@zgtfreak: Hmm, can we use Composite-highballed DC cosmology (but that I just mean my interpretation), which, according to the cosmology stuff you sent in the Suggsverse thread, would make DC one infinite-D lower than Umineko, so that'll equal things a little bit.
Also, will be just be discussing about the physical aspect of the cosmology (how many infinite-Ds, how many universe/multiverses per instant) or will be go into their metaphysical aspects to?
Note: I do understand that dimensions in both Umineko and DC are abstract, but I was just wondering about the rules.
@youraverageguy: Hm... Well, after putting a lot of thoughts into dimensional tiering, I've really figured that they don't work in a cross-verse scenario for several reasons in most cases. I only mentioned WTC's cosmology against Suggverse to really show that Suggverse has no chance against WTC in any aspect. But overall, I feel that comparing cosmology power in cross-verse scenarios usually don't work and that hax matter more. I'm releasing a thread soon addressing all the issues with dimensional tiering and will send you the link when I post it. This line of thinking isn't to further some bias agenda btw, as cosmology arguments help WTC massively against DC, yet I don't believe in them, even if it does help.
@zgtfreak: Ironically I share that line of thought XD I just thought you liked cosmological tiering due to you being part of that group that brings up "infinite-D" and stuff.
But I think the DC team should due it as they are quite a bit above the Leviathan of Stories who has a bunch of void/narrative related hax which shoudl give Bern some trouble. Although I am aware that they can revive from nothingness, but a hierarchy of nothingness where each transcendence the lower in a reality-fiction way, prehaps somewhere in that hierarchy we will run into a void that Bern can regen from. But that sounds no-limit fallcy.
Personally, I think Perpetua stands somewhere in the Outerversal tier (sorry for bringing this up, there was no better way for me to phrase it, but it isn't the VsBattles definition). Bern isn't anywhere in that tier, not even low Outerversal so she gets stomped by Prepetua who can draw from the Presence's unconscious (the Source).
@youraverageguy: Hm... Well, after putting a lot of thoughts into dimensional tiering, I've really figured that they don't work in a cross-verse scenario for several reasons in most cases. I only mentioned WTC's cosmology against Suggverse to really show that Suggverse has no chance against WTC in any aspect. But overall, I feel that comparing cosmology power in cross-verse scenarios usually don't work and that hax matter more. I'm releasing a thread soon addressing all the issues with dimensional tiering and will send you the link when I post it. This line of thinking isn't to further some bias agenda btw, as cosmology arguments help WTC massively against DC, yet I don't believe in them, even if it does help.
Besides the obvious problems with cosmology,I have some personal issues too.Mainly due to the overall devoid and lifeless feel of cosmology tiering and it feels as if we are debating everything other than the characters themselves.
Not saying it should be completely ignored but at some point we should consider the fact that stuff can be arbitrary too.For example even if WTC had jumped directly from the human domain to the creator domain would that have affected the overall power of the creator domain?Nope(of course unless this is vsbattleswiki).My stance is that at some point comparing cosmologies just becomes kind of illogical as we move closer to the top tiers of metaphysically rich verses.There is also the issue that I have already pointed out when some of the higher layers function the exact same as the lower layers showing street tier characters and other stuff(example dark tower)
@youraverageguy: Ironically I share that line of thought XD I just thought you liked cosmological tiering due to you being part of that group that brings up "infinite-D" and stuff.
That was a long time ago. We used cosmology tiering to debunk VS Battle's insane ways of scaling cosmologies. After we dealt with that, I convinced Sungsam to show our real views, and we all mostly moved on from cosmology tiering entirely. You can see most of us in threads since a few months ago debating metaphysics like we do now.
But I think the DC team should due it as they are quite a bit above the Leviathan of Stories who has a bunch of void/narrative related hax which shoudl give Bern some trouble. Although I am aware that they can revive from nothingness, but a hierarchy of nothingness where each transcendence the lower in a reality-fiction way, prehaps somewhere in that hierarchy we will run into a void that Bern can regen from. But that sounds no-limit fallcy.
The thing is that all Witches carry a piece of the Creator. While the Umineko ladder works in a reality>fiction manner, it also works as a platonic ladder that gets you closer to the omnipotent Creator with each step, freeing you of more restrictions with each step:
In the case of Aurora, she is the only one who has gotten close to the Creator without losing herself:
While Bernkastel is obviously not at this level, she is still at the top of the ladder in the Witches Domain that leads to the Creator.
It should also be noted that further evidence of the Witches Domain's ladder and its entities being platonic/boundless is that their hax like Truths completely ignore the reality>fiction differences between the combatants, like how Willard H. Wright (before he reached the City of Books) should literally be infinite amounts of infinite-D reality>fiction dimensions below Bernkastel at that point in time, yet he casually wiped out vast portions of her army (that was also on her dimensional level) with simple swings of his blade and hit her with a Truth so fast she had a look of surprise and barely blocked/countered it with her own, hurting her hand in the process:
As you can see, this fight is dragged out for a long time. While Bernkastel and her army do start to defeat him, it takes a long time and she has to work for it, along with the fight being a 10,000,000,000,000,000v1, as that's how many cats she had with her:
And even with this insane advantage, a large portion of her army got wiped out, she herself had to clash against Willard, got pushed back for a moment and hurt her hand in the process of countering one of his Truths, continued the fight even further for an unknown period of time off-screen, and failed to kill him in time before he was rescued. And the whole time Willard was having to protect his fodder friend from getting one shotted. And again, the amount of reality>fiction levels between Bernkastel and her army Vs. Willard is insane at this point in time. This shows that Umineko hax/concepts are truly boundless, as they ignore cosmology difference entirely. A normal entity that is one reality>fiction layer above their enemy would just think them out of existence in other verses, yet this was a full blown proper fight where the higher-D being was getting genuinely pissed (though still confident).
As for the fight... Bernkastel can dictate what is true/make whatever she wants truth. Can Perpetua and her sons survive Bernkastel thinking "Perpetua and her sons are dead and cannot be revived"? She actually used this exact Truth to kill Battler and stop him from reviving from nothingness:
The only reason this failed is because Endless Nine rejected this Truth as false. Otherwise, it would've worked without any issues.
So my question is... can Perpetua and her sons deal with this? I'm not arguing against them or anything, but I'm curious.
Personally, I think Perpetua stands somewhere in the Outerversal tier (sorry for bringing this up, there was no better way for me to phrase it, but it isn't the VsBattles definition). Bern isn't anywhere in that tier, not even low Outerversal so she gets stomped by Prepetua who can draw from the Presence's unconscious (the Source).
I don't really know what your own idea of Outerverse means, so this is extremely vague.
@lmaolmaolmao: Mainly due to the overall devoid and lifeless feel of cosmology tiering and it feels as if we are debating everything other than the characters themselves.
This is actually a very great point I've always felt as well. Cosmology tiering felt like a bland lifeless verse comparison, rather than 2 characters being compared. The comparison of metaphysical deepness and hax sets is far more interesting, fun, and most importantly... more accurate than cosmology tiering.
bernkastel is indiviually more powerful than those especially with her controling fate. However yes she is more powerful but not by much the team working together will exhaust her.
@sleepygypsy: Yep, that was the scan they apparently "debunked". Just search up 1A Darkseid or something. I can get you links if you cant find the thread :)
@sleepygypsy: Yep, that was the scan they apparently "debunked". Just search up 1A Darkseid or something. I can get you links if you cant find the thread :)
@zgtfreak: My version of Outerversalism is based on the one creating by the debating club I'm part of. Its less "outer-versal" and much more "closer-to-omnipotent-equals-better" versal.
Low Outerversal is what we use to gauge being who can indirectly draw from an Omnipotent source. Guys like the Transcendence from the Xeelee sequence or Arcuied (although I'm only going off what I've heard) who draws from Gaia who in turn draws from Akasha.
Outerversal is meant for beings who can directly draw on an Omnipotent source either due to them wielding/emboiding Platonic Concepts or can simply use it as a source. Dudes like EoS Battler and Prepetua stand here.
High Outerversal is basically for beings who are already an aspect of the boundless or have direct support/ backing from it. Pralaya, Lucifer, Michael all stand here.
Sorry for not being clear...I was in a rush. As for whether they can handle Bern's truth hax, if we purely use Synnder's cosmology, hell no, they die. But if we composite and say Presence = Source (or maybe this is an aspect) then they should be able to because they would be DC's version of Xianxia God tiers who can draw upon a boundless source. I have some scan but they aren't so direct and, with most Composite DC things, need some piecing together. Do you need them?
@sleepygypsy: Ah, alright. Yeah I was also under that impression that VsBattles had a hate boner for DC. Btw, being the monitor expert and all, could you explain to me what a Hyperstory is? I searched it on the internet but I didn't find anything remotely relevant.
Section 5 and 6 specifically will answer that, its quite long so its better to just link you here. Also, here is a video of Morrison explaining in detail
@sleepygypsy: Ah, alright. Yeah I was also under that impression that VsBattles had a hate boner for DC. Btw, being the monitor expert and all, could you explain to me what a Hyperstory is? I searched it on the internet but I didn't find anything remotely relevant.
Morrison hypertime is meta, it is every canon and non canon thing DC has ever done. It doesn't matter if its non-canon or has a problem with story compared to another comic book written by someone else. That is what Hypertime is. Its the entire spectrum of all DC anything.
Convergence was said to be the merging of every single story DC ever made into one timeline and Convergence was the ? on Morrison's cosmic map. Hypertime is contained by Nil Monitors. Both DC itself and the authors and editors agreed.
and yes, Hyperstory is the idea that authors use to shorten stories. Hypertime is all DC stories that were ever made, canon and non canon. This guy is literally Hyperstory
@youraverageguy: Well about your idea of omnipotence closeness... I understand it but disagree. To say drawing from an omni source>drawing from someone that draws from the source means that you are assuming that the source weakens the more it passes through people. And while that could be possible if it was specifically stated, to assume that it does work like this if it isn't specifically stated seems unlikely, as the potency of one's power diluting with the more people it goes through sounds like finite energy, rather than omni power. Hell, the main reason I put Lucifer above WTC is not because of him being closer to his omnipotent source, but because he can manipulate and change the very meaning and nature of the platonic concepts WTC characters use. Like Battler uses a Truth that says Lucifer dies? Well Lucifer can dictate and change the very meaning of what the concept of Truth even means.
As for Battler being the only platonic concept user in WTC... I took that back after I looked more into it and after Ovy sent me some scans. All Witches Domain entities are on a ladder that leads towards the Creator, with each closer step freeing you of more restrictions. They can eventually reach the Creator, but will vanish. But while they can't retain themselves when they reach him, they are still clearly connected to him and are on a ladder that brings you closer to him. They just can't get Lucifer and Michael level close to him. So if we use your idea of Outerverse, Bern and all Witches Domain entities should be Outerverse level. A very solid and haxy Outerverse level too. (Battler only stomps everyone because his hax are even better.) So everyone here is on the same general tier. So now it comes down to hax.
Btw, I wouldn't call your closeness to omnipotence tiering Outerversal, as everyone will just think you are using VS Battle's system, even if you really aren't.
Also, sorry for the late reply. I'm less active these days.
@zgtfreak: Hmm, I think the DC team should be able to take it. Bernkastel may have her platonic truth has, but Prepetua is literally responsible for creating the fundamental concepts that comprise the DC multiverse and has authority/can draw from the boundless source/the Presence so yeah, she is omni-backed in a sense.
@nahidarespecter: true, expecially featherine and the omnipotent almighty creator, actually if marvel and DC writers thinks before they write it will be much better than what they are at now, so many inconsistency and dont even know who is stronger lol, like seriously one below all wtf
@MoFan_Magic_God I just look at outerversal as transcending all dimension theory/boundless, not this lower/higher outerversal bs. You can't scale diffrent verses like that without being bais.
Why is perpetua considered outversal when the highest plane of existence in her continuity (scott snyder's cosmologly) is literally called the 6th dimension.
scott snyder's cosmologly is diffrent than grant morrison's cosmology.
@coldskin1: You know my buddy, the way dimensions operate can be pretty distinct across various fictions. Power over dimensions does not come from dimensions, nay, it comes from Logic and Logic transcends Dimensions.
And you know what? Whether it's 6 dimensions or an endless number of dimensions, it's all the same Spacetime thing. The quantity of dimensions you're wielding doesn't really hold much weight as power, as long as you're casually holding the reins over Spacetime, dimensions don't matter too much.
Staying on point, Perpetua actually lost a good chunk of that power given to her by the Source, and believe it or not, she could be taken down by simply hurling planets her way anyway. So, it's quite plausible that she's more likely gonna lose.
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