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#1 Edited by Sy8000 (35086 posts) - - Show Bio
Elektra
Elektra

vs

Nightwing and Red Hood
Nightwing and Red Hood

Rules:

  • Pre-new 52 Dick and Jason
  • Standard gear.
  • Morals on.
  • Dick and Jason will work together despite past differences.
  • They start 30 feet apart.
  • Fight takes place here:

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#2 Posted by jashro44 (52093 posts) - - Show Bio

The team should win. I think Elektra can beat either one on one but both at once will overwhelm her IMHO.

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#3 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43019 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

The team should win. I think Elektra can beat either one on one but both at once will overwhelm her IMHO.

basically

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#4 Posted by Saint_Sophie (7263 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

The team should win. I think Elektra can beat either one on one but both at once will overwhelm her IMHO.

basically

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#5 Posted by Doom_Phd (1505 posts) - - Show Bio

T

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#6 Posted by Doom_Phd (1505 posts) - - Show Bio

Team murderstomp.

One on one either can beat her as well.

If Matt can hold his own with her, you best believe Batman's best pupils can hold their own as well.

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#7 Posted by OreoAssassin (7625 posts) - - Show Bio

The Duo

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#8 Posted by Ultragreenboy (4218 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Dick and Jason can beat Matt as a team so they should take Electra with mid difficulty.

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#9 Posted by IndomitableRegal (15675 posts) - - Show Bio

The team win. Pre-new 52 Jason isn't as good as current Jason, but he'd still be able to give Electra a good fight and I honestly think Nightwing could beat her. Together, they win a strong majority.

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#10 Posted by hatemalingsia (15494 posts) - - Show Bio

The Team.

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#11 Edited by ULTRAstarkiller (9130 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by Sy8000 (35086 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like Elektra's getting undersold here.

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#13 Posted by Abyssdarkfire (1417 posts) - - Show Bio

Team medium-high difficulty neither can take her 1v1

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#14 Posted by Peterrubiohard (570 posts) - - Show Bio

Team.

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#15 Posted by Tedirey (2565 posts) - - Show Bio

Team

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#16 Posted by BruceRogers (17185 posts) - - Show Bio

Team's got this for a comfortable majority

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#17 Posted by dami24434 (4317 posts) - - Show Bio

Elektra loses 5/10. she's far better than either one on one.

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#18 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@dami24434: said:

Elektra loses 5/10. she's far better than either one on one.

The above statement would seem to be incorrect, since Grayson by himself can beat Elektra

(Due to the "Rebirth" storylines combining much of the Post Crisis and N52 histories and feats now, some N52 incidents are included; even if those few are removed, it is still enough to beat Elektra)

His resume:

Nightwing has-by category-defeated:

SKILLED: KGBeast (a man who stalemated Batman so thoroughly in the underground tunnels of Gotham in a long, protracted skirmish that Wayne was never able to KO him---he had to finally lock the 'Beast in a vault like room to "beat" him); R'as Al Ghul (a man who also has stalemated Batman in SEVERAL protracted battles---and Grayson did this directly after defeating at least a dozen League of Assassins ninjas); Shrike (who was skilled enough to capture Black Canary, and whom Nightwing had to defeat to rescue her); Cheshire (considered the second deadliest assassin in the DC universe); Talons (meta human, extremely skilled assassins with healing factors---in one case Nightwing achieved victory by impaling his escrema stick in the Talon's brain and disrupting the healing factor, showing he can be brutal AND deal with super human foes); The Immortal Warrior Matatoa (undefeated in several lifetimes until facing Grayson); Metal Eddie (a superhuman martial arts expert); Roy "Arsenal/Red Arrow" Harper (a man who can not only match Green Arrow in accuracy with arrows, but in who's hands ANYTHING is a weapon, AND who has Checkmate special ops training); Midnighter; Azrael; Red Hood; in Nightwing issue 113, Ravager (Deathstroke's meta human, highly combat skilled daughter---Grayson did this as she charged towards him with just one blow to her throat, and even Cassie Cain has not been able to defeat Ravager that quickly on the two occasions the highly skilled Cain and Ravager have thrown down); a perfect clone of Batman with his combat skills; and speaking of the Dark Knight, in Nightwing issue 30 volume 2, beat his mentor Batman in a long, bloody, brutal battle that left the Batcave in a complete and utter shambles.

SUPER STRONG: Both Blockbusters (the first one while still a CHILD in the mini series "Robin: Year One"); Man-Bat; Hardsell; Baron Blitzkreig; Killer Croc; A Slew of Gordanian Slavers and Branx Warriors SIMULTANEOUSLY (and Branx Warriors are combat skilled as well); an enhanced Joker (who, before facing Nightwing, was kicking Batman's a$$).

SUPER POWERED: Hal Jordan Green Lantern; Shock Trauma; Dr. Phosphorous; Electrocutioner: Captain Boomerang Jr. (who hurls lethal, gimmicked boomerangs and utilizes super speed); Dr. Light (who simultaneously took out Green Arrow and two teams of Titans).

SUPER POWERED AND SUPER STRONG: The Gargoyle (Grayson defeated the mystical Gargoyle, after he defeated and enthralled Grayson's SUPER POWERED Titans team mates, in the creature's own realm of Limbo); Cyborg; Clayface; Mr. Freeze

And Grayson has stalemated Cassie Cain on two occasions, and Deathstroke on multiple occasions, including when Grayson was in The Batman identity.

A feat for feat comparison between Nightwing and Elektra:

Elektra block machine-gun fire.

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Nightwing did the same with glass while also dodging the shots fired at him at close range

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Blitzes soldiers while sprinting.

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See above scans, plus

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Jumps over bullets.

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(Yawn) see above scans, and

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Jumps across a full warehouse without being seen.

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That's fine, but

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Observe http://i.imgur.com/ztcHHTR.jpg

Blitzes several agents of Shield.

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Nightwing blitzes a S.W.A.T. team

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Nightwing does the same to militia, after dodging their point blank shooting

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deflects bullets with her sai.

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Casually dodges projectile thrown at super human speed by the meta human Ravager http://i.imgur.com/3ZWPL1y.jpg

simultaneously deflects and pins an assassin with their own weapons http://i.imgur.com/D4nalA6.jpg

Block a bullet with her hand.

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Nightwing's suit withstands bullets http://i.imgur.com/50OSEiv.jpg and as shown above he's fast enough to dodge them

Plugs a shotgun with a sai.

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Casually fells a fleeing suspect from a long, long distance, to Tarrantula's shocked amazement

http://i.imgur.com/cTV3Bs7.jpg

Elektra beat Wolverine.

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Nightwing beat Talons (super skilled, super strong assassins with healing factors)

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Elektra beat Silver Samurai.

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Nightwing beat Midnighter

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/65/91/c3/6591c33a0b3111e552b419a81d233f52.png

http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Strategy-Tactics/grayson6-graysonvsmidnighter7.jpg.html

Elektra beat Bullseye.

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Nightwing beat Ravager who is meta humanly faster and stronger than Bullseye; Grayson defeated her even faster than the super skilled Cassie Cain when she and Ravager fought in two extended battles https://imgur.com/a/XqEjN#0

Stalemate with Daredevil.

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Nightwing defeated Batman, a better fighter, in an extended battle:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/3853430-nightwing+vs+batman+4.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111183975/4912074-4745361093-night.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/3853434-nightwing+vs+batman+8.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109071/4870149-0796904637-night.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109071/4870150-3787333936-night.jpg

As can be seen in the links to the scans above, Nightwing got the last blow in, dropped Batman on his a$$, and got Wayne to-figuratively speaking-tap out. Trying to lowball this encounter into being a "workout", "sparring session", or any other such cop out excuse is futile; both King and Seeley, the creators of the story confirm it was an "all out fight" that Grayson won.

Stalemate with Shang Chi.

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Nightwing stalemated Cassie Cain, easily Shang Chi's equal (if not superior)

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Elektra beat Taskmaster.

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Nightwing stalemated Slade Wilson when Grayson took over as Batman for a time

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/3169394-nightwing+vs+death+stroke+r2+2.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/58496/1630149-13.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/3169397-nightwing+vs+death+stroke+r2+5.jpg

http://68.media.tumblr.com/e4cb01615bafbe67bc7c7b554dd9c6f2/tumblr_inline_o5c3y2l0LN1rjgtnd_540.jpg

---as the scans shows, Grayson-as-Batman even got the last blow in, and prompted Slade to force Grayson to save those guards to give 'Stroke the opportunity to escape

Precision/Marksmanship, Incredible skills.

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"Precision/Marksmanship, Incredible skills" that is matched by Nightwing, as he casually snaps Arsenal/Red Arrow's weapon with freakin' nunchuks

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---and can hit somethting as small as an "on" switch with a wing ding while in the middle of dodging machine gun fire

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Elektra disarms Punisher with incredible speed.

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Nightwing reacted faster than Batman when they were ambushed, and in fact saved him from being blasted by machine guns

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Due to combat skill, LONGER experience against a wider range of foes (and in the fight game PERIOD), and a CURBSTOMP in tech advantage (the batons ALONE match the sais) it's clear the former Robin alone can beat Elektra.

When the Red Hood joins him against the neo Ninja:

NIGHTWING AND RED HOOD WINS.

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#19 Posted by MasterSkywalker (3609 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing and Jason for a comfortable majority. Although nobody is soloing here.

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#20 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

The team clearly wins.

Nightwing, due to stalemating or defeating multiple opponents in Elektra's tier can win by himself.

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#21 Posted by deactivated-5a89ca5697052 (8063 posts) - - Show Bio

Team takes this, but Elektra could beat either one on one.

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#22 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Edited by dami24434 (4317 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOneWhoKnows: no one said team couldn't win and most of those night wing showings you listed are not on par with Elektra's .

Elektra have meta human abilities.

silent scream:she can use this to ragdoll foes with the voice coming out of her mouth as displayed in Elektra:Assassin .

body swapping, mind reading (any thing grayson pulls with be countered due to Elektra reading his mind), outright mental assault, mind control (she can literally control his mind) she can disarm either them before they know what's up due to hand magic similar to what she did to the punisher.

nightwing can match her skill, heck no since:(Elektra gained the upper hand against iron fist and broke his arm)he can match her in strength but Elektra is more vicious and have better striking power, she's ripped people hearts out with ease,slice through hulk buster armor with her hand, Elektra is faster than either, nightwing's tech will be cancelled out by elektra's metahuman abilities, mostly mind reading.

since redhood is here, surely team takes the majority but one on one, she's beating either of them .

Elektra have beaten superhumans too, tiger shark, jack o lantern, blizzard , the serpent society etc... , Elektra did it without any prep or tech unlike nightwing

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#24 Posted by Nefarious (35647 posts) - - Show Bio

Elektra gets overwhelmed.

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#25 Posted by deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00 (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

Team.

Elektra can beat either of them 1v1 tho

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#26 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@dami24434: said:

no one said team couldn't win and most of those night wing showings you listed are not on par with Elektra's .

Yes they are.

Elektra have meta human abilities.

Nightwing has defeated meta humans---plenty of them, quite a few above her.

(silent scream:she can use this to ragdoll foes with the voice coming out of her mouth as displayed in Elektra:Assassin .

Perhaps---if Nightwing just stood still with his arms at his sides and just let her do that for some strange, unknown reason; she'd have to get the chance to do that, before Nightwing used his gear on her first. Doubtful, as he usually uses his gear in his fights before she resorts to that in her fights.

body swapping, mind reading (any thing grayson pulls with be countered due to Elektra reading his mind), outright mental assault, mind control (she can literally control his mind) she can disarm either them before they know what's up due to hand magic similar to what she did to the punisher.

Slade has advanced perception-I'd gather, far above Elektra-and Grayson has kept pace with him. Cassie has incredible precognition which usually lets her be "always a step-or two-ahead of her competition" and yet, as the scans show, Nightwing stalemated her (due to Grayson's leaping, flipping, even-he-doesn't-know-what-he's-going-to-do-next style, it is more difficult for her to body read him than more disciplined fighters like Slade and Batman) and Grayson has great will power; among other feats, he resisted the mind control of the antagonist Groom http://i.imgur.com/RGclfgk.jpg So, sorry---still no game changing advantage for Elektra

nightwing can match her skill, heck no since:(Elektra gained the upper hand against iron fist and broke his arm

Actually, heck yes, as Nightwing has defeated Batman and stalemated Cassie Cain twice, and those characters are two of the most skilled combatants in the DC universe

he can match her in strength but Elektra is more vicious

Nightwing has faced some of the most "vicious" individuals on the face of the Earth-Cheshire, Deathstroke, Brother Blood, The Joker (once, after some ehanements he had at the time allowed him to whip Batman's a$$), Blockbuster, R'as Al Ghul, etc.-since he was a child. Elektra's level of "viciousness" is absolutely nothing Grayson hasn't seen before, and triumphed over

and have better striking power, she's ripped people hearts out with ease (since Grayson has been showing the ability to do things like that from way back-chopped through multiple cinder blocks as a child-while the stern taskmaster Batman stood over him, telling him to "do it better"-it's clear Grayson could do that if he was a killer like Elektra)(,slice through hulk buster armor with her hand (A-Grayson has done something similar by kicking through an opponents titanium steel leg with one shot; B-also, even if he couldn't do stuff like that with his body, he could do the same with his gear-his lasers, wing dings, etc.-but he doesn't do that sort of thing---he just beats up people who do)Elektra is faster than either (no, she definitely is not), nightwing's tech will be cancelled out by elektra's metahuman abilities, mostly mind reading(many opponents at, and above Elektra's meta human capabilities were not able to "cancel out" Nightwing's tech; just your say so that she can overcome it when they couldn't is simply not legitimate proof of anything.

since redhood is here, surely team takes the majority but one on one, she's beating either of them .

Evidence indicates that your claim is incorrect

Elektra have beaten superhumans too, tiger shark, jack o lantern, blizzard , the serpent society etc... ,

If they both have beaten super humans, then her doing it gives her no game changing advantage. But his gear does-since they have similar stats, it is the edge-the advantage-the tie breaker that gives him the win

Elektra did it without any prep or tech unlike nightwing

(A) Not every metahuman Nightwing defeated, did he have prep, or use tech ( and (B) Even if he had, it wouldn't matter; a win is a win, as long as the tech is not prohibited in a battle, it doesn't matter if Nightwing uses tech or prep to win---and since he has stalemated or defeated opponents in Elektra's tier with sheer H2H, he doesn't need either. Tech or prep just ensures his victory.

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#27 Posted by lubub55 (12878 posts) - - Show Bio

Why was this bumped?

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#28 Posted by GothamCiti (2890 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by dami24434 (4317 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOneWhoKnows: Elektra have done better against the best in marvel, wolverine, ironfist, shang chi. elektra stalemating iron fist is far better than anything night wing has ever done skill wise.

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#30 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@dami24434said: Elektra have done better against the best in marvel, wolverine, ironfist, shang chi. elektra stalemating iron fist is far better than anything night wing has ever done skill wise. WRONG

Midnighter-(Wolverine Equivalent)

Midnighter's abilities were designed by Bendix to give him an all encompassing advantage in close-combat and tactical scenarios. He has superhuman strength, reflexes (and moving speed when necessary), healing, senses, aim and various other enhancements. He is said to have multiple redundant systems to keep him fighting in the worst of conditions. One example of this is a backup heart. Midnighter can also turn his pain receptors on and off so he can keep fighting when the pain would stop a normal man. The pain is not totally cut off though, so his healing factor is also very helpful. He's fought with, and healed from, a broken neck, broken limbs, holes through his chest, having his whole body set on fire, contracting various viruses (including AIDS), and other things. He can also function perfectly in anaerobic environments when necessary.

Here is Grayson taking care of business going one on one with this man:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/65/91/c3/6591c33a0b3111e552b419a81d233f52.png

http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Strategy-Tactics/grayson6-graysonvsmidnighter7.jpg.html

Batman-(Rough Equivalent To Shang Chi)

Batman has been said to be trained in every martial art known to man, and out of every single one of those forms of fighting, he knows 127 that are deadly. These 127 are the main forms of fighting that make up his normal fighting style. He is known to change his styles in order to become unpredictable to his opponents. His primary style of combat though is a mixture of Judo, Ninjitsu, Muay Thai, Tae Kwon Do, Jujitsu, Boxing, Karate and Dragon Style Kung Fu.

Batman's combat skill surpasses most metahumans and normal men, and he even knows every pressure point and nerve strike in the human body, as well as Dim Mak ("death touch") techniques. These can cause dangerous pain to his enemies which can lead to dizziness, numbness, unconsciousness, temporary paralysis, disorientation, and even death.

Due to his intense training and diet Batman has accomplished feats that normal human beings might call superhuman. Batman is in peak physical and mental condition. Batman has displayed surprising strength, and is able to bench press weight of at least 1000 pounds, and has personally stated that his maximum leg press weight is 2500 lbs (over 1.133 Kg). However, as shown in Batman Odyssey # 2, Batman was able to overcome his personal record leg press, moving, with the strength of the legs, a stuck railroad car. In Gotham After Midnight # 2, Batman was able to hold up two golden sarcophagi with the approximate weight of at least 1 ton, for at least one minute. In addition, Batman is an accomplished gymnast and acrobat, though not quite at the level of Nightwing.

Here is how Grayson fared against his mentor, one of the DC universe's greatest combatants in an extended battle:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/3853430-nightwing+vs+batman+4.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111183975/4912074-4745361093-night.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/3853434-nightwing+vs+batman+8.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109071/4870149-0796904637-night.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109071/4870150-3787333936-night.jpg

As can be seen in the links to the scans above, Nightwing got the last blow in, dropped Batman on his a$$, and got Wayne to-figuratively speaking-tap out. Trying to lowball this encounter into being a "workout", "sparring session", or any other such cop out excuse is futile; both King and Seeley, the creators of the story confirm it was an "all out fight" that Grayson won.

Nightwing even acquitted himself nicely by, despite having well deserved trepidation, going against Wayne in his "Super Bat"phase:

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/batman-vs-nightwing-superbat-1.jpg

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/batman-vs-nightwing-superbat-2.jpg

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/batman-vs-nightwing-superbat-4.jpg

Talons-(Another Wolverine Rough Equivalent)

There are an unspecified number of Talons in the employ of the Court of Owls, and as such their physical and mental abilities almost certainly differ from Talon to Talon.

William Cobb, the Talon who attacked Bruce Wayne in Old Wayne Tower and the Court's labyrinth, possessed a degree of enhanced speed (he was capable of moving out of an elevator and leaving two dead guards in his wake by the time it took Bruce and Lincoln March to turn their heads) and a degree of superhuman strength (he was unfazed by Bruce applying ten times the force it would take to collapse a normal man's windpipe).

In his first appearance, Cobb was shown to be able to heal and resurrect himself from a massive fall off Old Wayne Tower. It was later revealed that this was the result of the Court infusing his system with an unspecified chemical compound that could reanimate dead tissue and heal living tissue over and over again (in other words, a healing factor). The compound is fueled by body heat, and so exposing a Talon to conditions that could cause body temperatures to drop would also compromise their healing abilities. The Court refers to the process of infusing a Talon with this compound as "drinking from the cup of immortality". It is implied that all Talons undergo this process, and so all of them should possess similar regenerative capabilities.

Talon #1-Grayson displays he has the striking power to casually snap the knee tendon of a super human foe

https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11112/111123459/4267457-fighting+-+random+talon+vs+nightwing+1.jpg

Talon #2-Takes care of the Talon's whole "healing factor/regeneration" thing

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/96/f1/0c/96f10cf01ae5eb061cd62b9396aad403.jpg

Cassie Cain Batgirl-(Iron Fist Equivalent)

Unarmed Combat: Due to the harsh training she went through as a child, Cassandra is one of the greatest martial artists in the world and is a master assassin. Some of her feats include shattering brick and stone as well as a sword. She has used nerve strikes and pressure points. She has dodged bullets at point blank range and even disarmed a gunman before the bullet could hit her. She has invented her own styles and techniques. She can lift about twice her weight and carry 230 lbs while running.

Reading Body Language: She is skilled in being able to comprehend a person's body movements as if it were language or speech, and thus knows what actions a person will use before they actually do. Her ability to comprehend body language enables her to quickly learn new martial arts style, such as learning Escrima from a single sparring session with Oracle. After having her mind altered to think like a normal person, her ability to predict movements was lost. However, Lady Shiva retrained Cass to read body language.

Weapons-Master: She is also a master of different kinds of melee and ranged weaponry. Her time with Barbara Gordon and the Batman only enhanced her already considerable skills.

Nightwing stalemated Cassie Cain in Batman and the Outsiders issue 8 volume 2 before butler Alfred broke up the fight, and Batman and The Outsiders 14: "A Family Affair; here are scenes from the latter encounter:

No Caption Provided

Deathstroke The Terminator (Yet Another Wolverine Rough Equivalent)

Powers & Abilities

Super Strength / Speed / Endurance / Intellect

As a result of an experimental hormone therapy conducted by the US government, Slade became a super soldier. Unbeknown to Slade's superiors, the procedure boosted his brain capacity, increasing his coordination and stamina further than a human could process, becoming an enhanced human. His mind is like a computer built for strategy. Deathstroke's mental faculties are accelerated by a factor of 9, allowing him to think and perceive nine times faster, affording him a greatly superior reaction time.

Nightwing has been able to do this while fighting this senses, strength, speed, and endurance enhanced man using his superior H2H:

No Caption Provided
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and this

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And this, when Grayson took over as Batman for a time

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/3169394-nightwing+vs+death+stroke+r2+2.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/58496/1630149-13.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/3169397-nightwing+vs+death+stroke+r2+5.jpg

http://68.media.tumblr.com/e4cb01615bafbe67bc7c7b554dd9c6f2/tumblr_inline_o5c3y2l0LN1rjgtnd_540.jpg

---as the last example shows, Grayson-as-Batman even got the last blow in, and prompted Slade to force Grayson to save those guards to give 'Stroke the opportunity to escape. It is still the case that, due to his meta human attributes 'Stroke will always hold the edge over human opponents like Grayson. But:

The days when Slade could just punk Nightwing are long gone.

Considering the above evidence, there is no way a reasonable person can claim that Elektra has done-or can do-anything Nightwing hasn't, or can do. Even many of her extra sensory feats can be matched with Richard's gear http://i.imgur.com/U9vTgK9.jpg ---and this latter aspect-gear- is the tie breaker between the two...

For such evenly matched opponents, this kind of fight is usually resolved by a single, prominent advantage. Since Nighwing's electrical batons alone match her sais---the arsenal that curbstomps the ninja's gear-if it comes to that-will eventually, most likely, give Grayson the win.

Yes, it's true, while it is possible she could win---due to combat skill, LONGER experience against a wider range of foes (and in the fight game PERIOD), and a CURBSTOMP in tech advantage (the batons ALONE match the sais) it's more likely that:

NIGHTWING WINS.

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#31 Posted by dami24434 (4317 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOneWhoknows: cassandra cain is not on ironfist level though. ironfist is better than everyone night wing has fought skill wise.

ironfist recently defeated the one:the first ironfist while suffering from being shot by 6 arrows in the chest.

two trucks :possibly 80 tons of weight being dropped on him didn't even faze ironfist.

Ironfist took on a mind controlled shang chi and armies of other skilled phantoms with the knowledge of all the martial art in the world and he won.

elektra took on the same ironfist and held her own even going as far as breaking his arm.

talon is not on wolverine level:please this is not debatable, wolverine is the same guy that stomped frost giants , survive a nuke, wolverine has owned captain America in most of there fight, wolverine >>> talon, wolverine>>> pre 52 deathstroke too who nightwing matched.

dude:looks like you're standing with nightwing winning and I'm against it, looks like either one of us is not giving in anytime soon. let me tag someone with greater knowledge of Elektra's feats @owie: . (ignore the op , we here debating nightwing vs Elektra here. ) who wins in your opinion?

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#32 Posted by dami24434 (4317 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by ANTHP2000 (25855 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing can solo.

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#34 Posted by Amendment50 (15176 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 mid difficulty at worst.

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#35 Edited by Vertigo- (17683 posts) - - Show Bio

@dami24434:

ironfist recently defeated the one:the first ironfist while suffering from being shot by 6 arrows in the chest.

The One was not the first Iron Fist. That title belongs to Quan Yaozu. However, he did fight Quan for hours, with Quan only winning "barely". Then Quan went on to defeat Shou-Lao and become the first Iron Fist. This is all clearly lined out in Iron Fist 2017 issue 5

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#36 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@dami24434: said:

cassandra cain is not on ironfist level thoughYes, she is. ironfist is better than everyone night wing has fought skill wise. That's highly debatable

ironfist recently defeated the one:the first ironfist while suffering from being shot by 6 arrows in the chest.

Cassie was shot with four bullets in a fight and kept going (bullets are worse than arrows); in fact, getting shot and being able to continue to fight was part of her training

two trucks :possibly 80 tons of weight being dropped on him didn't even faze ironfist.

Cassie has plowed through a concrete wall in two almost casual hits, one shot smashed a three inch thick window made of quartz, fell multiple stories to the ground and survived with no injury

Ironfist took on a mind controlled shang chi and armies of other skilled phantoms with the knowledge of all the martial art in the world and he won.

Cassie has knocked out a mob of 50 in seconds before Tim Drake Robin could even react; one shot Lady Shiva while Cass had a broken arm at the time which she panfully reset in place afterwards-the proud Shiva vowed to slay Cass for this affront; dodged Supergirl's heat vision and Kara's attempt at blitzing her (to be fair, Supergirl wasn't in top shape at the time, but even a somewhat off her game Supergirl is still Supergirl; and battled the metahuman Deathstroke so thoroughly he had to set off a huge explosive to get her off him so he could get away

elektra took on the same ironfist and held her own even going as far as breaking his arm.

As you can see in the above scans, Nightwing took on that same Cassie and stalemated her (in non battle situations, he has shown to be faster than her while grappling, and racing to a destination-not just in a straight line-indicating Grayson is at least on par with her in combat and/or reaction speed, not just travel speed)-which, in addition to his unpredictable style is probably why he has managed to do as well against her

talon is not on wolverine level:please this is not debatable, Yes it is, but even if you took the Talons away, Midnighter and Slade are absolutely on Logan's level wolverine is the same guy that stomped frost giants , survive a nuke, wolverine has owned captain AmericaSlade has owned Captain America's rough equivalent Batman, as well as soloing a JLA team that included Wally West Flash and Kyle Rayner Green Lantern in most of there fight, wolverine >>> talon, wolverine>>> pre 52 deathstroke too who nightwing matched. That's your opinion; considering 'Strokes' feats, your opinion is highly debatable

dude:looks like you're standing with nightwing winning and I'm against it, looks like either one of us is not giving in anytime soon. Indeed, because every "advantage" you've listed for Elektra, I've matched with no problem let me tag someone with greater knowledge of Elektra's feats @owie: . (ignore the op , we here debating nightwing vs Elektra here. ) who wins in your opinion?

Yeah, speaking of which, Owie my friend, I have to get back to you on that thread regarding Elektra and Lady Shiva...

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#37 Edited by dami24434 (4317 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOneWhoKnows: please tell me you're not trying to compare cassandra cain's durability and striking power to iron fist.

and please show me cassie punching through people, like electra has done multiple times, or crushing skulls with one hand, or piercing someone like red she hulk with normal weapons like her sais, or karate chopping something as durable as hulk buster armor (shield version).

elektra hits harder than cassandra and unlike cassandra she won't hold back.

let's end this, team wins, I agree.

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#38 Posted by BruceRogers (17185 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@dami24434: said:

please tell me you're not trying to compare cassandra cain's durability and striking power to iron fist.

I am comparing her skill as equal, her speed (because of her feats, like moving so fast on one occasion Batman didn't get a single blow on her, or dodging multiple bullets after they were fired) as possibly superior, her durability (since she can take multiple bullets and keep fighting, and take several story drops without harm) as legitimately comparable, and her striking power to Rand when he doesn't use the Chi amped punches

and please show me cassie punching through people, like electra has done multiple times,

Excuse me? You don't think a woman who has punched through the things I detailed to you "can't" do the same to a human if she wanted to??? So regular humans are tougher than concrete and several inch thick quartz????

????

But, just for you https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-1953841/ I think a woman who can punch a person's head through the floor can crush a skull

or crushing skulls with one hand, once again-do you think a human skull is tougher than concrete that Cass has smashed? Not to mention, if she can effortlessly destroy a metal sword with one stroke http://i.imgur.com/anOI8vL.jpg I think it's a safe bet she can do the same to a human skull (unless you think a skull is harder than steel, too) or piercing someone like red she hulk with normal weapons like her sais, or karate chopping something as durable as hulk buster armor (shield version) Judging by observing her feats over the years-yes and yes.

elektra hits harder than cassandra (not when she strikes to kill like Elektra doesand unlike cassandra she won't hold back Doesn't matter; Cass has stood up to and chased off a non holding back meta human Deathstroke, defeated a non holding back David Cain (one of the most lethal, ruthless assassins and martial artists in the DC universe) defeated the meta human, non holding back Ravager twice, and defeated a non holding back Lady Shiva. So why you think Elektra's propensity to not "hold back" is "more special" than all of those characters I've just listed is soooo much"more special", that Elektra would accomplish what none of them could is unknown.

let's end this, team wins, I agree.

Cool, that outcome is definitely something we can agree on.

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#40 Posted by Helloman (28587 posts) - - Show Bio

The team wins.

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#41 Posted by Owie (7172 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhoknows: I'll get back to you on this. I respect what you did with the matching feats there. Don't totally agree with each one, and I am not as knowledgeable about Nightwing on the finer details, so it is helpful to have just had the BOTW with Deadpool vs Nightwing so I can discuss his fights with multiple perspectives. But anyway I'll reply in the next day or two.

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#42 Edited by Owie (7172 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhoknows:I'm going to respond primarily to the scan-for-scan comparison structure you set up in post 18. This won't address every point that has been made outside of that, either by you or other debaters. But it should hopefully make for a somewhat direct comparison. As I said above, I like what you did with this scan-for-scan comparison, and I think it was intended to be fair. However, I would use different examples for some of the categories, and would add several categories of my own. In these added categories, I'll just be adding Elektra feats, with the invitation that you add whatever Nightwing feats you think are best for those categories so that they can be compared.

I'm also going to make all the scans I use, both mine and yours, links instead of in-line images to keep this from getting too cluttered. I'm pretty sure many people just skip over the images when they're links, but I think it will help the clarity quite a bit as I re-present your examples and then add my own.

Category 1 (blocking gunfire), with links to your scans

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra block machine-gun fire.

Nightwing did the same with glass while also dodging the shots fired at him at close range

MY COMMENTS:

The scans of Elektra is a classic and a good example. I would also add these examples, showing that this ability to block numerous bullets individually remains a consistent feat and not an outlier: Blocks point-blank shots from Paladin with a pipe and especially Deflects NUMEROUS continuous machine-gun-style shots from a giant robot.

I truly can't tell what's going on in the Nightwing example. Are you saying he's throwing glass at the bullets? What I see here, and maybe if it was larger or if I saw more of the context I could better understand, is him throwing some of those metal wing-things and dodging some bullets. I don't really see the glass, or if that's it in the upper right corner I can't tell what's going on.

In any case, at least based on this evidence as I understand it, Elektra has massively higher speed and accuracy in the sense of being able to get her hands/weapons in the right place at the exact right time to stop numerous bullets.

Category 2 Blitzing fodder

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Blitzes soldiers while sprinting.

MY COMMENTS:

I think we can safely assume both characters can blitz small groups of soldiers and such.

But if we want to discuss meaningful-level battles against fodder:

Elektra routs an entire militia army. You can see the size in the first scan. Over the night, she kills numerous ones of them without every being caught or seen directly, and in the end causing enough fear in the rest of them for them all to leave.

Elektra and Wolverine kill what is at least hundreds if not thousands of Hand at once. This is a long collection of scans to show the details of exactly how many Hand were there. Wolverine doesn't even want to start the fight, saying "You're out of your mind! There's too many!"

Category 3 Dodging bullets/agility

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Jumps over bullets.

(Yawn) see above scans, and

MY COMMENTS:

I think we can also safely assume both characters are highly agile and can dodge bullets. Nightwing's example is a very good one. Nightwing's reputation as being one of the most agile in DC is well-earned. But Elektra is also highly agile.

So, I would add these for Elektra, which are significantly better than the one you used, which was only a single shot:

Dodges bullets while surrounded (at least 11 guns circled around her)

Dodges bullets from guards.

While in terrible shape after being continuously tortured by the Skrulls and the HAMMER, she dodges double-machine gun fire from maybe 10' away at most: one, two and then, she dodges double-machine gun fire from maybe 15' away.

Dodges continuous shots by robot

Dodges shot by the Black Widow (who Daredevil calls one of the three best shots he knows) from point blank range

Dodges multiple machine gun bullets.

I think Nightwing can match most of the above, I just wanted to make sure the examples are equal.

I will add only these two examples: First, she Does a crazy jump from one plane to another.

Second, and there is no way Nightwing is matching this, she RUNS ALONG A SWORD WHILE IT'S IN MID-AIR. [Mic drop!]

Category 4 Stealth

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Jumps across a full warehouse without being seen.

That's fine, but (breaks in to JLA HQ) scans one and two

MY COMMENTS:

Category 5 Blitzing fodder

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra Blitzes several agents of Shield.

Nightwing blitzes a S.W.A.T. team

Nightwing does the same to militia, after dodging their point blank shooting

MY COMMENTS:

Again, I think blitzing various small groups of agents isn't going to sway opinions one way or the other, so I won't get too much into this.

But, I would point out that in the incident you used, Elektra defeated all the agents in that SHIELD prison (which is their best prison) solely using paintball guns.

Category 6 Reacting to high-velocity objects

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra deflects bullets with her sai.

Casually dodges projectile thrown at super human speed by the meta human Ravager http://i.imgur.com/3ZWPL1y.jpg

simultaneously deflects and pins an assassin with their own weapons http://i.imgur.com/D4nalA6.jpg

MY COMMENTS:

I don't think the level of feats here is comparable. First, Elektra didn't deflect the bullet--she cut it in half.

Second, while it is true that a superhuman like Ravager can throw an object at high speeds, and so dodging it is a good feat, dodging it takes nowhere near the speed or body control it takes to intercept a bullet.

Deflecting an assassin's weapons and pinning her with them is also a good feat, but we can compare that with this feat, where she deflects a laser back at the shooter's (detached, robot) head.

Category 7 Durability

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra Block a bullet with her hand.

Nightwing's suit withstands bullets http://i.imgur.com/50OSEiv.jpg and as shown above he's fast enough to dodge them

MY COMMENTS:

I wouldn't argue against his suit's bullet-proof quality. But he does note that they hurt, that his arm is numb, and he has a broken rib.

But, when we get to striking power way below, I will argue that Elektra has striking power enough to penetrate a bullet-proof suit in any case.

To be fair, her bullet-proof hand is a one-time thing, I would normally not use that in her favor. However, if we take this category to be durability and pain tolerance, I have a number of examples to show that she can take pretty much any punishment she's likely to get in this fight:

Here she Ignores deadly wound from magical ice sword, says she heals quickly

Here she Is punched a long distance by a giant robot and is fine (and able to dodge attacks right after).

Here an enhanced Bullseye beats her down, to the degree that she can't move, her skull is broken, she has a brain hemorrhage, and is blind in one one, and eventually needs a steel plate in her head. This is the definition of beaten beyond the ability to fight. And then (full fight including getting hurt) she gets up out of pure willpower and beats the crap out of a bunch of Hand, their magical leader, and Bullseye.

After Perry, a super-formidable cyborg, breaks her leg and partially breaks her spine, she still ends up defeating him (not shown here).

Is blasted three times by a Skrull with Cyclops powers and while hurt is still able to kill it.

And my favorite, When she finds out Lady Bullseye can become incorporeal, she lets her stab her in the abdomen with a giant longsword, moving her body so all the important organs are out of the way. She seems completely fine after this, and even goes on to easily defeat Jack O'Lantern, Tiger Shark, and Whiplash, and then kill the leaders of the Assassins Guild as if she is completely uninjured. I need to emphasize that no matter how you move your organs out of the way, being stabbed completely through your abdomen should be a lethal injury, the fact that not only did she survive this at all, but acted as if she was totally fine, is an amazing feat of durability, not to mention pain tolerance.

Category 8 Accuracy

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra Plugs a shotgun with a sai.

Nightwing casually fells a fleeing suspect from a long, long distance, to Tarrantula's shocked amazement http://i.imgur.com/cTV3Bs7.jpg

MY COMMENTS:

Category 9 Fight

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra beat Wolverine.

Nightwing beat Talons (super skilled, super strong assassins with healing factors)

MY COMMENTS:

I think most people would actually consider that fight against Wolverine (more extensive version of the fight) a draw since it didn't get to completion. But she did have the advantage over him at multiple points. However, she did beat him earlier in Redeemer, a graphic novel which mixed typed text and experimental art.

I would strongly argue that a Talon is not equivalent to Wolverine, which I think you agreed to above eventually as well. It is a good feat though.

Category 10 Fight

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra beat Silver Samurai.

Nightwing beat Midnighter

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/65/91/c3/6591c33a0b3111e552b419a81d233f52.png

http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Strategy-Tactics/grayson6-graysonvsmidnighter7.jpg.html

MY COMMENTS:

Somewhat the opposite to the last category, I'd say that while beating Silver Samurai is impressive, beating Midnighter is better.

Category 11 Fight

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra beat Bullseye.

Nightwing beat Ravager who is meta humanly faster and stronger than Bullseye; Grayson defeated her even faster than the super skilled Cassie Cain when she and Ravager fought in two extended battles https://imgur.com/a/XqEjN#0

MY COMMENTS:

Elektra has actually beaten Bullseye three times. He is obviously her constant enemy, and each fight has been exhaustive and detailed. The first time, after he had been training extensively to beat her using a hologram; the second time, after she had just gotten away from being tortured for months by Skrulls and HAMMER; and the third time when he was enhanced by Hand magic.

Nightwing beating Ravager is very solid, for sure. But honestly taking her out so quickly, with her just sitting there rubbing her throat, feels like it didn't really give Ravager her due.

Category 12 Fight

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Stalemate with Daredevil.

Nightwing defeated Batman, a better fighter, in an extended battle:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/3853430-nightwing+vs+batman+4.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111183975/4912074-4745361093-night.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/3853434-nightwing+vs+batman+8.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109071/4870149-0796904637-night.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109071/4870150-3787333936-night.jpg

As can be seen in the links to the scans above, Nightwing got the last blow in, dropped Batman on his a$$, and got Wayne to-figuratively speaking-tap out. Trying to lowball this encounter into being a "workout", "sparring session", or any other such cop out excuse is futile; both King and Seeley, the creators of the story confirm it was an "all out fight" that Grayson won.

MY COMMENTS:

Elektra has extensively fought Daredevil a couple times: here they fight evenly until she wins via prep (your example); here she attacks him while bloodlusted and he mostly tries to stick to defending himself until eventually realizing he needs to fight back to survive (part one and part two); she hits him numerous more times than he does to her, and says he barely survived it here. He notes twice that her strikes almost killed him (the one "almost took his head off," the pulled kick that could have killed him). He also notes three times that there was a significant danger of losing or being killed (“has to stop this before she kills me,” he’s "got a chance” to win because she also sees something weird is going on, and “I almost died back there.”)

I don't consider Batman to be a better fighter than Daredevil in pure skill. I'd go with equal. Nightwing doing this well against Bruce is very good, and I do read it as a real fight. I don't read that last panel as a full admitting of defeat, but at least of not wanting to continue.

However, Batman has also beaten Dick in the past, so this seems to be one example where Nightwing tied/perhaps had a slight advantage, against a longer history of Batman being better. Whereas Elektra has tied/had the advantage over Matt in every encounter (including the ones where she kept knocking him in the the head with a sai by surprise).

Category 13 Fight

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Stalemate with Shang Chi.

Nightwing stalemated Cassie Cain, easily Shang Chi's equal (if not superior)

MY COMMENTS:

I accept Cass as Shang Chi's equal. But it's not clear to me that that's really a draw, at least from what's in there. I mean this in the sense that I don't know what happens next; this just seems like the start.

Category 14 Fight

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra beat Taskmaster.

Nightwing stalemated Slade Wilson when Grayson took over as Batman for a time

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/3169394-nightwing+vs+death+stroke+r2+2.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/58496/1630149-13.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/3169397-nightwing+vs+death+stroke+r2+5.jpg

http://68.media.tumblr.com/e4cb01615bafbe67bc7c7b554dd9c6f2/tumblr_inline_o5c3y2l0LN1rjgtnd_540.jpg

---as the scans shows, Grayson-as-Batman even got the last blow in, and prompted Slade to force Grayson to save those guards to give 'Stroke the opportunity to escape

MY COMMENTS:

Stalemating Deathstroke is good. But Deathstroke has also beaten him fairly in previous fights.

While Elektra clearly defeated Taskmaster, and in her previous loss to him, it was only due to him confusing her briefly while acting like Daredevil. (It is interesting that Dick uses the "switch up his fighting style twice, both here and in the Midnighter example, similar to what Taskmaster does here. However, since Elektra is not familiar with Dick's style, and Dick is not familiar with Mat's style, it has no effect on this fight.)

Elektra has the advantage in this comparison.

Comparison 15 Precision, marksmanship, skills

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Precision/Marksmanship, Incredible skills (Elektra cuts ribbon without touching forehead)

"Precision/Marksmanship, Incredible skills" that is matched by Nightwing, as he casually snaps Arsenal/Red Arrow's weapon with freakin' nunchuks

---and can hit somethting as small as an "on" switch with a wing ding while in the middle of dodging machine gun fire

MY COMMENTS:

Both good feats by Nightwing but I'd argue not quite at the level as Elektra's, which takes even more control. I've already addressed accuracy above, but I'll leave one more example: Elektra cuts a guy's limbs and head off, but in such a way that they stick together, and he stays alive, until he is nudged. This is an absurd level of skill.

Also, consider her disassembling a gun by a single touch here. If Nightwing tries to pull out any complex gear, she can just negate it with a touch.

Comparison 16 Reaction time/speed

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra disarms Punisher with incredible speed.

Nightwing reacted faster than Batman when they were ambushed, and in fact saved him from being blasted by machine guns

MY COMMENTS:

In the scene with Batman, it looks to me that Nightwing jumps to push Batman out of the way when Batman's back is turned to the shooter. So I don't see this as proof that Nightwing has better reaction time than Batman; we don't know if Batman even knew about the danger. A good reaction to danger on Dick's part, sure. But not the same as taking a gun out of a guy's hands from several feet away without him seeing you move.

Further, here is Wolverine, who has enhanced speed, commenting, "Man, she's fast." Here Wolverine Describes as "fantastically quick, and inherently dishonest, feinting and faking."

Or, here she steals Northstar's body from under the noses of Iceman, Polaris, and Dani Moonstar so fast they barely even register it ("What the hell was that?"): one, two, three

Here she Catches an arrow at 12. Here she says she can catch a bird in flight as a child. Here she Catches Punisher's thrown knife, says she can do this all day.

I could go on with her speed for a long time.

To all the above, I will now add:

Category 17: Extensive top-tier fight

Elektra ties with Iron Fist, arguably having the advantage over him (and hitting him more) until he wins via chi-blast.

Category 18: Striking power

Elektra's striking power is absurd. First, I saw something above about Nightwing ripping off a robot's arm. Here she Rips a super-strong robot’s arm off, just so we know they're equal in that.

But more importantly, she can strike with ridiculous force. I will in particular emphasize that she stabs the Hulk in the eyes, breaks Hulkbuster armor open with her hands, and on multiple occasions punches through body armor, as she could with Nightwing's bulletproof costume.

Elektra stabs Hulk in the eyes, clearly piercing his eyes with her sai.

Breaks Hulkbuster armor with her hands

Deforms thick steel door, curving it inward

While being tasered, she is still strong enough to punch through a guy’s body armor—not just his body—and was reaching for his heart.

Throws a sai into a gun barrel, the force of which then pushes the guy's hand and gun through his body armor and chest!

Knocks two multi-ton rock monsters off a ledge with one kick.

Punches through a guy and the wall behind him (possibly my favorite of the various times she has punched through people)

Punches through guy and pulls out his heart

Casually embeds a sword into brick

Rams a blunt pipe all the way through Paladin

Punches through Arcade's escape sphere

Slices through a grenade

She crushes a guy’s skull, or at least his jaw.

She crushes a skull, likening it to an eggshell, and also crushes a throat.

She pulls out a guy’s heart.

Cuts the head and hand off Perry, a nearly indestructible cyborg.

Worms her hand up through the inside of Perry's nearly indestructible head to destroy his brain.

Knocks out Morbius with double hits to the sides of his head with her sai handles. This era of Morbius has a significant healing factor, for instance being stabbed solidly through the torso by Stone, then being fine a few hours later.

Category 20: Random powered bad guys.

This is something you addressed above the feat-for-feat comparison, and we don't need to get too much into it. But Elektra has beaten all sorts of powered villains, as well as other skilled opponents I won't get into like Cape Crow and Lady Bullseye.

Here she basically one-shots enhanced versions of Jack O'lantern, Whiplash, and Tiger Shark, who normally fight Spider-man, Iron Man, and Namor. This is right after being stabbed through the torso.

Here she beats a whole rogue's gallery of villains off panel.

Here she is described as having killed "24 capes in 24 hours."

Category 21: Gear and more

You've said Nightwing's gear is way better. Perhaps better than just her sai, but Elektra often carries firearms and explosives, has a garrote in her sash, and also uses poison. Plus, she has often proved herself to be lethal using random objects even while fighting against opponents who have superior weapons, as for instance she did when she killed several well-armed Hand with shards of ice, well-armed agents of SHIELD with broken glass, several assassins with energy weapons using bamboo sticks, and disabled the well-armed Paladin with her own spit tooth. Or here she beats an armed guy using a thrown ashtray.

So in terms of both the gear she often carries beyond her sai, and her ability to use random objects as deadly weapons, then I'd say she is not so far below when it comes to gear.

Overall, I see Elektra having superior skill (cutting a guy apart but leaving him alive until touched), speed (still the Punisher gun scene), stealth (running on snow with no marks, running along a blade in flight), durability (stabbed through torso with no problem), and striking power (piercing Hulk's eyes, breaking Hulkbuster armor, punching through body armor), defeating fodder (100s of Hand) and a draw in agility. Their fights are both very good; I tend to want to avoid getting too deep into the hole of exactly which fights are better and which ones have more context to the win but the very least I'll say that Elektra's are certainly not worse.

I know you made further additions to some of the above points already, but I am trying to keep this already massive post somewhat less rambling so I will stick to this. If there are points you made in other posts that you'd like me to address I'd be happy to. Sorry for so putting so many damn scans in here but the point is to be clear that she has extensive, consistent, and superior feats in each of these categories. I will say in general that I had forgotten all about when Nightwing took over as Batman, he was pretty good then! But, I still see Elektra winning a decent majority over him. I'm not putting him down by any means, I just see Elektra as being on a higher level of accomplishment.

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#43 Posted by Necromancer76 (3769 posts) - - Show Bio

She’s not beating them both, though I’d imagine one is going down with her.

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#44 Posted by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: I've got matches for them, rest assured, but BLAST IT, man! You've done so many! Do you know how long it's going to take me to narrow my choices to align with what you have presented, arrange everything, then get my thoughts together to make a cogent post? Even replying to your non-scan comments alone is going to take awhile.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Heh.

You've done a good job, and I appreciate it, but dang, man.

Like I said, it's gonna take me a minute.

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#45 Posted by BlessedbyHorus (6319 posts) - - Show Bio

Why do people consider Elektra special? Nightwing alone would give her problems. Team takes this with ease.

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#46 Posted by cdiddyman911 (5531 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, this team can overwhelm her. Honestly, Nightwing does have a real chance against her one on one, so adding Red Hood solidifies the victory.

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#47 Edited by mr-luxcipher (7593 posts) - - Show Bio

Duo.

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#48 Posted by Owie (7172 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: I've got matches for them, rest assured, but BLAST IT, man! You've done so many! Do you know how long it's going to take me to narrow my choices to align with what you have presented, arrange everything, then get my thoughts together to make a cogent post? Even replying to your non-scan comments alone is going to take awhile.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Heh.

You've done a good job, and I appreciate it, but dang, man.

Like I said, it's gonna take me a minute.

Yeah I know, I really only meant to do a one scan replacement for each of the originals, and then got carried away. Sometimes the repetition of a certain feat is worthwhile in itself. Feel free to ignore most of it if you want. I have just been seeing a lot of Elektra vs Nightwing stuff recently and thought I'd better get this out there.

I'm about to go out of town for a week too, so if I get to reply to your reply, it will also take me a while.

**********

For those who are commenting on the fight as posted, I should clarify that she would lose a majority against both Jason and Dick, which to put it in Marvel terms would be like a fight against both Punisher and Daredevil. Elektra is pretty damn awesome, and one of Marvel's top tiers, but really no pure-human street leveler should win that.

Avatar image for theonewhoknows
#49 Edited by TheOneWhoKnows (4916 posts) - - Show Bio

You gave the permission. So now, it's time to

Release The Kraken!!!

@owie

I decided that the best way to respond to your post was to recreate it, then answer you statements point by point.

@theonewhoknows:I'm going to respond primarily to the scan-for-scan comparison structure you set up in post 18. This won't address every point that has been made outside of that, either by you or other debaters. But it should hopefully make for a somewhat direct comparison. As I said above, I like what you did with this scan-for-scan comparison, and I think it was intended to be fair. However, I would use different examples for some of the categories, and would add several categories of my own. In these added categories, I'll just be adding Elektra feats, with the invitation that you add whatever Nightwing feats you think are best for those categories so that they can be compared.

I'm also going to make all the scans I use, both mine and yours, links instead of in-line images to keep this from getting too cluttered. I'm pretty sure many people just skip over the images when they're links, but I think it will help the clarity quite a bit as I re-present your examples and then add my own.

Category 1 (blocking gunfire), with links to your scans

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra block machine-gun fire.

Nightwing did the same with glass while also dodging the shots fired at him at close range

MY COMMENTS:

The scans of Elektra is a classic and a good example. I would also add these examples, showing that this ability to block numerous bullets individually remains a consistent feat and not an outlier: Blocks point-blank shots from Paladin with a pipe and especially Deflects NUMEROUS continuous machine-gun-style shots from a giant robot.

I truly can't tell what's going on in the Nightwing example. Are you saying he's throwing glass at the bullets? What I see here, and maybe if it was larger or if I saw more of the context I could better understand, is him throwing some of those metal wing-things and dodging some bullets. I don't really see the glass, or if that's it in the upper right corner I can't tell what's going on.

In any case, at least based on this evidence as I understand it, Elektra has massively higher speed and accuracy in the sense of being able to get her hands/weapons in the right place at the exact right time to stop numerous bullets.

OKAY, NOW MY COMMENTS:

Even if, for arguments sake, you "disqualified" the "Block With Glass" feat by Nightwing, that is not the first time Grayson has blocked bullets; here, while in the Batman persona he proves fast enough to block a point blank bullet barrage from a machine gun http://i.imgur.com/UUl6x90.jpg then dispatches the problem effortlessly-so Nightwing can match Elektra in this area, no doubt.

Category 2 Blitzing fodder

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Blitzes soldiers while sprinting.

MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):

I think we can safely assume both characters can blitz small groups of soldiers and such.

But if we want to discuss meaningful-level battles against fodder:

Elektra routs an entire militia army. You can see the size in the first scan. Over the night, she kills numerous ones of them without every being caught or seen directly, and in the end causing enough fear in the rest of them for them all to leave.

That's pretty cool. Nightwing-in the comparatively tight space of the Batcave-took out an army of R'as Al Ghul's League Of Assassins Ninjas (the ball gets rolling when Grayson uses his acute senses to discern one of the lurking, expert in stealth ninjas was laying in wait in the dark, dispatches him with an escrima stick, then deals with the rest of the clan

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Elektra and Wolverine kill what is at least hundreds if not thousands of Hand at once. This is a long collection of scans to show the details of exactly how many Hand were there. Wolverine doesn't even want to start the fight, saying "You're out of your mind! There's too many!"

Nice. Here is Grayson-when he was Robin-alongside Cyborg and Beast Boy-fighting an army of Branx Warriors, huge combat skilled aliens at least as strong as 10 men https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/S/cmx-images-prod/Item/14871/Previews/67045e0a4f16829207907c7f29984191._SX1280_QL80_TTD_.jpg

https://img0.etsystatic.com/188/0/9340224/il_570xN.1210771614_tpy8.jpg

To my intense frustration, I couldn't find an isolated sequence of scans where Grayson-blood lusted because he thinks they have slain his soon to be girlfriend Starfire-wades into a hoard of Branx Warriors and Gordanian Slavers (another race of large, super strong aliens) simultaneously, using his speed, acrobatics, and combat skills to disarm them of their own weapons and take them all out to get to, and comfort Starfire.

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The best I could find is the moments before, and a write up of the incident:

However, she's not there when Robin, Changeling, and Cyborg see Starfire's beaten body a little while later.


Click to enlarge.

That's when Robin really loses everything. He thinks Starfire's dead and, without planning, without thinking, he just attacks a room full of the biggest, baddest warriors you can imagine, to save her.

Grayson preformed the last feat as a teenager, when he was not yet 18 years old.

Conclusion: the above evidence shows Elektra has no advantage in this area.

Category 3 Dodging bullets/agility

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Jumps over bullets.

(Yawn) see above scans, and

MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):

I think we can also safely assume both characters are highly agile and can dodge bullets. Nightwing's example is a very good one. Nightwing's reputation as being one of the most agile in DC is well-earned. But Elektra is also highly agile.

So, I would add these for Elektra, which are significantly better than the one you used, which was only a single shot:

Dodges bullets while surrounded (at least 11 guns circled around her)Nightwing dodges at least that many (probably more, look closely at how many goons are on the ground shooting at him) while he is in mid airhttps://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111212973/5367948-0982880853-44034.jpg

Dodges bullets from guards.Nightwing rushing towards thugs shooting at him, dodging the gun shots all the whilehttps://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111212973/5367950-8604256563-Pzxae.jpg

While in terrible shape after being continuously tortured by the Skrulls and the HAMMER, she dodges double-machine gun fire from maybe 10' away at most: one, two and then, she dodges double-machine gun fire from maybe 15' away. Nightwing is hit from behind by high caliber gun shots, gets back up due to his suit (cops think it's kevlar, and Grayson confirms his suit is tougher than that by musing that kevlar is outdated https://imgur.com/a/TfytF

Dodges continuous shots by robotNightwing dodges continuous heat vision shots from the ultimate robot, Amazo https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111180200/4179832-3339788886-Batma.jpg

Dodges shot by the Black Widow (who Daredevil calls one of the three best shots he knows) from point blank range

Grayson, while in the Batman I.D. dodges the point blank range of a gun right on his skull, resting on his temple-he amazingly appears to move after the bullet from gun has been shot http://i.imgur.com/dhSJIEf.jpg

Dodges multiple machine gun bullets. Nightwing dodges a row of multiple automated machine gun bullets sprung on him by surprise by Jason "Red Hood" Toddhttps://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111176114/5382000-5063450-bat638-autofire.jpg

I think Nightwing can match most of the above, (Right you are!) I just wanted to make sure the examples are equal.

I will add only these two examples: First, she Does a crazy jump from one plane to another.

Did somebody mention "crazy jumps and planes"??? So many options---where do I start??? Grayson was doing things like that when he was a child, during his Robin years https://imgur.com/a/iNhjN ; is shot at from a helicopter, saves people from the crashing of that helicopter https://imgur.com/a/Jxrd0 ; as one of his Outsiders team mates notes about Nightwing, "The pretty boy who just jumped out of a plane without a parachute is calling the shots" http://i.imgur.com/sfIIRUG.jpg ---I keepa' tellin' ya---Nigtwing is a baa-aaaaa-dd man

Second, and there is no way Nightwing is matching this, she RUNS ALONG A SWORD WHILE IT'S IN MID-AIR. [Mic drop!]

Tweeeeet! Flag on the play for excessive, and premature celebrating! (A) Even if what was just claimed was true, Elektra hasn't quite matched Grayson's "Jumping from planes" prowess, so things even out overall, and it's a wash, and (B) I truly don't want to seem like I'm dismissing the feat, because it is absolutely impressive looking. But in terms of being useful in a fight, it seems to be more of a parlor trick. I mean, in the context of being useful in a fight, does it denote agility soooooo above this http://i.imgur.com/cbTmoDT.jpg (Grayson shows off exemplary "impressive balance" indeed there)? It kind of reminds me of what Bruce Lee once said about the visually impressive looking feat of people breaking boards when applied to an actual fight: "Boards don't hit back". While cool looking, I honestly don't see how it shows her having agility that is a match, yet alone is legitimately superior to Nightwing.

Category 4 Stealth

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Jumps across a full warehouse without being seen.

That's fine, but (breaks in to JLA HQ) scans one and two

MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):

Breaking into JLA HQ is obviously excellent. But the Elektra scan, while a good scan in general, does not get across her incredible levels of stealth:

Disappears in front of Stick’s GhostNightwing disappears in front of the mayor, despite their being in a locked room together https://imgur.com/a/PD1g5

Stealth on a jeep (disappears and reappears multiple times in plain sight)Nightwing sneaks into another security heavy building, the D.E.O., to the head man's Mr. Bone's shocked consternationhttp://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpTdGVhbHRoL3RoZXRpdGFuczMyLWRlby5qcGc=/?ref=

Disap pears while fighting Skrulls Grayson instantly detects the super stealthy Batman's presencehttp://i.imgur.com/Z15eIoX.jpg

While Daredevil is fighting some Hand, Elektra kills another Hand in the next room, and he never senses that she's there with either enhanced senses or radar sense

Elektra catches a radar-less (but not enhanced-senses-less) Daredevil by surprise and smacks him in the head with a thrown saiThe last two stealth feats are easily matched here, when Nightwing catches not just one man, but an entire, security sensitive government agency, Checkmate, laden with anti intruder tech by surprise---by sneaking in and ambushing Black Queen in her very lair

http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad166/themanwonder/Stealth/th_checkmate13-castle2.jpg

http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad166/themanwonder/Stealth/th_checkmate13-castle3.jpg

The above once again proves quite handily that Grayson infiltrating JLI headquarters was no fluke

Disappears while directly next to Spider-man 2099 (who has enhanced senses) and Captain American 2099.

Fights Iron Man 2099. She disappears in plain sight over a cliff’s edge, and is only picked up by his electronic detection. Note that this isn’t just normal Iron Man level tech, but future Iron Man tech.

The last two stealth feats are outshone by Nightwing catching Batman unawares-difficult enough to do against "regular" Batman due to his extraordinarily trained senses-when Wayne was developing Superman's powers, including his super hearinghttps://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111176114/5458328-20160927_215210.jpg

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111176114/5458327-20160927_215237.jpg

A bit more of Grayson bravely facing Wayne in his "Super Bat" persona is displayed in the "Nightwing vs. Batman" section of post 30

Fights Iron Man 2099. She disappears in plain sight over a cliff’s edge, and is only picked up by his electronic detection. Note that this isn’t just normal Iron Man level tech, but future Iron Man tech.Nightwing does even better by slipping out of a room and going to another one before the actual Superman noticeshttps://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-5458330 , then https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-5458329

Disappears over the edge of a roof in front of Iron Fist, reappears from the other direction, very similar to the Iron Man 2099 feat.Nightwing disappears over the edge of a roof in front of not just one man, but several as he muses how Batman taught him how to vanish into thin air http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpTdGVhbHRoL253NzItc2hhZG93c3RlYWx0aC5qcGc=/?ref=

Elektra catches a sick Daredevil by surprise and smacks him in the head with a thrown saiDespite her incredible super speed, Jesse Quick is unable to find Nightwing even after an hour of tryinghttp://i.imgur.com/nLValXW.jpg

Takes a suitcase a guy is guarding, and then returns it, without him or anyone else noticing

Nightwing does to Batman what the Dark Knight normally does to everyone else http://i.imgur.com/KeZSJJL.jpg

Runs across the snow without leaving a trace, then confirmation of the same scene elsewhere: She runs on the snow without a mark at the age of 12Grayson (in this instance, while in the Batman I.D.) has gear that allows him similar featshttp://i.imgur.com/f0zPajR.jpg

Category 5 Blitzing fodder

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra Blitzes several agents of Shield.

Nightwing blitzes a S.W.A.T. team

Nightwing does the same to militia, after dodging their point blank shooting

MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):

Again, I think blitzing various small groups of agents isn't going to sway opinions one way or the other, so I won't get too much into this.

But, I would point out that in the incident you used, Elektra defeated all the agents in that SHIELD prison (which is their best prison) solely using paintball guns.That's cool, I guess. But I honestly don't understand what discernible difference that makes in showing who is more effective in blitzing fodder.

Conclusion: No relevant advantage to either character

Category 6 Reacting to high-velocity objects

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra deflects bullets with her sai.

Casually dodges projectile thrown at super human speed by the meta human Ravager http://i.imgur.com/3ZWPL1y.jpg

simultaneously deflects and pins an assassin with their own weapons http://i.imgur.com/D4nalA6.jpg

MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):

I don't think the level of feats here is comparable. First, Elektra didn't deflect the bullet--she cut it in half.

Second, while it is true that a superhuman like Ravager can throw an object at high speeds, and so dodging it is a good feat, dodging it takes nowhere near the speed or body control it takes to intercept a bullet. Objectively speaking---I can somewhat agree with that, though a case can be made,I feel, that the hand/eye coordination required to dodge something thrown with meta human speed and strength is comparable. But let's say for arguments sake what you say is true---I think this example of Grayson-as Batman-hitting a would be shooter with the bat taser without turning around

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpNYXJrc21lbnNoaXAvZGV0ZWN0aXZlODcxLWZpbmdlcnRhc2VyMS5qcGc=/?ref=

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpNYXJrc21lbnNoaXAvZGV0ZWN0aXZlODcxLWZpbmdlcnRhc2VyMi5qcGc=/?ref=

is comparable enough

Deflecting an assassin's weapons and pinning her with them is also a good feat, but we can compare that with this feat, where she deflects a laser back at the shooter's (detached, robot) head.Nightwing-using bank shots, yet-blocked a powerful beam by throwing his wing ding to intercept it (unfortunately, the beam was too powerful to be blocked, but Grayson did accurately intercept the beam with his tosshttp://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpNYXJrc21lbnNoaXAvYWN0aW9uY29taWNzODQxLXdpbmdzdHJlYW0yLmpwZw==/?ref=

Category 7 Durability

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra Block a bullet with her hand.

Nightwing's suit withstands bullets http://i.imgur.com/50OSEiv.jpg and as shown above he's fast enough to dodge them

MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):

I wouldn't argue against his suit's bullet-proof quality. But he does note that they hurt, that his arm is numb, and he has a broken rib.

But, when we get to striking power way below, I will argue that Elektra has striking power enough to penetrate a bullet-proof suit in any case.

To be fair, her bullet-proof hand is a one-time thing, I would normally not use that in her favor. However, if we take this category to be durability and pain tolerance, I have a number of examples to show that she can take pretty much any punishment she's likely to get in this fight (Then it's a wash, because Grayson has shown he can take an at least as formidable amount of punishment as well):

Here she Ignores deadly wound from magical ice sword, says she heals quicklyGrayson (in his Batman persona) was stabbed with the ghostly, ethereal sword of the villain White Knight, immediately attacks him back while calling him delusional and telling him to "shut up"http://i.imgur.com/HHD0O8Z.jpg then goes on to defeat him

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpFbmR1cmFuY2UvYmF0bWFucm9iaW4yMi13aGl0ZWtuaWdodDMuanBn/?ref=

Here she Is punched a long distance by a giant robot and is fine (and able to dodge attacks right after). Here, Nightwing is punched by a giant Ice Monster and is fine afterwards, able to bark orders and instructions to the motley, rag tag crew assembled to help him deal with the creaturehttps://imgur.com/HbxFzBgFor that matter, Grayson has displayed great endurance since childhood, displaying this quality when, as Robin he withstands close proximity to a massive explosion https://imgur.com/a/3q3Sland appearing relatively fine later in the Batcave when he discusses the incident with Batman https://imgur.com/9L4WWtR

Here an enhanced Bullseye beats her down, to the degree that she can't move, her skull is broken, she has a brain hemorrhage, and is blind in one one, and eventually needs a steel plate in her head. This is the definition of beaten beyond the ability to fight. And then (full fight including getting hurt) she gets up out of pure willpower and beats the crap out of a bunch of Hand, their magical leader, and Bullseye.

The above example is an absolutely amazing example of the she ninja's seemingly endless supply of stamina, endurance, and indomitable will to go on no matter what. Grayson has matched this, in my view:

WILL POWER-Grayson went 10 days with virtually no food or water in a sweltering desert-even lasting longer and going further than Midnighter who is an enhanced individual https://imgur.com/a/1B8bL

ENDURANCE/DURABILITY-Despite being hit in the face with tranquilizers, gassed point blank with fear toxin, and electrocuted by an out of control Jason Todd https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/60791/4278439-6035337176-Battl.jpg Nightwing went on to defeat the once and future Red Hood https://imgur.com/a/V2re5

After Perry, a super-formidable cyborg, breaks her leg and partially breaks her spine, she still ends up defeating him (not shown here).

Nightwing defeats the stronger than him, alien warrior Hawkman https://imgur.com/a/424Kc#0 the costs and wounds from the battle are made clear here https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/nightwing-marries-oracle-1.jpg

Is blasted three times by a Skrull with Cyclops powers and while hurt is still able to kill it.

Grayson withstood a potentially lethal speed blitz from a female speedster https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111132338/4035105-9195416964-grays.jpg long enough to fire a pistol, cleverly making the muzzle flash impair her vision and make her crash into a wall http://rs932.pbsrc.com/albums/ad166/themanwonder/Strategy-Tactics/grayson2-dickvspeedster2.jpg~c200

And my favorite, When she finds out Lady Bullseye can become incorporeal, she lets her stab her in the abdomen with a giant longsword, moving her body so all the important organs are out of the way. She seems completely fine after this, and even goes on to easily defeat Jack O'Lantern, Tiger Shark, and Whiplash, and then kill the leaders of the Assassins Guild as if she is completely uninjured. I need to emphasize that no matter how you move your organs out of the way, being stabbed completely through your abdomen should be a lethal injury, the fact that not only did she survive this at all, but acted as if she was totally fine, is an amazing feat of durability, not to mention pain tolerance.

I absolutely agree that this is a stellar endurance feat by Elektra. But is it honestly sooooo much better than Nightwing getting stabbed in 5 different placeshttps://imgur.com/a/30eBY then going on to defeat the meta human, combat skilled, healing factor having Talon I mentioned earlier https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/96/f1/0c/96f10cf01ae5eb061cd62b9396aad403.jpg or taking these devastating slashes from Paragon's Plasma Cutters https://imgur.com/tnai7Lg which were powerful enough to level buildings, and just shred people like this https://imgur.com/wu0g6OY yet Nightwing, despite such violent trauma went on to defeat him https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/120679/2577613-nightwing_012_15.jpg ; or taking three consecutive huuuge explosions at close range, yet going on to beat up The Joker anyway rhttps://imgur.com/a/nf65m

Comparing the two in this category, I don't think it's out of line to say that Nightwing is easily comparable-even superior-to Elektra.

Category 8 Accuracy

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra Plugs a shotgun with a sai.

Nightwing casually fells a fleeing suspect from a long, long distance, to Tarrantula's shocked amazement http://i.imgur.com/cTV3Bs7.jpg

MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):

This "throw a sai into a gun" thing is actually a repeated feat for Elektra, as you'll see. Here are a number of other high level accuracy feats for her. Cool; let's see if Nightwing has similar feats to match that, and other Elektra endeavors

Disarms with a sai Nightwing disarms with his escrimas-using ricochet shots, at that http://i.imgur.com/T3rkRqq.jpg

cuts head off flyThat is impressive---but I'm honestly not sure it requires waaaaay more skill than the earlier feat of Niightwing's that I featured of him, from a distance, needing just one shot to hit a tiny "Off" button with a wing ding---while dodging multiple machine gun shots at the same time; also, here's another example of Grayson's accuracy, hitting an assailant with a wing ding-in no look fashion-trying to ambush him from behind http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpNYXJrc21lbnNoaXAvbnc2Mi1yaW90LmpwZw==/?ref=

Throws sai into shuriken holeNightwing dodges their machine gun shots, then disarms not one, not two, but three soldiers by throwing three wing dings and jamming their rifles http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpNYXJrc21lbnNoaXAvYm1ud2Jsb29kYm9ybmUtc29sZGllcnMxLmpwZw==/?ref=

Throws sai into already-aimed pistol. Nightwing defeats armored opponents by creatively throwing a flashlighthttp://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpNYXJrc21lbnNoaXAvbndtaW5pMi1mbGFzaGxpZ2h0MS5qcGc=/?ref=

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpNYXJrc21lbnNoaXAvbndtaW5pMi1mbGFzaGxpZ2h0Mi5qcGc=/?ref=

Throws a sai into a gun barrel (which she threw so hard the gun and hand then go through the guy's body armor and chest)Grayson while shielding his eyes-and thus displaying his incredible skill-throws a wing ding hard enough to go straight through a Gorgon's skull-thwarting her efforts to turn people into stonehttp://i.imgur.com/ScRKMRY.jpg

Throws a sai into one gun barrel while simultaneously disarming the other with a shurikenGrayson as a child in his Robin persona dodges bullets, simultaneously takes out three gunmen with pool ballshttp://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpNYXJrc21lbnNoaXAvcm9iaW55MS1wb29sYmFsbHMxLmpwZw==/?ref=

Throws a sai into a gun barrel, which explodes, and then shoots the sai back at her where she catches itNightwing does something very similar-follow this sequence to the last panelhttp://i.imgur.com/LqJxleh.jpg

She shoots an arrow into a gun barrel. Nightwing knows how to use arrows as well, in the following situation looking like his friend Roy "Arsenal/Red Arrow" Harper http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpNYXJrc21lbnNoaXAvYWN0aW9ud2Vla2x5NjMxLW5pZ2h0YXJyb3cuanBn/?ref=

Throws shuriken into camera from a distance while running

With pinpoint, "no look" accuracy, Grayson takes out an opponent attacking him from behind with a well placed throw of his escrima stick http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpBZ2lsaXR5LVNwZWVkL3RpdGFuc2h1bnQxLWdyYXlzb25hY2N1cmFjeXNwZWVkMS5qcGc=/?ref=

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpBZ2lsaXR5LVNwZWVkL3RpdGFuc2h1bnQxLWdyYXlzb25hY2N1cmFjeXNwZWVkMi5qcGc=/?ref=

After stealing SHIELD security details, she goes behind the wall where her target is sitting and stabs him through the heart (without any direct physical sensation of where he is).While taking out one set of opponents, Nightwing casually takes out others with a single ricocheting cue ball http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpNYXJrc21lbnNoaXAvbnc3LThiYWxsLmpwZw==/?ref=

Throws sai into cable from a distanceNightwing does something at least equally as difficult-throws a wing ding at the fleeing villain Marionette who is several yards away-not at her, which would be difficult enough to hit a moving target, but the strap to her satchel https://imgur.com/t6FI5Wx

She shoots a guy in the neck with a crossbow from several hundred yards away while she is on a carnival ride rotating one direction and the target is on a ride rotating the other direction. The narrator emphasizes the skill it takes to do this. (Assassin)Grayson stopped a man from choking him by hitting him with a ricochet shot from throwing his gun off a post while atop a speeding trainhttps://assets.rbl.ms/11697838/980x.jpg

Category 9 Fight

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra beat Wolverine.

Nightwing beat Talons (super skilled, super strong assassins with healing factors)

MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):

I think most people would actually consider that fight against Wolverine (more extensive version of the fight) a draw since it didn't get to completion. But she did have the advantage over him at multiple points. However, she did beat him earlier in Redeemer, a graphic novel which mixed typed text and experimental art.

I would strongly argue that a Talon is not equivalent to Wolverine, which I think you agreed to above eventually as well. It is a good feat though.

A) Wolverine is technically above a Talon, but they have similar meta human abilities, and Talons and the mutant both have generations long acquired fighting skills (hence, my use of the term "rough" equivalent) (B) Because Nightwing has defeated more than one of them-proving this is not a fluke-I believe the quantity of Grayson beating them equals the quality of Elektra's encounters with Logan, and (C) as I mentioned previously, even if one still dismisses the Talons as being in Wolverine's tier---opponents such as Midnighter and Slade-who Grayson has stalemated in several protracted battles, or defeated-definitely are in Logan's class, proving that Nightwing matches Elektra in being able to compete against that caliber and class of opponent, and making the whole matter, therefore, kinda moot.

Category 10 Fight

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra beat Silver Samurai.

Nightwing beat Midnighter

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/65/91/c3/6591c33a0b3111e552b419a81d233f52.png

http://s932.photobucket.com/user/themanwonder/media/Strategy-Tactics/grayson6-graysonvsmidnighter7.jpg.html

MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):

Somewhat the opposite to the last category, I'd say that while beating Silver Samurai is impressive, beating Midnighter is better.

Category 11 Fight

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra beat Bullseye.

Nightwing beat Ravager who is meta humanly faster and stronger than Bullseye; Grayson defeated her even faster than the super skilled Cassie Cain when she and Ravager fought in two extended battles https://imgur.com/a/XqEjN#0

MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):

Elektra has actually beaten Bullseye three times. He is obviously her constant enemy, and each fight has been exhaustive and detailed. The first time, after he had been training extensively to beat her using a hologram; the second time, after she had just gotten away from being tortured for months by Skrulls and HAMMER; and the third time when he was enhanced by Hand magic.

Nightwing beating Ravager is very solid, for sure. But honestly taking her out so quickly, with her just sitting there rubbing her throat, feels like it didn't really give Ravager her due.

That's a fair point. But it can be argued that a man who can stalelmate her father Slade on multiple occasions and defeat Midnighter twice-not to mention the feats you'll soon see in Category 20-is capable of defeating Ravager quickly in this one instance-especially since she was angry, and perhaps not fighting at her best at the time

Category 12 Fight

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Stalemate with Daredevil.

Nightwing defeated Batman, a better fighter, in an extended battle:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/3853430-nightwing+vs+batman+4.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111183975/4912074-4745361093-night.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/3853434-nightwing+vs+batman+8.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109071/4870149-0796904637-night.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109071/4870150-3787333936-night.jpg

As can be seen in the links to the scans above, Nightwing got the last blow in, dropped Batman on his a$$, and got Wayne to-figuratively speaking-tap out. Trying to lowball this encounter into being a "workout", "sparring session", or any other such cop out excuse is futile; both King and Seeley, the creators of the story confirm it was an "all out fight" that Grayson won.

MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):

Elektra has extensively fought Daredevil a couple times: here they fight evenly until she wins via prep (your example); here she attacks him while bloodlusted and he mostly tries to stick to defending himself until eventually realizing he needs to fight back to survive (part one and part two); she hits him numerous more times than he does to her, and says he barely survived it here. He notes twice that her strikes almost killed him (the one "almost took his head off," the pulled kick that could have killed him). He also notes three times that there was a significant danger of losing or being killed (“has to stop this before she kills me,” he’s "got a chance” to win because she also sees something weird is going on, and “I almost died back there.”)

I don't consider Batman to be a better fighter than Daredevil in pure skill. I'd go with equal. I disagree with the two being equals; but even if for arguments sake they are, Grayson defeating an opponent equal to one Elektra did shows she has nothing on Grayson's prowess Nightwing doing this well against Bruce is very good, and I do read it as a real fight. I don't read that last panel as a full admitting of defeat, but at least of not wanting to continue. With respect (A) Wayne stipulated at the beginning of the fight that for it to end, Grayson had to win (nothing less would convince the Caped Crusader that Grayson hadn't lost his nerve after the events of the "Forever Evil" mini series); Wayne not being able and/or willing to continue-i.e., figuratively tapping out-concludes the guidelines of the fight's "contract" (B)-as mentioned before, the creators King and Seely state Grayson won. Your personal feelings-because you apparently feel that shouldn't happen-cannot overrule what the actual architects of the story say happened.

However, Batman has also beaten Dick in the past, so this seems to be one example where Nightwing tied/perhaps had a slight advantage, against a longer history of Batman being better. Whereas Elektra has tied/had the advantage over Matt in every encounter (including the ones where she kept knocking him in the the head with a sai by surprise). Batman defeated Nightwing in the past during his Robin/early Nightwing days when he still wasn't that far removed from being The Boy Wonder. The mid twenties Grayson now beats perfect clones of Batman with all of the original's memories and skills, Batman himself, defeats villains (KGBeast, an enhanced Joker) whom Wayne didn't defeat, and enhanced individuals like Midnighter. I submit that you cannot fairly use Grayson's showings from 15-20 years ago, and claim they more represent the prowess of Grayson today. So many people seem determined to freeze Grayson and his abilities to when he was 15-18 years old (which were still awesome, in any event) But:

Richard Grayson has improved; he is not the "Boy Wonder" any longer, and hasn't been for a long time.

Category 13 Fight

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Stalemate with Shang Chi.

Nightwing stalemated Cassie Cain, easily Shang Chi's equal (if not superior)

MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):

I accept Cass as Shang Chi's equal. But it's not clear to me that that's really a draw, at least from what's in there. I mean this in the sense that I don't know what happens next; this just seems like the start.In my view, a battle where two opponents exchange blows and end up in mutual holds, defiantly staring each other down is a textbook draw

Category 14 Fight

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra beat Taskmaster.

Nightwing stalemated Slade Wilson when Grayson took over as Batman for a time

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/3169394-nightwing+vs+death+stroke+r2+2.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/58496/1630149-13.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111123459/3169397-nightwing+vs+death+stroke+r2+5.jpg

http://68.media.tumblr.com/e4cb01615bafbe67bc7c7b554dd9c6f2/tumblr_inline_o5c3y2l0LN1rjgtnd_540.jpg

---as the scans shows, Grayson-as-Batman even got the last blow in, and prompted Slade to force Grayson to save those guards to give 'Stroke the opportunity to escape

MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):

Stalemating Deathstroke is good. But Deathstroke has also beaten him fairly in previous fights. As with your comments regarding Grayson's showings against Batman earlier, I must remind you that when facing the META HUMANLY strong and fast Deathstroke-after initially being batted around rather easily in his teen Robin/initial Nightwing years (no shame there, Robin/early Nightwing was a kid and the mercenary was a meta human) the mid twenties Nighwing now always gives Slade all he can handle---and more. All the time. I chronicled many of their long, full on, drag out battles in post 30 of this thread, please check the "spoiler" section of The "Deathstroke" portion again) so this particular stalemate you mention in your post is not some kind of one off fluke, or something.

While Elektra clearly defeated Taskmaster, and in her previous loss to him, it was only due to him confusing her briefly while acting like Daredevil. (It is interesting that Dick uses the "switch up his fighting style twice, both here and in the Midnighter example, similar to what Taskmaster does here. However, since Elektra is not familiar with Dick's style, and Dick is not familiar with Mat's style, it has no effect on this fight.) This much is correct

Elektra has the advantage in this comparison.

I have to disagree. Taskmaster's incredible photographic reflexes ability makes him exceptionally combat skilled-but he does not truly have meta human speed, strength, etc. His being able to instantly combine the styles, moves, and combat prowess of so many people simultaneously makes him formidable indeed, and simulates meta human ability---but as Slade is combat skilled as well and is an actual meta human, Nightwing stalemating him in protracted battles equals Elektra beating an exceptionally skilled, but human adversary in my view. I therefore honestly don't think-overall-there is any advantage for Elektra here.

Comparison 15 Precision, marksmanship, skills

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Precision/Marksmanship, Incredible skills (Elektra cuts ribbon without touching forehead)

"Precision/Marksmanship, Incredible skills" that is matched by Nightwing, as he casually snaps Arsenal/Red Arrow's weapon with freakin' nunchuks

---and can hit somethting as small as an "on" switch with a wing ding while in the middle of dodging machine gun fire

MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):

Both good feats by Nightwing but I'd argue not quite at the level as Elektra's, which takes even more control. I've already addressed accuracy above, but I'll leave one more example: Elektra cuts a guy's limbs and head off, but in such a way that they stick together, and he stays alive, until he is nudged. This is an absurd level of skill.

I agree that Elektra's ribbons cutting feat is little better than Grayson's nunchuks feat---but in the context of what he can do as a whole, I don't see it being sooooo much better that it indicates he can't get a blow in on her, or defend himself from her. And I really disagree that Elektra's feats require more control than Nightwing's "Hit The Off Switch/Dodge Machine Gun Fire" feat. Think about it: how difficult is it to hit a tiny button from a long distance, period---then adding the horrendous pressure of having to dodge multiple assailants firing multiple bullets at you while you're doing it?

Nah, man. Nightwing's "Switch/Machine Gun" feat absolutely requires the same amount of control as what Elektra accomplished.

As for the additional feat you have displayed (the limbs/head cutting one) I will add a few I think-in a non lethal way-is as impressive. First, this (pay attention to the sequences all the way to the last panel) http://i.imgur.com/LqJxleh.jpg or his slicing the strap off a satchel being carried by a moving target (the super villain Marionette) from a distance with a wing ding https://imgur.com/t6FI5Wxand the sure shot precision Nightwing uses with a single escrima stick to break up a brawl between members of The Outsiders and Supergirl http://i.imgur.com/Gf26qnw.jpg

Also, consider her disassembling a gun by a single touch here. If Nightwing tries to pull out any complex gear, she can just negate it with a touch. That's a possibility. But considering Grayson (during this example in the Batman I.D) has the speed to do this https://i.imgur.com/Vxq57Bf.jpg then https://i.imgur.com/o63SG9k.jpg and has gear that includes sophisticated explosives, stun grenades, and EMPs---do you really think Elektra is fast enough to-for sure-disassemble his gear faster than he can stop her and take apart equipment that is far more complex than a gun?

Conclusion: I'm open to more data to be convinced, but at this point, from the evidence above, I see no meaningful advantage

Comparison 16 Reaction time/speed

YOUR EXAMPLES:

Elektra disarms Punisher with incredible speed.

Nightwing reacted faster than Batman when they were ambushed, and in fact saved him from being blasted by machine guns

MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):

In the scene with Batman, it looks to me that Nightwing jumps to push Batman out of the way when Batman's back is turned to the shooter. So I don't see this as proof that Nightwing has better reaction time than Batman; we don't know if Batman even knew about the danger. A good reaction to danger on Dick's part, sure. But not the same as taking a gun out of a guy's hands from several feet away without him seeing you move.

I have to disagree because (A) in reading the story, there is no indication that the shooters were hidden from Batman-one of the most aware heroes ever-enough for him to not have seen 'em; Nightwing (who on more than occasion has been referred to as legitimately faster than Wayne) just reacted quicker; (B) even if that was the case, moving fast enough to save one's self, much less one's self and another person from machine gun fire is equally as impressive as disarming someone of a single gun, and (C) if you are still not convinced, not only has Grayson disarmed someone of their gun in a similar fashion to Elektra as displayed in scans above, but he did it again while in the Batman persona, this time from a distance, against someone as skilled as The Punisher: Karl Tresser, A.K.A Nemesis http://i.imgur.com/F4HffXE.jpg

Further, here is Wolverine, who has enhanced speed, commenting, "Man, she's fast." Here Wolverine Describes as "fantastically quick, and inherently dishonest, feinting and faking."

This is more of Nightwing's battle with Slade, who also has enhanced speed where Nightwing is running rings around the mercenary as if he was standing still http://i.imgur.com/1r6e70d.jp

Or, here she steals Northstar's body from under the noses of Iceman, Polaris, and Dani Moonstar so fast they barely even register it ("What the hell was that?"): one, two, three

Absolutely impressive-but more impressive than Grayson defeating speedster Captain Boomerang Jr. http://i.imgur.com/SFS9o68.jpg-I think it's safe to say he is far faster than Elektra, and therefore the skill required to defeat him is at least on par with what the she ninja displayed before Iceman, Polaris, and Dani Moonstar

Here she Catches an arrow at 12.Grayson at that age was using a batarang to disarm freakin' Wonder Woman of her swordhttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tXpt2nJcdO0/VaI65HRzfII/AAAAAAANGOI/y6pDukXUMdA/s1600/p_104_09.jpg!!!

Here she says she can catch a bird in flight as a child.

C'mon, man---dude, Grayson was in the field at age nine, defeating the monstrous BlockBuster to Batman's incredulous shock http://www.funnyjunk.com/Robin+year+one+part+2+electric+bogaloo/funny-pictures/5861736#9d27d0_5861292 after you click to the scan, scroll up a bit to get the full effect of the battle

Here she Catches Punisher's thrown knife, says she can do this all day. Here, Nightwing dodges point blank shots from assassin Lady Vic-I submit dodging bullets is tougher than catching a knife thrown by a human; but for a more direct comparison of blocking a projectile thrown by a skilled combatant https://imgur.com/a/3EXDS

I could go on with her speed for a long time. As could I with his.

I think you would have to admit---I've more than matched her reaction and speed feats

To all the above, I will now add:

Category 17: Extensive top-tier fight

Elektra ties with Iron Fist, arguably having the advantage over him (and hitting him more) until he wins via chi-blast. I've shown multiple feats of Grayson tying the meta human Slade, and defeating meta humans Ravager and Midnighter which easily matches that----also, for a little extra somethin somethin' regarding Nigtwing's skill---here, after the villain Mother takes out three other Robins-Tim, Jason, and Batman's son the current Robin simultaneously, Grayson takes her on alone, one on one----and wins https://imgur.com/a/knsyg ! Nightwing defeated an opponent that defeated three Batman and/or League Of Assassins trained individuals at the same time, so this, combined with Grayson's showings against the others I mentioned proves Elektra has nothing on him regarding top tier fights---

---so no advantage, I'm sure you would agree..

Category 18: Striking power

Elektra's striking power is absurd. First, I saw something above about Nightwing ripping off a robot's arm. Here she Rips a super-strong robot’s arm off, just so we know they're equal in that.

But more importantly, she can strike with ridiculous force. I will in particular emphasize that she stabs the Hulk in the eyes, breaks Hulkbuster armor open with her hands, and on multiple occasions punches through body armor, as she could with Nightwing's bulletproof costume.

Elektra stabs Hulk in the eyes, clearly piercing his eyes with her sai.Nightwing was actually able to hurt the enormous Acheron the demon creature https://imgur.com/a/png2T

Breaks Hulkbuster armor with her handsNightwing is no slouch in taking out opponents in armor-here, he is taking out the last one of severalhttp://i.imgur.com/WqJEikS.jpg

Deforms thick steel door, curving it inwardNightwing hit Stallion hard enough to knock him through a thick steel door that was wedged shut with an escrima stick to boot http://i.imgur.com/4iSPAIy.jpg

While being tasered, she is still strong enough to punch through a guy’s body armor—not just his body—and was reaching for his heart. See the description next to "Hulkbuster armor" above

Throws a sai into a gun barrel, the force of which then pushes the guy's hand and gun through his body armor and chest!I would wager the meta human blockbuster is lots more durable than the man in the above scans, and Nightwing is hitting this massive, superbly durable villain with enough force to knock him through walls, doors, down flights of stairs, and bleed him with his blows https://imgur.com/a/Lc8Q9#0

Knocks two multi-ton rock monsters off a ledge with one kick. Nightwing smashes through a solid, block of ice with one hand placed on him by the villain Coldsnap http://i.imgur.com/9YS24CO.jpg Also, check out what he does when facing a rock monster of his own in scans coming right up

Punches through a guy and the wall behind him (possibly my favorite of the various times she has punched through people)

Nightwing punches the meta human Barry Pierce through a brick wall and KO's him http://i.imgur.com/0dunOuh.jpg

Punches through guy and pulls out his heart. If Grayson was effortlessly one shot chopping through multiple cinder blocks placed upon each other as a child (while the stern taskmaster Batman stood over him telling him to "do it better") http://i.imgur.com/Y9ZAF6F.jpg---as a full grown man he could effortlessly do the same to a frail human body if he were a killer like Elektra; Grayson normally doesn't kill people-he just beats up those who do

Casually embeds a sword into brickNightwing throws his escrima stick hard enough to go through a brick/rock monster http://i.imgur.com/HTPEYdq.jpg

Rams a blunt pipe all the way through PaladinNightwing kicks through the top of an elevator with one strikehttp://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpQb3dlci1TdHJlbmd0aC9iYXRtYW41MTAtd2luZ2VsZXZhdG9yLmpwZw==/?ref=

Punches through Arcade's escape sphereNightwing smashes through another deranged gamesman, The Prankster's lair/trap https://imgur.com/a/y3ara

Slices through a grenadeNightwing has the strength and striking power to break through a bus window while underwater to rescue a trapped victimhttp://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpQb3dlci1TdHJlbmd0aC9udzE5LWJ1c3dpbmRvdzIuanBn/?ref=

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpQb3dlci1TdHJlbmd0aC9udzE5LWJ1c3dpbmRvdzMuanBn/?ref=

She crushes a guy’s skull, or at least his jaw.See the earlier "Grayson was one shot chopping multiple bricks stacked upon another as a child" comments

She crushes a skull, likening it to an eggshell, and also crushes a throat A "Had It Up To Here" Nightwing, when facing the neo meta human, highly combat skilled, impervious to pain Raptor, cruelly breaks both this opponents arms and legs, leaving Raptor laying and strewn on the floor in a pathetic heaphttps://imgur.com/a/sYMjl; a Grayson that can easily break multiple human limbs can do the same to a human skull and/or throat if Grayson was a killer like Elektra, I'm sure you would agree.

She pulls out a guy’s heart. Once again, see "Grayson was one shot chopping cinder blocks stacked one upon the other as a child, as an adult could do the same to people if he was a killer" feature above

Cuts the head and hand off Perry, a nearly indestructible cyborg.

Grayson, while in The Batman persona, kicked through titanium alloy legs with one shots http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpQb3dlci1TdHJlbmd0aC9kZXRlY3RpdmU4NzctdGl0YW5pdW1sZWdzMS5qcGc=/?ref=

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpQb3dlci1TdHJlbmd0aC9kZXRlY3RpdmU4NzctdGl0YW5pdW1sZWdzMi5qcGc=/?ref=

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpQb3dlci1TdHJlbmd0aC9kZXRlY3RpdmU4NzctdGl0YW5pdW1sZWdzMy5qcGc=/?ref=

Worms her hand up through the inside of Perry's nearly indestructible head to destroy his brain. Remember, Nightwing took out Cobb by putting his baton through his brain, ending the Talon's whole "healing factor/regeneration" thing

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/96/f1/0c/96f10cf01ae5eb061cd62b9396aad403.jpg

Knocks out Morbius with double hits to the sides of his head with her sai handles. This era of Morbius has a significant healing factor, for instance being stabbed solidly through the torso by Stone, then being fine a few hours later. Besides Nighwing taking out multiple Talons-who are all meta humans with "significant healing factors"-Nightwing has dealt with other meta humans such as Man-Bat, and KOing the Hybrid's Pteradon http://i.imgur.com/mrrIvSp.jpg

Category 20: Random powered bad guys.

Here she basically one-shots enhanced versions of Jack O'lantern, Whiplash, and Tiger Shark, who normally fight Spider-man, Iron Man, and Namor. This is right after being stabbed through the torso.

Here she beats a whole rogue's gallery of villains off panel.

The above feats you reference are truly impressive---but is easily matched-if not surpassed-by Nightwing soloing several super powered bad guys including Snakepit (powerful enough to go up against Superman) Mangog (a team busting severe thorn in Superman's side as well) and Kid Amazo (an individual who siphons superpowers in a similar fashion to the android Amazo itself) https://imgur.com/a/pBdGK

Here she is described as having killed "24 capes in 24 hours."

The above feat is easily matched-if not surpassed-by Nightwing, save for a single instance of help on his behalf-defeating the android version of Paragon, who is a one man JLA (and during the fight uses the powers of, among others, Aquaman, Flash, Green Lantern, and Superman!!) https://imgur.com/a/CJlCn

You must admit this, my man-in this category, once again: NIghtwing got this.

Category 21: Gear and more

You've said Nightwing's gear is way better. Perhaps better than just her sai, but Elektra often carries firearms and explosives, has a garrotein her sash, and also uses poison. That sounds like things Elektra often uses, but is not standard; Grayson's standard equipment alone includes matches for those-firearms wrist gauntlets emit non lethal projectiles explosives Grayson carries multiple, exotic explosive devises garrote wrist gauntlets shoot out bolos poison various gassesPlus, she has often proved herself to be lethal using random objects even while fighting against opponents who have superior weapons, as for instance she did when she killed several well-armed Hand with shards of ice, Nightwing has defeated armed opponents using pool balls http://i.imgur.com/pwyu2y6.jpgwell-armed agents of SHIELD with broken glass,For a change, Grayson took out opponents with guns-not by shooting from them, but actually throwing the guns themselves to KO his foeshttp://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpNYXJrc21lbnNoaXAvbnd0YXJnZXQtZ3VuZGluZ3MxLmpwZw==/?ref=

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpNYXJrc21lbnNoaXAvbnd0YXJnZXQtZ3VuZGluZ3MyLmpwZw==/?ref=

several assassins with energy weapons using bamboo sticks, Here, Grayson decimates armed opponents with crutches http://i.imgur.com/QTbT9PB.jpg and disabled the well-armed Paladin with her own spit toothGrifter, an individual at least equal to Paladin in skill, plus has TP as an edge that allows him to mentally track his opponents, is "disabled" by Grayson throwing his escrima baton at and around Grifter in so confounding a manner that Grayson is able to get the upper hand on him https://imgur.com/a/MBPYTOr here she beats an armed guy using a thrown ashtray.

Here, Nightwing using grocery store items to defeat several armed opponents

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpBZ2lsaXR5LVNwZWVkL253OS1ncm9jZXJ5MS5qcGc=/?ref=

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpBZ2lsaXR5LVNwZWVkL253OS1ncm9jZXJ5Mi5qcGc=/?ref=

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpBZ2lsaXR5LVNwZWVkL253OS1ncm9jZXJ5My5qcGc=/?ref=

So in terms of both the gear she often carries beyond her sai, and her ability to use random objects as deadly weapons, then I'd say she is not so far below when it comes to gear. Judging by what I have just displayed, I would say that while she is versatile in using improvised weapons to her advantage, Grayson at least matches her in that department; and though she constantly-but not always-carries a diverse array of gear-Nightwings's standard arsenal of goodies (suit taser, electrorangs, gas pellets, tranquilizer darts, wing dings, electrified, virtually unbreakable escrima batons, EMPs, and much much more-whew!) easily matches, and far surpasses the amount of gear she carries, even at her most plentiful

Overall, I see Elektra having superior skill (cutting a guy apart but leaving him alive until touched (Nightwing's "Break Up The Supergirl/Outsiders Fight With His Ricocheting Baton That Returned To His Hand Like A Boomerang" roughly matches that in a non fatal way, in my view), speed (still the Punisher gun scene I matched that with two examples of Nightwing disarming a person of their gun before they could move, including Punisher's equal Nemesis)), stealth (running on snow with no marks,Nightwing's boots kinda matches that running along a blade in flight Very cool looking, but more a parlor trick in my view, that doesn't denote balance sooooo much better than Nightwing that is useful in a fight), durability (stabbed through torso with no problem As shown above, Nightwing has been viciously stabbed in more than one situation, many times, kept fighting and won), and striking power (piercing Hulk's eyes, breaking Hulkbuster armor, punching through body armor In this particular instance, Elektra's Hulk injuring and armor smashing feats seem noticeably superior-but her exposed body is just as susceptible to Grayson's own impressive striking power if he manages to beat her to the punch), defeating fodder (100s of Hand Nightwing matched that by defeating an army of League Of Assassins Ninjas and before that an army of massive alien Gordanian slavers and massive, combat skilled Branx Warriors simultaneously---when he was still a teenager) and a draw in agility No "draw"-Nightwing is the DC Comics acknowledged top acrobat and most agile human in their universe https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111219076/4972956-1nightwing.jpgable to do things in this area that no one else can, like the quadruple somersault jump http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/dhunter22/media/cGF0aDovQUxQRDQuanBn/?ref= (as the scan shows, Grayson was doing things like that even before he became Robin) Their fights are both very good; I tend to want to avoid getting too deep into the hole of exactly which fights are better and which ones have more context to the win but the very least I'll say that Elektra's are certainly not worse. Agreed--but, looking at their feats overall, I can categorically state that she's no better, either.

I know you made further additions to some of the above points already, but I am trying to keep this already massive post somewhat less rambling so I will stick to this. If there are points you made in other posts that you'd like me to address I'd be happy to. Sorry for so putting so many damn scans in here but the point is to be clear that she has extensive, consistent, and superior feats in each of these categories. I will say in general that I had forgotten all about when Nightwing took over as Batman, he was pretty good then! But, I still see Elektra winning a decent majority over him. I'm not putting him down by any means, I just see Elektra as being on a higher level of accomplishment. After carefully, and fully reviewing the expansion of Nightwing's feats I have displayed before you, I would be honestly surprised if you continued to hold that view.

Elektra is absolutely, unequivocably, irrefutably bad, Bad, BAD. But in every category, I believe I have shown matching-and in many cases, superior-feats to hers that Nightwing has accomplished.

Therefore, I would still have to say the tie breaker is his gear.

Translation-

For the majority:

Nightwing wins.

Avatar image for owie
#50 Posted by Owie (7172 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonewhoknows: Right on, I'll get to this within the next few days and see what I can do to put that Kraken back in its cave!