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#1 Posted by TonyMartial (9685 posts) - - Show Bio
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Team is Ollie, Diggle, Roy and Laurel

All get standard gear

Takes place civil war airport.

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#2 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27728 posts) - - Show Bio

Falcon destroys them in this particular location.

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#3 Posted by GateOfBabylon (4366 posts) - - Show Bio

Between Ollie, Roy, and Laurel, I think one of them might be able to ground him. Once that happens he's finished.

Falcon has good firepower though, so it won't be an easy fight. I can see him taking some rounds as well.

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#4 Edited by RBT (28490 posts) - - Show Bio

Any particular reason why Oliver doesn't solo?

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#5 Edited by BreakOfDawn (2320 posts) - - Show Bio

Not seeing how team Arrow doesn't beat him. Hell, Oliver's far more skilled in H2H and he's easily got the accuracy to tag him eventually. He could probably solo. Throwing in Laurel with the canary cry gives the team a solid win.

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#6 Posted by DavidHarewood14 (1460 posts) - - Show Bio

Not seeing how team Arrow doesn't beat him. Hell, Oliver's far more skilled in H2H and he's easily got the accuracy to tag him eventually. He could probably solo. Throwing in Laurel with the canary cry gives the team a solid win.

this

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#7 Edited by DavidHarewood14 (1460 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000 said:

Falcon destroys them in this particular location.

Oliver easily will tag him and shot him. i agree he is very slightly inferior marksman in archery to falcon;s equal Clint but much more competent, smarter and faster. Ollie wins

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#8 Posted by TonyMartial (9685 posts) - - Show Bio
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#9 Posted by DavidHarewood14 (1460 posts) - - Show Bio

@davidharewood14: Falcons combat speed and reactions are insane tho

Sure but don't underestimate Oliver. He can be unpredictable. And in close range he could also hit weak point like he has beaten Atom or one guy hitting acurate nerv ( Don't remember which episode ) to completely disable him to shot with gun. But yeah Falcon is great with tagging shrinked Ant Man )

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#10 Posted by Amcu (16895 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

Any particular reason why Oliver doesn't solo?

Not saying he'll necessarily lose but from what I understand Oliver's best speed accuracy feat is shooting an arrow out of the air and Tony casually replicated that multiple times in the Civil War airport scene. Yet he struggled to tag Falcon in combat. I imagine Oliver would struggle as well.

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#11 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27728 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver couldn't tag Hawkman randomly flying around with his back turned. He's not touching Sam, he's not Hawkeye.

The best he could hope for is a quickdraw in the beginning of the fight, but even in that category he has a bunch of inconsistencies through his fights with lower level street tier opponents.

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#12 Posted by RBT (28490 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu said:
@rbt said:

Any particular reason why Oliver doesn't solo?

Not saying he'll necessarily lose but from what I understand Oliver's best speed accuracy feat is shooting an arrow out of the air and Tony casually replicated that multiple times in the Civil War airport scene. Yet he struggled to tag Falcon in combat. I imagine Oliver would struggle as well.

Oliver has far better projectiles than Tony though.

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Earth X Oliver used the same arrow to tag Black Condor(same tech as Falcon).

Not to mention, Oliver is overall better than Tony when it comes to draw speed and accuracy.

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#13 Posted by RBT (28490 posts) - - Show Bio

Oliver couldn't tag Hawkman randomly flying around with his back turned. He's not touching Sam, he's not Hawkeye.

The best he could hope for is a quickdraw in the beginning of the fight, but even in that category he has a bunch of inconsistencies through his fights with lower level street tier opponents.

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No, Oliver only tagged Hawkman while on a freaking bike. I can just hope someday you're gonna get tired of repeatedly being wrong about Arrow characters. It almost seems like you enjoy getting schooled over and over again.

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#14 Posted by Amcu (16895 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: I guess if he uses that he could win.

What would you say are Oliver's best speed accuracy feats? Cause I thought the best one was cutting an arrow in half and Tony has done this.

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That first one in particular is impressive because Tony dodged the arrows while also casually shooting them out of the sky, even the two that had passed him.

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#15 Posted by RBT (28490 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu: Shooting the arrow is definitely up there. Are you asking about draw speed or movement speed?

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#16 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27728 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt:

Pretty sure that's just the arrow been dodged given half a second later Carter has absolutely nothing on his suit. Also consistent with how he couldn't land a hit on him ever in the rest of the scene, rather than using bad quality to make this into something it isn't.

And I just hope that some day you're gonna get tired of being salty as heck enough to be an arfhole to people about your beloved fictional muh Arrow feats.... All in due to time I guess.

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#17 Posted by RBT (28490 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000:

Pretty sure that's just the arrow been dodged given half a second later Carter has absolutely nothing on his suit. Also consistent with how he couldn't land a hit on him ever in the rest of the scene,

But...but, we literally hear the arrow connecting. How did you even miss that? Or you didn't but just chose to ignore it, because why not?

rather than using bad quality to make this into something it isn't.

Yeah.. and they decided to throw in the sound effect with terrible video quality as well. Keep digging.

And I just hope that some day you're gonna get tired of being salty as heck enough to be an arfhole to people about your beloved fictional muh Arrow feats.... All in due to time I guess.

Hey, I'm not the one who starts pretending they were baiting when their argument falls flat on its ass as it always does with you when you open your mouth in an Arrow thread. But if it makes you feel better, then sure.

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#18 Posted by DavidHarewood14 (1460 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu said:
@rbt said:

Any particular reason why Oliver doesn't solo?

Not saying he'll necessarily lose but from what I understand Oliver's best speed accuracy feat is shooting an arrow out of the air and Tony casually replicated that multiple times in the Civil War airport scene. Yet he struggled to tag Falcon in combat. I imagine Oliver would struggle as well.

Oliver can easily dodge from close range Atom blasts or OVERGIRL HEAT VISION. He can dodge bullets from close distance without watching at them and without expecting them ( like Diggle ). Oliver has many feats he can on his own "switch on slow mode" like tagging in slow mode motorbike in S1 easily recognising potential assasin who tried to kill his mother. Or tagging Black Arrow projectile as he was speedster.

To me CW Oliver Queen is probably even superior to his comicbook counterpart.

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#19 Posted by SexyBayonetta22 (2352 posts) - - Show Bio

@tonymartial said:

@davidharewood14: Falcons combat speed and reactions are insane tho

Sure but don't underestimate Oliver. He can be unpredictable. And in close range he could also hit weak point like he has beaten Atom or one guy hitting acurate nerv ( Don't remember which episode ) to completely disable him to shot with gun. But yeah Falcon is great with tagging shrinked Ant Man )

But remember he can even sense completely quiet and TRULY invisible to humans beings like casually sense chameleon mode Vixen ( freaking Flash couldn't even notice and not mentioning she changed her position on the building ):

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#20 Edited by Helloman (30115 posts) - - Show Bio

Falcon wins.

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#21 Edited by GateOfBabylon (4366 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: What's Ollie's greatest feat when it comes to tagging fast-moving targets? It would seem you'd know best, I'm genuinely curious since I want to make a better judgment. Falcon has shown crazy agility and maneuverability in the air in TWS and Civil War, not to mention his wings have a lot of functionalities.

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#22 Posted by RBT (28490 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: What's Ollie's greatest feat when it comes to tagging fast-moving targets? It would seem you'd know best, I'm genuinely curious since I want to make a better judgment. Falcon has shown crazy agility and maneuverability in the air in TWS and Civil War, not to mention his wings have a lot of functionalities.

Shooting arrows.

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Tagging Hawkman(gif in post #13).

He also tagged a moving helicopter while in mid-air, mid-flip.

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#23 Edited by Amcu (16895 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

@amcu: Shooting the arrow is definitely up there. Are you asking about draw speed or movement speed?

I'm asking about the speed at which they fire. As in who will get a shot off first.

Oliver's task of pulling an arrow out of his quiver, knocking it and firing it would be more complex and difficult, and would likely require more actual speed on his part. But that doesn't matter much in him actually trying to land an arrow on Sam.

The reason I'm asking is because Tony didn't seem able to tag Sam while they where in aerial combat.

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Nor did Rhodey though admittedly Rhodes doesn't have as good feats as Tony does.

We should also consider Sam's performance against the Helicarriers IMO. That showed excellent aerial maneuverability.

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He dodged a huge number of weapons simultaneously.

It should also be noted that according to the Internet Movie Firearms Database this weapon here appears to be a Phalanx CIWS. Link(Its near the bottom of the page). If you listen to it you'll notice it also sounds identical to a CIWS.

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Mind you a Phalanx CIWS is a real world close in weapon system that is in use with many nations militaries, with the most notable of those being the U.S. Navy. It is designed as a last ditch defense to intercept incoming anti ship cruise missiles before they reach the ship they are targeting. It has also been used effectively against artillery and rockets. I'm pretty sure all of those things are far faster than arrows and it can intercept them all yet it failed to tag Sam despite him also having to deal with a huge amount of other weapons focusing on him.

I think I also spotted multiple other types of Close In Weapon System firing at him and a RAM(which is also used to shoot down anti-ship missiles) but I'm not sure if the RAM was firing or not.

Overall regardless the feat is extraordinary. That he is dealing with so many different weapons firing at him including at least one and almost certainly more than one that can intercept anti ship cruise missiles, that's quite insane.

I just really feel that Oliver will struggle to tag him unless I'm aware of some other feats for his accuracy. He may be able to win via the explosive arrow that you noted but that would be his only chance from what I'm aware of IMO.

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#24 Posted by GateOfBabylon (4366 posts) - - Show Bio
@rbt said:

He also tagged a moving helicopter while in mid-air, mid-flip.

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I'm just really really impressed by that helicopter feat. Consider me convinced.

I should try catching up on Arrow when I have the time.

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#25 Posted by Stormdriven (17918 posts) - - Show Bio

Speedster fighting, Overgirl level Oliver solos the MCU.

Sam should win this fairly easily.

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#26 Posted by RBT (28490 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu:

I'm asking about the speed at which they fire. As in who will get a shot off first.

Definitely Oliver. He was able to complete the task of pulling an arrow out of his quiver, knocking it and firing it with perfect accuracy in less time that it took for a grenade from a grenade launcher to move about 10-15ft. Then there are these feats-

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Notice the gaps between subsequent arrows.

I don't see Tony coming close to this level of movement and draw speed.

As for Falcon avoiding getting tagged by Oliver, that's certainly possible. He can fly over a kilometer high and at a ridiculous pace. That will make it tagging him very hard, even for someone like Oliver. But the thing is, Sam is not winning anything doing that. Sure he can avoid getting tagged by flying real high and constantly moving(even that's not a guarantee, especially considering Oliver's trick arrows), but what is that going to achieve? He'll have to come down or slow down to actually attack Oliver and at that range, he is outmatched. In speed, in accuracy, in gear. If he engages in h2h, then he's going to get fodderized. Sam's best bet is Red Wing, but I doubt Redwing can get the drop on Oliver(doesn't Sam has to manually operate Red Wing?)

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#28 Posted by Stormdriven (17918 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Are those comics even canon anymore Post-Flashpoint?

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#29 Posted by Amcu (16895 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt:

Definitely Oliver. He was able to complete the task of pulling an arrow out of his quiver, knocking it and firing it with perfect accuracy in less time that it took for a grenade from a grenade launcher to move about 10-15ft. Then there are these feats-

Sorry I said that way wrong. Should have clarified further. I meant the speed at which they fire along with accuracy involved in that speed. I know that Oliver can fire extremely fast. But I imagine that the faster he fires his arrows the worse his accuracy will be. That's why I think him intercepting an arrow is his best feat of speed and accuracy as a combination. The instance with him shooting 3 arrows one after the other is likely faster firing speed but unless those arrows where hitting an arrow or something like that or faster, they are not necessarily as accurate.

In terms of speed and accuracy as a combination Tony might very well match Oliver.

As for Falcon avoiding getting tagged by Oliver, that's certainly possible. He can fly over a kilometer high and at a ridiculous pace. That will make it tagging him very hard, even for someone like Oliver. But the thing is, Sam is not winning anything doing that. Sure he can avoid getting tagged by flying real high and constantly moving(even that's not a guarantee, especially considering Oliver's trick arrows), but what is that going to achieve? He'll have to come down or slow down to actually attack Oliver and at that range, he is outmatched. In speed, in accuracy, in gear. If he engages in h2h, then he's going to get fodderized. Sam's best bet is Red Wing, but I doubt Redwing can get the drop on Oliver(doesn't Sam has to manually operate Red Wing?)

He may not win immediately by staying airborne but if he gets a feel for how impressive Oliver's accuracy is I doubt he'll want to engage him in close quarters. And at the end of the day Oliver does not have unlimited arrows. Eventually he will run out. A large portion of it was offscreen but Falcon seemed able to dodge out all of the Helicarriers weapons for quite a significant period of time before closing in. I think if he can do that he can do the same to here, staying close enough to Oliver that he's enough of a threat for Oliver to use arrows but far enough that he can deal with them. And this time he can just wait until Oliver runs out of arrows.

Its not a difficult strategy. It could work. Now I'm still not saying that Sam will necessarily win this fight. I can see the team doing something to stop him, but I think tagging him will be hard and if he plays his cards right he has a shot at being a serious problem for them.

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#30 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27728 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Edited by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

Falcon stomps tbh. Nothing they can really do about his speed + mobility. And literally everything in his arsenal can potentially one-shot.

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#34 Posted by RBT (28490 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Are those comics even canon anymore Post-Flashpoint?

Why not? Entire Arrow S1/2 and 3 happened pre Flashpoint. I mean sure, there is no guarantee that a particular scene in S1 happened or not(after Flashpoint), but unless there is evidence that it definitely didn't we should assume that it did.

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#35 Edited by ANTHP2000 (27728 posts) - - Show Bio

Smh with these Flashpoint canonicity discussions

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#36 Posted by JSDoctor (1645 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Arrow should take this.

I think that the issue with the Iron Man scaling is that Tony's pretty much stationary whilst arrow-timing, but moving at rapid speeds and changing direction quickly when he fights Falcon. And trying to shoot a target whilst moving quickly is far more difficult than doing so whilst relatively still. Still a good feat though, as is the helicarrier one.

On the issue of Hawkman - it's possible to justify that feat using Carter's speed. In Legends he could very casually deflect Savage's knives, and whilst he wasn't the most consistent character his skill throwing knives didn't fluctuate as much as his cqc did. He has that feat against Barry from the crossover which makes Carter pretty fast by scaling, enough that I can definitely buy him being an arrow-timer. Even if that's not the case then it's probably just a low showing.

Oliver has other feats like shooting arrows (requiring more speed and precision) and the helicopter feat (probably also better, or at least comparable), and they significantly outnumber his lower showings. He should also scale from E-X Arrow, who has good feats tagging that world's Falcon stand-in, and he was avoiding heat vision from Overgirl. Oliver also has explosives that he didn't use against Hawkman but certainly could here.

And that's before throwing in the others. Roy is accurate, but probably not good enough to tag Sam (his best feat is shooting a knife out of someone's hand whilst falling). Diggle I'm unsure about - he has a couple of very good marksmanship feats (taking out a squadron whilst parachuting, shooting a Dominator in the eye). Laurel's cry has decent AoE, so will mess Sam up if he gets close enough to be affected. I don't remember exactly what the cry's range was.

I do not see Sam avoiding all of their shots whilst tagging them - particularly considering how good some of their aim dodging feats are.

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#37 Posted by ANTHP2000 (27728 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly don't think Falcon is even street level in such an open area. Pit them in a warehouse and I'd bet on Oliver, but just looking at what Sam can do in the Battle of the Triskelion, Wakanda, Lagos and the Clash of the Avengers it's honestly overkill. He can blow them all up using Redwing and they won't even be able to dodge it from directly above them.

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#38 Posted by FireStarLord73194 (5283 posts) - - Show Bio

Falcon has a drone on his back that shoots machine gun rounds and can detonate and he can react to a blast from vision and can fly pretty fast. Not sure how any of team arrow can do anything

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#39 Posted by RBT (28490 posts) - - Show Bio

@amcu:

Sorry I said that way wrong. Should have clarified further. I meant the speed at which they fire along with accuracy involved in that speed. I know that Oliver can fire extremely fast. But I imagine that the faster he fires his arrows the worse his accuracy will be. That's why I think him intercepting an arrow is his best feat of speed and accuracy as a combination. The instance with him shooting 3 arrows one after the other is likely faster firing speed but unless those arrows where hitting an arrow or something like that or faster, they are not necessarily as accurate.

In terms of speed and accuracy as a combination Tony might very well match Oliver.

I don't really know how much Oliver's accuracy will be affected. He doesn't need that much time to aim.

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I mean this entire thing happened in a fraction of a second and Oliver was accurate enough to tag a moving arrow. Sure, he's using a flechette, but it still shows how quick he is to aim.

He may not win immediately by staying airborne but if he gets a feel for how impressive Oliver's accuracy is I doubt he'll want to engage him in close quarters. And at the end of the day Oliver does not have unlimited arrows. Eventually he will run out. A large portion of it was offscreen but Falcon seemed able to dodge out all of the Helicarriers weapons for quite a significant period of time before closing in. I think if he can do that he can do the same to here,

I don't think Oliver would fall for that tbh. If Sam deliberately tries to waste Oliver's arrows, Oliver would catch on.

staying close enough to Oliver that he's enough of a threat for Oliver to use arrows but far enough that he can deal with them. And this time he can just wait until Oliver runs out of arrows.

I don't think that's possible. Oliver is a threat from a larger range than Sam is. Sam's accuracy while moving fast is non-existant.

Its not a difficult strategy. It could work. Now I'm still not saying that Sam will necessarily win this fight. I can see the team doing something to stop him, but I think tagging him will be hard and if he plays his cards right he has a shot at being a serious problem for them.

I agree to a degree. Tagging Sam will be hard, but considering that Sam is little to no threat when he is in his full dodge mode, I don't know what that is even supposed to achieve. So Sam flies out of Oliver's reach for as long as he can. Oliver shoots a couple of arrows, misses and then he can simply wait until Sam closes in. Because chances of Oliver tagging Sam is a lot higher than Sam tagging Oliver when Sam is hellbent on dodging everything. Heck, he has never even pulled his gun when moving at those speeds.

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#40 Posted by Amcu (16895 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: That does seem fair.

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#41 Posted by Subline (8391 posts) - - Show Bio

Team.

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#42 Posted by TheSuperor (6793 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt said:

Any particular reason why Oliver doesn't solo?

He would solo stomp if he was an MCU character.

Honestly he should solo

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#43 Posted by Stormdriven (17918 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Comics are secondary canon, and to my knowledge, haven’t been referenced in the show. The show itself takes priority, so it’s questionable whether comics should be included or not.

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#44 Posted by RBT (28490 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Comics are secondary canon, and to my knowledge, haven’t been referenced in the show. The show itself takes priority, so it’s questionable whether comics should be included or not.

They have been referenced before. In fact, a character who was introduced in a tie in comics was later shown in the show. The reason tie ins aren't referenced is because not even 1% of viewers read them. Referencing something that happened in tie in would leave people who don't read it confused. Guggie has said several times that the tie in comics are canon to the show.

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#45 Posted by Stormdriven (17918 posts) - - Show Bio

@rbt: Not necessarily. A lot of time is passed over, whether in between seasons, or throughtout a season, where the heroes can take care of threats or crimes without explicitly showing it. Every little thing doesn’t need to be shown, and the audience doesn’t need to have their hand held for what might as well be a minor nuisance or something that wasn’t worth showing in detail.

And they might have been previously canon, but he’s also worked plenty on the other shows, and different timelines aren’t considered canon with each other anyway. The shows ultimately take precedence, not comics that a very small minority of people will read.

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#46 Posted by RBT (28490 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormdriven:

Not necessarily. A lot of time is passed over, whether in between seasons, or throughtout a season, where the heroes can take care of threats or crimes without explicitly showing it. Every little thing doesn’t need to be shown, and the audience doesn’t need to have their hand held for what might as well be a minor nuisance or something that wasn’t worth showing in detail.

Then I don't know why the complaint is about there not being enough references to comics. If you read Arrow season 1 tie in, it's abundantly clear that they were using those comics to give background stories to characters. China White, Helena, Moira. Take MCU tie in comics for example. How many times has the Avengers prelude been referenced? Or Black Panther one? A couple of times less than Arrow tie in has been referenced. As I said, they directly picked a character that they introduced in tie ins and used her in the show. Not to mention the fact that Queen Manor is burned to the ground in the show. A direct reference to Caleb Green storyline from Arrow 2.5.

And they might have been previously canon, but he’s also worked plenty on the other shows, and different timelines aren’t considered canon with each other anyway.

Different timelines in no way mean non-canon. The entire Arrowverse is a different timeline right now than when it was introduced. After The Flash 1x15. Every time Barry has time traveled, we watch a completely different universe from then on.

The shows ultimately take precedence, not comics that a very small minority of people will read.

Okay, but that doesn't invalidate the tie in comics in any way. I mean, if you use it, as a rule, to not use the tie in feats no matter who you are debating for, then it's fine. But I see nothing wrong with using them.