FINALS: TNBB vs HigorM (TNBB WINS!)

@thenewbluebeetle007: Fair enough.

@higorm: BUMP

@thenewbluebeetle007: Tomorrow my friend, tomorrow. Life issues ftw.

@thenewbluebeetle007:

Closing Arguments

> Selective Beam

This is getting confusing. I believe that Firestorm could absorb the blast or teleport away, Thawne could easily run away, and Aquaman could deflect it with his trident (which is made out of a material that hurt Darkseid). So it's inconsequential.

It wouldn't be so easy. I can buy that Thawne would be able to avoid it but not Firestorm and Aquaman. Besides being a selective beam, the strike is designed to hurt and neutralize super powered beings. The fact that Kang was able to depower Wonder Man in his ionic form means that the weapon can be used to affect virtually anything with the given time for preparation, something Kang possess here. The trident being able to hurt Darkseid means nothing since the strike selects and covers the entire body of the target, it's not a regular energy ray.

> More counters

1. Martian Manhunter will utilize telepathy to locate Kang.

2. Transmutation will easily take care of your army. Firestorm has transmuted mountains and asteroids; an army shouldn't be a problem. Regarding holograms, we simply won't engage them. We don't need to defeat them; we only need to defeat the real Kang.

1. Won't work as already explained, Kang possess a shielded mind with standard gear, imagine with 8 hours prep and previous knowledge on your team. Not to mention he's hided in two dimensional planes that both Dr. Strange and Silver Surfer couldn't locate.

2. Won't work either. Firestorm can't transmute holograms and if he just ignore them your team will be easily striked by their weapons, which was used to defeat the Avengers and conquer the Earth before.

Kang will be hard pressed to fend off Eobard Thawne with the special weaponry that we have. How will he focus on Firestorm?

If there's something Kang excels in is multi-tasking, after all he's used to fight the Avengers an their multitude of members and different powers.

We don't have to engage the holograms. If we just find Kang (who is away from your army) and beat him, we win. In addition, the very definition of hologram indicates that the scans you showed weren't holograms, but merely intangible robots or something of the sort. Holograms can't affect anything in this world. So Firestorm can still transmute them if need be.

Yes you have, otherwise the victory will come even faster for Kang. You can't just ignore them and go after Kang who is completely out of your reach. How can Firestorm do anything to them if none of the Avengers couldn't? Even Thor's magical hammer wasn't able to inflict damage to it. The scan is very clear, showing (at the same time) it can strike and affect you just like it did before, that's how great Kang's tech is.

Listen, the point of the scan was not to compare ARGUS to Kang. It was to show that Martian Manhunter can bypass telepathic dampeners, unless they're very powerful (which would require feats, something you haven't shown in regards to telepathy).

So you demand feats while presenting very poor showings? Come on. I don't have to bring anything, it's very well explained why telepathy won't work, it never worked before and the fact Martian Manhunter can bypass human tech proves nothing. You are the one claiming he's able to do it yet you haven't provided one single evidence to support your arguments.

And do you have any proof that he could react to Thawne in the same way? Thawne is MANY times faster than Mjolnir.

He doesn't have to. First you must prove your team can find Kang. Then you show me how Thawne can cross dimensional fields. Until that point your team will be already defeated.

1.Your team enter the battlefield swarmed by Kang's army, holograms and weapons of all sorts firing at them with all kinds of future tech especially designed to neutralize superhuman foes, based on Kang's previous knowledge and time for preparation. MMH will use his telepathy and will fail to find anything, then he will be force to help his team, which at this point will be consisted of only Firestorm and Thawne. The hawks are a non-factor and Aquaman can't successfully deal with the amount of fire power Kang is delivering.

2. You need better feats of mind scanning and telepathic intrusion from MMH to prove he can find someone who already possess standard mental shields and in this case previous knowledge about the enemy and time to prepare against him.

3. They didn't used telepathy because it would be useless. Silver Surfer possess cosmic awarness which would tell him Kang could be find through psychic means, so instead they had to use other ways, which didn't work. Not even with Silver Surfer boosting Dr. Strange's power.

Scenarios

A) Telepathy

Exactly.

You merely brought your point of view about it, it wasn't a valid counter per say. MMH also lack feats to prove he would be able to accomplish such task. Kang has never been affected mind-wise, so assume he will be found to have his mind invaded by a telepath is a baseless assumption from your part, especially when the enemy has countless ways to prevent it, starting from his standard gear to prep time devices.

None of those feats are applicable here, since they didn't happen to a enemy like Kang with the given scenario for this fight. Kang was able to:

1. Hide himself and Dr. Doom from a cosmic being like Silver Surfer and the Supreme Sorcerer Dr. Strange.
2. Hide himself and Dr. Doom from two cosmic beings like Magus and Adam Warlock, being able to deliver a sneak attack on both of them.
3. Conquer Earth from his ship, using nothing but holograms and robots to overcome the Avengers, who weren't able to prevent him from having success on his mission.

B) Scour the Planet with Thawne

Eobard Thawne, the Reverse Flash, has consistently been faster than Barry Allen. He's multiple times the speed of light.

So he could easily search the Earth (and the skies) with his superspeed and newfound flight powers (thanks to Nth Metal armor), finding Kang and defeating him with weaponry that has hurt Darkseid, a being far more durable than Kang.

Couple of problems with this. First, he doesn't know where to look, how can he find something he can't see, sense or properly locate? He can search the entire planet but won't find Kang, who is hided in two dimensional planes. Also, Kang can teleport, so I don't see how Thawne will succeed on his task.

Summary

I just need to address one thing:

• You've failed to prove that your team could even find the real Kang, how do you expect me to believe your team can win here, since they can't even find the enemy?

Round 5: The Dazzling Conclusion!!

Final Rebuttals

Closing Arguments

> Selective Beam

This is getting confusing. I believe that Firestorm could absorb the blast or teleport away, Thawne could easily run away, and Aquaman could deflect it with his trident (which is made out of a material that hurt Darkseid). So it's inconsequential.

It wouldn't be so easy. I can buy that Thawne would be able to avoid it but not Firestorm and Aquaman. Besides being a selective beam, the strike is designed to hurt and neutralize super powered beings. The fact that Kang was able to depower Wonder Man in his ionic form means that the weapon can be used to affect virtually anything with the given time for preparation, something Kang possess here. The trident being able to hurt Darkseid means nothing since the strike selects and covers the entire body of the target, it's not a regular energy ray.

"Designed to hurt and neutralize super powered beings is vague," there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Firestorm could simply absorb the energy.

Aquaman is honestly inconsequential at this point.

> More counters

1. Martian Manhunter will utilize telepathy to locate Kang.

2. Transmutation will easily take care of your army. Firestorm has transmuted mountains and asteroids; an army shouldn't be a problem. Regarding holograms, we simply won't engage them. We don't need to defeat them; we only need to defeat the real Kang.

1. Won't work as already explained, Kang possess a shielded mind with standard gear, imagine with 8 hours prep and previous knowledge on your team. Not to mention he's hided in two dimensional planes that both Dr. Strange and Silver Surfer couldn't locate.

I'm not going to "imagine." The point of a CaV is to make arguments based on feats, not to obliquely ask the voters and your opponent to think of what the character YOU are representing might devise.

Hidden in two dimensional planes??? I never heard this argument before... and there's no proof of that in your scan.

2. Won't work either. Firestorm can't transmute holograms and if he just ignore them your team will be easily striked by their weapons, which was used to defeat the Avengers and conquer the Earth before.

He can absolutely transmute the holograms. Observe:

Gallery

Here, we see that Firestorm is able to transmute light and gamma rays.... and since holograms are made of light, he could thus transmute them.

If that doesn't work, we can just walk away. Thawne is fast enough to carry us all away from the holograms.

We don't have to engage the holograms. If we just find Kang (who is away from your army) and beat him, we win. In addition, the very definition of hologram indicates that the scans you showed weren't holograms, but merely intangible robots or something of the sort. Holograms can't affect anything in this world. So Firestorm can still transmute them if need be.

Yes you have, otherwise the victory will come even faster for Kang. You can't just ignore them and go after Kang who is completely out of your reach. How can Firestorm do anything to them if none of the Avengers couldn't? Even Thor's magical hammer wasn't able to inflict damage to it. The scan is very clear, showing (at the same time) it can strike and affect you just like it did before, that's how great Kang's tech is.

Look, my friend, your entire freaking argument is based on the assumption that Kang is unable to be found. You've provided no significant feats to support it, either! Surfer and Strange WEREN'T USING TELEPATHY. Martian Manhunter could absolutely detect Kang.

Thor couldn't inflict damage, because the hologram is made out of light, and Thor can't hurt light.

You continue to think that all attacks are the same. They're not! A physical attack is not an energy based attack, and neither are tantamount to transmutation. Just because the hologram wasn't hurt physically doesn't mean that they're immune to transmutation.

Listen, the point of the scan was not to compare ARGUS to Kang. It was to show that Martian Manhunter can bypass telepathic dampeners, unless they're very powerful (which would require feats, something you haven't shown in regards to telepathy).

So you demand feats while presenting very poor showings? Come on. I don't have to bring anything, it's very well explained why telepathy won't work, it never worked before and the fact Martian Manhunter can bypass human tech proves nothing. You are the one claiming he's able to do it yet you haven't provided one single evidence to support your arguments.

Ahem, very poor showings? So using telepathy on a reality warper, on Green Lanterns, on Despero isn't good enough for you? Especially when no anti-telepathy feats were shown?

And do you have any proof that he could react to Thawne in the same way? Thawne is MANY times faster than Mjolnir.

He doesn't have to. First you must prove your team can find Kang. Then you show me how Thawne can cross dimensional fields. Until that point your team will be already defeated.

Dimensional fields... an argument that wasn't even brought up until now. Well, Firestorm, as seen in his Pre-52 solo series, can see across various dimensional spectrums and teleport there, which he did in Brightest Day when he teleported to the Anti-Matter Universe. So even if Manhunter was unable to detect Kang, Firestorm could detect him.

1. Once Martian Manhunter realizes with his telepathy that Kang isn't present, he'll mentally tell Thawne and Firestorm, who will get out of there and teleport Aquaman and himself out of there, respectively.

2. You'd need better feats of mental resistance to say that MMH couldn't detect you.

3. Weaker version? I have Composite. I'm not saying J'onn would defeat Surfer or Strange in combat, but neither Norrin nor Strange used telepathy in the scans presented, rendering the feat inapplicable in this battle.

1.Your team enter the battlefield swarmed by Kang's army, holograms and weapons of all sorts firing at them with all kinds of future tech especially designed to neutralize superhuman foes, based on Kang's previous knowledge and time for preparation. MMH will use his telepathy and will fail to find anything, then he will be force to help his team, which at this point will be consisted of only Firestorm and Thawne. The hawks are a non-factor and Aquaman can't successfully deal with the amount of fire power Kang is delivering.

Dude, at this point, I believe that Martian Manhunter can solo Kang. So can Firestorm.

You say that Kang is away from the battlefield, so why on earth would we engage the holograms? And even if we were forced to, Firestorm simply transmutes them all away within the first few seconds.

2. You need better feats of mind scanning and telepathic intrusion from MMH to prove he can find someone who already possess standard mental shields and in this case previous knowledge about the enemy and time to prepare against him.

Would mind-wiping Green Lantern be enough for you? A Green Power Ring is just as advanced as Kang's tech, and provides just as much TP resistance, if not more... yet MMH mind-wiped him easy.

3. They didn't used telepathy because it would be useless. Silver Surfer possess cosmic awarness which would tell him Kang could be find through psychic means, so instead they had to use other ways, which didn't work. Not even with Silver Surfer boosting Dr. Strange's power.

"They didn't use telepathy because it would be useless?" Does that make any sense? I guess that every foe that's ever defeated Martian Manhunter is automatically immune to telekinesis, telepathy, phasing, and getting beaten down physically then.

You need to definitively prove that he was immune to telepathy on MMH's level, something that you haven't even come close to doing.

Scenarios

A) Telepathy

Now, my opponent claims that because Kang has a mindshield and because both Dr. Strange and the Silver Surfer were unable to detect Kang, Team Brightest Day won't be able to either.

Exactly.

I countered this by pointing out the lack of telepathy in the scan, displaying that a lack of blatant telepathy (as well as a lack of telepathy feats for Strange and Surfer) allows Martian Manhunter to detect Kang.

You merely brought your point of view about it, it wasn't a valid counter per say. MMH also lack feats to prove he would be able to accomplish such task. Kang has never been affected mind-wise, so assume he will be found to have his mind invaded by a telepath is a baseless assumption from your part, especially when the enemy has countless ways to prevent it, starting from his standard gear to prep time devices.

MMH has used telepathy on reality warpers, Green Lanterns, Despero, Dr. Psycho, and more.

You've never described any way that Kang could prevent telepathy. Thus we can logically say that telepathy will work.

To further reinforce this point, allow me to show instances of J'onn's prodigious prowess in the field of mental powers.

None of those feats are applicable here, since they didn't happen to a enemy like Kang with the given scenario for this fight. Kang was able to:

1. Hide himself and Dr. Doom from a cosmic being like Silver Surfer and the Supreme Sorcerer Dr. Strange.
2. Hide himself and Dr. Doom from two cosmic beings like Magus and Adam Warlock, being able to deliver a sneak attack on both of them.
3. Conquer Earth from his ship, using nothing but holograms and robots to overcome the Avengers, who weren't able to prevent him from having success on his mission.

1. They weren't using telepathy

2. They weren't using telepathy

3. This isn't even telepathy related.

"They didn't happen to an enemy like Kang?" And what kind of enemy is that? If you mean an enemy with no proven telepathy defense, you'd be correct.

B) Scour the Planet with Thawne

Eobard Thawne, the Reverse Flash, has consistently been faster than Barry Allen. He's multiple times the speed of light.

So he could easily search the Earth (and the skies) with his superspeed and newfound flight powers (thanks to Nth Metal armor), finding Kang and defeating him with weaponry that has hurt Darkseid, a being far more durable than Kang.

Couple of problems with this. First, he doesn't know where to look, how can he find something he can't see, sense or properly locate? He can search the entire planet but won't find Kang, who is hided in two dimensional planes. Also, Kang can teleport, so I don't see how Thawne will succeed on his task.

He can scour the Earth in minutes, if not seconds. He'll just stick his new trident out, and run through anything that gets in his way.

Summary

I just need to address one thing:

• You've failed to prove that your team could even find the real Kang, how do you expect me to believe your team can win here, since they can't even find the enemy?

You've relied on this treastise throughout the entire debate, but both Firestorm and Martian Manhunter can detect Kang.

Let's quickly go over one thing: HigorM has failed to show that if we find Kang, he would defeat me. His entire case relies on Kang not being detected.

So, if you think that Martian Manhunter's feats of mind-wiping Kyle Rayner, reading the mind of a reality warper, mentally incapacitating Despero, and doing the same to Doctor Psycho are sufficient to say that he'd be able to find a foe that has no proven telepathy resistance, my team should win.

Normally I would make this longer and more elaborate, but I firmly believe that I've showed sufficient feats to prove that my team would win.

Summary

• Martian Manhunter is an insanely powerful telepath, while Kang has no definitive feats of resisting telepathy.
• Firestorm can see across various dimensional spectrums, and he can locate Kang that way.
• Firestorm can also transmute whatever Kang throws at him, since no resistance to transmutation was shown and I've shown that he can transmute light and thus, holograms.
• No argument was made for the scenario of my team finding Kang (a perfectly valid scenario in my opinion), so if I can find him, I believe I should take home a victory in this match.
• Higor has been evasive here, not explicitly showing feats and oftentimes answering an argument with a divergent response.

Good game sir.

Tagging for Votes as requested

@spinnercomix@lukehero@solomonthenotsowise:

Tagging some other people

@cosmicallyaware1@firestormfate1919@darkseid1006@beatboks1@darkraiden@jacthripper@oceanmaster21@speedster101@nimamindtricks@thetruebarryallen@ssj_god@hulkage@arcus:

come drop a vote if you have the time

@higorm: you can tag other people if you wish

@higorm: @thenewbluebeetle007: Well guys, this was in fact the closest battle I've ever read (I haven't read many, so I don't know if that is saying much). You guys both did amazing, and I had a lot of trouble selecting the winner.

So... the winner of this battle (to me, anyways) .....

Is.....

GOING TO REVEALED RIGHT AFTER THIS COMMERCIAL BREAK!

I know you guys wanna do this to me, right now.

And the winner...

Is....

TNBB!

Now I will say, HigorM had me all for him for a while.

Then I got to the last section...

This feat sold it for me

Gallery

I thought to myself "Until TNBB shows me some evidence he'd be able to counter the shields, Higor wins this easily."

But TNBB pulled this card, and it sold it.

If you never posted that, I would've given my vote to Higor. His guys were already enough to take Kang down by sheer force, but thanks to the shields that was TNBB's biggest problem.

So in the end, this close battle was finally sold by one feat. This proves that one post, one feat, one word can make all the difference.

@thenewbluebeetle007: Great battle indeed. But although the battle is over, I need to reply to your statement that I didn't brought feats or only presented the argument on my last post, about the dimensional planes. They were posted on post n. 40 and 44.

@thenewbluebeetle007: @higorm: TNBB is gonna get my vote here. I feel like his arguments were better constructed and he solidified his argument with more solid evidence where as there was a lot of assumptions made by Higorm.

Basically TNBB made me beleive his win condition more. Good job both of you :)

@thenewbluebeetle007: has my vote both did great best cav i seen in long time but after reading over and over i belive thenewbluebeetle007 won my vote good job again to both

Lol, i have to read it all but basically the most things i've seen is i can, no you can't, yes is that, no is other and a lot...

of that tomorrow

@dedmanwalkin@sherlock@killemall@jestersmiles@killerwasp@wyldsong@sovereign91001@comicstooge@pr0metheus@thor_parker82@notatreeabush@allstarsuperman@sirfizzwhizz

please come and vote, this battle deserves as many votes as possible!!

:D

@thenewbluebeetle007: @higorm: thanks for the tag. Lemme read through a couple times, evaluate some things, and I will be back to drop a vote. promise.

@cosmicallyaware1: sure no problem!

@thenewbluebeetle007Gotta say great debate! Not as one sided as I thought it was going to be. However I have to give this one to TNBB his team is stacked! Perfect teamwork with Firestorm, MM, and Thawn! That's to much for a Della like Kang without in depth knowledge. I see it like this Kang gets all set up and ready, TNBB team lays out the plan,fodder guys rush in, hawk girl gives zoom her mace(maybe), MM scans for Kang and holds him in place for at the most 10 seconds, telepathicly tells his team where he is, firestorm then blips him from existing while zoom is using the speed force and beating on thim. Kang might very well be able to kill the other characters in that small time span but none of the guys on Tnbb's team are jobbers and could hold their own for a considerable amount of time on their own before loseing. Too much is in the favor of TNBB so he wins.

@speedster101: @oceanmaster21: @solomonthenotsowise: thanks for the votes :)

@thenewbluebeetle007: I voted too dude.

But you made me scroll down too much ;P

JK, thanks for the vote!

@solomonthenotsowise: suppose to be based on arguments souly. Not who you think would actually win.

@thenewbluebeetle007: pleasure as always :)

Don't be fooled by his post count, solomon is a great debater and knows what's up and everything he said, I said in the debate too :D

@thenewbluebeetle007: Thank you sir :) I am very knowledgeable I just don't have very much time and I don't post on things that don't interest me. I know how these work and I voted for TNBB the rest was flavor.

@thenewbluebeetle007: Ok, just wanted to inform him Incase he was new :)

@thenewbluebeetle007: my Vote also goes to TNBB, you. You had solid arguments about detecting Kang, fighting the holograms, win conditions. I was throughout the battle Entertained good job guys

BUMP FOR VOTES

@firestormfate1919@cosmicallyaware1@lukehero

@thenewbluebeetle007: I'll vote when I get home. I vote for TNBB, but I don't really want to type the reasons until I'm off my Phone.

@thenewbluebeetle007: Alright. This was a great debate, but HigorM was outgunned from the beginning. He debated masterfully, but never truly compensated. TNBB had counters for just about everything, and although I think the debating was somewhat equal throughout that first advantage gave TNBB the win. Higor biggest chance (and he did well defending it) was the Shields. I felt those last two rounds TNBB successfully debunked their use, especially so with the scan Spinner mentioned in his vote. In conclusion, you both debated very well but TNBB was able to convince me that his team would take the battle.

@higorm: Drop me a reminder tomorrow to read this over my friend.

@wyldsong: I'll certainly do it brother :)

@wyldsong@cosmicallyaware1@lukehero@beatboks1@dedmanwalkin@sherlock@jestersmiles@killerwasp@sovereign91001@comicstooge@pr0metheus@sirfizzwhizz

bump 4 votes!

@higorm: I am working my through it. Been insanely busy at work today, and am having to do everything in between runs. Took me 3-4 hours just to get images loaded into a post...911 is busy today!

take your time dude, there's no time limit on this match. Open for votes until @higorm: wants to close it

Scoring

TNBB (6)

• SpinnerComix
• Speedster101
• OceanMaster21
• FirestormFate1919
• SolomonTheNotSoWise
• Nathaniel_Adam

HigorM (0)

Higor, what I told you in the PMs still applies. I just didn't want to outright say it here, y'know?

@thenewbluebeetle007: Sure.

@wyldsong: No problem at all mate! Where do you work?

@higorm: Paramedic/Firefighter

I've followed this for sometime would either of you care if I voted?

@eisenfauste: Not at all bro.

@wyldsong: Nice!! I admire you guys very much!

Alright my vote goes to @higorm. I'm a little surprised that TNBB has 6 votes, he did a great job defending his team and putting out a strategy but HigorM's counters were more succinct and IMO proved many of TNBB's counters or strategies null. He showed that Kang will be starting the battle cloaked with telepathic blocks that MM can't penetrate. He also showed that Kang will start with an army to attack, kill, or otherwise tie up TNBB's team. Not to mention he has shown with prep that Kang can go from a casual team buster to nigh unstoppable in some cases.

I wasn't convinced that TNBB's team could detect or stop Kang from steamrolling them or incapping them.

Good debate you guys.

Thanks for the read and the vote, though if you could, would you care to tell me what feats he showed that said that MMH couldn't penetrate?? And also, I would appreciate it if you would tell why you thought I couldn't transmute the army when Firestorm has feats of transmuting light and such...

I'm not trying to sway you (and even if I have, I wouldn't allow you to change your vote), I just want to know what were the flaws in my plan / what I could have done better...

Thank you for your service to our country sir, mad respect :)

Scoring

TNBB (6)

• SpinnerComix
• Speedster101
• OceanMaster21
• FirestormFate1919
• SolomonTheNotSoWise
• Nathaniel_Adam

HigorM (1)

• Eisenfauste

@higorm: @thenewbluebeetle007: i haven't forgotten guys and have read through again. I am typing up a detailed breakdown on why I am casting my vote for whom.....but can I post it tomorrow? I really wanna watch the new Flash episode now........

@cosmicallyaware1: Sure, take your time.

I won't take too long my friend. And I absolutely plan on making my voice heard in this debate's outcome. I just had a very tough day at work and am incredibly sore already from tonight's workout at the gym (back and triceps). Need to decompress..................

I was in the same boat as you, but I knew that TNBB's team was already enough to beat him, he just needed to get past the shields. But as I said in my response it was clear vote for Higor, but then TNBB posted this....

Gallery

That sold it. It was the one feat he needed to get my vote.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying this is my opinion on.... you're opinion? That sounds weird.

@thenewbluebeetle007: Kang showing that not even the sorcery supreme or surfer could detect them was enough to show that MM most likely wouldn't be able to detect them via TP. His telepathic shielding is just added security.

I know firestorms transmutation is tricky but giving Kang that much prep time means he could create devices to take out firestorm at the beginning of the battle, incap him etc.

I know prep is a tricky thing to debate about but with Kang's abilities he would be able to do it.

Your debating was good, I don't have the time atm to go back through and pick out which rebuttals didn't pack much of a punch from you. I think it really came down to strategy here and HigorM showed his strategy was superior if almost impossible to counter IMO.

@cosmicallyaware1: Hahaha sure dude, take your time. I envy you for being able to watch flash now - I'm two episodes behind (studying for exams) and everyone at my school is talking about it :P

@eisenfauste: Thank you for taking some time to read through it and vote! Much appreciated :)

@higorm: np.

@thenewbluebeetle007: @higorm: Thanks for the tag, I didn´t respond because I had to read it all before giving my vote, now that I have finished reading it, I got to say great job to both of you, this is really close and I will have to read it again.

Can I vote tomorrow ?