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#1 Edited by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio

TheNewBlueBeetle007 (Pre-New 52 Despero)

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Lvenger (Silver Surfer)

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Rules

  • In character
  • Standard incapitation
  • No prep
  • Basic knowledge on each other capabilities
  • Location: Abandon New York City
  • No BFR
  • You can only use THREE scans throughout the entire individual allocated battle / CAV --- not three from one issue, but three throughout the entire debate
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#2 Edited by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Edited by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: Uh dude massive mistake on my behalf. Darkraiden is already against Artyom!

I'll have to edit it. Sorry.

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#5 Posted by Frozen (21085 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: Anyway, I corrected my mistake. You're against Lvenger instead.

I'd say no to the links. You can post 3 scans, but other than that, no links.

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#6 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: good luck and have fun!

Ironic, isn't it, that the Despero fan is going up against Despero?

Would you like to go first or should I?

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#7 Posted by chaos911 (4166 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for votes please!

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#8 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by icecold14 (6767 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for votes amigos :)

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#10 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: Heh yeah quite ironic indeed. It's up to you, what's your preference for posting first or second?

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#12 Posted by johnfrank120 (6702 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for votes please.

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#13 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Edited by captain_batman_FTW (8905 posts) - - Show Bio

How do I have like an sight over these tourney rounds? I want to read them all.

Tag me for votes, and good luck to you both.

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#16 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Edited by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

Intro

(@frozen can I use a picture to make it visually appealing? Not scans just what I have below. If you say no I'll remove this)

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For those that aren't familiar with Despero, you will undoubtedly be thinking, what on Earth is that ugly purple creature? Well, my friends, that is the intelligent, the powerful, the conquering powerhouse know as Despero! Despero is a team buster who has soloed many versions of the Justice League, and is known as an enemy of J'onn J'onnz, the Martian Manhunter. Like J'onn, Despero is one of the most versatile characters in comics, and although Surfer is quite versatile himself, I believe Despero completely outclasses Surfer in many aspects.

Mental Powers

Despero has many mental powers including illusions, mind control, TK, TP, and psionic energy blasts. I'd even argue that with the exception of Starro he's the best Pre-52 Telepath there is.

  • Consistently defeats Martian Manhunter in TP battles - just to put that into perspective, Martian Manhunter has resisted the TP of a few thousand White Martians before
  • Once mentally overpowered both Aquaman and J'onn
  • In Crisis of Conscience Despero, in the guise of Luthor enslaved a plethora of heroes including Shazam, Green Lantern, Batman, Power Girl, and others, all at once
  • Used his psionic powers against Supergirl to defeat her

Physical Prowess

Despero is consistently one of the strongest and most invulnerable characters in comics. His physical feats are much better than Surfer's suggesting that Despero could defeat Norrin in a pure H2H fight. Seriously, his strength is pimp hand level+

  • In Virtue and Vice Despero tossed around Hawkman, Superman and Shazam like rag dolls - those are 2 100 tonners and 1 guy that's maybe 25-50 tons
  • Also in Virtue and Vice Despero shrugged off hits from the aforementioned characters as well as Power Girl, Wonder Woman and crushed WW's face
  • Crushed Martian Manhunter's skull with one hand
  • Owned MMH in a single punch
  • Lifted the Rock of Eternity - the rock that is said to have infinite weight being the focal point of magic in DC
  • Once Starro beheaded Despero, and Despero survived and regenerated.

Other Combat Feats

Despero has consistently soloed the A-list JLA.

Once he even fought the JLA, Lobo, Conglomerate and JLE at the same time!

Despero was fighting - and defeating - the Justice League Task Force, until Kilowog showed up with a plot device.

Speaking of plot devices, that's really the only way that Despero has been consistently defeated. Against the JLI, which included Guy Gardner, Steel, Martian Manhunter, Gypsy, Mr. Miracle Android, and Ted Kord, he was tanking their attacks and telepathically defeating J'onn, and he was only defeated when MMH used his Mayavanna (once in a lifetime ability to put someone in an illusion of what they most desire) plot device to subdue him.

In JLA/JSA, as I mentioned before, he was soloing Power Girl, Wonder Woman, Hawkman, Superman, and Shazam with little effort, and again fell to the plot device of the team using Johnny Sorrow's powers against Despero.

Surfer has some pretty crazy durability feats but nothing to put him on the level of Despero. Against the teams that Despero has defeated, Norrin would stand no chance.

How the Battle Plays Out

In this battle I first see Despero mentally assaulting Surfer. Although Surfer has TP of his own, I've never seen Surfer doing anything as impressive as mentally defeating Martian Manhunter. If he survives the initial assault, he certainly won't be unharmed, and is overall incapable of taking Despero in a mental battle.

If Surfer somehow avoids engaging in a TP battle, he will undoubtedly lose to Despero's awesome strength and durability. While Norrin is the faster of the two, I don't see his speed being a problem as Despero has consistently tagged the Flash and has some degree of Super Speed of his own.

The other scenario is Surfer using all of his powers like matter manipulation, time manipulation etc. which I also don't see happening because Surfer is in character.

I await your rebuttal.

@lvenger

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#18 Posted by micah007123 (10836 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for votes please.

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#19 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: I've just been busy with some personal issues but I'll get a response up at some point today.

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#21 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: Apologies for the delay, here's my opener for the man who sacrificed his soul to save his planet Zenn La and his love Shalla Ball, a Herald to the World Eater Galactus, the gleaming sentinel of the spaceways, a lonely wanderer of space protecting the cosmos time and time again with his Power Cosmic endowment from Galactus himself. This is the role and life of Norrin Radd, aka The Silver Surfer.

No Caption Provided

Though Despero is a fearsome physical beast and a dangerous telepath, I believe Norrin's ranged advantaged coupled with his more impressive versatility will outclass Despero's two advantages in this fight. I mean this is just a summary of his powers I made in another CAV:

  • Energy Absorption, Manipulation and Projection (can do so on almost every kind of energy in the universe)
  • Matter and Molecular Manipulation
  • Quantifiable Superhuman Speed and Reflexes (his speed has been captured on panel so we know how fast he can move. This does not apply to Sentry/Void)
  • Superhuman Durability (He's way more durable than Sentry)
  • Regeneration (Too sad for you)
  • Class 100+ Superhuman Strength (and can amp himself with The Power Cosmic to go even further)
  • Cosmic Senses
  • Force Field Creation
  • Telepathy
  • Telekinesis
  • Intangibility

Suffice to say, your arguments thus far have several holes to exploit.

Mental Powers

I'd even argue that with the exception of Starro he's the best Pre-52 Telepath there is.

A dubious statement given that there are a plethora of cosmic, godlike and nigh omnipotent beings in the universe so I fail to see how this statement is applicable to the entirety of the DCU.

Physical Prowess

Despero is consistently one of the strongest and most invulnerable characters in comics. His physical feats are much better than Surfer's suggesting that Despero could defeat Norrin in a pure H2H fight. Seriously, his strength is pimp hand level+

I can't exactly disagree with this statement, Despero holds the physical edge over Norrin by a notable margin. However, my counter is a simple but ingenious solution, Norrin is mostly a ranged fighter and tends to rely on his Power Cosmic and array of other powers before entering physical combat. If he did decide to fight Despero at close range, he'd quickly realise his mistake and get out of arm's reach.

  • Crushed Martian Manhunter's skull with one hand

You missed some context out here, like the obvious fact that this occurred during J'onn's Mayavanna induced hallucination so that's not a physical feat at all.

  • Lifted the Rock of Eternity - the rock that is said to have infinite weight being the focal point of magic in DC

Apologies but this point does not reinforce your so called physical advantage. Despero lifting ‘’everything’’ and an object which is infinite is a no-limits fallacy. You’re indirectly implying that Despero can therefore lifting anything less; that could be perhaps, a string of 20 planets, which clearly is not in Despero’s strength range based on feats and quantifiable evidence.

This idea of characters lifting objects which are of "infinite weight" is far less quantifiable than characters moving planets, which can be quantified, namely because the ‘’infinite’’ argument is based on a no-limits fallacy in of itself. Hence, this feat cannot be used to highball Despero's strength out of Surfer's reach entirely like you're trying to do. For example, Superman and Captain Marvel have lifted a book of ‘’infinite’’ pages yet deeply struggled to pull The Earth even with extra help.

  • Once Starro beheaded Despero, and Despero survived and regenerated.

Again, this isn't a physical feat at all, it's a regeneration/healing feat. And I can assure you that based on Surfer's massive energy projection and matter manipulation advantages will keep Despero from regenerating here.

In any case, Surfer has one trick card to avoid Despero hitting him hard enough to KO him and that is intangibility.

  • He's phased through the walls of The Baxter Building.
  • He's phased through a wall to surprise The Mole Man.
  • And he's phased through a ship and its controls to take over it.

Hence, Despero cannot hurt what he can't touch.

Surfer has some pretty crazy durability feats but nothing to put him on the level of Despero. Against the teams that Despero has defeated, Norrin would stand no chance.

I disagree based on Norrin's durability feats.

  • He's withstood a direct word from Black Bolt on the moon without any damage.
  • He's shrugged off a blast from Michael Korvac that would have destroyed a planet.
  • He's tanked a backhand from Galactus, and Galactus was capable of punching Old King Thor through the Earth and into the moon, splitting it in two. Which shows Galactus has some hefty striking power himself, yet Surfer survived a hit from him.
  • Not to mention that it took over 10 hits for the Mad Titan Thanos himself to actually beat Norrin to near death. And they were all one after the other, something Despero won't get the chance to do in this fight.

Now allow me to outline the Silver Surfer's two major advantages in this fight:

Energy Projection

So Despero can take a lot of physical damage but as someone who has a PM full of his feats, his energy resistance is nowhere near as quantifiable or extensive. Thus Silver Surfer's path to eventual victory lies in one way via his incredibly potent energy projection.

  • Surfer can very easily nuke his foes with atomic level blasts as if it were child's play.
  • He's one shotted the planet sized ship of The Enslaver, whose size of the ship dwarfed even the Earth itself.
  • Surfer has also one shotted a Thanosi clone, which has even given Thor and Hulk trouble in the past.
  • Plus there's that little old 3 consistent planet busting energy feats Surfer has too. I doubt Despero will survive many of those once Surfer takes the gloves off.

So Despero's limited energy resistance should lead to his downfall here as blunt force durability does not equal energy resistance.

Matter Manipulation

You've said in your final part of your post that you don't see Surfer using Matter Manipulation due to being in character. Well there you're wholly wrong.

  • Surfer was willing to atomise a random tiger mutant from Wundagore after trying to reason with it. I doubt he'd hold it back against Despero once he realises the power and evil threat he faces.
  • He's restrained Nebula by transmuting her own armour into a coccoon, who's also a low level threat compared to Despero.
  • Heck he's even managed to rob the oxygen of a foe whilst underwater which, whilst non lethal, is still proof he will use matter manipulation in character.

Again, Despero's resistance against this kind of versatility isn't that well known to me so Surfer's Matter Manipulation is another way he can end up incapacitating or even killing Despero despite being in character.

How The Battle Plays Out

So here's how I see things playing out instead. Surfer will start blasting away at Despero and increasing the potency of his blasts as needed to put him down. Despero's few feats of energy resistance are tanking one of Doctor Light's and Guy Gardner's blasts and neither of them are close to the level of energy Surfer can put out.

As for your telepathic point, it is a possibility but Surfer has withstood a telepathic assault from Moondragon in possession of the Infinite mental power of the Soul Gem, he took a battle with a creature who leeched his Power Cosmic onto the Mental Plane where his power was at its strongest to stop its influence and he resisted a crazed Mr Fantastic's attempts to take over his mind and soul with the Soul Gem. I believe this proves Surfer can hold out against Despero long enough to fire a cosmic bolt at his foe to disrupt Despero's concentration and pepper him with more potent energy blasts than Despero can withstand.

And then there's matter manipulation, with which Surfer could manipulate his entire surroundings of New York to his advantage against Despero or restrain/atomise him completely. And he does use such abilities in character against lesser foes than Despero so I fail to see why Surfer won't use it here when he's consistently used it in battles before.

Surfer doesn't stand a chance of winning a physical confrontation but in a ranged encounter, Surfer's chances rise dramatically whereas Despero's fall exponentially.

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#22 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: cool, I'll have my response up in a few hours.

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#23 Posted by Frisky4 (9216 posts) - - Show Bio

Neato. T4V

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#24 Edited by Kingant27 (16635 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by ancient_god (6567 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Edited by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2

Rebuttals

@lvenger said:

Mental Powers

A dubious statement given that there are a plethora of cosmic, godlike and nigh omnipotent beings in the universe so I fail to see how this statement is applicable to the entirety of the DCU.

I meant among the non-godlike/omnipotents. I thought that was implied. Anyway, the point was, he's a damn amazing telepath.

Physical Prowess

Apologies but this point does not reinforce your so called physical advantage. Despero lifting ‘’everything’’ and an object which is infinite is a no-limits fallacy. You’re indirectly implying that Despero can therefore lifting anything less; that could be perhaps, a string of 20 planets, which clearly is not in Despero’s strength range based on feats and quantifiable evidence.

This idea of characters lifting objects which are of "infinite weight" is far less quantifiable than characters moving planets, which can be quantified, namely because the ‘’infinite’’ argument is based on a no-limits fallacy in of itself. Hence, this feat cannot be used to highball Despero's strength out of Surfer's reach entirely like you're trying to do. For example, Superman and Captain Marvel have lifted a book of ‘’infinite’’ pages yet deeply struggled to pull The Earth even with extra help.

I didn't imply anything. I simply stated that he lifted a rock that was said to have infinite mass. And I wouldn't worry too much about his strength, he smashed Superman and Shazam together.

  • Once Starro beheaded Despero, and Despero survived and regenerated.

Again, this isn't a physical feat at all, it's a regeneration/healing feat. And I can assure you that based on Surfer's massive energy projection and matter manipulation advantages will keep Despero from regenerating here.

I consider Regeneration in the realm of physical feats; if you disagree that's cool

In any case, Surfer has one trick card to avoid Despero hitting him hard enough to KO him and that is intangibility.

  • He's phased through the walls of The Baxter Building.
  • He's phased through a wall to surprise The Mole Man.
  • And he's phased through a ship and its controls to take over it.

Hm, but has he used intangibility during battle? Surfer is notorious for not being as good in combat as he should.

I disagree based on Norrin's durability feats.

  • He's withstood a direct word from Black Bolt on the moon without any damage. Was this the Skrull Black Bolt? And I highly doubt it was without any damage. Could you PM me with the feat?
  • He's shrugged off a blast from Michael Korvac that would have destroyed a planet. Despero's done better (kept on feating after repeated shots from Superman, Shazam, Power Girl, Wonder Woman, Hawkman etc.
  • He's tanked a backhand from Galactus, and Galactus was capable of punching Old King Thor through the Earth and into the moon, splitting it in two. Which shows Galactus has some hefty striking power himself, yet Surfer survived a hit from him.
  • Not to mention that it took over 10 hits for the Mad Titan Thanos himself to actually beat Norrin to near death. And they were all one after the other, something Despero won't get the chance to do in this fight. And yet he was physically defeated by Thor (who is a Superman level being, the kind that Despero eats for breakfast). My point is that although SS is versatile he's highly inconsistent, and almost never uses the full range of his abilities.

Now allow me to outline the Silver Surfer's two major advantages in this fight:

Energy Projection

So Despero can take a lot of physical damage but as someone who has a PM full of his feats, his energy resistance is nowhere near as quantifiable or extensive. Thus Silver Surfer's path to eventual victory lies in one way via his incredibly potent energy projection.

  • Surfer can very easily nuke his foes with atomic level blasts as if it were child's play. Does he do this in character, against a random opponent? I think not, especially considering his nature.
  • He's one shotted the planet sized ship of The Enslaver, whose size of the ship dwarfed even the Earth itself.
  • Surfer has also one shotted a Thanosi clone, which has even given Thor and Hulk trouble in the past.
  • Plus there's that little old 3 consistent planet busting energy feats Surfer has too. I doubt Despero will survive many of those once Surfer takes the gloves off. His feats seem to disagree with you. This is a guy that once took the blast of a bloodlusted Guy Gardner - with no ill effect. He shrugged it off like it was nothing, and then defeated Guy. Might I remind you that the GL ring has many feats of planet busting as well. I'm not saying that he's immune to energy attacks, but that feat alone, with no contrary feats, should be enough to say that Surfer isn't defeating him with energy blasts.

So Despero's limited energy resistance should lead to his downfall here as blunt force durability does not equal energy resistance.

True, but he didn't even flinch when hit with Guy's blast. He similarly kept fighting when hit with Red Tornado's blasts, and Doctor Light.

Matter Manipulation

You've said in your final part of your post that you don't see Surfer using Matter Manipulation due to being in character. Well there you're wholly wrong.

  • Surfer was willing to atomise a random tiger mutant from Wundagore after trying to reason with it. I doubt he'd hold it back against Despero once he realises the power and evil threat he faces.
  • He's restrained Nebula by transmuting her own armour into a coccoon, who's also a low level threat compared to Despero.
  • Heck he's even managed to rob the oxygen of a foe whilst underwater which, whilst non lethal, is still proof he will use matter manipulation in character.

Again, Despero's resistance against this kind of versatility isn't that well known to me so Surfer's Matter Manipulation is another way he can end up incapacitating or even killing Despero despite being in character.

I don't know man... just doing it once (the other two weren't in combat) doesn't mean it's in character for him. The few Surfer fights that I have seen (Surfer vs Thor) involve him holding back and not using all of his powers... I mean this is a dude that an slow down time. He should be near unstoppable. Instead he's beaten by Thor (Twice, 3 if you count the Power Gem one), who's had some pretty low end feats in the past.

How The Battle Plays Out

So here's how I see things playing out instead. Surfer will start blasting away at Despero and increasing the potency of his blasts as needed to put him down. Despero's few feats of energy resistance are tanking one of Doctor Light's and Guy Gardner's blasts and neither of them are close to the level of energy Surfer can put out.

Guy's should be... I mean Guy looked pretty bloodlusted in that scan... he said, "Time to die, maggot!" and we all know how powerful the GL ring is. And even if Surfer's max level of energy is higher, which I am unsure of, that was a bloodlusted Guy compared to a random encounter Surfer, who has more morals than Guy to begin with.

As for your telepathic point, it is a possibility but Surfer has withstood a telepathic assault from Moondragon in possession of the Infinite mental power of the Soul Gem, he took a battle with a creature who leeched his Power Cosmic onto the Mental Plane where his power was at its strongest to stop its influence and he resisted a crazed Mr Fantastic's attempts to take over his mind and soul with the Soul Gem. I believe this proves Surfer can hold out against Despero long enough to fire a cosmic bolt at his foe to disrupt Despero's concentration and pepper him with more potent energy blasts than Despero can withstand.

Would you care to educate me on the best feats of Mind Gem Moondragon? If the Soul Gem truly has infinite mental power, then how could it possibly fail against Surfer? Seems like PIS, and to some extent a NLF and it's just like the situation with the Rock of Eternity.

Martian Manhunter has TP'd the Spectre, and also has held out against thousands of fully trained White Martians trying to infiltrate his mind. Despero has not only used TP against, but mind controlled this very man (martian?), multiple times.

And then there's matter manipulation, with which Surfer could manipulate his entire surroundings of New York to his advantage against Despero or restrain/atomise him completely. And he does use such abilities in character against lesser foes than Despero so I fail to see why Surfer won't use it here when he's consistently used it in battles before.

He's used it. But not consistently. Firestorm once went absolute zero on Killer Frost, does that mean he'll do that against any opponent that he sees? No, it doesn't.

Surfer doesn't stand a chance of winning a physical confrontation but in a ranged encounter, Surfer's chances rise dramatically whereas Despero's fall exponentially.

That's it. We no longer need to discuss the physical aspect. You've admitted he would lose.

Despero's chances fall based on the probability of Surfer using the full extent of his powers, which is very, very, very low, considering he has been defeated by much lesser opponents than Despero in the past.

*end of rebuttal*

Morals

I will admit here that Despero stands no chance against a morals off, bloodlusted Surfer that uses 100% of his powers to the best of his abilities. However, this is quite clearly morals on, and we haven't even taken that into consideration thus far. Despero severely lacks morals to begin with, I've never seen him job, while Surfer jobs quite often. Despero wouldn't hesitate to kill Surfer, while Surfer definitely would.

The thing is, with basic knowledge, Despero isn't going to hold back at all. He's going to pile skyscraper upon skyscraper upon Surfer while assaulting him mentally in ferocious combination, unrelenting until he mentally detects that Surfer is down. Can't say the same about Surfer.

And considering this is New York City, what if he took a civilian as a hostage, or forced a civilian to attack Norrin? Surfer would have no choice but to surrender, as he's not going to attack a civilian.

Speed

I'm surprised you haven't addressed this yet, but in anticipation, I'm going to say it now. Surfer's speed will not be a problem at all for Despero, considering he has tagged the almighty, omniversal threat known as Wally West!!! (the omnipotent part is a joke, but he has tagged the Flash before)

Energy Blasts

Taking a full power blast from a bloodlusted Guy Gardner without so much as a scratch should be enough to ensure that Despero is not going to be put down by energy blasts on Surfer's level. He's taken blasts from Dr. Light, and (I don't know if this counts as an energy blast but I have nothing to lost by saying it) Red Tornado.

Summary

Despero completely outclasses Surfer physically, as you've already admitted. As far as TP goes, I believe mind controlling the guy that TP'd the Spectre is a better feat than Mind Gem Moondragon, unless you can show me a Mind Gem Moondragon feat that is greater. It has to be greater because mind controlling is much more difficult than resisting. Surfer doesn't utilize his entire powerset in character, and that will be his ultimate downfall here.

@frisky4 said:

Neato. T4V

@ancient_god said:

@kingant27 said:

@thenewbluebeetle007: @lvenger: Nice work so far, I will be following this one; and tag me for voting please.

Will do.

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#27 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9201 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting.

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#28 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh wow, I just realized that lvenger is a HOF debater o_o

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#30 Posted by HeirToTheKingdom (9201 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Edited by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: do we have a time limit?

@lvenger: I can wait.

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#34 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: All right time I got my second rebuttal up sooner rather than later.

Round 2 - Rebuttals

Physicals

I didn't imply anything. I simply stated that he lifted a rock that was said to have infinite mass. And I wouldn't worry too much about his strength, he smashed Superman and Shazam together.

Unfortunately, by using that feat, you've committed the mistake I've shown already. If Despero did really have infinite levels of strength based on that one feat, he would be capable of achieving any possible strength feat imaginable and wouldn't be capable of losing any fight. Such a position is not only not a tenable one to hold, it isn't true either considering that powerhouses like Superman, Wonder Woman and Power Girl can fight him and temporarily gain ground.

I'm not one to deny how impressive smashing two poweehouses together is but you're forgetting that Surfer is not a mainly physical fighter. He relies on his Power Cosmic, energy blasts and versatility far more than he does on physical battles, which is what will give him the edge over Despero.

I consider Regeneration in the realm of physical feats; if you disagree that's cool

Regardless of what category regeneration falls into as part of a power set, Surfer has equally notable regenerative feats too. So how do you propose Despero can keep Norrin down rather than vice versa?

Hm, but has he used intangibility during battle? Surfer is notorious for not being as good in combat as he should.s

Well good thing there's another way Surfer can turn the possible danger of Despero's physical superiority around and that's by the healing powers the Power Cosmic grants him. He's healed creatures that have had holes blown in them by plasma bolts, prevented a woman shot by a bullet from dying and restored Thor back to full strength. I believe that proves Surfer can repair the damage Despero might do to him if he does cut up close to Norrin.

Energy Projection

True, but he didn't even flinch when hit with Guy's blast. He similarly kept fighting when hit with Red Tornado's blasts, and Doctor Light.

  • Guy is far from the most powerful of the human Green Lanterns. I'd say he has the weakest overall feats come to think of it. He doesn't measure up to Hal's heat of the sun blast or Kyle planet busting Oa. So Despero tanking Guy's blast is nowhere a big deal for your case.
  • Red Tornado's winds are a completely different kind of attack from Surfer's Cosmic Blasts so it's folly to try and correlate these two kinds of attacks.
  • Similarly to Guy, Doctor Light's energy projection is far from impressive as well. Unless you can prove she's a powerful energy blaster, I doubt there's anything else you have left to defend Despero against Norrin's very potent energy blast advantage.

Matter Manipulation

I don't know man... just doing it once (the other two weren't in combat) doesn't mean it's in character for him. The few Surfer fights that I have seen (Surfer vs Thor) involve him holding back and not using all of his powers... I mean this is a dude that an slow down time. He should be near unstoppable. Instead he's beaten by Thor (Twice, 3 if you count the Power Gem one), who's had some pretty low end feats in the past.

And you're forgetting that on these battle forum threads, characters fight to the best of their abilities without writer or plot convenience limiting their performance. I have demonstrated that Surfer is more than willing to use matter manipulation on several occasions. Given that Surfer has used it against far less powerful foes than Despero, like a random mutated tiger and Nebula, I fail to see how Surfer won't eventually fall back on this tactic when facing a dangerous physical threat of Despero. Surfer hasn't used his slow down time feats in combat so I can't argue he will do so here but you're utilising faulty ABC logic if you think it's good enough to say that since Surfer doesn't use his powerset against Thor, he won't use it against Despero.

How The Battle Plays Out

Guy's should be... I mean Guy looked pretty bloodlusted in that scan... he said, "Time to die, maggot!" and we all know how powerful the GL ring is. And even if Surfer's max level of energy is higher, which I am unsure of, that was a bloodlusted Guy compared to a random encounter Surfer, who has more morals than Guy to begin with.

As mentioned before, no GL has the same level of feats as another. And Hal, John and Kyle all >Guy in terms of their feats and willpower. And not even top tier Lanterns match Surfer's level of energy projections either. In regards to the bloodlusted point, two of Surfer's planet busting feats have been him acting in character. Against Ravenous and Korvac, he just outright blew up the planets they were fighting on, one to make a point and the other to escape from the planet. His fight with Morg was an angry/pi$$ed off Surfer so your point applies there. But as Surfer sees Despero is a deadly foe, he'll eventually resort to more lethal measures in that regard. He's not against killing like some heroes are.

Would you care to educate me on the best feats of Mind Gem Moondragon? If the Soul Gem truly has infinite mental power, then how could it possibly fail against Surfer? Seems like PIS, and to some extent a NLF and it's just like the situation with the Rock of Eternity.

In this case, the Surfer is backed by a near inifinite power source in the Power Cosmic coupled with impressive willpower himself which is why he eventually overcome its thrall. I'll use my first scan to illustrate the point.

No Caption Provided

Martian Manhunter has TP'd the Spectre, and also has held out against thousands of fully trained White Martians trying to infiltrate his mind. Despero has not only used TP against, but mind controlled this very man (martian?), multiple times.

You're relying a little too much on ABC logic here. It's not a dead certainty that Surfer will be overpowered telepathically by Despero, or that he can assault Despero before he gets TPed.

He's used it. But not consistently. Firestorm once went absolute zero on Killer Frost, does that mean he'll do that against any opponent that he sees? No, it doesn't.

I've outlined my treatise on consistency use of feats previously in this post so that makes this point moot as of now.

That's it. We no longer need to discuss the physical aspect. You've admitted he would lose.

Despero's chances fall based on the probability of Surfer using the full extent of his powers, which is very, very, very low, considering he has been defeated by much lesser opponents than Despero in the past.

I've made no such admission in the slightest. A fanciful invention on your part entirely, especially when your arguments haven't been convincing enough as of currently.

Despero's chances do indeed fall based on Surfer using the full extent of his powers and as I've proven, this is far more likely to happen than you'd care to admit. It's a completely fallacious claim to use Surfer's low end showings of defeat in an attempt to prove he'll lose to a foe like Despero. Characters should be judged on their own merits and feats, which is how I've shown Surfer does indeed stand a chance against Despero.

Morals

I will admit here that Despero stands no chance against a morals off, bloodlusted Surfer that uses 100% of his powers to the best of his abilities. However, this is quite clearly morals on, and we haven't even taken that into consideration thus far. Despero severely lacks morals to begin with, I've never seen him job, while Surfer jobs quite often. Despero wouldn't hesitate to kill Surfer, while Surfer definitely would.

Well I have, unfortunately for your side of the debate, you haven't quite gotten there yet. You aren't wrong in stating Despero doesn't really have any morals in his combat style but yet again you make a poor mistake of trying to use Surfer's jobbing showings as proof of his ability to lose to Despero. We don't consider jobbing or low showings for these characters, especially when there's usually context behind those scenarios. You'd be wise to remember that debating tip. But as I mentioned earlier, Surfer is not adverse to killing and will do what needs to be done in many of his fights as a last resort.

The thing is, with basic knowledge, Despero isn't going to hold back at all. He's going to pile skyscraper upon skyscraper upon Surfer while assaulting him mentally in ferocious combination, unrelenting until he mentally detects that Surfer is down. Can't say the same about Surfer.

Despero goes for hand to hand confrontation, not throwing buildings on his foes all the time. This is clearly an invention on your part of Despero's battle tactics when we go by how they're acting in character. The TP can be resisted by Surfer, since he can go to the mental plane which is the source of his Power Cosmic and Despero's telepathic powers would have far less affect.

No Caption Provided

And considering this is New York City, what if he took a civilian as a hostage, or forced a civilian to attack Norrin? Surfer would have no choice but to surrender, as he's not going to attack a civilian.

Since when does Despero take hostages? He's powerful, and proud enough, to fight his own battles.

Speed

I'm surprised you haven't addressed this yet, but in anticipation, I'm going to say it now. Surfer's speed will not be a problem at all for Despero, considering he has tagged the almighty, omniversal threat known as Wally West!!! (the omnipotent part is a joke, but he has tagged the Flash before)

I think it might be harder than you care to admit. Surfer has 2 microsecond reaction feats, 2 nanosecond reaction feats and his board can basically fly around on its own and be used as its own weapon. This is how Surfer suckered Beta Ray Bill in their battle by having the board wack him from behind so it's definitely a tactic which could be employed on Despero too. Suffice to say, it's not going to be easy for Despero to tag Surfer.

Energy Blasts

Taking a full power blast from a bloodlusted Guy Gardner without so much as a scratch should be enough to ensure that Despero is not going to be put down by energy blasts on Surfer's level. He's taken blasts from Dr. Light, and (I don't know if this counts as an energy blast but I have nothing to lost by saying it) Red Tornado.

As stated before, Guy is not on the other human Lanterns' energy projection level, let alone Surfer's so his bloodlusted state makes little difference. Dr Light is also not as powerful an energy user as Surfer and Red Tornado doesn't count. All in all, you have yet to show that Surfer couldn't blast Despero into smitheereens eventually.

Summary

Whilst Despero is the physically superior combatant, Surfer is the superior energy combatant as well as being more versatile than Despero by miles. He has many ways to attack Despero at range whether by powerful Cosmic blasts, matter manipulation or telekeniis. And Surfer posesses just enough TP resistance to hold off Despero's mental might whilst possessing the versatility and range to bring this monstrous foe down.

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#35 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I'll try to get a response up by tomorrow

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#36 Posted by Claymore1998 (16541 posts) - - Show Bio

Awesome debate from both side. Could I please get a tag for vote when this is over.

I am happy Moondragon and her capabilities are being brought up. She has some of the coolest telepathic feats with the mind gem ^_^

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#37 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 3

First: @frozen: am i allowed to use flame of py'tar feats for despero? Because that would give him matter manipulation, limited reality warping and the like.

Rebuttals

@lvenger said:

@thenewbluebeetle007: All right time I got my second rebuttal up sooner rather than later.

Round 2 - Rebuttals

Physicals

I didn't imply anything. I simply stated that he lifted a rock that was said to have infinite mass. And I wouldn't worry too much about his strength, he smashed Superman and Shazam together.

Unfortunately, by using that feat, you've committed the mistake I've shown already. If Despero did really have infinite levels of strength based on that one feat, he would be capable of achieving any possible strength feat imaginable and wouldn't be capable of losing any fight. Such a position is not only not a tenable one to hold, it isn't true either considering that powerhouses like Superman, Wonder Woman and Power Girl can fight him and temporarily gain ground.

I never said he had infinite levels of strength. But he must be pretty damn strong to lift it. At this point it appears that you're just trying to make me look bad, which I hope is not the case.

I'm not one to deny how impressive smashing two poweehouses together is but you're forgetting that Surfer is not a mainly physical fighter. He relies on his Power Cosmic, energy blasts and versatility far more than he does on physical battles, which is what will give him the edge over Despero.

I consider Regeneration in the realm of physical feats; if you disagree that's cool

Regardless of what category regeneration falls into as part of a power set, Surfer has equally notable regenerative feats too. So how do you propose Despero can keep Norrin down rather than vice versa?

Hm, but has he used intangibility during battle? Surfer is notorious for not being as good in combat as he should.s

Well good thing there's another way Surfer can turn the possible danger of Despero's physical superiority around and that's by the healing powers the Power Cosmic grants him. He's healed creatures that have had holes blown in them by plasma bolts, prevented a woman shot by a bullet from dying and restored Thor back to full strength. I believe that proves Surfer can repair the damage Despero might do to him if he does cut up close to Norrin.

No question, this will be a long and glorious battle due to both of their regenerative abilities. But we have reason to believe that Despero will come out on top. Remember, this is a man that was physically soloing Superman, Shazam, Power Girl, and Hawkman. Does Surfer have any such battle feats that put him on Despero's level physically?

Energy Projection

True, but he didn't even flinch when hit with Guy's blast. He similarly kept fighting when hit with Red Tornado's blasts, and Doctor Light.

  • Guy is far from the most powerful of the human Green Lanterns. I'd say he has the weakest overall feats come to think of it. He doesn't measure up to Hal's heat of the sun blast or Kyle planet busting Oa. So Despero tanking Guy's blast is nowhere a big deal for your case. Among humans, you are correct (aside from Simon Baz but he's N52). But that's not exactly saying much, as Hal and Kyle are arguably 2 of the top 3 lanterns ever, and John created a freaking solar system. Anyway, in Green Lantern Corps 20 Guy Gardner was easily able to hold his own against Hal and was even beating him. I wouldn't say that it's not a big deal, either. Guy's willpower has been described as upper echelon, people have said that his ring can't handle his will, that it's yearning to get free and release power. He doesn't have planet busting but once, Guy was able to blast Darkseid with such power that Darkseid was knocked forward about 10 feet (although he got up right after). Meanwhile Despero didn't even flinch when hit with a bloodlusted Guy's blast.
  • Red Tornado's winds are a completely different kind of attack from Surfer's Cosmic Blasts so it's folly to try and correlate these two kinds of attacks. OK
  • Similarly to Guy, Doctor Light's energy projection is far from impressive as well. Unless you can prove she's a powerful energy blaster, I doubt there's anything else you have left to defend Despero against Norrin's very potent energy blast advantage. Dr. Light defeated Starbreaker with her energy blasts. That's pretty impressive IMO. Anyhow, the Guy feat is all I really need, this just showed he can do it consistently.

Matter Manipulation

I don't know man... just doing it once (the other two weren't in combat) doesn't mean it's in character for him. The few Surfer fights that I have seen (Surfer vs Thor) involve him holding back and not using all of his powers... I mean this is a dude that an slow down time. He should be near unstoppable. Instead he's beaten by Thor (Twice, 3 if you count the Power Gem one), who's had some pretty low end feats in the past.

And you're forgetting that on these battle forum threads, characters fight to the best of their abilities without writer or plot convenience limiting their performance.

Uh, not the extent you're saying. This is in character. CIS is still in character. Yes, we don't say Deathstroke is FTL because he tagged the Flash, but Surfer has many instances where he could have used matter manipulation and lost.

I have demonstrated that Surfer is more than willing to use matter manipulation on several occasions.

You showed three examples. How many fights has Surfer had?

Given that Surfer has used it against far less powerful foes than Despero, like a random mutated tiger and Nebula, I fail to see how Surfer won't eventually fall back on this tactic when facing a dangerous physical threat of Despero. Surfer hasn't used his slow down time feats in combat so I can't argue he will do so here but you're utilising faulty ABC logic if you think it's good enough to say that since Surfer doesn't use his powerset against Thor, he won't use it against Despero.

I don't know about ABC logic but Silver Surfer just doesn't use his powers consistently. Maybe he wants to have a more honorable fight against more powerful opponents, and knows that he can beat weaker opponents so he just uses matter manip to save time.

How The Battle Plays Out

Guy's should be... I mean Guy looked pretty bloodlusted in that scan... he said, "Time to die, maggot!" and we all know how powerful the GL ring is. And even if Surfer's max level of energy is higher, which I am unsure of, that was a bloodlusted Guy compared to a random encounter Surfer, who has more morals than Guy to begin with.

As mentioned before, no GL has the same level of feats as another. And Hal, John and Kyle all >Guy in terms of their feats and willpower. And not even top tier Lanterns match Surfer's level of energy projections either. In regards to the bloodlusted point, two of Surfer's planet busting feats have been him acting in character. Against Ravenous and Korvac, he just outright blew up the planets they were fighting on, one to make a point and the other to escape from the planet. His fight with Morg was an angry/pi$$ed off Surfer so your point applies there. But as Surfer sees Despero is a deadly foe, he'll eventually resort to more lethal measures in that regard. He's not against killing like some heroes are.

But did he use planet busting blasts directly on their persons? Because that's what really matters.

Would you care to educate me on the best feats of Mind Gem Moondragon? If the Soul Gem truly has infinite mental power, then how could it possibly fail against Surfer? Seems like PIS, and to some extent a NLF and it's just like the situation with the Rock of Eternity.

In this case, the Surfer is backed by a near inifinite power source in the Power Cosmic coupled with impressive willpower himself which is why he eventually overcome its thrall. I'll use my first scan to illustrate the point.

No Caption Provided

Surfer doesn't even know how he was able to resist it, saying that it could have been Galactus's soul tampering.... so this feat should effectively be nullified because it could have been the work of Galactus. In addition, that scan also has Norrin saying he's been manipulated in the past, so why couldn't Despero manipulate him?

Also I asked for feats of Mind Gem Moondragon and have yet to see any.

Martian Manhunter has TP'd the Spectre, and also has held out against thousands of fully trained White Martians trying to infiltrate his mind. Despero has not only used TP against, but mind controlled this very man (martian?), multiple times.

You're relying a little too much on ABC logic here. It's not a dead certainty that Surfer will be overpowered telepathically by Despero, or that he can assault Despero before he gets TPed.

How else are we to gauge telepathic skills, if not by ABC logic? If Person X can TP Person Y and Person Z is a stronger telepath than Person X then logically Person Z can TP Person Y as well.

He's used it. But not consistently. Firestorm once went absolute zero on Killer Frost, does that mean he'll do that against any opponent that he sees? No, it doesn't.

I've outlined my treatise on consistency use of feats previously in this post so that makes this point moot as of now.

And I've rebutted said treatise, so the point still stands.

That's it. We no longer need to discuss the physical aspect. You've admitted he would lose.

Despero's chances fall based on the probability of Surfer using the full extent of his powers, which is very, very, very low, considering he has been defeated by much lesser opponents than Despero in the past.

I've made no such admission in the slightest. A fanciful invention on your part entirely, especially when your arguments haven't been convincing enough as of currently.

Are you sure? So saying "Surfer doesn't stand a chance in a physical confrontation" doesn't mean that you've given up the physical aspect already? I beg to differ.

Despero's chances do indeed fall based on Surfer using the full extent of his powers and as I've proven, this is far more likely to happen than you'd care to admit. It's a completely fallacious claim to use Surfer's low end showings of defeat in an attempt to prove he'll lose to a foe like Despero. Characters should be judged on their own merits and feats, which is how I've shown Surfer does indeed stand a chance against Despero.

You're correct on the last bit. Despero has solo'd the best guys on the Justice League, while Surfer has never done anything on this magnitude. In a battle, we are to take all showings into account, and seeing as how he lost to Thor, who Despero would slaughter, gives Despero the edge.

Morals

I will admit here that Despero stands no chance against a morals off, bloodlusted Surfer that uses 100% of his powers to the best of his abilities. However, this is quite clearly morals on, and we haven't even taken that into consideration thus far. Despero severely lacks morals to begin with, I've never seen him job, while Surfer jobs quite often. Despero wouldn't hesitate to kill Surfer, while Surfer definitely would.

Well I have, unfortunately for your side of the debate, you haven't quite gotten there yet. You aren't wrong in stating Despero doesn't really have any morals in his combat style but yet again you make a poor mistake of trying to use Surfer's jobbing showings as proof of his ability to lose to Despero. We don't consider jobbing or low showings for these characters, especially when there's usually context behind those scenarios. You'd be wise to remember that debating tip. But as I mentioned earlier, Surfer is not adverse to killing and will do what needs to be done in many of his fights as a last resort.

Jobbing? In those scans Surfer said he was going all out... not morals off or bloodlusted but going all out. Why would he job to Thor? Would you mind telling me the context, or pointing me to a page on the internet that says so?

The thing is, with basic knowledge, Despero isn't going to hold back at all. He's going to pile skyscraper upon skyscraper upon Surfer while assaulting him mentally in ferocious combination, unrelenting until he mentally detects that Surfer is down. Can't say the same about Surfer.

Despero goes for hand to hand confrontation, not throwing buildings on his foes all the time. This is clearly an invention on your part of Despero's battle tactics when we go by how they're acting in character. The TP can be resisted by Surfer, since he can go to the mental plane which is the source of his Power Cosmic and Despero's telepathic powers would have far less affect.

Surfer can't defeat Despero on the astral plane. He doesn't have the feats to say he would be able to. So he'll have to come out of astral eventually, where he'd be TP'd or physically defeated.

No Caption Provided

Speed

I'm surprised you haven't addressed this yet, but in anticipation, I'm going to say it now. Surfer's speed will not be a problem at all for Despero, considering he has tagged the almighty, omniversal threat known as Wally West!!! (the omnipotent part is a joke, but he has tagged the Flash before)

I think it might be harder than you care to admit. Surfer has 2 microsecond reaction feats, 2 nanosecond reaction feats and his board can basically fly around on its own and be used as its own weapon. This is how Surfer suckered Beta Ray Bill in their battle by having the board wack him from behind so it's definitely a tactic which could be employed on Despero too. Suffice to say, it's not going to be easy for Despero to tag Surfer.

I respectfully disagree. Despero has tagged Flash. That should be enough to say that he can tag Surfer.

Energy Blasts

Taking a full power blast from a bloodlusted Guy Gardner without so much as a scratch should be enough to ensure that Despero is not going to be put down by energy blasts on Surfer's level. He's taken blasts from Dr. Light, and (I don't know if this counts as an energy blast but I have nothing to lost by saying it) Red Tornado.

As stated before, Guy is not on the other human Lanterns' energy projection level, let alone Surfer's so his bloodlusted state makes little difference. Dr Light is also not as powerful an energy user as Surfer and Red Tornado doesn't count. All in all, you have yet to show that Surfer couldn't blast Despero into smitheereens eventually.

Had Despero been knocked back, or kept down for even a second you would be correct. But as I said before, Guy isn't as powerless as you're making him out to be as shown by the Darkseid feat. Darkseid was knocked back by a non-bloodlusted Guy, while Despero didn't even flinch. I believe this shows that Surfer wouldn't be able to win by blasting.

Summary

Whilst Despero is the physically superior combatant, Surfer is the superior energy combatant as well as being more versatile than Despero by miles. He has many ways to attack Despero at range whether by powerful Cosmic blasts, matter manipulation or telekeniis. And Surfer posesses just enough TP resistance to hold off Despero's mental might whilst possessing the versatility and range to bring this monstrous foe down.

You want to bring up telekinesis? Despero tossed aside a charging Hawkman like he was nothing with TK. He has other TK feats, too, but I'll wait to see if you want to argue this before saying them.

Mental Stuff

This is going to be my main argument for this debate.

Surfer has simply stated that he's invincible in the astral plane. It doesn't mean he actually is. Statements mean nothing. Also, how in character is it for Surfer to go astral? Just wondering.

Even if it were proven, Surfer doesn't have the feats to say he could mentally overpower Despero there. This means Surfer would have to return eventually.

Mind controlling MMH is a better mental feat than resisting the (so far as I've seen) featless Mind Gem Moondragon. J'onn has used TP on the Spectre who is omnipotent. He's resisted telepathy from thousands of White Martians at a time - these White Martians train all their lives to enhance their TP powers, and are an offshoot of J'onn's own race. Despero completely overpowering this mind is extremely impressive, especially when seeing that he was fighting another telepath, Aquaman, at the same time and still managed to defeat them both and proceed to mind control them.

Physical

At best, this is a stalemate. Soloing some of the most powerful bricks (Clark, Diana, Kara, Shazam) in comics shows Despero's vast durability, strength and reaction times, while tagging the Flash shows that Surfer isn't too fast for him.

Conclusion

In this battle I first see Despero mentally assaulting Surfer. Although Surfer has TP of his own, I've never seen Surfer doing anything as impressive as mentally defeating Martian Manhunter. If he survives the initial assault, he certainly won't be unharmed, and is overall incapable of taking Despero in a mental battle.

If Surfer somehow avoids engaging in a TP battle, he will undoubtedly lose to Despero's awesome strength and durability. While Norrin is the faster of the two, I don't see his speed being a problem as Despero has consistently tagged the Flash and has some degree of Super Speed of his own.

The other scenario is Surfer using all of his powers like matter manipulation, time manipulation etc. which I also don't see happening because Surfer is in character.

That still stands.

When do you want to open for votes?

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#38 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: I plan on getting my post actually up tonight and we can then open votes when you want to.

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#39 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio
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#40 Posted by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

Totally my fault here, first thing tomorrow I'll get my response up before I attend to my other notifications and PMs.

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#41 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Totally my fault here, first thing tomorrow I'll get my response up before I attend to my other notifications and PMs.

Sure

We can always postpone this if you want. It seems like you're very busy and I respect that.

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#42 Posted by BeaconofStrength (12487 posts) - - Show Bio

Just wanted to say that both of your debating is fantastic. Great debate.

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#43 Posted by Kingant27 (16635 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I wasn't sure if that Moondragon feat was acceptable, is it a direct TP assault, if so I misread it.

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#44 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

Just wanted to say that both of your debating is fantastic. Great debate.

Thanks :) should I t4v?

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#45 Posted by BeaconofStrength (12487 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: in the interest of time, would you like to open votes after your post? I believe I've covered everything.

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#47 Edited by Lvenger (36181 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007:

Round 3 - Rebuttals

Physicals

I never said he had infinite levels of strength. But he must be pretty damn strong to lift it. At this point it appears that you're just trying to make me look bad, which I hope is not the case.

I fail to see how exploiting the mistakes and contradictions you've made in your own evidence is making you look bad. If anything, you made yourself look bad in commiting a no limits fallacy with Despero's Rock of Eternity feat. You're still not seeing the problem in using such evidence, especially when beings of a lower strength level than Despero, such as Superman and Wonder Woman, have also lifted objects with infinite weight before. Are we to believe that they're as strong as Despero now?

No question, this will be a long and glorious battle due to both of their regenerative abilities. But we have reason to believe that Despero will come out on top. Remember, this is a man that was physically soloing Superman, Shazam, Power Girl, and Hawkman. Does Surfer have any such battle feats that put him on Despero's level physically?

And there's equally plausible reason to believe that Surfer has the capabilities of coming out on top too. Surfer has soloed the Revengers, the Cancerverse version of the Avengers who were just as powerful as the originals, defeated a non amped Morg who was still soloing every other Herald Galactus had, stalemated Gladiator, owned Beta Ray Bill in H2H combat and one shotted a Thanosi clone. I imagine that list counts for credible battle feats on Surfer's part and Surfer's versatility and range gives him an edge over Despero's physical one.

Energy Projection

Among humans, you are correct (aside from Simon Baz but he's N52). But that's not exactly saying much, as Hal and Kyle are arguably 2 of the top 3 lanterns ever, and John created a freaking solar system. Anyway, in Green Lantern Corps 20 Guy Gardner was easily able to hold his own against Hal and was even beating him. I wouldn't say that it's not a big deal, either. Guy's willpower has been described as upper echelon, people have said that his ring can't handle his will, that it's yearning to get free and release power. He doesn't have planet busting but once, Guy was able to blast Darkseid with such power that Darkseid was knocked forward about 10 feet (although he got up right after). Meanwhile Despero didn't even flinch when hit with a bloodlusted Guy's blast.

I'm not seeing anything quantifiable for what Guy's energy projection capabilities are. The same can be said of Hal or Kyle's rings and their willpower yet we can measure how powerful their energy blasts are based on empirical showings. As for your Green Lantern 20 citation, I've checked around for scans/synopses and Volume 2 of GLC doesn't show any indication of Hal or Guy fighting. Nor is there signs of Hal and Guy fighting in Volume 3 of GLC. Hal and Guy have fought before but mostly they take their rings off and bare knuckle brawl. Unless you can show scans to the contrary, I doubt your citations can support your case.

Dr. Light defeated Starbreaker with her energy blasts. That's pretty impressive IMO. Anyhow, the Guy feat is all I really need, this just showed he can do it consistently.

Um no. I've just re-read the issues where Doctor Light was a member of the Justice League and encountered Starbreaker (Justice League of America #32-34.) And Starbreaker easily owned Doctor Light, absorbed a star through her body and pretty much decimated the entire JLA at the time; John Stewart, Firestorm (Jason Ruch), Vixen, Zatanna and Icon backing them up too. At no point did Dr Light defeat Starbreaker on her own. It was this gunslinging Bruce Wayne clone who finished off Starbreaker, not Dr Light. If the Guy feat is all you need though, I'd say you have limited justification for your points.

Matter Manipulation

Uh, not the extent you're saying. This is in character. CIS is still in character. Yes, we don't say Deathstroke is FTL because he tagged the Flash, but Surfer has many instances where he could have used matter manipulation and lost.

CIS is still in play and that may keep Surfer from instantly unleashing on Despero. But Surfer isn't a foolish fighter and he's cut loose once he's seen the power of his competition in the past. I see no reason why he wouldn't do the same against Despero. He doesn't like to kill but it's not out of the question either. Surfer used matter manipulation

I don't know about ABC logic but Silver Surfer just doesn't use his powers consistently. Maybe he wants to have a more honorable fight against more powerful opponents, and knows that he can beat weaker opponents so he just uses matter manip to save time.

Despero's not facing Thor in this fight, Surfer doesn't have anywhere close to Thor's track record of losing because he didn't use his full powerset. And I can't recall Surfer purposely engaging in fair battle when a dangerous and powerful enemy is threatening him or innocent civilians. In a populated environment, Surfer might be more willing to cut loose sooner than usual to prevent innocents from harm. You may have argued that Despero would benefit more from fighting in a populated arena but there are advantages for the good guys too. Like so

No Caption Provided

Coupled with his use of matter manipulation against Cable, I believe that makes it at least 5 times he's used it in combat.

How The Battle Plays Out

But did he use planet busting blasts directly on their persons? Because that's what really matters.

Ah I see your ploy here. No he did not but if it's on person blasts you're looking for, Surfer has made Thor remark "Thy blast nearly destroyed us all" whilst only firing a warning shot at the Avengers, made Ego the living planet cry out in pain whilst firing normal sized energy blasts, one shotted Cable and stalemated Mjolnir's lightning. I think Surfer's direct blasts will cause nearly as much pain to Despero as a full sized planet busting attack.

Surfer doesn't even know how he was able to resist it, saying that it could have been Galactus's soul tampering.... so this feat should effectively be nullified because it could have been the work of Galactus. In addition, that scan also has Norrin saying he's been manipulated in the past, so why couldn't Despero manipulate him?

Not really, it's also indicated that Surfer's willpower and mental strength kept Moondragon out of his head. That cannot be dismissed as you prematurely do so.

How else are we to gauge telepathic skills, if not by ABC logic? If Person X can TP Person Y and Person Z is a stronger telepath than Person X then logically Person Z can TP Person Y as well.

You can make any sequence of events or scenarios seem reliable with faulty ABC logic. For instance, Surfer stalemated Firelord whereas Spider-Man beat Firelord, therefore Spider-Man can beat Silver Surfer. It doesn't account for PIS or the context of the feats.

And I've rebutted said treatise, so the point still stands.

And I've rebutted your rebuttal of my original counter again so we're back to square one.

Are you sure? So saying "Surfer doesn't stand a chance in a physical confrontation" doesn't mean that you've given up the physical aspect already? I beg to differ.

Don't be duplicitous here, there are many ways in which a fight can be won. Size and strength aren't always everything and the right powerset can offer a suitable advantage over physically superior foes. Surfer would lose a H2H fight with Despero but his other powers give him a strong chance of winning in other ways. I gave up arguing the physical side of this debate, not the overall debate itself.

You're correct on the last bit. Despero has solo'd the best guys on the Justice League, while Surfer has never done anything on this magnitude. In a battle, we are to take all showings into account, and seeing as how he lost to Thor, who Despero would slaughter, gives Despero the edge.

But the Justice League doesn't have any member of Surfer's raw ranged projection power or versatility on its team. Nor have we seen how Despero would do against more potent energy projection or matter manipulation such as the kind Surfer can employ in battle.

Morals

Jobbing? In those scans Surfer said he was going all out... not morals off or bloodlusted but going all out. Why would he job to Thor? Would you mind telling me the context, or pointing me to a page on the internet that says so?

Why haven't you cited this yourself? You're trying to shift the burden of proof onto me when here the burden of proof is on your end, not mine. Dodging the point won't get you anywhere on this point. And you know full well why Surfer jobs to Thor, don't be blind. If Surfer fought the way he did against Cable or the Revengers or even a random tiger from Wundagore, he could cause Thor a lot more damage than he tends to do in their fights. As it stands, Thor is one of Marvel's more popular characters so Surfer suddenly forgets how to fight properly when he takes on Thor. Also, an all out Surfer would fight much differently to the way he fought Thor, feats>statements as is the tradition on the battle forums.

Surfer can't defeat Despero on the astral plane. He doesn't have the feats to say he would be able to. So he'll have to come out of astral eventually, where he'd be TP'd or physically defeated.

True but he can defend himself from Despero's mental attacks long enough to launch a surprise attack on him which could change the outcome of this encounter outside of a straight fight between the two.

You want to bring up telekinesis? Despero tossed aside a charging Hawkman like he was nothing with TK. He has other TK feats, too, but I'll wait to see if you want to argue this before saying them.

And Surfer has lifted up 2 large robots at once, hurled giant space debris at powerful cosmic beings and covered Millennius in rocks and sent him to the core of the Earth. That beats Despero's TK feats and you know I've seen more Despero's TK feats than you.

Mental Stuff

This is going to be my main argument for this debate.

Surfer has simply stated that he's invincible in the astral plane. It doesn't mean he actually is. Statements mean nothing. Also, how in character is it for Surfer to go astral? Just wondering.

Even if it were proven, Surfer doesn't have the feats to say he could mentally overpower Despero there. This means Surfer would have to return eventually.

Mind controlling MMH is a better mental feat than resisting the (so far as I've seen) featless Mind Gem Moondragon. J'onn has used TP on the Spectre who is omnipotent. He's resisted telepathy from thousands of White Martians at a time - these White Martians train all their lives to enhance their TP powers, and are an offshoot of J'onn's own race. Despero completely overpowering this mind is extremely impressive, especially when seeing that he was fighting another telepath, Aquaman, at the same time and still managed to defeat them both and proceed to mind control them.

He resisted the creature attacking him before by using this tactic in battle against it. I think that counts as proof, not as a statement.

Despero would be able to resist Surfer's mental attacks but Surfer could use the astral trick to resist Despero's TP then launch a counter attack too suddenly for Despero to realise it.

All good feats but again you're relying a little too much on ABC logic here to support your case.

@lvenger: in the interest of time, would you like to open votes after your post? I believe I've covered everything.

Yeah let's open votes after this, I think I'm done covering my bases.

Avatar image for thenewbluebeetle007
#48 Edited by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: OK, cool. Just let me use my three scans.

Nice debate, btw. I can see why you're Hall of Fame. I had fun.

GLC Volume 1 Issue 8 - Guy Gardner briefly fights Hal Jordan evenly before they both get back to their senses stop
GLC Volume 1 Issue 8 - Guy Gardner briefly fights Hal Jordan evenly before they both get back to their senses stop
Even Darkseid is knocked back a few feet by Guy's blast, and this is non-bloodlusted Guy.
Even Darkseid is knocked back a few feet by Guy's blast, and this is non-bloodlusted Guy.
Mentally overpowering Martian Manhunter and Aquaman
Mentally overpowering Martian Manhunter and Aquaman

@frozen: we'd like to open for votes.

Also, after re-reading the OP it appears that one thing we both missed is that it's abandoned NYC, not just NYC.

@chaos911 said:

Tag for votes please!

Tag for votes amigos :)

Tag me for votes please.

How do I have like an sight over these tourney rounds? I want to read them all.

Tag me for votes, and good luck to you both.

@micah said:

Tag me for votes please.

@frisky4 said:

Neato. T4V

@thenewbluebeetle007: @lvenger: Nice work so far, I will be following this one; and tag me for voting please.

@kingant27 said:

@thenewbluebeetle007: @lvenger: Nice work so far, I will be following this one; and tag me for voting please.

Just wanted to say that both of your debating is fantastic. Great debate.

@cosmicallyaware1@wardemon32@oceanmaster21@serrure@roronuffy@darkraiden@ssj_god@comicdude360@sirfizzwhizz@joewell@arcus@nighthunder@hulkage@dedmanwalkin@haoalchemist@keidecifer:

Voting's open. Please vote based on who you think presented the better argument. Thanks in advance.

Avatar image for kingant27
#49 Edited by Kingant27 (16635 posts) - - Show Bio

Great debating from both, and this was one of the best representations from both, however I'm going slightly with @lvenger: as I feel Despero's TP advantage was countered well, therefore via the scans shown; giving Norrin and @lvenger: the win here slightly.

@thenewbluebeetle007: Great debating here, and it was very close.

Avatar image for thenewbluebeetle007
#50 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

Great debating from both, and this was one of the best representations from both, however I'm going slightly with @lvenger: as I feel Despero's TP advantage was countered well, therefore via the scans shown; giving Norrin and @lvenger: the win here slightly.

@thenewbluebeetle007: Great debating here, and it was very close.

Thanks for voting.

Anything I could have done better?