if the anti monitor had absorbed all pre crisis dc universes. vs the judge of the marvel multiverse
full power anti monitor vs living tribunal
We can actually find a legitimate conclusion to this thread if people would just start posting feats for both characters and comparing to see which is greater.
Anybody willing to post some for Anti-Monitor? I can post some for LT.
@kilgpmktra: Here is some.
....
If this is COIE Anti Monitor, then he wins. He had destroyed apparently a infinite amount of universes and would have done the same to all of them had his counterpart not protected them. Sliver Age Superman was a ant compared to him. As he gets stronger from every universe destroyed, him winning would have likely made him pretty damn powerful.
Technically we don't really know what his full powered form would have looked like, but having consumed every universe (of which again there were apparently a infinite amount) he far outclasses the Tribunal, who only extends to a multiversal level of strength. By those standards, he simply doesn't have the power to stop a full power Anti Monitor. Tribunal besides hype and wonky hierarchal standards doesn't have much to work with.
If this is Post Crisis Monitor, on the other hand.....
Can LT survive Anti-matter Wave? Feats need to be given for that. COIE Anti Monitor also has multiversal feats. And also, destroying more universes makes him more powerful.
@diarrhearegatta: I don't actually recall Silver Age Superman actually fighting him.
@brucerogers: Silver Age Superman is same as the Superman who fought the Anti Monitor.
@empressofdread: It's been a while since I've read COIE, but wasn't that Bronze Age supes?
@brucerogers: Well yes. But Superman of the Silver Age and Bronze Age is the same, also known as Pre-crisis Superman.
@brucerogers: Well yes. But Superman of the Silver Age and Bronze Age is the same, also known as Pre-crisis Superman.
Not really. Superman was canonically depowered at the end of the Sandman Saga in the early 70s. Around the same time the Bronze Age of comics came to be.
Living Tribunal has been repeatedly demolished by reality warpers who have total control over the multiverse. COIE fully powered anti monitor was the entire DC multiverse, his reality warping and molecular control almost destroyed a being with divine power. Living Tribunal goes down hard and doesn't get back up.
@brucerogers: There was no official depowering. He has similar and greater feats post Silver Age as well. The only thing that changes is writing. Which changes from era to era. Not just for Superman but other characters as well. They are the same character.
@brucerogers: There was no official depowering. He has similar and greater feats post Silver Age as well. The only thing that changes is writing. Which changes from era to era. Not just for Superman but other characters as well. They are the same character.
Is there a scan or issue where we see Superman get his powers restored at his Silver Age levels?. And Bronze Age Supes (while still absurdly powerful) wasn't anywhere near as absurd as his SA self.
They attempted in the starting of the Bronze age. Namely, the writers who started writing the bronze age comics to make Superman more relatable characters. Like having Super strength, speed and durability. But having less PIS/plot armor or plot based powers like miniature Superman creation, hypnotic eye beams and stuff like that.
As far as stats go they didn't make major changes, while there are statements for Superman being weaker during the bronze age but when we look at the consistency of the feats. Some of the bronze age feats are actually better than Silver Age and for what its worth Superman went against some of the most powerful foes, later on, and got better feats later on, like in times before the COIE. So it likely makes sense that Superman was shown to be on that power level when writers intended to do so or in this case they failed to do so. As far as Plot armor goes yes it was probably reduced. But his power level wasn't that much changed. For example, Superman and Supergirl, later on, were fighting cosmic powered beings even post 1978. And after that their power level was pretty much Silver Age level (minus the plot armor). Silver Age was a time in comic books where writers gave characters feats without any story or "motive" behind it. Superman was extinguishing Suns just to prove a point for example. These feats were not having any relation to the story. Superboy (Clark as a toddler) was carrying a galaxy worth of planets from one side of the universe to another. The feat has no relation to the main story all writers wanted to was how powerful he is, hell, it has aroused one of the funniest questions, like who created that Chain lol. If we look at feats after that moment you are talking about. In 1972's Supermans Pal Jimmy Olsen #147. On New Genesis Clark was tanking Magnars combined Magnetic repulsion flow worth a 100 galaxies, Superman #242 was in 1971. So writers didn't change the physical stats. Consistently speaking.
COIE fully powered anti monitor was the entire multiverse
So was Eternity.
And he's still well below Living Tribunal.
He is so big that he kept the whole multiverse in a jar, and he feeds off of stories, and the only story powerful enough to beat him was of superman, because he is the most iconic superhero. So, LT has nothing on him, his powers are beyond the likes of LT.
People like to pretend that LT is the 2nd most powerful being in marvel , but that is not true and it has been shown quite a few times as well. From Scathan superseding his authority, to him crumbling before the PR Beyonder, to his powers getting replicated by Protege, to him being killed by the Beyonders, to him being absorbed by the HoTU Thanos... should I go on?
Eternity and Living Tribunal are destroyed by certain power sets that revolve around molecule ownership. Neither the Tribunal nor Eternity had it in force like Molecule Man or Beyonder, or a few others similar. AntiMonitor owned physics so hard that God had to send in the Spectre to fight it using Divinity override over that molecular control.
AM stomps LT.
COIE fully powered anti monitor was the entire multiverse
So was Eternity.
And he's still well below Living Tribunal.
When did Anti-Monitor do these things? Sounds like your confusing him for Mandrakk, and that's a different discussion on whether those claims are true.
Do you have scans that show AM transcends physics, and that LT doesn't?
Wasn't this Mandrakk in Final Crisis???
Anyways, he held multiverses in a jar iirc. LT should be above that considering he's above beings who embody the entire marvel omniverse. I'll start posting some relevant LT stuff in a bit. A bit tired atm
When did Anti-Monitor do these things? Sounds like your confusing him for Mandrakk, and that's a different discussion on whether those claims are true.
Yeah, sorry, I confused Dark Monitor with Anti monitor, yeah, I was talking about Mandrakk, Please ignore what I said. But I am just gonna put this here anyway:
People like to pretend that LT is the 2nd most powerful being in marvel , but that is not true and it has been shown quite a few times as well. From Scathan superseding his authority, to him crumbling before the PR Beyonder, to his powers getting replicated by Protege, to him being killed by the Beyonders, to him being absorbed by the HoTU Thanos... should I go on?
@coolguy18: I read those scans, but it appears AM there is only affecting two universes, the positive matter and his own? That's a start, but that's not really impressive by LT standards. Even if AM can destroy infinite universes, that still is not impressive to LT.
In Marvel, Endless universes are created each moment
This is understandable considering there are other multiverses/countless multiverses all through out the omniverse and the omniverse is infinitely layered.
Living tribunal's base of operation is the "star chamber" and within this realm, he has agents who assist in judgement which all ultimately dwarfs the omniverse
And LT is above all other abstracts who embody everything and he himself is transcended of all other cosmic entities and of all space/time
The Living Tribunal should win if Anti monitor's best feat is only destroying infinite universes. Got any more stuff for Anti-monitor to continue?
LT.
Marvel having an omniverse that contains infinite multiverses is the same as the Infinity Orrery in DC. Except Tribunal has no feats of handling the entire run of it. Anti Monitor does.
No reality warpers could stop Anti Monitor. God's vengence, the Spectre, a divine being that superscedes reality warpers, had to step in and try to stop it. Whereas reality warpers have consistently dismantled the Tribunal over and over. I still havent seen a good case for The Tribunal winning this one. His weakness is exactly what Anti Monitor had total dominion over.
@babymagikarp: Marvel having an omniverse that contains infinite multiverses is the same as the Infinity Orrery in DC. Except Tribunal has no feats of handling the entire run of it. Anti Monitor does.
....even excluding the star chamber (LT personal realm which dwarfs the multiverse it seems) Marvel is also infinitely layered multiverse which is far more impressive and LT was said to be the embodiment of all of it in Secret Wars. Actually, now in ultimates, Multi-Eternity has been said to be the embodiment of it.
Anti Monitor does.
Mind showing him doing that?
No reality warpers could stop Anti Monitor.
That's not saying much. Reality warping is a broad term. There's levels to reality warping. Not every reality warper operates on the same scale.
God's vengence, the Spectre, a divine being that superscedes reality warpers, had to step in and try to stop it.
Mind posting the sheer scale of some of these "reality warpers" that were unable to stop AM? Just saying that they can "warp reality" isn't saying much. There are street level characters that can warp reality to a degree. Gotta show something more than that tbh.
Whereas reality warpers have consistently dismantled the Tribunal over and over.
I mean, these "reality warpers" that beat LT literally came from a realm beyond the omniverse (beyonders) and required PIS to be taken down. Not all "reality warpers" are equal, really don't understand the fixation of this term. LT losing to other insanely top tier characters, isn't really saying much unless you can show AM just flat out being greater with no ambiguities.
I still havent seen a good case for The Tribunal winning this one.
I mean...no one has really posted anything from the anti monitor that's greater than what LT is capable of.
His weakness is exactly what Anti Monitor had total dominion over.
Uhhhh? What? LT's only "weakness" (if you can call it that) is that all heads must agree to permit judgement, which isn't anything serious.
....even excluding the star chamber (LT personal realm which dwarfs the multiverse it seems) Marvel is also infinitely layered multiverse which is far more impressive and LT was said to be the embodiment of all of it in Secret Wars. Actually, now in ultimates, Multi-Eternity has been said to be the embodiment of it.
- Infinite is infinite. A Multiverse with infinite universes is the same as an Omniverse with infinite multiverses.
Mind showing him doing that?
- Tribunal was destroyed by someone who had more power than the entire marvel multiverse. Beyonder said his power was quantifiably measurable. "X amount of times as powerful as the multiverse, a drop in the sea by comparison". LT's domain is not infinite. There are plenty of scans to back that up. LT has no domain in the Beyond, nor the Void, nor many other places. His power does not exceed what is inside the DC Orrery that was absorbed by the Anti Monitor.
That's not saying much. Reality warping is a broad term. There's levels to reality warping. Not every reality warper operates on the same scale.
- Where were they in the fight? Nobody was there, because he ate them all.
Mind posting the sheer scale of some of these "reality warpers" that were unable to stop AM? Just saying that they can "warp reality" isn't saying much. There are street level characters that can warp reality to a degree. Gotta show something more than that tbh.
- Again, they were all eaten lol. The Spectre was sent in to stop him. Divinity was the only thing left at the time and in the Kirby run, The Presence was watching and reset the continuity. In the Grant Morrison Run, The Empty Hand did that. Nobody else stepped up? No other "gods" came to help. Spectre and some of the justice league were all that survived."
I mean, these "reality warpers" that beat LT literally came from a realm beyond the omniverse (beyonders) and required PIS to be taken down. Not all "reality warpers" are equal, really don't understand the fixation of this term. LT losing to other insanely top tier characters, isn't really saying much unless you can show AM just flat out being greater with no ambiguities. I mean...no one has really posted anything from the anti monitor that's greater than what LT is capable of. Uhhhh? What? LT's only "weakness" (if you can call it that) is that all heads must agree to permit judgement, which isn't anything serious.
Those with total control over physics dismantled LT repeatedly. You don't really have an argument there, AM controlled antimatter. That is matter control, and he owned it on infinite levels. Far in excess of even what Beyonder claimed. You aren't seeing the inconsistency there in your argument.
You are claiming Marvel is infinite, X statement here says this. Beyonder who destroyed LT said it wasn't infinite. So where are your feats then if Beyonders statements aren't good enough for you? Living Tribunal is bested by those with matter manipulation power. AM owns matter of the entire DC infinite orrery. It is in the name of the comic book. Crisis on Infinite Earths. LT gets murderstomped here. He has no power by comparison.
@babymagikarp: Infinite is infinite. A Multiverse with infinite universes is the same as an Omniverse with infinite multiverses.
What? No it isn't.
Tribunal was destroyed by someone who had more power than the entire marvel multiverse. Beyonder said his power was quantifiably measurable. "X amount of times as powerful as the multiverse, a drop in the sea by comparison".
Excluding the Ivory kings, LT never got destroyed by the beyonder (SW 1985). He simply backed off because Beyonder was a special case. Beyonder was someone who embodied a realm explicitly beyond what even he himself describes as an infinitely layered multiverse. This does not downgrade the overall cosmology by any means
LT's domain is not infinite.
....You literally have the Beyonder perceiving the Multiverse as an infinitely layered creation and LT embodying it.
. LT has no domain in the Beyond, nor the Void, nor many other places.
...You do realize why Beyonder is called "The Beyonder" right? Of course LT isn't going to have authority over a realm explicitly above the Marvel Multiverse. What does that have to do with anything?
His power does not exceed what is inside the DC Orrery that was absorbed by the Anti Monitor.
Prove it. Also, Prove that this "Orrey" is equal in size to the main Marvel Multiverse.
Where were they in the fight? Nobody was there, because he ate them all.
Okay....? That doesn't go against the point I was making against your fixation for "reality warping".
Again, they were all eaten lol. The Spectre was sent in to stop him. Divinity was the only thing left at the time and in the Kirby run, The Presence was watching and reset the continuity. In the Grant Morrison Run, The Empty Hand did that. Nobody else stepped up? No other "gods" came to help. Spectre and some of the justice league were all that survived."
That's cool n all, mind posting the level that AM was operating at or the amount of space he was affecting? That's all you have to do to prove he's greater than LT. You have yet to do this.
Those with total control over physics dismantled LT repeatedly
......You mean the beyonders/Ivory Kings? The same Beings that destroyed the multiverse? I'm sure most characters would get "dismantled" by them. LT losing to them isn't because of some weakness they exploited. He lost because they were simply stronger than him.
You don't really have an argument there, AM controlled antimatter
....lol
You have yet to show anything AM did on LT's level. You just made up some random "weakness" for LT and tried to equalize some realm AM was affecting with the Marvel Multiverse and think AM is greater because of this. NLF much?
That is matter control, and he owned it on infinite levels. Far in excess of even what Beyonder claimed
Prove it. Simply prove AM did what you're claiming and exceeded what the beyonder is capable of. That's all you gotta do. Your statements are no longer trustworthy. Proof please.
You aren't seeing the inconsistency there in your argument.
Oh please...lol
You are claiming Marvel is infinite
...I'm not claiming it, Marvel is.
There's plenty of other scans that confirm the sheer size of the cosmology too. Don't know what you're talking about.
Beyonder who destroyed LT said it wasn't infinite
??? Beyonder himself literally says and perceives that the multiverse is infinitely layered. And the Beyonder never destroyed LT. Don't know what you're saying. He was a lot stronger than him at that time, considering he came from a realm that dwarfed the multiverse, but he never destroyed anyone actually. The ivory kings did, but they made no such statements that you're claiming.
So where are your feats then if Beyonders statements aren't good enough for you? Living Tribunal is bested by those with matter manipulation power.
lol...? First, Beyonder literally confirms what i'm trying to explain to you. Second, LT got bested by beings that completely dwarfed the Multiverse. Anybody would lose the Beyonder/Beyonders, not because of "matter manipulation"... this isn't unique to LT.
AM owns matter of the entire DC infinite orrery.
And? You still haven't shown this to be anything impressive in comparison to Marvel's cosmology. So it means nothing.
It is in the name of the comic book. Crisis on Infinite Earths. LT gets murderstomped here. He has no power by comparison.
Okay, i'ma give you the benefit of the doubt. You really have no idea what you're talking about. Like, at all.
Just start posting what AM has done to suggest that he's greater. You keep making up your own theories and equalizations and then say AM wins because of it. Like...no. Just prove it.
More like beyonder talking about infinite dimensions. But, I respect your opinions on this. I don't agree with most of that and will give a nod and walk away from the debate.
More like beyonder talking about infinite dimensions. But, I respect your opinions on this. I don't agree with most of that and will give a nod and walk away from the debate.
..................Yes, Marvel is an infinitely layered multiverse. You have beings like the watcher confirming that there exist infinite multiverses and Beyonder (someone who embodys a realm beyond the multiverse), Kubik, "cat", Reed ect... confirming that there are infinite levels of existence that engulfs all of creation for example.
But, I respect your opinions on this.
Cool, Same to you.
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