FINALS: TNBB vs HigorM (TNBB WINS!)

@thenewbluebeetle007: actually I dont think you both will.

I've read through it a few times and have changed my mind as often.

first I was going to give my vote to Higorm then to neither of you.

if the was purely a battle between Kang and this team IMHO it's only Kang'ss to loose. That is baring plot devices he should beat this team fairly easily.

The reason I couldnt come to a complete decision is the lack of actual full sell on behalf of both sides. Higorm aluded to much of what kang can achieve but didnt put up all the evidense. Tnbb'ss argument to a degree relies on no limits fallacy or applying completely different types of feats to justify why they would work on Kang (wwhen they in fact wont)

There really is no justifiable way that tnbb'stnbb's team should detect or penetrate Kangs tech. He has remmailed undetected by celestial level beings vastly greater than any on tnbb's team. His force field has protected him from that level of attacks also.

What makes Kangs tech so impressive is that it is all based on tachion technology. The reason tp wont sense him no matter how powerful it is is simply his tech means that while he is there with you his protection means in the sense of time he is out of sync. His mind is litterally not even in the same time zone as your team. His force fields are the same.

Neither side really sold me on a final solution to obtain a win in this battle! So I call a draw.

@beatboks1: ouch.

Thanks for the input, I'll definitely take it into account for future battles.

@beatboks1: well if you thought that kang would win in a fight and didn't give your vote to higor then I guess I must be doing something right :D

just one little thing: if you could put your vote in spoilers so as to not sway another voter I would greatly appreciate it.

Bump for votes

@sirfizzwhizz@lukehero@icecold14@comicdude360

care to drop a vote?

@higorm: @thenewbluebeetle007: There is some epic arguments, but honestly, way too much info to keep track of for a proper vote. I am abstaining. Halfway through I was getting confused as to what was already said lol. Im not good with big arguments like this.

@beatboks1: also btw, time manip wasn't allowed so his mind would have to be in the present. Just clearing that up for future voters.

lol, ok. Thanks for the (partial) read :D

Dude Kang IS in the present but his shields and his cloaks put up a tachion field that basically has a phased time field between him and you. It's like having an outer layer that is in your time an middle layer (or several) in a slightly different time(s) and the inner also in your time. It's not time manip it's just how his cloaks work.

I fail to see why I should "spoiler" any of my vote when no one else was asked to. My vote is less favoring to any one player as it equally scathed you both. In fact if anything of what i could have said of your debate i left you relatively untouched.

I could have gone on to point out how

There are many things i could have said to "influence a vote not yet made but didn't. Considering I really didn't go into the short falls of your debate in great detail i'd be grateful and and leave it there.

@beatboks1:

I fail to see why I should "spoiler" any of my vote when no one else was asked to. My vote is less favoring to any one player as it equally scathed you both. In fact if anything of what i could have said of your debate i left you relatively untouched.

Uh... because you brought up stuff like

Dude Kang IS in the present but his shields and his cloaks put up a tachion field that basically has a phased time field between him and you. It's like having an outer layer that is in your time an middle layer (or several) in a slightly different time(s) and the inner also in your time. It's not time manip it's just how his cloaks work.

There really is no justifiable way that tnbb'stnbb's team should detect or penetrate Kangs tech. He has remmailed undetected by celestial level beings vastly greater than any on tnbb's team. His force field has protected him from that level of attacks also.

What makes Kangs tech so impressive is that it is all based on tachion technology. The reason tp wont sense him no matter how powerful it is is simply his tech means that while he is there with you his protection means in the sense of time he is out of sync. His mind is litterally not even in the same time zone as your team. His force fields are the same.

When a lot of these arguments (such as tachion field phasing the time field) were never brought up once. Nobody else was asked to because nobody else brought up stuff like this; if someone reads this after the debate then they may be influenced by it.

@beatboks1: I thought I've made myself clear during the debate that Kang was hidden between two dimensional fields, I've presented scans and statements about it, which were never actually disputed, so for future debates I'll try to be even more clear about it. Thanks for the breakdown.

BUMP for votes

@higorm: @thenewbluebeetle007:

Great CAV guys. Excellent stuff, a great end to a great tourney. I'm proud of having read this, and you should both be proud of yourselves congrats. Alright here goes my notes and opinions.

GRADES:

Team Picks & How You Used Your Team:

Usage of Scans:

Counters & Rebuttals:

Winner: TNBB

@lukehero: Fair enough, thanks for the vote. Maybe I should focus more on balance between defensive and offensive, also providing more reliable feats.

@lukehero: why are you posting here... go respond to our 2v2 match...

Kidding ofc! Thanks for the read, the vote, and the in-depth analysis. I'm very glad that you found this CaV enjoyable.

@thenewbluebeetle007: @higorm: Welcome. Great job guys.

@thenewbluebeetle007: @higorm: alright guys, sorry it took me so long to respond. I had built this fantastic breakdown, and then............before I had it saved.............POOF!!!! the power went out!!!!!!! aarrrrrggghhhh.

So, with that being said, here we go.

Cosmic casts his vote!

I first want to start off by saying you both did exceptionally well here. As others have stated, I swayed back and forth many times during the debate. I want you both top understand that when I cast a vote it's nothing personal, and wish I could vote for both of you, but ultimately there has to be a victor doesn't there?

SO I go against the grain here and cast my vote for Higor. First off let me say that his representation of Kang was spot on. It would be very difficult for TNBB to defeat a being such as Kang that is an established high end teambuster, and given that he did an exceptional job. An I do mean an exceptional job, especially against a debater of Higor's status. Yes there were flaws (such as what beatboks stated, that I recognized and thought as well), but there always will be in a debate...nobody's perfect.

Just to me....Higor's argument solidified how Kang would edge a win over the DC team. His argument overall was slightly more plausible (although TNBB did have the edge in Counters as lukehero stated)....it was Higor's overall debate that won me over. But I stress that it was by an incredibly slim margin and I almost voted a draw. I will say that I have an even higher level of respect (which was already fair enough) of TNBB after this debate, very well done. It was a great read from two debaters that have the concept of formatting and aesthetics down pat. Very well done gents.

@cosmicallyaware1: thanks for taking the time to read this mate! I'm glad you found this a good debate :D

Scoring

TNBB (7)

• Speedster101
• FirestormFate1919
• SpinnerComix
• OceanMaster21
• Nathaniel_Adam
• SolomonTheNotSoWise
• Lukehero

@higorm (2)

• Eisenfauste
• CosmicallyAware1

@cosmicallyaware1: Thank you very much!!

BUMP

some other people who I forgot to tag

@laflux@ssj_god@arcus@justicethorpsylocke@sovereign91001

no problem man.

@thenewbluebeetle007: @higorm: Great job to both of you, this is a very close CaV and it was really hard for me to pick a winner. All the arguments used here were useful and served a purpose for this battle, but there was one argument that in my opinion was the strongest and wasn´t properly countered, and that argument is Kang´s cloaking abilities. HigorM did a really good job explaining why Kang should win this battle using this ability, I also think that TNBB overrated Firestorm´s matter manipulation. Anyway, good job to both of you.

My vote goes to @higorm.

@thor_parker82: thanks for the read, though I am curious on why you thought I was overrating Firestorm's transmutation?

Scoring

TNBB (7)

• Speedster101
• FirestormFate1919
• SpinnerComix
• OceanMaster21
• Nathaniel_Adam
• SolomonTheNotSoWise
• Lukehero

@higorm (3)

• Eisenfauste
• CosmicallyAware1
• Thor_Parker82

@thor_parker82: Thanks man!!

@thenewbluebeetle007: IIRC you said Firestorm would get rid of Kang´s entire army using matter manipulation/transmutation. You still did a great job man, this was really close.

@higorm: No problem

and what's wrong with that? His transmutation is asteroid level in range, and I showed that he could transmute light....

Not tryna to sway your vote at all, and I truly appreciate the read/compliment, I just want to understand your reasoning so as to improve my arguments in the future.

Firestorm really is OP.

@thenewbluebeetle007: I don´t doubt that Firestorm´s matter manipulation is very good, but you didn´t showed a feat that would suggest he could defeat Kang´s entire army.

@thor_parker82: let me be clear first: this has nothing to do with the debate. I simply wish to educate you on the matter of Firestorm.

But he can absolutely transmute the entire army in one go.

As you can see, Firestorm has transmutation on the level of asteroids. And I already showed the scan of him transmuting light.

So unless Kang's army encompasses more than an asteroid in size...

@thenewbluebeetle007: Transmutating an asteroid is not the same as transmutating the most advanced army in the world, who probably have some kind of shielding of their own. But even if it worked, there is still no counter for Kang´s cloaking abilities which is the argument that made me vote for HigorM.

@thenewbluebeetle007: You should stop doing that. It does not add to the debate. I could easily debunk some of your votes considering they were very generic on reasoning. I could also claim one of the votes not to count considering the 1000 post rule.

I know you are counting every vote but the way you do it looks like your arguments had no flaws thus making the vote unsubstantiated.

Chill out bro, what harm am I doing? Is it so depraved of me to request further feedback, or to attempt to educate a voter on a character? These forums exist for that very purpose, no? To get feedback on one's debating and to learn more about characters.

And come on... I was even fair about the thing that we discussed in the PMs... many other debaters would not have done that.

Regarding the 1000 post rule, it's only to prevent trolls and the inexperienced, and I know for a fact that Solomon is neither (he in fact beat me in a debate).

You can argue with the voters if you want, I do not care.

If you want me to delete all my arguments against voters or something, I can do that.

@thenewbluebeetle007: I'm not upset, that was just a friendly request. I just don't consider to be useful to argue with votes, I usually tend to respect people's votes even when they come in the most generic way. That's just not me.

The thing is that the way you were doing it does not seem to have feedback purposes behind it, but that's just my opinion.

But if you can't avoid doing it I guess I'd have to deal with it and so I won't bother you anymore.

Ah sorry for misunderstanding. And yeah I guess I see your point, but you're established here on the Vine, upper echelon debater, while I'm still new and trying to reach that level. I need all the feedback I can get :P

I used to just say "do you have any additional feedback" but then I realized that people are lazy and that they tend to not give it to you. However if you say, "I don't understand, would you please explain why ______ didn't work" then people generally tell you why, at least in my experience. the posts have feedback purpose, but I intentionally don't make them seem that way.

@thenewbluebeetle007: Fair enough. I guess you successfully manage to stop my winning streak. I have not lost a single battle this year. Congrats :)

SUUUUUCH A LONG DEBATE. Finally finished though.

It was so freaking close, so many great back and forth arguments. Higor won some, and TNBB won some too, and some of them I ended up not even sure what to believe. I have to say that both debaters did an excellent job of providing evidence, presenting coherent points, and countering each others assertions. For a new debater TNBB really, REALLY impressed me. I look forward to seeing more things from him in the future. Unfortunately I'm not an expert in any of the characters in this thread, so I can't bring any outside knowledge to my decision making process here. Both came up with highly plausible scenarios, and both put a great deal of effort and detail into it. I am almost compelled to vote for TMBB based simply on how impressed i am with his debate in general, but I don't think that would be fair to Higor, who also put up a fantastic debate. In my mind I think that the one major problem I can see (from my point of view) is that TNBB never convinced me he would be able to detect the real Kang given his impressive cloaking and mind shields. I could be wrong, but doesn't galatus have massive TP powers? Regardless I commend both of you. Excellent start BB, can't stop raving about it.

Vote goes to HigorM, but really it could go either way easily.

What? You want to close votes? You do realize you're only down by three?

Thanks dude, it really means a lot coming from a hall of famer such as yourself :D

Although I'm mildly surprised that you think I'm "new," I mean relative to some others I could qualify as such but I've been here for like 2/3 of a year so far and I've clashed with other hall of fame debaters such as beatboks1, lvenger and sirfizzwhiz, winning once, losing once against Lvenger (though everyone said it was close), and the other one against SFW is open for votes at the moment.

I was actually going to claim your match on the CaV thread but live action is kinda hard to guage unless against animated/other live action and then it's tedious to make gifs :P

@thenewbluebeetle007: yeah I guess we can leave it up for votes..

@lunacyde: thanks for the vote!!

most of what you quoted there actually was brought up during the debate. I stated in my vote that the reason i DIDN'T vote for Higorm was because he didn't clarify it properly. The scan he used clearly showed "two dimensional" which essentially means that he's not there like a real person and lacking form in the real world (it was an old scan).

He also showed that his cloaks hid him from Galactus who's TP is leagues above that of MMH. he stated and showed that he was hidden from SS who in TP is pretty damn close to MMH's equal (as I might add is Dr Strange).

The whole point of my vote was that he should never have allowed you to successfully no sell the cloaking (which he did). This actually should influence votes against him and for you, so I'm not seeing what the problem you have is. If anyone should have a right to complain about what I've said it should be Higorm.

I spoilered what I said about your debate in the second post because this wasn't brought up or countered in any way by your adversary (and it should) during the debate.

@beatboks1: whoever said that I asked for a spoiler for my own benefit?

And whatever, keep it there if you like. No point arguing any further.

bump for votes

@higorm: Voting closes after the week-end, or first to 12. Whichever comes first

@thenewbluebeetle007: Okay boss.

@higorm: well, I guess we're done with votes. Thank you so much for participating, I hope you found this as fun and challenging as I did.

But we know that there can only be one winner, so congratulations to ME!

Final Tally

TNBB (7)

• @speedster101
• @firestormfate1919
• @spinnercomix
• @oceanmaster21
• @nathaniel_adam
• @solomonthenotsowise
• @lukehero

@higorm (3)

• @eisenfauste
• @cosmicallyaware1
• @thor_parker82
• @lunacyde:

Thanks to everyone that voted!

@thenewbluebeetle007: 7x4 not so bad after all. I've learned alot and this was very fun and entertaining, a true battle I was seeking to struggle. Thanks for the opportunity and once again, congratulations for the victory and the bonus for stopping my winning streak :P

Hope to face you again soon.

@higorm: hahaha thanks dude, same to you.

We could potentially face each other in my high tier or jac's amalgam

@thenewbluebeetle007: Congrats !!

@higorm: @thenewbluebeetle007: GG, guys, GG.

I'm proud to know I was the "first step" in your success TNBB

@thenewbluebeetle007: Yeah so far I don't know what's like to drop before the finals so see you there?

@higorm: we'll see dude, but my high tier tourney is stacked af, I wouldn't get so confident...

But I'm looking forward to seeing you in jac's amalgam :) warning you though my amalgam is almost impossible to beat

@thenewbluebeetle007: Almost might be enough for me ;P

@thenewbluebeetle007: Won his own tournament? Must be rigged O.o

Haha jk Much deserved, good job bro. Your getting better every time I see you devate.