@death2heretics: they didn't create just the multiverse. They made all of creation, which includes things outside the Multiverse. As for scans, well I'd have to look for them. But they have other feats, like Lucifer taking the big bang which made all of creation 3 times, and shattering a dimension that had every past universe and timeline just by standing in it
Anyone who thinksthat featherine solos DC obviously loves wanking her a lot she is almost becoming one punch man in terms of wank
What do you mean? and that is not a fair comparison to be honest. featherine isn't even popular and requires a proper grasp of when they cry and cosmology to gauge her power
Honestly, if Michael and Lucifer's best feat is creating a multiverse while using their powers together, then they won't even be able to beat someone like Beatrice or Battler, let alone Featherine.
Dont know who featherine is but Lucifer and Michael together have the power of the presence
Sounds pretty suspect . . . you know:
The fact that the Presence can erase all three Archangels pretty casually leads me to believe that they aren't. And since both Michael and Lucifer have been shown to have limits, and therefore not omnipotent, two non-omnipotents cant equal an omnipotent being.
@stellaris: Michael's power to create has no limits, Lucifers will has no limits. Michael's only limit is he cant shape his power, Lucifer can shape it but he cant create it, and the presence made them to take his place eventually. They both have aspects of a true God on their own but together they have the same power as one
Michael's power to create has no limits, Lucifers will has no limits.
Both of these are wildly untrue and inaccurate, but since you made the claim provide the evidence. If not, Ill gladly debunk.
Michael's only limit is he cant shape his power, Lucifer can shape it but he cant create it
>Has no limits >Totally has limits
Top kek. You literally just told me what I told you, both Michael and Lucifer have limits, therefore they cant be put together to equal an omnipotent being.
and the presence made them to take his place eventually
Scans?
They both have aspects of a true God on their own but together they have the same power as one
The Presence was able to casually unmake them, so I find that hard to believe. Literally none of their feats come close to replicating the Presences even with full hyperbole.
@ovy7: their best feats are moving in and comprehending the void which is basically beyond all dimensions,it transcends infinity, its a dimensionless and boundless place
And the endless admit to be no match for them, the endless are over infinite dimensional beings that are beyond concepts
Plus all what lucifer needs to do is erase the memory device the instant they meet featherine, how will they know about the memory device at the same instant? They are nigh omniscient, she will become a defenseless vegetable
@shrektheogrepotent: their best feats are moving in and comprehending the void which is basically beyond all dimensions,it transcends infinity, its a dimensionless and boundless place beyond concepts
That sounds like something voyagers are capable of.
And Voyagers are fodder to Featherine.
how will they know about the memory device at the same instant? They are nigh omniscient,
He may be "nigh" omniscient...in his own setting.
Lambdadelta even states that Featherine is fully aware and won't allow anyone to act on it.
@shrektheogrepotent: their best feats are moving in and comprehending the void which is basically beyond all dimensions,it transcends infinity, its a dimensionless and boundless place beyond concepts
That sounds like something voyagers are capable of.
And Voyagers are fodder to Featherine.
how will they know about the memory device at the same instant? They are nigh omniscient,
He may be "nigh" omniscient...in his own setting.
Lambdadelta even states that Featherine is fully aware and won't allow anyone to act on it.
Darn it, 1 hour too late! Good job as always, kilgpmktra!
Also, Erika 'survived' the Sea of Nothingness and came back, and she's just a normal Witch here (so Territory Lord tier).
Michael and Lucifer are difficult to scale because they get more powerful depending on what appears to be (according to what I hear) multiversal power up retcons for things lesser powerful than the brothers and the entire DC cosmology, like Destiny being on top of the current DC cosmology. Reading up early Sandman comics and analysis from other Vertigo fans, it appears Michael and Lucy really were supposed to be just complex universe level (1 universe with sub realms) at the earlier stories, but the story didn't focus on power levels because it was a mature and deep story about a powerful being, being casual. Only later did they become ambiguously multiversal because DC's cosmology and abstracts became more complex. That's just my two cents.
It's kind of weird how M Carey implied that Dream of the Endless indirectly CREATED the Presence and the Brothers and Dream VIA human desire for a God and connecting them to Dream of a Thousand Cats (which is a great read) but it begs the question as to why Dream is below Prescence. LOL
The only way Michael and Lucifer have against Magic Featherine is based around High End interpretation of the brothers that is based around OUTERVERSALIST feat skipping interpretation that is also applied for Hadou Gods.
Which implies, Michael and Lucifer make dimensions irrelevant to them at high Nigh Omnipotent/N.O. level just because they have Omnilock feats of leaving Creation and surviving the Void.
The best Michael and Lucifer can do at that level of power is to put a scratch on Featherine's head device. According to what I hear, Featherine will turn into Hanyuu if that happens and it might BFR/confuse Featherine. But that's an ambiguous chance and we're only using ONE way to scale the brothers in this perspective.
The only way Michael and Lucifer have against Magic Featherine is based around High End interpretation of the brothers that is based around OUTERVERSALIST feat skipping interpretation that is also applied for Hadou Gods.
Which implies, Michael and Lucifer make dimensions irrelevant to them at high Nigh Omnipotent/N.O. level just because they have Omnilock feats of leaving Creation and surviving the Void.
Why does that give them such a rating? Leaving creation, existing and surviving the "void" does not=featherine's level
Saying they can do something to her solely based off of that is sort of stepping into NLF territory.
What suggests Featherine turns into Hanyuu when Hanyuu is a much lesser character in comparison to Featherine who is a transcendental being? In the manga (as short/cute story) Featherine's memory "aid" device was removed but she still remained Featherine. She just acted stupid. So I don't know what they're truly trying to suggest with it, but the description is too vague.
@ovy7 I thought from your perspective, I was doing a poor job all this time tbh. Thanks man! Same to you :)
@ovy7 I thought from your perspective, I was doing a poor job all this time tbh. Thanks man! Same to you :)
Dude, you are waaaaaay better than me at this in those type of threads. I just post short comments summarizing the Umi characters, but you are posting in-depth feats with scans and explanations of the cosmology. You were always doing a better job than me man! :)
The only way Michael and Lucifer have against Magic Featherine is based around High End interpretation of the brothers that is based around OUTERVERSALIST feat skipping interpretation that is also applied for Hadou Gods.
Which implies, Michael and Lucifer make dimensions irrelevant to them at high Nigh Omnipotent/N.O. level just because they have Omnilock feats of leaving Creation and surviving the Void.
Why does that give them such a rating? Leaving creation, existing and surviving the "void" does not=featherine's level
Saying they can do something to her solely based off of that is sort of stepping into NLF territory.
What suggests Featherine turns into Hanyuu when Hanyuu is a much lesser character in comparison to Featherine who is a transcendental being? In the manga (as short/cute story) Featherine's memory "aid" device was removed but she still remained Featherine. She just acted stupid. So I don't know what they're truly trying to suggest with it, but the description is too vague.
@ovy7 I thought from your perspective, I was doing a poor job all this time tbh. Thanks man! Same to you :)
I don't even know what level or rating the Brothers are on in the first place, because as I said, there is a case to think that they're just complex universe and multi-universe and are not even multiversal because of M. Carey's rather ambiguous definition of Multiverse. Michael and Lucifer could probably not be more powerful than Alien X, Altair from Re:Creators and are probably just only autonomously Omnipotent at just a complex universe scale. If Marvel Con arguments against the brothers is true, this thread should not exist.
There are many ways to erroneously or not erroneously rate the brothers.
I agree that surviving dimensionless Voids as an Omnilock does not put you at Featherine's level, but it does imply that they can survive without the existence of spatial dimensions..... Even though Michael and Lucifer can get wounded and bleed for some reason and inhabit 3 dimensional humanoid bodies for some reason. Now what that IMPLIES is depending on model of extra-dimensional character scaling. In my opinion, that's an Omnilock feat. A DEFENSIVE feat, not an Output Warping feat at all, but since Featherine regularly deals with Void surviving characters, it is dubiously useful if at all.
When I imply "the only chance" I mean that the only way that Michael and Lucifer can have a chance against Featherine is VIA HIGH END INTERPRETATION which I don't agree with. Usually, like VSBattles does it, and I don't agree with this reasoning for this rating, they think Michael and Lucifer are 1A (Outerversal Nigh Omnipotent) because they exist outside creation and can manipulate all of DC's infinite dimensions from the outside with the power of the Presence (Is this Presence in Sandman as strong as GEB?) thus putting them at JUST 1 tier below Featherine's level. Now, pay attention, I don't necessarily agree with this. As I say, I think Michael and Lucifer being only high universe or low multiverse level is more credible at the moment and I don't really accept scaling logic of scaling Michael and Lucifer to characters presumably below them as a reliable concept all that too well.
In reality Michael and Lucifer don't really have power either no matter how you look at it, because they're just vessels of copies of Presence's Nigh Omnipotence (existence of GEB debunks Presence is Omnipotent) depending on if you accept Sandman comics as seriously canon to Mainstream DC. So really, the key with Michael and Lucifer and their power is that the credibility of their power is entirely dependent on the ambiguous Omnipotent/Nigh Omnipotence of the Prescence since Presence is the source of Mikey/Lucy's power credibility. What's worse is that Presence in Sandman was probably created by Dreams ambiguously. Unless we ignore all that and cover our ears.
So in conclusion. I imply that the best chance the brothers have is VIA maxwank highest end interpretation for Michael and Lucifer which is the whole Outerversal FEAT SKIPPING logic which implies, a character is Outerversal, therefore they're high multiversal+ and are at Featherine's level just because and fuck feats. Which is the NLF you're saying you're critiquing which is why and how VSBATTLES rates Michael and Lucifer at Outerversal. I don't agree with this rating nor do I agree with the whole Outerversal rating concept, but it is the rating in which Michael and Lucifer have the best chance against Featherine.
Any alternative interpretation and level rating of power Michael and Lucifer below their Outerversal Nigh Omnipotent Presence backing power would get stomped by Featherine. Because at the moment, Presence does not have too much credibility behind even how "Nigh Omnipotent" he is. Considering he couldn't zap Trigon out of existence when he could have as a dog and was "shaped" by external forces and dreams.
Oh, I heard from other Umineko folks that Featherine is a higher level existence version of Hanyuu due to Hanyuu's device having a scratch on her left horn which made Featherine turn into another personality at that moment. I don't really get it, but hey, since what you said happened in the Manga, I guess that discounts it.
Featherine's device head dependency or weakness is ambiguous because her Human Avatar in Umineko HAS NO DEVICE ON HER HEAD for some reason. Which gave me the implication that Featherine doesn't really need the device on her head, IDK.
The best Michael and Lucifer can do at that level of power is to put a scratch on Featherine's head device. According to what I hear, Featherine will turn into Hanyuu if that happens and it might BFR/confuse Featherine. But that's an ambiguous chance and we're only using ONE way to scale the brothers in this perspective.
Actually, the more I was thinking about this, is there actually any chance Michael and Lucifer can reach the dimensional bounds of Featherine? While true that Lucifer and Michael are dimensionless beings, Featherine is far above an infinite heirarchy of witches (some of who are considered already far above Michael and Lucifer, which in itself infinite in difference). That being said, even at their strongest, Michael and Lucifer won't even be able to scratch Featherine's head device even if they combine their powers.
Worst Featherine might feel would be a breeze, but that would be it. Since Lucifer and Michael are not omnipotent characters, they have no defense against Featherine's ability to lolretcon them on the spot if she wishes, and Lucifer and Michael have not displayed the feats to resist doing so. (In fact, Featherine has shown the ability to kill someone of their power level and above brutally, bring them back to life, kill them again, over and over again until she pleases)
This is a horribly one-sided massacre. It should be locked IMHO. Only character(s) that could be pitted against Featherine fairly would be Hajun, Elder God Demonbane, and most likely Yog-Sothoth, but I'm not going to fill in a debate in any of those.
The best Michael and Lucifer can do at that level of power is to put a scratch on Featherine's head device. According to what I hear, Featherine will turn into Hanyuu if that happens and it might BFR/confuse Featherine. But that's an ambiguous chance and we're only using ONE way to scale the brothers in this perspective.
Actually, the more I was thinking about this, is there actually any chance Michael and Lucifer can reach the dimensional bounds of Featherine? While true that Lucifer and Michael are dimensionless beings, Featherine is far above an infinite heirarchy of witches (some of who are considered already far above Michael and Lucifer, which in itself infinite in difference). That being said, even at their strongest, Michael and Lucifer won't even be able to scratch Featherine's head device even if they combine their powers.
Worst Featherine might feel would be a breeze, but that would be it. Since Lucifer and Michael are not omnipotent characters, they have no defense against Featherine's ability to lolretcon them on the spot if she wishes, and Lucifer and Michael have not displayed the feats to resist doing so. (In fact, Featherine has shown the ability to kill someone of their power level and above brutally, bring them back to life, kill them again, over and over again until she pleases)
This is a horribly one-sided massacre. It should be locked IMHO. Only character(s) that could be pitted against Featherine fairly would be Hajun, Elder God Demonbane, and most likely Yog-Sothoth, but I'm not going to fill in a debate in any of those.
Highballed Interpreted Michael and Lucifer (power key is to presume Presence is Omnipotent) are not Omnipotent, but they are merely vessels of half-copies or transfers of the power of the Presence which is their form of Nigh-Omnipotence. Meaning, the credibility of their power entirely depends on Presence legitimacy to scholastic/true omnipotence. Which means, Michael and Lucifer are not Omnipotent, but if we use highballed but not totally disproven means of estimating their power level, they are a form of OMNIPOTENT PROXIES. That's why I keep talking about the Presence at best around here.
Michael and Lucifer are only dimensionless in the sense that they have OMNILOCK survivability capabilities, meaning they can exist outside of Creations and exist independent of time, space, matter, etc. but they still have physical bodies with organs that can bleed blood still and they can feel physical pain, look what Dream did to Lucifer's wings for one... not a very dimensionless feat... which is confusing. In fact, a lot of Comic Multiversals, Nigh Omnipotents, Quasi Omnipotent characters have physical bodies and are described as vessels of energy based power, as a result, they usually suffer against their Japanese fiction counterparts whose power writing are written differently with superior power access and power security.
You also have to understand, that this is not Michael and Lucifer at their strongest I'm talking about, I'm talking about highballed interpretation. There are arguments that put that Presence in Vertigo is probably not the same as in DC, and we know Presence in Vertigo was killed and was shaped by things outside. Michael and Lucifer by most intellectually reliable understanding do not stand against Featherine at all, but only if put a bunch of petty excuses to Presence's lack of credibility to his Omnipotence that basically puts legitimacy to the power of the brothers would they have a chance which is not credible in on itself.
As for the characters you mentioned.... The power level of Elder God Demonbane is grievously exaggerated with many contradicting information about the character depending on the EGDB backer you're talking to. But I've argued about Demonbane so much, I've lost all will to discuss that mecha character. Biggest feat in Demonbaneverse is Multiversal, but my understanding, Featherine lolfodders that tier like daisy.
Yog-Sothoth's only chance at taking on Featherine is if we include sources of feats beyond OG Lovecraft's writing which includes any fanfiction that is just as valid as any Extended Author source since Yoggy is a public fiction character and anyone can interpret his power to be whatever you want, even him being just an aspect of Azathoth according to some interpretation which might make him even Omnipotent. Lovecraft is a fictional work that is nigh-pointless and nigh-meaningless to ever discuss in any debate for stuff like this.
Hajun's power is totally dependent on the credibility and face value of Taikyoku's Metaphysical features, which Hajun as I undertand has Imeasurable or Infinite Taikyoku values, which I believe to be a power source for Hadou Gods, since many believe it to be an Author-Fiat concept. But Outerversal claims of power are always iffy to me, not just Michael and Lucifer.
The problem with Hajun vs Featherine is that Featherine is so powerful, that being more powerful than her proves Omnipotence which is why the God in Umineko is so legitimately Omnipotent, that even some from the "NO TRUE OMNIPOTENCE IN FICTION" crowd think that Umineko God is Omnipotent as I've seen here and there. Hajun has no Omnipotent in his verse for us to properly scale how he would fair against an "Omnipotent-1" character like Featherine.
The thing is, Featherine SURPASSES vertical infinity power tiers as you say, on the other hand, Hajun's power is only basically Infinite times of Taikyoku. That means Hajun depends on infinity while Featherine surpasses infinity altogether. Who's going to win between a Goddess like Featherine who surpasses Infinity against Hajun whose power is just Infinity dependent? You know what I'm saying?
The only non-Omnipotent characters capable of standing up to Featherine are those close in power to Omnipotence Proxy (Omnipotent Backing)...
That's already pushing it. Joking around with Presence and Elaine is already a little too much.
Michael and Lucifer throughHighball scaling of course, are still very much a potential threat to Featherine, and might continue to become so in the future.
Because the Presence and the Demiurgic Angels (through unified DC/Vertigo cosmology power) constantly get more and more powerful every time DC retcons its cosmology to become bigger and bigger and everything Mikey/Lucy are strongly established to be superior to get stronger implied power status in implied Multiversal power. These Hierarchy Buffs and Scales, nobody asked for and nobody expected it. Given CAS Supes power to scale to boot.
Since and after Grant Morrison, DC's Cosmology became somewhat bigger (if you highball it) than Marvel's in a horizontal expansion due to Hypertime and Metaverses. Of which, Destiny of the Endless transcends over.
Dream of the Endless just recently got a powerbuff when we found out that a mere aspect of him is implied to be a Multiversal Eldritch Horror.
And Dream and Destiny are way above Cosmic Armor Superman and Mandrakk whose hands dwarfs the Limbo which dwarfs possibly multiple, if not hundreds or maybe infinite Metaverses that are theoretically bigger than Infinite Dimensonal Multiverse where its universes expand into multiverses and megaverses every nanosecond. and CAS Supes power is based on the Story of Superman's popularity and ability to adapt. By Cosmic Status, these two guys are probably Beyonder level threats.
And Lucifer and Michael transcends all those guys by back story classical tiering by MILES unimaginable, perhaps infinite due to them being a tool of DC's God (with multiple aspects) and Michael constantly renewing Creation. And Grant Morrison implied that Primal Monitor/Presence/Source are all the same and any DC knowledgable knows that as far as non-Omnipotent characters ago, that character composite is ridiculously powerful.
We already know that in the last comics of Lucy, Lucifer casually moves between Multiverses and Voids and that Lucifer is capable of venturing deep into the Primal Monitor's void which would kill the likes of Mandrakk and CAS Supes (as I read) who are High Multiversals, all of it are described as Creation and attributed to Presence's Creation.
The fact is, Highball Scaled Lucifer and Michae l will still get defeated by Featherine, but if I become honest with myself, it's not gonna be a stomp, maybe mid-dif.... The thing is Lucifer and Michael don't fight a lot on panel, but their status way above the cosmology and hierarchy is what makes their a little more backboned than something like Pedobane.
If this continues and DC and Vertigo does this again. I don't know what to say to you. And I don't think you might want to ask me about that again.
There's a new Lucifer comic coming up, I hope that you pray that they don't get more feats. And I honestly hope it doesn't happen since Lucifer is such a great character that he doesn't need ridiculous power ups to be a good character. And also considering your degradation of well written characters just because of a VS Battles thread.
And due to the Sandman themes in the recent Dark Knights Metal and N52, there is a likelihood that the M Carey Lucifer will pop around a mention and will further solidify a unified (although messy) Meta/Judeo-Christian DC/Vertigo Omniversal Hierarchy.
I'm not even joking.... pray.... Maybe you can tweet DC and Vertigo authors to discourage them from doing expanding the cosmology of DC/Vertigo again and plea to them so that Featherine can win for you. I'm sure they're reasonable people. Yet again, you might even encourage them into doing the opposite.
@sungsam: I'm not sure if Dream's lovecraft horror makes too much of a difference. Iirc, The Source Wall is The last obstruction that encompasses the Monitor Sphere and Destiny has superiority over all of it. Destiny also hinted to have claim over Lucifer/Michael until Lucifer's will was deemed to be beyond Destiny making Destiny the strongest endless member. But none of that matters if we can't properly tell how big the bleed, Limbo, Sphere of gods ect... is compared to everything in WTC. I don't think the metaverses or the Monitor sphere are as big as you're making them out to be iirc, but it's been a while and DC's cosmology and Marvel's current cosmic Hierarchy are a complete mess.
Also, Mandrakk is an aspect of the Overmonitor (Going based off Morrison's view) and at the end of their fight, they were at the edge of the Source wall, CAS and Mandrakk. So their power is mostly based off which setting you want to view them in at least regarding them pitted against the Endless. Also, the Primal void or the over monitor didn't kill Mandrakk. So Lucifer traveling through it (never seen this) probably doesn't mean much at this point if it can't be quantified. And yes lol I was joking about Featherine dog walking The Presence and Elaine. Empty hand on the other hand...
This is like Goku and Vegeta vs Whis type of battle.
Featherine has some insane power would able to beat them after a pretty long battle but still ain't close to ones like Presence who still basically above her.
@sungsam: I'm not sure if Dream's lovecraft horror makes too much of a difference. Iirc, The Source Wall is The last obstruction that encompasses the Monitor Sphere and Destiny has superiority over all of it. Destiny also hinted to have claim over Lucifer/Michael until Lucifer's will was deemed to be beyond Destiny making Destiny the strongest endless member. But none of that matters if we can't properly tell how big the bleed, Limbo, Sphere of gods ect... is compared to everything in WTC. I don't think the metaverses or the Monitor sphere are as big as you're making them out to be iirc, but it's been a while and DC's cosmology and Marvel's current cosmic Hierarchy are a complete mess.
Also, Mandrakk is an aspect of the Overmonitor (Going based off Morrison's view) and at the end of their fight, they were at the edge of the Source wall, CAS and Mandrakk. So their power is mostly based off which setting you want to view them in at least regarding them pitted against the Endless. Also, the Primal void or the over monitor didn't kill Mandrakk. So Lucifer traveling through it (never seen this) probably doesn't mean much at this point if it can't be quantified. And yes lol I was joking about Featherine dog walking The Presence and Elaine. Empty hand on the other hand...
It doesn't, but a few Umineko fans I argued with on Google+ and Youtube like to hopple around Lovecraft for some reason, so I assume you might follow the same standard just in case. I merely use arguments that I expect would click to the people I talk to, not that I would agree with it. Never mind. But it does put a point that Vertigo characters continuity to get developed on how they're seen.
I don't really recall saying that Destiny isn't the most powerful of the Endless, he is more powerful than Morpheus actually. But he will be killed by Death, who Lucifer threatened.
Huh? Sure we can quantify its size. DC already has established there are innumerable levels of existence greater and beyond understanding than the level below it as infinite higher spatial dimensions defining the multiplicity in addition to those levels of existence within a Multiverse, from many new scans and the infinite multiverse was already re-established and re-introduced. We already know how big the Multiverses in DC are. It's right there.
Lucifer traversing different Multiverses in conjunction with the Pillars of Creation and describing it all as something the Presence made, which Lucifer directly was an intermediary in its shaping. Again, Creation is used, which M. Carey used to mean a totality.
Scan
Everything is canon, including the Elseworlds and the story where WF Mxy casually erased an infinite multiverse taking place in another multiverse outside the main local group. Unseen.
The 52 Universes are only the Local Multiverse Group.
Here, DC's Vice President says that the Elseworlds are part of the DC Multiverse but on a different plane but they take place still.
DD: It’s so funny. We were looking at what the interpretation of ‘Elseworlds’ means right now. The funny part is, by putting all those stories in continuity, they’re no longer ‘Elseworlds,’ they’re part of the consistent universe, they’re just existing on a different plane. They’re not really ‘Elseworlds’ anymore.
The 52 Universes are bubble universes that create new universes as Grant Morrison based the Multiverse around quantum mechanics and string theory. Here is the scan about the Metaverse.
In 1 DC Universe, every event from sub atomic particles to entire sky scrapers and galaxies, every infinitesimal instant of time produces and multiplies infinite universes at a trans-universe level, then those infinite universes multiply into infinite universes, multiverses become megaverses, megaverses become so and so forth. If I highball this, this could be greater than an infinite dimensional multiverse already.
DC is much more explicit about an infinite dimensional cosmology than Marvel is, and actually explains how it is arguably greater than infinity expands both vertically and horizontally in all axisional levels within just 1 Universe.
Infinite Dimensions is how Umineko gets its cosmology power tiering integrity from the ladder scan as well as other scans attributed to be infinite dimensional as it is clearly, is it not? I agree it is. Now In DC, it is explicit, a little too much, moreso than Marvel ever was. If I agree that Umineko's cosmology has infinite layers, I will never disagree that DC is also that. I suspect you would follow.
Here, Limbo sees all of those several Cosmologies of a mere Universe becoming a Multiverse then a Megaverse and so on in the smallest aspect of a Metaverse and all those Massive Hyperverses, the Bleed as well as the Multiverses as a tiny book.
The entire bleed is seen as a tiny book within Limbo, where there are no material things to be destroyed.
And we already know CAS Supes dwarfing all of that with his hand.
And you already know that Destiny is above the Monitors as well as CAS Supes. All of that, within his book.
And we know Lucifer threatens the Endless on multiple creations. Describing them all as mere side effects to his power
I already said. Through all this Cosmic Scaling, Lucifer and Michael still get beat by Featherine. I merely argue that if DC does this cosmic expansion again, which at this point I wouldn't be surprised. I don't know what to say to you.
Featherine transcends her respective infinite dimensional hierarchy, but Lucifer and Michael are not part of that hierarchy nor are they inside the Books or Beatrice's cat box. It's anyone's guess what happens when Featherine is interacted with by foreign hierarchies and powers that operate in a different inapplicable system to hers, beings that she never created and vice versa to Michael and Lucifer.
It's like asking of Azathoth can be killed by Batman with a knife outside his dream.
Mandrakk I recall was an aspect of the writers, as with every monitor, not sure about that, but the Overmonitor is implied to be a co-aspect with God and Kirby's Source according to Grant Morrison. Now, the Source was originally also an aspect of the Presence.
Let's use the Outerversal logic. I don't know if any Umineko fans on this thread follow that, but in case you do, this isn't really for you. This is JUST in case Marvel downplayers of DC pop in here.
Here, Presence surpasses and contains all of Creation, everything that was created, including the Endless who are side effects of his power who are all wave functions.
In case there's gonna be people going to argue that PRESENCE IS UNIVERSAL because Marvel fans like to fucking do that every time a Lucifer thread pops in CV. Here, he is explicitly stated to have THE Universes (implying all) into existence.
Supergirl: Wings
All credits to Deus from Spacebattles.
But it doesn't matter right? After all, a Multiverse in DC is equivalent to a fucking pocket dimension in Marvel. Why do we know this? Because the interpretation of the downplayers say so, even though no such statement from DC writers ever cross-reference an equivocation. So hurr durr. IG Thanos solos DC and Vertigo just because.
@sungsam: With all do respect, if you admit he's the most powerful endless, i'm not sure what Death's touch/killing Destiny has to do with anything.
Well basically, DC makes it clear that each "Multiverse" holds infinite timelines and each "multiverse" is isolated by the bleed.
Limbo dwarfs Hypertime, The sphere of gods, Meta verse ect... in other words, CAS Has shown superiority over infinite multiverses with higher planes of reality his limbo feat. That may be above the likes of beatrice who has only been shown to sustain her will within her gameboard and create an infinite multiverse, but that's still far below the likes of Voyagers.
The domain ocean of territories holds endless pieces that are more prominent than Beatrice's territory which her territory is a infinite multiverse
Voyager are superior over this domain and this is all insignificant to the point of this all being just a single book in the library of Featherine since Ange's entire Journey which takes place throughout ep7/most of ep8. Voyagers were obliterating a group of these as symptoms with their battle against each other which is more impressive than anything CAS/Mandrakk has shown. All things considered, voyagers can move uninhibitedly on the ladder yet limit themselves cuz, reasons.
Actually, voyagers should be above the Endless. But that's arguable I guess? Since Destiny exists, but solidly above the plot bot and Mandrakk based on the mainstream DC biblical view. And they're seen as ants in Featherine's perspective
@sungsam: With all do respect, if you admit he's the most powerful endless, i'm not sure what Death's touch/killing Destiny has to do with anything.
My mistake. I mean't that Death was the most powerful of the Endless, above Destiny. And whom Lucifer threatened.
Well basically, DC makes it clear that each "Multiverse" holds infinite timelines and each "multiverse" is isolated by the bleed.
Limbo dwarfs Hypertime, The sphere of gods, Meta verse ect... in other words, CAS Has shown superiority over infinite multiverses with higher planes of reality his limbo feat. That may be above the likes of beatrice who has only been shown to sustain her will within her gameboard and create an infinite multiverse, but that's still far below the likes of Voyagers.
Each 52 of the Universe is an anchor world within the local multiverse group and is a basically Megaversal+ Infinity ^ Infinity and whatnot structure, and are Metaverses on their own already, form a Timeline Multiverse Expansion on their own that is Infinite Dimensional (likely) as a Metaverse and constantly multiplying into infinity with every infinitesimal constant, arguably bigger than a regular Infinite Dimensional Multiverse, that makes Metaverses or the 52 Universes expand, over and over again, along with the Bleed and the unseen Multiverses and that's just talking about the local multiverse. Beatrice's Catbox is already at the level of this. Maybe above or below it maybe? We still don't know how many more Multiverses are there in the Bleed. They're merely a branch of Hypertime as I read? I'm still incomplete on the research. Still not bigger than Beatrice's Catbox however IMO.
But likely, there are at least 52 more Universes that multiply as counters to the current 52 as per Dark Knights, outside of the Local Multiverse in Bleed, unseen, all of them are probably above Infinite Dimensional individually and the Elseworld.
Doesn't really matter as the 52 Universes alone are massively larger than a basic Infinite Dimensional Multiversesy.
In fact, each of the 52 Universes are already MASSIVELY above Megaversal, Megaversal X infinity ^ infinity, it's not even funny. But that is still only about as big Beatrice's level and is far below Voyagers.
Sphere of the Gods whatnot transcending that.
Seen as a tiny book to Limbo.
LImbo is seen as a disc to CAS Superman's hand that he can casually destroy. DC is becoming Suggsverse shit already.
Contained by Destiny's Book over all of that.
Lucifer and Michael above that.
But this is still not enough to beat Featherine so far because I only can tell that maybe WF Mxy is above or equal to Beatrice. Because I don't know where the Voyagers fit into that middle.
Also, Because Limbo only has 1 Book. It's not like in Umineko, there are many infinite books and stuff.
Sure, the entire thing is not as big as Umineko.
The domain ocean of territories holds endless pieces that are more prominent than Beatrice's territory which her territory is a infinite multiverse
Yes, the Ocean is incredibly massive as they are Megaverses at maybe Transfinite levels and it is bigger than the Metaverse of DC.
Voyager are superior over this domain and this is all insignificant to the point of this all being just a single book in the library of Featherine since Ange's entire Journey which takes place throughout ep7. Voyagers were obliterating a group of these as symptoms with their battle against each other which is more impressive than anything CAS/Mandrakk has shown. All things considered, voyagers can move uninhibitedly on the ladder yet limit themselves cuz, reasons.
I actually took interest in Voyager Cosmology within Umineko because it explains well that reality warpers tied to a domain or a universe are weaker than those who can leave it. For example, Shuma Gorath won't be Omnipotent in his dimension if you destroy him from the outside. Part of my arguments systems that are against Outer God wank is based on Umineko actually.
Remember, I'm merely a left leaning neutral on this discussion, there is no one really arguing for Lucifer. I'm only saying that Lucifer and Michael are not really funny jokes, they will not hurt Featherine but I don't think it is a stomp as much as Featherine fighting like IG Thanos as far as I'm concerned, I'm not inclined to think that.
I'm saying that Lucifer and Michael are possibly so powerful, they can probably only be killed by Beyonder to Meng Hao to Featherine level threats.
They can still very much destroy a vast majority of fiction. Already, there are people arguing if they are Beyonder Level due to this scaling amp bullshit that DC/Vertigo is going on.
Actually, voyagers should be above the Endless. But that's arguable I guess? Since Destiny exists, but solidly above the plot bot and Mandrakk based on the mainstream DC biblical view. And they're seen as ants in Featherine's perspective
IDK, you have to understand, regardless of your stance on who is more powerful, whether we go by DC Biblical or Meta DC, the the Endless don't really fight (they're not supposed to). They're not really above concepts. They're the opposite of that. They kind of warp reality and concepts? But it's not what you think.
They ENFORCE concepts to exist within reality, they're like the opposite of Reality Warpers, they're reality/concept enforcers or enforces of concepts in a sense to give it definition and form its shape for an Omniverse, it is similar but different. So is the Marvel Abstracts. It's anyone's guess what happens to an abstract of a nigh omnipotent shows up to mess around.
Like what happened between Beyonder and Death. Again, there are many kinds of Multiversal beings. Some abstract, some not.
Umineko Witches are above concepts, but those concepts are not really alive and are not living multiversal things like in DC so I can't say that Umineko Witches will be above the Endless just because they're concepts or not because concepts don't work the same way in these verses, I DO NOT KNOW, it's CONFUSING. I would say the Endless are mostly below the average Witch. It's hard to gauge Multiversal Nigh Omnipotent vs Multiversal Abstract. It's confusing. In Dies Irae, they kind of merge the two ideas of being like an abstract of a universe/muliverse that's why Hadou God vs Marvel/DC is more gaugable half the time.
@sungsam: I'm pretty sure Dream is above Death and the only reason why she was able to do what she did to him is because he wanted that to happen. The only thing to really scale with Lucifer to Endless is that Dream admitted that Lucifer is more powerful than him. That statement doesn't carry more weight than Featherine not knowing the difference between voyagers (beings arguably above the Endless) and humans. Voyagers also embody concepts as well. That's kinda Bernkastel and lambdadelta's niche
Am I missing something? I'm pretty sure the dc cosmology stated that there are an infinite number of "Branes" and each Brane only holds 52 universes. The Bleed is the volume that encloses these branes and from there on out, you have stuff like the "metaverse" and sphere of gods and so on. Beatrice did create infinite kakera but her territory also has higher planes of reality in it. I'm also pretty sure that CAS was only viewing limbo like that because of his vision since he was in the monitor sphere. Unless all the other monitors are infinite dimensional which would be a massive outlier.
Oh I think I misinterpreted what you were saying regarding the endless then. I thought you were saying they embody concepts and implied that makes them different from voyagers, which confused me because voyagers do the same thing but you're really saying the Endless are the opposite of that and instead, enforce these concepts throughout creation? That makes sense, I'm just saying, if you take both groups position of power into consideration (voyagers and endless) i'm not sure what the endless have done to put them above voyagers. Yeah, the demiurge power is like the only thing above them but, what have they done on a voyagers level?
If Dies Irae does both, where does that put them against the likes of DC, Umineko and Marvel? I haven't seen to much feats regarding dies irae, but you seem to be knowledgeable of it and imply it's below DC, Umineko and Marvel significantly.
@sungsam: I'm pretty sure Dream is above Death and the only reason why she was able to do what she did to him is because he wanted that to happen. The only thing to really scale with Lucifer to Endless is that Dream admitted that Lucifer is more powerful than him. That statement doesn't carry more weight than Featherine not knowing the difference between voyagers (beings arguably above the Endless) and humans. Voyagers also embody concepts as well. That's kinda Bernkastel and lambdadelta's niche
Am I missing something? I'm pretty sure the dc cosmology stated that there are an infinite number of "Branes" and each Brane only holds 52 universes. The Bleed is the volume that encloses these branes and from there on out, you have stuff like the "metaverse" and sphere of gods and so on. Beatrice did create infinite kakera but her territory also has higher planes of reality in it. I'm also pretty sure that CAS was only viewing limbo like that because of his vision since he was in the monitor sphere. Unless all the other monitors are infinite dimensional which would be a massive outlier.
Oh I think I misinterpreted what you were saying regarding the endless then. I thought you were saying they embody concepts and implied that makes them different from voyagers, which confused me because voyagers do the same thing but you're really saying the Endless are the opposite of that and instead, enforce these concepts throughout creation? That makes sense, I'm just saying, if you take both groups position of power into consideration (voyagers and endless) i'm not sure what the endless have done to put them above voyagers. Yeah, the demiurge power is like the only thing above them but, what have they done on a voyagers level? I agree though, it is confusing to scale imo.
If Dies Irae does both, where does that put them against the likes of DC, Umineko and Marvel?
It's not just a statement on Dream's part or a hyperbole. Whenever Dream went to hell twice, he was scared shitless of Lucifer and was shocked and relieved of Lucifer giving up hell and not wanting to fight Dream. It carries more weight than it really does than just a statement that is backed up by the story itself. Lucifer literally describes the Endless as mere side effects to Yahweh's Creation Process of DC's Creation, of which Lucifer is an intermediary to, so Lucifer has had his hand in part of creating the Endless themselves and predates time (from a scan IIRC) and Father Time is the father of all the Endless. The only way to think that Lucifer isn't above the Endless is to think that the Endless are above the Presence who is Lucifer's basic source/origin of power, and that is too much.
Also, if you're talking about statements... Statements is all the evidence we have that either Umineko or DC's Multiverses are infinite. You cannot draw or truly visualize infinite multiverse on paper, which still stands as a theory in our real life logic, yet we still believe it. So if you're going to question the weight of statements which is the only thing that constructs feats, then I don't know what to say to you.
I read about the Branes but I don't recall so much of it from when I last discussed it, yes it is infinite but there's too much at hand, I'm still researching other things about DC's cosmology at the moment. What we know and all that is important is that the 52 Universes are Anchor Worlds for entire infinitely expanding timelines that expand infinitely ever infinitesimal moment after the other, and there are Multiverses unseen outside the Local Multiverse group, including the Dark Multiverse of Dark Knights Metal.
DC is stretchy with its cosmology because one issue says there are 18 higher spatial dimensions, another says there are at least a hundred thousand and DC never made an issued statement that "there are this many dimensions in DC and anyone who says otherwise is wrong" kind of statement, so we assume highest statements there is. But I don't like to push it that much, if I wanted to, I could say that DC's Multiverse can be bigger than Marvel's but that's pushing it.
CAS was not viewing limbo with 4D vision, IIRC that misconception was debunked somewhere.... I'll try to look into it again however. But it is already established that the Monitor Sphere transcends Limbo.
And being "Infinite" Dimensional carries very little meaning in fiction without context. We don't even know what that means. Are they bigger than infinite dimensional? Is that their attack potency? Is that their size or embodiment? Because I tell you, for example, Molecule Man's power is infinite dimensional, but we've never seen his body reach that size. The Beyonder/Ivory Kings can kill infinite dimensional entities, but they really cannot always time travel for some reason.
DC is full of back and forth outliers by its own stories alone and constantly retcons its own characters over and over again, even the Source was changed a few times. So we shouldn't start there. Lucifer as I describe him is merely from the perspective of a unified DC/Vertigo cosmology, it is still confusing how Lucifer fits in with Synnar, Krona, etc. who are all described with shaping the DC Multiverse and all each of them contradict each other and the rest's history in Creation really badly. We just ignore things that would otherwise contradict Lucifer's connection to Creation if we use a model of Lucifer and Michael that would stand against Featherine closest. Otherwise, Lucifer doesn't even exist in DC, but the people who know him historically constantly appear in DC (Dream, Presence, Death, etc. etc.) and events from the Sandman constantly get referenced in DC and vice versa. Lucifer and Michael both appeared in Spectre's solo series.
Endless are literally just Marvel Abstracts, but they're DC and are more philosophical in the way they're written. Again, they're not supposed to fight and calling them reality warpers is kind of weird to call them that. But their reach is all over DC's Multiverse, but the Endless are hard to gauge and compare even within DC/Vertigo itself. Right now, DC has like three characters that are basically the same thing (Pralaya, GEB, Mother Night) we don't even know how to gauge these characters within the setting, it is difficult enough.
Trying to compare them to forces from other verses already confusing. Again, for example, Battler could probably kill Azathoth because Battler is not part of Azathoth's dream and Battler's existence does not need to be regulated by some bacteria looking eldritch god. I don't care how "Omnipotent" or how "high level" Azathoth is within his verse, that is still a plausible scenario. See? Different power systems and cosmologies are confusing enough.
Dies Irae is complicated because while they transcend the concept of dimension, these dimensions are only about 26 and there's only a basic multiverse. Taikyoku makes you above a Hyperdimensional Construct but this "construct" is so much smaller than Marvel's Multiverse, it's not even funny. The Taikyoku is origin for dimensional space, but how much of this space can create by feats is 26, that's far below than what the Beyonder Realm can create and do.
The Atziluth Users only have basic Multiversal (maybe Megaversal) feats, such things are far below the top tiers from Umineko, Marvel and DC.
The only way Hadou Gods get around against DC, Umineko and Marvel's Top Tiers is to stop using Cosmology tiering for Hadou Gods and use VSBW Outerverse Tiering for them instead.
The logic of VSBW Outerverse tiering is that, it doesn't matter how big the cosmology output is of Dies Irae, they transcend the concept of dimensions, it's already enough. But such a thing depends on massive leaps of skipping damage output and favoring false equivocations that transcending dimensions in Dies Irae is the same ease as transcending dimensions in DC and Marvel and Umineko which are much bigger. The Outerverse logic of gauging power for Hadou Gods could be correct, but it should not be the only way to look at them. Because hey, VSBW does not hold all the cards nor the rules.
I don't think you'd get a good answer from me there, sorry. All I can give you, is that fictional characters at this level of power beyond Multiversal can be viewed, scaled and gauged in different perspectives, but these perspectives may oppose each other. Many perspectives can be true, but only one can be true to your view at any given time. It really depends on what you accept.
Honestly, I think the brothers would take it. Featherine is, at best, nigh-omnipotent, just as the brothers are. So why are people overestimating Featherine?
Honestly, I think the brothers would take it. Featherine is, at best, nigh-omnipotent, just as the brothers are. So why are people overestimating Featherine?
Opinion on Umineko depends on forum you are on.
In Spacebattles, Umineko seems to be thought of as mainly Multiversal to Megaversal Characters. They're great debunkers of Demonbane wank but are mostly Umineko downplayers.
Here in Comicvine, it is seen as Infinite Higher Spatial Transcendent Megaversal+++++++++++ Beings. One of the scans that prove this, based on a scan that mentions this.
This scan theorizes that maybe the world is on a ladder that reaches to a bottomless depths.
My Umineko friends around here say that ladders are infinite higher spatial dimensions that are bigger than megaverses.
Here is about the hilbert infinite dimensiony pages. I think it mentions ladders. So yeah.
In Spacebattles, Umineko seems to be thought of as mainly Multiversal to Megaversal Characters. They're great debunkers of Demonbane wank but are mostly Umineko downplayers.
From what I've seen, currently on Spacebattles, you can count on one hand the people with knowledge of Umineko, even though, ironically, the site has the biggest Umineko respect thread I've seen. So, there aren't as many downplayers as there are people with very limited knowledge of the source material.
Like, a week or two ago, there was a thread with Bernkastel vs The Doctor (Doctor Who), and most people were asking for what Bernkastel could do as they didn't knew the character.
Honestly, I think the brothers would take it. Featherine is, at best, nigh-omnipotent, just as the brothers are. So why are people overestimating Featherine?
Opinion on Umineko depends on forum you are on.
In Spacebattles, Umineko seems to be thought of as mainly Multiversal to Megaversal Characters. They're great debunkers of Demonbane wank but are mostly Umineko downplayers.
Here in Comicvine, it is seen as Infinite Higher Spatial Transcendent Megaversal+++++++++++ Beings. One of the scans that prove this, based on a scan that mentions this.
This scan theorizes that maybe the world is on a ladder that reaches to a bottomless depths.
My Umineko friends around here say that ladders are infinite higher spatial dimensions that are bigger than megaverses.
Here is about the hilbert infinite dimensiony pages. I think it mentions ladders. So yeah.
Honestly, I think the brothers would take it. Featherine is, at best, nigh-omnipotent, just as the brothers are. So why are people overestimating Featherine?
Opinion on Umineko depends on forum you are on.
In Spacebattles, Umineko seems to be thought of as mainly Multiversal to Megaversal Characters. They're great debunkers of Demonbane wank but are mostly Umineko downplayers.
Here in Comicvine, it is seen as Infinite Higher Spatial Transcendent Megaversal+++++++++++ Beings. One of the scans that prove this, based on a scan that mentions this.
This scan theorizes that maybe the world is on a ladder that reaches to a bottomless depths.
My Umineko friends around here say that ladders are infinite higher spatial dimensions that are bigger than megaverses.
Here is about the hilbert infinite dimensiony pages. I think it mentions ladders. So yeah.
That's one of the reasons why Featherine stomps Michael and Lucifer as she is above the ladder.
I'll get to the other scans soon.
But that still doesn't explain how she beats both Michael and Lucifer, who together created and shaped all of existence. The entire DC omniverse.
That kind of depends on interpretation again.
Argument from Trexalfa on Naruto forums since he explains better than I. But I do not agree with it.
Brothers mostly have no chance IMO.
The feat in which Lambda sucks a few book-multiverses into a black hole.
How do you even interpret that? Sucking a few books, or destroying multiverses? Because I doubt books have multiversal durability. If I were in the City of Books I could destroy multiverses too, by that reasoning.
It's the same reason people don't say Roland Deschain from the Dark Tower crushes multiverses each time he steps on a sand grain.
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About the Dark Tower, it's cosmology says each atom of everything basically contains a never-ending chain of universes. Of course a normal guy is going to be stepping on many atoms while taking a walk. Roland by himself is an skilled Gunslinger (capable of slaughtering entire towns while they are provided with weapons, just with his guns), but it'd be ridiculous to consider him a multiverse buster.
@bdelloidgrain2: Featherine views the entire domain of witches which includes the city of books (omniverse by comic terms) as nothing but a chessboard and transcended the concept of infinity/reached the domain of the "0" boundless being of her verse and "touched" the final boundary and survived. Resides an a unquantifiable reality where she views everything as fiction
@bdelloidgrain2: Featherine views the entire domain of witches which includes the city of books (omniverse by comic terms) as nothing but a chessboard and transcended the concept of infinity/reached the domain of the "0" boundless being of her verse and "touched" the final boundary and survived. Resides an a unquantifiable reality where she views everything as fiction
What you're saying is nothing to Featherine
That doesn't even make sense. If you're saying she has her own realities, then Lucifer has an infinite of those as well.
Besides, creating the Omniverse is not a "nothing" feat. The omniverse consists of infinite planes of existence, infinite multiverse, infinite universes, infinite life, and is infinite in general. There is no limit to an omniverse, and Michael and Lucifer created it.
@sungsam: That argument is retarded. The city of Books is like the highest known reality in Umineko which heaven and hell are connected to. The fact that they were manifested in this realm is a feat within itself.
That's like me saying Lucifer morningstar is only Mirror level because rejected creations were stored in mirrors in the mansions of silence Or Molecule man is only box level because the omniverse was is in a box.
@bdelloidgrain2: Featherine views the entire domain of witches which includes the city of books (omniverse by comic terms) as nothing but a chessboard and transcended the concept of infinity/reached the domain of the "0" boundless being of her verse and "touched" the final boundary and survived. Resides an a unquantifiable reality where she views everything as fiction
What you're saying is nothing to Featherine
Additionally, she is NOT an omnipotent character and does still consist of the demiurgic power, something that Michael has complete control over.
@bdelloidgrain2: They are, people still believe Michael + Luci = Presence.
Basically, the Presence was lazy and just decided to create Lucifer and Michael and got them to do his job for them (create creation). The Presence still has complete control over them as he is the true God of DC.
Translates to: "I don't know anything about Umineko and i'm mad at their power >:("
Additionally, she is NOT an omnipotent character
Neither is Lucifer or Michael. Actually, if you take omnipotence into account, their positions would be far below Featherine's considering The Presence is not omnipotent and not boundless while they're dwarfed by him and Featherine who has reached the highest one can go/final boundary and to pass through it, become god by virtue of being apart of it.
The omniverse consists of infinite planes of existence, infinite multiverse, infinite universes,
Actually no. An infinite Multiverse is just beyond multiversal. If that's the case, Beatrice is "omniversal" since she created her own high multiverse and she's fodder to voyagers while voyagers are fodder to Featherine.
Beatrice's territory is beyond multiversal, The sea of fragments is beyond infinite multiverses, the city of books is far beyond that and Featherine is far beyond everything in the domain of witches. Sorry, what you described is still nothing to Featherine
This whole thread pretty much comes down to 1 nigh-omnipotent character versus 2 nigh-omnipotent characters. Anyone here can will the other team completely out of existence. Only problem with that is if Michael dies, the entirety of creation falls and Featherine dies as well (as she, technically, consists of the Demiurgic power).
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