, Spider Man by the durability feats can tank the blows for a bit, its not like these attacks will be ignored or not have a affect. Each blow will be felt and slow Miguel down.

Also while you showed some great durability feats there, nothing there surpasses the durability of late game Ryu's own.

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Add to this the pain tolerance. Ryu shown here has everything from his bones broken, to a hole in his chest, and yet still fights on par with Akuma. Watch the video. Ryu has his hand, ribs, and back messed up bad. Then Akuma uses the Raging Demon to attack Ryu's soul, which Ryu survives, but Akuma still ends the move with his large fist through Ryu's chest. Then Akuma drops a large building busting energy blast behind Ryu with Akuma's fist still through Ryu's chest. Ryu not only blows Akuma back, but gets back into a fist fight with Akuma.

Heck here is some video of Akuma.

Street Fighter 3

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Cuts Mountain.

Street Fighter 3rd Strike.

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Akuma happily withstands the pressure of the Pacific sea floor and then kicks a ship from sea floor to the sea surface.

Super Street Fighter 4

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Akuma blows up a large part of a forest with a single strike that can be seen from space.

Street Fighter 2 Alpha.

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Akuma destroys Akuma Island with a blow. Yet Ryu fought him nearly even before Akuma destroyed the Island.

Ryu fights this uber power house that is Akuma without going Dark Ryu many times, and survives with his durability. Your Spidey 2099 surviving Thor 2099 feats are good, but surviving Akuma's is better.

That is the kind of durability and pain tolerance Miguel is up against.

Now..blunt force is a great source of damage but it's really the only type that Ryu can inflict on Miguel. Miguel on the other hand has two other types I believe will be most effective against Ryu. Cutting and poison. Miguel's claws are sharp enough to rend steel..

..and cause Venom to scream out in pain(same Brock that can tank point blank gunfire and spit out bullets with a smile)

And his venom is potent enough to affect Roman 2099 despite his atlantean strength(comparable to Miguel himself) and healing factor which makes him immune to knockout gas and other chemicals..

Frankly, Ryu isn't tanking either of these types of attacks. He might be able to get away with glancing slashes, but any clean hits Miguel gets off will be quite debilitating. The venom on the otherhand..should bring him to his knees on contact unless of course he has some built up resistance to poison I don't know of. And even he does..as we've seen with Roman it won't necessarily protect him.

I agree with this for the most part. The claws will have to be actively avoided like all blades weapons Ryu has fought against. Ryu would think would actively dodge or counter attack any attempt to bite him with what looks to be a wicked set of fangs. Truth is however, due to Ryus speed, and skill I do not see either of these being pulled off easy.

I agree Ryu isn't slow by any means..but I don't believe after-images are a good representation of speed. For one..they're for the most part unquantifiable and not necessarily indicative of speed all the time. They could even be considered "eye-tricks" depending on what's making the afterimage. At best I'd say it proves Gen and other such characters can move as blurs to the human eye but that's not necessarily foreign to even Marvel comic book characters. Miguel on the otherhand has more clear speed feats such as..

While Miguel doesn't have a large speed advantage over Ryu, it's still noticeable and most certainly significant.

I think its funny how you try to down some of the speed feats for Street Fighter, but take your own as better showings.

Example

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All these feats are simple aim dodging. I can show the exact feats here.

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4 Scans of Gen, Chun Li, and Cammy all dodging full auto gun fire up close. Really no different than your scans above.

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Even this feat is questionable. Not only does this weapon not function like a gun, shoots like a gun, or even looks like a gun. There is two panels of the energy charging to fire it looks like. The weapon itself shoots what seems a beam of energy. The weapon looks like no gun I ever seen, it looks like a hold out blaster from Star Wars honestly.

None of your feats can be seen any faster than the feats I just showed above. Heck even the suppose blur feats which are not impressive show Street fighters like Chun Li, Rufus, Adon, Gen, and more landing 5-7 attacks at the same instant.

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Several examples of 7 hit combos with a split second move.

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This move alone is labeled as 21 hit combo.

I have also shown real speed feats with Akuma.

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All these feats of Akuma using bursts of super speed in his Ahura Senku technique is real speed feats. Blitzing and dodging the already super human street fighters, including a younger Ryu with Ken. Yet Ryu after training some more had matched Akuma even with this technique. No way is Miguel speed going to matter any more than Akuma's own speed dodging or blitzing attacks he tries to pull on Ryu.

In no way do I see Spidey 2099 being much faster if at all to Ryu.

There's no doubt Ryu is more skilled, but at the same time I believe Miguel's spider-agility and mobility provided by his webbing will make it just as hard for Ryu to tag him with any attacks. A city-setting with lots of buildings to web onto and telephone wires to swing from will allow Miguel to make full use of these advantages.

Webbing may seem useful, until Ryu pulls out the Hadoukens. Energy base attacks that hit harder than Ryus chi amped punches.

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Both of these Hadoukens from the comics and game show a energy force that can force back the rushing current of a river, and even waterfall. Im not sure if you understand the amount of force needed to force back the kinetic energy of a rushing current, but it is insane force of momentum and energy to do such.

If Ryu's own Hadoukens can match Akuma's own Gou Hadou, then we can see just how powerful that is.

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Akuma's own Gou Hadous are massive building busting. This is a fortified building, totally blown in by the force of these energy attacks. Ryu own Hadoukens are shown to match and even cancel out the Gou Hadous.

These range attacks will harm Spidey alot, and provide critical range ability which Ryu can throw many times around with no problem.

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#18 Edited by cmcmcmcm (849 posts) - - Show Bio

Post fixed. :)

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#19 Edited by juiceboks (24549 posts) - - Show Bio

@cmcmcmcm

That boulder is easily over 10 feet in height, and 8 feet in width. Its all solid rock of a Himalaya mountain. In no way are you going to say its the size of a small car. I have worked as a heavy equipment operator, and I know for a fact a solid rock of any rock type would barely move with my 60 ton D7 Bulldozer if its the size of what Ryu benched man. 20 tons is the lowest estimate. It could very well be near 100 tons truthfully depending on the material. Either way its impressive and Ryu benched it long enough for Oro sitting on top of that rock to get tired.

Where are you getting these exact measurements from? I suppose small-car sized was a low estimate. SUV-sized seems more appropriate. I can't really assess the validity of your statement based on personal experience..since I don't you personally let alone seen you work. I can just use my own knowledge of geology to guess what that boulder could weigh. And to me..anything greater than 20 tons is not fair, let alone 60.

Unless you can show Miguel cratering the earth with punches, or shattering 6 foot by 6 foot boulders into rubble with his fist, then Ryu is stronger IMO. You showed feats like stopping a 1 ton car speeding. Not impressive to the force to punch to rubble an solid stone that is larger than yourself with a few punches.

I think Miguel parrying blows from Thor 2099 and staggering Daemos while holding back (two characters stronger than Ryu) are comparable to Ryu's own striking feats. Miguel has also K.Oed the mutant Travesty after fighting him for a couple seconds.

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Travesty was strong to crater concrete just by walking and create mini-earthquakes by slamming his fists into the ground. It's also important to reiterate the point that Miguel can't use chi to amp his strikes like Ryu can..comparing his striking feats is like comparing Iron Fist's to Spider-Man's. Ryu might hit harder, but that doesn't mean he's stronger.

Also..is Tatsunoko vs. Capcom even canon to the SF universe? Alex also had a cutscene where he sliced apart a missile with the air from a punch and I don't recall him doing anything like that in SF 3.

Also while you showed some great durability feats there, nothing there surpasses the durability of late game Ryu's own.

See, this is what bothers me about debating for Ryu and other SF characters like him. Akuma is supposed to be this guy that can oneshot islands, kick sunken ships from the bottom of the sea to the surface(which is a distance of about 1 and a half miles and would require an obscene amount of force relative to performing the feat above sea level), and clear a whole forest with one blow. These are Grey Hulk level feats..and Ryu has absolutely nothing comparable to them. The idea that Base Ryu can match Akuma in a duel is outright ridiculous, and would require Akuma to hold back considerably to not oneshot him. Which is exactly what he did in Street Fighter Alpha 2. Akuma sensed the Satsui no Hado power in Ryu and wanted to test his abilities. Ryu held his own against Akuma when he was clearly holding back anything close to his full base power. Base Ryu=/=Base Akuma.

Also..when we agreed on this matchup the original stipulation was that UDON comic feats and canon game feats were allowed. Manga feats(even those based off the games) aren't allowed.

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Moving on..

I think its funny how you try to down some of the speed feats for Street Fighter, but take your own as better showings.

Huh? Creating afterimages is a common speed trope in multiple forms of fiction including manga and manga-inspired comics. They generally show "fast-paced" movement, but exactly how fast is usually unclear. Hell even Marvel does it..

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It's clear that Gabrielle Dell'Otto meant for James and Laura to be moving at fast speeds..but the exact speed is hard to tell and anyone's guess. Thus making the feat unquantifiable and hard to compare to more clear one's like Miguel's bullet-timing and laser-dodging one's. Ryu creating afterimages and reacting to characters who can just isn't as impressive IMO. And while we're on the subject of Ryu reacting to fast characters..

All these feats of Akuma using bursts of super speed in his Ahura Senku technique is real speed feats. Blitzing and dodging the already super human street fighters, including a younger Ryu with Ken. Yet Ryu after training some more had matched Akuma even with this technique. No way is Miguel speed going to matter any more than Akuma's own speed dodging or blitzing attacks he tries to pull on Ryu.

You know what let's examine their fight in the UDON comics shall we?

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So what we have here is Akuma goading Ryu into tapping into the Satsui no Hado, and of course Ryu refuses. And because of this, Akuma treats Ryu like a child and beats him quite handily. It's only after this when Ryu taps into the Satsui No Hado and becomes Dark Ryu when he begins to give him a run for his money. But I'd hardly consider Base Ryu fighting Akuma on even ground, in fact I'd hardly consider Akuma even trying to beat Base Ryu. Just like in Street FIghter 2 Alpha, Akuma clearly only wanted Ryu to turn into Dark Ryu so he could give him a good fight and not hold back.

Both of these Hadoukens from the comics and game show a energy force that can force back the rushing current of a river, and even waterfall. Im not sure if you understand the amount of force needed to force back the kinetic energy of a rushing current, but it is insane force of momentum and energy to do such.

I know full well how powerful the Hadoken can be, and I don't doubt that Miguel would take a good amount of damage if it were to land. What I do doubt is Ryu's ability to tag Miguel with one. I've already shown how Miguel's speed and Spider-agility makes dodging fast projectiles such as bullets and lasers a cakewalk..

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..to the point where he can matrix automatic gunfire like it's not even there. Combined with the added mobility his web-swinging gives him, I don't see him having too much trouble dodging hadokens if he's making a conscious effort to do so. Especially since Ryu takes a very unique stance and motion telegraphing the move before it's launched. Even if he does get tagged(not completely ruling out the possibility of this happening) he's more than durable enough to power through the pain.

Now Ryu on the otherhand..can't afford to get bitten even once since his resistance to poison is almost nonexistent. I'm not saying Miguel is gonna go for this tactic right off the bat, but he's done it enough to say it's something he would do if he thought it would help. And it would actually win him the match if he manages to pull it off. I believe he's more than capable of doing so.

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#20 Edited by cmcmcmcm (849 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks:

Where are you getting these exact measurements from? I suppose small-car sized was a low estimate. SUV-sized seems more appropriate. I can't really assess the validity of your statement based on personal experience..since I don't you personally let alone seen you work. I can just use my own knowledge of geology to guess what that boulder could weigh. And to me..anything greater than 20 tons is not fair, let alone 60.

SUV is more close size, after all Ryu is 5'9 in height, and that boulder by scale is almost twice Ryu size, and about as thick as Ryu's height. I would say 20+ tons is very low ball and fair estimate.

I think Miguel parrying blows from Thor 2099 and staggering Daemos while holding back (two characters stronger than Ryu) are comparable to Ryu's own striking feats. Miguel has also K.Oed the mutant Travesty after fighting him for a couple seconds.

Travesty was strong to crater concrete just by walking and create mini-earthquakes by slamming his fists into the ground. It's also important to reiterate the point that Miguel can't use chi to amp his strikes like Ryu can..comparing his striking feats is like comparing Iron Fist's to Spider-Man's. Ryu might hit harder, but that doesn't mean he's stronger.

I agree with this. His lifting strength is still good, but its his striking power with chi amp attacks that shine here.

Also..is Tatsunoko vs. Capcom even canon to the SF universe? Alex also had a cutscene where he sliced apart a missile with the air from a punch and I don't recall him doing anything like that in SF 3.

As I stated earlier, I was using comics and game feats. However now looking back at the original rule discussion you posted, I made a mistake. In my head I thought Comic and Game feats were being used. I see now I stated I would use only Street Fighter game feats. So Ignore that showing, though it is accurate in every way to Ryu's abilities :) That was my mistake, it is hard to keep track a composite version. :)

See, this is what bothers me about debating for Ryu and other SF characters like him. Akuma is supposed to be this guy that can oneshot islands, kick sunken ships from the bottom of the sea to the surface(which is a distance of about 1 and a half miles and would require an obscene amount of force relative to performing the feat above sea level), and clear a whole forest with one blow. These are Grey Hulk level feats..and Ryu has absolutely nothing comparable to them. The idea that Base Ryu can match Akuma in a duel is outright ridiculous, and would require Akuma to hold back considerably to not oneshot him. Which is exactly what he did in Street Fighter Alpha 2. Akuma sensed the Satsui no Hado power in Ryu and wanted to test his abilities. Ryu held his own against Akuma when he was clearly holding back anything close to his full base power. Base Ryu=/=Base Akuma.

Not true. Ryu I showed by canon feats can part rivers and water falls with his energy, lift insane heavy boulders, and jump 1000s of feet under his strength. Hell in one movie Ryu dodges bullets at his face, though that was the Street Fighter Alpha movie. He is very comparable to Spider Man based on various feats from the games, comics, manga, and movies.

Much like Spider Man, he can and does fight foes outside his weight class. After all Spider Man fought and survived Juggernaut, Hulk, Grey Hulk, Morlun, and even beaten Firelord once, as PIS as that was.

Point is Ryu by feats has fought many beings in Grey Hulk level like Akuma, Bison, Seth, Oro, and Gill. Ryu has fought all these guys who are Grey Hulk to older Iron Man level. Akuma does not hold back. Granted he would CRUSH Ryu as Shin Akuma, but he still went all out as his base form, and tried to kill Ryu with the Raging Demon which in no way can be "held back" in the Manga and Later games. Akuma by his nature of Dark Hadou does not hold back for fear of hurting someone, and Ryu several times survived Akuma. He could NEVER beat Akuma, only Dark Ryu or Nothingness Ryu can do that. Base Ryu at best can only survive Akuma.

Also its not like tanking attacks from Akuma is beyond Ryu or other Street Fighters!

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Here Ryu tanks straight flamethrower with no burns.

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Here Ryu tanks a C4 Explosion shockwave to the back, along with the heat of the blast. No damage.

Heck other Street Fighters show insane durability.

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Thunderhawk tanks the Psycho Crusher that leaves a easy 10 foot wide crater without major damage, just KOed.

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Cammy tanks a insane energy attack that wrecks multiple cars and the parking lot. She is not KOed.

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Chun Li tanks over a million volts from Red Viper, keeps fighting.

Street Fighter characters are all Meta Humans in durability. One of the toughest Street Fighters like Ryu surviving Akuma is not unsupported.

Also..when we agreed on this matchup the original stipulation was that UDON comic feats and canon game feats were allowed. Manga feats(even those based off the games) aren't allowed.

Moving on..

As I said, feats from comics was meant all the SF comics, which I include the official Manga as part of the comics criteria. The Canon SF Games feat slipped my mind as I stated above, and apologize for that. Ignore that one feat.

Also to be fair, even if I was allowed to use that one game feat, would you think it make much difference? Ryu power is still incredible even beyond that one feat. But again, I lost track of game feats to be used, I remember not to use Movie feats, and slipped my mind that I would use canon SF feats only.

Anyway game on.

Huh? Creating afterimages is a common speed trope in multiple forms of fiction including manga and manga-inspired comics. They generally show "fast-paced" movement, but exactly how fast is usually unclear. Hell even Marvel does it..

It's clear that Gabrielle Dell'Otto meant for James and Laura to be moving at fast speeds..but the exact speed is hard to tell and anyone's guess. Thus making the feat unquantifiable and hard to compare to more clear one's like Miguel's bullet-timing and laser-dodging one's. Ryu creating afterimages and reacting to characters who can just isn't as impressive IMO. And while we're on the subject of Ryu reacting to fast characters..

Wolverine and X-23 speed wise can keep up with Peter Parker Spider Man. Your own example validates mine. :)

You know what let's examine their fight in the UDON comics shall we?

So what we have here is Akuma goading Ryu into tapping into the Satsui no Hado, and of course Ryu refuses. And because of this, Akuma treats Ryu like a child and beats him quite handily. It's only after this when Ryu taps into the Satsui No Hado and becomes Dark Ryu when he begins to give him a run for his money. But I'd hardly consider Base Ryu fighting Akuma on even ground, in fact I'd hardly consider Akuma even trying to beat Base Ryu. Just like in Street FIghter 2 Alpha, Akuma clearly only wanted Ryu to turn into Dark Ryu so he could give him a good fight and not hold back.

All this is true. As Per Street Fighter 2.

Ryu has gone through much more training, and undergone more trials to get stronger so he could face Akuma without worrying about needing to go Dark Ryu. So in that regard, Ryu gotten stronger to face Akuma. This happen in the comics and games. Ryu got spanked by Akuma in their first meeting, then base Ryu trains to the point he gave Akuma a ok fight, though still outclass in the end.

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He always gotten better and stronger as the series in the game and comics progressed. Always striving to be stronger, and by Street Fighter 3 and 4, he is pretty uber powerful at base.

This is Ryu before hard training.

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Here he is after hard training.

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Big difference. Before he was no match at all at first even with Ken's help. After much training he is fully capable of matching Akuma to a degree by himself.

Another big thing to notice in the scans is this major shown fact. Ryu in the first battle lands a hit in the form of his most powerful Hurricane Kick, the Shinku Tatsumaki Senpukyaku. The most powerful form of his kick was easily caught, and did not move Akuma ta all. Scan 5. Yet in the second battle Ryu uses a basic Tatsumaki Senpukyaku which sent Akuma flying. Akuma then states how Ryu had improved showing how Ryu gotten stronger at base. Scans 2-3.

I know full well how powerful the Hadoken can be, and I don't doubt that Miguel would take a good amount of damage if it were to land. What I do doubt is Ryu's ability to tag Miguel with one. I've already shown how Miguel's speed and Spider-agility makes dodging fast projectiles such as bullets and lasers a cakewalk..

..to the point where he can matrix automatic gunfire like it's not even there. Combined with the added mobility his web-swinging gives him, I don't see him having too much trouble dodging hadokens if he's making a conscious effort to do so. Especially since Ryu takes a very unique stance and motion telegraphing the move before it's launched. Even if he does get tagged(not completely ruling out the possibility of this happening) he's more than durable enough to power through the pain.

Problem is Hadoukens been hard to dodge by even Akuma even though he has shown dodging other projectile energy attacks of other characters in the past. Another thing to note is Ryu combos Hadoukens in his attacks. He can be landing painful punches, and then pop off a Hadouken at point blank. More on this at the bottom of this post.

Hadoukens is still a viable energy projectile attack and both Ken and Akuma showed it can be massively spammed like in the games.

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I see no reason for Ryu not to spam it if he feels its a good choice.

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lol

Also Ryu has another trick up his sleeve. The Shinko Hadouken!

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The Shinku Hadouken is a way more powerful version of the Hadouken, and seen many times as a beam of energy.

Its so powerful that not only powered right through the Tiger Strike (big deal in itself as the Tiger strike overpowered Ryu's powerful Hadoukens easy), but then one shot Sagat who is roughly Ryu's equal in Street Fighter 2 tournament.

One hit from this will seriously wound Miguel, and it will be much harder to dodge as a beam of energy that by cinema cutscenes fires off as a instantaneous beam rather than a traveling ball of energy.

Now Ryu on the otherhand..can't afford to get bitten even once since his resistance to poison is almost nonexistent. I'm not saying Miguel is gonna go for this tactic right off the bat, but he's done it enough to say it's something he would do if he thought it would help. And it would actually win him the match if he manages to pull it off. I believe he's more than capable of doing so.

Most of this is true, however as I stated biting Ryu will be very hard.

Most of this is true, however as I stated biting Ryu will be very hard. Ryu is still as fast to react, and a master fighter. He will be landing attacks wherever he can for sure. Add to this he has the perfect special moves to counter anything Miguel does in hand to hand. One being the Tatsumaki Senpukyaku.

Also known as the Hurricane Kick, this special trademark move of Ryu is used to launch himself in a 360 degree chi amp attack.

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This kick can be pulled off in a single instant, and powerful enough to knock around 5 grown men dog piled on Ryu.

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This attack is so strong that it sends flying Rufus, Rufus weighs over 400 pounds, from the first ring many yards into Zangief, who weighs 253 pounds himself, and then both of them from the force of momentum still go flying out of the second ring.

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Even Akuma both times hit by it shows how fast it is as Akuma can barely react to it, and it harms him in both cases as well.

The Basic Tatsumaki Senpukyaku is strong enough to harm Akuma, and do the feats I showed above. This is not including the more powerful Shinku Tatsumaki Senpukyaku which is even more powerful. This move alone will be insane hard to dodge, or get around.

Add to this move is still the move sets of the Hadoukens, and the Shoryukens. These Special moves are not just awesome and powerful, but Ryu supior skill to Miguel will allow Ryu to chain combo his moves into his special moves.

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All examples of Ryu Comboing moves. Ryu swinging normal attacks, and into a Hadouken. Unlike Gen and Akuma who are the top martial artist, even above Ryu in skill to move read/counter, I see no reason for Miguel not get pounded by the more powerful End of Series Hadoukens.

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Examples of how fast Ryu can pull of a Shoryuken. In the first and last two scans Ryu combo links the powerful Special Move with normal attacks.

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Links the Hurricane Kick from a combo move

Point is all these uber powerful special moves can be pulled off at a split second notice, and making it that much easier to nail Miguel. Ryu is just a superior fighter in skill, and with the comparable speed, I see no reason for Miguel to get a biting attack in without eating energy amp strikes or a Hadouken.

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Much like this.

In short it is not a easy task at all for Miguel to get his own attacks in much less easy pull of a Venom Bite. Ryu has many counters in the Hurricane Kick, and can chain combo his moves in combat to catch Miguel in a bad spot.

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#21 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36323 posts) - - Show Bio

Spiderman clearly has the cooler costume, which trumps any points Cmc could possibly ever make. Vote for Juiceboks. :p

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#22 Edited by cmcmcmcm (849 posts) - - Show Bio

@lukehero said:

Spiderman clearly has the cooler costume, which trumps any points Cmc could possibly ever make. Vote for Juiceboks. :p

Pfffft, please.

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Now that is f***ing scary costume. Thats the kinda costume that screams, "Your Spiderman 2099? You got a purdy mouth. C'mere boy!"

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#23 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36323 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Edited by cmcmcmcm (849 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36323 posts) - - Show Bio

@cmcmcmcm: Nope, face it that White Suit with that lame red ribbon he stole from his little sister is no longer gonna cut it. You've been out costumed. Costume >>>>Feats.

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#26 Edited by cmcmcmcm (849 posts) - - Show Bio

@lukehero said:

@cmcmcmcm: Nope, face it that White Suit with that lame red ribbon he stole from his little sister is no longer gonna cut it. You've been out costumed. Costume >>>>Feats.

White Costume is only base form. Dark Ryu costume is still his costume :P and way cooler. Hell the withe Gi is still cooler.

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#27 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36323 posts) - - Show Bio

@cmcmcmcm: I can't believe this man, you're clearly lowballing Future Spidey's costume. This is insulting. Flagged for costume hating. :p

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#28 Posted by cmcmcmcm (849 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Edited by juiceboks (24549 posts) - - Show Bio

@thefallen_1

SUV is more close size, after all Ryu is 5'9 in height, and that boulder by scale is almost twice Ryu size, and about as thick as Ryu's height. I would say 20+ tons is very low ball and fair estimate.

20 tons sounds about right..not that this particular point is the most important one.

Not true. Ryu I showed by canon feats can part rivers and water falls with his energy, lift insane heavy boulders, and jump 1000s of feet under his strength. Hell in one movie Ryu dodges bullets at his face, though that was the Street Fighter Alpha movie. He is very comparable to Spider Man based on various feats from the games, comics, manga, and movies.

Much like Spider Man, he can and does fight foes outside his weight class. After all Spider Man fought and survived Juggernaut, Hulk, Grey Hulk, Morlun, and even beaten Firelord once, as PIS as that was.

None of those feats come close to the island-level stuff Akuma does casually. Ryu is in fact comparable to Peter I agree..but Peter isn't at all comparable to Akuma or any characters on his level. So Ryu fighting "evenly" with Akuma doesn't make any sense.

I'll address all of those fights individually as they all are missing quite a bit of context.

Hulk- Peter's fought him a lot in several incarnations..however I'd hardly call any of them "even" fights. Peter has struggled to hurt him in all but one of the fights the two have had(which consisted of as much PIS as the Firelord fight) and usually consists of Peter dodging Hulk's hits until he gets bored or Peter gets outside help. In fact, the best example of how a Spider-Man vs. Hulk match would go happened in Peter Parker: Spider-Man Vol 2 Issue 14. Peter was wailing on Hulk his fists were bleeding and Hulk was literally unharmed, the fight ended when Hulk and Peter came to a mutual understanding of MJ's recent death. Again, hardly "even" fights.

Juggernaut- Similar to Peter's fights with Hulk, Spidey uses his superior speed and reflexes to dodge and rain blow after blow on Cain obviously to no avail. The PIS comes into play in the iconic issues of Amazing Spider-Man #229 and 230, when Peter not only tanks Juggernaut's poundings but defeats him by trapping him in wet cement. I don't need to explain how ridiculous it is for someone who has gone toe to toe with Hulk to be incapable of K.Oing Spider-Man when he's actually trying, let alone get subdued by cement.

Morlun- Uhm, Morlun stomped Peter up until he tried to drink his blood. After discovering it was irradiated, he started to weaken which allowed Peter to get the upperhand. Not an even battle in the slightest and Peter won due to a plot-device(seeing a pattern here).

The real flaw in comparing Peter's fights with bricks to Ryu's bouts with Akuma is that Akuma is not a brick. He's Ryu's superior in literally EVERY single way. At the very least Peter has his speed and superior reflexes going for him when he goes up against someone like the Hulk. Ryu on the other hand is outclassed on all fronts compared to Akuma, there's absolutely no reason why he should fighting him on equal ground. Which he doesn't, because Akuma either holds back considerably to test him or holds back and embarrasses him until he turns into Dark Ryu. Bison, Seth, Gill, and Oro either don't have Akuma's feats of power or have earned wins against Ryu like in Oro's case. Ryu can fight characters above his weight class all he wants, that doesn't necessarily put him on their levels. And it certainly doesn't put him anywhere near Akuma's standards of..anything.

Peter doesn't beat characters way out of his weight class without a plot-device, just like Base Ryu doesn't fight Akuma evenly without the latter handicapping himself. Citing his fights doesn't help your case.

Most of this is true, however as I stated biting Ryu will be very hard. Ryu is still as fast to react, and a master fighter. He will be landing attacks wherever he can for sure. Add to this he has the perfect special moves to counter anything Miguel does in hand to hand. One being the Tatsumaki Senpukyaku.

Don't see why Miguel can't tank this, or avoid it. Or better yet use his superior agility to grab hold of his leg and chomp on it. Ryu didn't actually hurt Akuma. He was hit sure..but it didn't actually do any damage.

Wolverine and X-23 speed wise can keep up with Peter Parker Spider Man. Your own example validates mine. :)

Not really..they can keep up with Peter because they have comparable quantifiable showings that suggest so. One of which is actually keeping up with Peter..at least in James' case. Ryu hasn't exactly proven that..but this is what we're debating, isn't it? Not saying Ryu is incapable of that, but those afterimages don't prove anything. Hell even peak humans like Batman are capable of replicating feats like Ryu's..

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..afterimages clearly don't serve much of a purpose other than to illustrate the notion that "That character is attacking very fast!". Well Miguel can clearly attack faster.

Big difference. Before he was no match at all at first even with Ken's help. After much training he is fully capable of matching Akuma to a degree by himself.

Another big thing to notice in the scans is this major shown fact. Ryu in the first battle lands a hit in the form of his most powerful Hurricane Kick, the Shinku Tatsumaki Senpukyaku. The most powerful form of his kick was easily caught, and did not move Akuma ta all. Scan 5. Yet in the second battle Ryu uses a basic Tatsumaki Senpukyaku which sent Akuma flying. Akuma then states how Ryu had improved showing how Ryu gotten stronger at base. Scans 2-3.

After training he still clearly got spanked by Akuma who was also still clearly holding back, of course not without Akuma acknowledging his hard-work. He is a good sport after all.

He sent Akuma back a little..he didn't actually do anything significant. Hell he didn't even make him grunt..Akuma still owned him in the end pretty effortlessly. None of this proves Base Ryu can hold a candle to Akuma at any point in his life. In fact it proves he can't get to his level no matter how hard he trains.

Problem is Hadoukens been hard to dodge by even Akuma even though he has shown dodging other projectile energy attacks of other characters in the past. Another thing to note is Ryu combos Hadoukens in his attacks. He can be landing painful punches, and then pop off a Hadouken at point blank. More on this at the bottom of this post.

I don't recall Akuma ever having trouble avoiding Hadokens..not that he'd have to considering how powerful he is. Ryu mixing up his attacks like that is a great strategy to catch Miguel off guard, but the spider has his own ranged tactics that I believe will be much more effective. I briefly mentioned already, but let me reiterate. Miguel can shoot organic webbing from wrists, and he has a penchant for blinding his opponents allowing him to open up with other attacks..

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Ryu surely wouldn't expect a facefull of webbing, and as he's momentarily occupied with getting the gunk off his face Miguel can close any distance between the two and give him a good chomp. And if there's any doubt of Miguel's ability to tag Ryu, keep in mind Miguel has shown to be quick enough to web away a gun after the trigger was pulled and drag it away before the bullet left the chamber..

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..needless to say he's fairly quick on the draw. I honestly don't see how this tactic wouldn't work, and is surely more reliable than Ryu's various martial art moves.

In short it is not a easy task at all for Miguel to get his own attacks in much less easy pull of a Venom Bite. Ryu has many counters in the Hurricane Kick, and can chain combo his moves in combat to catch Miguel in a bad spot.

I've presented at least one way Miguel can get the better of Ryu, and it's one Ryu doesn't really have a counter for. Miguel at the very least can tank Ryu's attacks for a while if he has to, Ryu on the otherhand can't fight blinded, with his throat slashed, or with poison as potent as Miguel's in his system. Ryu may have an edge in pure fighting skill, but he's edged out in raw combat speed, reflexes, and agility. Spider-Man 2099 has several ways of getting around Ryu's durability to blunt force(which I'll admit rivals Miguel's) in the form of his talons, fangs, and venom. Ryu however has no choice but to wear his opponent down with kicks, punches, and energy attacks which will clearly take a while. It's because of these advantages that I honestly believe Miguel should edge out Ryu for a majority.

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#30 Posted by juiceboks (24549 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by Jestersmiles (9823 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to read it later, about to zzzz. Can't wait :)

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#32 Posted by juiceboks (24549 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36323 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by juiceboks (24549 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by juiceboks (24549 posts) - - Show Bio

@lukehero I believe you said you wanted to be notified again today.

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#36 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36323 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: I'll sit down eat, and read.

Oh maybe you wanna read too, and I'm still working on my post for are action hero CAV.

@comicstooge

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#37 Edited by cosmicallyaware1 (7308 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: alright my man, I re-read and am ready to cats my vote here.

I will say that I feared I was a bit biased......as I have argued for Miguel against Ryu in a previous match. I put all bias aside and focused on the argument presented however. With that being said I feel that you presented the most sound argument. Your opponent did provide an excellent strategy and swayed me at times on how Ryu could become victorious. In the end, you provided the appropriate logic with sound counters and convinced me that Miguel indeed takes the victory. Well done.

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#38 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36323 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Edited by Jestersmiles (9823 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote goes to @juiceboks. While this would be a close fight : Ryu as debated by cmcmcmcm, very well I might add, clearly has the strength advantage over Miguel. That being said I think juiceboks still counter those arguments very well by highlighting Miguel speed, venom bite and claws. things in which I think would be hard for ryu to counter.

A other factor was how unfortunately I was not very convinced about ryu speed by cmcmcmcm. I think he relied on to much on after images drawn on the comics and did not give an accurate description on How fast ryu really is. A other point that I also think Juicebok counter very nicely with scans of batman and of James and Laura with after images.

As for both debaters conclusions

CM did make a very good argument on how ryu could chain some hits together and take out Miguel rather quickly and counter Miguel from biting him.

but

Again I felt juiceboks counter nicely with Miguel using his webbing to distract his opponents: something that I believe Miguel would use rather often in a fight.

Close fight , close debate but @juiceboks takes this one in my opinion.

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#40 Edited by okayalright_44 (1524 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going to go with @juiceboks here. He had a more convincing argument (imo) as to why Spider-man's speed, webbing and versatility would secure him a win against Ryu. Be it incap or k.o.

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#41 Posted by those_eyes (17291 posts) - - Show Bio

bump