@elesia: I generally think both Void Shiki and Archetype could pull off a win. Archetype more comfortably, but I'd say Void can too. Aurora's problem is that she is actually more vague than those 2 in terms of what she can do She's in the same tier, but we know what Akasha does (all things stem from it and it can even record events and shit), so we know all of the hax they would get. Also Aurora does have a glaring weakness, which is the head device she has, if you damage it, it nerfs her really bad in some unknown way.
Just like Featherine is close to the omnipotent realm of the creator, Void is connected to the omnipotent source that can create anything (Akaha). She doesn't have full control over it but can do "just about" anything. Archetype is vaguely above Void, and the gap is likely not a big one, so she should be in the same tier.
Aurora does have a direct on-screen feat of bypassing Endless Nine too with her narrative halting, thus Ten Crowns. Which is something you really never see from 99% of fiction..
Archetype kinda screws her with her adaptation.
Aurora in-character...
Assuming she gets her hax off before Arc, what she would do is halt the narrative and write her to die. Wouldn't work because of no concept of death though. She could instill it theoretically, but she isn't omniscient and wouldn't assume such a thing.
Once she writes someone to die, she unhalts the narrative.
Once it obviously doesn't work, Arc would be immune to her halting the narrative again. So that doesn't bode well.
Also, Void and Archetype may have a defense against this from the start. Since Meltrylis can alter laws to where she cannot be targerted by something. And we know Void can manipulate laws.
If this did somehow bypass that though, it depends on who kills who first though. Unified Language for instance would be really dangerous against WTC. Since they aren't particularly great at dealing with mind hax, especially really weird ones like that.
@elesia: I generally think both Void Shiki and Archetype could pull off a win. Archetype more comfortably, but I'd say Void can too. Aurora's problem is that she is actually more vague than those 2 in terms of what she can do She's in the same tier, but we know what Akasha does (all things stem from it and it can even record events and shit), so we know all of the hax they would get. Also Aurora does have a glaring weakness, which is the head device she has, if you damage it, it nerfs her really bad in some unknown way. I belive the head peice is used so she doesnt get absorbed by the creator who she may be an avatar of/drawing power from.
Just like Featherine is close to the omnipotent realm of the creator, Void is connected to the omnipotent source that can create anything (Akaha). She doesn't have full control over it but can do "just about" anything. Archetype is vaguely above Void, and the gap is likely not a big one, so she should be in the same tier. Archertype just has full control over her planet. if they were fighting somewhere neutral (Meaning no marble phantasm, backup or the sort) you have a character who can still do the shit she can supposdley stated she can do. vs the person who got nerfed.
Aurora does have a direct on-screen feat of bypassing Endless Nine too with her narrative halting, thus Ten Crowns. Which is something you really never see from 99% of fiction.. ten crowns? that only stops events. narrative manipultion is something that no nasuverse character can do other than this dude
Archetype kinda screws her with her adaptation.
Aurora in-character...
Assuming she gets her hax off before Arc, what she would do is halt the narrative and write her to die. Wouldn't work because of no concept of death though. She could instill it theoretically, but she isn't omniscient and wouldn't assume such a thing. There's a reason why narrative erasure is better than conceptual errasure. one removes you from the story, while the other removes your concept. keep in mind i have no idea who she is, but from what your saying she should be above
Once she writes someone to die, she unhalts the narrative.
Once it obviously doesn't work, Arc would be immune to her halting the narrative again. So that doesn't bode well. How so? has she ever stopped nasu from doing anything to the story? because narrative manipultion is essentially writer authority.
Also, Void and Archetype may have a defense against this from the start. Since Meltrylis can alter laws to where she cannot be targerted by something. And we know Void can manipulate laws. Laws are not above concepts. concepts are resonible for one things existence, while laws are usually the rules governing the universe. someone like accelator who isnt that much impressive to me. can do the same thing with adding a tree, seeing ur law as a vector and then controlling it.
If this did somehow bypass that though, it depends on who kills who first though. Unified Language for instance would be really dangerous against WTC. Since they aren't particularly great at dealing with mind hax, especially really weird ones like that. Dont know what that means. but arcs backup isnt infinite (there characters who can even generate mana on the level of the planet in GO).
fate has NO buisness messing with someone who could alter the story or the logic of it. even though i myself enjoy. theres a limit to what concept and laws can actually do/obtain.
EDIT: first thing i see while looking at her profile on the wiki, is already some author meta story shit.
Archertype just has full control over her planet. if they were fighting somewhere neutral (Meaning no marble phantasm, backup or the sort) you have a character who can still do the shit she can supposdley stated she can do. vs the person who got nerfed.
She can't handle Void alone, who has vast access to Akasha, but not all of it. And should have every known ability in the Nasuverse.
Archetype is completely out of the question and her power clearly goes beyond her connection to Gaia, which even normal Arcueid has.
ten crowns? that only stops events. narrative manipultion is something that no nasuverse character can do other than this dude
Cough Anderson Cough.
There's a reason why narrative erasure is better than conceptual errasure.
There is no difference.
How so? has she ever stopped nasu from doing anything to the story? because narrative manipultion is essentially writer authority.
Aurora does not equal real life author level.
fate has NO buisness messing with someone who could alter the story or the logic of it.
Enough with this beyond logic shit. The same can be applied to Akasha, which can do the "impossible" and Archetype scales to it.
But you shouldn't use it in a debate.
Debating is meant to reach a logical conclusion on something. Once we accept illogical claims, there is no room for debate at all. If you do that for Featherine, you can do that for Archetype. Then it becomes no answer at all.
Because there is nothing to debate without logic. If you believe in beyond logic, keep it to yourself or at least outside of debates.
Archertype just has full control over her planet. if they were fighting somewhere neutral (Meaning no marble phantasm, backup or the sort) you have a character who can still do the shit she can supposdley stated she can do. vs the person who got nerfed.
She can't handle Void alone, who has vast access to Akasha, but not all of it. And should have every known ability in the Nasuverse.
disingenuous for either void or arcueid to have every ability in the nasuverse when they arent even servants in there universe.
Archetype is completely out of the question and her power clearly goes beyond her connection to Gaia, which even normal Arcueid has.
like i said, take away the planet what can arcueid do now other than using castle brunestud to eat RMs. nothing.
ten crowns? that only stops events. narrative manipultion is something that no nasuverse character can do other than this dude
Cough Anderson Cough.
Yeah ofc, writing in a book in fiction now makes you have narrative manipultion. guess the goat andreson really does solo ccc while saving my ass from trying to roll for merlin.
There's a reason why narrative erasure is better than conceptual errasure.
There is no difference.
Defintley is, conceptual erassure is something numerous other stories do, and characters as well. narrative erassure should be alike to you erasing your stick figure that you called a conceptual immune being.
How so? has she ever stopped nasu from doing anything to the story? because narrative manipultion is essentially writer authority.
Aurora does not equal real life author level.
to them yes, and her ability also makes her view them as fiction, like we do. any meta world author shit is already inherently above the nasuverse. take scp 3812 for an example.
fate has NO buisness messing with someone who could alter the story or the logic of it.
Enough with this beyond logic shit. The same can be applied to Akasha, which can do the "impossible" and Archetype scales to it.
"Apples are the most overpowered thing in my verse now and can only be used to defeat me", Archertype doesnt scale to Akasha at all, if the other stronger types cant do it or implied to have a connection. she cant.
But you shouldn't use it in a debate.
Debating is meant to reach a logical conclusion on something. Once we accept illogical claims, there is no room for debate at all. If you do that for Featherine, you can do that for Archetype. Then it becomes no answer at all.
Archertypes only thing is effecting the surronding planet. this shit doesnt even control humans but the things around it. you cant scale akasha, a willignes location that might house a diety. to arcuied since nasu said shes the most powerful (Then later showing void can be defeated. and saying type mercury is the strongest)
Because there is nothing to debate without logic. If you believe in beyond logic, keep it to yourself or at least outside of debates.
guess youve never heard of the term metapotent and its illogical bs. an neither akasha, void or archertype have the ability to narrativley manipulate the story, like say adolla in FF.
you should stop your omnipotent archertype stuff too, she doesnt scale in any way shape or form to the root. and is outdated in today nasuverse terms. (F/GO throws everything that isnt fate stay night into the lolnope fodder cant happen). dont use one statement from possibly 10+ years ago, over the preltha we have now.
Narrative Manipultion >>= Logic manipultion (As the logic that dictates the world can now be altered) >>>>>>>>>> Omniversal type concept.
@the_metabee: "disingenuous for either void or arcueid to have every ability in the nasuverse when they arent even servants in there universe."
...
Servants still exist within the Nasuverse. What?
We know what the Root does and that it records all things in existence.
Having a large connection to it should grant someone all of the known powers of the verse, which should be a very small portion in the grand scheme of things.
"like i said, take away the planet what can arcueid do now other than using castle brunestud to eat RMs. nothing."
Composite Nasuverse powers and more potentially, since she's regarded above Void, both with the statement and herself believing so. Which is more than enough to completely shred Umineko.
"Yeah ofc, writing in a book in fiction now makes you have narrative manipultion. guess the goat andreson really does solo ccc while saving my ass from trying to roll for merlin."
You mean the guy who literally wrote the narrative for Kiara to reach True Demon status and become one with the Moon Cell?
"Defintley is, conceptual erassure is something numerous other stories do, and characters as well. narrative erassure should be alike to you erasing your stick figure that you called a conceptual immune being."
Yeah, including Umineko.
There's no such thing as beyond conceptual erasure if you're erasing the very idea of something.
"to them yes, and her ability also makes her view them as fiction, like we do. any meta world author shit is already inherently above the nasuverse. take scp 3812 for an example."
Not even going to comment on the wank train of 3812.
The Moon Cell already has layers like that anyways if you want to look at the comparison of higher dimensions being compared to someone hopping out of a book.
But this meta shit makes no sense and you need to stop using illogical things to debate. It's an automatic loss.
Reality above fiction layers is hardly different from dimensions infinitely above lower. They're the same thing and not the same as us in real life > fiction, considering fiction doesn't actually exist to us, while it does in those verses like Umineko as lower worlds.
"Apples are the most overpowered thing in my verse now and can only be used to defeat me"
Complete narrative manipulation is omnipotence, which Featherine does not have.
"Archertype doesnt scale to Akasha at all, if the other stronger types cant do it or implied to have a connection. she cant."
There are no types equal to or above her. Crimson Moon is equal to Red Arcueid. She's directly placed above Void Shiki and Archetype spoke to Void through Ryougi and was confident in killing her.
"Archertypes only thing is effecting the surronding planet."
WoG says otherwise, along with Archetype her self seeming to back up his words. Otherwise she would not be above Void and everyone else according to him.
"this shit doesnt even control humans but the things around it. you cant scale akasha, a willignes location that might house a diety. to arcuied since nasu said shes the most powerful (Then later showing void can be defeated. and saying type mercury is the strongest)"
He has never said Type Mercury is the strongest. There was a Koha Ace thing mentioning this, which is about as canon as Carnival Phantasm. Void can't be defeated by anyone when serious except Archetype. GO Void is a shadow of her real self and not using her connection to the Root. And again, if you want to use illogical wank for Featherine, the Root has statements saying it can do the impossible. So this goes both ways.
"guess youve never heard of the term metapotent and its illogical bs."
Metapotent? Fanmade term and is just the omnipotent interpretation that can do illogical things. Using illogical arguments in debates makes no sense and can be applied to the opposition, so what's the point?
"an neither akasha, void or archertype have the ability to narrativley manipulate the story, like say adolla in FF."
They would have Anderson's narrative manipulation, which honestly very impressive in its use in CCC. The only reason Anderson himself sucks is because he would never abuse it in-character.
"you should stop your omnipotent archertype stuff too,"
No one said she was omnipotent.
"she doesnt scale in any way shape or form to the root."
No offense, but you clearly don't know much about old Nasuverse at all. It's clear you haven't even read any of the works and are just saying random things.
She is directly placed above Void Shiki.
She is confident in taking Void out in Actress Again, as she's speaking directly to her through Ryougi if you notice the dialogue .
GO characters solidly sit as supersonic still for the most part for failing to blitz Servants.
That means Tsukihime low-tiers would fodderize them.
"(F/GO throws everything that isnt fate stay night into the lolnope fodder cant happen). dont use one statement from possibly 10+ years ago, over the preltha we have now"
Nothing, even Extra and CCC, which are vastly above any of the weak fodder stuff GO has presented come close to Void's statements to this day.
"Narrative Manipultion >>= Logic manipultion"
If you're going to keep using this illogical nonsense, the Root can do the impossible. So it does the same shit and therefore can't be debated.
"(As the logic that dictates the world can now be altered) >>>>>>>>>> Omniversal type concept."
You're using random buzzwords that have no meaning.
@the_metabee: "disingenuous for either void or arcueid to have every ability in the nasuverse when they arent even servants in there universe."
...
Servants still exist within the Nasuverse. What?
Neither of the shikis universes have human heroes or the lore behind them for something like fgo to happen (there whole world shouldnt even be like any of the fate shit) and only has baseline continets.
They do not =, nasu even said Go and CCC can NEVER be implented with the likes of his older series.
We know what the Root does and that it records all things in existence.
Cool and all, but arcuied doesnt scale to it, neither does she effect other nasuverse earths.
Having a large connection to it should grant someone all of the known powers of the verse, which should be a very small portion in the grand scheme of things.
It really shouldnt. otherwise you have zeltretch nuking everyone with EA and all other nps. this is also ignoring how certain abilties have a unique existences.
"like i said, take away the planet what can arcueid do now other than using castle brunestud to eat RMs. nothing."
Composite Nasuverse powers and more potentially, since she's regarded above Void, both with the statement and herself believing so. Which is more than enough to completely shred Umineko.
again, anything that has narrative manipultion solos fate. and Type mercury >>>>>> Achertype > (Beasts/Grands)>>>> Void
"Yeah ofc, writing in a book in fiction now makes you have narrative manipultion. guess the goat andreson really does solo ccc while saving my ass from trying to roll for merlin."
You mean the guy who literally wrote the narrative for Kiara to reach True Demon status and become one with the Moon Cell?
Plot manipultion more than narrative manipultion. theres a diffrence. as one edits the story, other edits the plot.
"Defintley is, conceptual erassure is something numerous other stories do, and characters as well. narrative erassure should be alike to you erasing your stick figure that you called a conceptual immune being."
Yeah, including Umineko.
An FAA from just the words youve told me can already erase the god tiers of the nasuverse.
There's no such thing as beyond conceptual erasure if you're erasing the very idea of something.
your limiting powers and abilties because you dont belive them. but ill do you one better. theres no such thing above narrative erasure as the character and its very idea/concept was never made and there respective concepts.
"to them yes, and her ability also makes her view them as fiction, like we do. any meta world author shit is already inherently above the nasuverse. take scp 3812 for an example."
Not even going to comment on the wank train of 3812.
3812 ability is to just transend anything greater than it. no matter what (as thats its narrative)
The Moon Cell already has layers like that anyways if you want to look at the comparison of higher dimensions being compared to someone hopping out of a book.
Your really comparing higher dimensions to fucking narratives?
But this meta shit makes no sense and you need to stop using illogical things to debate. It's an automatic loss.
put it in, that narrative manipultion >>>>>>> Conceptual manipultion >>>>>>>> Law manipultion.
Reality above fiction layers is hardly different from dimensions infinitely above lower. They're the same thing and not the same as us in real life > fiction, considering fiction doesn't actually exist to us, while it does in those verses like Umineko as lower worlds.
Other than fiction layers have there own set of dimensions that already make those dimensions in the lower fiction nought. this shit is so illogical. can BB now beat you up because of that? because being a lower fiction makes it impossible for her to do shit.
"Apples are the most overpowered thing in my verse now and can only be used to defeat me"
Complete narrative manipulation is omnipotence, which Featherine does not have.
Closer than arcuied and void to it. if there arguments on her beating hajun then she defintley beats those two.
"Archertype doesnt scale to Akasha at all, if the other stronger types cant do it or implied to have a connection. she cant."
There are no types equal to or above her. Crimson Moon is equal to Red Arcueid. She's directly placed above Void Shiki and Archetype spoke to Void through Ryougi and was confident in killing her.
yes they are, and nasu said theres nothing on/in earth that can defeat type mercury. including those two. so your statement is nought. (As weve also seen how "REAL" types dog any feats for crimson moon who barely is one like arcuied)
"Archertypes only thing is effecting the surronding planet."
WoG says otherwise, along with Archetype her self seeming to back up his words. Otherwise she would not be above Void and everyone else according to him.
She literally cant back up any of his words. and is quite literally featless and weaker than type mercury by WoG, and void being weaker than beasts.
"this shit doesnt even control humans but the things around it. you cant scale akasha, a willignes location that might house a diety. to arcuied since nasu said shes the most powerful (Then later showing void can be defeated. and saying type mercury is the strongest)"
He has never said Type Mercury is the strongest. There was a Koha Ace thing mentioning this, which is about as canon as Carnival Phantasm. Void can't be defeated by anyone when serious except Archetype. GO Void is a shadow of her real self and not using her connection to the Root. And again, if you want to use illogical wank for Featherine, the Root has statements saying it can do the impossible. So this goes both ways.
Theres never been such a notion of void being a shadow of her former self, infact she got stronger as a servant than a human.
"guess youve never heard of the term metapotent and its illogical bs."
Metapotent? Fanmade term and is just the omnipotent interpretation that can do illogical things. Using illogical arguments in debates makes no sense and can be applied to the opposition, so what's the point?
"Fanmade term" its an ability to counter the omnipotence paradox and is already better. (And you yourself using that logic)
"an neither akasha, void or archertype have the ability to narrativley manipulate the story, like say adolla in FF."
They would have Anderson's narrative manipulation, which honestly very impressive in its use in CCC. The only reason Anderson himself sucks is because he would never abuse it in-character.
assumption + wank. good combo.
"you should stop your omnipotent archertype stuff too,"
No one said she was omnipotent.
Your saying she scales to akasha, who in your words can do the impossible and illogical things. and your also saying she has all abilities.
"she doesnt scale in any way shape or form to the root."
No offense, but you clearly don't know much about old Nasuverse at all. It's clear you haven't even read any of the works and are just saying random things.
Yeah nada, nothing. all i know is GO which basically shakes it head at the old nasuverse with newer feats/statements and characters.
She is directly placed above Void Shiki.
Brocken record. but she would be on the same level as beasts then.
She is confident in taking Void out in Actress Again, as she's speaking directly to her through Ryougi if you notice the dialogue .
GO characters solidly sit as supersonic still for the most part for failing to blitz Servants.
Nope, FTL solar system busting, mooncell shutting down servants.
That means Tsukihime low-tiers would fodderize them.
Opposite. foreign god/yog sloth alone solos.
"(F/GO throws everything that isnt fate stay night into the lolnope fodder cant happen). dont use one statement from possibly 10+ years ago, over the preltha we have now"
Nothing, even Extra and CCC, which are vastly above any of the weak fodder stuff GO has presented come close to Void's statements to this day.
other than her own statements, saying shes weaker than beasts and PM. and Wog saying type mercury is the strongest.
"Narrative Manipultion >>= Logic manipultion"
If you're going to keep using this illogical nonsense, the Root can do the impossible. So it does the same shit and therefore can't be debated.
Is the root even valid? it cant do shit. and is only there for connection or a buff/mystery. its shit otherwise. and no one in the nasuverse scales to the root
"(As the logic that dictates the world can now be altered) >>>>>>>>>> Omniversal type concept."
You're using random buzzwords that have no meaning.
trying to simplify it to you
OT: Not even a feathrine fan/wanker didnt even know about anything on her but she still claps the nasuverse.
They do not =, nasu even said Go and CCC can NEVER be implented with the likes of his older series.
Akasha does not care about this. Akasha is not limited to timelines.
Cool and all, but arcuied doesnt scale to it, neither does she effect other nasuverse earths.
She does, she is outright stated to be above Void. She IS the Earth's Type. Imagine the Type of Earth not being able to affect her own planet.
It really shouldnt. otherwise you have zeltretch nuking everyone with EA and all other nps.
What do you even mean? Zelretch has a tiny connection. He is just vaguely connected because sorcery. He doesn't have direct access to Akasha like Void and Archetype.
this is also ignoring how certain abilties have a unique existences.
Akasha does not care.
again, anything that has narrative manipultion solos fate.
Already debunked. And narrative manipulation is overwanked anyways. It comes in different forms and limitations.
and Type mercury >>>>>> Achertype > (Beasts/Grands)>>>> Void
Type Mercury is featless and has nothing putting him in Void's league, let alone Archetype. There's nothing even putting him above Type-Moon right now except vaguely being stronger than some Types. Beasts are fodder to Void. The game itself says that she is all powerful if she actually bothers to use her connection to the Root. A shadow of Void that doesn't use her connection saying that she can't beat them means nothing. She was already placed as second on a list that included Primate Murder.
Plot manipultion more than narrative manipultion. theres a diffrence. as one edits the story, other edits the plot.
That's the exact same thing.
An FAA from just the words youve told me can already erase the god tiers of the nasuverse.
You're knowledge on Nasuverse is severely lacking.
your limiting powers and abilties because you dont belive them. but ill do you one better.
No, you have to use logic to debate because that's what debating is. Trying to reach a logical conclusion on something. If you abandon logic, which you can do for both characters, there is nothing to debate.
theres no such thing above narrative erasure as the character and its very idea/concept was never made and there respective concepts.
There is no such thing above narrative erasure. I agree. It's just conceptual erasure done through a certain means though.
Your really comparing higher dimensions to fucking narratives?
Higher dimensions can easily be narratives. Umineko higher dimensions are narratives. You do know there's a difference between the idea of reality>fiction in fiction and real life reality>fiction right?
Reality>fiction in real life means the fictions we write literally do not exist. While in fictions like Umineko, it just means there is a higher layer that transcends the lower layer as if it were a story, but those worlds still actually exist. It's honestly just infinity differences with some extra potential perks.
put it in, that narrative manipultion >>>>>>> Conceptual manipultion >>>>>>>> Law manipultion.
I really don't know why make claims on things you know nothing about.
All of these things can be completely equal. Narrative manipulation in of itself is a concept. Concepts can be apart of a story as well. Law manipulation can reach the conceptual level and you can have conceptual laws. None of these three things are inherently superior to each other. Context is needed.
Other than fiction layers have there own set of dimensions that already make those dimensions in the lower fiction nought.
I don't know what you're saying here. But if you're trying to say lower narratives literally do not exist compared to higher narratives, this is wrong, because these narratives don't work like literal real life narratives.
And trust me, you don't want them to. Since it basically means you are transcending something that doesn't exist and it isn't even a feat.
this shit is so illogical
Weren't you the one explicitly arguing for illogical things in multiple threads now?
can BB now beat you up because of that? because being a lower fiction makes it impossible for her to do shit.
No it doesn't because the difference isn't literal like fiction being actually non-existent compared to our real life. The narratives transcended in Umineko are real worlds. Higher narratives just transcend them and are superior in a similar way to higher infinities.
Closer than arcuied and void to it.
False, just like Featherine is close to the omnipotent realm of the creator, Void has a large access to Akasha and can do "just about anything" with it.
if there arguments on her beating hajun then she defintley beats those two.
the Shinza god-tier who is shit compared to even base BB? Sure.
yes they are
No they are not. You already admitted to have no knowledge on the old Nasuverse. Red Arcueid is already equal to Type Moon. Archetype is massively beyond the other Types.
and nasu said theres nothing on/in earth that can defeat type mercury.
No, he said something along the lines of its attack power is stronger than anything on the surface of the Earth.
Ignoring the fact that he's been on the Earth for a long time and we don't know what time frame it's referring to, Archetype exist in the Reverse Side primarily and Void doesn't actively use her powers and isn't even the active personality of Ryougi.
(As weve also seen how "REAL" types dog any feats for crimson moon who barely is one like arcuied)
How the hell is TYPE-MOON barely a Type?
No Type has a feat as good as Arcueid and Type-Moon's moon drop, which was done even by Wallachia using 30% of Arcueid's power. All Type-Jupiter did was have his core vaguely scorch a continent after losing to Ado Edem.
Type-Saturn could be interpreted to be vaguely above Jupiter and the others since it seemed to be the leader or head of the attack on humanity. Going by feats, 30% Arcueid embarrasses Type-Jupiter and just slams a moon onto it.
weaker than type mercury by WoG
Proof or get out.
void being weaker than beasts.
You mean a shadow of Void who never uses her connection to the Root, but rather fights only with her sword and Mystic Eyes? Yeah, that's surely an accurate representation of Void's true power. The actual Void was already placed above Primate Murder by Nasu himself. The game itself states that Void is all powerful with her connection and that parameters becomes meaningless to her, placing her above the whole setting of GO, unless you can prove that stats are meaningless for Beasts as well. It's always funny seeing Void and Archetype downplayers try to mental gymnastic their way out of Nasu directly putting them as the top 2.
Theres never been such a notion of void being a shadow of her former self
" So that you won't feel sadden when you wake up from the dream and disappear from her side, she - who is nothing more than an illusion - will not leave behind any meaningful memories." - Profile of Shiki (Saber)
She is nothing more than an illusion. She is not the real Void.
infact she got stronger as a servant than a human.
Nice fanfiction. Servant containers literally can't even contain the full power of a Heroic Spirit. You think it can contain God?
"Fanmade term" its an ability to counter the omnipotence paradox and is already better. (And you yourself using that logic)
The counter to the omnipotence paradox is either that omnipotence can do all things logical, and illogical things are not things and so don't count as restrictions for not being able to preform, or that omnipotence transcends all logic and reasoning and that discussing its mechanics is beyond our capabilities.
assumption + wank. good combo.
What do you mean... He literally did this.
He made Kiara reach True Demon status and fuse with the Moon Cell all due to him manipulating the plot.
Akasha records all things in existence and Void almost has full access to it and can do "just about anything."
Archetype even more-so.
Your saying she scales to akasha, who in your words can do the impossible and illogical things.
Having a large access to Akasha doesn't make her omnipotent. Only Akasha itself is omnipotent, Archetype is nigh-omnipotent. And i only said that in order to show how your logic of illogical things can backfire.
and your also saying she has all abilities.
Akasha has recorded every ability in the Nasuverse, it's only natural for them to be able to use them.
Yeah nada, nothing. all i know is GO which basically shakes it head at the old nasuverse with newer feats/statements and characters.
Why are you even debating me then? Lmfao. I assume you have full knowledge on the original canon. Just because the feats/statements are new it doesn't make them more valid. There is no point in wasting any further time.
That says it all right there.
Brocken record. but she would be on the same level as beasts then.
Already debunked.
Opposite. foreign god/yog sloth alone solos.
Servants are supersonic. Tsukihime low tiers are lightning timers. Do the math.
other than her own statements, saying shes weaker than beasts and PM. and Wog saying type mercury is the strongest.
Again already debunked.
Is the root even valid? it cant do shit. and is only there for connection or a buff/mystery. its shit otherwise.
and no one in the nasuverse scales to the root
There is really no point in continuing this, since you admitted to know nothing on the old Nasuverse. I'm not going to reply anymore.
They do not =, nasu even said Go and CCC can NEVER be implented with the likes of his older series.
Akasha does not care about this. Akasha is not limited to timelines.
Who said anything about Akasha?
Cool and all, but arcuied doesnt scale to it, neither does she effect other nasuverse earths.
She does, she is outright stated to be above Void. She IS the Earth's Type. Imagine the Type of Earth not being able to affect her own planet.
Yeah thats crazy, because shes never effected Gos earth, CCC earth, Stay nights earth, KKK earth, and Knk earth.
It really shouldnt. otherwise you have zeltretch nuking everyone with EA and all other nps.
What do you even mean? Zelretch has a tiny connection. He is just vaguely connected because sorcery. He doesn't have direct access to Akasha like Void and Archetype.
LMAOO, you belive its vaguely connected? when his ability is outright from the root and only works because of his direct access like a magincian? how do you not know this. anywways its fanon and personal head canon for arc to have connection to the root. and again your using assumption.
this is also ignoring how certain abilties have a unique existences.
Akasha does not care.
Akasha is akasha. Void is not using EA because of its uniuqe existence to gil.
again, anything that has narrative manipultion solos fate.
Already debunked. And narrative manipulation is overwanked anyways. It comes in different forms and limitations.
It only seems that you have little idea what narrative manipultion actually is. let alone plot manipultion.
and Type mercury >>>>>> Achertype > (Beasts/Grands)>>>> Void
Type Mercury is featless and has nothing putting him in Void's league, let alone Archetype. There's nothing even putting him above Type-Moon right now except vaguely being stronger than some Types. Beasts are fodder to Void. The game itself says that she is all powerful if she actually bothers to use her connection to the Root. A shadow of Void that doesn't use her connection saying that she can't beat them means nothing. She was already placed as second on a list that included Primate Murder.
no it doesnt, and id know because i play GO. nowhere does it say that. if your using that, we can say natsu didnt mention the root in his statement about arc and was strictly talking about her Mystic eyes that can see further than shikis. (And if not, then we have beasts being connected to akasha. which tiamat herself is vaguley connected)
Plot manipultion more than narrative manipultion. theres a diffrence. as one edits the story, other edits the plot.
That's the exact same thing.
? the plot is the order of the story and what should happen. the narrative is the story in its entirtey.
An FAA from just the words youve told me can already erase the god tiers of the nasuverse.
You're knowledge on Nasuverse is severely lacking.
You only know CCC, And tsuki. everytime you try to say shit about GO you fail, because your knowledge on the new meta gods in type moon are lacking.
your limiting powers and abilties because you dont belive them. but ill do you one better.
No, you have to use logic to debate because that's what debating is. Trying to reach a logical conclusion on something. If you abandon logic, which you can do for both characters, there is nothing to debate.
guess we cant have reality warper debates because those mfs also defy logic. thats why we use feats
theres no such thing above narrative erasure as the character and its very idea/concept was never made and there respective concepts.
There is no such thing above narrative erasure. I agree. It's just conceptual erasure done through a certain means though.
Im not going to even say anything, just do a search.
Your really comparing higher dimensions to fucking narratives?
Higher dimensions can easily be narratives. Umineko higher dimensions are narratives. You do know there's a difference between the idea of reality>fiction in fiction and real life reality>fiction right?
Indeed, but theres no diffrence when a lower narrative views a higher narrative. even if there higher dimensional
Reality>fiction in real life means the fictions we write literally do not exist. While in fictions like Umineko, it just means there is a higher layer that transcends the lower layer as if it were a story, but those worlds still actually exist. It's honestly just infinity differences with some extra potential perks.
not going to even bother on how wrong this is.
put it in, that narrative manipultion >>>>>>> Conceptual manipultion >>>>>>>> Law manipultion.
I really don't know why make claims on things you know nothing about.
All of these things can be completely equal. Narrative manipulation in of itself is a concept. Concepts can be apart of a story as well. Law manipulation can reach the conceptual level and you can have conceptual laws. None of these three things are inherently superior to each other. Context is needed.
assumption at its finest. anyways, if i were to explain it. narrative (story), (Concepts) ideas in the story, (Laws) rules of the story.
Other than fiction layers have there own set of dimensions that already make those dimensions in the lower fiction nought.
I don't know what you're saying here. But if you're trying to say lower narratives literally do not exist compared to higher narratives, this is wrong, because these narratives don't work like literal real life narratives.
We dont have narratives. we just view fiction as fiction. and so would beings with higher existences (narrative) in there story. see fiction as fiction. they will see a comicbook they make as fiction and non existing. and so would these higher beings who would view the lower fiction as just fiction. and not real. AND never is it implied or logical to say fiction doesnt exist.
And trust me, you don't want them to. Since it basically means you are transcending something that doesn't exist and it isn't even a feat.
honestly a blatant misunderstanding of narratives.
this shit is so illogical
Weren't you the one explicitly arguing for illogical things in multiple threads now?
YESSIR! because there actually fictional beings who just shit on our logic. and dont have to abide by it.
can BB now beat you up because of that? because being a lower fiction makes it impossible for her to do shit.
No it doesn't because the difference isn't literal like fiction being actually non-existent compared to our real life. The narratives transcended in Umineko are real worlds. Higher narratives just transcend them and are superior in a similar way to higher infinities.
its the same as them making a comicbook. the events of the comic books stories are real to them but fiction to the higher being. these higher infinties are in no way attributed to it. and are usually interwinded with dimensional tiering which outerversal beings shit on.
Closer than arcuied and void to it.
False, just like Featherine is close to the omnipotent realm of the creator, Void has a large access to Akasha and can do "just about anything" with it.
who has the feats? and no anti feats? feathrine. who was scared of human killer? Void.
if there arguments on her beating hajun then she defintley beats those two.
the Shinza god-tier who is shit compared to even base BB? Sure.
Is that bias i see?
yes they are
No they are not. You already admitted to have no knowledge on the old Nasuverse. Red Arcueid is already equal to Type Moon. Archetype is massively beyond the other Types.
Nowhere implied. like AT ALL. shes only above the fodder like type moon. who even zeltretch could deal with but couldnt deal with a giant spider.
and nasu said theres nothing on/in earth that can defeat type mercury.
No, he said something along the lines of its attack power is stronger than anything on the surface of the Earth.
It was "nothing on earth has any power to defeat him, and as long as the battle field is earth. he cant be defeated." So just blatantly saying hes stronger than anyone on earth, and this would actually scale to all versions of earth. because hes in multiple media
Ignoring the fact that he's been on the Earth for a long time and we don't know what time frame it's referring to, Archetype exist in the Reverse Side primarily and Void doesn't actively use her powers and isn't even the active personality of Ryougi.
When they say nothng on earth can defeat him (even in tsuki) they mean it. and he scales above the likes of beast and the foreign god. who already shits on Void.
(As weve also seen how "REAL" types dog any feats for crimson moon who barely is one like arcuied)
How the hell is TYPE-MOON barely a Type?
How tf u need 2 planets to both give energy n shit. to actually make a type. hell earth can barely even make a full type (and almost every tuesday is getting taken over).
No Type has a feat as good as Arcueid and Type-Moon's moon drop, which was done even by Wallachia using 30% of Arcueid's power. All Type-Jupiter did was have his core vaguely scorch a continent after losing to Ado Edem.
Type-Saturn could be interpreted to be vaguely above Jupiter and the others since it seemed to be the leader or head of the attack on humanity. Going by feats, 30% Arcueid embarrasses Type-Jupiter and just slams a moon onto it.
Other than those mfs just being completley invicible unless injected with grain on the level of actual fucking continets and a sword that in itself brings back gaias old reality marble.
weaker than type mercury by WoG
Proof or get out.
already above. since nasu said nothing on earth can defeat him, and if the battle field is on earth he can never lose. already scaling above the likes of planetray destroying weapons. human universe destroying weapons. fays and many more.
void being weaker than beasts.
You mean a shadow of Void who never uses her connection to the Root, but rather fights only with her sword and Mystic Eyes? Yeah, that's surely an accurate representation of Void's true power. The actual Void was already placed above Primate Murder by Nasu himself. The game itself states that Void is all powerful with her connection and that parameters becomes meaningless to her, placing her above the whole setting of GO, unless you can prove that stats are meaningless for Beasts as well. It's always funny seeing Void and Archetype downplayers try to mental gymnastic their way out of Nasu directly putting them as the top 2.
How many times do i have to tell you. void never got weaker, she basically became stronger and is never stated to even be weaker. and its also funny how you try to do mental gumnastics to scale arc to the root.
Theres never been such a notion of void being a shadow of her former self
" So that you won't feel sadden when you wake up from the dream and disappear from her side, she - who is nothing more than an illusion - will not leave behind any meaningful memories." - Profile of Shiki (Saber)
She is nothing more than an illusion. She is not the real Void.
Cap
infact she got stronger as a servant than a human.
Nice fanfiction. Servant containers literally can't even contain the full power of a Heroic Spirit. You think it can contain God?
Yes because void is weak af as a human. and her connection was changed.
"Fanmade term" its an ability to counter the omnipotence paradox and is already better. (And you yourself using that logic)
The counter to the omnipotence paradox is either that omnipotence can do all things logical, and illogical things are not things and so don't count as restrictions for not being able to preform, or that omnipotence transcends all logic and reasoning and that discussing its mechanics is beyond our capabilities.
so your agreeing with me, nice.
assumption + wank. good combo.
What do you mean... He literally did this.
He made Kiara reach True Demon status and fuse with the Moon Cell all due to him manipulating the plot.
Akasha records all things in existence and Void almost has full access to it and can do "just about anything."
Archetype even less-so.
thanks for confiriming its plot manipultion. and arc wouldnt be able to do anything to the likes of getting rebooted by featherine.
Your saying she scales to akasha, who in your words can do the impossible and illogical things.
Having a large access to Akasha doesn't make her omnipotent. Only Akasha itself is omnipotent, Archetype is nowhere close to-omnipotent. And i only said that in order to show how your logic of illogical things can backfire.
didnt mean shit since i already know why omnipotence is above metapotence.
and your also saying she has all abilities.
Akasha has recorded every ability in the Nasuverse, it's only natural for them to be able to use them.
With no feats? thats like saying Gil has weapons he is specifically shouldnt have.
Yeah nada, nothing. all i know is GO which basically shakes it head at the old nasuverse with newer feats/statements and characters.
Why are you even debating me then? Lmfao. I assume you have full knowledge on the original canon. Just because the feats/statements are new it doesn't make them more valid. There is no point in wasting any further time.
That says it all right there.
Brocken record. but she would be on the same level as beasts then.
Already debunked.
Never did. void got stronger in a servant container, and her connection was fucked over
Opposite. foreign god/yog sloth alone solos.
Servants are supersonic. Tsukihime low tiers are lightning timers. Do the math.
Base servants in fake, already hit lighting timers easily. this isnt 2005. there even ftl
other than her own statements, saying shes weaker than beasts and PM. and Wog saying type mercury is the strongest.
Again already debunked.
again, never did and you failed to
Is the root even valid? it cant do shit. and is only there for connection or a buff/mystery. its shit otherwise.
and no one in the nasuverse scales to the root
There is really no point in continuing this, since you admitted to know nothing on the old Nasuverse. I'm not going to reply anymore.
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