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#1 Edited by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

First, some music to set the tone:

WELCOME! To the grand finale of one of the best tournaments in the past few months! After beasts such as FirestormFate, Jacthripper, and Serrure were eliminated (or forfeited :P), after powerhouses such as Despero and Loki bowed out, two debaters remain standing:

In one corner we have a relatively novice debater who's looking to prove that he can hang with the best, please welcome TheNewBlueBeetle007 and Brightest Day!

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Firestorm, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Eobard Thawne, Captain Boomerang, Hawk

Perks

  • 15 Minutes Prep
  • Basic Knowledge
  • Perfect Teamwork

And on the other hand, looking to put the young upstart in his place, give it up for the mighty Kang the Conqueror and HigorM!

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  • 8 hours prep
  • Basic Knowledge (general powersets, no weaknesses or specifics. For example you'd know I have a telepath and a matter manipulator, but you wouldn't know that Firestorm is made up of two beings, or that J'onn is a martian)

Rules!

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  • No power absorption/mimicking
  • Time manipulation may only be used to make one's team 2 mach levels above what they normally are
  • DC Characters are Pre/New 52
  • All teams have perfect teamwork
  • All characters are in character unless otherwise specified
  • Please be polite
  • Only those with 1000 posts or more may vote
  • Fight takes place here:
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GOOD LUCK AND HAVE FUN!

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#2 Posted by SpinnerComix (3989 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V man!

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#3 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36317 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmmmmm,hhhhmmmmmm

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#4 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by MICKEY-MOUSE (36317 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Edited by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: I think we should do introductions first. I'd also appreciate it if you went first.

@lukehero said:

@thenewbluebeetle007: Hmmmmmmmmm Hmmmmmhshshshshshshsjsjdj

TF Batman...JK Votes ;)

sure

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#7 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: Now I see it, you didn't tagged me. Will reply there first and then post here..

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#10 Posted by SolomonTheNotSoWise (851 posts) - - Show Bio

Ah man. I cant vote. :(

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#11 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

Ah man. I cant vote. :(

I can make an exception for you my friend... the rule is just so that only credible people vote and I know that you're a trustworthy voter :)

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#12 Posted by SolomonTheNotSoWise (851 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: Ah thank you. I have been very busy the past few weeks and haven't been on. Sorry about having to forfeit the final match. Next tournament you happen to come across let me know!

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#13 Edited by Rexorr (1277 posts) - - Show Bio

Gl hf

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#14 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: Ah thank you. I have been very busy the past few weeks and haven't been on. Sorry about having to forfeit the final match. Next tournament you happen to come across let me know!

Nah don't worry about it dude! If I remember you recently got married? It's great to spend time with your wife, may you have a happy life together!

And actually... I'm co-hosting a tournament right now if you want in... tbh I'm frightened to see what prep you'd come up with for this one...

www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/universe-tournament-speedster101-and-tnbb007-1651689/

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#15 Posted by SolomonTheNotSoWise (851 posts) - - Show Bio

@solomonthenotsowise said:

@thenewbluebeetle007: Ah thank you. I have been very busy the past few weeks and haven't been on. Sorry about having to forfeit the final match. Next tournament you happen to come across let me know!

Nah don't worry about it dude! If I remember you recently got married? It's great to spend time with your wife, may you have a happy life together!

And actually... I'm co-hosting a tournament right now if you want in... tbh I'm frightened to see what prep you'd come up with for this one...

www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/universe-tournament-speedster101-and-tnbb007-1651689/

Looks like fun haha. Count me in!

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#16 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007:

More than a thousand empires have fallen against him in different times, in different dimensions... His name is feared and respected, his tech and his genius are among the best in the multiverse. He has many names, many guises, but one of them has been perpetually kept among the most powerful and dangerous foes the Avengers ever faced. Of course, it can be no other than..

Nathaniel Richards, better known as Kang the Conqueror:

"I am not human? Phah! As if being human was desirable! I am KANG! And that is better than being human!"

A time traveling conqueror with vast powers and technological supremacy. He has taken every opportunity to torment the Marvel Universe and is one of the Avengers greatest foes, Kang has amassed an empire with a citizenry of millions, and cut a swath of terror through the ages.

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> Kang's bio:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Powers/Abilities:

  • Anti-Aging: Kang is over 70 years old chronologically, but has managed to stop his aging completely using his far-flung futuristic technology. Thus he appears to be a man in his mid-40s.
  • Superior-level Intellect: Though it is hard to gauge Kang's intellect given his futuristic origins, his genius is nothing short of super-human by modern standards. He commands technology beyond the most sophisticated designs of Stark Industries and Doctor Doom, and has made breakthroughs in time travel and robotics. Kang is the only known time traveler (other than his counterpart Immortus) who has the ability to travel through time without creating divergences.
  • Political Savvy: Kang is a brilliant military tactician and a peerless general. Using his considerable charisma, Kang was able to raise an army and conqueror his first world within weeks of building his armor. He has conquered everything within 100 light years from Other Earth, including the counterpart Badoon and Shi'ar empires of his reality. Though he considers it a chore, Kang is also a capable statesman.
  • Skilled Combatant: Kang is a master of both armed and unarmed combat. He has managed to go toe-to-toe with Captain America, and single handedly held back Immortus's time-tossed army for several minutes during the Destiny War.
  • Indomitable Will: Through sheer force of will, Kang managed to separate himself from his future counterpart Immortus. Kang is absolutely fearless, and will stop at nothing to accomplish his own goals.

Paraphernalia:

Battle Armor: Kang's battle armor is produced from a rare synthetic alloy from the 40th century. It is neuro-kinetic, meaning it responds to his subconscious thoughts. Though Kang has no powers, his armor endows him with rough equivalents of super-human abilities.

Kang wears a full-body armor which enhances his strength. He is able to lift c. 5 tons when wearing the armor. The armor can project a force field covering a circle twenty feet around its user. The force field is durable enough to protect its user from direct nuclear strikes. The suit is supplied with air, food and water, allowing him to survive for quite a while before exhausting his resources. It comes with its own waste disposal system. The armor is equipped with various weapons, including "anti-graviton particle projectors in his gauntlets, concussive force blasters, circuitry accessing his ship's time machine, allowing him an "automatic recall" of a few seconds" and others. Kang has even demonstrated technology transferring his mind to alternate bodies when a body of his dies. He might thus extend his life indefinitely.

Weapons: Kang typically carries various weapons, such as an anti-matter defense screen generator, a "vibration-ray" projector, an electromagnetic field-amplifier, neutrino-ray warhead missile launcher (hand-gun size), electrical paralysis generator, nerve gas sprayer, and a molecular expander. Kang commands a vast armada of warriors from across the galaxy of his future era. He uses numerous robots, most notably his Growing-Man stimuloids, packed with the "Growth Pollen" of the world Kosmos, which causes them to grow in size and strength by absorbing kinetic energy.

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#19 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

Intro

First I'd like to clarify that all my characters are Composite and have perfect teamwork, meaning morals majority wins.

If you are a voter, please don't be intimidated by how long the CaV looks on the sidebar... most of it is pictures.

Firestorm the Nuclear Man

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"Watch out New York, Firestorm's back in town!"

Powerset:

Now this guy, is my favorite character in all of comics. Most underrated character on the Vine by a long shot. Caught in an explosion, Ronnie Raymond and Martin Stein fused to become the entity known as Firestorm, who had awesome powers induced by the Firestorm Matrix, which is the power of creation. As such, Ronnie can manipulate matter and fire nuclear powered blasts at opponents, along with many other powers that I will get into later.

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"The most dangerous being in the universe"

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Here we see Firestorm turning the entire statue of Liberty into solid Kryptonite, a wall into gas, and the floor into a trampoline.

Firestorm isn't afraid to fight dirty and in fact has come up with some pretty gruesome torture methods, such as this:

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Turning a guy's clothes to barbed wire... by the dialogue, I'd have thought he was a villain if I didn't know better.

Speaking of villains, composite allows me to access the morals of Earth-3 Firestorm aka Deathstorm. Meaning the score is 1-0 in favor of no morals.

Powerset:

  • Matter Manipulation
  • Intangibility
  • Temperature Control
  • Size Shifting
  • Enhanced Physiology
  • Nuclear Powered Blasts
  • some others

J'onn J'onnz AKA The Martian Manhunter

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After watching his race succumb to a virus engineered by his own brother, the Martian J'onn J'onnz went to Earth and vowed that no being would harm it the way Mars was harmed.

Though the Pre-52 version was slightly more of a Boy Scout, the New 52 version has no qualms about killing (he was a member of StormWatch).

He's arguably the most versatile character in DC, with a plethora of useful powers...

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Here we see his preeminent power - telepathy. I'll get into his best telepathic feats as the debate goes on, but know that he's one of the finest minds there is.

Powerset:

  • Shape Shifting
  • Telepathy
  • Telekinesis
  • Intangibility
  • Invisibility
  • Enhanced Physiology
  • Astral Projection

He will kill if necessary, but tries to avoid it.

Eobard Thawne aka Professor Zoom

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Eobard was once Barry Allen's biggest fanboy. But he eventually grew to resent the Flash, and became obsessed with beating him and doing him harm. Though he knows he can't kill Barry (as that would mess up the time stream and prevent him from ever becoming the Reverse Flash and making him unable to kill Barry, causing a time paradox), he tries to destroy Barry's life by killing his mother, and attempting to kill Iris West.

Powerset:

  • Super Speed
  • Time Manipulation
  • De-Aging

Morals:

He's evil.

Aquaman

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aah, the King of Atlantis. Arthur Curry represents the world of the Sea to the surface dwellers. He's criminally underrated and I think i'm going to use him quite a bit in this debate.

Just a little taste of what he can do...

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Powerset:

  • Hydrokinesis
  • Telepathy (originally limited to marine life, but later extended to everyone)
  • Ability to give seizures
  • Control over marine life

Hawkman and Hawkgirl

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Carter and Shiera Hall are reincarnations of the Pharoahs of ancient Egypt. Their mystical Nth Metal armor gives them flight, excellent durability, and other properties which they use to fight crime.

Powerset:

  • Flight
  • Enhanced Physiology

Hawk and Captain Boomerang

are unimportant here

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#20 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007:

Getting Started

For this fight, Kang possess the following perks:

  • 8 hours worth of preparation.
  • Basic Knowledge (general powersets, no weaknesses or specifics. For example you'd know I have a telepath and a matter manipulator, but you wouldn't know that Firestorm is made up of two beings, or that J'onn is a martian).

I believe that's not necessary for me to talk about Kang's prowess when it comes to achievements using prep.

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As you can see, Kang is a true beast when it comes to prepation to engage an enemy in a battle. Fighting multiples heroes here isn't something he's already used to do considering the countless times he has faced the Avengers. The only difference is going to be the application of his resources. I'm sure 8 hours is more than enough time to build a solid plan in this scenario. Kang possess means to counter most, if not all powers contained on your team, and that's what I'll be presenting as one of my key arguments..

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#26 Edited by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: post what you will be doing during prep please.

All I'll be doing is mind-link, and having Firestorm manufacture Nth Metal / metal of poseidon's trident alloy weaponry. And get Firestorm's shields up, of course.

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#27 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: Sure I'll definitely have something tomorrow. But basically Kang will have his ship and several high tech weapons deployed to be used against your team. Oh and of course his army of robots..

One question. Can Firestorm do all that within 15 min of prep?

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#28 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: yeah. Firestorm reacted to Dr. Light's lightspeed blasts so he could get his shields up no problem. In Firestorm 5 it was shown that he could "see inside" and reproduce metals and the like. All he has to do is make it into a sword shape.

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#29 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: Okay. Are going for a defensive boost with that Nth Metal I'm I right? Poseidon trident metal used here is the same that was able to hurt Darkseid?

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#30 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: defensive, and nth metal has some other unique properties like affecting shadows and such. And yeah, same metal that can hurt Darkseid.

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#31 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

@thenewbluebeetle007: Affect shadows? That's new to me. How does it work?

Hawkgirl was able to affect Shadow Thief who could go intangible. Nth Metal has mystical properties.

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#33 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: Oh okay, I thought you were talking about shadow manipulation. I'm aware of it's mystical/anti-magic properties. Not sure how that would apply to Kang but okay.

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#34 Posted by MasterKungFu (20773 posts) - - Show Bio

tag

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#35 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: my friend, when you sign up for a tourney you have an obligation to complete it. The fact that it's been 28 days and we're still only on round 1 is ridiculous. If you have real life work that's understandable, but you're in the freaking FINALS and I've seen you post on other matches. If you would like to forfeit, let me know so I can stop waiting on this. But please if you have the time have the common courtesy to respond.

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#36 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: Well, you said that we had all the time in the world since this is not round 1 but the finals, and I did warned you about the lateness, that's why I was posting in other matches the weren't final rounds. But if I somehow caused you any kind of harm or trouble I apologize. I have no intention to forfeit so I'll do my best to deliver my arguments.

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#37 Edited by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm said:

@thenewbluebeetle007: Well, you said that we had all the time in the world since this is not round 1 but the finals, and I did warned you about the lateness, that's why I was posting in other matches the weren't final rounds. But if I somehow caused you any kind of harm or trouble I apologize. I have no intention to forfeit so I'll do my best to deliver my arguments.

Well when you said lateness I expected like you responding to all other matches that you were in first and then posting here, not starting and posting in completely new ones. No harm done mate; I guess I'm at fault too for being unclear. But do try to respond a little quicker please, I'm very interested to see how you counter the immense versatility that my team brings :D

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#38 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: okay, fair enough.

My plan is basically this:

First let's remember my Team Buster perks:

  • 8 hours prep
  • Basic Knowledge

Okay so I believe that Kang can do a lot with prep since he's a legitimate team wrecker, highly trained warrior, an adept inventor, master strategist, and unmatched when it comes to time-physics. Kang has several life-times worth of experience and has honed his skills to be the ultimate conqueror. For Nathaniel Richards, war is both a hobbie and a lifestyle, he could just kill the Avengers but that wouldn't be a challenge, it wouldn't be fun.

Kang already possess knowledge on the enemies listed for this fight, as a master of time manipulation It's kinda hard to find someone he didn't already know. So he knows exactly what they are capable of and most important, how to beat them.

> Set up time: cloaking and shields!

Taking that into consideration that Kang force-fields will be raised up before the fight starts, which also means that Kang can and will use his 40th tech to set his personal cloaking that was able to cloak him and Dr. Doom from no one less than Silver Surfer, Doctor Strange and Galactus. Also, this personal cloaking let him and Doom, reach Magus control room undetected, where they were able to make a surprise attack on that occasion. So you got a supreme sorcerer, a cosmic entity and two other cosmic manipulators with cosmic awarness that weren't able to detect him, so I highly doubt any of your teammates are going to be able to do it with their powers.

Now since Kang is undetected by the enemy and even in the remote chance your team manage to can detect them, the shields will be already up preventing him from any kind of attacks that may come, since Kang possess one of the strongest force-fields in comics. Kang possess powefull shields generated by his armor, strong enough to take hits from Thor and even Warrior Madness Thor. The armor also saved Kang from entering the atmosphere when his base was destroyed. Even without the shields, the amor was strong enough to protect Kang from Thor´s hammer blast at point blank range and also hits from Thor himself.

Now, from the rules we have only one limitation for Time Manip:

Time manipulation may only be used to make one's team 2 mach levels above what they normally are

By reading that I assume that Kang can use that benefit to go wherever he wants and bring whatever he wants in 8 hours, which frankly, is more than enough. That means Kang can bring his Damocles base and the sword-shaped ship he used when he conquered Earth. So once with his space ship, Kang will greatly increase his equip, gear and operatives.Basically, this can be interpreted as a simple summoning. Kang can summom gear from the timestream whitout the need go time travel, he can pull it in the middle of a fight if necessary, see here. Of course Kang will also manipulate time to be 2 mach levels above what he normally is, this should cover any reaction speed gap, in the remote possibility of being any.

Bring the Army!

I´m gonna be honest here, Even without his ship or the use of prep, Kang is used to carry his own personal army of robots at disposal. Now imagine with said conditions and the assistance of his ship. Kang will not only bring his clones but also his more advanced creations in the robotics field (area in which he is an expert), with the Growing Man being an example. Kang has used robots in a variety of different ways during the time, like just posing as himself, or acting like copycats who are able to mimic powers, being able to copy the likes of Spider-Man, Vision, Iron-Man and even Thor, the macrobots that were able to punk a good Avengers rooster (Mantis, Scarlett Witch, Iron-man, Vision and Thor!). Here you can see one example of Kang sending the aforementioned Growing Man without prep:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Within 8 hours Kang will also make countless copies of himself and spread them across the battlefield. These aren't exactly random weak copies, since one single Kang copy needed to be defeat by a combination of Vasp, Hercules and Black Knight, who was using his magic sword. Those copies comes with weapons and a personal force-field. They should be enough to take on the Hawks and Aquaman, and keep them occupied, weaken them and maybe even defeat them. The army of clones are being sent continuously from his ship. Keep in mind they will be armed with advanced weapons from 40th century.

The R.I.P ("Rest in Pieces") Plan

Okay so, while your team is busy against the army-bots, Kang will order that his ship starts a crushing atrike against your entire team, this is what the ship is capable of:

First, the ship possess an hologram projector which allowed Kang to own Washington DC, and it can project blasts. Remember this is the same sword-shaped ship he used when he conquered Earth. You may say that the attacks won´t hit the targets, but that´s not true since It can use a selective beam that was able to destroys buildings but spares people. Now I presume you´re going to say that this is not a problem since any of your team members can easily destroy the ship, etc. Well, this ship won´t be destroyed so easily, since it possess it´s own shield that was able to block a nova blast. It took an entire team just to breach the shields.

While all that happens, the real Kang will be off your team's radar, undetected, ready to use his 40th century weaponry to take your team out one by one, the same way he did to subjugate other heroes in the past.

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#39 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: nice.

Prep

1. Martian Manhunter will create a mind-link. This allows the team to get everything they can done in 15 minutes, as they have perfect synergy and knowledge of each others' abilities.

2. Firestorm is going to utilize his (limited) precog just to get an image of the enemy...

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It's just brief flashes of foresight... which will be used to gain an image of Kang the Conqueror and spread it across the battlefield. No knowledge will be gained or anything of the sort; we'll just have an image.

3. In Firestorm 5 (pre-52) it was shown that Firestorm could "see" inside metal and reproduce it, further evidence shown when he transmutes the air around Orion to promethium. He'll do the same with Nth Metal and the material that Aquaman's trident is made out of, giving himself, Aquaman, and Thawne the armor. Thawne will also get a breathing mask.

4. Now fully integrated with each others' powers, everyone other than Thawne and Aquaman will be absorbed into the Firestorm Matrix. This will not be an amalgamation like before, but simply a means of storing the other teammates away in the Matrix so that no harm comes to them. Martian Manhunter will also be able to continue the use of his telepathy, because all minds in the Matrix remain active as shown through every comic book in Firestorm's point of view, as well as in Forever Evil.

5. Aquaman will bring ALL the armies of Atlantis to the battlefield. He'll also flood it, though Firestorm will make pathways on the top for Thawne should flight and a breathing mask be insufficient.

Prep Results

  1. You're now facing three beings and four minds. Thawne can now fly thanks to Nth Metal and has weapons that will harm you and can likely breach your force field (I'll get into that later).
  2. Your army is up against that of Atlantis.
  3. My entire team is EXTREMELY durable and has weapons that can harm you.

Countering Your Plan and Bringing In My Own

Okay so, while your team is busy against the army-bots, Kang will order that his ship starts a crushing atrike against your entire team, this is what the ship is capable of:

First, the ship possess an hologram projector which allowed Kang to own Washington DC, and it can project blasts. Remember this is the same sword-shaped ship he used when he conquered Earth. You may say that the attacks won´t hit the targets, but that´s not true since It can use a selective beam that was able to destroys buildings but spares people. Now I presume you´re going to say that this is not a problem since any of your team members can easily destroy the ship, etc. Well, this ship won´t be destroyed so easily, since it possess it´s own shield that was able to block a nova blast. It took an entire team just to breach the shields.

While all that happens, the real Kang will be off your team's radar, undetected, ready to use his 40th century weaponry to take your team out one by one, the same way he did to subjugate other heroes in the past.

Regarding the blasts, Firestorm will easily absorb them. Aquaman could get out of the way, deflect it with his trident, or ask a shark to take the blast for him. Thawne would evade.

Firestorm could also simply transmute the entire ship into helium.

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Firestorm turns the tesseracts into marshmallow matter. He would do the same to your ship, and to your Kang copies.

Then Martian Manhunter could do a telepathy scan for Kang and find the real one. Firestorm would proceed to teleport us all there, and Thawne would break through your shields with a flurry of Nth Metal/Aquaman's trident weapon strikes. Then he'd stab you, J'onn would incapacitate you with TP, and Firestorm will transmute you. Actually, any order of those 3 attacks would work.

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#40 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007:

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Rebuttals

> Prep Results

1. You're now facing three beings and four minds. Thawne can now fly thanks to Nth Metal and has weapons that will harm you and can likely breach your force field (I'll get into that later).

2. Your army is up against that of Atlantis.http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb6/Enteithegreat/Kang%20the%20Conqueror/Kang-Tech/Tech_transmutatessoil.jpg~original

3. My entire team is EXTREMELY durable and has weapons that can harm you.

  1. That's fine, Kang possess mind-shields so I'm not sure how you manage to get pass that. Your weapons are dangerous but if you can't even detect the enemy, how do you plan to strike the real Kang?
  2. Kang's specialty is too use high tech weapons especially designed to neutralize super human foes and powerful beings. His arm comes with those weapons and their own personal force-field. The fact that he possess prep time and basic knowledge prior to the battle, makes it hard for your team do deal with his army.
  3. Once again, he won't strike your team with regular weaponry. He will bring all resource avaiable to win this war. The fact that you must find the real Kang first further complicates your task.

Battle Schemes

> Blasts

Regarding the blasts, Firestorm will easily absorb them. Aquaman could get out of the way, deflect it with his trident, or ask a shark to take the blast for him. Thawne would evade.

You talk like it was regular energy blasts, it's not. You see, the ship possess a selective beam, so i'm sure Aquaman won't escape it. The others might have ways to avoid. For example, it was able to destroy an entire bulding with one hit, but manage to select each and every person that was inside it.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

> Transmutation

Firestorm could also simply transmute the entire ship into helium. Firestorm turns the tesseracts into marshmallow matter. He would do the same to your ship, and to your Kang copies.

Even at the classic version, Kang's ship already possess transmutation capabilities. I'm sure we can agree that a modern, more experience and resourceful version can do much more. I'm also positive that Kang possess ways to with the given time for preparation and with the prior knowledge that one of the opposing team members possess transmutation, he'd just cook a device especially created to counter it. I've already proved he possess knowledge on this particular subject and has also used it before.

> Telepathy/Mind scanning

Then Martian Manhunter could do a telepathy scan for Kang and find the real one. Firestorm would proceed to teleport us all there, and Thawne would break through your shields with a flurry of Nth Metal/Aquaman's trident weapon strikes. Then he'd stab you, J'onn would incapacitate you with TP, and Firestorm will transmute you. Actually, any order of those 3 attacks would work.

First and foremost, Kang's armor possess a mind-shield which prevents him from telepathy. Second, Kang is hidden from your team thanks to his cloaking shields, this tech is good enough to allow him to hide him and Dr. Doom before from a Sorcerer Supreme (Dr. Strange), Silver Surfer (who packs cosmic awareness) and an Entity (Galactus). Now if Martian Manhunter is your best shot at finding Kang, I'm afraid your team is doomed.

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Avatar image for thenewbluebeetle007
#41 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2

Rebuttals

Battle Schemes

> Blasts

Regarding the blasts, Firestorm will easily absorb them. Aquaman could get out of the way, deflect it with his trident, or ask a shark to take the blast for him. Thawne would evade.

You talk like it was regular energy blasts, it's not. You see, the ship possess a selective beam, so i'm sure Aquaman won't escape it. The others might have ways to avoid. For example, it was able to destroy an entire bulding with one hit, but manage to select each and every person that was inside it.

I don't see a selective beam in the scans you've shown. I see all the people inside a building being placed inside bubbles, then the beam busting the building but being unable to bust through the bubbles (because Kang ordained it so). So I don't think it's as "selective" as you believe.

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> Transmutation

Firestorm could also simply transmute the entire ship into helium. Firestorm turns the tesseracts into marshmallow matter. He would do the same to your ship, and to your Kang copies.

Even at the classic version, Kang's ship already possess transmutation capabilities. I'm sure we can agree that a modern, more experience and resourceful version can do much more. I'm also positive that Kang possess ways to with the given time for preparation and with the prior knowledge that one of the opposing team members possess transmutation, he'd just cook a device especially created to counter it. I've already proved he possess knowledge on this particular subject and has also used it before.

Apologies, but there are many flaws in this contention.

First, the scan shown does not explicitly transmutation. Now, you might respond, "what else could it have been?" Well, it could have been a high powered, focused blast reminiscent of the plutonium-based Trinity nuclear bomb test of 1945. You see, in this instance from real life, the nuclear blast unleashed was so powerful and hot that it made a glass smooth and rather large crater filled with Trinitite. It's entirely possible that the exact same thing was happening in your scan, and because there was no explicit indication that it was transmutation, I believe that I win this point.

However, even if you don't buy that, you can't assume anything in comics. If there are no on-panel feats showing transmutation resistance, then the conjecture is only that - a conjecture.

Lastly,just because you possess transmutation doesn't mean you're immune to it. Let's take the example of telepaths: Martian Manhunter is capable of telepathy, but he's been overwhelmed before.

These 3 anti-counters render your counter invalid. Transmutation is still a feasible option.

> Telepathy/Mind scanning

First and foremost, Kang's armor possess a mind-shield which prevents him from telepathy. Second, Kang is hidden from your team thanks to his cloaking shields, this tech is good enough to allow him to hide him and Dr. Doom before from a Sorcerer Supreme (Dr. Strange), Silver Surfer (who packs cosmic awareness) and an Entity (Galactus). Now if Martian Manhunter is your best shot at finding Kang, I'm afraid your team is doomed.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

You're going to need better feats for the mind shield. As shown below, Martian Manhunter can bypass certain telepathic dampeners due to his prowess in this field. Unless you have feats of blocking out someone who is a superior telepath to J'onn, he will detect you and we will defeat you with one of the three ways I listed above (telepathy, transmutation, Nth Metal/Aquaman's Trident weaponry.

No Caption Provided

And this is New 52 Martian Manhunter, who's significantly less powerful a telepath than Pre-52 J'onn.

Regarding your Silver Surfer / Doctor Strange scan, Strange was able to "locate the reception relay" of Kang. You fooled Surfer's cosmic sense, but this is a completely different superpower than telepathy.

Firestorm has the ability to see across various energy spectrums and can thus sense invisible beings (shown below), and Martian Manhunter and Aquaman have telepathy that they can use to detect you. So I don't think your cloaking tech will be that big of a deal.

No Caption Provided

And even if it did block you from Martian Manhunter, I gave Eobard Thawne flight. Meaning he can easily search the planet for you and report back to us.

Summary

  • Firestorm transmutes your army
  • Martian Manhunter uses his telepathy to find you
  • We transmute/stab/mind-r*pe you to death

@higorm: you're up!

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#42 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007:

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Round 2: The Rebuttals!

The Damocles Base

I don't see a selective beam in the scans you've shown. I see all the people inside a building being placed inside bubbles, then the beam busting the building but being unable to bust through the bubbles (because Kang ordained it so). So I don't think it's as "selective" as you believe.

I believe you made a misinterpretation of what was presented. First there's the strike, the building going down, then you have all those peoples emerging from the rubble. I'm sure I've posted the scans in the correct order so you shouldn't be confused about the right context. This sword-shaped ship is the same one he used when he conquered Earth, take a look at it's capabilities in combat and what it was able to do:

Quick Reminder: it was Kang's son, Marcus, who was operating the shield, Kang appears to save the day :)

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5
  • Scan n. 1: A combination of attacks from a Avengers ship, Jack of Hearts and Monica Rambeau - "if there were air in space to carry sound, the thunder of the attack would be heard worldwide, so great are the energies unleashed here, but even so, the target's force-field holds".
  • Scan n. 2: Scarlet Witch tries to reach the ship's repulsor-blast and tap into the force-field with chaos magicbut it keep shifting in frequency, altering it's energy-structure.
  • Scans 3-4:The Avengers assault start to do some effect, while the ship proceeds to counter it until the shield is finally breached.
  • Scan n. 5: Kang appears with all the tranquility of the world, quickly analyzes the situation applies an effective counter-measure, neutralizing all threats with the paralasys-ray.

As you can see, it's really hard to get pass though the shields. The fact that they took so long to accomplish it while Marcus (far less experienced) was operating only proves that if was Kang in control they would have lost much faster.

> Transmutation

First, the scan shown does not explicitly transmutation.

The scan is very clear, the ray transmuted a wooded area into a glass-smooth, mile-square landing strip, within an instant. I know it's safer to just deny the feat but in this case there's no reason for that.

No Caption Provided

However, even if you don't buy that, you can't assume anything in comics. If there are no on-panel feats showing transmutation resistance, then the conjecture is only that - a conjecture.

Kang has done so many great things with his tech, I'm sure that even without a clear showing we can agree that it's only logical to assume he would have ways to get around transmutation. I say that because for this particular fight he possess 8 hours to prepare for a enemy he already knows that possess transmutation powers. The fact that Kang can duplicate his speed according to the rules indicates that he can perform such task without problem.

Lastly, just because you possess transmutation doesn't mean you're immune to it.

I never said he was immune to it, but I've never seen Kang being affect by transmutation, and since he possess previous knowledge + time to prepare himself against it makes me believe that option would not be valid or enough to put him down.

> Telepathy/Mind scanning

You're going to need better feats for the mind shield. As shown below, Martian Manhunter can bypass certain telepathic dampeners due to his prowess in this field. Unless you have feats of blocking out someone who is a superior telepath to J'onn, he will detect you and we will defeat you with one of the three ways I listed above (telepathy, transmutation, Nth Metal/Aquaman's Trident weaponry.

Soyou question my feat but bring that one to prove MM would be able to find him? Come on.. Are you really trying to compare A.R.G.U.S with Kang's 40th century tech?

I don't have to bring feats from Kang blocking superior telepaths, he fought the likes of Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock, Magus, and more, none of them were able to do anything against him psychic-wise. You must bring feats of J'onn being able to find someone one like him, in the given scenario, because Kang even without prep already possess a mind-shield within his armor, now you add prep and previous knowledge that he's about to fight a telepath.

Regarding your Silver Surfer / Doctor Strange scan, Strange was able to "locate the reception relay" of Kang. You fooled Surfer's cosmic sense, but this is a completely different superpower than telepathy.

First, Kang is using his cloaking shields to hide himself and his base from your team. The scans presented are more than enough.

> can hide his ship over two dimensional planes

No Caption Provided

So Silver Surfer's cosmic awareness and acute senses wasn't capable of locating them:

>

No Caption Provided

Dr. Strange was only capable of receiving a signal from where they were standing without using the cloak device. Once Kang activate it, not even the Sorcerer Supreme being helped by a cosmic being fail to locate them.

Another example of how great is his tech, next scan shows Kang and Doom using personal cloaking units, that let them reach Magus's control room undetected:

>

No Caption Provided

I'm sure the cloaking shields are a big deal, so far you have not presented a convincing argument to let me believe your team will be able to find the real Kang, let alone do anything against him.

I go further ahead because since I have prep, Kang will have his base and his army ready to engage your team. His Damocles base possess a hologram projector which allowed Kang to own Washington DC, and it can project blasts:

>

No Caption Provided

Once the battle starts, all you will see is holograms. And from Kang's ship he can keep sending his army bots one after another:

>

No Caption Provided

Summary

  • Kang and his ship are hidden and out of reach thanks to cloaking shields, attacking your team )with specific weapons) as holograms.
  • MM's telepathy means nothing in comparison to Silver Surfer and Dr. Strange combined. The feat you brough is quite insufficient to prove otherwise.

Your team will enter a battle they can't win since they can't even find the enemy. Kang will conquer this victory!

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#43 Edited by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2

No Caption Provided

Rebuttals

The Damocles Base

I don't see a selective beam in the scans you've shown. I see all the people inside a building being placed inside bubbles, then the beam busting the building but being unable to bust through the bubbles (because Kang ordained it so). So I don't think it's as "selective" as you believe.

I believe you made a misinterpretation of what was presented. First there's the strike, the building going down, then you have all those peoples emerging from the rubble. I'm sure I've posted the scans in the correct order so you shouldn't be confused about the right context.

I'm not confused about anything. I'm just scrutinizing the information presented. Let's take a look:

No Caption Provided

They didn't "get out" of the rubble in the way you're saying. They were evidently shielded by bubbles that were ostensibly Kang's own. The beam was not selective.

This sword-shaped ship is the same one he used when he conquered Earth, take a look at it's capabilities in combat and what it was able to do:

Quick Reminder: it was Kang's son, Marcus, who was operating the shield, Kang appears to save the day :)

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5
  • Scan n. 1: A combination of attacks from a Avengers ship, Jack of Hearts and Monica Rambeau - "if there were air in space to carry sound, the thunder of the attack would be heard worldwide, so great are the energies unleashed here, but even so, the target's force-field holds".
  • Scan n. 2: Scarlet Witch tries to reach the ship's repulsor-blast and tap into the force-field with chaos magicbut it keep shifting in frequency, altering it's energy-structure.
  • Scans 3-4:The Avengers assault start to do some effect, while the ship proceeds to counter it until the shield is finally breached.
  • Scan n. 5: Kang appears with all the tranquility of the world, quickly analyzes the situation applies an effective counter-measure, neutralizing all threats with the paralasys-ray.

As you can see, it's really hard to get pass though the shields. The fact that they took so long to accomplish it while Marcus (far less experienced) was operating only proves that if was Kang in control they would have lost much faster.

Have I ever proposed that I would get past your shields? I've only said we would turn it into marshmallow, which makes your shields insignificant.

> Transmutation

First, the scan shown does not explicitly transmutation.

The scan is very clear, the ray transmuted a wooded area into a glass-smooth, mile-square landing strip, within an instant. I know it's safer to just deny the feat but in this case there's no reason for that.

It doesn't say transmutation. I've already given you a real life example in which land was converted into glass-like material without transmutation, and this was from 1945. It's entirely plausible that this is what happened in the scan you displayed. Observe the use of the word "levelled," which Merriam Webster defines as "to make (a line or surface) horizontal : make flat or level <level a field><level off a house lot>". This has nothing to do with transmutation.

No Caption Provided

However, even if you don't buy that, you can't assume anything in comics. If there are no on-panel feats showing transmutation resistance, then the conjecture is only that - a conjecture.

Kang has done so many great things with his tech, I'm sure that even without a clear showing we can agree that it's only logical to assume he would have ways to get around transmutation. I say that because for this particular fight he possess 8 hours to prepare for a enemy he already knows that possess transmutation powers. The fact that Kang can duplicate his speed according to the rules indicates that he can perform such task without problem.

So essentially what you're saying is that because Kang is smart and has invented stuff he'll be able to invent something unrelated to anything he's ever done before, and integrate it into his ship within 8 hours?

Yeah, that's not going to fly. We can hypothesize all we want but in the end, CaVs come down to feats, which you are suffering from a paucity of.

Lastly, just because you possess transmutation doesn't mean you're immune to it.

I never said he was immune to it, but I've never seen Kang being affect by transmutation, and since he possess previous knowledge + time to prepare himself against it makes me believe that option would not be valid or enough to put him down.

Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy much? Just because it's never happened, doesn't mean it can't or won't. Your counter is based on nothing more than pure speculation.

> Telepathy/Mind scanning

You're going to need better feats for the mind shield. As shown below, Martian Manhunter can bypass certain telepathic dampeners due to his prowess in this field. Unless you have feats of blocking out someone who is a superior telepath to J'onn, he will detect you and we will defeat you with one of the three ways I listed above (telepathy, transmutation, Nth Metal/Aquaman's Trident weaponry.

Soyou question my feat but bring that one to prove MM would be able to find him? Come on.. Are you really trying to compare A.R.G.U.S with Kang's 40th century tech?

No, I'm simply saying that J'onn has bypassed anti-TP tech before, so you'd need proof to show that your anti-telepathy tech is superior. And no, simply saying that Kang is superior in everything so he'll be able to protect against J'onn is not a valid argument - you need to show the feats.

I don't have to bring feats from Kang blocking superior telepaths, he fought the likes of Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock, Magus, and more, none of them were able to do anything against him psychic-wise.

None of them were able to do anything to him psychic wise? Or none of them did anything to him psychic wise? There's a huge difference. If they weren't ABLE to do anything, I'd like to see the scans/feats.

You must bring feats of J'onn being able to find someone one like him, in the given scenario, because Kang even without prep already possess a mind-shield within his armor, now you add prep and previous knowledge that he's about to fight a telepath.

You mean, I must show J'onn finding someone with absolutely no known telepathy resistance whatsoever? Sure, shouldn't be too hard. I'll address it after I finish rebutting everything else.

Regarding your Silver Surfer / Doctor Strange scan, Strange was able to "locate the reception relay" of Kang. You fooled Surfer's cosmic sense, but this is a completely different superpower than telepathy.

First, Kang is using his cloaking shields to hide himself and his base from your team. The scans presented are more than enough.

So Silver Surfer's cosmic awareness and acute senses wasn't capable of locating them:

Dr. Strange was only capable of receiving a signal from where they were standing without using the cloak device. Once Kang activate it, not even the Sorcerer Supreme being helped by a cosmic being fail to locate them.

Another example of how great is his tech, next scan shows Kang and Doom using personal cloaking units, that let them reach Magus's control room undetected:

I'm sure the cloaking shields are a big deal, so far you have not presented a convincing argument to let me believe your team will be able to find the real Kang, let alone do anything against him.

To the contrary, you've shown nothing that says that a simple TP-scan would be insufficient to find him. Martian Manhunter has affected the entire planet with his mental powers, so as long as you're anywhere close, he'll find you.

Cosmic awareness =/= telepathy. They're two different powers altogether. It would be like saying that because you can't see an invisible person, you can't hear them either. No matter how many awareness/tracking feats you have, if you have no explicit telepathy ones, I will detect you.

I go further ahead because since I have prep, Kang will have his base and his army ready to engage your team. His Damocles base possess a hologram projector which allowed Kang to own Washington DC, and it can project blasts:

Once the battle starts, all you will see is holograms. And from Kang's ship he can keep sending his army bots one after another:

Holograms, ships, and bots that will be effortlessly transmuted into marshmallow.

Summary

  • Kang and his ship are hidden and out of reach thanks to cloaking shields, attacking your team )with specific weapons) as holograms.
  • MM's telepathy means nothing in comparison to Silver Surfer and Dr. Strange combined. The feat you brough is quite insufficient to prove otherwise.

Cloaking shields which have no TP resistance. Everything you throw at me can be transmuted.

MM's telepathy is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from Dr. Strange's magic senses and Silver Surfer's cosmic ones. Not to mention, MMH is a superior telepath anyway.

Your team will enter a battle they can win since they can't even find the enemy. Kang will conquer this victory!

I believe I've shown sufficient evidence to say that in fact, Kang's shielding is simply not enough.

Telepathy

Honestly, I don't believe I need to show any of MMH's high end telepathic feats for it to be clear that Kang will be detected and mind-r*ped, considering no clear-cut telepathic resistance was displayed.

But here's a nice feat anyway.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

New 52 MMH telepathically defeats New 52 Despero. While this Despero is not as powerful as his Pre-52 version, it's still an impressive feat in that he incapacitated an opposing telepath for "days or weeks".

Summary

  • Firestorm transmutes your army
  • Martian Manhunter uses his telepathy to find you
  • We transmute/stab/mind-r*pe you to death

Considering your only responses to transmutation and telepathy were that "Kang has invented stuff so I'm sure he'll figure something out," instead of providing concrete feats, this still applies.

@higorm: your turn

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#44 Edited by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio

@thenewbluebeetle007: didn't got the tag, will reply right now.

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Round 3 - Counters & Co.

> Selective Beam

They didn't "get out" of the rubble in the way you're saying. They were evidently shielded by bubbles that were ostensibly Kang's own. The beam was not selective.

Of course they did, what do you call that? They were selected by Kang one by one. He could've destroyed the entire building with people in it but manage to select each one of them to prove his point, the ship did that from his commands. I've also presented scans showing his ship being able to tag multiple targets at once, including Monica Rambeau who in light form possess the speed of light. Those beams are constantly portrayed as being able to hit powerful super beings, such as Wonder Man, in this case he was hit by depower-ray, note how easily he was subdued by Kang's army after the hit. Same will happen here against your team.

>

No Caption Provided

> Transmutation

Have I ever proposed that I would get past your shields? I've only said we would turn it into marshmallow, which makes your shields insignificant.

You have yet to prove me how your team will manage to:

  1. Find Kang as his ship that are hidden from your team in two dimensional portals;
  2. Deal with Kang's army that includes countless robots and even sentinels in from of holograms;
  3. Avoid all sorts of high tech weaponry especially designed to neutralize superhuman foes like yours.

It doesn't say transmutation. I've already given you a real life example in which land was converted into glass-like material without transmutation, and this was from 1945. It's entirely plausible that this is what happened in the scan you displayed. Observe the use of the word "levelled," which Merriam Webster defines as "to make (a line or surface) horizontal : make flat or level <level a field><level off a house lot>". This has nothing to do with transmutation.

You can discredit all you want but for me it still counts as transmutation, so I'll leave this for the voters to decide. Kang has faced so many different foes, with so many different powers, being able to overcome each one of them with the use of prep and high end technology. I'm sure that someone that comes from the future will be aware of transmutation, especially in this situation where he possess prior knowledge and have time to prepare himself against it.

So essentially what you're saying is that because Kang is smart and has invented stuff he'll be able to invent something unrelated to anything he's ever done before, and integrate it into his ship within 8 hours? Yeah, that's not going to fly. We can hypothesize all we want but in the end, CaVs come down to feats, which you are suffering from a paucity of.

There are not manycharacter like Firestorm at the Marvel Universe, the closest I can think of is Silver Surfer, who possess matter control thanks to the Power Cosmic, which grants him total mastery of the four fundamental forces of nature, and he's someone Kang faced in the past, this is what happened when they fought:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

As you can see, Silver couldn't do much against him, but in return Kang was able to hurt him with his weapon. I'm sure he can deliver something similar to neutralize Firestorm in this scenario.

Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy much? Just because it's never happened, doesn't mean it can't or won't. Your counter is based on nothing more than pure speculation.

So is yours, your best feat was Firestorm transmuting a static object, not much close to what he is facing here. Silver Surfer, despite having the power to transmute things, couldn't do much against him. You must take into consideration that they are fighting a enemy who is already expecting them, knows about their powers and had time to prepare for said powers, it makes all the difference. History tell us that Kang with prep is a very though guy to beat.

Holograms, ships, and bots that will be effortlessly transmuted into marshmallow.

How can you transmute a hologram? Thor wasn't able to even touch it with his magical hammer.

>

No Caption Provided

> Telepathy/Mind-Scanning/Mind-rape

No, I'm simply saying that J'onn has bypassed anti-TP tech before, so you'd need proof to show that your anti-telepathy tech is superior. And no, simply saying that Kang is superior in everything so he'll be able to protect against J'onn is not a valid argument - you need to show the feats.

Do I really need to prove Kang's 40th century tech is superior to A.R.G.U.S tech? Really?!

Let me guess, which one is superior, advanced tech from the future which helped Kang conquer Earth, the Sh'iar empire, among others, or a tech from the 21th century, whose best feats is to create psychic dampeners that was insufficient to block a weaker version of MMH in comparison to the original one? Hm.. hard choice, but I'll take Kang.

None of them were able to do anything to him psychic wise? Or none of them did anything to him psychic wise? There's a huge difference. If they weren't ABLE to do anything, I'd like to see the scans/feats.

They did not do anything because they didn't bother trying, Silver Surfer possess cosmic awareness, which allows him to be capable of knowing a person's location when nearby or able to detect his enemies weaknesses. Don't you think that if he had the information that Kang packs no defense against TP assaults, he would have tried it? Come on.. Same applies to others..

Next scans shows Kang and Dr. Doom with cloaking units reaching Magus's (anoter one with cosmic awareness) control room undetected. Later they go up against Magus and Adam Warlock. Just remember that Magus was the one with cosmic energy powers sufficient to defeat the pre-resurrection Thanos in personal combat.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

You mean, I must show J'onn finding someone with absolutely no known telepathy resistance whatsoever? Sure, shouldn't be too hard. I'll address it after I finish rebutting everything else.

No, someone like Kang who possess high tech and previous protection against telepathy, previous knowledge he's up against a telepath and time to prepare himself against it.

To the contrary, you've shown nothing that says that a simple TP-scan would be insufficient to find him. Martian Manhunter has affected the entire planet with his mental powers, so as long as you're anywhere close, he'll find you.

Silver Surfer and Dr. Strange, both of them possess high end telepathy, also capable of affecting an entire planet, but yet, neither of them were able to locate Kang when Kang knew about their presence in advance, having time to aplly a countermeasure, same setting of this battle. If Kang doesn't want to be found he won't be found. You're gonna need more then that.

> Stabbing

flurry of Nth Metal/Aquaman's trident weapon strikes. Then he'd stab you,

Yeah that would be great, but unfortunately for you, Kang has ways to avoid those kind of strikes. He can easily ignore or block them the same way he did to thor's hammer:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

In short

  1. Battle starts, your team is targeted by Kang's army, shooting all sorts of high tech weaponry designed to neutralize super human beings;
  2. Kang and his ship hidden from your team uses holograms to increase the firepower, he can wipe the area your team is located with one single blast.
  3. Your team can't even find Kang and his ship. You can't compare a weaker version of Martian Manhunter to the likes of Silver Surfer and Classic Dr. Strange.

Avatar image for thenewbluebeetle007
#45 Posted by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: nice.

Do you think that after I post, one more round would be sufficient to finish this thing up?

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#46 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Edited by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 3

No Caption Provided

Rebuttals

> Selective Beam

They didn't "get out" of the rubble in the way you're saying. They were evidently shielded by bubbles that were ostensibly Kang's own. The beam was not selective.

Of course they did, what do you call that? They were selected by Kang one by one. He could've destroyed the entire building with people in it but manage to select each one of them to prove his point, the ship did that from his commands. I've also presented scans showing his ship being able totag multiple targets at once, including Monica Rambeau who in light form possess the speed of light. Those beams are constantly portrayed as being able to hit powerful super beings, such as Wonder Man, in this case he was hit by depower-ray, note how easily he was subdued by Kang's army after the hit. Same will happen here against your team.

This is getting confusing. I believe that Firestorm could absorb the blast or teleport away, Thawne could easily run away, and Aquaman could deflect it with his trident (which is made out of a material that hurt Darkseid). So it's inconsequential.

>

No Caption Provided

> Transmutation

Have I ever proposed that I would get past your shields? I've only said we would turn it into marshmallow, which makes your shields insignificant.

You have yet to prove me how your team will manage to:

  1. Find Kang as his ship that are hidden from your team in two dimensional portals;
  2. Deal with Kang's army that includes countless robots and even sentinels in from of holograms;
  3. Avoid all sorts of high tech weaponry especially designed to neutralize superhuman foes like yours.

1. Martian Manhunter will utilize telepathy to locate Kang.

2. Transmutation will easily take care of your army. Firestorm has transmuted mountains and asteroids; an army shouldn't be a problem. Regarding holograms, we simply won't engage them. We don't need to defeat them; we only need to defeat the real Kang.

It doesn't say transmutation. I've already given you a real life example in which land was converted into glass-like material without transmutation, and this was from 1945. It's entirely plausible that this is what happened in the scan you displayed. Observe the use of the word "levelled," which Merriam Webster defines as "to make (a line or surface) horizontal : make flat or level <level a field><level off a house lot>". This has nothing to do with transmutation.

You can discredit all you want but for me it still counts as transmutation, so I'll leave this for the voters to decide. Kang has faced so many different foes, with so many different powers, being able to overcome each one of them with the use of prep and high end technology. I'm sure that someone that comes from the future will be aware of transmutation, especially in this situation where he possess prior knowledge and have time to prepare himself against it.

Yes, let us have the voters decide on whether to vote on assumptions or feats.

So essentially what you're saying is that because Kang is smart and has invented stuff he'll be able to invent something unrelated to anything he's ever done before, and integrate it into his ship within 8 hours? Yeah, that's not going to fly. We can hypothesize all we want but in the end, CaVs come down to feats, which you are suffering from a paucity of.

There are not manycharacter like Firestorm at the Marvel Universe, the closest I can think of is Silver Surfer, who possess matter control thanks to the Power Cosmic, which grants him total mastery of the four fundamental forces of nature, and he's someone Kang faced in the past, this is what happened when they fought:

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As you can see, Silver couldn't do much against him, but in return Kang was able to hurt him with his weapon. I'm sure he can deliver something similar to neutralize Firestorm in this scenario.

Kang will be hard pressed to fend off Eobard Thawne with the special weaponry that we have. How will he focus on Firestorm?

Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy much? Just because it's never happened, doesn't mean it can't or won't. Your counter is based on nothing more than pure speculation.

So is yours, your best feat was Firestorm transmuting a static object, not much close to what he is facing here. Silver Surfer, despite having the power to transmute things, couldn't do much against him. You must take into consideration that they are fighting a enemy who is already expecting them, knows about their powers and had time to prepare for said powers, it makes all the difference. History tell us that Kang with prep is a very though guy to beat.

If you want feats of Firestorm transmuting an object in motion, I can give it to you. I'll post it after these spoilers.

Holograms, ships, and bots that will be effortlessly transmuted into marshmallow.

How can you transmute a hologram? Thor wasn't able to even touch it with his magical hammer.

We don't have to engage the holograms. If we just find Kang (who is away from your army) and beat him, we win.

In addition, the very definition of hologram indicates that the scans you showed weren't holograms, but merely intangible robots or something of the sort. Holograms can't affect anything in this world. So Firestorm can still transmute them if need be.

>

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> Telepathy/Mind-Scanning/Mind-rape

No, I'm simply saying that J'onn has bypassed anti-TP tech before, so you'd need proof to show that your anti-telepathy tech is superior. And no, simply saying that Kang is superior in everything so he'll be able to protect against J'onn is not a valid argument - you need to show the feats.

Do I really need to prove Kang's 40th century tech is superior to A.R.G.U.S tech? Really?!

Let me guess, which one is superior, advanced tech from the future which helped Kang conquer Earth, the Sh'iar empire, among others, or a tech from the 21th century, whose best feats is to create psychic dampeners that was insufficient to block a weaker version of MMH in comparison to the original one? Hm.. hard choice, but I'll take Kang.

Listen, the point of the scan was not to compare ARGUS to Kang. It was to show that Martian Manhunter can bypass telepathic dampeners, unless they're very powerful (which would require feats, something you haven't shown in regards to telepathy).

None of them were able to do anything to him psychic wise? Or none of them did anything to him psychic wise? There's a huge difference. If they weren't ABLE to do anything, I'd like to see the scans/feats.

They did not do anything because they didn't bother trying, Silver Surfer possess cosmic awareness, which allows him to be capable of knowing a person's location when nearby or able to detect his enemies weaknesses. Don't you think that if he had the information that Kang packs no defense against TP assaults, he would have tried it? Come on.. Same applies to others..

Blatant assumption here. Silver Surfer's cosmic awareness is very inconsistent. If we look at Annihilators Volume 1, Issue 1-2, the Annihilators face a man named Dredd. Dredd faces Surfer one on one and defeats him.

Then, a few pages later, Dredd is defeated by Ronan, who used transmutation. So ostensibly, Surfer's awareness is far from infallible, and a more effective feat needs to be shown on your part.

Next scans shows Kang and Dr. Doom with cloaking units reaching Magus's (anoter one with cosmic awareness) control room undetected. Later they go up against Magus and Adam Warlock. Just remember that Magus was the one with cosmic energy powers sufficient to defeat the pre-resurrection Thanos in personal combat.

This isn't necessarily telepathic resistance. It just shows that he is undetectable by the conventional means of looking with one's eyes and by cosmic awareness. Unless you show me a scan that says that his mind shield is capable of holding out against the Martian Manhunter, he will be detected.

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You mean, I must show J'onn finding someone with absolutely no known telepathy resistance whatsoever? Sure, shouldn't be too hard. I'll address it after I finish rebutting everything else.

No, someone like Kang who possess high tech and previous protection against telepathy, previous knowledge he's up against a telepath and time to prepare himself against it.

What protection? I haven't seen any.

To the contrary, you've shown nothing that says that a simple TP-scan would be insufficient to find him. Martian Manhunter has affected the entire planet with his mental powers, so as long as you're anywhere close, he'll find you.

Silver Surfer and Dr. Strange, both of them possess high end telepathy, also capable of affecting an entire planet, but yet, neither of them were able to locate Kang when Kang knew about their presence in advance, having time to aplly a countermeasure, same setting of this battle. If Kang doesn't want to be found he won't be found. You're gonna need more then that.

Just because they possess telepathy doesn't mean that they used it, nor does it display resistance on Kang's part. Allow me to demonstrate with an example.

In Infinite Crisis, Superboy Prime defeated Martian Manhunter. By your logic, this would make Prime immune to all of MMH's powers, including telepathy, telekinesis, and phasing.

> Stabbing

flurry of Nth Metal/Aquaman's trident weapon strikes. Then he'd stab you,

Yeah that would be great, but unfortunately for you, Kang has ways to avoid those kind of strikes. He can easily ignore or block them the same way he did to thor's hammer:

And do you have any proof that he could react to Thawne in the same way? Thawne is MANY times faster than Mjolnir.

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In short

  1. Battle starts, your team is targeted by Kang's army, shooting all sorts of high tech weaponry designed to neutralize super human beings;
  2. Kang and his ship hidden from your team uses holograms to increase the firepower, he can wipe the area your team is located with one single blast.
  3. Your team can't even find Kang and his ship. You can't compare a weaker version of Martian Manhunter to the likes of Silver Surfer and Classic Dr. Strange.

1. Once Martian Manhunter realizes with his telepathy that Kang isn't present, he'll mentally tell Thawne and Firestorm, who will get out of there and teleport Aquaman and himself out of there, respectively.

2. You'd need better feats of mental resistance to say that MMH couldn't detect you.

3. Weaker version? I have Composite. I'm not saying J'onn would defeat Surfer or Strange in combat, but neither Norrin nor Strange used telepathy in the scans presented, rendering the feat inapplicable in this battle.

How Team Brightest Day Locates Kang

Scenario A: Telepathy

Now, my opponent claims that because Kang has a mindshield and because both Dr. Strange and the Silver Surfer were unable to detect Kang, Team Brightest Day won't be able to either.

I countered this by pointing out the lack of telepathy in the scan, displaying that a lack of blatant telepathy (as well as a lack of telepathy feats for Strange and Surfer) allows Martian Manhunter to detect Kang.

To further reinforce this point, allow me to show instances of J'onn's prodigious prowess in the field of mental powers.

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Martian Manhunter is a casual planetary telepath. Here, he scans the minds of everyone on Earth.

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We also see that Manhunter is able to enter the minds of powerful beings - here he does it to the reality warper Doctor Destiny, who is capable of creating alternate realities, turning nightmares into reality, driving everyone on Earth mad etc.

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This is the final telepathy feat that I will show. In this scan, Martian Manhunter mind-wipes the entire Justice League. While this may not seem very significant at first, observe that this incarnation of the JLA included Green Lantern Kyle Rayner. Like Kang, Kyle possesses an extremely advanced piece of tech (more advanced than Kang, I'd wager), which provides telepathy resistance. However, J'onn effortlessly uses telepathy against him.

I believe these feats are enough to show that Martian Manhunter could detect Kang. But even if you (the voters) don't buy that for some silly reason, I have another way of detecting the real Kang!

Scenario B: Scour the Planet with Thawne

Eobard Thawne, the Reverse Flash, has consistently been faster than Barry Allen. He's multiple times the speed of light.

So he could easily search the Earth (and the skies) with his superspeed and newfound flight powers (thanks to Nth Metal armor), finding Kang and defeating him with weaponry that has hurt Darkseid, a being far more durable than Kang.

Summary

  • You've failed to show that Kang could hold out against transmutation, telepathy, or Eobard Thawne and his weapons if we were to find you. Thus, if I show that my team has viable ways of detecting Kang, then I believe I should win.
  • After Martian Manhunter, using his telepathy, detects Kang and finds that he is somewhere else, the entire team will head there. We don't need to defeat Kang's holograms and army; only Kang must be put down.
  • After we find Kang, Eobard Thawne will kill him with Nth Metal/Trident, Martian Manhunter will mind-r*pe him, and Firestorm will transmute him.

@higorm: final round, let's wrap this up!

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#48 Posted by HigorM (8816 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by zeezee123 (2894 posts) - - Show Bio

Is Kang from Marvel or DC?

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#50 Edited by TheNewBlueBeetle007 (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: no, I get one more after you post. You went first so naturally I should get to finish.

Is Kang from Marvel or DC?

Marvel