Enemies of the New Republic vs Dark Nest

Avatar image for deactivated-6249a821a8c64
deactivated-6249a821a8c64

1732

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Enemies of the New Republic:

Cronal, Gethzerion and Joruus C´Baoth
Cronal, Gethzerion and Joruus C´Baoth

vs

The Dark Nest:

UnuThul, Lomi Plo and Alema Rar
UnuThul, Lomi Plo and Alema Rar

Versions:

  • Cronal as he appears in Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor
  • Gethzerion as she appears in The Courtship of Princess Leia
  • Joruus C´Baoth as he appears in The Thrawn Trilogy
  • UnuThul and Lomi Plo as they appear in The Dark Nest Trilogy, drawing on the power of the Colony
  • Alema Rar as she appears in Legacy of the Force

Rules:

  • Force only
  • Fight takes place on Dathomir
  • In Character
  • Good Teamwork
  • Starting distance: 25m

Bonus:

1. If Team one loses, restrict Lomi Plo´s usage of invisibility

2. If Team two loses, replace Alema Rar with Dark Nest Jacen Solo

Avatar image for anonymousjedi
AnonymousJedi

1230

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#3  Edited By AnonymousJedi

@darthfallax: Damn, who are half these characters? I mean, that guy in the bottom left doesn't look too well..

Avatar image for deactivated-6249a821a8c64
deactivated-6249a821a8c64

1732

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@anonymousjedi: UnuThul is a dude who was kidnapped by two Sith (among them Lomi), had a horrible shipcrash, and was saved by the Killiks. He bacame a joiner, and as of Dark Nest, kind of their leader (with Lomi Plo being their leader behind the scenes), able to channel tge force potential of the whole colony (trillions of Killiks), even giving 35ABY Luke trouble with his telephatic powers. He was also able to "bend" turbolasers, and it seems like both Jaina and Han considered him to be more powerful than Luke. Though I haven't been able to find the quote for the former -and Jaina could've been biased as Joiner- while the latter, well, isn't force sensitive. In the end though, Luke beat him solidly, but it's still great hype.

Lomi isn't nearly as powerful (though she still drew on the power of a Killik nest iirc), but she has some pretty obscure abilities, and gave Luke trouble several times, though mainly because of her obscure abilities (eg draining his lightsaber, invisibility). The rest all have RTs.

Avatar image for anonymousjedi
AnonymousJedi

1230

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Interesting. I haven't heard of any of these guys before, so it will be interesting to hear who wins.

Avatar image for xolthol
xolthol

976

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Interresting question... Must think

Avatar image for necromancer76
Necromancer76

5415

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Didn’t UnuThul have the ability to beat GM Luke via telepathy?

Avatar image for slayedigneel
Slayedigneel

1923

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for killbilly
killbilly

8912

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#9 killbilly  Moderator

Tentatively siding with team 1.

Avatar image for silver2467
Silver2467

16759

Forum Posts

5315

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#10  Edited By Silver2467

I'm not sure if anyone here is more powerful than Gethzerion on Dathomir, but there's no doubt that Team 2 is comprised of more battle-tested warriors. The power commanded by Unu is vast, and Lomi's Force Webs are extremely deadly.

Might go with Team 2 for now.

EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure who's most powerful here. Need to give that further consideration.

Avatar image for bigsambino87
bigsambino87

1754

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Man, I don't know. This is one of the better battles I've seen. Alema is a non-factor compared to the rest. Cronal was stated as being comparable or even greater than Vader. C'boath was one of the strongest Jedi of the PT era. I personally rank him as being near Dooku level. I don't know much about Geth. Lomi's web's are an incredibly unusual ability that might catch someone from team one off guard. Thul, of course, was able to challenge Luke himself. I think that Team 2 takes it, with Thul being the MVP.

Avatar image for redheathen
redheathen

2721

Forum Posts

31

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#12  Edited By redheathen

Another great match-up! Very interesting. Sadly, I can't argue this one well at all, but Joruus C´Baoth is a lot to contend with. I see that some people are discussing Jorus C'Baoth and not Joruus C'Baoth, and only to their detriment.

Considering that the fight takes place on Dathomir, I give a home team advantage here to Gethzerion, and thus team one.

Lomi Plo...I'm not even sure how she was a Nightsister considering they were destroyed. I'm not sure how she has a connection with Dathomir. If we toss aside at all that stuff about Grievous and Tyranus, then maybe she can have a home field advantage as well. Back to square one...

I have no idea, but I hope more people will post and provide more information.

Avatar image for silver2467
Silver2467

16759

Forum Posts

5315

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#13  Edited By Silver2467

@bigsambino87 said:

Cronal was stated as being comparable or even greater than Vader.

No such thing has ever been stated. I've read Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor twice, and while it may have been some years since either reading, the only time anything like that was ever implied that I recall was during narration from Cronal's own perspective, which is hardly reliable. As far as he was concerned, he was manipulating Vader and the Emperor both, and his estimation of his own usefulness and power doesn't suggest quite what you think it would. It pertains mostly to his arcane Force skills, his Darksight, and his power to influence people and events after foreseeing what will transpire. It has nothing to do with any combat-related power.

In fact, I'm not even sure why Cronal is in this thread at all. His body is so gnarled and weakened by the dark side that he's confined to extensive life-support systems. Blackhole is powerful, but the threat posed by him comes in way of his manipulation and experiments with alchemy, not from his standing as a warrior. If memory serves, he keeps a sword of some peculiar design handy, but there's little attesting to his mastery as a fighter. If this thread intends this to be Lord Shadowspawn, Nick Rostu, then he's also outclassed here. Luke had no trouble at all disarming him and removing the crown of meltmassif controlling him. I love Cronal; he's my favorite character in this thread. But he's out of his element here.

Avatar image for warlockmage
Warlockmage

10596

Forum Posts

29

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 23

User Lists: 3

jeez its been so long since ive read the dark nest...

probably team 2 cuz of Thul but im not set in that

Avatar image for shootingnova
ShootingNova

25785

Forum Posts

313

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#15  Edited By ShootingNova

@silver2467: Cronal may be a weak link, but do you reckon C'baoth and Gethzerion could carry the slack given their demonstrably superlative powers? Granted, Lomi Plo and especially UnuThul are also incredibly powerful, and as a combatant Alema Rar still outshines Cronal.

Avatar image for silver2467
Silver2467

16759

Forum Posts

5315

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#16  Edited By Silver2467

@shootingnova: I'd probably throw my lot in with Team 2 still for the reasons stated. The Colony-crew are more acclimated to face-to-face confrontations, even against notably powerful Jedi Masters. I imagine Gethzerion's eldritch powers may hurt them a good deal, the planet's power-proliferating properties particularly pressuring the party, but I'd still wager Cronal's relative disuse and the war-tried experience of team 2 in addition to their own considerable power would deliver them most wins.

What do you think, Nova?

Avatar image for deactivated-6249a821a8c64
deactivated-6249a821a8c64

1732

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@silver2467: Ah, yes, it's supposed to be Cronal in Rostu's body. You don't think that he could match Alema, especially in force only?

And I'm not sure about UnuThul being a more acclaimed combatant than team 1 - his inexperience was noted several times during Dark Nest, and his only fight scene that I can recall was against Luke, where he was defeated handily.

Avatar image for shootingnova
ShootingNova

25785

Forum Posts

313

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

@silver2467: I think I'm inclined to agree. UnuThul is the most powerful figure here, and I do think Alema could probably kill Cronal.

Avatar image for silver2467
Silver2467

16759

Forum Posts

5315

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@silver2467: Ah, yes, it's supposed to be Cronal in Rostu's body. You don't think that he could match Alema, especially in force only?

Is there any reason I should? I just reviewed the section from LSatSoM, and Luke dispatched Nick/Shadowspawn even more handily than I remembered. His "Sith alchemy" long-sword was bisected by Luke's lightsaber with no resistance, and Luke evaded his clumsy blows with equal grace. All it took to defeat him was one well-placed punch and the swift discarding of the meltmassif crown. That's it.

I don't see why Alema, though of no more magnitude or repute as a Force adept than Luke, should struggle any more than he did.

And I'm not sure about UnuThul being a more acclaimed combatant than team 1 - his inexperience was noted several times during Dark Nest, and his only fight scene that I can recall was against Luke, where he was defeated handily.

He was inexperienced and defeated handily by Luke, yes, but he engaged in a duel that, if memory serves, saw both combatants muster all their strength and speed to undermine each other. Severity of the duel and all that attends with it included, UnuThul exchanged blows for a bit with Luke before being defeated.

That still bodes better for him than three characters with little to no history of carrying or handling weapons.

@silver2467: I think I'm inclined to agree. UnuThul is the most powerful figure here, and I do think Alema could probably kill Cronal.

What makes you think UnuThul is the most powerful? I don't necessarily disagree, just curious.

Avatar image for deactivated-6249a821a8c64
deactivated-6249a821a8c64

1732

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@silver2467: Not sure. I'm not finished with SoM yet, and I added him mainly to see where people rank him.

I'm also not sure why it's a problem that Geth and Joruus never handeled weapons -- it's force only, after all.

Avatar image for jkbart
JKBart

633

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#21  Edited By JKBart

UnuThul is by far the greatest here imo. Luke may job as much as he likes in combat, but Unu's mental pressure inflicted on him is another thing, as well as his vast level of superiority to everyone else in the Dark Nest plot besides Luke himself, all the musings about his insane superiority, etc. I would call him inferior on his own level of skill to people like Jorus and Alema though - he's miniNyax for all intents and purpose. Force only makes this a really great problem for others; Unu is lower as an actual combatant with saber because of his training and mastery vastly below the Force connection he sports. In Force only, their differences in combat skill make little difference.

Unu is just superior to Gethzerion, and her mastery is stacked in a powers of direct destruction, Lightning, telekinesis, and you can't really batter through Unu with raw power. She has the worst skillset to fight Thul. Then you have Joruus, whose power is really in the upper echelon honestly and who should give Unu a fight. If it was the mentally stable real Jorus, it would be better, given Unu's insane magnitude mixed with mediocre mastery. Cronal has lots of tricks up his sleeve, but he just isn't in UnuThul's echelon in raw power, and just lacks the magnitude to overpower him in any way. Unu, by all accounts, wins easily against Gethzerion, wins in a hard fight against Joruus, and either stomps Cronal or gets engaged in a really prolonged, tricky fight.

Alema can be shut down easily on the other hand. She has no answer to Gethzerion's Force power superiority, Geth is just on another level and that's it. She would also meet her end with Joruus as well; Joruus is more powerful and vastly more versatile and masterful, he can answer to anything Alema can pull off and sports a greater output. Cronal is, as always, a little tricky.

Lomi gets herself in a position similar to Alema, but she can hold her own slightly longer I guess.

It's really a fight good enough that it's a toss-up dependent on the specific matchups occuring.

Joruus vs. UnuThul
Gethzerion vs. Alema
Cronal vs. Lomi Plo

Team 1 wins. Gethzerion shuts down Alema way too fast, and she and Joruus can hold her own against UnuThul before Cronal joins in. However, Cronal vs. Lomi Plo isn't really that decided, and the opposite could happen, but even then, Joruus+Gethzerion vs. UnuThul+Lomi would make the odds fairly bad for team 2.

Joruus vs. Alema
Gethzerion vs. UnuThul
Cronal vs. Lomi Plo

This is basically a toss-up. No way to decide if Joruus wins against his opponent faster than UnuThul. The faster one decides the fight for his team.

Joruus vs. Lomi Plo
Gethzerion vs. Alema
Cronal vs. UnuThul

Team 2. UnuThul's mental resistance is too great, Cronal has little hope of using his messed up tricks against him and goes down faster than Alema. Joruus may win vs. Lomi Plo just before Gethzerion gets overpowered by Alema+Thul duo, but that's not enough.

Joruus vs. Alema
Gethzerion vs. Lomi Plo
Cronal vs. UnuThul

Team 2 again, nearly the same reasons.

Joruus vs. Lomi Plo
Gethzerion vs. UnuThul
Cronal vs. Alema Rar

Toss up. Superiors are obvious, but they can win in a very similar time, it all depends on the luck for someone to kick off his opponent first. Gaps are similar.

Avatar image for silver2467
Silver2467

16759

Forum Posts

5315

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#22  Edited By Silver2467

@darthfallax said:

@silver2467: Not sure. I'm not finished with SoM yet, and I added him mainly to see where people rank him.

I rank him pretty highly. In my opinion, he's one of the Emperor's most powerful agents. Based on general hype, knowledge, and learned abilities, Cronal should be more powerful than Lumiya or Mara during their tenures as Emperor's Hands, and in my opinion, he ought to well outclass Tremayne, Kadann, and possibly some of the Dark Side Adepts in overall power.

I've only been so dismissive of him in this thread because his talents are better used for choreographing galactic events than for personal combat. In a situation where Cronal's powers were applied for their ideal use, he exhibited almost Sith-like ingenuity and a callousness that could offend a serial killer: qualities which mark him as a threat of rare proportions.

@darthfallax said:

I'm also not sure why it's a problem that Geth and Joruus never handeled weapons -- it's force only, after all.

Completely overlooked that in the rules. My mistake. I was evaluating this as if the characters have access to their regular weapons.

With that in mind, I think this is probably closer. Eliminating lightsabers strips Team 2 of one of their most practical assets.

Avatar image for deactivated-6249a821a8c64
deactivated-6249a821a8c64

1732

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I rank him pretty highly. In my opinion, he's one of the Emperor's most powerful agents. Based on general hype, knowledge, and learned abilities, Cronal should be more powerful than Lumiya or Mara during their tenures as Emperor's Hands, and in my opinion, he ought to well outclass Tremayne, Kadann, and possibly some of the Dark Side Adepts in overall power.

I've only been so dismissive of him in this thread because his talents are better used for choreographing galactic events than for personal combat.

I assume you mean power as in "usage of the force" and not sheer/raw power or combative usage of the force? If the former, I´d agree that he´s surpassed only by Vader and possiby Jerec among the pupils of Sidious, though the Empire era isn´t my area of expertise.

In a situation where Cronal's powers were applied for their ideal use, he exhibited almost Sith-like ingenuity and a callousness that could offend a serial killer: qualities which mark him as a threat of rare proportions.

Yeah, I really enjoy that. His manipulative character is only matched by few - I can´t recall any, outside of Sidious, Thrawn and Nom Anor in fact. Though I assume guys like Tarkin did something I´m unaware of, while guys like Revan are just not explored enough.

Completely overlooked that in the rules. My mistake. I was evaluating this as if the characters have access to their regular weapons.

With that in mind, I think this is probably closer. Eliminating lightsabers strips Team 2 of one of their most practical assets.

Close enough to change your opinion? For what it´s worth, assume that they have lightsabers, but solely to defend against lightning. I´m not sure if you agree with me here, but personally I´m of the opinion that lightning (or Lomi´s Webs, or possibly even the Rhand forcepush, though Cronal is featless with it iirc, so meh) is incredibly useful in force only battles, as I think that "ragdolling" is thrown around too much -- in most cases it´s a lapse in defense (eg Dooku v Obi, or even Kenth v Kyp), and not a huge powergap like in Luke v Caedus, or Cade v Talon. Also, for what it´s worth, Alema´s TP might be enough to distract someone of team one (like she did to Luke in LotF), while Unu or Lomi could prey on the lapse in defense.


What makes you think UnuThul is the most powerful? I don't necessarily disagree, just curious.

My knowledge on Dark Nest -feat wise- is sketchy, but as no one is answering you, I will try my best (@jkbart you might know more tho).

  • Unu drew on the power of the whole colony, which numbered trillions of Killiks.
  • Luke feared that Unu might would overwhelm him, though it was with the help of surprise

Raynar's eyes grew very dark around the edges, and suddenly Luke could see nothing else. The murky presence began to reach into his mind, trying to push its way inside his thoughts to read his intentions. Luke was astonished by its power and had to reach deeply into the Force to bolster his own strength. Though the probe was hardly subtle or refined, it felt as though it were being driven by a thousand Raynars, and he feared for a moment that in his surprise he would be overwhelmed by its sheer might.

Then he felt Mara pouring her own strength into him, and Saba and even Leia. Together they pushed the dusky hand back. Luke found himself looking once again into the blue, lidless eyes of their host, and he finally began to comprehend just how difficult it was going to be to reach Raynar Thul.

  • Han said that Raynar is more powerful than Luke. I wouldn´t put too much into this, but others might do. I also heard that Jaina mused that Unu was more powerful than Luke, but I haven´t seen the quote for that.
  • Mara implied that UnuThul might be a threath to Luke.
  • He also seemingly bent a turbolaser with TK, but I can´t find a quote for that. Many trustworthy guys talk about it tho, so it seems to be legit.

Out of interest, how would you argue that Geth is more powerful than Unu? Not really a argument, just a possible comparision: Vilas did a Gethzerion-like weatherstorm in one of the YJK books, and he himself was only around Zekk´s level. While Geth did it far better, and Zekk seemed to hold back his power after he was reedeemed 8similar to Kyp or Luke), he still was easily inferior to Brakiss in YJK, and it wouldn´t make sense to me to put any version of Zekk close to Unu in any way. Then again, I doubt that Zekk would rival Geth either. Thoughts?


Lomi Plo...I'm not even sure how she was a Nightsister considering they were destroyed. I'm not sure how she has a connection with Dathomir. If we toss aside at all that stuff about Grievous and Tyranus, then maybe she can have a home field advantage as well. Back to square one...

I have no idea, but I hope more people will post and provide more information.

There´s a huge difference between canon Nightsister and pre-TCW nightsisters. Lomi certainly is, or was, a nightsister. You think the Dathomir advantadge is enough for Geth to turn the tides?

Avatar image for redheathen
redheathen

2721

Forum Posts

31

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@darthfallax I do think that the location is enough, but now we have two Nightsisters so am not sure what will happen considering they both will have that connection. I was really impressed with how strong Talzin was in her fight against Sidious, Tyranus, and Grievous. I don't think they get enough credit.

Yes, I know there is a different story for the NS's. I forgot when I typed the first sentence out.

Avatar image for silver2467
Silver2467

16759

Forum Posts

5315

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I assume you mean power as in "usage of the force" and not sheer/raw power or combative usage of the force? If the former, I´d agree that he´s surpassed only by Vader and possiby Jerec among the pupils of Sidious, though the Empire era isn´t my area of expertise.

Yes, that's what I mean.

There might be a few other powerful Imperial Force adepts I'm forgetting at the moment, but he wouldn't have many superiors overall.

Yeah, I really enjoy that. His manipulative character is only matched by few - I can´t recall any, outside of Sidious, Thrawn and Nom Anor in fact. Though I assume guys like Tarkin did something I´m unaware of, while guys like Revan are just not explored enough.

I enjoy that about him too.

Did you finish the book, by any chance?

Close enough to change your opinion? For what it´s worth, assume that they have lightsabers, but solely to defend against lightning. I´m not sure if you agree with me here, but personally I´m of the opinion that lightning (or Lomi´s Webs, or possibly even the Rhand forcepush, though Cronal is featless with it iirc, so meh) is incredibly useful in force only battles, as I think that "ragdolling" is thrown around too much -- in most cases it´s a lapse in defense (eg Dooku v Obi, or even Kenth v Kyp), and not a huge powergap like in Luke v Caedus, or Cade v Talon. Also, for what it´s worth, Alema´s TP might be enough to distract someone of team one (like she did to Luke in LotF), while Unu or Lomi could prey on the lapse in defense.

Refresh my memory, what's distinctive about the Rhandite variation of Force Push? I'm not familiar with it.

I also agree with you that the term "ragdoll" is losing its impact, just like "speedblitzing" did on account of its liberal usage.

As for the fight, I'm still with Team 2 as a whole, but I'm open to arguments for the other side.

My knowledge on Dark Nest -feat wise- is sketchy, but as no one is answering you, I will try my best (@jkbart you might know more tho).

  • Unu drew on the power of the whole colony, which numbered trillions of Killiks.
  • Luke feared that Unu might would overwhelm him, though it was with the help of surprise

Raynar's eyes grew very dark around the edges, and suddenly Luke could see nothing else. The murky presence began to reach into his mind, trying to push its way inside his thoughts to read his intentions. Luke was astonished by its power and had to reach deeply into the Force to bolster his own strength. Though the probe was hardly subtle or refined, it felt as though it were being driven by a thousand Raynars, and he feared for a moment that in his surprise he would be overwhelmed by its sheer might.

Then he felt Mara pouring her own strength into him, and Saba and even Leia. Together they pushed the dusky hand back. Luke found himself looking once again into the blue, lidless eyes of their host, and he finally began to comprehend just how difficult it was going to be to reach Raynar Thul.

  • Han said that Raynar is more powerful than Luke. I wouldn´t put too much into this, but others might do. I also heard that Jaina mused that Unu was more powerful than Luke, but I haven´t seen the quote for that.
  • Mara implied that UnuThul might be a threath to Luke.
  • He also seemingly bent a turbolaser with TK, but I can´t find a quote for that. Many trustworthy guys talk about it tho, so it seems to be legit.

His implicitly comparable power to Luke is part of what leans this in his team's favor, in my opinion.

Out of interest, how would you argue that Geth is more powerful than Unu? Not really a argument, just a possible comparision: Vilas did a Gethzerion-like weatherstorm in one of the YJK books, and he himself was only around Zekk´s level. While Geth did it far better, and Zekk seemed to hold back his power after he was reedeemed 8similar to Kyp or Luke), he still was easily inferior to Brakiss in YJK, and it wouldn´t make sense to me to put any version of Zekk close to Unu in any way. Then again, I doubt that Zekk would rival Geth either. Thoughts?

At this point, I'm not arguing that Gethzerion on Dathomir is more powerful than Unu; I edited my first post to say that I'm up in the air about who takes the most powerful spot.

To answer your question though, Gethzerion was an unusually powerful Nightsister, and her Force Storms aren't what I was basing her powers on. Her two most incredible feats that I remember off-hand were killing around one hundred stormtroopers at once with the Force and the other far better one being her dealing near-fatal injuries on Luke with TK. Without rereading the text and going off memory, she bursted blood vessels inside his body and incapacitated him at once. This was 8ABY Luke, not as strong as his Dark Empire incarnation but greater than his RotJ self. She floored him with impunity and without any real effort.

Now, there is the question of Dathomir's Force nexus. In The Courtship of Princess Leia, Luke heals himself from the injuries Gethzerion inflicts on him by drawing on the life energies of the planet. The Essential Chronology also states outright that the planet's Force-concentrated atmosphere enhanced Luke's powers during his adventure there, but The New Essential Chronology omits that sentence, which may or may not constitute a retcon. It might've simply been space constraints on the text of the book, or it might've been the planet's official status changed with new sources. The Infinity Gate arc in Republic referred to Dathomir as a dark side site, which we know since then weakens Jedi powers, not bolsters them. You can assess this as you will.

All we know for certain is that Gethzerion was at her most powerful on Dathomir. It's been shown in several Legends stories that Nightsisters are far weaker off Dathomir, but this thread indulges Gethzerion's dependence on it.

Avatar image for deactivated-6249a821a8c64
deactivated-6249a821a8c64

1732

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0


I enjoy that about him too.

Did you finish the book, by any chance?

No, I haven´t done much in the last days outside of being sick.

Refresh my memory, what's distinctive about the Rhandite variation of Force Push? I'm not familiar with it.

I wasn´t able to find my issue of Book of Sith, but I recall that either Talzin or Luke noted that the Rhandites had a "lethal" or "deadly" force push.

At this point, I'm not arguing that Gethzerion on Dathomir is more powerful than Unu; I edited my first post to say that I'm up in the air about who takes the most powerful spot.

Sure, it´s just that it seems like most people think that Unu is clearly the most powerful here.

were killing around one hundred stormtroopers at once with the Force

Incredible display of power, but I wouldn´t put it in a league with bending Turbolasers, tbh. That being said, while the power behind this feat is "only" great, the precision and mastery is among the best in the mythos.

other far better one being her dealing near-fatal injuries on Luke with TK. Without rereading the text and going off memory, she bursted blood vessels inside his body and incapacitated him at once. This was 8ABY Luke, not as strong as his Dark Empire incarnation but greater than his RotJ self. She floored him with impunity and without any real effort.

Remind me, what are Luke´s force feats at this time again? The only good ones i can recall is him liftin Isolders ship, and his telepathic battle against Cronal.

Avatar image for silver2467
Silver2467

16759

Forum Posts

5315

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#27  Edited By Silver2467

@darthfallax said:

No, I haven´t done much in the last days outside of being sick.

Sorry to hear that.

@darthfallax said:

I wasn´t able to find my issue of Book of Sith, but I recall that either Talzin or Luke noted that the Rhandites had a "lethal" or "deadly" force push.

I found it. Talzin's entry on other dark side organizations:

The most enigmatic of the new competitors are the Sorcerers of Rhand. They claim a kinship with the dark, which they view as the embodiment of decay and death. A true Sorcerer is said to be able to use a psychic blast to eradicate an object or a living being. They are not believed to operate outside the Nihil Retreat, but make an effort to learn more of their ways if you can.

--Book of Sith: Wild Power

I suppose we could take it that the Rhandite telekinetic blasts are especially powerful by virtue of their reputation in the galaxy, but Talzin's description doesn't strike me as anything extraordinary.

@darthfallax said:

Incredible display of power, but I wouldn´t put it in a league with bending Turbolasers, tbh. That being said, while the power behind this feat is "only" great, the precision and mastery is among the best in the mythos.

Agreed.

@darthfallax said:

Remind me, what are Luke´s force feats at this time again? The only good ones i can recall is him liftin Isolders ship, and his telepathic battle against Cronal.

Once again, I'm running off memory from my reading of the Rebellion and early-New Republic era from years ago. Excluding Luke's feats in The Courtship of Princess Leia, he has the following Force feats. Note: The last item listed is from the climax of LSatSoM; so if you haven't finished it, don't look at it.

  • moved fast enough to deflect fire from over one hundred stormtroopers at once
  • levitated himself and Leia safely from a fifty meter or so fall
  • manipulated torpedoes from ship-to-ship distances
  • spread his consciousness across a solar system to touch thousands of stormtroopers minds
  • absorbed five blaster bolts at point blank range with ease
  • moved so fast that superhuman android Guri appeared to move in slow motion
  • fought well against Darth Vader before drawing on the dark side
  • defeated Cronal in a light-vs-dark/battle-of-wills/telepathic-match

I excluded his feats in Courtship because, as mentioned, The Essential Chronology suggests Luke's Force abilities jumped on Dathomir's Force-charged landscape, but since other sources suggest Dathomir is a dark side nexus, it's possible that its nexus would be retconned into hindering him. What this means is that if Dathomir's Force presence is an amplifier for Luke, that just makes Gethzerion's defeat of him that much better, but if not, it reduces the import significantly. From Courtship, off memory:

  • levitating himself, Isolder, and Isolder's starfighter safely to the ground from an atmospheric freefall
  • closing the windpipes of Nightsisters
  • controlling rancors
  • flying the Millenium Falcon with only the Force, operating everything from the pilot's seat to the gunnery stations telekinetically

And on like that. His knowledge of Jedi techniques was obviously growing; he was seen manipulating the bodily temperatures of other beings, employing psychometry, and using telepathic abilities more casually, not to mention his healing powers.

Overall, the best indicator for Luke is fights. He has at this point beaten Lumiya, roughly stalemated Vader in a duel, and overpowered and killed several Nightsisters.

Hope this helps.

Avatar image for silver2467
Silver2467

16759

Forum Posts

5315

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#28  Edited By Silver2467

@darthfallax: Sorry for the lateness of this reply, Fallax. On top of other responsibilities, I had to review large sections of the book in order to piece together Onimi’s influence because the ending twist involves his powers; so the majority of the novel intentionally neglects his effect on the Citadel. I’ve also never studied out the lengths of Onimi’s feat here, and the answer is buried under the enormity of the climax. Without further delay, here is my full analysis on Onimi’s manipulation of the Citadel in The Unifying Force.

If you recall during the events leading up to and during the final Battle of Coruscant in the Vong War, Coruscant/Yuuzhan’tar suffered one cataclysm after another for a variety of extraneous reasons I’ll recite briefly; I bring this up because we need to identify specifically which tremors were supposed to be caused by Onimi personally and which were by some other force.

As you know from the events of Traitor, after the initial Vongforming of Coruscant into a facsimile of their ancient homeworld, the organic yorik coral on Yuuzhan’tar overgrew and assimilated the remains of the Imperial Palace to fashion Shimrra’s Citadel and the upper bunker that doubled as an escape vessel. Turning over to the conclusion of the war in The Unifying Force, once Zonama Sekot appeared in the orbit of Coruscant/Yuuzhan’tar, it upset the gravitational field of the planet and its satellites, causing huge upheavals in volcanic activity and earthquakes (the scene where Drathul threatens Nom Anor).

Then, during the last battle of the conflict, Jag Fe's squadron of Alliance starfighters that penetrated the planet’s orbital defenses fired on the Citadel but to little effect. Lastly, and immediately after the event of which this discussion pertains, the Citadel was shaken again by the takeoff of the Supreme Overlord’s escape vessel at the summit of the Citadel.

"It responds only to the Supreme Overlord." He glanced around. "Onimi—Shimrra's familiar—must be in hiding."

Without warning, the bunker began to vibrate.

"Someone has to tell the dhuryam that enough's enough," Han said.

Nom Anor's heart began to pound. In sudden realization, he placed the palm of his left hand against the outer wall. "The dhuryam isn't doing this! The vessel is being readied for launch! "

Without warning, the ground started to shake. For a moment Mara thought that the Falcon's repulsorlifts were the cause; then she realized that the Citadel was the source. Frightened faces raised to the worldship fortress, the heretics began to retreat to the far side of the square, where the great beasts were on their feet and bellowing in fear. As the shaking grew more violent, cracks formed in the facade of the Citadel and huge hunks of yorik coral began to avalanche down its sheer sides. Paving stones under the Falcon heaved, then sank, dropping the starboard landing gear disk a meter into the fractured ground.

A rending sound thundered through the air. Then the bullet-shaped crown of the holy mountain slowly separated from the base and lifted into the sky.

--The Unifying Force

These are obviously not the handiwork of Onimi’s powers. I’m listing them because the devastation that swept the world at the time came by successive degrees from one catastrophe or another. The subject of this discussion, Onimi’s influence on the Citadel, must be observed as irrespective of these other circumstances, and I’ll now move onto that.

When Jacen reestablished his connection with the World Brain and persuaded it to trust him once again, it was assumed by practically everyone—Jacen, Luke, Nom Anor, Han—that the shaking at the Citadel was caused the dhuryam’s revolt against Shimrra. The text of the book itself narrates this at least four separate times from different perspectives; the following are just a few:

He risked a few cautious steps toward the beasts, then stopped when temblors began to rock the fragile span at regular intervals.

"Now what?" Jaina yelled to Luke. "Is Zonama Sekot making another fly-by?"

The temblors grew louder and more forceful. Jacen managed to keep his balance on the swaying concourse, but the steady jolts proved too much for the unbroken expanse. Fissured, the yorik coral span gave way, plummeting in fragments into the whitewater torrent.

Portions of the fortress had been extensively damaged by powerful groundquakes, which Nom Anor assumed had been engineered by the faithless dhuryam.

"I'm slowing the blood flow, Mara." Skywalker's gaze found Han Solo, who went down on one knee alongside him. "From the way this place was shaking, Han, I'm assuming you convinced the World Brain to see reason."

Han traded brief glances with his wife, then mustered a smile.

"A bit thorny, but we managed."

--The Unifying Force

So the whole Citadel was shaken by earthquakes and the commands of the dhuryam to the yorik coral biots constituting the architecture. This became more concentrated during the battle in the throne room at the summit, where the whole pinnacle bunker tilted from side-to-side unpredictably “as if mounted on gimbals,” according to the text. This phenomenon was also believed by Jacen and Luke to be the intent of the World Brain.

Jacen jumped straight up, but not quickly enough, and the amphistaff struck him on the ankle. Landing off balance, he staggered into the wall. Two warriors hurried after him, but made it only halfway when the entire bunker tipped to the right.

The unexpected movement sent everyone, slayers and Jedi alike, scurrying, sailing, and tumbling into the opposite wall. As if mounted on gimbals, the bunker tipped again, this time in the direction of the ruined osmotic membrane, bunching everyone against that wall. Guessing that Shimrra was responsible, Luke spared a glance at the throne.

The Supreme Overlord's clawed hands were indeed in motion, but the expression on Shimrra's face was one of benign bafflement.

The dhuryam, Jacen sent through the Force.

Luke understood.

The World Brain, joining the Shamed Ones in revolt, was causing the entire Citadel to shake, perhaps by rocking the cradle to which it was wed, or by some means beyond Luke's imagining. Self-contained, the bunker was attempting to keep itself level.

--The Unifying Force

The illustration of gimbals like a gyroscope explains how the bunker can shift on its side without collapsing the Citadel wholesale, especially since the upper bunker—including the Supreme Overlord’s ship—forms only the peak of the palace, which earlier chapters described entering like a completely separate structure, “in some sense leaving the Citadel itself.” This distinguishes the integrity of the bunker from the integrity of the Citadel, answering my earlier question about how the bunker can tilt without destroying the palace; while the Citadel at large shook at apparently tectonic movements, the bunker pivoted unexpectedly at odd angles seemingly on an axis, leaving the warriors frequently grounded. In total, I counted more than six times that the bunker canted during the battle between the Jedi and the slayers.

But while the escape ship according to design is removable from the Citadel, these effects aren’t entirely detached from one another. Twice, the novel says that the shaking of the Citadel caused the bunker to turn angularly.

If not for the swaying of the Citadel and the effects of its unpredictable oscillations of Shimrra's coffer—his escape vessel—Jacen figured he would already be dead. That was the World Brain, having finally decided which side it was on.

Abruptly, the Citadel rocked and the room tilted to the right. Luke dropped to one knee, holding his lightsaber arm up to protect his head, then dived, somersaulting on landing and spinning to his feet to face the warriors' charge.

--The Unifying Force

So basically, we have this happening: as the Citadel is shaken, the bunker oscillates from side-to-side. What does this have to do with Onimi? Well, all three of the Jedi suspected the Shamed One’s hand in the fight in the throne chamber somehow, though none guessed precisely the role he played except for Jacen at the end. Luke caught glimpse of him when the first shift happens, and then Jaina and Jacen also take a hard look at him later on, marking particularly how he stood unaffected by the precarious floor level.

But cut off from the dhuryam, it couldn't anticipate the Citadel's behavior. Shimrra's hand movements were just that—the idle flutters of a god-king who was forced to accept that he had lost his most powerful ally and weapon. Without the dhuryam's cooperation, Coruscant could never be Yuuzhan'tar. Even if victorious in the war, the Yuuzhan Vong would have failed to re-create their ancestral homeworld.

And yet there was a look in Shimrra's blazing eyes that promised Luke he had not seen the last of the Supreme Overlord's tricks. Shimrra was concealing something—a secret of such power that it enabled him to remain seated on his throne, even with his world teetering around him.

Luke noticed then, for the first time, that Shimrra wasn't alone on the dais. Behind the throne crouched another Yuuzhan Vong, whose asymmetrically swollen head and downcast features identified him as a Shamed One. Aware that he had been glimpsed, the Shamed One withdrew into the shadow cast by the throne, as if in an attempt to make himself small and unnoticeable.

But Luke had no time to think further about Shimrra's companion.

The bunker was suddenly in motion again.

In the center of the bunker, giant Shimrra had left his throne and was tottering toward the moat, his powerful amphistaff unfurled and serving as a kind of walking stick. Also in motion was Shimrra's companion, who was making steady if tortuous progress toward the curving stairway that climbed into the summit.

Jaina had first noticed him moments earlier when the bunker had shifted, somehow maintaining his balance despite his asymmetry.

--The Unifying Force

Jacen’s curiosity about Onimi was finally put to rest when he confronted him. Just as he caught onto during the battle, the slayers fought in a directed pattern once Onimi left the dais and climbed into the ship. He had in fact begun guiding the movements of the slayers, much like a yammosk guides coralskippers during warfare. More pertinently, Jacen also discovered that Onimi and not the World Brain was the one responsible for the shaking of the Citadel. This is our key text:

The trouble was, that decision mattered only to the reshaping of Coruscant and not to the Supreme Overlord, who was clearly able to control objects in his immediate environment without need of the dhuryam.

The slayers, for one thing.

Where initially they had been moving with individual vigilance and of their own accord, they were now moving as coralskippers did under the control of a battle coordinator. The change had come simultaneously with Shimrra's rising from the throne, and the escape of his Shamed One companion, whom Jaina had pursued into the summit of the Citadel.

"In your omniscience, you know that's why I risked grafting yammosk cells to my own neural tissue: in the hope of being able to discover some way to escape the rack on which you had mounted us! But instead of rewarding my having the courage to emulate your bold works of creation, you condemned me. You granted me the powers to speak through the mouths of others, to manipulate them at will, to control remotely, as your yammosks do, and yet you punished me with physical deformities that shouted to one and all that my attempt at self-escalation had failed.

Jacen realized the truth. Onimi had overseen the warriors in the throne room below. Onimi, not the dhuryam, had been responsible for the quakes that had nearly toppled the Citadel

--The Unifying Force

So Onimi generated the quaking of the entire citadel and the pinwheeling of the bunker during the fight. This is wholly attributed to his own powers.

Now, we have the question: how did Onimi do this? Does this show powers usable in other circumstances absent Vong biotechnology, for battle forum purposes for instance? To answer that, let’s consider how his powers worked. Onimi by shaper engineering manipulated his own cellular makeup, infusing yammosk cells to his brain tissue and so doing granted himself telepathic powers. Yammosks, as you know, coordinated warfare for the Vong, using their telepathic influence on coralskippers and other crafts to win battles. Dhuryams, which are basically just modified super-yammosks, applied this same principle on a planetary scope to forge the Vong homeworld, cultivating its foliage and animals and creating architecture and ecosystems necessary for both the Vong and their sundry biots to thrive.

What Jacen found went deeper though; he saw that Onimi had actually reversed his Force severance by his self-bioengineering and that his telepathic powers were a manifestation of his Force powers. This was why Onimi could see Jacen and Jaina through the Force and summon electrical charges reminiscent of Force Lightning.

As the realization deepened, he recognized that his Vongsense was allowing him to see Onimi in a profound way. Onimi was open to him, and in an instant Jacen understood how the Shamed One, a former shaper, had attained such power. But even Onimi didn't understand that through his experiments he had also found a way to reverse the damage that had been done in the distant past to the Yuuzhan Vong.

He had regained the Force!

--The Unifying Force

Coming to the point, Onimi’s ability to command the Supreme Overlord’s escape vessel was because he essentially was the Supreme Overlord in everything but name. It was his own craft joined to him, not Shimrra. Like other organic spacecraft, the ship would respond to the telepathic tugging of a yammosk or, in this case, Onimi. It can activate and move on command. So was that how Onimi shook the palace, by telepathically impelling the biots? There’s definitely a case for that, and I’ll actually present arguments for both sides of this.

To begin with, while it’s true that the escape vessel was bound to Onimi personally, it wasn’t already active when the Jedi entered the bunker. Onimi fled up the steps into the bridge in order to prep it for launch. This required him to both telekinetically and telepathically manipulate the vessel’s organic control nodes.

Shimrra's companion shuffled about the spacious bridge, activating the vessel's organic components with waves of his crooked hands and with what seemed to be telepathic commands. The living console began to pulse and ripple like muscle tissue.

Jacen kept climbing. On reaching the last few high-risered stairs, he leapt through the well and landed in a defensive crouch on the deck of the vessel's immense bridge. Shimrra's familiar stood opposite him, his disfigured body listed to one side, his twisted hands waving commands at the throbbing control console.

Onimi wanted nothing more than to kill them. He was observing Jacen from across the bridge, even while guiding the vessel through the tattered sky. Willing it through the tattered sky, Jacen realized. Directing it the way a yammosk might.

--The Unifying Force

Clearly, Onimi’s activation of the ship and its ready response to him owes to his ownership of the vessel, and when he died, the vessel underwent a near-immediate catastrophic system shut-down, destroying it with him.

"Onimi was wedded to this ship," he said in a rush. "With his death, it has begun to die, and we will perish with it."

--The Unifying Force

But to answer one of your earlier questions, the Citadel wasn’t destroyed, not entirely anyway; what remained of it after the damage from Alliance ships, groundquakes, and the liftoff of the escape vessel still stood afterward. It was the ship only that perished when struck with the death of Onimi.

So did the escape ship share some unique, telepathic bond with Onimi? It appears so given the comparison between Onimi’s control of it and the dhuryam’s control of the planet. It’s curious too that the excerpts concerning the coffer tilting portray the organic bunker being “self-contained,” finding itself “cut off from the dhuryam” and so couldn’t “anticipate the Citadel’s behavior.” This was while everyone labored under the impression that the World Brain caused the quaking of the Citadel, when actually it was Onimi; this might suggest that the biot structure of the Citadel reacted to telepathic instructions, while the bunker received none and had to right itself when shaken. If that’s the case, this shows a more telepathic origin to Onimi’s feat.

About the ship in question, in addition to being the one Vong the vessel was programmed to obey, we find in the narration that the ship and all constituents of it answered Onimi’s commands. However, this is described as telekinetic during Onimi’s fight with Jacen and seems to stretch beyond what an ordinary yammosk could do. Indeed, his abilities are compared to the World Brain itself, but the text calls his environmental manipulation “telekinetic powers.”

Onimi was eager to train his awesome powers on Jacen, and to do that he had no need for an amphistaff or coufee. He was capable of manufacturing paralytic agents and lethal poisons. And in the same way the World Brain oversaw Coruscant, Onimi controlled the environment of the living vessel, and could turn any or all parts of it against Jacen.

On the bridge of the vessel whose every component answered to him, Onimi sent a blur of objects racing for Jacen, beginning with the carved idols that flanked Jaina: cloaked Yun-Harla, many-armed Yun-Yammka, thousand-eyed Yun-Shuno, and the rest. But Jacen stood firm. Not wanting to risk hurting Jaina inadvertently by deflecting the objects, he pulled everything into a whirling cloud, as if in orbit around him. Beyond the cloud, he was dimly aware that a transparency had formed above the console, and that constellations of stars were winking into existence, smeared in places by the explosive exchanges among the hundreds of warships battling at the edge of Coruscant's envelope.

Jacen's steadfast defense infuriated Onimi. Reaching deeper into himself, the Supreme Overlord used his telekinetic powers to create cracks in the bulkheads and ceiling, hoping to add chunks of uprooted yorik coral to his conjured storm.

But as fast as the fissures formed, Jacen repaired them, and those chunks that were torn away he ordered the vessel to cement in place.

--The Unifying Force

As seen above, Jacen successfully bent the environment of the ship back against Onimi, exerting telekinetic control to close the fissures, and so united his Force sensitivity and Vongsense into a state of Oneness that allowed him to touch the universe at large and the severed Vong life simultaneously, with no break in his awareness between them. Evidently, the Force motioned the living ship, and if it was the Force that Onimi used to control it, it’s possible he could use the Force also to the same effect on anything else.

Furthermore, nothing of this kind of special control or connection is described of Onimi’s quaking of the Citadel and the bunker atop it, aside from a possible correlation to the World Brain’s telephatic faculties, and even if it did, it’s not explicitly stated that Onimi’s bond with the escape ship exclusively permitted him to telekinetically crack the ship’s bulkheads. That’s only inference and not an absolute one, in my opinion. The comparison to the World Brain and Onimi’s control over every article in the escape vessel might be nothing more than an analogy to express the breadth of his control, not the method of it. What dhuryams do by biologically engineered telepathic powers, Onimi does by biologically renewed Force powers.

I think the argument of yammosk-like telepathy being the source of Onimi’s feats would be more plausible if the novel didn’t reveal him to be Force sensitive and describe his hurling objects as “telekinetic.” Those bits of information point to the conclusion that this power is Force-derived telekinesis applied on the Citadel. His powers pour from the Force, and the whole premise and philosophical thrust of The Unifying Force is the oneness of all the universe. Ergo, I believe what Onimi did to the Citadel, he can do to anything else, because all is connected by the same power, the same consciousness.

To summarize:

  • Onimi quaked and shook the entire Citadel, a multi-level spacecraper-palace, possibly by telekinetic pressure
  • The shaking of the Citadel resulted in the drastic angular shifting of the bunker
  • Onimi continued doing this while telepathically conducting the slayers in their attack against Luke and Jacen and only seemed to stop once he started up the escape ship

If all of this is correct, this amounts to one of the best telekinetic feats in Legends Star Wars. Its quality will vary a bit by interpretation though. Although I lean just a bit towards the interpretation that Onimi rumbled the Citadel telekinetically based on the novel’s description of his Force sensitivity and manifesting “telekinetic” powers, I wouldn’t be too dogmatic about this conclusion; I honestly had to give it quite a bit of consideration before posting this. There’s certainly an argument to be made for a telepathic root to all this where Onimi merely compelled the biots to rattle uncontrollably, and I even raised a few points to that interpretation. It’s even possible that there’s a combination of both telepathy and telekinesis at work here. At the moment, I just think a telekinetic influence makes the most sense.

Hopefully, this sheds some light for you. Let me know your thoughts.

Avatar image for azronger
Azronger

5295

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@silver2467: Marvelous post. How big is the Citadel, exactly?

Avatar image for silver2467
Silver2467

16759

Forum Posts

5315

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@azronger: I haven't found an exact height or width. I know that it was built over the ruins of the Imperial Palace, but how much precisely of that still stood is anyone's guess.

The Citadel had at least 14 levels, a high dovin basal-controlled chute to the bunker, and then the summit which was a sizable escape vessel with several chambers. The best indicator is TUF's frequent description of the Citadel as a "holy mountain," and there's one scene where Jag sees the Citadel through a cloud and smoke cover, which suggests it might reach cloud-level.

As a sidenote, I only just now realized I posted this in the wrong thread. I had two active conversations with DarthFallax a couple weeks ago, and the thread we were talking about Onimi in was this one. LOL.

Avatar image for deactivated-6249a821a8c64
deactivated-6249a821a8c64

1732

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@silver2467: Absolutely amazing post Silver, I can´t express how much I thank you for that, especially since I haven´t done my research there LOL. I probably will respond on the weekend, but I need to tag @jkbart for this.

Also, where should we discuss this? It get´s abit off-topic even for the Shimrra thread (though that´s my fault), and here would obviously be the wrong place. A blog post could work, as your analysis is certainly blog worthy imo, or maybe a seperate thread in the Star Wars subforum. Thoughts?

Avatar image for azronger
Azronger

5295

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@jkbart: I remember you saying on Hangouts Shimrra's citadel was 100 km x 100 km big. Do you have a source?

Avatar image for deactivated-6249a821a8c64
deactivated-6249a821a8c64

1732

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@azronger: Pretty sure I said that, tand evben then only if Wookiedia is correct, so not a definite claim.

Avatar image for silver2467
Silver2467

16759

Forum Posts

5315

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@silver2467: Absolutely amazing post Silver, I can´t express how much I thank you for that, especially since I haven´t done my research there LOL. I probably will respond on the weekend, but I need to tag @jkbart for this.

Also, where should we discuss this? It get´s abit off-topic even for the Shimrra thread (though that´s my fault), and here would obviously be the wrong place. A blog post could work, as your analysis is certainly blog worthy imo, or maybe a seperate thread in the Star Wars subforum. Thoughts?

You're welcome. :)

That's not a bad idea. I could move this to a blog/SW forum thread.

Avatar image for vitisid
Vitisid

1199

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Bump

Avatar image for the_wspanialy
the_wspanialy

869

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#36 the_wspanialy  Online

The Dark Nest. Rather decisively.