Full potential Darth maul vs Prime Darth sidious

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Ieatnettles

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#1  Edited By Ieatnettles
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VS

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Canon only

Scenario: Maul didnt lose on naboo, sidious has taught maul all he knows, maul is now wanting to kill sidious and become the new sith emperor

Standard equipment

Fight takes place in emperor's throne room

Do u think maul could have surpassed sidious?

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Ieatnettles

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Callouts: @frozen,@dirtyluna,@jedisympathiz3r,@emmafrostxmen,

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SonOfDarkness

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Probably Maul

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A_FINE_EDITION

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Personally I'm of the opinion that Sidious was genuinely considering Maul as a potential replacement to continue the Rule of Two. He didn't know about Anakin's existence until basically the same day or so that Maul "died."

I think Maul certainly had the potential to become greater than his master.

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CryoLancer47

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Sidious still manhandles.

Full-Potential Maul is fanfiction. We have nothing to go off of to scale him aside from that fact that he could maybe reach the level of Sidious in TPM-era.

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Ieatnettles

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Sidious still manhandles.

Full-Potential Maul is fanfiction. We have nothing to go off of to scale him aside from that fact that he could maybe reach the level of Sidious in TPM-era.

He has more potential than mother talzin due to talzins statement in SOD, so that would at least put him at >rots sidious

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Supreme101

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#8  Edited By Supreme101

Since when did Maul ever have untapped potentialđź’€

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Eisenfauste

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Mail loses.

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macattack1

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How is anyone supposed to answer this? It is complete guess work.

As far as head canon goes, think of Maul however you like, but from what we’ve actually seen Sidious wins easily.

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Ieatnettles

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@macattack1: based on him having more potential than talzin

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Kaore

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A hypothetical fully trained Maul would probably beat Sidious

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JediSympathiz3r

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Maul. The whole point of the Rule of 2 is to make the Sith stronger every generation. Sidious wouldn’t have taken Maul as an apprentice if Maul had lower potential than him.

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nassergrant19

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Sidious still manhandles.

Full-Potential Maul is fanfiction. We have nothing to go off of to scale him aside from that fact that he could maybe reach the level of Sidious in TPM-era.

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Greysentinel365

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Maul.

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Famousroman

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Sidious. Maul could get as powerful, as this and as that, but Sidious is more talented, smarter, learns and knows more powers.

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Killmonger101

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@famousroman: It literally says in the OP Sidious teaches him everything he knows.

OT: RoTJ Sidious should still win. Being >= RoTS Sidious is great, but that’s not going to cut it.

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Famousroman

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@famousroman: It literally says in the OP Sidious teaches him everything he knows.

OT: RoTJ Sidious should still win. Being >= RoTS Sidious is great, but that’s not going to cut it.

Didn't see.

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CryoLancer47

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@cryolancer47 said:

Sidious still manhandles.

Full-Potential Maul is fanfiction. We have nothing to go off of to scale him aside from that fact that he could maybe reach the level of Sidious in TPM-era.

He has more potential than mother talzin due to talzins statement in SOD, so that would at least put him at >rots sidious

I'm well aware of that piece of hype. But even if we take it seriously and wank him to Titan-Tier by using it. Peak Sheev surpasses his RoTS iteration. And that's not acknowleding the fact that SoD Talzin was losing to Sidious during their clash, to the point Maul had to assist her before Dookie helped Sheev with his lightning:

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And the fact that TCW Sheev is considered the most powerful being in the galaxy and more powerful than Talzin, who hoped to defeat ol' Sheev to inherit that title:

By restoring Maul’s powers, Talzin hoped to defeat Sidious and become the most powerful being in the galaxy.

-- Databank: Mother Talzin

So even if we go Hypothetical Prime Maul >= RoTS Sheev > Talzin. Ol' Mool is still locked below him regardless, due to Sidious not stopping to grow and expanding his knowledge after reaching his RoTS-level.

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Ieatnettles

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@cryolancer47: there is no evidence talzin was losing that fight, maul lent her his strength so talzin could win, not because she was losing. Im not agreeing with you or disagreeing, as this isy thread and I'm not going to state my own opinion in it

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CryoLancer47

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@ieatnettles: Sidious' lightning was clearly getting closer to her:

No Caption Provided

But even ignoring this bit, Sheev is stated to be the most powerful in the Galaxy.

Regardless, Post RoTS Sheev > RoTS Sheev >= SoD TCW Sheev.

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Ieatnettles

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@cryolancer47: I doubt theres any difference between SOD sidious and rots, its like less than a years difference (I think doing this from memory)

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Lord_Tenebrous

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In the shows, Darth Sidious would not have taken on Lord Maul as an apprentice if he didn't believe the Zabrak Sith could one day kill him. Lord Sidious desires his apprentices to be as powerful as possible.

In canon continuity EU, Darth Sidious himself said that only those nearly as powerful in the dark side as himself are permitted to become his apprentice.

It could tip in either direction.

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normanale835

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In the Canon,Maul.

In the Old EU, Sidious. (Maul was never an actual potential sucessor.)

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NinjaWarrior268

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Going with Sheev but I'm surprised how good some of these arguements for Maul have been

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SheevSmacker

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#26  Edited By SheevSmacker

not need full potential when tcw maul ragdoll and soloes him by feat

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Kaore

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buildhare

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Maul isn't Anakin, there is no vast untapped potential he never got to access.

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frozen

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#30 frozen  Moderator

Full potential Maul likely loses to Knightfall Anakin. So prime Sheev steamrolls.

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Ieatnettles

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@frozen said:

Full potential Maul likely loses to Knightfall Anakin. So prime Sheev steamrolls.

Why does he lose to knightfall Anakin?

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#32 frozen  Moderator

@ieatnettles:

His potential is said to be higher than Talzin. Talzin's still weaker than ROTS Sidious, who is confirmed to have underwent noticeable power growth after Order 66. So all we know is that his potential is vaguely beyond someone who's weaker than a post order 66 Sidious.

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Ieatnettles

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@frozen: rots sidious>Kfv, but we just debated about this like yesterday so I cant be bothered to debate more on it

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#34 frozen  Moderator

@frozen: rots sidious>Kfv, but we just debated about this like yesterday so I cant be bothered to debate more on it

Nah they're on par.

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Ieatnettles

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RedSithDisciple

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FP Maul is a fan calc. Sidious still destroys him.

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#37 frozen  Moderator

@frozen: based on?

I'll just copy paste my old blog.

To scale Anakin, it is best to use the Revenge of The Sith incarnation. Early in the film, we see a dark side Anakin dispatched Dooku in a mere 13 seconds. Sidious then confirms that Anakin is 'far' more powerful. Anakin's quick work of Dooku + Sheev's confirmation immediately make it clear that Anakin is a tier above Dooku power wise when he cuts loose.

However it doesn't end there. The 2021 Skywalker Family at War book remarks that Anakin had "superior strength" in the force than the jedi council, which would encompass the likes of Mace and Yoda:

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Of course, one could argue that this refers to potential or that it's from Anakin's perspective and thus biased. That line of reasoning is counteracted by the fact that the same book outright states that Palpatine "made Anakin more powerful than the jedi who held him back":

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One could assume this refers to Obi Wan, however that wouldn't make sense as it would mean that Anakin was lss powerful than Obi Wan prior to Palpatine's tutelage - and this is clearly not the case. The jedi who held him back would refer to the council - Mace, Yoda, etc. It is also doubtful this is biased in favour of Anakin's perspective, as the very next line refers to Anakin's perspective as being "twisted". Furthermore, Yoda remarks in the canon Revenge of the Sith junior novel that Anakin was more powerful than any jedi he had ever come across:

"Premonitions were a rare talent for a Jedi, but not unknown. Yoda had searched the paths of the future himself on occasion. No one had done so deliberately in years, however; not since the dark side began to grow, making such foresight dangerous and unreliable. But Anakin was strong in the Force, stronger than any Jedi Yoda had known in all his hundreds of years. And he had not sought the visions, that much was clear, though he was reluctant to speak too plainly of whatever he had seen. Yoda nodded encouragingly." (Page 83)

The author of the novel has clarified with me that this refers to actualized power and encompasses Yoda himself in the statement:

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Most recently, Secrets of the Sith which was released on 12th October 2021 details Palpatine's writings. In this book, Palpatine remarks that jedi Anakin as of ROTS had power that rivalled his own.

No Caption Provided

So as we can see, ROTS Anakin has power accolades putting his power above the likes of Yoda and Mace - and also relative to ROTS Sidious.

Now I'm well aware that Yoda also has accolades putting himself as the most powerful jedi - and that's fine. But what we're then left with is a situation whereby both Anakin and Yoda have supremacy accolades. In such a situation, it is sensible to accept that they're on the same tier.

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Ieatnettles

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#38  Edited By Ieatnettles

@frozen said:
@ieatnettles said:

@frozen: based on?

I'll just copy paste my old blog.

To scale Anakin, it is best to use the Revenge of The Sith incarnation. Early in the film, we see a dark side Anakin dispatched Dooku in a mere 13 seconds. Sidious then confirms that Anakin is 'far' more powerful. Anakin's quick work of Dooku + Sheev's confirmation immediately make it clear that Anakin is a tier above Dooku power wise when he cuts loose.

However it doesn't end there. The 2021 Skywalker Family at War book remarks that Anakin had "superior strength" in the force than the jedi council, which would encompass the likes of Mace and Yoda:

No Caption Provided

Of course, one could argue that this refers to potential or that it's from Anakin's perspective and thus biased. That line of reasoning is counteracted by the fact that the same book outright states that Palpatine "made Anakin more powerful than the jedi who held him back":

No Caption Provided

One could assume this refers to Obi Wan, however that wouldn't make sense as it would mean that Anakin was lss powerful than Obi Wan prior to Palpatine's tutelage - and this is clearly not the case. The jedi who held him back would refer to the council - Mace, Yoda, etc. It is also doubtful this is biased in favour of Anakin's perspective, as the very next line refers to Anakin's perspective as being "twisted". Furthermore, Yoda remarks in the canon Revenge of the Sith junior novel that Anakin was more powerful than any jedi he had ever come across:

"Premonitions were a rare talent for a Jedi, but not unknown. Yoda had searched the paths of the future himself on occasion. No one had done so deliberately in years, however; not since the dark side began to grow, making such foresight dangerous and unreliable. But Anakin was strong in the Force, stronger than any Jedi Yoda had known in all his hundreds of years. And he had not sought the visions, that much was clear, though he was reluctant to speak too plainly of whatever he had seen. Yoda nodded encouragingly." (Page 83)

The author of the novel has clarified with me that this refers to actualized power and encompasses Yoda himself in the statement:

No Caption Provided

Most recently, Secrets of the Sith which was released on 12th October 2021 details Palpatine's writings. In this book, Palpatine remarks that jedi Anakin as of ROTS had power that rivalled his own.

No Caption Provided

So as we can see, ROTS Anakin has power accolades putting his power above the likes of Yoda and Mace - and also relative to ROTS Sidious.

Now I'm well aware that Yoda also has accolades putting himself as the most powerful jedi - and that's fine. But what we're then left with is a situation whereby both Anakin and Yoda have supremacy accolades. In such a situation, it is sensible to accept that they're on the same tier.

Anakin dispatched dooku quickly due to his zonanakin amp, and we never saw him achieve those power levels again, not even after being suited. Also sidious ragdoll stomped Anakin in yodas wierd force journey, and there is no reason to believe that wouldn't happen outside of the force vision, as sidious wasnt amped in any way and was still fighting Yoda like he was fighting Yoda in rots. The rots novelization goes against so many things that happened in the movie it can't be considered canon. The fact that both Yoda and Anakin have been stared to be both the most powerful Jedi ever also shows that it's based on the authors opinion, so therefore it's completely inconsistent and shouldnt be brought up. Both the statements that you cited from Skywalker family at war are from Anakins perspective, and we know that Anakin extremely overestimates his abilities, as seen in aotc when he says he's equal to Yoda. I may have missed a few things there, but I'm pretty sure I covered all of it.

Also sidious considered talzin a threat, and at the time when he got maul he most likely would have been weaker than her. So he thought maul would be that much of a better and stronger apprentice than talzin he risked his life to get maul. That's how much better he thought mauls potential was than talzins

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G_Race

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Sheev every time.

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frozen

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#40 frozen  Moderator

@ieatnettles:

Anakin dispatched dooku quickly due to his zonanakin amp, and we never saw him achieve those power levels again

Citation needed. Zonakin is literally just Anakin with the dark side. He isn't more powerful than the Anakin who stormed the jedi temple. In fact, it is outright stated on the databank that KFV is > pre order 66 Anakin.

. Also sidious ragdoll stomped Anakin in yodas wierd force journey, and there is no reason to believe that wouldn't happen outside of the force vision, as sidious wasnt amped in any way and was still fighting Yoda like he was fighting Yoda in rots.

This was just an illusion. If you take that as canon, we have a force vision in From A Certain Point of View: Empire Strikse Back of a darkside ROTJ Luke curbstomping ESB Sidious. A vision taken so seriously that its outright referred to as a disturbance in the force. We also have numerous visions of Vader killing Sidious.

The rots novelization goes against so many things that happened in the movie it can't be considered canon. The fact that both Yoda and Anakin have been stared to be both the most powerful Jedi ever also shows that it's based on the authors opinion, so therefore it's completely inconsistent and shouldnt be brought up.

If they both have power statements, then it is fair to assume they're in league with one another. Rather than just to discount all of Anakin's statements as being ''not aligned with the film'' - even though Lucas and Gillard both put Anakin as = Yoda.

The novel I cited is the junior novel, which is entirely 100% canon.

Both the statements that you cited from Skywalker family at war are from Anakins perspective, and we know that Anakin extremely overestimates his abilities, as seen in aotc when he says he's equal to Yoda. I may havemissed a few things there, but I'm pretty sure I covered all of it.

The same passage criticizes Anakin, so it's hardly biased in favour of him.

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Ieatnettles

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@frozen said:

@ieatnettles:

Anakin dispatched dooku quickly due to his zonanakin amp, and we never saw him achieve those power levels again

Citation needed. Zonakin is literally just Anakin with the dark side. He isn't more powerful than the Anakin who stormed the jedi temple. In fact, it is outright stated on the databank that KFV is > pre order 66 Anakin.

. Also sidious ragdoll stomped Anakin in yodas wierd force journey, and there is no reason to believe that wouldn't happen outside of the force vision, as sidious wasnt amped in any way and was still fighting Yoda like he was fighting Yoda in rots.

This was just an illusion. If you take that as canon, we have a force vision in From A Certain Point of View: Empire Strikse Back of a darkside ROTJ Luke curbstomping ESB Sidious. A vision taken so seriously that its outright referred to as a disturbance in the force. We also have numerous visions of Vader killing Sidious.

The rots novelization goes against so many things that happened in the movie it can't be considered canon. The fact that both Yoda and Anakin have been stared to be both the most powerful Jedi ever also shows that it's based on the authors opinion, so therefore it's completely inconsistent and shouldnt be brought up.

If they both have power statements, then it is fair to assume they're in league with one another. Rather than just to discount all of Anakin's statements as being ''not aligned with the film'' - even though Lucas and Gillard both put Anakin as = Yoda.

The novel I cited is the junior novel, which is entirely 100% canon.

Both the statements that you cited from Skywalker family at war are from Anakins perspective, and we know that Anakin extremely overestimates his abilities, as seen in aotc when he says he's equal to Yoda. I may havemissed a few things there, but I'm pretty sure I covered all of it.

The same passage criticizes Anakin, so it's hardly biased in favour of him.

The vision yoda was sent in was literally made by the force sisters, and why would it not be accurate? Sidious wasn't hindered or amped, so it should be accurate. The visions of Vader killing sidious are more dreams than actual visions, at least compared to Yodas. Wasn't sure what novel you were talking about.

It's pretty consistent that throughout tcw that Anakin and ventress are pretty close to each other in skill and power, and Yoda casually just stole her sabers, and it you argue that that was early war ventress and she would do better late war just look at her performance against dooku, who is inferior to Yoda

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MasterBuster666

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Naah, Sidius still oneshots, lol.

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frozen

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#43 frozen  Moderator

@ieatnettles:

The vision yoda was sent in was literally made by the force sisters, and why would it not be accurate? Sidious wasn't hindered or amped, so it should be accurate. The visions of Vader killing sidious are more dreams than actual visions, at least compared to Yodas. Wasn't sure what novel you were talking about.

Force visions come from the force itself. And the vision of dark Luke curb stomping Sidious comes from From A Certain Point of View: Empire Strikes Back. The vision was so powerful that its outright referred to as being a "disturbance in the force". Sheev foresees that Luke will become this strong if he turns dark, and thus must be tamed and manipulated to his control.Visions are not always accurate.

It's pretty consistent that throughout tcw that Anakin and ventress are pretty close to each other in skill and power, and Yoda casually just stole her sabers, and it you argue that that was early war ventress and she would do better late war just look at her performance against dooku, who is inferior to Yoda

So you say late war Ventress was low diffed by Dooku, which proves she's still sub Yoda. ROTS Anakin is on par with Dooku at base and massively above him with the dark side. So even with ROTS scaling, he would replicate Dooku's showing. TCW scaling just straight up doesn't apply to ROTS. Chee, the official databank and guidebooks all state that ROTS Anakin is >>> TCW.

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Ieatnettles

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@frozen:

@frozen said:

@ieatnettles:

The vision yoda was sent in was literally made by the force sisters, and why would it not be accurate? Sidious wasn't hindered or amped, so it should be accurate. The visions of Vader killing sidious are more dreams than actual visions, at least compared to Yodas. Wasn't sure what novel you were talking about.

Force visions come from the force itself. And the vision of dark Luke curb stomping Sidious comes from From A Certain Point of View: Empire Strikes Back. The vision was so powerful that its outright referred to as being a "disturbance in the force". Sheev foresees that Luke will become this strong if he turns dark, and thus must be tamed and manipulated to his control.Visions are not always accurate.

It's pretty consistent that throughout tcw that Anakin and ventress are pretty close to each other in skill and power, and Yoda casually just stole her sabers, and it you argue that that was early war ventress and she would do better late war just look at her performance against dooku, who is inferior to Yoda

So you say late war Ventress was low diffed by Dooku, which proves she's still sub Yoda. ROTS Anakin is on par with Dooku at base and massively above him with the dark side. So even with ROTS scaling, he would replicate Dooku's showing. TCW scaling just straight up doesn't apply. to ROTS. Chee, the official databank and guidebooks all state that ROTS Anakin is >>> TCW.

Dark side ROTJ luke would be super powerful, he would beat sidious

Anakin is not equal to dooku, dooku is a bit better. So Anakin massively increased in power in way less than a year? Makes so much sense. By your logic Anakin increased more in less than a year then he did over the whole of tcw

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#45 frozen  Moderator

@ieatnettles:

Anakin is not equal to dooku, dooku is a bit better. So Anakin massively increased in power in way less than a year? Makes so much sense. By your logic Anakin increased more in less than a year then he did over the whole of tcw

Anakin increasing massively is not a stretch. Why do you think that is? Chee stated that the ''my powers have doubled'' comment is literal. The guidebooks state its literal. We have statements attesting that Dooku and Anakin are more powerful than ever in ROTS. Etc.

ESB to ROTJ is only a 1 year gap. Luke went from getting low diffed by Vader to his equal in 1 year. AOTC through to ROTS is 3 years. Yoda's stated to be Dooku's equal in the force in AOTC, yet by ROTS, he is on par with Sidious. If you're going to argue that there's little increase, then ROTS Yoda is on par with Dooku in the force... and Dooku is stated below darkside ROTS Anakin. So all roads lead back to a sub ROTS Anakin Yoda.

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@frozen said:

@ieatnettles:

Anakin is not equal to dooku, dooku is a bit better. So Anakin massively increased in power in way less than a year? Makes so much sense. By your logic Anakin increased more in less than a year then he did over the whole of tcw

Anakin increasing massively is not a stretch. Why do you think that is? Chee stated that the ''my powers have doubled'' comment is literal. The guidebooks state its literal. We have statements attesting that Dooku and Anakin are more powerful than ever in ROTS. Etc.

ESB to ROTJ is only a 1 year gap. Luke went from getting low diffed by Vader to his equal in 1 year. AOTC through to ROTS is 3 years. Yoda's stated to be Dooku's equal in the force in AOTC, yet by ROTS, he is on par with Sidious. If you're going to argue that there's little increase, then ROTS Yoda is on par with Dooku in the force... and Dooku is stated below darkside ROTS Anakin. So all roads lead back to a sub ROTS Anakin Yoda.

If Anakin doubled in power do did dooku and Kenobi, which is just unrealistic. Vader was severely hindered in his fight with Luke, more hindered than luke was. Yoda was defending in his force fight with dooku, not attacking, all he did was just dismiss dookus' force attacks, that hardly puts them at equal. Dooku is < darkside Anakin. Rots Yoda<rots dooku<Anakin<ventress. Chee's opinion is just that, an opinion, not backed up by feats and scaling at all.

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#47  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@ieatnettles:

If Anakin doubled in power do did dooku and Kenobi, which is just unrealistic.

Nah, that's the way it was in legends. We actually have statements attesting to this, so its not just headcanon.

was severely hindered in his fight with Luke, more hindered than luke was.

Sidious, Obi and Yoda all think that Luke's ready for Vader and they all explicitly state Vader's not conflicted. So in their minds, Luke = non conflicted Vader. Unless you're willing to argue that all 3 characters are wrong, that scaling stands. We also have statements saying they're equal outside of the fight and that Sidious thinks Luke's power and potential were perfect. Sidious would only replace Vader with a new apprentice if said apprentice is at the very least on par with Vader.

Yoda was defending in his force fight with dooku, not attacking, all he did was just dismiss dookus' force attacks, that hardly puts them at equal.

They both displayed TK at one another, and we have numerous sources saying that they were equal in the force. The official audio description also states that Dooku matched Yoda's strength in the duel. So augmented strength is on par.

Dooku is < darkside Anakin. Rots Yoda<rots dooku<Anakin<ventress. Chee's opinion is just that, an opinion, not backed up by feats and scaling at all.

Nothing suggests Ventress is close to ROTS Anakin. You realize that ROTS Anakin is clapping the likes of Maul or Ventress?

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@frozen said:

@ieatnettles:

If Anakin doubled in power do did dooku and Kenobi, which is just unrealistic.

Nah, that's the way it was in legends. We actually have statements attesting to this, so its not just headcanon.

was severely hindered in his fight with Luke, more hindered than luke was.

Sidious, Obi and Yoda all think that Luke's ready for Vader and they all explicitly state Vader's not conflicted. So in their minds, Luke = non conflicted Vader. Unless you're willing to argue that all 3 characters are wrong, that scaling stands. We also have statements saying they're equal outside of the fight and that Sidious thinks Luke's power and potential were perfect. Sidious would only replace Vader with a new apprentice if said apprentice is at the very least on par with Vader.

Yoda was defending in his force fight with dooku, not attacking, all he did was just dismiss dookus' force attacks, that hardly puts them at equal.

They both displayed TK at one another, and we have numerous sources saying that they were equal in the force. The official audio description also states that Dooku matched Yoda's strength in the duel. So augmented strength is on par.

Dooku is < darkside Anakin. Rots Yoda<rots dooku<Anakin<ventress. Chee's opinion is just that, an opinion, not backed up by feats and scaling at all.

Nothing suggests Ventress is close to ROTS Anakin. You realize that ROTS Anakin is clapping the likes of Maul or Ventress?

There is no way dooku doubled in power in less than a year, as anakin was already pressing him before his supposed 2x increase in power, so if Anakin doubled in power and dooku didn't he would stomp him in like under 10 seconds. Yoda has to augment his strength more than dooku does due to him being a tiny green humanoid frog. Rots Anakin would mid diff ventress, based on him struggling with an ahsoka level combatant less than a year before rots. Anakin is not low diffing maul, he high diff him. Maul and ventress aren't close either, ventress struggled with savage while maul decimated him in under 15 seconds

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maybe maul honestly