Flash (Wally West) vs Dark Phoenix

My point with Emma vs Thor is Emma rebuilding her shattered body is a great showing off Molecule Manipulation.

Also this part clearly states she can Molecule Manipulation which is the same as Reality Warping as Molecule Man beats Cosmic Cube Beings who are Reality Warpers as well held of Beyonder.

Again the important part. This is why AvX happen. Phoenix was going to Restore the powers of the Mutants that HoM Wanda took away.

Phoenix also has showings of converting and absorbing any form of energy.

Like straight Electricity energy.

Manipulate Gravity to make a Black Hole.

Absorbs and feeds on the Radiation and Heat (Both forms of Energy) of the Sun.

Gallery

Here Phoenix Absorbs Souls!

Which means she could absorb Wally's Speed force. I see why not. She has molecule and atomic level power as well complete control of Psy and Life energies.

@cadencev2: Emma never had a 1/3 of the PF. That was her with either 1/5 of it.

@cadencev2: Molecule Man only thought his power was limited to Molecules, though, and that was another self imposed limit. He's a straight reality warper and can control energy as well as molecules, because reality warpers have no limits in what they control. Controlling molecules isn't reality warping -- it's something power cosmic users can do as well. Not to mention it specifically says she has telekinetic control over molecules which, I mean, that's not even the same thing. Telekinesis =/= reality warping. Reality Warping is literally being able to turn nothingness into whatever you want with no need to expend energy to do it, not manipulate what's already existent.

That's not to say Phoenix isn't more powerful than some reality warpers. There's guys like Proteus in the Exiles who any incarnation of The Phoenix would probably stomp. It's not a knock against her, I just don't think her powers are classified that way. I mean it's just semantics, really. She's a stupid powerful cosmic force.

Wait, wanst that battle after Namor was brought down? Then Colossus and Magic were taken out? Which is actually 1/2.

I read the whole thing on Youtube lol however I might have read it out of order.

1) He didn't take down the Anti Monitor in Crisis on Infinite Earths he tore apart his armor. He was instrumental in his defeat.

2) She doesn't have to move to use telepathy unless Wally speedsteals her brain. Which he can. That's the bigger problem she'd have.

3) She can't manipulate the speed force any more than she could the power cosmic.

4) Phasing her heart/brain out is an idea at that, then the matter of her "thinking" would be irrelevant.

5) Because there's no feats to prove them:

1) She "allowed" herself to be killed; another way of saying that the omnipotent "Fire of Creation" was killed because its vessel, the telepathic Jean Grey, overpowered it and "allowed" her own death/defeat...

2) I don't think it matters really. Either Wally can steal the Kinetic Energy from the material manifestations of the Dark Phoenix in which case he wins; Or he can not in which case he loses the battle eventually. The problem is:

1. According to Phoenix supporters - "Wally has never stolen the speed of someone like the Dark Phoenix. She is a cosmic manifestation of the 'fires of creation' thereby outside the laws of DC's 'physics'. She eats stars and could warp reality if she wanted. She went toe to toe with Galactus and he couldn't put her down. The Phoenix Force itself > Speed Force!"
2. According to Flash supporters - "Just because he hasn't done something doesn't mean he can't. He's stolen speed from sub-atomic particles, i.e. he has the ability to do so to even the smallest part of matter. There's no reason it shouldn't work and no evidence to support the claim."

3) No way to prove she's immune to having absolute control over her Kinetic Energy.

These Flash threads are getting out of hand. Flash fans believe he can defeat God because he's "faster" and Flash trolls are arguing semantics over feats they know aren't possible to have. It's becoming "Prove that she's immune to speed steal, rendering Wally the winner!" vs "Prove he can speed steal a pissed of Jean that can eat stars and is the embodiment of creation!" Neither side is getting anywhere because of the Dark Phoenix's ambiguous feats and Wally West's overpowered tenure cut short by Johns.

Either train of thought is perfect because neither can be proved or disproved. This is just going to keep going and going and going until finally it's locked and Flash threads are banned. People are going to get warnings for their disrespect and what's meant to be a fun forum has become about trash talk and insults.

No not green, Green is much more powerful, Emma only had 1/5th of the phoenix force in that scan.

@cadencev2: The fights were just tie in fights that didn't really have much relevance to the overall story. That issue came out on July 11 which was before the issue of July 18th where she ended up acquiring 1/4. Sooooo, yeah, 1/5.

Does she pass the following tests:

1. Can she live without a brain?
   1. if no, is she immune to phasing
2. Can she take Physical abuse to a hyper degree?
3. CAn she do things while being unable to move?

If the is yes to those, then the outcome is that she beats Wally, otherwise, no.

@cadencev2

Just to mention molecular manipulation=/= reality warping

regardless Dark Phoenix stomps.

Wally wins cuz he c a n run run really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really fast

#sarcasm

Awesome, good to know for the future.

True. I was just pointing out it definitely is the power of Beyonder, as Molecule Man shows, and it does compete or override Reality Warpers.

It seems Molecule Manipulation is the ultimate power in the end.

eh, not necessarily, reality manipulation actually bends the laws of reality

for example you can make 2+2=3

it can defy logic

moreover you can simulate molecular manipulation with reality manipulation

high end molecular manipulation like MM's or Phoenixe's can more or less seem like reality warping however there are differences.

That makes sense, however Beyonders powers were definitely more than Molecule Manipulation with what he was pulling.

@whitelantern_1:

She can't manipulate the speed force any more than she could the power cosmic

Why?

Yeah of course, what I was referring to was that she, along with the rest of the Phoenix 5, was more in a state kind of like the "Green Phoenix", keeping her morals (barely) and holding back, but you're right, the Green Phoenix was the whole Force, they had just a part of it so they were in a lesser state.

Wally can win if he does true infinite mass punch. Takes out universe the fight takes place in, and DP with it.

Well if DP is going to "manipulate" an Kinetic energy I haven't seen any scans remotely suggesting she/it could. I know she's fought Asgardian power and Power Cosmic but never her draining or utilizing that power. In any event that's somewhat irrelevant here due to the fact that the Dark Phoenix would have feats of reacting, thinking, then manipulating said forces of extradimensional power faster than someone who could squeeze more than twice the age of the Universe in 1 second. If the argument is that she can do something like that on panel without ever having to have a feat of said nature, then one couldn't suggest that Wally can't steal her speed before she would have that opportunity. It's applying fair battle logic of the "if's" I'm afraid. But If I am wrong about her on panel feats I apologize. They haven't been presented here thus far though to be fair, but that does not mean they cease to exist.

If someone could fill me in on her feats of reaction speed, defensive capability and energy manipulation of the nonphysical nature? I must admit that I am ignorant of her more specific feats in respect to that. I know in Endsong and Resurrection the Force basically healed the host immediately, and even resurrected dead avatars. So I'm not sure if temporary incapacitation/KO constitutes a win or not. I don't know that much about the Dark Phoenix in relation to the White Phoenix (only it's significantly more powerful than the Dark) or Green Phoenix etc. I see that the feats are being drawn from separate versions of the Phoenix so I assume they must be pretty much the same. I know the basics but not her feats of siphoning power from beings other than the scans up top of her manipulating electricity and gravitons, neither of which would be relevant to Kinetic Energy due to the fact it's a potential energy not an actual energy. That's not saying I think Wally would win against a pissed off version of the fires of creation, just that I don't believe she could manipulate the speed force which could be essentially as relevant to DC as the Phoenix Force is to Marvel.

Huh? Potential energy IS actual energy. It's just not in motion. Potential energy is energy in an object not in motion.

@whitelantern_1:

She couldn't manipulate the speed force

But I am 99% sure max power DP is an energy being or someone immune to physical harm

I meant to say it's like a potential energy, not potential energy. My bad. I read an article earlier tonight on how Kinetic and Potential energies are imaginary forces lol

Can someone correct me on this. But is Dark Phoenix an avatar of the phoenix force or part of the phoenix force itself?

If it is. Wally may kill the avatar but not the Force itself. So Dark Phoenix wins.

@whitelantern_1:

Well if DP is going to "manipulate" an Kinetic energy I haven't seen any scans remotely suggesting she/it could. I know she's fought Asgardian power and Power Cosmic but never her draining or utilizing that power. In any event that's somewhat irrelevant here due to the fact that the Dark Phoenix would have feats of reacting, thinking, then manipulating said forces of extradimensional power faster than someone who could squeeze more than twice the age of the Universe in 1 second. If the argument is that she can do something like that on panel without ever having to have a feat of said nature, then one couldn't suggest that Wally can't steal her speed before she would have that opportunity. It's applying fair battle logic of the "if's" I'm afraid. But If I am wrong about her on panel feats I apologize. They haven't been presented here thus far though to be fair, but that does not mean they cease to exist.

First, the idea that DP should be able to manipulate kinetic energy (or speed force energy) is a reasonable extrapolation of her/its power. DP is a cosmic entity (the phoenix force is essentially the nexus of all psionic energy--past, present and future--of the Marvel omniverse) and a high-tier energy manipulator. DP has manipulated radiation, thermal energy, cosmic energy, psionic energy, life-energy, souls, etc. There's nothing particularly unique about kinetic energy, therefore, I see no reason why DP couldn't manipulate it. Moreover, I've never seen a scan of Beyonder manipulating kinetic energy, but I have no doubt that he can.

Second, you seem to be using the speed force and kinetic energy interchangeably, so your argument is somewhat difficult to follow. Kinetic energy =/= speed force energy, therefore, all your arguments about why DP potentially can't manipulate kinetic energy would have nothing to do with whether or not she/it could manipulate speed force energy. It seems like you're saying that even if DP could manipulate speed force energy that she/it couldn't do it better than Wally, but that's not an argument for why DP couldn't manipulate speed force energy.

Third, your arguments about "ifs" doesn't make sense. The reason why I can argue that DP can manipulate kinetic energy (or speed force energy) is because it seems like a reasonable extrapolation of the powers of a cosmic entity who is a high-tier energy manipulator. The idea that Flash can speed steal a cosmic entity is not a reasonable extrapolation of his powers, because it turns into a no limits fallacy. In any battle you could say, "Well if you want to say X can manipulate kinetic energy (or speed force energy), then you must accept that Wally can speed steal X"; and this would hold no matter how powerful X is. In other words, you could use this argument against Celestials, Adult Franklin, Galactus, Beyonder, etc. But I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that Wally could speed steal any of the aforementioned characters.

Fourth, in comics energy is energy. It doesn't matter if it's imaginary, potential, actual or whatever. You can't try and apply real world physics to comic book notions of energy.

Firstly, One could easily assume the same about Wally could he not? Wally's manipulated energy from planets, people, subatomic particles, computers, neurons etc. The Phoenix manipulates molecules. You still didn't post a single scan of her affecting the Power Cosmic, Crimson Cosmos or Odinpower. The PR Beyonder, if that's the one you're referring to, is in a completely separate class than the Dark Phoenix. You've provided no proof to your points.

Secondly, the Speed force itself and the Kinetic energy manipulations are 2 separate things. Managing, Wally thanks to Walter/Savitar can steal/lend KE. Barry can not. The speed force allows it but if the Phoenix could somehow manipulate KE, which is stretching it quite a bit, then that would have nothing to do with manipulating the speed force.

Thirdly, I disagree. Wally's more easily more in tuned with the concept of Kinetic energy being that it's a fancy word for motion. Wally's mastery over the speed force is something that took him a bit of time. The insinuation that a character specifically created with the Speed force as his powersource would somehow be less adept at controlling or managing the power than the Dark Phoenix, who again has no feats of manipulating Speed whatsoever, is a bit ignorant. The point is Wally's ability to steal speed from "X" is has never had anything to do with how powerful "X" is. This is where Phoenix supporters are making the assumption that the Dark Phoenix is beyond Wally's control over Kinetic Energy. For example, The might cosmic Phoenix wasn't exempt from a reality alteration. A character in Legion (iirc) had no issue reality warping the Phoenix, meaning that despite her obvious power, she was still susceptible to a character who's not a cosmic entity. Now remove reality warping, place in speed stealing on a character who is as potent at it as Legion was at manipulating reality and it makes sense. No one would say Legion is more powerful than the Phoenix Force. Yet he did what he did. Same basic principles here.

Finally, I agree. Except to agree with your previous points I would have to believe that Wally wouldn't be able to speed steal her because without any conclusive evidence, the Dark Phoenix specifically is exempt from having someone affect her Kinetic Energy. Also that the Dark Phoenix, according to you, could manipulate the speed force when it has never shown similar capabilities. You're suggesting the speed force is just electricity. Energy is energy and she can manipulate all energies. Except she can't. She couldn't manipulate Asgardian Power, Power Cosmic, anything the Beyonder could do.

I understand what you're saying and that your logic makes sense. But to agree with it I'd have to make too many assumptions with no on panel proof and no reason to discount a characters on feats not sufficing. If Wally West was bloodlusted, just pissed off as can be at lets say... COIE Anti Monitor. Who might have killed Linda or something right? If hypothetically Wally West stole his speed. Then tore his armor apart thereby winning the fight, would you believe Wally could do the same to the Dark Phoenix?

HA! {Joe Swanson voice}

@uberhikari:

C'mon man you're better than this... Dark Phoenix CURB-STOMPS

@whitelantern_1: Do you know what a no limits fallacy is?

Also, have you ever actually read the Chain Lightning storyline?

lolol that was funny.

On topic: Siding with dp.

Then again ww is nigh invincible..

LMAO

Anyone saying Wally is delusional.

Dark Phoenix godcurbstomps

D.P

What is Dark Pheonx best showing that she has shown on a CONSISTENT bases; I don't really read up on her.

Destroying Universe, stalemating Galactus, curbstomping his heralds, surviving supernova, there is too many.

Destroying Universe, stalemating Galactus, curbstomping his heralds, surviving supernova, there is too many.

Oh yes, I remember now. But wasn't the Galactus beat against a hungry one? He wasn't fully fed, but still let alone impressive.

Read the scans I posted. Galactus admit whether fed or at his best would not be able to win. Phoenix has ALL thepower of the Past, Present, and Future of the Universe Life force. Galactus can NEVER beat Phoenix as he is always limited in power.

So who cares?

@cadencev2:

I thought Galactus at 100% was, like...unlimited?

I think Wally's strongest in Kingdom Come... quote: "a man too fast to be contained by one plain of existance".

That was definitely one of the 3 I listed...believe he was omnipresent then? Faster than teleportation?

But then again radio tuning was like lightspeed^5

And Human Race was crossing the universe in an instant

Dunno about omnipresent, but definently close enough. Another quote: "He is everywhere at once... A guardian angel who rights even the most harmless of wrongs with lightning speed. He lives between the ticks of a second. He is the Flash."

And in the index at the end of the book he is described: "The Flash-emanating from the Speed Force, the future Flash may hold all the spirits of the previous incarnations."

And one other thing... of all the "old" heroes, Wally is the only one (except for Diana) who doesn't look like he aged even a bit. Then again, it's hard to say when he's all red and vibrating and stuff...

Another wanking thread for the Flash. DP stomps

No he hasn't. AM had already been weakened and beat down once before at that point. He was much weaker than he had been at his peak. And Wally only broke his armor, Monty still got up after that.

2) How will she take down Flash if she can't move, You really think she'll do that?

Her powers don't require her to move.

4) If he gets close enough phase his hand through her heart end of story.

Wolverine stabbed her through the heart a bunch of times in Phoenix Endsong, and was kind of going berserker on her in general. She just kept getting back up. Wasn't even serious about the whole matter. Damaging her body doesn't seem to have much of an effect on her if she doesn't want it to.

1) The Dark Phoenix Jean is completely immune to physical harm on panel. Taking on Galactus she still wasn't immune to it.

Things like this is why people have a tendency to just roll their eyes at fanboys. It is a ridiculous requirement, and irrelevant, since Wally isn't infinitely powerful. Phoenix can tank hits from Galactus and dance in the core of a star as it collapses, surviving ground zero of a supernova. Wally doesn't measure up.

2) The Dark Phoenix Jean is faster and quicker than Wally West. This matters because how will she stop him from punching her hundreds of time.

She's probably not, but then, no one in DC is either, yet Wally is not unbeatable in his own universe and generally isn't the one to deal with the major threats that pop up like Mageddon or Imperiex or the Anti Monitor, or even lesser threats like Doomsday or Darkseid.

3) The Dark Phoenix Jean is immune to the speedsteal.

Speedsteal is overrated. This gets thrown out like it's an automatic "I Win" button, but when has he actually used it on a credible threat in such a manner? I think it is worth noting that even in the scan where he says he can speedsteal Superman, he also comments that this would result in Superman creating a wave of destruction from there to Moscow. So it's not as simple as just turning someone off. Plus, Phoenix doesn't need to move to use her powers, and I don't see why she couldn't use her own powers to just start moving again anyway. So Wally can drain kinetic energy. So what? Phoenix creates kinetic energy anytime she makes something move, and she can move an awful lot, and telekinetically affect objects down to a subatomic level. Why would I believe Wally's ability to slow things exceeds her level of TK?

So what if he can speedsteal a planet? Dark Phonix took the power of a star. And what do people mean by him speed stealing a planet anyway? Was it just the people on the surface? Did he actually halt its rotation, or its orbit in space? It's a very vague statement coming from people who, frankly, aren't very good at representing his abilities. I will need an issue number to check the actual feat before I take it at face value.

Measuring his power in percentages is a fan-made thing that doesn't exist in comics. Galactus has a potentially unlimited capacity for absorbing energy, so Galactus at "100%" is actually pretty meaningless. It's kind of like Superman with sundipping.

@heymanjack said:

Dark Phoenix was the Phoenix Force itself. When Jean was dying from radiation sickness, the Phoenix Force, for whatever reason, decided to save her by putting her in a healing cocoon in the ocean. It then created a duplicate body of her so that it could pretend to be her on earth and experience human life and her friends wouldn't think she was dead. Unfortunately, the Phoenix did too good a job and forgot she was really a grand cosmic universal force.

Dark Phoenix is basically the Phoenix Force with schizophrenia.

Dark Phoenix ftw

Flash is just way out of his weight class here by himself

Now I agree that Flash is beaten by her.