@shepardoakenprime: I think Evo Storm still wins both rounds since she starts off in the sky. She wasn't that much less powerful without her horseman power boost aside from shooting lightning from her eyes and mouth and having more durability. And unlike TAS(who is more powerful), her powers were pretty instant. She could also hit moving targets with her lightning and drop tornadoes and other wind storms with ease.
I can see her probably creating a fog and taking them all out from a safe distance. She actively trained this team in the danger room, so she'd know what to expect from them.
@storm_calling: Nice gifs! I agree if Storm does what she did to Apocalypse or drops a tornado on them or uses fog then she should handle them just fine but if she doesn't all but one member of the team can keep her busy with ranged attacks if given the chance. Jean and Kitty could also keep everyone from being swept away from wind while Berzerker can absorb and redirect her lightning. Also when she was upgraded her wind and lightning was overall more powerfull and had a larger aoe but otherwise I see your point. I don't know I tried to put characters that can handle her powers but it all depends on how they use their powers, like Jean could keep her still for Cyclops to blast her for an easy win.
@storm_calling: Nice gifs! I agree if Storm does what she did to Apocalypse or drops a tornado on them or uses fog then she should handle them just fine but if she doesn't all but one member of the team can keep her busy with ranged attacks if given the chance. Jean and Kitty could also keep everyone from being swept away from wind while Berzerker can absorb and redirect her lightning. Also when she was upgraded her wind and lightning was overall more powerfull and had a larger aoe but otherwise I see your point. I don't know I tried to put characters that can handle her powers but it all depends on how they use their powers, like Jean could keep her still for Cyclops to blast her for an easy win.
Thanks, I wanted to demonstrate the speed, power and precision of her attacks. Evo Storm's powers are often underestimated, so I wanted to provide some credible gifs to support my argument.
I'm not so sure about the wind and lightning(certainly possible). Largely because we never got to see Evo Storm truly cut loose on the show and in an open field. When she was fighting the Sentinel in Day of Reckoning, they were in a populated city surrounded by buildings and civilians, so she was likely holding back in that fight. We've seen her powers cover very large areas in numerous instances. And even in a populated area her powers were overwhelming the sentinel so much that it had to flee from the immediate area of her attack.
I think the only time we got a sense of how powerful she could be was when Rogue took her powers, and she was uprooting trees and blowing up buildings in those instances.
Berzerker would be a good candidate for someone to deal with her lightning... If he didn't have the water vulnerability. Storm will just douse him in rain to eliminate him as a threat as Horseman Storm did(or as she did to Pyro above).
And Jean is certainly powerful, especially after her powers grew in Power Surge, but the strength of her tk isn't in the same league as Storm's winds. That was pretty evident when Rogue stole Storm's powers and used them against her, as well as even after her power upgrade when Storm had to hold back the powerful waterspout so Jean could rescue Scott and Alex. She could certainly provide some protection, but I doubt it would be for long.
Evo Storm was a pretty resourceful combatant in the show(her fight with Wolverine and Mystique are great examples), and she knows all of their fighting styles(considering she trained them).
I think she would take the stealth approach and pick them off from a safe distance. Jean wouldn't be able to pull her down if she can't use her telepathy or see her, otherwise I think the other team could pull off a victory based on what she could do. Kitty's powers could certainly pose a problem, but without her air-walking and limited phasing(holding breath), I don't think it'll be enough for them to survive Storm's onslaught.
@storm_calling: Nice feats, but Jean is most likely Storms equal i for she were to truly to cut loose.
If you really take a look at her power surge feat, you see the Professor as well as on-screen saying that Jean is manipulating matter on a molecular level. The only thing is Jean usually holds back quite a lot, which is why I'm not saying Jean solos, especially without her telepathy. And if you look at that same Rogue feat, Jean during her weaker days was the one protecting Storm and Scott from Rogue long enough for Rogue to teleport out, which should give the impression that she would've succumbed, but this is her in her weaker phase. In that same water spout feat, inher stronger days, Jean was there saving Scott and Havok from the Storm as Storm calms it. Then we have her controlling helicopters, bending their blades, flipping cars over into trees, containing an explosion, and holding back a dam filled with water long enough for Iceman to freeze the opening. We also have Jean breaking a stone wall in a fit of rage with ease.
@storm_calling: Agreed her showings even when low were pretty impressive, her upgrade just kind of finalized it like how she completely tore sentinels apart with a tornado compared to when she just kept one back.
Yeah I would expect Storm to use Berzerker's weakness but if he fired back quicker it might be too late. He also seemed to still be powered up after he absorbed a continuous stream and he might know she would try it again.
Alone Jean probably wouldn't be able to hold out long but then that's why I added Kitty, also do you mean that she needs to hold her breath to phase? I think she only did that going underground, when Wanda stopped her mid phase she screamed for help and I could've sworn she had done the same multiple times.
@del_torro: Rogue isn't on this team I didn't think she would be too useful unless she was able to absorb her unconscious teammates powers but I doubt she would get the chance. Didn't mean for the picture to be misleading it's the closest match to my team I could find.
If you really take a look at her power surge feat, you see the Professor as well as on-screen saying that Jean is manipulating matter on a molecular level. The only thing is Jean usually holds back quite a lot, which is why I'm not saying Jean solos, especially without her telepathy.
I don't doubt the team could take Storm if Jean's telepathy was allowed in the fight. This would allow Jean to direct attacks, even from other team members, at her. But Storm has key advantages here that would allow her to combat Jean's power. With her already being in the sky, she will use stealth, which will prevent Jean from directly targeting her powers at her.
And if you look at that same Rogue feat, Jean during her weaker days was the one protecting Storm and Scott from Rogue long enough for Rogue to teleport out, which should give the impression that she would've succumbed, but this is her in her weaker phase.
I stated this already. However, Adrift happened after Power Surge, and Storm did the heavy lifting in that instance. Which strongly implies that Storm's winds are much more powerful than Jean's tk.
Rogue's use of Storm's powers was certainly impressive, but this wasn't a focused attack against Jean. It doesn't prove that if Storm were to focus that power against Jean, she wouldn't immediately be overwhelmed by that power.
In that same water spout feat, inher stronger days, Jean was there saving Scott and Havok from the Storm as Storm calms it.
How does this really compare to Storm actually stopping the waterspout in the first place though? It doesn't. Storm had to do all of the heavy lifting in this case because her windpower was much more powerful than Jean's tk. She was even the one who pulled Scott and Alex out of the waterspout for Jean to rescue them in the first place.
The same never could've happened in reverse(in Jean's case).
Then we have her controlling helicopters, bending their blades, flipping cars over into trees, containing an explosion, and holding back a dam filled with water long enough for Iceman to freeze the opening. We also have Jean breaking a stone wall in a fit of rage with ease.
None of these really compare to the waterspout that Storm had to hold back while Jean rescued Scott and Alex. The sheer size and power of it eclipses all of these feats.
As for the helicopters...
She blew them out their airspace with ease
Jean couldn't even do anything to the Sentinel, which was after her power upgrade, meanwhile, Storm was limited to a populated area and was still overwhelming it with her powers. And in all of those cases, Storm wasn't even around when Jean was performing those feats you mentioned. The creators specifically mentioned that they kept Storm off of the show because of how powerful she was and how easily she could've eliminated most of the threats.
I love Jean in the show, but no. She isn't in Storm's league. Magneto, Storm and Xavier were considered to be more powerful. Largely due to them being seasoned adults. Jean certainly has the power to compete with Storm, given that they didn't establish Storm's telepathic defenses on the show. Although they did hint at them in the X-men Evo Book.
This was when Jean's telepathy was out of control and she was hearing everyone's thoughts.
Agreed her showings even when low were pretty impressive, her upgrade just kind of finalized it like how she completely tore sentinels apart with a tornado compared to when she just kept one back.
Exactly. Horsemen Storm certainly wins, but I think a case could be made for base-level Storm as well. On an open field like the X-mansion, she would opt to drop a tornado on them to win the fight, as she did to the Thieves Guild in the Gambit episode. With the Sentinel, she had to be more careful with her powers.
Yeah I would expect Storm to use Berzerker's weakness but if he fired back quicker it might be too late. He also seemed to still be powered up after he absorbed a continuous stream and he might know she would try it again.
Storm would just keep the rain falling. It doesn't seem to be an issue for her. The moment he comes out and tries to strike he will be doused. Horseman Storm didn't seem worried about his electrical attacks due to her enhanced durability(I believe she tanked a direct hit from it), but I see base Storm taking a more tactical approach for his attacks. She will fight smarter. I'm not even sure the Horsemen were fighting with their own minds.
A good example is the Ghost of a Chance episode with Dani Moonstar. Storm conjured a rainstorm to blind the team in the danger room and was able to target a lightning bolt to take out Iceman's bridge without being in anyone's view. Dani got upset and started using her powers on everyone(except Storm, since she wasn't in view). Now, this was all a dream/illusion, but I don't see why the same scenario would not apply here.
It should also be taken into account that Horseman Storm wasn't even focused on him when he hit her with lightning. She was just spamming out lightning bolts and he grabbed one to throw back at her. I doubt an Evo Storm in her right mind would be so careless.
Alone Jean probably wouldn't be able to hold out long but then that's why I added Kitty, also do you mean that she needs to hold her breath to phase? I think she only did that going underground, when Wanda stopped her mid phase she screamed for help and I could've sworn she had done the same multiple times.
Yes, it's one of Kitty's old weaknesses in the comics. When Wanda canceled out her phasing Kitty wasn't in control of it anymore.
@storm_calling: Well you make great points I can't really disagree with lol. Only Kitty did phase a car of a train throug multiple others and she was breathing/groaning heavily before she passed out. I know she doesmt usually talk when doing it but I don't remember that being a thing.
@storm_calling: Well you make great points I can't really disagree with lol. Only Kitty did phase a car of a train throug multiple others and she was breathing/groaning heavily before she passed out. I know she doesmt usually talk when doing it but I don't remember that being a thing.
Thanks, I think this is a great matchup btw and don't believe it is a stomp though(at least for round one).
I don't think Kitty necessarily needs to hold her breath to use her powers, just that she typically does when she phases. Either way, it has a limited duration, as you pointed out with her train station feat(which was impressive).
Again, this is another instance where Storm doesn't appear, as she likely would have solved it before it got this bad. Lol. Storm was able to easily knock over the juggernaut with her winds when he could easily do this to a moving train,
@storm_calling: Heh yeah I try to give the side that might not win the first round better chances in the second just to be fair but I should've looked more closely at her feats, though I also forgot about Jeans impressive defensive tk feats but I'm not sure how long she could keep it up and even if she could then it would likely just be a draw.
Agreed Kitty wouldn't last long phasing I just kinda added her as another chance for the team to get back on their feat.
Certainly have to give them credit for keeping true to their reason why she was barely in the show.
@storm_calling: 1) I can agree on the telepathy and the concealment considering how Storm is normally portrayed, though this version seems more direct in the use of her powers be most versions.
2) Her winds were concentrated on the hurricanes water spout itself. Jean was the one lifting the two young men against the storms winds, meaning whatever Storm wasn't preventing, her telekinesis took the brunt of.
3) You don't know that. Storm merely made the opening for Jean to grab them. Whatever Storm couldn't do at the time was hit with Jeans tk. Yes, Storm did the heavy lifting, but you can't say Jean couldn't have done anything to save the boys if she wasn't given the chance. It couldn't been just as likely with the two of them there that it would've made less room for error if they both were there since Storm has direct control vs Jeans telekinetic direction. It's like the difference between flipping the off switch on a machine vs opening the panel and unplugging or cutting wires. It's less risky to flip the off switch than it would be to go for the inner workings. Same scenario here. This doesn't degrade Storm in any way, but you can't say Jean couldn't have succeeded in getting them out of Storm wasn't there without viable evidence.
4) I'm not disagreeing with the fact that Storm has more developed powers and more skill. I am debating that Storms powers totally eclipse Jean tothe point that it makes this battle a clear win for Storm. Even without her telepathy, Jean still has impressive enough feats to counter Storm temporarily. No, the feats don't compare to the water spout feat, but feats that do compare include the Power Surge feat and the containing an explosion feat long enough for Avalanche to contain it. Jean couldn't hold it forever, but she held it long enough, showing that she has the power to contain large build ups of power like Storms. At 5:10, you see Jean containing the explosion, albeit with great strain, and she was still containing it while Lance was creating a chamber of rock to contain the explosion.
https://youtu.be/NPgecAT77Ko
5) This is no easy win for either of the combatants. A good strategy would be for Kitty to stick by Jean to phase her from Storms lightning attacks, leaving only the wind for Jean. It should also be noted that Jean stopped a full train and could've stopped the front piece of the train had there not been enough track for her to stop it in that same explosion feat.
His showings include overloading two police cars with electricity, absorbing an upgraded Storm's continuous lightning strike no problem and pretty much stalemating a lightning fight against her.
@comic_book_fan: Lol well those instances are 50% of his time on the show he was just one of the new mutants who I don't think we're added till season 3 so it's not a surprise.
1) I can agree on the telepathy and the concealment considering how Storm is normally portrayed, though this version seems more direct in the use of her powers be most versions.
Agreed.
2) Her winds were concentrated on the hurricanes water spout itself. Jean was the one lifting the two young men against the storms winds, meaning whatever Storm wasn't preventing, her telekinesis took the brunt of.
3) You don't know that. Storm merely made the opening for Jean to grab them
Not so. Have a look at the gif I posted.
The waterspout had already sucked Scott and Alex into the funnel before Storm intervened. You hear a powerful wind gust push Alex and Scott clear of the funnel and then we see Storm holding back the waterspout with her winds, after-which she commands Jean to get them now. So whatever occurred before we see Storm, happened as a result of Storm's powers.
Jean wasn't doing anything to combat the winds. Scott and Alex were already clear of the waterspout before we see Storm tell her to get them.
Yes, Storm did the heavy lifting, but you can't say Jean couldn't have done anything to save the boys if she wasn't given the chance.
Yes, I can actually. Based on feats, we have not seen Jean deal with that kind of force with her powers. As you agreed already, her feats that she's showcased throughout the show don't compare. Even containing the explosion doesn't come close.
I agree that she could hold off Storm's powers for a time, but I have provided viable feats to prove that Storm can overwhelm her defenses overtime.
4) I'm not disagreeing with the fact that Storm has more developed powers and more skill. I am debating that Storms powers totally eclipse Jean tothe point that it makes this battle a clear win for Storm. Even without her telepathy, Jean still has impressive enough feats to counter Storm temporarily.
I've already admitted that Jean could potentially hold off Storm's powers temporarily though. That isn't why I believe Storm wins this fight. It's her superior skill, combat prowess and experience over Jean(and the others), and the match stipulations that give her a greater advantage. I'm not saying they can't beat Storm, I'm saying that Storm has a better chance of winning.
She controls the battle field: This equals to stealth and other tactical advantages. Scott can't shoot her, Jean can't grab her, Spike can't throw spikes at her.
She knows all of their skills and weaknesses: She trained them in the danger room. She will know what to expect from them and potentially how to counter them.
She has the most raw power to dish here: No one here can withstand her onslaught indefinitely. Which means, if the team doesn't bring her down quickly, she will eventually overwhelm them with her power.
5) This is no easy win for either of the combatants. A good strategy would be for Kitty to stick by Jean to phase her from Storms lightning attacks, leaving only the wind for Jean.
A fair strategy, if Kitty could keep up her phasing going for an extended period. Sure, she can take breaks, but Storm can keep the pressure on them with her powers if she wanted.
It should also be noted that Jean stopped a full train and could've stopped the front piece of the train had there not been enough track for her to stop it in that same explosion feat.
Duly noted, however, this doesn't change anything. As the train doesn't come close to the power of that waterspout.
@storm_calling: Heh yeah I try to give the side that might not win the first round better chances in the second just to be fair but I should've looked more closely at her feats, though I also forgot about Jeans impressive defensive tk feats but I'm not sure how long she could keep it up and even if she could then it would likely just be a draw.
Agreed Kitty wouldn't last long phasing I just kinda added her as another chance for the team to get back on their feat.
Certainly have to give them credit for keeping true to their reason why she was barely in the show.
Jean was very impressive with her TK in Evo, but it's easy to overlook since she had several low showings early on in the series.
I like your thinking with Kitty. I think putting her there will benefit the team for sure.
Yes, and while I think Storm would've benefited more as a teen on the show, I think she works better as mentor figure to the team. That way she doesn't clash with Cyclops' leadership and Jean's role as the powerhouse. She had other ways to showcase this without stepping on their toes. I would've loved if we got another season honestly.
@storm_calling: 1) Ok, I see now. A little redundant than for her to stop the Storm after they are completely out, then, unless she was making sure their getaway was clear skies, no pun intended.
2) Welp, looks like we agree that Jean could hold off Storms powers for a time. Now we would have to figure out whether the others could use that time to strike or cave under pressure.
3) The train thing was in response to the Juggernaut feat and Jean did lift Juggernaut before fainting from the pressure. Still, did that happen in her stronger or her weaker days? Recalling the show off memory is rather difficult with how old it is.
4) The Storm strategy seems to be a plausible one. I would've given Jean at least mind reading telepathy, though as you said Storm was implied to have some sort of defense, though implications were never all too trustworthy unless backed by some feats that at least relate to them. I remember when Storm was kidnapped, a shaman took her soul to mind-control her. How did the X-Men fair in that match-up?
1) Ok, I see now. A little redundant than for her to stop the Storm after they are completely out, then, unless she was making sure their getaway was clear skies, no pun intended.
Yes, I also think that's what it was. She was making sure the X-jet wouldn't be swallowed into the funnel from the rescue.
2) Welp, looks like we agree that Jean could hold off Storms powers for a time. Now we would have to figure out whether the others could use that time to strike or cave under pressure.
Exactly.
3) The train thing was in response to the Juggernaut feat and Jean did lift Juggernaut before fainting from the pressure. Still, did that happen in her stronger or her weaker days? Recalling the show off memory is rather difficult with how old it is.
Both, however, in the second fight she held him up(with considerable strain) long enough for Cyclops to blast him. The train feat that Juggernaut did was more impressive. He could've just knocked the train car off of the tracks to alleviate the threat. But I'm not knocking Jean. What she did was very impressive. I liked her best in that show.
But going back to Storm, she was actually able to knock over the Juggernaut. Lifting him off of the ground is different since you're just raising his body weight. Forcefully pushing him over after he's already shown those feats against the train and the danger room is a more powerful feat in comparison.
4) The Storm strategy seems to be a plausible one. I would've given Jean at least mind reading telepathy, though as you said Storm was implied to have some sort of defense, though implications were never all too trustworthy unless backed by some feats that at least relate to them. I remember when Storm was kidnapped, a shaman took her soul to mind-control her. How did the X-Men fair in that match-up?
Yeah, I don't think it's enough proof that Storm could contend with Jean in a fight with telepathy or at least with her along with a full team backing her. I think keeping out her telepathy makes it a more even fight.
The Hungan had to break Storm's spirit first with her claustrophobia before he could take control of her. And it took lots of subtle manipulation with his magic to do this. Apparently he had been doing it for weeks.
The X-men fought the Hungan soldiers, but they didn't fight back against Storm. Probably not wanting to hurt her. Her training with Evan earlier in the episode allowed him to listen to the Hungan's incantation through Storm's fog, since they couldn't see him(a strategy I believe Storm will use here) and strike his staff with one of his spikes to free her spirit from his magical staff.
@storm_calling: Well that's a wasted opportunity, but them's the breaks I guess. Could've been a good showing either for the X-Men or Storm had they gone through with her vs the X-Men.
@storm_calling: Well that's a wasted opportunity, but them's the breaks I guess. Could've been a good showing either for the X-Men or Storm had they gone through with her vs the X-Men.
Sorry for the late response. Didn't get a notification. Lol
I think an all-out fight with a mind-controlled Storm in that scenario would've led to some casualties, and since it was Spike's episode, it was important for them to tie him into stopping the threat before it got out of hand.
and she did get a good feat here one shotting Wolverine. Lol
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