@funkynamu: so they win because they outnumber the Sins? Nice argument. With equal speed they get haxxed to death. They got no answer to must of the team's hax.
Escanor, Diane and King are mostly just brutes from what I remember. King has a little utility here and there but nothing too crazy off memory.
Kidd or Zoro should be able cut them down/smash the latter two without much issue.
King is a brute? he can turn a scratch into a fatal wound with disaster, turn it into a fatal illness and so on, istantly petrify them Hancock style. Then we have Gowther...which has 30 different kind of hax that put down most of the supernovas and turn them into allies, merlin can bfr, lock in a perfect cube and so on, Mel can absorb their souls, has better regen that Estarossa who regened from being almost molecularized, hellfire. Ban is immortal, can steal their stats and become stronger, rip their hearts out .... Wanna see how the supernovas win here.
King is a brute? he can turn a scratch into a fatal wound with disaster, turn it into a fatal illness and so on, istantly petrify them Hancock style.
Most of his offense is pertained to inflicting damage onto opponent. Along side utility such as this. From your description, he has to inflict damage to to use that in the first place which is sort of an issue, as a decent amount of Supernova outmatch him in power can just K.O. him .
Ban doesn't need to land anything, Hunter festival steals the strenght from everyone in his area of action. Given that neither team has full knowledge they won't be able to predict that he'd use a similar ability. He can also give his stats boost to others with gift. He is immortal, even if Law halves him he can simply regen back, or simply spam hunter fest .
Gowther can also give full knowledge to team nnt via search light. he needs to touch one of them either physically or with an arrow to mind control them, put them under a nightmare, delete their memories, turn them into allies and so on. You gonna tell me that Supernovas are gonna ko him (won't work, he is a doll, so they gotta destroy him) , while also avoiding hunter fes which depowers them and powers up the sins. Law cutting him in pieces is useless, he can use his arrows even with his arm being detached and without his Sacred treasure. Observation Haki doesnt give supernovas UI, they ae gonna get tagged, especially the ones who can't see the future and the ones who don't have it.He can turn Bonney into an alley without team supernovas noticing it (her rewrites her memories) and she turns them into children for istance.
As in regards of King, this is the descrption of his power: "A slight scratch can develop into a severe wound, mild poisons become lethal toxins and a small tumor can rapidly spread throughout the body". He doesn't need to deal damage himself to them, he turns any scratch dealt to supernovas into fatal wounds. Regarding the supernovas being able to ko him before he can use disaster...you sure? Pollen Garden creates a barrier around him, he tanked several hits from the Demon King who in terms of physical strenght is close to the strongest supernovas. Pollen Garden also heals passively , even fatal wounds.
half of your argument is that supernovas ko team 2, which makes it seem that any supernova can make quick work of team nnt. Even tho . Half of the sins have physical abilities on par with the strongest novas.
The sins are heavily outclassed by many of the supernova's, and I'm not too sure what this overestimation in hax the Sins supposedly have an advantage over. Law is straight up a counter to many, regeneration does not negate its effects given there is no molecular tear of the body parts that they'd be able to even regenerate from. Law's Room acts as spatially removing body parts, ignoring their durability altogether. If you could simply regenerate within room, there's no reason others are able to talk while having their body parts separated from that. A speed advantage is in favor of the Supernova's by a lot, and even if speed is equalized, CoO is still a factor. Such a technique is capable of changing the tiers in speed, like Doflamingo despite being so slow in reactionary speeds Gear 4 is FTE to his perception, yet is able to use CoO to defend himself in time:
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Not to mention, touching isn't something the sins want to engage in doing anyway. Bonney is capable of changing age with touch. Reforming their physical capabilities to an extent they can no longer have access to. Apoo has omnidirectional attacks which are capable of injuring the top Supernova, with this in mind, the Sins would be bombarded with countless attacks they cannot fend against, and then the power difference from the top Supernova. Who are capable of hanging with Yonko that they don't get one-shotted. The Supernova is capable of great teamwork as well, contributing in both offensive and defensive setups without fail, so long their stubbornness isn't getting in the way. Supernova also has numbers to supply with Bege, so the Sins have to focus on more than one target, which they can't do when Law has an instant incapacitation ability, encasing the majority in his range.
Ban can hunter fest them all, making himself stronger and them weaker. He can snatch their hearts right form their bodies if he wants.
Merlin can chrono coffin anybody who is too troublesome, teleport people away, trap people in perfect cube, ect.
King can shield and heal his allies while attacking multiple enemies at the same time.
Gowther can attempt to use mind attacks if haki doesn't counter that.
Meliodas and the one ultimate Escanor are stronger than any of the supernovas imo.
Hawkin's ability might be the biggest trouble since the sins might accidentally start killing themselves, but Merlin could deal with him with the abilities I mentioned and King can heal his teammates if they get injured like I previously mentioned.
Ban doesn't need to land anything, Hunter festival steals the strenght from everyone in his area of action. Given that neither team has full knowledge they won't be able to predict that he'd use a similar ability. He can also give his stats boost to others with gift.
According to this scan Hunter Feast is only temporary
And it isn't instantaneous either. That stat drain happens overtime.
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Meliodas defeated him by accessing some of his tucked away power. Can see Luffy do the same thing with his Gears, which won't be a problem, as he already has stat advantage over Ban to begin with.
He is immortal, even if Law halves him he can simply regen back, or simply spam hunter fest .
Like is said, Luffy could just knock him out with superior stats before HF takes full effect or runs out..
Law's Room technically doesn't amputate. So not sure if regen is applicable here.
Gowther can also give full knowledge to team nnt via search light. he needs to touch one of them either physically or with an arrow to mind control them, put them under a nightmare, delete their memories, turn them into allies and so on.
Referring this things like this?
I don't recall Gowther doing these type of shenanigans to characters anywhere near the stature of the Super Novas
If I'm wrong please proved scan.
You gonna tell me that Supernovas are gonna ko him (won't work, he is a doll, so they gotta destroy him)
Gowther is pretty haxed but one of the weaker Sinn psychically. This will not be an issue what so ever.
while also avoiding hunter fes which depowers them and powers up the sins.
Has he actually done this before? Same as before even if so.
Law cutting him in pieces is useless, he can use his arrows even with his arm being detached and without his Sacred treasure. Observation Haki doesnt give supernovas UI, they ae gonna get tagged, especially the ones who can't see the future and the ones who don't have it.
Scans for arrows? My memory is too foggy
He can turn Bonney into an alley without team supernovas noticing it (her rewrites her memories) and she turns them into children for istance.
That is assuming he doesn't get incapacitated first which is more likely to happen with his far inferior stats
As in regards of King, this is the descrption of his power: "A slight scratch can develop into a severe wound, mild poisons become lethal toxins and a small tumor can rapidly spread throughout the body". He doesn't need to deal damage himself to them, he turns any scratch dealt to supernovas into fatal wounds.
That might be a problem for some of the lower tier Novas. But King is very behind in stats compared to stronger Nova
Regarding the supernovas being able to ko him before he can use disaster...you sure?
I'm very confident they can. King doesn't remotely scale to Meliodas, Demon King or Ecscanor in stats in any way
Pollen Garden creates a barrier around him, he tanked several hits from the Demon King who in terms of physical strenght is close to the strongest supernovas. Pollen Garden also heals passively , even fatal wounds.
I just re-read last Demon King fight and didn't see this. Merlin put up one but don't recall Pollen Garden from King. But Merlin is handicapped this match due to OP's conditions regarding Hawkins.
Half of the sins have physical abilities on par with the strongest novas.
This isn't remotely true at all.
Only Meliodas and Escanor are comparable to Luffy
If you go back and re-read Demon King fight, only Escanor and Meliodas caused physical damage.
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Others only annoyed him at best, like Diane for instance.
And even Zoro and Kidd are shoulders above any Sinn not named Meliodas or Esacanor physically. (argument for Ban but that's about it)
The sins are heavily outclassed by many of the supernova's, and I'm not too sure what this overestimation in hax the Sins supposedly have an advantage over. Law is straight up a counter to many, regeneration does not negate its effects given there is no molecular tear of the body parts that they'd be able to even regenerate from. Law's Room acts as spatially removing body parts, ignoring their durability altogether. If you could simply regenerate within room, there's no reason others are able to talk while having their body parts separated from that. A speed advantage is in favor of the Supernova's by a lot, and even if speed is equalized, CoO is still a factor. Such a technique is capable of changing the tiers in speed, like Doflamingo despite being so slow in reactionary speeds Gear 4 is FTE to his perception, yet is able to use CoO to defend himself in time:
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Not to mention, touching isn't something the sins want to engage in doing anyway. Bonney is capable of changing age with touch. Reforming their physical capabilities to an extent they can no longer have access to. Apoo has omnidirectional attacks which are capable of injuring the top Supernova, with this in mind, the Sins would be bombarded with countless attacks they cannot fend against, and then the power difference from the top Supernova. Who are capable of hanging with Yonko that they don't get one-shotted. The Supernova is capable of great teamwork as well, contributing in both offensive and defensive setups without fail, so long their stubbornness isn't getting in the way. Supernova also has numbers to supply with Bege, so the Sins have to focus on more than one target, which they can't do when Law has an instant incapacitation ability, encasing the majority in his range.
the fact that some of the supernovas dont have observation haki.
the fact that most of the team doesn't have proficient perception haki, let alone see the future.
Bonney turns to child who? Ban who is immortal? Meliodas who is still the same due to his curse? Gowther who is a doll? Merlin who stopped her own time and can switch between her child figure and adult form? Btw, she is utter fodder and irrelevant here.
what tier do you have the sins on ...building level? do you think that bege's goon are somewhat relevant here? like at all? given that you wanna use them as an argument, Gowther turns them into allies for the sins with a single attack, even if they are inside Bege.
and again, neither of the two has observ. haki so dont know how speed being equal favours them. Not that Bege or Bonney where faster to begin with.
You said that the Supernovas hold the physical advantage....even that is debatable. Ban, Mel, Escanor and King are in the same tier , slightly below perhaps but you get what I mean.
You said that you dont know where this overstimation of hax comes from....are you joking?
let's list the supernovas hax:
-ryou which can be used by two users, 1 of which hasnt mastered it yet.
-observation haki, which 3 of them dont have. And only one can see the future.
-regular armament haki, same as above.
- conqueror's haki, only luffy can use it in a useful way to coat his attacks.
-magnetism (Kidd) which isn't hax, like at all
-Urouge can boost himself with each take he receives....useless. Thing is that: he gets mind controlled , bfr, capture into a perfect cube, petrified, his soul gets eaten, a single scratch turns into a fatal wound, he gets turned to ashes, his stats gets stolen. Or simply bodied, given that he is fodder in his own verse.
-Bonnie's hax which only works if she touches her enemy...which wont happen given that she ends up in one of the ways listed above with Urouge. She ends up the same way as when she faced Bullet.
-Killer besides haki doesnt have hax.
-same with Drake.
-you make Apoo sound like he is a big shot? do you think that his attack is gonna harm heavily the sins? be serious.
Also Law's attack would only negate Ban's regen. Mel regens through darkness, so even if he gets cut to pieces he gets back up in no time.
-Law is the only one with actual hax. Let's see:
-Room, the basis of his power.
-shambles. It's useless. Merlin can teleport objects and People around the world.
-gamma knife which he can only use once. And wouldnt work on all of them, given their constitution.
-switching bodies which wouldnt be a problem at all. He used it only on PH, perhaps as a choice to powercreep him.
- Hawkins can use Merlin's doll to deal the same amount of damage to her that he'd receive. Which wouldnt be an issue again for the reasons given above bfr, perfect cube, soul manip, petrification, mind control.
-Zoro hasnt got any hax, besides haki.
can you honestly tell me that observ haki can prevent the following things at the same time:
-thousands of arrows that mind control people, erase their memories, turns them into allies, shutsdown their nervs, puts them into a nightmare.
-bfr, perfect cube, shrinking, existance erasure, teleportation which counters shambles.
-soul manip
-their stats getting drained, and they cant avoid hunter festival without them having full knowledge on it.
- aoe healing which can heal fatal wounds.
-Escanor's sunshine attacks.
all this while any single scratch that they receive turns into a fatal wound,
- avoid being petrified on the spot.
all this while avoiding regular attacks. And no one in the supernovas has the means to end the sins quickly due to stats.
they are gonna avoid all this with regular perception haki? please be serious. 3 of them dont even have basic perception haki, The only one being proficient at it is Luffy.
@wushu59: you can read my post above . I was gonna say the same things to you anyway. Regarding Ban not being in the same tier physically as Escanor and Mel...you serious? Post Purgatory Ban is in the same tier by feats. Regarding Gowther using arrows...it's his gimmick:
each of those can: mind control people, erase their memories, turns them into allies, shutsdown their nervs, puts them into a nightmare.. if someone attacks him physically and he touches them, he does the same thing. You still didnt gave me a counter to Disaster tho. any single scratch done by anyone turns into a fatal wound.
Takes amount strength of everything within 100 ft radius, however this comes with drawbacks. Can only handle it for limited amount out time
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Failed to finish Galand here and can be a detriment to his own teammates from the way it's being described.
But you mentioned him powering his team mates with same method earlier? Do you have scan?
Regarding Ban not being in the same tier physically as Escanor and Mel...you serious? Post Purgatory Ban is in the same tier by feats.
Not during the final Demon King fight he wasn't. What feats? At most he would be the 3rd strongest behind Mel and Ecanor by decent amount. With every other Sinn far behind that.
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Regarding Gowther using arrows...it's his gimmick:
each of those can: mind control people, erase their memories, turns them into allies, shutsdown their nervs, puts them into a nightmare.. if someone attacks him physically and he touches them, he does the same thing.
Do you have a chapter number for this scan? Sounds like a valid threat from your description.
The only issue is Gother is easily the weakest one physically out of anyone here.
Luffy could use his future sight and have one of his teammates hit him with a long ranged attack.
Like so...
Definitely one shot material for Zoro
You still didnt gave me a counter to Disaster tho. any single scratch done by anyone turns into a fatal wound.
This could be a problem if he isn't dealt with soon. But honestly, Law, Hawkins and Bonney's hax are more valid threats then this is.
King is also one shot material for Zoro tier characters and above. Simplistic, yes. But it's the truth.
By feats Zoro could at least scar Kaido. Can not say the same for King/Demon King
Luffy would also still hold speed advantage with Gears making this far more likely scenario
you can read my post above . I was gonna say the same things to you anyway.
Bonney turns to child who? Ban who is immortal? Meliodas who is still the same due to his curse? Gowther who is a doll? Merlin who stopped her own time and can switch between her child figure and adult form?
How does being immortal prevent you from becoming a child? The rest of your points are valid.
Btw, she is utter fodder and irrelevant here.
No she isn't. She can use hax on Ban, King Dianne and Escanor just fine. More then half.
The weaker of the Sinns are Island-Large Island Tier in stats.
Even random side characters like Chinjao and Sai are at least Island lv, let alone Super Nova...
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what tier do you have the sins on ...building level?
Meliodas and Escanor - low to mid end of Large Country AP
Ban - Small-Mid Country AP
Every other Sinn - Island-Large Island AP
Pics might think they are weaker though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
do you think that bege's goon are somewhat relevant here? like at all?
Yup. Against weaker Sinns just fine. Could probably one shot Gother.
given that you wanna use them as an argument, Gowther turns them into allies for the sins with a single attack, even if they are inside Bege.
Not before he gets one shotted for being the weakest one.
Not that Bege or Bonney where faster to begin with.
They should be..... As NNT is only High MHS via feats. I give them Sub-Rel being generous. Scale above lightning decent amount. Not relvent here though.
You said that the Supernovas hold the physical advantage....even that is debatable. Ban, Mel, Escanor and King are in the same tier , slightly below perhaps but you get what I mean.
Absolutely not.
King and Ban do not go in same tier as Mel and Escanor.
let's list the supernovas hax:
-ryou which can be used by two users, 1 of which hasnt mastered it yet.
Still effective
-observation haki, which 3 of them dont have. And only one can see the future.
Better then none. Unlike Sinns
-regular armament haki, same as above.
More damage
-magnetism (Kidd) which isn't hax, like at all
Kidd can one shot 4 out of the 7 Sinns which is relevant
-shambles. It's useless. Merlin can teleport objects and People around the world.
How does that help the ligaments?
-Zoro hasnt got any hax, besides haki.
He can still one shot 4 to 5 of the 7 Sinns. Which you seem to be underrating the value of.
-bfr, perfect cube, shrinking, existance erasure, teleportation which counters shambles.
I don't see how it does.. Please elaborate...
Merlin is also one shot material for Zoro tier characters on top of being Hawkin's puppet per OP
the fact that some of the supernovas dont have observation haki.
Lol. Most of the Supernova have observation haki, confirmed by the databooks and most certainly the relevant ones.
Bonney turns to child who? Ban who is immortal? Meliodas who is still the same due to his curse? Gowther who is a doll? Merlin who stopped her own time and can switch between her child figure and adult form? Btw, she is utter fodder and irrelevant here.
Huh? Being immortal doesn't stop being forcibly reverted to a child. If a immortal can't age as in overtime that doesn't mean they are immune to being reverted back to where they were small. Merlin isn't fodder here. Stop.
what tier do you have the sins on ...building level? do you think that bege's goon are somewhat relevant here? like at all? given that you wanna use them as an argument, Gowther turns them into allies for the sins with a single attack, even if they are inside Bege.
Uh, yes they are relevant? In forming a distraction, the sins wouldn't be able to keep an eye out for every single little thing. Bege's men don't need to have speed or output to hurt them, but creating an overwhelming form of numbers is crucial to this battle.
and again, neither of the two has observ. haki so dont know how speed being equal favours them. Not that Bege or Bonney where faster to begin with.
So, strawman? Who said they had CoO specifically? All I said was CoO was a factor in a speed equal setting, and can still create a disparity in speed.
You said that the Supernovas hold the physical advantage....even that is debatable. Ban, Mel, Escanor and King are in the same tier , slightly below perhaps but you get what I mean.
Yes, the top Supernova are in fact far stronger for multiple reasons, lol. Kidd manhandling Big Mom, Luffy stalemating Kaido, Zoro fighting Top Yonko Commanders, etc. The only thing remotely debatably is hax here.
You said that you dont know where this overstimation of hax comes from....are you joking?
No, I'm serious. You have named hax from the sins that require a setup or is only temporary while ignoring certain things about the Supernova. It's not even remotely as potent as you're making it out to be.
-observation haki, which 3 of them dont have. And only one can see the future.
Irrelevant.
Bonnie's hax which only works if she touches her enemy...which wont happen given that she ends up in one of the ways listed above with Urouge. She ends up the same way as when she faced Bullet.
You're wrong. Law can switch positions, and the SIns aren't in any way shape or form going to massively outspeed Bonney. They will be taken by surprise and overwhelmed.
you make Apoo sound like he is a big shot? do you think that his attack is gonna harm heavily the sins? be serious.
Yes.
Also Law's attack would only negate Ban's regen. Mel regens through darkness, so even if he gets cut to pieces he gets back up in no time.
Very doubtful, but Meliodas gets his body switched.
shambles. It's useless. Merlin can teleport objects and People around the world.
That doesn't make sense. That doesn't tell us why she escapes Shambles or stops her opponents from falling to Shambles given anything within Room Law controls. Law can completely rid her of movements from teleporting anyone.
switching bodies which wouldnt be a problem at all. He used it only on PH, perhaps as a choice to powercreep him.
What? Make it make sense. Law hasn't used in much because at times, he had no reason to or just couldn't because of others having Haki to resist the effects.
can you honestly tell me that observ haki can prevent the following things at the same time:
Yes, it creates a speed disparity.
thousands of arrows that mind control people, erase their memories, turns them into allies, shutsdown their nervs, puts them into a nightmare.
Can be prevented.
bfr, perfect cube, shrinking, existance erasure, teleportation which counters shambles.
Can be prevented, or just wrong.
soul manip
Can be prevented.
their stats getting drained, and they cant avoid hunter festival without them having full knowledge on it.
By far, can easily be prevented by the Supernova.
all this while avoiding regular attacks. And no one in the supernovas has the means to end the sins quickly due to stats.
Alright delein, I'm going to get this settled so we can be quiet about this supposed comparable stats. List the feats that the Sins scale to, and I will do the same for the Supernova. Speed, ignore. Just pure strength.
they are gonna avoid all this with regular perception haki? please be serious. 3 of them dont even have basic perception haki, The only one being proficient at it is Luffy.
Your strawman is crazy. How bad do you deliberately twist my argument.
Technically Luffy would still be faster if base = with his Gears
I honestly think current Luffy would stomp Meliodas, even with equal speed, my point was more regarding Gowther's mind hax, Merlin's, Ban's immortality+snatch/Hunter Fest, etc,. I think Supernova are on average stronger physically. If Gears amp is allowed for Luffy, then I change back my vote to Supernova.
Dianne and Escanor are not haxed
Dianne gets oneshotted, Escanor too, is mostly a brute, so Law solos them both, yes.
And Gother, Merlin and King are one shot material for stronger Nova despite hax
Problem is that so could Gowther oneshot them with his mind hax, and Merlin has some nasty abilities. King gets likely murdered by Zoro with ease.
It's not like Nova are lacking in havingown haxon top of numbers advantage
Yeah ik. In theory, Law can take care of most of them, problem is always Gowther with his arrows spam, and Merlin's abilities, speed equal is always a pain. But if Luffy can amp his speed, he likely can just blitz and pummel them, stomping them in a few hits with Ryou. Overall, I think Supernovas are stronger, but they COULD lose due to hax. I correct myself to that "majority" part, lol.
@pics: I'm gonna keep it short. You said multiple times that my strawman is crazy. You countered most of the hax points with "can be prevented" yet I'm the one who isn't specific or take only parts of my arguments. Then you tell me that I picked hax that needs setup? What setup? Chanting a name? What of those hax requires a setup. I'm curious. Because you make it sound like that it takes ages when people like Bonnie require an actual setup/condition.... Being able to touch people. How is she gonna do it, when she is utter fodder? It ends up the same way as against Bullet, if you wanna make an argument that Sins don't know about her ability, Gowther can give full knowledge to the team via hax such as search light. What counter btw is "I'm doubtful"? Galand got cut in a a half and he regenerates through darkness. Same with higher demons in many occasions like Mel. And again you use Shambles as an argument, when Merlin can do literally the same. And she doesn't need to expand Room like Law first.
Regarding Bege's goons.... This a joke? They would help because they can be used as distraction and because they are in numbers? What kind of reasoning is that? Gowther can turn them into allies with 1 attack with his arrows, King can kill each and everyone of them with Increase, while fighting the Novas at the same time given that in his strongest form he can use 3 forms at the same time.
Regarding this : "Huh? Being immortal doesn't stop being forcibly reverted to a child. If a immortal can't age as in overtime that doesn't mean they are immune to being reverted back to where they were small. Merlin isn't fodder here. "
I make 4 points a bout 4 Sins and you countered one. Fair enough on Ban I suppose even tho she won't tag him due to stats stealing and him being able to hide with 0 sign. Mel can't be turn into a child due to his curse, Gowther is a doll and Merlin xna switch between both forms on a whim. And btw, why would I mean that Merlin is fodder? I meant Bonnie.
You called strawman on the observation haki argument :"So, strawman? Who said they had CoO specifically? All I said was CoO was a factor in a speed equal setting, and can still create a disparity in speed."
Don't know what you are getting at. I was just making a point about Bege and Bonnie that they don't have Coo. Didn't twist your words, didn't took anything out of context. I was just making a point on their reaction speed. Don't know what you got upset about.
I don't think that we'll ever reach an understanding, this reply was meant to end the discussion and to answer to my supposed use of strawman. Let's just leave it at that.
Not even sure what's making Gowther relevant here. He has spamming attacks but can be avoided, halted or just straight up dodged, and avoiding countless projectiles is not troublesome at all, given Luffy has done so with ease. Law sending them back to the opponent, while stopping it in it's tracks.
@pics: Gowther can use the same kind of hax he uses with his arrows by touching or by being in close range with his enemy. For istance against Dreyfus he used his mind manip while he was being impaled.
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