Frozen's PH tourney: HeirToTheKingdom vs TTBA

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frozen

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#1 frozen  Moderator

Frozen's Powerhouse tournament

Thor (HeirToTheKingdom)

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Pre-New 52 Captain Atom (TheTrueBarryAllen)

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Rules

  • In character
  • Standard incapitation
  • No prep
  • Basic knowledge on each other capabilities
  • Location: Abandon New York City
  • No BFR
  • You can only use THREE scans throughout the entire individual allocated battle / CAV --- not three from one issue, but three throughout the entire debate
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frozen

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#2 frozen  Moderator
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BeaconofStrength

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#4  Edited By BeaconofStrength

@frozen: Is there a way you could tag me for voting in every match? If so, do that. This tourney will be interesting and I don't want to miss one of the matches.

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frozen

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#5 frozen  Moderator

@frozen: Is there a way you could tag me for voting in every match? If so, do that. This tourney will be interesting and I don't want to miss one of the matches.

Sure, I'll tag you.

Also, if anyone else wants tagging, just say.

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PacPanda

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@frozen: I want tagging for the matches I'm not in.

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captain_batman_FTW

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@frozen: Can you do the same for me? Tag me in every tourney round.

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Sovereign91001

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@frozen: Add me to the tag list please

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ancient_god

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@frozen: Can you do the same for me? Tag me in every tourney round.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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HeirToTheKingdom

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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HeirToTheKingdom

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#13  Edited By HeirToTheKingdom
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Speedster101

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Unless you want viners with more experience here I would like to be tagged as a voter in all rounds plz :)

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Jacthripper

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T4V

Also, I believed I entered this, but have not received a tag

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johnfrank120

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Gizmorino

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@frozen: is this the christmas powerhouse tourney?

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frozen

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#18 frozen  Moderator
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Gizmorino

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@frozen said:

@gizmorino said:

@frozen: is this the christmas powerhouse tourney?

Yes.

so who am i facing? can i get a link?

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HeirToTheKingdom

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@heirtothekingdom: I'll have my post up tomorrow morning. I was busy writing my final post in another match and I had a lot to say :)

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HeirToTheKingdom

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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Captain Atom // Pre 52 // Represented by TheTrueBarryAllen

No Caption Provided

Powers & Abilities

Captain Atom has a variety of powers, and he isn't used as often as Thor in debates, so I'll give a brief description of what he can do:

  • Superhuman Strength - Captain Atom is a high tier foe (hence why he's in this powerhouse tournament) and can physically brawl with characters on the Superman level.
  • Superhuman Speed - Captain Atom has enhanced speed; he isn't FTL to my knowledge, but he's no chump either.
  • Superhuman Durability - Due to his outer covering of dilustel he has incredibly high durability.
  • Flight - Captain Atom has the ability to fly.
  • Molecular/Matter Manipulation - He can manipulate matter and molecules; he's transmuted some objects & people in his time.
  • Energy Blasts/Force Fields - Captain Atom can project powerful blasts of energy or create energy fields to protect himself.
  • Energy Absorption - Captain Atom can absorb an incredibly large amount of energy.

That's pretty much the basics of it; he's used his abilities in some odd/interesting ways throughout his history but I won't worry about that unless I need to apply it to this battle.

Why I Believe Captain Atom Will Win

This might be a bit short; because I only have a couple things to say; however, these might lead to several debate points later on thus creating more conversation but here is why I think Captain Atom is the superior.

Thor is a brawler; he has a plethora of outlandish abilities that he's used from time to time but in a fight his main mentality is fighting fair, one would call him honor bound. On the other side we've got Captain Atom, he has some honor to him but he's been taught by the Government to do whatever he needs to do in order to win, unlike many heroes Captain Atom isn't against killing his foes, and he's got plenty of ways to do it.

Strength wise & durability wise I think they're both similar; however, I don't know how well Thor's matter manipulation resistance is, if he doesn't have much resistance there then simple matter manipulation could end all of this.

Captain Atom's energy projection & absorption is what I think will give him the win. He's proven time & time again against foes such as Major Force, Hal Jordan, and even against Nekron that he's a powerful energy manipulator, and I think he edges out to be superior in that aspect to Thor.

Thor can take some punishment, but it's only a matter of time that he gets worn down; and Captain Atom's got the quantum field powering him, giving him the boost he needs when he needs it (as he's shown by boosting his stamina when he was getting exhausted in a fight) thus preventing him from getting tired throughout this fight.

Thors attacks are also blunt force attacks; which don't do too much harm against something such as Captain Atom's dilustel coating.

Overall - Captain Atom's energy manipulation & energy blasts that set him aside from the traditional brick will give him the edge.

This was a short post, but we'll see what argument you make for Thor & continue on for there. I'm passing the stage over to you now, @heirtothekingdom, best of luck :)

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HeirToTheKingdom

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#24  Edited By HeirToTheKingdom

@thetruebarryallen:

Alright i'll start with an opener too.

Thor Odinson

No Caption Provided

Powers & Abilities

Thor has plenty of powers and abilities, some of those powers are due to his heritage, while others are granted due to the enchanted hammer he wields, Mjolnir.

These ones are due to his heritage.

  • Superhuman Strength- Thor has immense strength even without Mjolnir, his strength puts him in Marvel's top tier category, he's one of the only characters that can go toe to toe with the Hulk in a fist fight.
  • Super Speed- Although commonly believed to be slow, Thor is actually quite fast when he wants to be, he has speed that is considered superhuman
  • Superhuman Durability- Thor is extremely durable capable of taking blows that would leave others in his level unconscious.
  • Superhuman Stamina- Thor can go long periods of time without rest, whole months without nourishment
  • Weather Manipulation- Being the God of thunder and lighting, Thor has absolute control over the weather and has even controlled it on other planets. He can also fire it in bolts of lighting, and use it in many different ways which i'll get into later on in the debate
  • Earth Manipulation- Due to Thor's mother being the actual Elder Goddess of Earth (Gaea), Thor has the power to manipulate the earth in large ways
  • Healing Factor- Although not as impressive as others, Thor has the ability to heal from injury a lot faster than other beings

And these ones come from Mjolnir.

  • Flight- By spinning, then hurling Mjolnir and grabbing on to the handle, Thor is capable of flying at fast speeds
  • Teleportation- Mjolnir is capable of teleporting almost anywhere in the universe by opening portals
  • Energy Projection- Mjolnir is able to fire powerful blasts of energy
  • Energy Absorption- Mjolnir can absorb large quantities of energy from an object or an actual being
  • Matter Manipulation- Mjolnir grants Thor the ability to manipulate matter
  • Tracking- Mjolnir is capable of tracking almost anything throughout the universe

There is some more abilities, but they probably won't be used here and this is the general ones he uses more or less. If there is something else i'll get into it when the actual debate starts.

Okay, let's begin.

Physical strength and striking power is going to play a crucial part in this debate as although these guys have plenty of other powers, this is there main form of attack. (Well New 52 Captain Atom is different, but that's another topic) These two have the strength to go rounds with the strongest beings in their respective universes and come out on top or near enough. Captain Atom may be exceptionally strong in his own right fighting powerful beings like Superman, but I believe Thor has him beat in physical strength by a good margin. Captain Atom can put up a fight with Thor physically, although in the end he's going to go down if this is how he prolongs the fight (Which he obviously wouldn't). Thor's strength is incredibly high to the point even without Mjolnir he can pull off some impressive feats. An example of that would be when Thor fought against an undead Asgardian warrior who was quite strong. Thor simply punched the warrior into space as if it was nothing using nothing but his bare hands.

It's a common misconception that Thor's strength is quite literally nothing without Mjolnir, which is greatly incorrect as shown above. His strength is capable of accomplishing great feats, and what makes it more impressive Thor can argument his striking power by empowering his fists with lightning to deal more damage. He's done this quite often, not actually adding the lightning to his fists but more so his hammer, although he can do it to his fists too as I will show below. A strike from Thor would already injure Captain Atom, adding lightning into the mix just makes it more dangerous.

What makes Thor so much more powerful is that hammer of his (Mjolnir), if you though his strength was impressive now, wait until you see how hard he strikes when he uses it. That hammer has knocked around even beings as powerful as Skyfather's so you best believe it strikes hard, much harder than Thor's actual fists. I could post some feats of Thor's striking power with it, but I will save them for later as I've shown enough for his striking power as of now. Just know Mjolnir strikes so hard that Classic Hulk used to be quite wary of it to the point he wouldn't want to engage Thor while he used it and result to using bystanders and making Thor drop it to battle him. Here is a little description on how the narration describes Mjolnir, and it describes it as a really powerful weapon.

"Able to shatter whole planets as easy as pebbles".

Like that is not an exaggeration as it's done so before, but I'll show that later.

My post got eaten so I'll finish later, bare with me.

Counters to your arguments

This might be a bit short; because I only have a couple things to say; however, these might lead to several debate points later on thus creating more conversation but here is why I think Captain Atom is the sup

Okay.

Thor is a brawler; he has a plethora of outlandish abilities that he's used from time to time but in a fight his main mentality is fighting fair, one would call him honor bound. On the other side we've got Captain Atom, he has some honor to him but he's been taught by the Government to do whatever he needs to do in order to win, unlike many heroes Captain Atom isn't against killing his foes, and he's got plenty of ways to do it.

1. I seen that coming to be honest, and although I disagree, some of it is incorrect. Thor is a brawler, there is no denying that, but he is more than that at times and has proven it enough to show that he isn't only going to go swinging his hammer hoping he has superior physical stats than his opponent. He mostly does that with beings who are brawlers too, and although you may deny it, Captain Atom is a brawler as well. Even though these two characters have a large amount of powers, they both do a consistent thing. Thor consistently brawls and spams of lighting bolts/blasts, and Captain Atom consistently brawls and throws off energy blasts, so there is not going to be one using a lot more powers in the other as they both usually hold back a lot.

2. I agree with that, Thor is more of someone who fights with honor, while Captain Atom does sort of whatever brings victory. Although this is not really a big advantage, as Thor has done things like strike beings down when they were unaware which isn't really different from what Cap does.

3. Killing isn't something Thor has problems with either, I mean just look what he did to Loki when he had enough. He literally absorbed Loki's life force, killing him.\

Even in more current years, Thor is more aggressive, and is ready to kill if needed.

Strength wise & durability wise I think they're both similar; however, I don't know how well Thor's matter manipulation resistance is, if he doesn't have much resistance there then simple matter manipulation could end all of this.

In all honesty these two are incredibly strong, and Captain Atom can match Thor for quite some time (if he's going all out), but he's really not as durable or as strong as Thor. These are actually to advantages the Thunder God holds. For starters, not to try and low ball or anything, Captain Atom has held his own with beings like Superman and such, but it was depicted that he was strong, but not as strong as them, and well Thor is. I believe Captain Atom has had some trouble with even a weaker Kryptonian (Power Girl), and was on the receiving end (He was holding back I believe, but still) It doesn't help that Thor has striking feats which are better than the man of steel himself, and just to prove my point I'll go and show one really great striking feat of Thor's which shows he strikes extremely hard. A pissed off Thor who's had enough of Odin's bull, literally hurts him with a single hammer strike. A hammer strike which not only hurts the mightiest Sky Father, but actually makes him drop to his knees.

It's pretty apparent the strike caused damage as Odin clearly yells out in pain. That's the type of striking power Thor has, and to be honest Captain Atom does not have that kind of striking power to go toe to toe with Thor, so he would be better off staying on the ranged side. Now not to low-ball Captain Atom's durability or anything, but hasn't his suit/amour(?) been breeched by Apollo? Someone who's not nearly as powerful as Thor, nor strikes as hard. I just want you to clarify that please, because if that's the case Thor isn't going to have much trouble breeching his amour and causing him to explode. They are both really durable beings with that out the way I'll say that, and they will both be able to take plenty of punishment before going down. As for matter manipulation, Thor has that himself, and has done some impressive things with it. I won't show any scans unless you want me to, but you can take my word for this. He has also never been someone affected by molecule manipulation if I remember correctly, well he has but it's been with power out of Captain Atom's reach, (high level magic or Cosmic forces), so it's not really going to be an option, also to note that Mjolnir would probably negate it's effects or flat out block it. Something else I would like you to show me, has Captain Atom used molecule manipulation on someone as powerful as Thor, and no I don't mean someone on his level like Superman or ect, but someone with a godly status like possibly Shazam or something. I ask this because in Marvel it's often shown that Gods are much more resistant to certain attacks than other beings. Like for example Asgardians being able to live without certain organs in their bodies.

Captain Atom's energy projection & absorption is what I think will give him the win. He's proven time & time again against foes such as Major Force, Hal Jordan, and even against Nekron that he's a powerful energy manipulator, and I think he edges out to be superior in that aspect to Thor.

Probably the only two real advantages Captain Atom has here, and the first one is debatable. I mean they both can fire extremely powerful energy blasts, but Thor can do that and other energies like lighting, godly energy, anti-matter, and I believe some more. So it's quite debatable, either way I think Thor has the power to easily counter Captain Atom's energy blasts with his own lighting blasts like he did to Malekith.

They are both potent energy absorbers, and both of them have vast feats. The only way you can really choose which one is better is by the fact that Thor needs his hammer to absorb, while Captain Atom does so with himself, so in a way I'll say Captain Atom is better. Quite literally the only real advantage he has in this battle and arguably energy projection as energy manipulation isn't going to do much when Mjolnir can do the same, but absorb the energy and fire it right back more powerful.

Thor can take some punishment, but it's only a matter of time that he gets worn down; and Captain Atom's got the quantum field powering him, giving him the boost he needs when he needs it (as he's shown by boosting his stamina when he was getting exhausted in a fight) thus preventing him from getting tired throughout this fight.

Thor takes a while to get tired, heck he's fought for months, although I see him obviously getting tired before that, I don't see this battle lasting that long for it to happen, With Thor simply being more powerful, Captain Atom can restore energy all he wants, but he still won't beat him.

Thors attacks are also blunt force attacks; which don't do too much harm against something such as Captain Atom's dilustel coating.

His usual go to attacks are blunt force, as I've shown partly above Thor does have energy based attacks so that's not really true, and he doesn't need to damage Atom''s coating to knock him out.

Overall - Captain Atom's energy manipulation & energy blasts that set him aside from the traditional brick will give him the edge.

Thor has all of Captain Atom's powers, and more, not really an edge there. Thor literally has every advantage or is on par with Captain Atom enough to cancel out. The only real advantage Atom has is energy absorption, and that's only because it comes from himself, while Thor it's his hammer.

I think that's enough for now.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@heirtothekingdom: Just a friendly little bump so you can finish your post :)

Unless you'd like me to respond to what you've presented thus far.

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HeirToTheKingdom

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TheNewBlueBeetle007

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@heirtothekingdom: I hate interrupting, but just saying, the rules state only 3 scans may be used. I'd hate to see you voted against because you break the rules.

Also, T4V

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HeirToTheKingdom

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#28  Edited By HeirToTheKingdom
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HeirToTheKingdom

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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Counter Post 001

Alright, sorry for the delay (I've gotten addicted to editing the wiki and have been doing so for the past 1-2 days) but I believe now is as good a time as ever to respond to the points you've brought up and counter them to the best of my abilities.

Physical strength and striking power is going to play a crucial part in this debate as although these guys have plenty of other powers, this is there main form of attack. (Well New 52 Captain Atom is different, but that's another topic) These two have the strength to go rounds with the strongest beings in their respective universes and come out on top or near enough. Captain Atom may be exceptionally strong in his own right fighting powerful beings like Superman, but I believe Thor has him beat in physical strength by a good margin. Captain Atom can put up a fight with Thor physically, although in the end he's going to go down if this is how he prolongs the fight (Which he obviously wouldn't). Thor's strength is incredibly high to the point even without Mjolnir he can pull off some impressive feats. An example of that would be when Thor fought against an undead Asgardian warrior who was quite strong. Thor simply punched the warrior into space as if it was nothing using nothing but his bare hands.

You're right, physical strength and striking power will play a huge part; however, while Thor MIGHThave a base physical advantage there's the fact that Captain Atom can amp his own physical abilities (strength, speed, etc) using energy from the Quantum Field, which I should mention is an infinite source of energy. Theoretically Captain Atom can continue to amplify his own abilities until he far surpasses Thor in the physical department.

So Thor can try and overpower Captain Atom; and he might at the start of the fight, but as it continues Atom can just continue to draw more and more energy from the Quantum Field thus amplifying his own abilities to a potentially limitless level.

It's a common misconception that Thor's strength is quite literally nothing without Mjolnir, which is greatly incorrect as shown above. His strength is capable of accomplishing great feats, and what makes it more impressive Thor can argument his striking power by empowering his fists with lightning to deal more damage. He's done this quite often, not actually adding the lightning to his fists but more so his hammer, although he can do it to his fists too as I will show below. A strike from Thor would already injure Captain Atom, adding lightning into the mix just makes it more dangerous.

You mention that Thor would be adding lightning to his blows; however, I'm not sure if that's an argument you'd want to pursue. I'm not saying it's not something Thor wouldn't do, I'm saying it won't do anything to help Thor in this fight.

1.) Captain Atom has sat in the middle of nuclear explosions without them phasing him; hes survived attacks from Monarch when he was dishing out blows that were severely damaging the likes of Superman and Martian Manhunter. His durability can withstand hits from Thor no problem.

2.) Lightning is energy, Captain Atom can absorb this energy with or without contact with the lightning. It's not going to do anything to him.

What makes Thor so much more powerful is that hammer of his (Mjolnir), if you though his strength was impressive now, wait until you see how hard he strikes when he uses it. That hammer has knocked around even beings as powerful as Skyfather's so you best believe it strikes hard, much harder than Thor's actual fists. I could post some feats of Thor's striking power with it, but I will save them for later as I've shown enough for his striking power as of now. Just know Mjolnir strikes so hard that Classic Hulk used to be quite wary of it to the point he wouldn't want to engage Thor while he used it and result to using bystanders and making Thor drop it to battle him. Here is a little description on how the narration describes Mjolnir, and it describes it as a really powerful weapon.

Once again; Atom can amp himself with his tie to the Quantum Field to levels that surpass that of Thor, with or without Mjolnir.

I seen that coming to be honest, and although I disagree, some of it is incorrect. Thor is a brawler, there is no denying that, but he is more than that at times and has proven it enough to show that he isn't only going to go swinging his hammer hoping he has superior physical stats than his opponent. He mostly does that with beings who are brawlers too, and although you may deny it, Captain Atom is a brawler as well. Even though these two characters have a large amount of powers, they both do a consistent thing. Thor consistently brawls and spams of lighting bolts/blasts, and Captain Atom consistently brawls and throws off energy blasts, so there is not going to be one using a lot more powers in the other as they both usually hold back a lot.

Captain Atom is a brawler; but he's a brawler who is connected to an infinite amount of energy that he can use for a variety of effects, he also has used transmutation on his foes time and time again while in the midst of combat.

I agree with that, Thor is more of someone who fights with honor, while Captain Atom does sort of whatever brings victory. Although this is not really a big advantage, as Thor has done things like strike beings down when they were unaware which isn't really different from what Cap does.

Like I mentioned earlier; Thor is someone who is honor bound. He respects his opponents, he doesn't just run into every fight with the strength shown in his high end feats. I wouldn't say striking someone down while they were unaware is the same thing as Captain Atom doing anything to bring victory, it's more like being stealthy.

In all honesty these two are incredibly strong, and Captain Atom can match Thor for quite some time (if he's going all out), but he's really not as durable or as strong as Thor. These are actually to advantages the Thunder God holds. For starters, not to try and low ball or anything, Captain Atom has held his own with beings like Superman and such, but it was depicted that he was strong, but not as strong as them, and well Thor is. I believe Captain Atom has had some trouble with even a weaker Kryptonian (Power Girl), and was on the receiving end (He was holding back I believe, but still) It doesn't help that Thor has striking feats which are better than the man of steel himself, and just to prove my point I'll go and show one really great striking feat of Thor's which shows he strikes extremely hard. A pissed off Thor who's had enough of Odin's bull, literally hurts him with a single hammer strike. A hammer strike which not only hurts the mightiest Sky Father, but actually makes him drop to his knees.

That's where you're wrong; Captain Atom has been shown to be on the same levels of heroes such as Superman. He may not have as many feats but that's due to the fact that he isn't as popular of a character, if he constantly used his abilities to the fullest we'd see Pre 52 Atom having the same levels of hype as the New 52 version of him, the only difference between the two is that New 52 Atom is bound by Character Induced Stupidity.

Also; that's a cool striking feat, but when Cap can amp himself to be faster, stronger, and more durable than Thor it doesn't mean all that much.

It's pretty apparent the strike caused damage as Odin clearly yells out in pain. That's the type of striking power Thor has, and to be honest Captain Atom does not have that kind of striking power to go toe to toe with Thor, so he would be better off staying on the ranged side. Now not to low-ball Captain Atom's durability or anything, but hasn't his suit/amour(?) been breeched by Apollo? Someone who's not nearly as powerful as Thor, nor strikes as hard. I just want you to clarify that please, because if that's the case Thor isn't going to have much trouble breeching his amour and causing him to explode. They are both really durable beings with that out the way I'll say that, and they will both be able to take plenty of punishment before going down. As for matter manipulation, Thor has that himself, and has done some impressive things with it. I won't show any scans unless you want me to, but you can take my word for this. He has also never been someone affected by molecule manipulation if I remember correctly, well he has but it's been with power out of Captain Atom's reach, (high level magic or Cosmic forces), so it's not really going to be an option, also to note that Mjolnir would probably negate it's effects or flat out block it. Something else I would like you to show me, has Captain Atom used molecule manipulation on someone as powerful as Thor, and no I don't mean someone on his level like Superman or ect, but someone with a godly status like possibly Shazam or something. I ask this because in Marvel it's often shown that Gods are much more resistant to certain attacks than other beings. Like for example Asgardians being able to live without certain organs in their bodies.

I'm assuming that this is the instance in which you're talking about, and if you look at what happens it didn't end well for Apollo... at all.

No Caption Provided

In this same story Captain Atom was easily handling the likes of Mr. Majestic, who I believe is superior to Apollo.

Captain Atom also willingly took punishment from Apollo earlier in the story and then used his energy absorption against him to nearly kill him, so Apollo doesn't have a solid track record against Atom.

As for your whole "asking for proof" regarding the molecular manipulation; just because Thor is a god doesn't mean I'd have to show Atom manipulating the molecules of a DC character who also has a "God" title within their names.

What I'm going to ask you is to provide either a scan or an issue number in which Thor resists transmutation; I ask this because it's something that Captain Atom has done to someone name Maul ( a character who is pretty much like Hulk) to remove some of his muscle mass thus reverting him back to a human level character, I see no reason why he couldn't simply transmute Thor.

Probably the only two real advantages Captain Atom has here, and the first one is debatable. I mean they both can fire extremely powerful energy blasts, but Thor can do that and other energies like lighting, godly energy, anti-matter, and I believe some more. So it's quite debatable, either way I think Thor has the power to easily counter Captain Atom's energy blasts with his own lighting blasts like he did to Malekith.

The problem is that Atom can absorb limitless energy; granted if he absorbed ALL of Thor's energy at once it wouldn't bode well, but a steady stream would work just fine.

They are both potent energy absorbers, and both of them have vast feats. The only way you can really choose which one is better is by the fact that Thor needs his hammer to absorb, while Captain Atom does so with himself, so in a way I'll say Captain Atom is better. Quite literally the only real advantage he has in this battle and arguably energy projection as energy manipulation isn't going to do much when Mjolnir can do the same, but absorb the energy and fire it right back more powerful.

Atom quite effortlessly used his own powers to create & absorb a universe. People constantly say that because he did this inside the Quantum Field that it doesn't count, but that makes no sense because Atom is constantly connected to the Quantum Field, it's the source of all his power, he could emulate such a large feat again if he had to.

Thor has all of Captain Atom's powers, and more, not really an edge there. Thor literally has every advantage or is on par with Captain Atom enough to cancel out. The only real advantage Atom has is energy absorption, and that's only because it comes from himself, while Thor it's his hammer.

Thor can't continuously amplify his own strength or speed to my knowledge; whereas Captain Atom is connected to a limitless field of energy that allows him to do just that. He can easily overpower Thor's "advantages" and become the winner of this fight quite easily.

Summary

Thor is powerful in his base form; however, it's important to note that Thor isn't gifted with the prize of Combat Speed (his travel speed is impressive) but I've seen him struggle with Street Level characters from time to time, and when he was fighting the likes of Quicksilver he failed to tag him and had to use an AOE attack just to knock him off his feet.

Transmutation could prove to be Thor's downfall, if he gets turned into something or has his strength taken away from him via Atomic Transmutation like Atom did to Maul then I see him going down fairly quickly. If Thor does manage to resist such an attack (you'll have to show me that) then Atom can engage in physical confrontation.

Atom has the advantage here though, perhaps not at the start, but Atom can quite simply alter his own physical stats due to his tie to the Quantum Field which grants him limitless energy. Atoms energy reserves could also be used to overwhelm Thor, sure Thor can absorb some energy, but when Atom is continuously spitting out waves and waves of powerful energy while also increasing his own physical stats and giving Thor a beat down I don't see Thor having much of a chance.

This should be interesting, @heirtothekingdom, it's been awhile since I've gotten to use Atom in a debate. Best of luck :)

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#32  Edited By HeirToTheKingdom

Sorry for the wait, but I'm ready now.

@thetruebarryallen said:

Counter Post 001

Alright, sorry for the delay (I've gotten addicted to editing the wiki and have been doing so for the past 1-2 days) but I believe now is as good a time as ever to respond to the points you've brought up and counter them to the best of my abilities.

No worries.

You're right, physical strength and striking power will play a huge part; however, while Thor MIGHT have a base physical advantage there's the fact that Captain Atom can amp his own physical abilities (strength, speed, etc) using energy from the Quantum Field, which I should mention is an infinite source of energy. Theoretically Captain Atom can continue to amplify his own abilities until he far surpasses Thor in the physical department.

Interesting, I never knew Captain Atom can simply amplify his strength. I have a question though, has he actually done this, or is this based off an assumption since he can tap into a near infinite power source? If it is, than it doesn't necessarily mean he can amplify his physicals, and even if he could it doesn't give him a guarantee win against the Odinson. Thor is still quite stronger at first, and even if Atom amplifies himself, it will take some time which Thor can have Atom defeated by. Also judging from what I've seen of Atom, he's not someone to continue a physical brawl if he's losing, he would go and apply his energy projection, not so much amplify his physicals.

So Thor can try and overpower Captain Atom; and he might at the start of the fight, but as it continues Atom can just continue to draw more and more energy from the Quantum Field thus amplifying his own abilities to a potentially limitless level.

Thor is definitely going to overpower Atom physically. Captain Atom can absorb as much energy from the Quantum Field as he wants, but just know Thor has feats which suggest he can simply drain the energy from him, and trust me it's something he would do. If Thor see's that Atom is simply absorbing energy from an outside source, he can simply do two things.

  1. Thor can simply absorb Captain Atom's energy and store it inside Mjolnir which he can infuse his own energies into it thus making it a lot more powerful. Then fire it back at Captain Atom as an energy blast.
  2. Or he can open a portal to the end of the universe, absorb the energy from Captain Atom and dispel all of the energy into the end of the universe. Just so you know, he did this exact thing to the Phoenix Force, so Captain Atom's energy won't be too much.

So Thor has ways around Captain Atom's energy amplification.

You mention that Thor would be adding lightning to his blows; however, I'm not sure if that's an argument you'd want to pursue. I'm not saying it's not something Thor wouldn't do, I'm saying it won't do anything to help Thor in this fight.

1.) Captain Atom has sat in the middle of nuclear explosions without them phasing him; hes survived attacks from Monarch when he was dishing out blows that were severely damaging the likes of Superman and Martian Manhunter. His durability can withstand hits from Thor no problem.

2.) Lightning is energy, Captain Atom can absorb this energy with or without contact with the lightning. It's not going to do anything to him.

Ah, I see this coming. I'm aware of Captain Atom's high end durability feats, they are impressive, but they do not prove Thor's lightning won't work on him. It's a different form of energy, and different forms of energy will effect him differently even if he's a living absorber. For starters of course a nuclear explosion wouldn't do nothing to Captain Atom, he literally absorbs nuclear power plants for energy and such, it's obviously not going to effect him. Monarch was dishing out the same energy Captain Atom manipulates I believe, so he would have more resistance to it than say Superman or Martian Manhunter. Also just because he tanked energy blasts from Monarch, doesn't mean he can tank Thor's. Casual lightning bolts from Thor have hurt beings like Hyperion, Hulk, and even Cosmic beings. I'm pretty sure it will hurt Captain Atom. I mean he's not immune to energy based attacks just because he can absorb energy, Green Lantern Hal Jordan hurt him enough with energy blasts in they're battle. So has Power Girl with her heat vision, so although he can absorb Thor's energy based attacks. doesn't necessarily mean he will.

Once again; Atom can amp himself with his tie to the Quantum Field to levels that surpass that of Thor, with or without Mjolnir.

While Thor has absorbed energy straight out of beings nearly killing them with Mjolnir. What's stopping Thor from absorbing Captain Atom's energy he gets from the Quantum Field? I basically see them canceling each other out, in-which Thor would win with regular stats. There is also the fact that Atom probably wouldn't do that for a while, and Thor can surely knock him out with his better physicals beforehand.

Captain Atom is a brawler; but he's a brawler who is connected to an infinite amount of energy that he can use for a variety of effects, he also has used transmutation on his foes time and time again while in the midst of combat.

Thor is a brawler who manipulates the weather, and controls a magical hammer which gives him various other abilities. I can do that too. Also, as I've said before, can you tell me of someone or something as powerful or durable as Thor?

Like I mentioned earlier; Thor is someone who is honor bound. He respects his opponents, he doesn't just run into every fight with the strength shown in his high end feats. I wouldn't say striking someone down while they were unaware is the same thing as Captain Atom doing anything to bring victory, it's more like being stealthy.

Regardless if Thor goes all out or not physically, once he does there is going to be a distinct showing of who's physically superior, and it's Thor. High end feats are being used for Captain Atom too than because, he's not always shown at near Superman level strength while Thor has shown that consistently. Although I see what you mean, it's not really going to be a factor in this battle.

That's where you're wrong; Captain Atom has been shown to be on the same levels of heroes such as Superman. He may not have as many feats but that's due to the fact that he isn't as popular of a character, if he constantly used his abilities to the fullest we'd see Pre 52 Atom having the same levels of hype as the New 52 version of him, the only difference between the two is that New 52 Atom is bound by Character Induced Stupidity.

Interesting, although i'm going to say one thing. A lot of characters in DC have been stated to have "Superman level strength", but it doesn't necessarily mean they do. Captain Atom may be near Superman's strength, but there is only a certain amount of characters who actually have strength so close to Superman's it's actually about that. That would be beings like (Martian Manhunter, Shazam, Orion, Black Adam, ect). Captain Atom hasn't really displayed he's on Superman's level to be honest, so to be fair that can't really be said. Although he easily makes up for it with his other abilities. I agree with the rest though.

Also; that's a cool striking feat, but when Cap can amp himself to be faster, stronger, and more durable than Thor it doesn't mean all that much.

Has Captain Atom actually done this? Can you tell me of an exact time of this happening? I mean who say's when he amplifies himself that he becomes faster, stronger, and all of the other things you've said above?

I'm assuming that this is the instance in which you're talking about, and if you look at what happens it didn't end well for Apollo... at all.

In this same story Captain Atom was easily handling the likes of Mr. Majestic, who I believe is superior to Apollo.

Mr Majestic is superior to Captain Atom, yeah your correct on that part, but in no way was Captain Atom handling him. He pretty much only blasted him, and hit him through the ground, and if I remember correctly,

Captain Atom also willingly took punishment from Apollo earlier in the story and then used his energy absorption against him to nearly kill him, so Apollo doesn't have a solid track record against Atom.

I thought he killed Apollo by releasing his own energies?

As for your whole "asking for proof" regarding the molecular manipulation; just because Thor is a god doesn't mean I'd have to show Atom manipulating the molecules of a DC character who also has a "God" title within their names.

That's not even what I said, I said in Marvel characters with godly status's have been capable of resisting certain things which easily effected other beings. Some examples would be

  1. When the whole entire Marvel 616 earth was put to sleep by Nightmare, a selected few beings were unaffected like Thor and Snowbird. It was stated because of their godly status.
  2. Thor and Hercules have resisted the Decay's touch because of their godly status.
  3. Thor has resisted Phoenix Force Emma Frost's telepathy because it was extremely hard to enter the mind of a God

There is some examples, that's what I was getting at.

Also you should be the one providing me with someone who Captain Atoms used his matter manipulation on, I've given examples of who Thor used his abilities on yet you won't now. Just because a being has matter manipulation, doesn't mean you can transmute everything they come across. I've only asked for Atom using it on someone, not anyone with a godly status.

What I'm going to ask you is to provide either a scan or an issue number in which Thor resists transmutation; I ask this because it's something that Captain Atom has done to someone name Maul ( a character who is pretty much like Hulk) to remove some of his muscle mass thus reverting him back to a human level character, I see no reason why he couldn't simply transmute Thor.

Finally. I can't remember the actual issues in-which Thor resisted transmutation, so I guess I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here, but the best thing I can say is Mjolnir has transmutation abilities too (Transmuted The Absorbing Man into helium, which is extremely impressive) , so it's probable it can reverse the effects.

The problem is that Atom can absorb limitless energy; granted if he absorbed ALL of Thor's energy at once it wouldn't bode well, but a steady stream would work just fine.

Thor can do the same, what makes Captain Atom so much better?

Atom quite effortlessly used his own powers to create & absorb a universe. People constantly say that because he did this inside the Quantum Field that it doesn't count, but that makes no sense because Atom is constantly connected to the Quantum Field, it's the source of all his power, he could emulate such a large feat again if he had to.

Did I read that correctly? Captain Atom has created and absorbed an entire universe? Damn, insanely impressive, but I'm going to agree with the others. Being connected, and being inside the Quantum Field is different things. If he's connected he can't absorb all of the near limitless energy inside, while if he was inside of it he has all of the energy around him to simply do anything he wishes. So you are quite wrong.

Thor can't continuously amplify his own strength or speed to my knowledge; whereas Captain Atom is connected to a limitless field of energy that allows him to do just that. He can easily overpower Thor's "advantages" and become the winner of this fight quite easily.

I have never seen Captain Atom amplify his speed, I think he's used energy to make his strength surround with them to cause more damage, but I've never seen him make it so his strength gradually increased or speed for that matter. If this was the case he could have quite easily defeated Superman in that battle. I really only see him being able to tap into a near limitless energy source as his only advantage to be honest. Captain Atom is the only one getting overpowered here.

Summary

Thor is powerful in his base form; however, it's important to note that Thor isn't gifted with the prize of Combat Speed (his travel speed is impressive) but I've seen him struggle with Street Level characters from time to time, and when he was fighting the likes of Quicksilver he failed to tag him and had to use an AOE attack just to knock him off his feet.

Not really as if Captain Atom is fast himself, but has he shown any feats that he can move as fast as lighting in speed while fighting because Thor has been described as that. There is also the fact that he can literally shoot lightning at Captain Atom, can he react fast enough to dodge or absorb the lightning before it hits him? Heck, if Thor throws Mjolnir, once it's released from his hands it can move at speeds faster than light, how will Captain Atom dodge that? Thor can even mentally control it, so it would take more than one dodge to dodge it. I also wouldn't think Captain Atom would want to get hit by it because along with Beta Ray Bill's Storm Breaker, it was capable of collapsing a portal which eclipsed the earth itself.

Transmutation could prove to be Thor's downfall, if he gets turned into something or has his strength taken away from him via Atomic Transmutation like Atom did to Maul then I see him going down fairly quickly. If Thor does manage to resist such an attack (you'll have to show me that) then Atom can engage in physical confrontation.

It could very well, and to be honest this is your best bet at winning, but it's not guaranteed as I've said before, Thor has matter manipulation of his own. Also engaging Thor physically wouldn't be the best decision.

Atom has the advantage here though, perhaps not at the start, but Atom can quite simply alter his own physical stats due to his tie to the Quantum Field which grants him limitless energy. Atoms energy reserves could also be used to overwhelm Thor, sure Thor can absorb some energy, but when Atom is continuously spitting out waves and waves of powerful energy while also increasing his own physical stats and giving Thor a beat down I don't see Thor having much of a chance.

I'm still not sold on the Quantum Field amplifying all of Captain Atom's physical stats, because from what I've seen it only gave him a lot more energy at his disposal, but as I've said above Thor can simply manipulate that energy for various effects. Also don't think Thor can't block Captain Atom's energy if he some how gets to an insanely powerful level as he's been shown to block energy blasts from Odin using Gungir. (By spinning Mjolnir.

That's it for now, nice post by the way, I'm ready to see your next one :P

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@heirtothekingdom: It seems like we're getting pretty close to the end of our debate here; want to do one more post each sort of as concluding posts and see if we're both satisfied after that? I say this because the debate is a little over 2 weeks old and I think we've both presented our cases quite fairly.

So in short; I'll do my concluding, you can do yours, and then we can potentially go to votes?

(Nice stuff in your post BTW.)

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#34  Edited By HeirToTheKingdom
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I'll try and have my post up tomorrow, been back at school (which takes up tons of time) and I've had some family stuff going on. Thankfully tomorrow is my day off from everything so I can crank out my closing post.

I seriously apologize for making you wait so long.

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I'll try and have my post up tomorrow, been back at school (which takes up tons of time) and I've had some family stuff going on. Thankfully tomorrow is my day off from everything so I can crank out my closing post.

I seriously apologize for making you wait so long.

No worries, we'll just let everything out in this closing post :P

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Barry wins.

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@ostyo said:

Barry wins.

really thats impossible to say since they HAVENT EVEN FINISHED YET! maybe you could wait.

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t4v, pls

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@serrure: Don't need to, Captain Atom > Thor.

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Conclusion Post

So since this has gone on for far too long (mostly due to me being bad at replying to things, oopsies) it's time I write my final post.

I'll address the points you've made, reinforce my own argument, and then make a short summary of why Captain Atom wins this shindig.

Counters

Onward!

Interesting, I never knew Captain Atom can simply amplify his strength. I have a question though, has he actually done this, or is this based off an assumption since he can tap into a near infinite power source? If it is, than it doesn't necessarily mean he can amplify his physicals, and even if he could it doesn't give him a guarantee win against the Odinson. Thor is still quite stronger at first, and even if Atom amplifies himself, it will take some time which Thor can have Atom defeated by. Also judging from what I've seen of Atom, he's not someone to continue a physical brawl if he's losing, he would go and apply his energy projection, not so much amplify his physicals.

He has actually done this; he's amplified his physical abilities before (strength included) and he's amplified his sensory perception in order to see/hear/etc better.

As for you mentioning that Thor's base strength is incredibly strong, so is Atoms. He regularly contends with people within Thor's tier such as Apollo and Mr.Majestic, and he's shown that he has enough physical strength to go purely H2H with them while also rocking the durability to roll with their punches, Thor's physical abilities don't bring anything new to the table that would make him different than what Atom's dealt with in the past.

You also mention that Atom isn't one to continue a physical brawl if he's losing which means:

  1. You think that Atom would lose the physical fight with Thor, which I haven't seen much of a case for. You mentioned that Thor has great striking power and that he's strong, and I've explained that Atom is just as strong and is INCREDIBLY durable due to the material his skin is made out of.
  2. You think that Atom would resort to energy attacks if he started faltering in the H2H brawl; but you seemed to forget the fact that Atom can easily do both at once, expelling energy blasts from his body while also amplifying his physical abilities.

Atom is far more versatile than Thor is in this fight, honestly, Thor doesn't bring anything new to the table that Atom hasn't dealt with in other foes besides the fact that Thor uses a magical hammer.

Thor is definitely going to overpower Atom physically. Captain Atom can absorb as much energy from the Quantum Field as he wants, but just know Thor has feats which suggest he can simply drain the energy from him, and trust me it's something he would do. If Thor see's that Atom is simply absorbing energy from an outside source, he can simply do two things.

  1. Thor can simply absorb Captain Atom's energy and store it inside Mjolnir which he can infuse his own energies into it thus making it a lot more powerful. Then fire it back at Captain Atom as an energy blast.
  2. Or he can open a portal to the end of the universe, absorb the energy from Captain Atom and dispel all of the energy into the end of the universe. Just so you know, he did this exact thing to the Phoenix Force, so Captain Atom's energy won't be too much.

So Thor has ways around Captain Atom's energy amplification.

I still see no evidence in your posts that Thor has strength enough to truly overpower Atom, honestly, it'd be a stalemate at BEST and that's pushing it. When you add on the fact that Atom can amplify his own physical abilities (strength included) to simply put any physical encounter in Atom's favor.

In response to your bullet points:

  1. That's fantastic except for the fact that Captain Atom & his energies are immune to magic; and last I knew Thor's hammer was magical. If you're going to try and use a magical item (Mjolnir) and absorb energy that has been described as 'Anti-Magic' you're going to have a terribly bad time and I don't see it working.
  2. As I've mentioned in point number 1 - Mjolnir won't be able to absorb Captain Atom's energies due to the effects it has on magical items & magic itself. Plus, Captain Atom has an infinite amount of energy so it's not like he's going to run out if Thor DOES somehow manage to absorb his energy it's not going to drain Atom at all, he can keep getting more and more of it. Lastly, I don't see Thor viewing Captain Atom as the same level threat as the Phoenix Force, I doubt he'd resort to that tactic.

To further show Captain Atom's magical immunity I'll use another lovely panel/scan:

No Caption Provided

Detective Chimp and other members of the Shadowpact (DC's experts on magic and the such - known for battling the Spectre during Day of Vengeance) explain that Captain Atom's skin is immune to magic and that the non-magical energies inside of him have a negative effect on magic, thus granting Captain Atom a huge advantage over magic based characters & artifacts. Earlier in the story Captain Atom was a weapon for Mirabai, a powerful magic user who had Captain Atom fight her foes due to the fact that he had this effect on magic.

Later on in the story Captain Atom is used by Mordru (that JSA villain known for being an incredibly over powered magical team-buster) because Mordu's spells and abilities wouldn't be powerful enough to put down another magic user. Captain Atom then went in, completely unharmed by the magic, and dominated that foe.

So magic & Captain Atom don't mix, so trying to absorb Captain Atom's energies is just going to have a terrible effect on the magic user/artifact trying to absorb him, it just won't work.

Ah, I see this coming. I'm aware of Captain Atom's high end durability feats, they are impressive, but they do not prove Thor's lightning won't work on him. It's a different form of energy, and different forms of energy will effect him differently even if he's a living absorber. For starters of course a nuclear explosion wouldn't do nothing to Captain Atom, he literally absorbs nuclear power plants for energy and such, it's obviously not going to effect him. Monarch was dishing out the same energy Captain Atom manipulates I believe, so he would have more resistance to it than say Superman or Martian Manhunter. Also just because he tanked energy blasts from Monarch, doesn't mean he can tank Thor's. Casual lightning bolts from Thor have hurt beings like Hyperion, Hulk, and even Cosmic beings. I'm pretty sure it will hurt Captain Atom. I mean he's not immune to energy based attacks just because he can absorb energy, Green Lantern Hal Jordan hurt him enough with energy blasts in they're battle. So has Power Girl with her heat vision, so although he can absorb Thor's energy based attacks. doesn't necessarily mean he will.

At the base of things; energy is energy, Thor's lightning isn't going to be any different. If Thor's lightning is magical in any way it literally won't have any effect on Captain Atom, and if it's just normal lightning then it'll tickle Captain Atom as he absorb it into the Quantum Field. In Captain Atom #43 - It's Always Something Nekron explains that the Quantum Field is the following:

The Quantum Field is the life energy of the natural plane; it's connected with every living creature in the universe. Captain Atom isn't limited to absorbing purely nuclear energy; he can absorb and manipulate ALL forms of energy. Thor's lightning is just a form of energy, if it's magic based it won't do anything, if it's just normal lightning then Captain Atom can absorb it without it causing much harm.

You mention that Captain Atom has been harmed by Hal Jordan & Power Girl via their energy attacks, sure he's been hit by them, and he might've gone "ow" but it wasn't ever enough to put him down or kill him, it was more like the type of pain one experiences when they stub their toe. It might hurt but it's mostly an annoyance.

While Thor has absorbed energy straight out of beings nearly killing them with Mjolnir. What's stopping Thor from absorbing Captain Atom's energy he gets from the Quantum Field? I basically see them canceling each other out, in-which Thor would win with regular stats. There is also the fact that Atom probably wouldn't do that for a while, and Thor can surely knock him out with his better physicals beforehand.

The fact that Atom's energies cancel out magic/magical objects and the fact that Thor can't absorb an unlimited amount of energy; there's also no reason for Atom to not amplify himself in a battle (something he's done plenty of times before) especially when he's morals off & going all out.

Thor is a brawler who manipulates the weather, and controls a magical hammer which gives him various other abilities. I can do that too. Also, as I've said before, can you tell me of someone or something as powerful or durable as Thor?

Well I've already explained the magical hammer is useless; and I'm fairly sure I already mentioned that Captain Atom used his molecular manipulation on a character who is basically Wildstorm's version of Hulk, known as Maul.

Maul can manipulate his mass to make himself larger and stronger. When he fought Captain Atom it was simply a matter of Atom manipulating his molecules and reverting him back into his human form.

Regardless if Thor goes all out or not physically, once he does there is going to be a distinct showing of who's physically superior, and it's Thor. High end feats are being used for Captain Atom too than because, he's not always shown at near Superman level strength while Thor has shown that consistently. Although I see what you mean, it's not really going to be a factor in this battle.

You're going to argue that Captain Atom's inconsistent when you're using Thor? The same exact Thor that:

  • Had to use an AOE attack to hit Quicksilver because he was struggling to actually strike him with lightning or his hammer
  • Couldn't hit Spider-Man with his hammer strikes and got hit in the head several times before resorting to an AOE attack in The Mighty Thor #448 - Secret Agendas!
  • Got called slow by Captain America after being hit by some basic metal training balls in The Mighty Thor #447 - Strange Alliances
  • Got blitzed by Mongoose TWICE
  • Had trouble w/Wolverine in combat and stated something along the lines of Wolverine being too quick?

Captain Atom on the other hand has always been in the same strength class of Superman Level characters; I don't know why you're saying I'm only using high end feats for Atom when I'm just using some rather regular showings.

Heck, the bullet points I just made above pretty much show that Thor doesn't even have the consistent speed or reaction time to contend with Captain Atom once they entered a physical brawl, Thor struggled with Street Level characters in the speed department.

Interesting, although i'm going to say one thing. A lot of characters in DC have been stated to have "Superman level strength", but it doesn't necessarily mean they do. Captain Atom may be near Superman's strength, but there is only a certain amount of characters who actually have strength so close to Superman's it's actually about that. That would be beings like (Martian Manhunter, Shazam, Orion, Black Adam, ect). Captain Atom hasn't really displayed he's on Superman's level to be honest, so to be fair that can't really be said. Although he easily makes up for it with his other abilities. I agree with the rest though.

Yes he has.

I've mentioned Mr. Majestic several times throughout this debate, the same Mr. Majestic that Captain Atom fought and KO-d. The same Mr. Majestic that was created with the intentions of being stronger than Superman.

Atom IS in that weight class, and he has similar strength. He doesn't have as many showings because he isn't a very popular character, but he has the consistent strength showings to put him in that weight class.

Has Captain Atom actually done this? Can you tell me of an exact time of this happening? I mean who say's when he amplifies himself that he becomes faster, stronger, and all of the other things you've said above?

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> Within a microsecond Captain Atom taps into the Quantum Field to release the force needed to enhance his strength.

He can do it, and he can do it quickly.

Mr Majestic is superior to Captain Atom, yeah your correct on that part, but in no way was Captain Atom handling him. He pretty much only blasted him, and hit him through the ground, and if I remember correctly,

So knocking him out isn't handling him? When Captain Atom blasted him & then smashed him through the ground Majestic didn't jump right back up.

I thought he killed Apollo by releasing his own energies?

He fought Apollo twice in the story.

Also you should be the one providing me with someone who Captain Atoms used his matter manipulation on, I've given examples of who Thor used his abilities on yet you won't now. Just because a being has matter manipulation, doesn't mean you can transmute everything they come across. I've only asked for Atom using it on someone, not anyone with a godly status.

He's used it on Maul; Wildstorm's Hulk. I did mention this in my first Counter Post.

Finally. I can't remember the actual issues in-which Thor resisted transmutation, so I guess I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here, but the best thing I can say is Mjolnir has transmutation abilities too (Transmuted The Absorbing Man into helium, which is extremely impressive) , so it's probable it can reverse the effects.

Potentially; but as I've explained in this post, Captain Atom's energies seriously mess with magic.

Thor can do the same, what makes Captain Atom so much better?

The fact that he's connected to a force that is the energy for all of life and the fact that Thor's magical hammer won't work well on Captain Atom's anti-magic energies.

Did I read that correctly? Captain Atom has created and absorbed an entire universe? Damn, insanely impressive, but I'm going to agree with the others. Being connected, and being inside the Quantum Field is different things. If he's connected he can't absorb all of the near limitless energy inside, while if he was inside of it he has all of the energy around him to simply do anything he wishes. So you are quite wrong.

Eh; we can agree to disagree. He always has access to the Quantum field regardless if he's IN it or outside of it. I don't see the difference but this isn't a large debate point so we can leave it at that.

I have never seen Captain Atom amplify his speed, I think he's used energy to make his strength surround with them to cause more damage, but I've never seen him make it so his strength gradually increased or speed for that matter. If this was the case he could have quite easily defeated Superman in that battle. I really only see him being able to tap into a near limitless energy source as his only advantage to be honest. Captain Atom is the only one getting overpowered here.

I can't quote an exact intstance in which he's done this, and I don't feel like going through all of Captain Atom's appearances to debate combat speed against Thor. We've seen him amplify his senses with the Quantum field and he's amplified his strength with it, I see no reason why speed (a physical attribute) couldn't be amplified but no big, Thor isn't quick in combat so it's not even required.

Captain Atom isn't getting overpowered here; and all of my points explain why.

Summary

Thor got a terrible matchup when facing Captain Atom for the following reasons:

  • Physically, they're similar, and as I've mentioned Captain Atom can increase his strength and it only takes him a microsecond to do so.
  • Atom's skin is immune to magic, Mjolnir's magical abilities won't be useful against him at all.
  • Atom's energy negates magic, trying to absorb it with a magical artifact isn't going to work
  • Thor's combat speed is awful. Atom isn't Flash, but Thor isn't quicker than him in any sense of the word.

Atom can simply absorb whatever energy based attacks Thor throws at him, but due to Atom's reactions w/magic Thor can't do the same, and in a physical battle it's only microseconds before Captain Atom greatly surpasses Thor due to him amplifying his strength via Quantum Field.

Fun debate, @heirtothekingdom, I look forward to your response and I think I'm ready for votes once you've posted your finisher :)

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Lvenger

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Tag me for votes once this is done please.

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#50  Edited By HeirToTheKingdom

@thetruebarryallen:

Final Post.

Counters

He has actually done this; he's amplified his physical abilities before (strength included) and he's amplified his sensory perception in order to see/hear/etc better.

Okay, you've said he's done this, but you have yet to show or tell me of an actual encounter this has happened in. You've shown nothing to say he can out-muscle Thor with or without the amplification, and that is likely the only way Captain Atom could take Thor from what you say. I also have never seen him increase his perception or anything else, and you still haven't given me an instance of it happening. It's not looking very presenting here.

As for you mentioning that Thor's base strength is incredibly strong, so is Atoms. He regularly contends with people within Thor's tier such as Apollo and Mr.Majestic, and he's shown that he has enough physical strength to go purely H2H with them while also rocking the durability to roll with their punches

Captain Atom is strong, but he isn't as strong as Thor. I don't see where you get the idea that they're are on equal footing physically. Without Mjolnir, yeah they are. While Thor is holding Mjolnir he out-classes Atom physically. For starters he held his own with Apollo, that's nice and all, but he isn't really on Thor's level, and has always been shown as a weaker Superman. Not the best of comparisons. His fight with Mr.Majestic wasn't even that impressive in regards to his physicality. He blasted Mr.Majestic with an energy blast, and than smashed him into the floor. That's all. In the next encounter, he hits Majestic, who then returns it back with a much more devastating blow. Hardly anything to suggest he can compete with Mr.Majestic physically. We're talking about a guy who has shown strength feats above Superman, and more on the levels of pushing planets alone. Captain Atom simply can't hang with that kind of strength. He can endure his punches, or hammer strikes, but not too much. Atom has always been more durable on the side towards energy based attacks, due to him being an energy being.

Thor's physical abilities don't bring anything new to the table that would make him different than what Atom's dealt with in the past.

You seem to be doubting Thor's physical abilities or underestimating them. I think I should give you some feats so you can understand that if Captain Atom engages Thor physically he's not winning.

  • Thor has struck Nul from one side of the planet to the other in one strike. (This was after the fact that he flew into space and landed there)
  • Has shook Asgard with his fight against Red-Norvell (They were using nothing but physical strength)
  • Has almost killed Hulk with a single blow when angry
  • Has knocked back Galactus more times with strikes than almost anyone. (It has hurt Galactus, and even sent him back)

Heck when Thor and Beta Ray Bill encountered a giant portal, and I mean giant. Look here is a showing of how big the portal was. ( Yes those things around the portal are stars and planetoids)

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The combined might of there hammers were capable of destroying that portal. Just take in the sheer size of such a portal, so even if took both of them together, we can judge that Thor did half or a little more of this feat. (Look below)

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You can sit there all day and say Captain Atom is on Thor's level physically, but feats and showings say Thor has more strength behind him. Thor has better striking feats than even Superman, how does Captain Atom who's inferior compare? He doesn't and in this aspect, Thor has him beat.

You also mention that Atom isn't one to continue a physical brawl if he's losing which means:

      1. You think that Atom would lose the physical fight with Thor, which I haven't seen much of a case for. You mentioned that Thor has great striking power and that he's strong, and I've explained that Atom is just as strong and is INCREDIBLY durable due to the material his skin is made out of.
      2. You think that Atom would resort to energy attacks if he started faltering in the H2H brawl; but you seemed to forget the fact that Atom can easily do both at once, expelling energy blasts from his body while also amplifying his physical abilities.

  1. I've shown far more than you have towards a physical battle between the two. You have been going off Atom augmenting his strength to contend with Thor when I have shown he simply can't hang with Thor too long. Atom may have incredibly durable skin, but he can still be knocked out. He has been hurt by Power Girl which means Thor can do the same.
  2. Yeah he can, but Thor can do the same with his lighting, and such too. Captain Atom can absorb energy, but so can Thor. I highly doubt either one can absorb everyone of the others attacks though. Atom has been hit by energy attacks light Hal Jordan's, and seeing how lighting would be harder to dodge, I can see him being struck by it too.

Atom is far more versatile than Thor is in this fight, honestly, Thor doesn't bring anything new to the table that Atom hasn't dealt with in other foes besides the fact that Thor uses a magical hammer.

So being versatile wins you the battle now? Hulk beats almost everyone he encounters, and the man has only one actual form of damage output. Thor isn't even far behind in terms of versatility, and can do a lot of what Atom can do, from absorbing energy to firing it. You said Thor hasn't brought anything new to the tables, well Atom hasn't either. Thor has fought the Absorbing Man who can absorb anything he touches. Heck even energy. He's absorb Mjolnir material (Uru), and the Sentry's energy. Doesn't seem like anything new to Thor either.

I still see no evidence in your posts that Thor has strength enough to truly overpower Atom, honestly, it'd be a stalemate at BEST and that's pushing it. When you add on the fact that Atom can amplify his own physical abilities (strength included) to simply put any physical encounter in Atom's favor.

What I've shown above has shown otherwise. It would be great if you've stopped stating that and actually presented something Captain Atom has done to put him on Thor's level physically other than those two encounters with Apollo or Mr.Majestic. Everything you stated thus far lacks support.

In response to your bullet points:

    1. That's fantastic except for the fact that Captain Atom & his energies are immune to magic; and last I knew Thor's hammer was magical. If you're going to try and use a magical item (Mjolnir) and absorb energy that has been described as 'Anti-Magic' you're going to have a terribly bad time and I don't see it working.
    2. As I've mentioned in point number 1 - Mjolnir won't be able to absorb Captain Atom's energies due to the effects it has on magical items & magic itself. Plus, Captain Atom has an infinite amount of energy so it's not like he's going to run out if Thor DOES somehow manage to absorb his energy it's not going to drain Atom at all, he can keep getting more and more of it. Lastly, I don't see Thor viewing Captain Atom as the same level threat as the Phoenix Force, I doubt he'd resort to that tactic.

  1. Why is it every time people hear Thor or Mjolnir, they think all of their power is magic. Thor doesn't always spute off magical energy, if he wants to strike you with a regular lightning bolt he can, if he wants to knock you with a regular hammer strike, he can too. Just because his hammer is magic, doesn't mean the abilities are tied to it. Him being able to absorb energy has nothing to do with "magic". He won't have any magical feedback trouble at all.
  2. He doesn't need to run out of energy, doesn;t matter to Thor. The Odinson will just absorb the energy fired upon him, heck Thor doesn't even need to block his energy blast. He can simply slap it aside with his hammer.

As for Thor viewing Atom as the same threat as the Phoenix Force, it doesn't matter. It's still a tactic he could use against a being who taps into a near limitless life source, just like the Phoenix is itself.

To further show Captain Atom's magical immunity I'll use another lovely panel/scan:

Detective Chimp and other members of the Shadowpact (DC's experts on magic and the such - known for battling the Spectre during Day of Vengeance) explain that Captain Atom's skin is immune to magic and that the non-magical energies inside of him have a negative effect on magic, thus granting Captain Atom a huge advantage over magic based characters & artifacts. Earlier in the story Captain Atom was a weapon for Mirabai, a powerful magic user who had Captain Atom fight her foes due to the fact that he had this effect on magic.

Later on in the story Captain Atom is used by Mordru (that JSA villain known for being an incredibly over powered magical team-buster) because Mordu's spells and abilities wouldn't be powerful enough to put down another magic user. Captain Atom then went in, completely unharmed by the magic, and dominated that foe.

So magic & Captain Atom don't mix, so trying to absorb Captain Atom's energies is just going to have a terrible effect on the magic user/artifact trying to absorb him, it just won't work.

Cool and all, but Thor doesn't use magic in the way you think.

At the base of things; energy is energy, Thor's lightning isn't going to be any different. If Thor's lightning is magical in any way it literally won't have any effect on Captain Atom, and if it's just normal lightning then it'll tickle Captain Atom as he absorb it into the Quantum Field. In Captain Atom #43 - It's Always Something Nekron explains that the Quantum Field is the following:

The Quantum Field is the life energy of the natural plane; it's connected with every living creature in the universe. Captain Atom isn't limited to absorbing purely nuclear energy; he can absorb and manipulate ALL forms of energy. Thor's lightning is just a form of energy, if it's magic based it won't do anything, if it's just normal lightning then Captain Atom can absorb it without it causing much harm.

You mention that Captain Atom has been harmed by Hal Jordan & Power Girl via their energy attacks, sure he's been hit by them, and he might've gone "ow" but it wasn't ever enough to put him down or kill him, it was more like the type of pain one experiences when they stub their toe. It might hurt but it's mostly an annoyance.

Thor doesn't rely on magic like that man. This is all irrelevant too the debate like above. No offense.

The fact that Atom's energies cancel out magic/magical objects and the fact that Thor can't absorb an unlimited amount of energy; there's also no reason for Atom to not amplify himself in a battle (something he's done plenty of times before) especially when he's morals off & going all out.

Lol, again. Tell me of an example of Atom amplifying himself to levels which surpass Thor. Not even going to go upon the energy part again.

Well I've already explained the magical hammer is useless; and I'm fairly sure I already mentioned that Captain Atom used his molecular manipulation on a character who is basically Wildstorm's version of Hulk, known as Maul.

Again already said Mjolnir's abilities aren't all tied to magic, so no. Also Maul may be the Wildstorms version of Hulk, but he isn't nearly as powerful as Hulk. Not a good comparison, not to mention Thor has more resistance to molecule manipulation.

Maul can manipulate his mass to make himself larger and stronger. When he fought Captain Atom it was simply a matter of Atom manipulating his molecules and reverting him back into his human form

At the end of the day, Atom hasn't manipulated the molecules of Thor. The only beings who've done such things from my memory are Odin, Sersi, and Molecule Man. They all are much more better molecule manipulators than Atom. Everyone else has failed to manipulate Thor, try again.

You're going to argue that Captain Atom's inconsistent when you're using Thor? The same exact Thor that:

I laugh at this, you Viners love to share each others feats not knowing the exact context behind them.

      • Had to use an AOE attack to hit Quicksilver because he was struggling to actually strike him with lightning or his hammer
      • Couldn't hit Spider-Man with his hammer strikes and got hit in the head several times before resorting to an AOE attack in The Mighty Thor #448 - Secret Agendas!
      • Got called slow by Captain America after being hit by some basic metal training balls in The Mighty Thor #447 - Strange Alliances
      • Got blitzed by Mongoose TWICE
      • Had trouble w/Wolverine in combat and stated something along the lines of Wolverine being too quick?
  1. He used an AOE attack to attack Quicksilver, big whoop? Marvel doesn't let anyone outspeed Quicksilver unless your someone like Monica Rambeau. Atom wouldn't have tagged him either. Thor only used lightning strikes on Pietro by the way, which he is faster than. When he struck, Pietro was down. Thor wasn't displayed slow there, because he still reached Pietro and struck the ground before he could move.
  2. That wasn't even regular Thor, that was Eric Masterson who was using Thor's powers, and he had trouble using them and was displayed quite weaker. Try again.
  3. Once again Eric Masterson, try again.
  4. The only real time he was shown with low speed.
  5. Wolverine was bloodlusted, and Thor was barely trying. Heck he even blocked some of his blows. He dealt with Logan easily when he got serious.

5 points, but only one is good..

Yeah Thor is so slow. That's why he can casually blocks multiple energy blasts (3 it seems) with one sing;e swing.

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Captain Atom on the other hand has always been in the same strength class of Superman Level characters; I don't know why you're saying I'm only using high end feats for Atom when I'm just using some rather regular showings.

You know what's funny, you tried to downgrade Thor's speed, and in the end you ended up displaying speed feats for Thor in such a way you haven't done for Captain Atom. Maybe you should display feats, instead of labeling him as "Superman level class" for every physicality..

Heck, the bullet points I just made above pretty much show that Thor doesn't even have the consistent speed or reaction time to contend with Captain Atom once they entered a physical brawl, Thor struggled with Street Level characters in the speed department.

And what has Captain Atom shown? Nothing from what you've shown. Thor has kept up with beings like Silver Surfer, Hyperion, Prime, Sentry, and more. What makes Captain Atom so much more faster than those guys?

Yes he has.

I've mentioned Mr. Majestic several times throughout this debate, the same Mr. Majestic that Captain Atom fought and KO-d. The same Mr. Majestic that was created with the intentions of being stronger than Superman.

He didn't knock Majestic out using only physical strength, but with energy blasts too, and although Majestic is strong, his durability isn't exactly on par. Just because he's knocked out Majestic, doesn't mean he'll beat Thor. The Odinson has knocked out beings who would laugh at Atoms attacks, so don't use that as a single display.

Atom IS in that weight class, and he has similar strength. He doesn't have as many showings because he isn't a very popular character, but he has the consistent strength showings to put him in that weight class.

Same weight class, less strength. Superman, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter are in the same weight class, but we all know Wonder Woman is quite weaker than the other two physically. Atom simply can't compete.

> Within a microsecond Captain Atom taps into the Quantum Field to release the force needed to enhance his strength.

He can do it, and he can do it quickly.

Thor has reacted in microseconds to counter an attack, I guess we cancel out. See what I did there? A single showing can't gauge one's ability, and that's exactly what your doing for each aspect, telling me a single or two showings.

So knocking him out isn't handling him? When Captain Atom blasted him & then smashed him through the ground Majestic didn't jump right back up.

Thor has shown better durability feats than Mr.Majestic, and okay Atom has knocked out Majestic. Thor has knocked out Silver Surfer, someone superior to Atom, I guess he can knock Atom out too. I mean that's how your debating, isn't it?

He fought Apollo twice in the story.

Nice Apollo is still inferior to Thor though.

He's used it on Maul; Wildstorm's Hulk. I did mention this in my first Counter Post.

It's more of your opinion that he's Wildstorm's version of Hulk, which he could very well be. I see what your trying to do, by saying he's Wildstorm's version of Hulk, you're trying to give off the effect that he's as powerful, which isn't the case.

Potentially; but as I've explained in this post, Captain Atom's energies seriously mess with magic.

Already went over this.

The fact that he's connected to a force that is the energy for all of life and the fact that Thor's magical hammer won't work well on Captain Atom's anti-magic energies.

You say it as if Atom can't be defeated by manipulating a near limitless form of energy. He can still be knocked out, which Thor is fully capable of doing.

Eh; we can agree to disagree. He always has access to the Quantum field regardless if he's IN it or outside of it. I don't see the difference but this isn't a large debate point so we can leave it at that.

Okay, I disagree.

I can't quote an exact intstance in which he's done this, and I don't feel like going through all of Captain Atom's appearances to debate combat speed against Thor. We've seen him amplify his senses with the Quantum field and he's amplified his strength with it, I see no reason why speed (a physical attribute) couldn't be amplified but no big, Thor isn't quick in combat so it's not even required.

All I wanted you to do is show me how much he has gotten amplified by tapping into the energy source, and you haven't shown it. So basically you don't know, for all we know he could be a little stronger or such. Thor has displayed better feats in all those regards, even if he hasn't I went about showing them better than you have.

Captain Atom isn't getting overpowered here; and all of my points explain why.

Most of your points work against you, and Thor does overpower Captain Atom.

Summary

Thor got a terrible matchup when facing Captain Atom for the following reasons:

  • Physically, they're similar, and as I've mentioned Captain Atom can increase his strength and it only takes him a microsecond to do so.
  • Atom's skin is immune to magic, Mjolnir's magical abilities won't be useful against him at all.
  • Atom's energy negates magic, trying to absorb it with a magical artifact isn't going to work
  • Thor's combat speed is awful. Atom isn't Flash, but Thor isn't quicker than him in any sense of the word.

Summary

Don't see how it's a terrible match-up when Thor has him beat almost everywhere.

  • Thor is physically stronger, and has superior striking output than Captain Atom
  • More durable than Captain Atom can fight through pain much more better
  • Thor doesn't even use magic like than so most of those points were mute
  • Thor's combat speed was shown better here than Captain Atom's even though it was downplayed
  • Thor can absorb, block, or send away Captain Atom's energy blasts

I guess we're down. Opening voting now @thetruebarryallen

Was nice debating with you.