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Posted by StealthGrey (226 posts) 14 days, 10 hours ago

Poll: Endgame Fat Thor vs Post-Nukes Doomsday (179 votes)

Thor sent him to Valhala 22%
Doomsday slaughterhouse 73%
Stalemate 4%

Fight take place in Gotham, 30 ft apart

Thor replaces the Trinity

No morals

Thor wielding Stormbreaker and Mjolnir

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#201 Edited by FlashFyr (476 posts) - - Show Bio

@death4bunnies:

Dude the speed and mass equation is still a base line.

If there is a force that adds to that, like say musculature or propulsion then add that.

If there is a reason that the force didn't fully translate to the object getting hit, like say a glancing blow then there is reason to subtract the missing/absorbed/redirected energy.

Im not saying other things can not be factored in on the plus side or the minus side; hell we can factor in wind speed and change the equation; Im simply saying Thanos survived a Bullrush from Captian Marvel and your doing your best to try to downplay that feat.

Its not like Im saying she hit him with the force of a MOAB, just that she hit him with equatable force as DD took when he was bullrushed by Superman.

Speed and mass is a baseline? A 150 lb boxer does not strike with 220 lbs in a heartless jab, which is what you get with the mass of his arm x 24 mph and a punch speed of .056s. I've taken those strikes fully to the face (not glancing blows, not misses, not redirected), I know what 220 feels like, and that ain't it. That's as much as an elite level cross. In what fucking world does a jab, with almost no muscle flexion, hit as hard as a cross from an elite boxer? Saying the kinematic equation is a minimum baseline in the context of a fight is so untrue. It actually kind of offends me since I do MMA and boxing. Believe it or not, there are many factors in a strike that can severely subtract the force by exponential numbers.

I'm not downplaying anything, I'm saying you've failed to demonstrate that Captain Marvel hit Thanos with the same force as Superman. What makes you think she was flexed as much as Supes, traveling at full speed when she came in (trails don't prove speed), or that she intended to one shot Thanos? No collateral damage. No shockwaves. You're going off an ambiguous statement and an argument that dumbs down to fallacy of ignorance, saying "Well I would insta-kill Thanos and I don't see any reason Carol wouldn't, therefore it must have been her plan." Thanos' blunt force durability would literally be 50x stronger than DD's since he stayed in one spot, whereas DD got knocked hundreds of feet away. It's ridiculous to think his durability is 50x better while being unable to produce any way of showing it, other than a gross number of assumptions to justify an equation that may not work in this context, and that can repeatedlyfail in this context, as you defy Occam's Razor all the while. And just in case you still don't understand my point, I am not downplaying it or saying you're definitely wrong.

I am saying you haven't demonstrated it to be true, therefore it's unconvincing.

I can't downplay or disprove something that hasn't been proven.

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#203 Posted by SexyBayonetta22 (2356 posts) - - Show Bio

DD oneshots. Prime Thor would be better

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#204 Posted by jashugan (6627 posts) - - Show Bio

@death4bunnies: until you started repeating yourself then I saw you didn't have much of a point

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#206 Posted by jamespacker (578 posts) - - Show Bio

DD

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#207 Posted by death4bunnies (1489 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashugan said:

@death4bunnies: until you started repeating yourself then I saw you didn't have much of a point

What?

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#208 Posted by death4bunnies (1489 posts) - - Show Bio

@flashfyr said:

@death4bunnies:

Dude the speed and mass equation is still a base line.

If there is a force that adds to that, like say musculature or propulsion then add that.

If there is a reason that the force didn't fully translate to the object getting hit, like say a glancing blow then there is reason to subtract the missing/absorbed/redirected energy.

Im not saying other things can not be factored in on the plus side or the minus side; hell we can factor in wind speed and change the equation; Im simply saying Thanos survived a Bullrush from Captian Marvel and your doing your best to try to downplay that feat.

Its not like Im saying she hit him with the force of a MOAB, just that she hit him with equatable force as DD took when he was bullrushed by Superman.

Speed and mass is a baseline? A 150 lb boxer does not strike with 220 lbs in a heartless jab, which is what you get with the mass of his arm x 24 mph and a punch speed of .056s. I've taken those strikes fully to the face (not glancing blows, not misses, not redirected), I know what 220 feels like, and that ain't it. That's as much as an elite level cross. In what fucking world does a jab, with almost no muscle flexion, hit as hard as a cross from an elite boxer? Saying the kinematic equation is a minimum baseline in the context of a fight is so untrue. It actually kind of offends me since I do MMA and boxing. Believe it or not, there are many factors in a strike that can severely subtract the force by exponential numbers.

I'm not downplaying anything, I'm saying you've failed to demonstrate that Captain Marvel hit Thanos with the same force as Superman. What makes you think she was flexed as much as Supes, traveling at full speed when she came in (trails don't prove speed), or that she intended to one shot Thanos? No collateral damage. No shockwaves. You're going off an ambiguous statement and an argument that dumbs down to fallacy of ignorance, saying "Well I would insta-kill Thanos and I don't see any reason Carol wouldn't, therefore it must have been her plan." Thanos' blunt force durability would literally be 50x stronger than DD's since he stayed in one spot, whereas DD got knocked hundreds of feet away. It's ridiculous to think his durability is 50x better while being unable to produce any way of showing it, other than a gross number of assumptions to justify an equation that may not work in this context, and that can repeatedlyfail in this context, as you defy Occam's Razor all the while. And just in case you still don't understand my point, I am not downplaying it or saying you're definitely wrong.

I am saying you haven't demonstrated it to be true, therefore it's unconvincing.

I can't downplay or disprove something that hasn't been proven.

Thanos was bullrushed at speed by Captian Marvel. I don't know what else to tell you

Agree to disagree.

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#211 Edited by FlashFyr (476 posts) - - Show Bio

@death4bunnies: Your epistemology is horrible and your conclusion that Thanos is 50x more durable than DD is laughable. Don't know how else to point it out.

But sure, agree to disagree.

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#213 Posted by death4bunnies (1489 posts) - - Show Bio

@flashfyr said:

@death4bunnies: Your epistemology is horrible and your conclusion that Thanos is 50x more durable than DD is laughable. Don't know how else to point it out.

I never said 50x more durable, thats something you said in a attempt to strawman mean a effort to get me to defend something I don't believe.

I think CM's bullrush that she hit Thanos with to be equatable to the bullrush Superman is DD with, no more no less.

But sure, agree to disagree.

Thank you for the respectful debate.

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#214 Posted by FlashFyr (476 posts) - - Show Bio

@death4bunnies: > Thanos' blunt force durability would literally be 50x stronger than DD's since he stayed in one spot, whereas DD got knocked hundreds of feet away.

Equatable force, one doesn't move and one gets flung across a football field. I'm not straw manning anything, that's just the fact of the physics you're trying to pull. And it's ridiculous, so I'm glad you're not trying to defend it. Though it's utterly absurd you say it's not your position when your clear effort is to compare the two.

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#215 Posted by Mister_Surreal (10990 posts) - - Show Bio

Doomsday kills.

Online
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#216 Posted by Supermanthor (20012 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
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#217 Posted by Richard96 (5798 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor gets one-shotted. What kind of mismatch is this?

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#218 Posted by death4bunnies (1489 posts) - - Show Bio

@flashfyr said:

@death4bunnies: > Thanos' blunt force durability would literally be 50x stronger than DD's since he stayed in one spot, whereas DD got knocked hundreds of feet away.

This is something you said not something I said; I would take into account artistic license, and the idea that special effects rarely live up to real life expectations.

Equatable force, one doesn't move and one gets flung across a football field. I'm not straw manning anything, that's just the fact of the physics you're trying to pull. And it's ridiculous, so I'm glad you're not trying to defend it. Though it's utterly absurd you say it's not your position when your clear effort is to compare the two.

Im just saying CM bullrushed Thanos at a fast speed, in a similar way as Superman bullrushed DD at a fast speed.

Im saying my position is not that Thanos is 50x more durable, its that these feats are equatable.

Lastly you do know that we never posted a gif of supermans bullrush, as he connected with a few its entirely possible that we are looking at 2 different scenes here.

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#219 Edited by Noone1996 (11846 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: Lmao how does Doomsday one-shot? What kind of striking power does he have to actually make you think that? He couldn't even one-shot or damage Wonder Woman.

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#220 Posted by Noone1996 (11846 posts) - - Show Bio

Doomsday clearly has a piercing weakness. Why people think this is a mismatch is beyond me.

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#221 Edited by FlashFyr (476 posts) - - Show Bio

@death4bunnies: This is something you said not something I said; I would take into account artistic license, and the idea that special effects rarely live up to real life expectations.

If we took a poll of how many people looked at the scene and thought CM really went full force with her bullrush to the point of Superman hitting DD, the numbers would not be in your favor. At all. Because that's not what it looks like, that's not what it feels like, it doesn't seem to be the directors' intention, but I'm 99% sure you'd quickly shut off the "artistic license" argument the moment it works against you and then go back to inapplicable kinematics.

Im just saying CM bullrushed Thanos at a fast speed, in a similar way as Superman bullrushed DD at a fast speed.

Im saying my position is not that Thanos is 50x more durable, its that these feats are equatable.

> I think CM's bullrush that she hit Thanos with to be equatable to the bullrush Superman is DD with

You're literally saying CM hit Thanos with a similar force that Superman hit DD with. Basically, you could switch out Superman for CM and the resulting force would be practically the same. Thanos doesn't move, DD gets hit hundreds of feet away. But your position, somehow, is not that Thanos is far more durable than DD when that's the only conclusion that makes sense. This is going from inconsistency to intellectual dishonesty.

Lastly you do know that we never posted a gif of supermans bullrush, as he connected with a few its entirely possible that we are looking at 2 different scenes here.

What other scene was there where Superman flew down from orbit to smash into DD?

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#222 Posted by Amonfire1776 (3133 posts) - - Show Bio
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#223 Posted by Batman242 (11903 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: Everybody has a piercing weakness to some degree, it varies from person to person based on durability. You saying that he has an outright weakness to piercing is just your classic lowballing of Diana's sword and willfully ignoring that he's shown superior durability to every high tier in the MCU in the form of 30mm rounds and a nuke.

I'll give you that Stormbreaker can cut Doomsday just for the sake of argument. Now prove that Thor can ever touch him with it.

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#224 Posted by Richard96 (5798 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: Lmao how does Doomsday one-shot? What kind of striking power does he have to actually make you think that? He couldn't even one-shot or damage Wonder Woman.

Fat Thor is weak, slow, out of practice and unfit. DD would tag him easily and stomp him harder than Thanos did. Maybe not a one-shot, but still two or three shot. And WW is stronger than EG Thor.

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#225 Posted by Gokluma (8778 posts) - - Show Bio

Doomsday destroy weak version of Thor.

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#226 Posted by bdelloidgrain2 (1988 posts) - - Show Bio
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#227 Posted by Rijehu (1697 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: Everybody has a piercing weakness to some degree, it varies from person to person based on durability. You saying that he has an outright weakness to piercing is just your classic lowballing of Diana's sword and willfully ignoring that he's shown superior durability to every high tier in the MCU in the form of 30mm rounds and a nuke.

I'll give you that Stormbreaker can cut Doomsday just for the sake of argument. Now prove that Thor can ever touch him with it.

Beautiful

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#228 Posted by Rijehu (1697 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, there isn't really a Post nuke or Pre Nuke DD. It's just DD truly. Logically speaking, a "pre nuke" DD was still capable of tanking a Nuke and falling back to earth without harm anyway, so either one is just as powerful as the other physically. Both shred any version of MCU Thor.

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#229 Posted by Amonfire1776 (3133 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor still chops his head off...

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#230 Posted by Batman242 (11903 posts) - - Show Bio

@amonfire1776: Like when he was so capable of doing so to Thanos without the help of anyone else.

Damn, oh wait....

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#231 Posted by Batman242 (11903 posts) - - Show Bio

@rijehu: It's not as though he'd respond to this, anyway. He'll ignore it and continue to low-ball Diana's sword and willfully ignore that Thor has had mighty trouble hitting opponents that are faster than he is.

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#232 Posted by Amonfire1776 (3133 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242: He did though...obviously you forgot about endgame...

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#233 Posted by Batman242 (11903 posts) - - Show Bio

@amonfire1776: He chopped Thanos'head off without someone holding Thanos down?

I missed that scene, care to provide it?

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#234 Edited by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (11846 posts) - - Show Bio
@rijehu said:

Also, there isn't really a Post nuke or Pre Nuke DD. It's just DD truly. Logically speaking, a "pre nuke" DD was still capable of tanking a Nuke and falling back to earth without harm anyway, so either one is just as powerful as the other physically. Both shred any version of MCU Thor.

According to the VFX supervisor, Post-Nuke Doomsday evolved beyond the physical capabilities of the newborn Doomsday, so he was definitely more powerful. And the latter/Newborn Doomsday was above Zod in term of physicals as well, he was basically a braindead Zod operating at maximum physical potential:

Can you explain in details about the design and the creation of Doomsday?

We started from a clay maquette that Patrick Tatopoulos and Jordu Schell created for Zack. Because in the film, Doomsday is created out of the Genesys Chamber from Zod’s body, the idea was to explore how the gene transformation is all about efficiency. It expands the body to extreme physical abilities, with little regard to the resulting aesthetic. This resulted into a pretty anamorphous creature with every bone, tendons and muscles expanded to their maximum capabilities. MPC’s art department then created high resolution conceptual drawing and 3d models based on the original maquette, in order to refine the transformation of each body part but still maintain some aspects of the original comic book design.

We built 2 versions of Doomsday: the newborn version was smaller and not fully developed while the fully formed version, as Doomsday builds up its strength in the film, was much bigger with every inch of his body developed beyond their maximum capabilities.

Doomsday, in its final form, had a body that expanded so much that his skin was cracked open in places, exposing tendons and muscles which presented a real challenge for us. Generally a CG character is only built at high resolution on the outside and proxy muscles, tendons and fat layers are used for simulation purposes only. In this case, we had to build everything up to the skeleton in a renderable way because the cracked skin and extruded bones exposed a lot of the underlying anatomy.

Source: https://www.artofvfx.com/batman-v-superman-dawn-justice-guillaume-rocheron-vfx-supervisor-mpc/

And what's even more interesting: the U.S government/military spent months trying to study Zod's dead body and they couldn't put a dent in him even with cutting edge tech because of his invincible skin, they needed Kryptonite for that which Luthor later provided, this is applicable to any DCEU Kryptonian. And Post-Nuke Doomsday has a much tougher skin, and is ridiculously more durable than "alive" Zod, and that speaks highly of his piercing durability yet some people thinks he has a weakness to that kinda shit, smh.

As for his striking power, Doomsday easily intercepted and overpowered a charging Superman with a single punch so much so he broke the damn sound barrier and sent the latter flying a bazillion meters backwards.

Why is that^ impressive? A weaker Superman, in a weakened state, managed to bust a 4+ million tons machine (the world engine - 986 meters in height) that landed on Earth at high level speeds or/mach 5.7 (mach 25 and accelerating if we go by what was stated in the movie but I'm extremely dubious about it due to multiple reasons which I will list later), it crossed a distance of 1972 meters or twice its height in the span of a second right before the impact (0:46-0:47), creating a massive shockwave that not only eclipsed the Engine in size and extended for miles in all directions but also destroyed large portion of the mountain located behind the Engine:

L O L
L O L
Image 1: The World Engine lands, the shockwave hasn't been fully released yet, the mountain is still intact. Image 2: The shockwave starts spreading, and hit the mountain pretty hard and the latter starts collapsing from the top (you better re-watch the clip for this, and concentrate on the mountain's top). Image 3: the debris starts flying everywhere, the smoke is concealing the view. Image 4-5: the smoke clears out, and the Mountain top is not there which means it was indeed destroyed.
Image 1: The World Engine lands, the shockwave hasn't been fully released yet, the mountain is still intact. Image 2: The shockwave starts spreading, and hit the mountain pretty hard and the latter starts collapsing from the top (you better re-watch the clip for this, and concentrate on the mountain's top). Image 3: the debris starts flying everywhere, the smoke is concealing the view. Image 4-5: the smoke clears out, and the Mountain top is not there which means it was indeed destroyed.

If you're wondering where I got the 4+ million tons thingy from, read post 108 and post 135 in this thread - and please don't take the calcs that seriously, they are just for fun, XD. In fact, imma just quote some of em:

We know for a fact that the World Engine is 156 meters taller, and a heck of a lot larger than Burj Khalifa, and since it's made up of metal while Burj Khalifa is mostly made out of concrete and windows glass, it's reasonable to say that the World Engine is denser and at the very least 10 times heavier than Burj Khalifa. With that said, assuming the WE was the size of Burj Khalifa and its metal's density was similar to that of steel or 7.85t/m3 (massive lowball), and given the normal density of concrete (which is what Burj Khalifa is made out of) is 2.4 t/m3, this is once again a massive lowball estimate, especially considering the world engine not only dwarfs Burj Khalifa in size but is also comprised of an alien metal found on Krypton with more gravity than Earth and thereby possess more density. Burj Khalifa has a mass of 550000 tons, but if it was made up entirely of steel it would have a mass of 1798958 tons or almost 2 million tons ((7.85/2.4) x 550000), and if it was made up of tungsten (tungsten's density is 19.25t/m3 - WE's metal is obviously far more durable and denser than tungsten) it would have a mass equivalent to 4411458.333 tons, and you and I both know that the World Engine's actual mass is at least 5 times the estimated amount (10+ million tons), and it hit the ground at mach 5.7 and it completely no-sold the impact

Superman busted that^ thing with his weakest bullrush to date (not counting Kryptonite-weakened Superman, obviously), and Doomsday overpowered a much more powerful bullrush with a single punch. Likewise, Zod had a similar feat wherein he sends a charging Superman flying miles in the opposite direction with enough force to go through multiple skyscrapers at the same time like a hot knife through butter (with enough momentum to collapse one of said buildings as you can see in the gif down below), and Post-Nuke Doomsday is physically "beyond" Zod as the VFX supervisor described it.

But some people still thinks Doomsday's striking power is lacking.. 🤷

Side note: that^ was actually all Zod's striking force, not Superman's or their combined damage output, just Zod's. He bypassed Clark's momentum with a punch, and sent him hurling through multiple skyscrapers.. that's a shit ton of power (as explained in post 71).

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#235 Posted by Batman242 (11903 posts) - - Show Bio
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#236 Edited by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (11846 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242: True, pathetic Superpants.

Update: The World Engine was moving at speed easily around 9860 meters per second given the distance it traveled between 1:39 - 1:40

No Caption Provided

That is probably more than ten times its height, or 9860+ meters per second or over mach 28+ which supports what was stated on-screen (mach 25 and accelerating), that's just crazy fast. So, mach 5.7 may actually be lowball.

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#237 Posted by Noone1996 (11846 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242: Remind me again how a nuke is a piercing attack again?

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#238 Posted by Noone1996 (11846 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: How is he weaker? How is he less durable? How is WW stronger? How does Doomsday's striking power compare to Thanos? Creating sonic cones and sending somebody flying are not good feats.

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#239 Posted by Batman242 (11903 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: Beside from the massive amount of energy released from a 475 kiloton - 1.4 megaton nuke and encompassing the entire surface area of your body, DD was hit directly in the face with a missile traveling at mach 23 (escape velocity) and still had a head completely intact afterward. There's also the 30mm rounds from an M230 and the fact that Thor, Thanos or Hulk haven't faced any of that caliber and power. Hulk did the best in the form of 25mm rounds.

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#240 Edited by Lord_Titan_ (2700 posts) - - Show Bio

This thor can't bang with doomsday, though it would have broken the vine if we got to see IW Thor in his prime solo thanos

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#241 Edited by Batman242 (11903 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_titan_: It wouldn't really break the Vine, it was clear that Thor in his prime could've solo'd Thanos and was exactly why the nerfed him in Endgame, there are just so many users here in denial of this fact.

This doesn't mean that Thor can do here what he should have done to Thanos since his opponent here is faster than he himself is.

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#242 Posted by Noone1996 (11846 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242: A 1.4 megaton nuke in thinner atmosphere is not a piercing attack. We also don't really exactly know if the missile directly hit him or exploded right before it hit him. It got really close and then we see a flash of energy. Most nukes do not explode on impact like regular missiles do. Most of the time they are detonated above the ground when they are sent out instead of setting them to explode as they hit the ground level. Also, it's not even clear how many 30 mm rounds Doomsday actually tanked. It looked like Bruce missed most of his shots. You only see a few bullets actually bouncing off. IMO, tanking a handful of piercing attacks like that is not as impressive as tanking many smaller caliber rounds. Either way, it's still in the same ballpark and the difference between Hulk's feat (who has stats far inferior to Thanos) and Doomsday's is not high enough for it to matter when it comes to Stormbreaker. Especially since Thanos, who was cut like butter by Thor, basically no-sold vibranium piercing attacks from Cap.

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#243 Edited by Noone1996 (11846 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242 said:

It wouldn't really break the Vine, it was clear that Thor in his prime could've solo'd Thanos and was exactly why the nerfed him in Endgame, there are just so many users here in denial of this fact.

The Russo Brothers confirmed that the only reason Thor did so well against Thanos in Infinity War with Stormbreaker was because the gauntlet energies were linked from Nivadelir which made his weapon more effective against them. If Thanos was actively trying to parry or avoid Stormbreaker like he did in Endgame then there is no way he would have lost.

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#244 Edited by Batman242 (11903 posts) - - Show Bio

@noone1996: You don't need resistance to piercing attack to prove that you can't be pierced by most means. The only character this doesn't work for is Wonder Woman, who can take powerful explosions and shrapnel, but can't take a bullet. The overpressure from a nuclear explosion or any explosion near to it is enough to not only rip flesh from the bone, but also limbs apart. The heat from the nuke is also far more than enough to vaporize anything at it's epicenter in a nanosecond, yet there is Doomsday not even scratched by the attack and the following plummet back to Earth. The only person who has anything to compare to this is Thor and he wasn't being burnt alive the second he was touched by the heat.

You think it's possible the nuke blew up an inch away from DD's face before detonation? You do know that airburst nukes blow up hundreds of feet away from their target, right?

"You only see a few bullets bouncing off" and do you think after those bounced off, others pierced him?

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#245 Posted by death4bunnies (1489 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242:

So in your opinion does Thors Nidavlir feat count as piercing resistance?

I would also push back on the idea that only Diana has shown split durability, for example World War Hulk was pierced repeatedly but could withstand great blunt force without his skin breaking. 1000 other characters carry this tip of durability.

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#246 Edited by FlashFyr (476 posts) - - Show Bio

Man, everyone's already granted that Stormbreaker can cut DD just for argument's sake, no one wants to show that Thor can hit DD though. I'm guessing everyone is going to ignore how post nuke DD dodged 4 attacks and countered 3 from people who are massively faster than fat Thor, while fat Thor gets slapped by weaker, slower attacks.

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#247 Posted by Batman242 (11903 posts) - - Show Bio

@death4bunnies: What? No. What I said was if your body can resist high temperatures and overpressure enough to shred limbs from limbs, a bullet probably won't pierce you. Thor's feat counts as a feat of endurance more so than durability since it was harming him from the second he felt it.

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#248 Posted by Batman242 (11903 posts) - - Show Bio

@flashfyr: They're gonna avoid that argument at all costs.

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#249 Posted by death4bunnies (1489 posts) - - Show Bio

@flashfyr said:

Man, everyone's already granted that Stormbreaker can cut DD just for argument's sake, no one wants to show that Thor can hit DD though.

I spent like 6 hours yesterday showing it. You granted that Stormbreaker could cut DD for agreements sake; unless of course I just tagged the wrong person.

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#250 Edited by FlashFyr (476 posts) - - Show Bio

@death4bunnies: You have never made an argument that Thor is fast enough to get that one shot on DD. At the most you said that Mjolnir flying around would do something, where I already settled that DD has far more avenues to victory, can dodge, and is faster in all those avenues.