Flash and Arrow vs Avengers

@seido: the wind funnel won't do anything to someone who controls the weather. I have addressed the prep things many times. Cisco isn't involved in this fight.

I do agree that mos is the wildcard in round two but the better striking and durability feats are on thors side

Not true. He was only pierced by Loki and his daggers. In Agents of SHIELD it's shown that a regular Asgardian couldn't be stabbed by an earthly knife as it bent in his hands when Ward tried to stab him. Thor was also shot (piercing damage) by Ultron in the Quintet and all it did was knock him down. No bullet holes or anything. MCU Thor's vulnerability to piercing damage is a myth.

And how are lightning attacks unless? And what stops Wanda's TP? How exactly is Grodd going to locate Ant-Man?

Team Arrow

uggieboogie: Point is Avengers work as a unit, so that's a moot point this is a team battle so let's forget the "who needs help etc" either way.

What's Wanda's TP feats besides screwing with Hulk the most who has the weakest control mentally of all of them and a human resisting it? Grodd has only been in literally a few shows considering that much he has pretty decent feats aside from physical strength he's showed.

Flash has feats too, he only works with a team for the show's sake he's more than capable of working alone. But even in the comics he's around people who help time to time, so does the Avengers besides those solo feats aren't against people like the DC team here.

Iron Man is still the smarts and directive of the team in the movies I'm talking not so much comics.

Again, you're using early on shows of Barry with his power. Early on Thor and Hulk were just as useless if not more and do I really need to mention Iron Man's first suit? Or did he improve it over time? Flash same thing, you compare show 3 to finale he's leaps and bounds stronger, faster and more powerful. Again, the Avengers would also have it difficult if they all went solo vs. DC guys like this...lol if you're using early shows of Flash then yes I'll use Thor 1 movie showings...point is EVERYONE is weaker at first.

Do you not remember the part after when Tony conquered it and KOed Hulk when Hulk and others were effected far worse than Tony was. Pretty sure Grodd's TP also worked miles away considering he was hiding out in the city sewers under the radar with tons of buildings, blocks etc in the way yet Eiling was still controlled at S.T.A.R. labs...which wasn't exactly close to where Grodd was hiding out.

Flash, MOS also have insane durability...Flash survived tons of brutal and fatal attacks with healing and Superman speaks for himself. Thor was struggling vs. Loki...Loki got oneshot by Hulk and was still out hours later just getting up as Avengers saved the day.

Proof Thor can be durable enough to survive vibrational attacks?

I wouldn't say "leagues above, Thor struggled vs Loki who got oneshot by Hulk, Flash or Thawne would own Loki. You think his slow staff blasts would tag speedsters? lol not happening.

When QS goes back in time, vibrates through things, sends people via wind funnels back in pure mist form or sends people who can fly multiple blocks back like Thawne we'll talk, til then DC speedsters in TV and film like comic are levels beyond QS is. If QS was so fast, why he'd die getting tagged by a bullet? Flash got shot in the back of the head and still reacted enough to catch it without looking no less...He saved people in the bank as bullets have gone off. Even if QS can "see" flash or thawne, he's not catching them.

Flash has oneshot a bunch of people as well during the firestorm episode in the alley, oneshotting 7 guys with guns and Thawne not only oneshotted multiple guards but killed them in no time and you couldn't even see him. There really is no reason to compare QS to the Speedsters Flash or Thawne. As for the psycholotical gig, that's just a fancier way of saying "Flash has to mentally put himself in that situation" if he feels the threat is massive enough he can do it. He ran into the sky into a black hole for God's sake...that was literally sucking everything up, we know he succeeds because there's obviously a season two...

Like I said though Flash, Thawne etc can just use their powers in other ways....til I see proof of Thor or any of the Avengers surviving this no reason why the speedsters can't just do this to everyone while the rest of the team keep everyone else busy.

You asked when has any speedster done the vibrational intangible death punch? Not only vibrating through the wall but through Mason too...

@seido:

What's Wanda's TP feats besides screwing with Hulk the most who has the weakest control mentally of all of them and a human resisting it?

She TP'd an entire city, as well as all the Avengers. And no human has resisted her TP.

Grodd has only been in literally a few shows considering that much he has pretty decent feats aside from physical strength he's showed.

Grodd has been in one episode.

Flash has feats too, he only works with a team for the show's sake he's more than capable of working alone.

Barry has struggled immensely when by himself. He wouldn't be nearly as capable on his own.

But even in the comics he's around people who help time to time

But he doesn't need people to tell him how to use his powers, or how to fight.

Iron Man is still the smarts and directive of the team in the movies I'm talking not so much comics.

Smarts, yes. But Steve is the one who leads the team.

Early on Thor and Hulk were just as useless if not more

This makes literally no sense, and shows your ignorance. Thor was beating an entire army of Frost Giants, and beat the Destroyer in his first movie. Hulk was taking on the US Army, and beat a physically stronger opponent. All on their own, without help.

and do I really need to mention Iron Man's first suit?

Is this a joke? Tony built his suit out of a box of freaking scraps, while dying. And he used it to escape a bunch of heavily armed terrorists, as well as a big ass explosion.

Flash same thing, you compare show 3 to finale he's leaps and bounds stronger, faster and more powerful

While true, he still doesn't know how to fight.

Again, the Avengers would also have it difficult if they all went solo

Good thing the Avengers fight as a team.

lol if you're using early shows of Flash then yes I'll use Thor 1 movie showings...point is EVERYONE is weaker at first.

Except Thor has some of his most powerful showings in the first movie. So... that backfires on you.

Do you not remember the part after when Tony conquered it

When was this?

Pretty sure Grodd's TP also worked miles away considering he was hiding out in the city sewers under the radar with tons of buildings, blocks etc in the way yet Eiling was still controlled at S.T.A.R. labs...which wasn't exactly close to where Grodd was hiding out.

Wanda TP'd an entire city at once. Not to mention Grodd had three months with Eiling.

Flash, MOS also have insane durability...Flash survived tons of brutal and fatal attacks with healing and Superman speaks for himself.

And? You can have all the durability in the world, but it won't stop you from getting TP'd.

Thor was struggling vs. Loki

Thor didn't want to fight Loki in either of their fights. As soon as he wanted to, he ended their fight in Avengers.

Loki got oneshot by Hulk and was still out hours later just getting up as Avengers saved the day.

No he didn't. He was still conscious after Hulk beat him. And who says it was hours later? The entire fight itself was maybe a couple hours, and that happened near the end of the fight.

Proof Thor can be durable enough to survive vibrational attacks?

Thawne has only ever used his death hand on targets who couldn't do anything, not to mention he has never used it while running at super speed.. He has no way of doing anything to Thor, so Thor isn't going to sit there and let him use it.

Flash or Thawne would own Loki.

Based on what?

When QS goes back in time, vibrates through things, sends people via wind funnels back in pure mist form or sends people who can fly multiple blocks back like Thawne we'll talk

When Thawne and Barry can punch hard enough to shatter metal robots, we'll talk.

If QS was so fast, why he'd die getting tagged by a bullet?

He was saving Clint and a child. He got there before the bullets did, which is impressive considering they were close to hitting their targets.

As for the psycholotical gig, that's just a fancier way of saying "Flash has to mentally put himself in that situation" if he feels the threat is massive enough he can do it.

No, he can't. The only reason he did it the first time was because of his kiss with Iris. He won't be able to replicate his time travel feat just because there's a threat. Your reasoning is unsubstantiated.

He ran into the sky into a black hole for God's sake...that was literally sucking everything up, we know he succeeds because there's obviously a season two...

And?

til I see proof of Thor or any of the Avengers surviving this no reason why the speedsters can't just do this to everyone while the rest of the team keep everyone else busy.

Thor does it better.

stormdriven:Nah, Thor got beat by weak Loki...even CA was able to block a direct attack from him. Flash, MOS or Thawne would oneshot Loki....and most of the Avengers for that matter. Also no proof of Thor resisting nor immune to vibrational punch. Not sure what a giant robot destroyer is supposed to prove? He's strong? Yes, but then so is Superman. Oh and based on common sense. Like I said, there is no proof of Thor surviving a vibrational punch, it doesn't matter if it's a scared human or someone like Thor, Thawne is WAY faster then both, he was taking on 3 people at once...Thor has trouble against Loki alone meanwhile....

Yes, He did Hulk oneshot Loki. Watch the movie again, Loki was JUST getting up as the Avengers finished, if he was conscious as you say why did he stay there and just act like he woke up?

And? When has Thor or any avenger gone into a black hole to save a world? Proof?

Yes he can, it's all MENTAL with Barry it's how his powers work, he is more than capable...you clearly don't know how Flash works or speedsters.

Not an excuse he's a speedster, Flash has saved people while dodging attacks before...point is a bullet killed him, Flash has been shot, still alive.

Changing time and going back in time casually>>>>>>>>>punching a dumb canon fodder robot.

Flash and Thawne>>>>>>>>>>>>>>QS. He's pathetic compared to them.

So, MMH has tped the entire world instantly? What does TP innocent humans have to do with this match exactly? I was comparing Grodd to her, and this is film versions besides. Grodd appeared in 2 shows, one with Eiling getting taken away and one where he fights Flash...

Wanda won't get the chance, second she tries getting into speedsters head she'd be oneshot by Thawne or Barry or MOS...

Grodd had 3 months because he ENJOYED it, Eiling tortured him previously...Grodd remembered that and toyed with his head for months as payback.

Don't remember the part where Tony KOed hulk? Pretty sure he says "fight it Hulk, it's the witch screwing with your head" ????pretty sure he says something like that to Hulk....

Good thing this is a team match so DC would also fight as a team...and have in some cases even Thawne and Barry.

He can fight better now, and he's not the only one fighting here and we all know Wanda, QS, BW, IM don't know how to fight. BW can against humans....she's fodder here. Besides, why should Flash fight when he has other abilities to compensate? There are Marvel people here who can't fight either yet rely on powers...your point?

So building a piece of armor against stupid terrorists with a few guns is supposed to impress me? He had tons of time to do so....and he had equipment as crappy as it may have been was still better than nothing. I'm aware but you're the one that's ignorant trying to bring up Flash can't fight and ignoring the context of episodes, not knowing how many shows Grodd was in? Yet ignore the fact that half the marvel team can't fight H2H either, oh yes frost giants etc but again struggles vs. skinny Loki lol

Again like I said IM has directed the team as well...watch the first movie, CA is the leader but NOT the brains...that would be Tony.

In the comics the Avengers are also more powerful than on film, this is no different then Flash besides there's context in that, which they covered before the show went on if you read interviews and did your homework why Flash doesn't work alone, that and it's the beginning. He'll work alone and is more than capable, even this season soon if you read about it, he's going to be very independent and push people away. He's more than capable, he just has to believe in himself. You can focus on his lower end showings but you also ignore his higher end feats, time changing, phasing, catching bullets, dodging them, saving numerous people from a crashing train, outrunning nukes, running into and fixing a black hole etc, etc

@seido:

Nah, Thor gets beat by weak Loki

What makes Loki weak? Getting beaten by Hulk? That's doesn't at all make Loki look bad. Especially when he wasn't KO'd.

.Flash, MOS or Thawne would oneshot Loki

Based on what? Neither Barry nor Thawne have any impressive striking feats that say they'll hurt Loki. And Clark has done nothing to suggest he'll one shot him. Beat him? Yes. One shot? No.

Also no proof of Thor resisting nor immune to vibrational punch.

Didn't say there was. But Thawne isn't going to use it on Thor when Thor is fighting back.

it doesn't matter if it's a scared human or someone like Thor

Sure it does. The human isn't fighting back.

he was taking on 3 people at once

And didn't use it on any of them. Weird.

Thor has trouble against Loki alone meanwhile

And you're going to once again ignore the fact that Thor was holding back in both of their fights. He didn't want to fight Loki. Regardless, I fail to see how that makes Thor look bad.

Yes, He did Hulk oneshot Loki.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

I count 5 slams there, the bullrush notwithstanding. And Loki wasn't knocked out.

And? When has Thor or any avenger gone into a black hole to save a world? Proof?

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Yes he can, it's all MENTAL with Barry it's how his powers work, he is more than capable...you clearly don't know how Flash works or speedsters.

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

He is capable of doing it, but there are requirements that have to be met.

Not an excuse he's a speedster

Then Barry shouldn't be tagged at all. There's no excuse, he's a speedster.

point is a bullet killed him, Flash has been shot, still alive.

False equivalence.

Changing time and going back in time casually>>>>>>>>>punching a dumb canon fodder robot.

Those aren't even the same types of feats. The one time Barry tried to punch something made of metal, he broke his hand, and didn't even KO his target. And no, Barry didn't time travel casually. His time travel wasn't even a point of speed, but biochemical processes, since he even ran at the same speed in the above video without time travelling.

Flash and Thawne>>>>>>>>>>>>>>QS. He's pathetic compared to them.

Even though he has better combat showings?

What does TP innocent humans have to do with this match exactly?

She's shown a greater range and versatility with her power than Grodd has.

I was comparing Grodd to her, and this is film versions besides

Yet you bring up Martian Manhunter. And everything I've mentioned is from Age of Ultron. Please have some idea of what you're arguing before you actually get into a debate.

Grodd appeared in 2 shows, one with Eiling getting taken away and one where he fights Flash...

And he had no feats when he took Eiling away, so it's of no relevance.

Wanda won't get the chance, second she tries getting into speedsters head she'd be oneshot by Thawne or Barry or MOS...

Who says any of those guys will go for her? The CW team has next to no teamwork, there is no reason the most powerful characters on the CW team would deal with the glass cannon when there are guys like Thor and Quicksilver.

Grodd had 3 months because he ENJOYED it, Eiling tortured him previously...Grodd remembered that and toyed with his head for months as payback.

You say that as if it's supposed to make some sort of difference. Grodd had total control as a result. Meanwhile, Wanda could get an entire city to pack up their bags and leave their homes all at once.

Don't remember the part where Tony KOed hulk? Pretty sure he says "fight it Hulk, it's the witch screwing with your head" ????pretty sure he says something like that to Hulk....

I'm talking about when Tony "resisted" Wanda's TP. I already know about the Hulk vs Hulkbuster fight.

Good thing this is a team match so DC would also fight as a team

Except they wouldn't fight well. Deathstroke and Thawne both want their respective heroes dead. Grodd is going to do whatever Thawne says. Oliver's relationship with Malcolm is rocky at best. Clark has no idea who any of these people are. Weather Wizard and Multiplex want Flash dead. Deathbolt hates Ray. Cold believes Barry is indebted to him. Hardly what I'd call a good team.

He can fight better now

Not enough to make a difference.

Wanda, QS, BW, IM don't know how to fight.

Just goes to show you haven't seen Avengers.

BW can against humans....she's fodder here.

The DC team has their own fodder as well.

Besides, why should Flash fight when he has other abilities to compensate?

Because he fights dumb.

There are Marvel people here who can't fight either yet rely on powers

They know how to make effective use of their powers.

So building a piece of armor against stupid terrorists with a few guns is supposed to impress me?

Up to you if you don't see that as impressive. But even Barry's best combat feats don't match up to that.

He had tons of time to do so....and he had equipment as crappy as it may have been was still better than nothing

Well, no shit. I mean, he wouldn't be Iron Man if he had nothing.

I'm aware but you're the one that's ignorant trying to bring up Flash can't fight

Except Barry doesn't know how to fight. He's shown it time and again, as recently as 3 or 4 episodes before the season finale.

and ignoring the context of episodes, not knowing how many shows Grodd was in?

Grodd had an appearance in one episode, where he didn't even have any feats. Hardly worth mentioning here.

Yet ignore the fact that half the marvel team can't fight H2H either

Except they can?

oh yes frost giants etc but again struggles vs. skinny Loki lol

Loki is a frost giant as well. Your argument is invalid. And so what if Loki is skinny? Spider-Man isn't beefy, yet he can toss around cars like toys.

Again like I said IM has directed the team as well...watch the first movie

I think you are the one that needs to watch the first movie. Steve was the one giving orders once the Avengers were assembled.

CA is the leader but NOT the brains that would be Tony

I said this in my first post.

In the comics the Avengers are also more powerful than on film

Duh

this is no different then Flash besides there's context in that, which they covered before the show went on if you read interviews and did your homework why Flash doesn't work alone, that and it's the beginning.

Originally it was to study his powers and see how it affected his health. Then it became testing his limits for Thawne's plan to return to his time. Helping people was Barry's idea.

He'll work alone and is more than capable

Thus far, he hasn't show the ability to do so well.

even this season soon if you read about it, he's going to be very independent and push people away. He's more than capable, he just has to believe in himself.

That's great.

You can focus on his lower end showings but you also ignore his higher end feats

I'm not ignoring anything. I know what Barry is capable of. But you, just like everyone else who argues for him and CW characters in general on the Battles boards, then to only look at his higher end feats.

time changing

Circumstantial.

phasing

Did it once.

catching bullets, dodging them,

One of the few things he has done consistently.

saving numerous people from a crashing train, outrunning nukes

The nuke one is a travel speed feat, and certainly a higher end one.

running into and fixing a black hole

We can't use this as a feat since we don't know how the black hole was stopped.

Dc could win round one but probably marvel.

Dc I feel def wins round 2.

@ Stormdriven:Good god you seriously have to shorten your posts...If you really believe Loki can't get beat by Flash or Thawne you really haven't seen Flash much I take it. When did Thor not struggle for Loki again? Pretty sure I'd bet anything most on here would agree Flash, Thawne or MOS would oneshot Loki...

Holding back against Loki? The guy who killed his father? Right...

Combat showings? lol you mean combat as in getting killed by a bullet which Thawne or Barry would never do? Yeah, so much "better" showings in combat....I go by feats and power, which Speedsters easily surpass QS...it's not the same kind of feats you're right my point is their feats are BETTER than QS's....all that matters. Not false equivalence, it's fact. Flash has been shot, survived. QS shot=dead. The difference. Ahh the difference is Flash was starting out, unlike QS who's "mastered" his speed, right?

Your breakdown of friendships is irrelevant, Avengers don't love each other either Thor and Hulk have fought, Iron Man and Thor have fought, CA and Iron Man aren't too fond of each other, your point? Who says they wouldn't go for her? Obviously they know she's the key or one of the more powerful Marvel people only smart to send a speedster to take her out first while Supes deals with Thor and Hulk, and the rest worry about the rest.

I do, please have some clue as to what's relevant before debating...nobody cares about Wanda TPing a city or not, a city full of civilians isn't the DC team here are they? Nope.

Wrong it would make a difference and obviously you haven't watched Flash since you don't know how many shows characters are even in...and yes I have seen avengers, so you're wrong again. E for effort though. Wanda does not fight, QS does not fight and IM does not fight H2H. Do you not know what Martial Arts means? Again what does Wanda tping people who are irrelevant here have to do with anything? Grodd can control people too who don't matter I dont see what your point is.

Like I said no proof Thor or anyone else immune to phasing punch. No it doesn't matter in Thawnes case Thor or a bum, you're just as slow to him same same....and Thor attacking him may as well be like Hulk attacking QS....if not worse.

You really don't know what you're talking about, lol you're using early footage of Flash learning how to use his powers seriously? I guess all Barry needs is a Car to beat Thor then ;) and I said Barry mentally has to feel the need to do so you posting a clip from first few shows is a failed and ridiculous argument. You better hope Barry never goes forward in time in this series cause the second that happens you can expect I told you so from me or any speedster for that matter, Thawne can clearly do it had he not been drained up all the speed force 15 years earlier.

Watch your own clip you don't even know the context of it, sad...Loki getting up? Nope. Oneshot, oh I'm sorry 4 or 5 shots to the ground in ONE move...either way it wasn't a fight nor close. Accept it.

We can use it, the season 2 takes place 6 months after Barry stopped it, does it matter how? He was the only one who can do did you not watch the finale? Who else ran into the black hole singularity?

He's done a lot of things consistent but people try to lowball Flash half the time with earlier showings still learning how to use his powers or flat out PIS due for other reasons ie Arrow crossover... I can say the same about the people arguing against him on here using only low end showings while ignoring higher end. His higher end surpasses his lower showings...I don't see how that's circumstantial when point is he can do it. I guess Thor using his hammer is circumstantial to do massive damage? Marvel team has more fodder people here...

Incorrect, he caught bullets two times. First was the back of the neck, second time was during the episode where Thawne was using shapeshifter to distract them when they thought they had trapped him. Joe shoots 3 bullets and Flash catches two of them....

Yeah that is great but if Flash instantly worked alone and knew how to use his powers off the bat that would be stupid and boring...Avengers are no different really, none of them individually have faced threats on par with Flash's girder? Mist? Thawne?Yeah...

I watched the first movie already thanks, no need. Like I said Tony is the brains, CA the leader. Dont know what you're disputing here.

lol doesn't matter Loki is a puny frost giant, and far from a "giant" in general. Flash fighting "dumb" is relative, like I said if he magically knew how to use his powers without struggle it would SUCK flat out and be dull. He fights without thinking, wouldn't say dumb just too quick in earlier episodes....

Nah, not all of them. When has Iron Man fought H2H by H2H that means martial arts outside of the suit? Proof? Good luck with that. when has Thor done so without his hammer? Hulk?

lol you're the one who's wrong, Grodd was in 2 shows guy. I don't care if he was in one for 3 seconds he's STILL in an episode, as in in the flesh, they show him walking and grabbing Eiling, you have to be blind not to see this and then the Eiling mind control episode...duh.

I had made that comment since it applies to both teams regarding comic to shows/film...

So if we're emphasizing just on H2H DC team definitely wins here then...since you're ignoring powers apparently so hung up on Flash fighting exclusively.

DC people know how to make the best of their powers too, but everyone is a noob at some point. This will be the last HUGE post I make with you, if you write another book I'll just address the important parts, DC teams takes this in the end. Accept it and move on.

DC team wins here.

@stormdriven:

Except it didn't take anything special for him to do it. There's no reason Thor wouldn't be able to overcome it, considering he has greater will power. Besides, Thor is mighty.

Will power isn't really quantifiable. We saw Barry struggle under Grodd's influence and then overcome it(partially because Iris was helping him through it). There is literally no way to say just how much will power Barry utilized to overcome Grodd's TP. And what makes you say that Thor has greater will power? I'm genuinely curious.

Why would it? She has prior knowledge, so she'd know that they've made those same helmets to counter TP before (assuming Cisco is helping).

She has prior knowledge on Team. That means she will have a basic understanding of her opponent's power. She can't possible know that one of the team member has a friend who is a genius engineer. That's way beyond basic knowledge.

Even if they didn't have that much knowledge, the silly looking gadgets they're all wearing would be suspicious to say the least.

Agreed. Wanda would be able to figure out that the gadgets everyone is wearing on their head is resisting her TP. But figuring that out and destroying all of it is surely going to take some time. Of course, all this assuming Cisco is helping.

Depending on who attacks her, she could easily TK them. If it's one of the speedsters, Pietro will be protecting her.

Like I said earlier, Wanda would be perceived as the biggest threat(I'll explain). And team has 5 days to prep and plan for the battle. Either Eobard or Barry is more than capable of taking on Pietro. That leaves out one speedster who can blitz her. And its not like Barry is absolutely required to take her down. Any other member of team can do it. Remember, Avengers are outnumbered here. And Grodd can decrease their number even further. Malcolm, Slade, Oliver, anyone of them can shoot her and be done with it. I don't remember a single good reflex feat from Wanda that suggests she can block arrows or bullets.

Anyway, it's not like the CW team has very good teamwork. Half of their team is a bunch of supervillains who absolutely hate the heroes on their team (although Malcolm and Oliver can somewhat work together now). They'd hardly be working as a cohesive unit, which works well for the Avengers, who'll take advantage of the chaos. They've also all worked together except for Scott, so that's even more in their favor.

That is a big problem DCCW team has. But they have 5 days to figure it out. Its kill or be killed. Oliver and Malcolm has worked together. So has Barry and Eobard. And Eobard basically tells Grodd what to do. That leaves out Slade, who will be most stubborn, but will come around once he realizes that Oliver will die if he didn't help him.(Nobody gets to kill you but me, kid!). And Mark, who I don't think has been that big of a villain of Barry as he has been of Joe. Sure, they suddenly won't be acting as best friends, but they won't try and kill each other either.

They might not think so. They might think the super durable, super strong, lightning wielding Asgardian is the biggest threat. Not necessarily a bad assumption.

If it were a random encounter, that's exactly what they would think. But they know better. They would realize that person who can basically make you kill all your teammates might be a bigger threat.

@rbt:

Will power isn't really quantifiable. We saw Barry struggle under Grodd's influence and then overcome it(partially because Iris was helping him through it). There is literally no way to say just how much will power Barryutilized to overcome Grodd's TP. And what makes you say that Thor has greater will power? I'm genuinely curious.

Facing complete consumption by the Norns to get information when others have been killed by them, standing alone against Malekith when he wielded the power to destroy the entire universe, having to face his brother twice in combat put him over Barry in terms of willpower.

She has prior knowledge on Team. That means she will have a basic understanding of her opponent's power. She can't possible know that one of the team member has a friend who is a genius engineer. That's way beyond basic knowledge.

OP didn't really define how much knowledge the teams were given. But you're probably right.

Like I said earlier, Wanda would be perceived as the biggest threat(I'll explain). And team has 5 days to prep and plan for the battle. Either Eobard or Barry is more than capable of taking on Pietro. That leaves out one speedster who can blitz her. And its not like Barry is absolutely required to take her down. Any other member of team can do it. Remember, Avengers are outnumbered here. And Grodd can decrease their number even further. Malcolm, Slade, Oliver, anyone of them can shoot her and be done with it. I don't remember a single good reflex feat from Wanda that suggests she can block arrows or bullets.

But how are they going to deal with Scott? The only one who's going to be able to deal with him is Grodd, and Grodd has only ever shown limited control over one person at a time, aside from the memory overload he gave Eiling and Barry. If Grodd has to remove his focus from one opponent, that leaves one dangerous opponent out. So while the Avengers are outnumbered, their team has bigger threats. Scott with his disks could beat any of the marksman on the CW team and stop them from targeting Wanda. I mean, it's not like they'll all be targeting Wanda, especially with an entire team fighting them.

That is a big problem DCCW team has. But they have 5 days to figure it out. Its kill or be killed.

True, but let's look at the last time we saw each of these teammates:

• Flash and Gorilla Grodd: Grodd gets hit by a train trying to kill Barry
• Flash and Reverse Flash: Thawne was about to kill Barry
• Flash and Weather Wizard: Weather Wizard was about to kill Barry before Snart let them go
• Flash and Captain Cold: Cold believes Barry owes him for not killing him
• Flash and Deathbolt: Deathbolt was about to kill Barry
• Flash and Multiplex: Flash beat Multiplex, then "killed" him.
• Atom and Deathbolt: Atom beat Deathbolt and took him to STAR Labs
• Captain Cold and Deathbolt: Snart killed Deathbolt
• Arrow and Deathstroke: Slade tried to kill Oliver, but failed
• Arrow and Malcolm Merlyn: They can work together, but Oliver is still wary of Malcolm

Not exactly spectacular standings here. So although they may work together, they are most definitely not going to be a team. More than likely the heroes will work together, lacking trust for the villains, while the villains will do whatever they want. They certainly won't have the teamwork to focus on one opponent. Throw in Superman who has no idea who the hell any of them are, and it's chaos.

If it were a random encounter, that's exactly what they would think. But they know better. They would realize that person who can basically make you kill all your teammates might be a bigger threat.

Like I said above, not everyone is going to see eye to eye, and certainly not going to put all their focus on one target.

The amount of wank in this thread and on this site for CW Arrow is farging retarded. Avengers stomp. Iron Man would straight up solo their entire roster...that's including rd 2 with MoS if you're giving him prep.

Widow would murder the entire CW cast.

Dc team probably first round.

DC team stomps second round

@paytience: thats not true at all

I say:

Round 1: Avengers mainly because Thor blew up a city, however, he did get pushed around a bit by Quicksilver but at most Reverse Flash and Flash would probably just annoy him (as did Quicksilver). Plus Quicksilver can probably tango with one of the two CW speedsters so that will be less of a problem for Thor. Grodd could potentially mind control Thor but I think he will be focused on Scarlet Witch.

Round 2: The CW team especially because there is no Hulk and there is Superman. Here's the important matchups:

- Thor vs. Superman: Thor has the striking feat but combat speed goes to superman and arguably their durability is around the same since Superman seems to handle simpler things like bullets that Thor habitually dodges instead of tanking. Plus the striking feat was when mjolnir was in Thor's hands so even if he throws his hammer at supes (which is around as fast as superman) it's not doing city level damage to him. I still say Superman wins assuming Thor doesn’t hit him with a city level strike, but most likely he won’t.

- Quicksilver vs. Reverse Flash: Some would argue Quicksilver hits harder because of his feats against the ultron bots. I disagree with this mostly because at the beginning of AoU when the avengers were his enemies, when he hit Hawkeye, Clint did not die from the impact. So either the twins - at the time - weren’t serious about destroying the avengers or the ultron bots were really, really weak. We know Reverse Flash can kill via: high speed impacts, can fling a human city blocks if not a couple of miles away by spinning his arm and phasing. Both of them were hit with projectiles but I would argue Reverse Flash was distracted because it was 1 vs. 3 and here it’s an even fight whereas Quicksilver dying at the end of AoU made zero sense for his character.

- Scarlet Witch vs. Flash: Grodd is busy with another fight so Flash blitzes Scarlet Witch before she can do anything and she’s done. Edit: Plus Flash has resisted TP before and that's a feat for him. Thor thought he was mighty enough but you know...

- Ironman, Falcon & War Machine vs. Grodd, Atom (his shrinking isn’t canon yet), Weather Wizard & Deathbolt: The CW characters here can potentially damage the suits, however, the real MVP of this group is Grodd. If Ironman decides to call in his Hulkbuster and Iron legion, and since Scarlet Witch is busy with Flash, Grodd can control Tony’s mind thereby making this win for the CW characters a super stomp. Even if he just controls War Machine it’s still a pretty big advantage because he and the other members can surely take care of Ironman, Ironman’s toys (should he call them) and Falcon.

- Black Widow, Hawkeye, Ant-man & Captain America vs. Malcom, Arrow, Deathstroke, Multiplex, & Captain Cold: Multiplex acts as a literal meat shield with his clones as the rest of his team takes advantage and picks off the rest. Ant-man is the only one I’m not sure about since I haven’t seen the film. Either way once Flash finishes with Scarlet Witch (which should be quick), he uses his speed to search the battle field for Ant-man and squishes him should he even need to do that.

LOL :'D

The CW team has better odds of finding out Thor's weakness to asgardian metals than the MCU does finding out about Kryptonite; mainly because it hasn't been introduced yet in canon.

@heatforce: Agreed. That post made me laugh lol Widow is one of the first to go down lol.

@heatforce: they wouldnt have access to asgaurdian metals and it wouldnt matter anyway its more about their strengths and durability.. especially since its not thors weakness its just the only metal shown to be strong enough to puncture him, and neither would have access to the metal or kryptonite

I know, I was just poking fun at Paytience comment

@heatforce: haha whoops didnt catch that

Please tell me you're joking about the combat speed? Supes and Thor are equal in travel speed but that's only due to mjolnir. When thrown, mjolnir is around as fast as Supes but Thor might as well be Captain America as far as actual combat speed (without mjolnir) is concerned. And Superman can speed blitz Thor for sure. Zod doesn’t count as Zod is actually as fast as Superman while Thor couldn’t even react Quicksilver. True Superman is slower than Quicksilver but if Hawkeye (or was it cap?) can see "the blur" and Thor couldn’t react, I doubt he is reacting to superman who is not so far separated from Quicksilver.

The KO means nothing. Thor has been knocked out before, habitually hides behind cover when bullets are fired and has been tossed around by physically weaker characters. Let me ask you this: who has actually bled before? Certainly not Superman in MoS.

@heatforce: I think his point was he hasn't shown it yet. BTW Thor could see Pietro in age of ultron.

Idk its hard to say what supes combat speed is as I would agree that it did look like he was faster. I also believe that Thor is more durable and has the better striking feats. Btw Thor bled when he wasn't Thor.

@newecho: think hes refering to getting hit by hulk in avengerd

No, he bled when Hulk punched him on the nose in the helicarrier, in the first Avengers film. It was a little blood but he bled nonetheless. Yes, Thor has the better striking feat if we're talking about his Hail Mary, city destroying blast (which he has only been shown to use while mjolnir is in his hands). Superman tanked and destroyed the world engine when it was weakening him(highest showing IMO) so if we even out the highs and the lows I'd say they are about even durability wise.

Yes

@seido:

Good god you seriously have to shorten your posts

Yet you respond to me with a lot of drivel. The only reason my post is longer than yours is because I quote you to address specific parts of your post.

If you really believe Loki can't get beat by Flash or Thawne you really haven't seen Flash much I take it.

What an idiotic argument. You nor Barry/Thawne have given me any reason to believe they'd beat Loki, much less oneshot him like you claim. How about giving me reasons as to why you think they one shot him?

When did Thor not struggle for Loki again? Pretty sure I'd bet anything most on here would agree Flash, Thawne or MOS would oneshot Loki...

I gave you reasons for why Thor struggled. And no, most people wouldn't agree. But if you don't believe me, make a thread for each of them. But I don't even see why it matters, since Loki isn't in this fight anyway.

Holding back against Loki? The guy who killed his father? Right...

Another statement that shows you don't know what you're talking about. Thor has no idea what's been happening on Asgard. We don't even know if Odin is dead or not. Thor also thinks Loki is dead.

Combat showings? lol you mean combat as in getting killed by a bullet which Thawne or Barry would never do?

I don't know why you're laughing when Thawne, supposedly the fastest here, got hit by an arrow. Twice.

I go by feats and power

Feats which have no bearing on a fight, and power that is woefully misused.

it's not the same kind of feats you're right my point is their feats are BETTER than QS's

Except time travel is useless in combat. Barry doesn't phase in combat. Barry doesn't use his whirlwind arms. Thawne doesn't use his death hand while running at super speed.

Not false equivalence, it's fact

Except it is a false equivalence. Pietro had to intercept them just as they were going to hit Clint and the kid. That means he had to move faster than they did.

Ahh the difference is Flash was starting out, unlike QS who's "mastered" his speed, right?

Actually, no. Barry was quite experienced by the time he caught the bullet, while Dr. List didn't believe the Twins were ready to face the Avengers out in the field. So no, he hadn't mastered his speed.

Your breakdown of friendships is irrelevant

It's completely relevant. Why would the CW team, which is filled with a bunch of guys that hate each other, work together well?

Avengers don't love each other either Thor and Hulk have fought, Iron Man and Thor have fought, CA and Iron Man aren't too fond of each other, your point?

They're the freaking Avengers, they fight as a team. That's the point.

Who says they wouldn't go for her?

Who says they'll work together to agree on taking her out first? Especially when they'll have other Avengers to deal with.

Obviously they know she's the key or one of the more powerful Marvel people

Except their lack of teamwork will get in the way.

I do, please have some clue as to what's relevant before debating...nobody cares about Wanda TPing a city or not, a city full of civilians isn't the DC team here are they? Nope.

Except nobody on the DC team has resistance to TP except for Barry, so the DC team is just as likely to be TP'd. And the city feat shows that Wanda can affect multiple people at once at great distances. Something Grodd can't match.

Wrong it would make a difference and obviously you haven't watched Flash since you don't know how many shows characters are even in

I don't even know what you're talking about here.

.and yes I have seen avengers, so you're wrong again.

Given the shit you've been spewing, could have fooled me. And everyone else.

Wanda does not fight, QS does not fight and IM does not fight H2H.

For Christ's sake, I'm talking about overall fighting ability. The difference between the people you just mentioned and what Barry does is Barry slows down to fight at normal speed. He doesn't fight like an actual speedster. And when he does, it's ineffectual at best.

Again what does Wanda tping people who are irrelevant here have to do with anything? Grodd can control people too who don't matter I dont see what your point is.

Wanda is better at TP than Grodd.

Like I said no proof Thor or anyone else immune to phasing punch.

Jesus, I've already admitted to this. But I'll say it again, just so you understand.

I NEVER SAID THERE WAS PROOF. I NEVER SAID THERE WAS PROOF.

No it doesn't matter in Thawnes case Thor or a bum, you're just as slow to him same same

Except he's only ever used his death hand on unmoving targets.

and Thor attacking him may as well be like Hulk attacking QS....if not worse.

If you're referring to comics, Hulk has tagged Pietro multiple times. So... that backfires on you. If you're referring to AoU, they never fought.

You really don't know what you're talking about, lol you're using early footage of Flash learning how to use his powers seriously?

Are you serious? That video was from late in Season 1, after his time travelling feat. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I guess all Barry needs is a Car to beat Thor then

So you bring up when Thor doesn't have any powers. Nice.

I said Barry mentally has to feel the need to do so you posting a clip from first few shows is a failed and ridiculous argument.

Yeah, you don't watch the show.

You better hope Barry never goes forward in time in this series cause the second that happens you can expect I told you so from me or any speedster for that matter

I never once denied that Barry can time travel. BUT IT IS CIRCUMSTANTIAL.

Watch your own clip you don't even know the context of it, sad...Loki getting up? Nope.

Do you even know what you're arguing? You said Loki was oneshotted, and was knocked out for hours. I said he wasn't one shotted, and he wasn't out for hours. You disagreed. I proved you wrong. Now you're trying to act like you're right, when you weren't right in the first place.

Oneshot, oh I'm sorry 4 or 5 shots to the ground in ONE move...either way it wasn't a fight nor close. Accept it.

Point out where I said it was a close fight. I didn't. I simply showed you how wrong you were for saying Loki was oneshot KO'd.

We can use it, the season 2 takes place 6 months after Barry stopped it, does it matter how?

Of course it matters how. The feat hasn't even happened yet. We don't know if Barry stopped the singularity under his own power, if he had help, or whether there was something circumstantial.

He was the only one who can do did you not watch the finale? Who else ran into the black hole singularity?

No shit he was the only one who could run in. But since you seem to know how it was stopped, why don't you enlighten me?

He's done a lot of things consistent but people try to lowball Flash half the time with earlier showings still learning how to use his powers or flat out PIS due for other reasons ie Arrow crossover

I know a ton of people who would disagree with you on the Arrow fight being PIS.

I can say the same about the people arguing against him on here using only low end showings while ignoring higher end.

Barry being a bad fighter is consistent.

I don't see how that's circumstantial when point is he can do it

What relevance does it have to this fight?

I guess Thor using his hammer is circumstantial to do massive damage?

That doesn't even make any sense.

Marvel team has more fodder people here

They have the same amount.

Incorrect, he caught bullets two times. First was the back of the neck, second time was during the episode where Thawne was using shapeshifter to distract them when they thought they had trapped him. Joe shoots 3 bullets and Flash catches two of them....

What are you talking about? I said that Barry catching/dodging bullets was a consistent thing.

Yeah that is great but if Flash instantly worked alone and knew how to use his powers off the bat that would be stupid and boring

Avengers are no different really, none of them individually have faced threats on par with Flash's girder? Mist? Thawne?Yeah...

This is a joke, right? Thor alone has faced someone who was going to destroy the universe. Hulk fought someone physically superior to him. Captain America went toe to toe with Ultron.

Like I said Tony is the brains, CA the leader. Dont know what you're disputing here

You said Tony was the directive. I proved you wrong. Then you changed it, and I agreed. So not sure why you brought this up again.

lol doesn't matter Loki is a puny frost giant, and far from a "giant" in general.

So what?

Flash fighting "dumb" is relative, like I said if he magically knew how to use his powers without struggle it would SUCK flat out and be dull.

Comic Flash doesn't have this problem, and he's way faster than CW Barry.

When has Iron Man fought H2H by H2H that means martial arts outside of the suit? Proof? Good luck with that.

Why the hell does that matter? Tony is fighting inside his suit.

when has Thor done so without his hammer? Hulk?

Thor did it while depowered. Hulk isn't in this fight, so it doesn't matter. But to answer your question, he fought Abomination, who is US Special Forces.

lol you're the one who's wrong, Grodd was in 2 shows guy. I don't care if he was in one for 3 seconds he's STILL in an episode, as in in the flesh, they show him walking and grabbing Eiling, you have to be blind not to see this and then the Eiling mind control episode...duh.

What relevance does this have to the fight?

I had made that comment since it applies to both teams regarding comic to shows/film...

What are you going on about?

So if we're emphasizing just on H2H DC team definitely wins here then...since you're ignoring powers apparently so hung up on Flash fighting exclusively.

Because that's how Barry fights. Jesus, how can you be so dense?

DC people know how to make the best of their powers too, but everyone is a noob at some point

That's no excuse, since Barry has become more experienced.

So round one is 7 MCU vs 8 DC and there are 2 Flashes, while round two makes it 10 to 12 and we add Superman. Why do you hate the MCU? Come on man. You're giving team DC it's most powerful heroes and villains and leaving Hulk, Loki, Malaketh, Thanos, Ronan, Ultron, Vision and Odin on the sidelines. Balance the teams out. This is a squash.

Do Thanos and Odin even have feats but technically you are right.

Well, I guess Thanos doesn't, but I'm pretty sure Odin was shown laying waste to some Frost Giants in the first movie and dark elves in the second.

Maybe that's not enough to make a case for him, but still, the OP seems biased for DC.

@stormdriven said:

@seido:

Good god you seriously have to shorten your posts

Yet you respond to me with a lot of drivel. The only reason my post is longer than yours is because I quote you to address specific parts of your post.

If you really believe Loki can't get beat by Flash or Thawne you really haven't seen Flash much I take it.

What an idiotic argument. You nor Barry/Thawne have given me any reason to believe they'd beat Loki, much less oneshot him like you claim. How about giving me reasons as to why you think they one shot him?

When did Thor not struggle for Loki again? Pretty sure I'd bet anything most on here would agree Flash, Thawne or MOS would oneshot Loki...

I gave you reasons for why Thor struggled. And no, most people wouldn't agree. But if you don't believe me, make a thread for each of them. But I don't even see why it matters, since Loki isn't in this fight anyway.

Holding back against Loki? The guy who killed his father? Right...

Another statement that shows you don't know what you're talking about. Thor has no idea what's been happening on Asgard. We don't even know if Odin is dead or not. Thor also thinks Loki is dead.

Combat showings? lol you mean combat as in getting killed by a bullet which Thawne or Barry would never do?

I don't know why you're laughing when Thawne, supposedly the fastest here, got hit by an arrow. Twice.

I go by feats and power

Feats which have no bearing on a fight, and power that is woefully misused.

it's not the same kind of feats you're right my point is their feats are BETTER than QS's

Except time travel is useless in combat. Barry doesn't phase in combat. Barry doesn't use his whirlwind arms. Thawne doesn't use his death hand while running at super speed.

Not false equivalence, it's fact

Except it is a false equivalence. Pietro had to intercept them just as they were going to hit Clint and the kid. That means he had to move faster than they did.

Ahh the difference is Flash was starting out, unlike QS who's "mastered" his speed, right?

Actually, no. Barry was quite experienced by the time he caught the bullet, while Dr. List didn't believe the Twins were ready to face the Avengers out in the field. So no, he hadn't mastered his speed.

Your breakdown of friendships is irrelevant

It's completely relevant. Why would the CW team, which is filled with a bunch of guys that hate each other, work together well?

Avengers don't love each other either Thor and Hulk have fought, Iron Man and Thor have fought, CA and Iron Man aren't too fond of each other, your point?

They're the freaking Avengers, they fight as a team. That's the point.

Who says they wouldn't go for her?

Who says they'll work together to agree on taking her out first? Especially when they'll have other Avengers to deal with.

Obviously they know she's the key or one of the more powerful Marvel people

Except their lack of teamwork will get in the way.

I do, please have some clue as to what's relevant before debating...nobody cares about Wanda TPing a city or not, a city full of civilians isn't the DC team here are they? Nope.

Except nobody on the DC team has resistance to TP except for Barry, so the DC team is just as likely to be TP'd. And the city feat shows that Wanda can affect multiple people at once at great distances. Something Grodd can't match.

Wrong it would make a difference and obviously you haven't watched Flash since you don't know how many shows characters are even in

I don't even know what you're talking about here.

.and yes I have seen avengers, so you're wrong again.

Given the shit you've been spewing, could have fooled me. And everyone else.

Wanda does not fight, QS does not fight and IM does not fight H2H.

For Christ's sake, I'm talking about overall fighting ability. The difference between the people you just mentioned and what Barry does is Barry slows down to fight at normal speed. He doesn't fight like an actual speedster. And when he does, it's ineffectual at best.

Again what does Wanda tping people who are irrelevant here have to do with anything? Grodd can control people too who don't matter I dont see what your point is.

Wanda is better at TP than Grodd.

Like I said no proof Thor or anyone else immune to phasing punch.

Jesus, I've already admitted to this. But I'll say it again, just so you understand.

I NEVER SAID THERE WAS PROOF. I NEVER SAID THERE WAS PROOF.

No it doesn't matter in Thawnes case Thor or a bum, you're just as slow to him same same

Except he's only ever used his death hand on unmoving targets.

and Thor attacking him may as well be like Hulk attacking QS....if not worse.

If you're referring to comics, Hulk has tagged Pietro multiple times. So... that backfires on you. If you're referring to AoU, they never fought.

You really don't know what you're talking about, lol you're using early footage of Flash learning how to use his powers seriously?

Are you serious? That video was from late in Season 1, after his time travelling feat. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I guess all Barry needs is a Car to beat Thor then

So you bring up when Thor doesn't have any powers. Nice.

I said Barry mentally has to feel the need to do so you posting a clip from first few shows is a failed and ridiculous argument.

Yeah, you don't watch the show.

You better hope Barry never goes forward in time in this series cause the second that happens you can expect I told you so from me or any speedster for that matter

I never once denied that Barry can time travel. BUT IT IS CIRCUMSTANTIAL.

Watch your own clip you don't even know the context of it, sad...Loki getting up? Nope.

Do you even know what you're arguing? You said Loki was oneshotted, and was knocked out for hours. I said he wasn't one shotted, and he wasn't out for hours. You disagreed. I proved you wrong. Now you're trying to act like you're right, when you weren't right in the first place.

Oneshot, oh I'm sorry 4 or 5 shots to the ground in ONE move...either way it wasn't a fight nor close. Accept it.

Point out where I said it was a close fight. I didn't. I simply showed you how wrong you were for saying Loki was oneshot KO'd.

We can use it, the season 2 takes place 6 months after Barry stopped it, does it matter how?

Of course it matters how. The feat hasn't even happened yet. We don't know if Barry stopped the singularity under his own power, if he had help, or whether there was something circumstantial.

He was the only one who can do did you not watch the finale? Who else ran into the black hole singularity?

No shit he was the only one who could run in. But since you seem to know how it was stopped, why don't you enlighten me?

He's done a lot of things consistent but people try to lowball Flash half the time with earlier showings still learning how to use his powers or flat out PIS due for other reasons ie Arrow crossover

I know a ton of people who would disagree with you on the Arrow fight being PIS.

I can say the same about the people arguing against him on here using only low end showings while ignoring higher end.

Barry being a bad fighter is consistent.

I don't see how that's circumstantial when point is he can do it

What relevance does it have to this fight?

I guess Thor using his hammer is circumstantial to do massive damage?

That doesn't even make any sense.

Marvel team has more fodder people here

They have the same amount.

Incorrect, he caught bullets two times. First was the back of the neck, second time was during the episode where Thawne was using shapeshifter to distract them when they thought they had trapped him. Joe shoots 3 bullets and Flash catches two of them....

What are you talking about? I said that Barry catching/dodging bullets was a consistent thing.

Yeah that is great but if Flash instantly worked alone and knew how to use his powers off the bat that would be stupid and boring

Avengers are no different really, none of them individually have faced threats on par with Flash's girder? Mist? Thawne?Yeah...

This is a joke, right? Thor alone has faced someone who was going to destroy the universe. Hulk fought someone physically superior to him. Captain America went toe to toe with Ultron.

Like I said Tony is the brains, CA the leader. Dont know what you're disputing here

You said Tony was the directive. I proved you wrong. Then you changed it, and I agreed. So not sure why you brought this up again.

lol doesn't matter Loki is a puny frost giant, and far from a "giant" in general.

So what?

Flash fighting "dumb" is relative, like I said if he magically knew how to use his powers without struggle it would SUCK flat out and be dull.

Comic Flash doesn't have this problem, and he's way faster than CW Barry.

When has Iron Man fought H2H by H2H that means martial arts outside of the suit? Proof? Good luck with that.

Why the hell does that matter? Tony is fighting inside his suit.

when has Thor done so without his hammer? Hulk?

Thor did it while depowered. Hulk isn't in this fight, so it doesn't matter. But to answer your question, he fought Abomination, who is US Special Forces.

lol you're the one who's wrong, Grodd was in 2 shows guy. I don't care if he was in one for 3 seconds he's STILL in an episode, as in in the flesh, they show him walking and grabbing Eiling, you have to be blind not to see this and then the Eiling mind control episode...duh.

What relevance does this have to the fight?

I had made that comment since it applies to both teams regarding comic to shows/film...

What are you going on about?

So if we're emphasizing just on H2H DC team definitely wins here then...since you're ignoring powers apparently so hung up on Flash fighting exclusively.

Because that's how Barry fights. Jesus, how can you be so dense?

DC people know how to make the best of their powers too, but everyone is a noob at some point

That's no excuse, since Barry has become more experienced.

@stormdriven, you just changed my mind. My initial reaction to this was that the CW team was too loaded considering Flash, RF and MOS. I thought it was a CW squash. But I didn't really account for the fact that CW Barry isn't on that Comicvine god-Flash level yet, and I probably wasn't giving Thor his due in light of all feats from all 4 movies. Excellent points. Great perspective.

@ Stormdriven:-No the only reason your posts are longer is because you have poor sentence structure and instead of addressing a few points per paragraph like normal people, you choose to address each point individually for some dumb reason probably to annoy other users hoping they just don't argue because you figure "if I make novel like posts nobody will want to debate with me" Ha, unfortunately for you you don't know me very well and won't let that stop me from addressing each point but since you insist on using an annoying, lengthy format I'll do the same.

Ha more like an idiotic argument from YOU if anything. Actually yes I have given you much reason to believe they'd beat loki but you're choosing to ignore it, and yes Hulk did oneshot Loki or "5 shotted him" if you want to count the slams...lol I just gave you reasons and facts regarding such.

No you gave me excuses why Thor struggled, he's been knocked out before, has run and been afraid of bullets and yes pretty sure most people would agree that Thawne, Flash and MOS are far faster than slow Thor....

Odin was dead are you blind? And what does Thor not knowing what happened in Asgard have to do with him getting beatdown by Loki who regardless if he thought he was dead or not mean against Loki and he kicking Thor's ass? He wasn't holding back, Loki was clearly dominating him....

Wrong. For one, you make it sound like Thawne was casually shot lol...you're funny. First off he was distracted by Flash and Firestorm, watch the fight again please only reason he got the shot off, when Barry and thawne were fighting did Arrow hit him or have a shot? No. Now if he had shot Thawne while both were moving insanely fast you'd have a point but he didn't so your argument holds no water. Second time really? The guy was chasing Barry on a skyscraper and got hit with a fireblast off the building falling well over 30 stories onto a car, which would have killed most people yet only stunned him giving Oliver enough time to get a tranq shot in him....as you say it was circumstantial. Sorry.

Your post is irrelevant and ignorant, "feats that have no bearing"WTF you can't cherry pick feats because you don't agree with them, and power misused? What the hell does that mean? Doesn't even make sense I guess Avengers are misusing their power here too then by that flawed logic.

Don't confuse misuse with inexperience...

Not useless when any speedster can do it whenever they want if they push themselves mentally and run fast enough....Barry DID use whirlwind arms actually, so you're wrong he used them in the second to last episode first season. Thawne doesn't have to use his death hand while running, he's still done it on moving targets or targets not unconscious. Not to mention Barry in their fight only stopped due to Eddie....

Except it's not false equivalence. Peitro was too slow, period you're going to use Thawne getting tagged by an arrow I'll use QS not dodging a bullet because he's not fast enough and nor as durable as the speedsters either....Guess he didn't move faster then a speeding bullet apparently...

Actually yes, you're wrong. Barry wasn't QUITE experienced at all, he was still learning...he hadn't mastered his speed, if he has he would have known how to phase, time travel, windmill, vibrate through walls, go intangible etc, etc from the start. Clearly not the case. So actually not irrelevant, it's a logical point regarding their relationships so you're being a hypocrite saying "DC team won't work well" for the same reason, yet for Marvel you give me the the "friendships are irrelevant" lmao, same difference genius so get the hell out of here with your hypocritical nonsense please.

It's completely relevant. Why would the CW team, which is filled with a bunch of guys that hate each other, work together well?

Hate each other? The only two who HATE each other are Thawne and Barry, lol and even they worked together with the truth out in the last episode of season 1, are you blind dude? This also contradicts your prior point, you're cherry picking and telling me hypocritical nonsense like "friendships are irrelevant" which you can't do that, sorry.

I don't care who they are, the DC team are part of the JL who's cooler, older and more original then the Avengers. Your point? This is a battle forum, actual plot is irrelevant as the OP makes up the rules. That's the point, you should read how it works before you post.

Who says they wouldn't go for her? She's arguably the biggest threat, and as heat mentioned already it's logical to send one speedster more than capable to take her down before she does anything...Yes, other canon fodder Avengers except for Thor, or a girl who can TP and such? hmmm

Nope, lack of teamwork isn't an argument...they've never even worked together before so that alone proves you're wrong. They could work well for all we know as a unit. Hence the idea for Legends of Tomorrow, unlikely, odd group that obviously will wind up working well together...oh and I recommend checking into something called Suicide Squad, funny last time I checked they're as different from each other as day and night yet worked well together. Your post has no relevance.

And nobody on the Marvel team has resisted TP either from a TP or one of Grodd's power, so if DC gets TP'ed so will Marvel team by Grodd...Grodd can match that, he's had two TP showings one of which effecting Flash a metahuman, if Grodd pushed himself I'm sure he could...

Obviously you dont know what I'm talking about in general...

Only one spewing nonsense here is you, and hypocritical moot points no less. Wasn't aware I was trying to "fool" anyone? ok...

Yes, and overall fighting ability includes H2H combat guy. What the hell does fighting ability have to do with powers exactly? Barry doesn't always slow down to fight, you obviously missed the episode where he fights Multiplex, Grodd and shapeshifting dude not to mention Thawne....hardly what I'd call ineffectual especially when 15 years from now Barry keeps up with RF easily and messes him up as to why he gets stuck in the past in the first place. Duh.

Mere speculation, not fact. Grodd is a strong TP, he can match her in that category at least I'm sure...

Yes, I read what you said but that's not what you said earlier, are caps supposed to mean more authority or something otherwise you're just going to annoy people with "cap rage" mentality ;)

Wrong, he's used it on moving targets Mason was moving around running away from him and Thawne not only targeted him but killed him through a wall no less AND he's done so to Cisco who was backpedalling and Flash when the finale he realized he came back and didn't stop Thawne from killing his mom. Pretty sure he was fighting Flash and only stopped doing vibrate death punch by Eddie shooting himself thus effecting Thawne since he's a future relative...

Who said I was referring to the comics? I was referring to the movie versions since that is what's being used here right? Not comic versions so no, doesn't backfire on me it proves my case. Nice try trying to put words in my mouth but not going to work.

No you have no idea what you're talking about, it's still season one and he's still learning....again like I said earlier if he "mastered his speed and powers" as you say, how come Jay will teach him this season? How come he doesn't phase, move lightspeed daily, do IMP, vibrate punch people or go through walls daily? Oh yeah because he's still learning....

You mean like you bring up early on Flash pre mastered his speed and try to use circumstantial plot devices like the arrow crossover?

Yeah I kind of do watch the show, clearly you don't though...

Right "circumstantial" my butt. You denied that he can't use it and has to be psychological...

First off you prove nothing wrong, I proved you wrong because you don't even know your own vid correctly and took it out of context. Oneshot Hulk did to Loki, then Avengers save the day come back for Loki funny you see him just getting up in the SAME spot Hulk smashed him in....why's that? Was loki drinking shots? Getting laid? Waiting for them with an evil plan? Nope. I was right in the first place you're the one denying and not even understanding your own video lol...

You said Loki wasn't oneshot when clearly Hulk oneshot him with a grab and few smashes...for hours no less, I'm not the one wrong here you are.

So what? The feat still happens and he saves the day, the only flaw we know of is once the anamoly was opened enemies from alternate Earth leaked through, which wasn't Barry's fault to begin with since he didn't open it...

(sigh) I said Flash is the only one who could stop it yes, how, why doesn't matter just that he did. What are you not getting?

And I know a ton of people who'd disagree with you and say the same as me with only reason Flash didn't stomp Arrow was simply because Arrow HAS his own show, duh. Aside from the fact that they're both on the JL, why would one kill another again? Yeah....it was PIS and as you say "circumstantial" for the plot. Funny how you use that word so much when convenient but fact is that door swings both ways.

Barry is not a bad fighter consistently, he's had good fights and used his speed with it...

Because it's umm apart of Barry's power? That's why it's relevant, why is Thor's hammer relevant? Exactly...cherry picking again you are.

That doesn't even make any sense.

lol yes it does make sense but you simply have no counter case for that one huh? Even you know Thor is nothing without his toy...but that's ok if I were a thor fanboy I wouldn't admit that either.

Wrong, Marvel team has more fodder here. Thawne, Flash or MOS can oneshot most of the team in under a few seconds.

lol You just lied. You got corrected and caught because before you said "Barry didn't consistently catch bullets he did it once" now you're saying otherwise lmao...too funny man. You were proved wrong before and now you realized that so you're pretending like you agreed with me, when you didn't...

Ah we're doing memes now? Ok...just listing the facts.

Destroyed the universe? lol no, galaxies and planets maybe but Universe? No...Hulk didn't fight anyone superior to Thor, Abomination is a joke and Hulk 2.0 just another brute. CA went toe to toe with Ultron..for like what, a minute few at most? Pretty sure Ultron busted his shield and beat him...

You proved nothing wrong, I said Tony is the director and intelligence of the team while CA is the leader. There's a difference....I brought it up again because you clearly misunderstood something I said.

So, regardless of Loki's "Frost Giant" heritage, he's still a puny mortal who got oneshot by Hulk....that's so what.

Pretty sure comic flash at first had similar problems actually if you read the comics, he didn't MASTER his speed powers right away, he finds out through experimentation and trial and error ie learning from others NOT to go too fast or he'll rupture barriers. That sounds like mastering his powers right off the bat? Ok...and again, if TV Flash mastered everything in one or two shows it would be dull and unoriginal. He'd oneshot everyone, who wants to see that?

Why wouldn't it matter? I asked you "not everyone member has H2H good fighting skill on Avengers" you said "yes" I said no, when has tony done so out of his suit since martial arts requires you know no mechs or gimmicks, you know this right? So that's why it matters...

Really depowered? Proof he did it depowered cause pretty sure he wasn't that depowered...I know Hulk fought Abomination but he's just a Hulk 2.0, a brute I don't see the relevance nor how that's impressive. Hulk fought him and a giant electric monster. Wow.

You tell me what relevance, you're the one who denied it the first time saying "grodd only showed once" clearly I proved you wrong as he showed up technically twice....

*sigh* going on about the fact that comic versions are different then TV/Film versions which are the versions being used here....

lol no, you're the one dense you're obsessed with "fighting skills" well Flash has won most of his fights so IDK what you're going on about "he fights dumb" no he doesn't, he fights inexperienced at first, there's a difference between stupid and inexperienced. If he were dumb he'd lose all his fights, clearly not the case now. If anything Hulk and Thor are dumb because one can't control himself worth a lick and the other is an arrogant chode with a hammer.

Incorrect, not an excuse it's FACT. Barry is still learning his powers and very inexperienced, if you can't see this you're obviously ignorant or don't watch the show at all.

To sum it up, DC teams win, common sense and I'm done arguing with a dude clearly trolling. Yawn.

lol this thread...funny.

@seido@heatforce Good points. I agree.

That's actually pretty rich considering the other poster specifically addressed all of your points and concerns. But yeah, let's just say everybody who doesn't agree with us is a troll. Definitely easier that way than actually winning the argument.

@gaztacular: lol right, if you call dodging counterpoints, insults and novels taking things out if context then sure lol if you translate that into a 'winning argument" lol

You're probably him under a diff namec random guy boasting about random dude addressing another guy you don't even know? Yeah...

How typical.

Oh really? What counter points did I dodge? What have I taken out of context?

Lol like everything?

Didn't even @ me

I don't know what you're talking about, I went through your entire post, and addressed every point you made. If anything, you were the one ignoring things in my posts.

stormdriven: I beg to differ.

What did I miss then? What did I take out of context?

Yeah. I will just agree to disagree.