The team win. Pre-new 52 Jason isn't as good as current Jason, but he'd still be able to give Electra a good fight and I honestly think Nightwing could beat her. Together, they win a strong majority.
Elektra loses 5/10. she's far better than either one on one.
The above statement would seem to be incorrect, since Grayson by himself can beat Elektra
(Due to the "Rebirth" storylines combining much of the Post Crisis and N52 histories and feats now, some N52 incidents are included; even if those few are removed, it is still enough to beat Elektra)
His resume:
Nightwing has-by category-defeated:
SKILLED: KGBeast (a man who stalemated Batman so thoroughly in the underground tunnels of Gotham in a long, protracted skirmish that Wayne was never able to KO him---he had to finally lock the 'Beast in a vault like room to "beat" him); R'as Al Ghul (a man who also has stalemated Batman in SEVERAL protracted battles---and Grayson did this directly after defeating at least a dozen League of Assassins ninjas); Shrike (who was skilled enough to capture Black Canary, and whom Nightwing had to defeat to rescue her); Cheshire (considered the second deadliest assassin in the DC universe); Talons (meta human, extremely skilled assassins with healing factors---in one case Nightwing achieved victory by impaling his escrema stick in the Talon's brain and disrupting the healing factor, showing he can be brutal AND deal with super human foes); The Immortal Warrior Matatoa (undefeated in several lifetimes until facing Grayson); Metal Eddie (a superhuman martial arts expert); Roy "Arsenal/Red Arrow" Harper (a man who can not only match Green Arrow in accuracy with arrows, but in who's hands ANYTHING is a weapon, AND who has Checkmate special ops training); Midnighter; Azrael; Red Hood; in Nightwing issue 113, Ravager (Deathstroke's meta human, highly combat skilled daughter---Grayson did this as she charged towards him with just one blow to her throat, and even Cassie Cain has not been able to defeat Ravager that quickly on the two occasions the highly skilled Cain and Ravager have thrown down); a perfect clone of Batman with his combat skills; and speaking of the Dark Knight, in Nightwing issue 30 volume 2, beat his mentor Batman in a long, bloody, brutal battle that left the Batcave in a complete and utter shambles.
SUPER STRONG: Both Blockbusters (the first one while still a CHILD in the mini series "Robin: Year One"); Man-Bat; Hardsell; Baron Blitzkreig; Killer Croc; A Slew of Gordanian Slavers and Branx Warriors SIMULTANEOUSLY (and Branx Warriors are combat skilled as well); an enhanced Joker (who, before facing Nightwing, was kicking Batman's a$$).
SUPER POWERED: Hal Jordan Green Lantern; Shock Trauma; Dr. Phosphorous; Electrocutioner: Captain Boomerang Jr. (who hurls lethal, gimmicked boomerangs and utilizes super speed); Dr. Light (who simultaneously took out Green Arrow and two teams of Titans).
SUPER POWERED AND SUPER STRONG: The Gargoyle (Grayson defeated the mystical Gargoyle, after he defeated and enthralled Grayson's SUPER POWERED Titans team mates, in the creature's own realm of Limbo); Cyborg; Clayface; Mr. Freeze
And Grayson has stalemated Cassie Cain on two occasions, and Deathstroke on multiple occasions, including when Grayson was in The Batman identity.
A feat for feat comparison between Nightwing and Elektra:
Elektra block machine-gun fire.
Nightwing did the same with glass while also dodging the shots fired at him at close range
Nightwing beat Ravager who is meta humanly faster and stronger than Bullseye; Grayson defeated her even faster than the super skilled Cassie Cain when she and Ravager fought in two extended battles https://imgur.com/a/XqEjN#0
Stalemate with Daredevil.
Nightwing defeated Batman, a better fighter, in an extended battle:
As can be seen in the links to the scans above, Nightwing got the last blow in, dropped Batman on his a$$, and got Wayne to-figuratively speaking-tap out. Trying to lowball this encounter into being a "workout", "sparring session", or any other such cop out excuse is futile; both King and Seeley, the creators of the story confirm it was an "all out fight" that Grayson won.
---as the scans shows, Grayson-as-Batman even got the last blow in, and prompted Slade to force Grayson to save those guards to give 'Stroke the opportunity to escape
Precision/Marksmanship, Incredible skills.
"Precision/Marksmanship, Incredible skills" that is matched by Nightwing, as he casually snaps Arsenal/Red Arrow's weapon with freakin' nunchuks
---and can hit somethting as small as an "on" switch with a wing ding while in the middle of dodging machine gun fire
Elektra disarms Punisher with incredible speed.
Nightwing reacted faster than Batman when they were ambushed, and in fact saved him from being blasted by machine guns
Due to combat skill, LONGER experience against a wider range of foes (and in the fight game PERIOD), and a CURBSTOMP in tech advantage (the batons ALONE match the sais) it's clear the former Robin alone can beat Elektra.
When the Red Hood joins him against the neo Ninja:
@TheOneWhoKnows: no one said team couldn't win and most of those night wing showings you listed are not on par with Elektra's .
Elektra have meta human abilities.
silent scream:she can use this to ragdoll foes with the voice coming out of her mouth as displayed in Elektra:Assassin .
body swapping, mind reading (any thing grayson pulls with be countered due to Elektra reading his mind), outright mental assault, mind control (she can literally control his mind) she can disarm either them before they know what's up due to hand magic similar to what she did to the punisher.
nightwing can match her skill, heck no since:(Elektra gained the upper hand against iron fist and broke his arm)he can match her in strength but Elektra is more vicious and have better striking power, she's ripped people hearts out with ease,slice through hulk buster armor with her hand, Elektra is faster than either, nightwing's tech will be cancelled out by elektra's metahuman abilities, mostly mind reading.
since redhood is here, surely team takes the majority but one on one, she's beating either of them .
Elektra have beaten superhumans too, tiger shark, jack o lantern, blizzard , the serpent society etc... , Elektra did it without any prep or tech unlike nightwing
no one said team couldn't win and most of those night wing showings you listed are not on par with Elektra's .
Yes they are.
Elektra have meta human abilities.
Nightwing has defeated meta humans---plenty of them, quite a few above her.
(silent scream:she can use this to ragdoll foes with the voice coming out of her mouth as displayed in Elektra:Assassin .
Perhaps---if Nightwing just stood still with his arms at his sides and just let her do that for some strange, unknown reason; she'd have to get the chance to do that, before Nightwing used his gear on her first. Doubtful, as he usually uses his gear in his fights before she resorts to that in her fights.
body swapping, mind reading (any thing grayson pulls with be countered due to Elektra reading his mind), outright mental assault, mind control (she can literally control his mind) she can disarm either them before they know what's up due to hand magic similar to what she did to the punisher.
Slade has advanced perception-I'd gather, far above Elektra-and Grayson has kept pace with him. Cassie has incredible precognition which usually lets her be "always a step-or two-ahead of her competition" and yet, as the scans show, Nightwing stalemated her (due to Grayson's leaping, flipping, even-he-doesn't-know-what-he's-going-to-do-next style, it is more difficult for her to body read him than more disciplined fighters like Slade and Batman) and Grayson has great will power; among other feats, he resisted the mind control of the antagonist Groom http://i.imgur.com/RGclfgk.jpg So, sorry---still no game changing advantage for Elektra
nightwing can match her skill, heck no since:(Elektra gained the upper hand against iron fist and broke his arm
Actually, heck yes, as Nightwing has defeated Batman and stalemated Cassie Cain twice, and those characters are two of the most skilled combatants in the DC universe
he can match her in strength but Elektra is more vicious
Nightwing has faced some of the most "vicious" individuals on the face of the Earth-Cheshire, Deathstroke, Brother Blood, The Joker (once, after some ehanements he had at the time allowed him to whip Batman's a$$), Blockbuster, R'as Al Ghul, etc.-since he was a child. Elektra's level of "viciousness" is absolutely nothing Grayson hasn't seen before, and triumphed over
and have better striking power, she's ripped people hearts out with ease (since Grayson has been showing the ability to do things like that from way back-chopped through multiple cinder blocks as a child-while the stern taskmaster Batman stood over him, telling him to "do it better"-it's clear Grayson could do that if he was a killer like Elektra)(,slice through hulk buster armor with her hand (A-Grayson has done something similar by kicking through an opponents titanium steel leg with one shot; B-also, even if he couldn't do stuff like that with his body, he could do the same with his gear-his lasers, wing dings, etc.-but he doesn't do that sort of thing---he just beats up people who do)Elektra is faster than either (no, she definitely is not), nightwing's tech will be cancelled out by elektra's metahuman abilities, mostly mind reading(many opponents at, and above Elektra's meta human capabilities were not able to "cancel out" Nightwing's tech; just your say so that she can overcome it when they couldn't is simply not legitimate proof of anything.
since redhood is here, surely team takes the majority but one on one, she's beating either of them .
Evidence indicates that your claim is incorrect
Elektra have beaten superhumans too, tiger shark, jack o lantern, blizzard , the serpent society etc... ,
If they both have beaten super humans, then her doing it gives her no game changing advantage. But his gear does-since they have similar stats, it is the edge-the advantage-the tie breaker that gives him the win
Elektra did it without any prep or tech unlike nightwing
(A) Not every metahuman Nightwing defeated, did he have prep, or use tech ( and (B) Even if he had, it wouldn't matter; a win is a win, as long as the tech is not prohibited in a battle, it doesn't matter if Nightwing uses tech or prep to win---and since he has stalemated or defeated opponents in Elektra's tier with sheer H2H, he doesn't need either. Tech or prep just ensures his victory.
@TheOneWhoKnows: Elektra have done better against the best in marvel, wolverine, ironfist, shang chi. elektra stalemating iron fist is far better than anything night wing has ever done skill wise.
@dami24434said: Elektra have done better against the best in marvel, wolverine, ironfist, shang chi. elektra stalemating iron fist is far better than anything night wing has ever done skill wise. WRONG
Midnighter-(Wolverine Equivalent)
Midnighter's abilities were designed by Bendix to give him an all encompassing advantage in close-combat and tactical scenarios. He has superhuman strength, reflexes (and moving speed when necessary), healing, senses, aim and various other enhancements. He is said to have multiple redundant systems to keep him fighting in the worst of conditions. One example of this is a backup heart. Midnighter can also turn his pain receptors on and off so he can keep fighting when the pain would stop a normal man. The pain is not totally cut off though, so his healing factor is also very helpful. He's fought with, and healed from, a broken neck, broken limbs, holes through his chest, having his whole body set on fire, contracting various viruses (including AIDS), and other things. He can also function perfectly in anaerobic environments when necessary.
Here is Grayson taking care of business going one on one with this man:
Batman has been said to be trained in every martial art known to man, and out of every single one of those forms of fighting, he knows 127 that are deadly. These 127 are the main forms of fighting that make up his normal fighting style. He is known to change his styles in order to become unpredictable to his opponents. His primary style of combat though is a mixture of Judo, Ninjitsu, Muay Thai, Tae Kwon Do, Jujitsu, Boxing, Karate and Dragon Style Kung Fu.
Batman's combat skill surpasses most metahumans and normal men, and he even knows every pressure point and nerve strike in the human body, as well as Dim Mak ("death touch") techniques. These can cause dangerous pain to his enemies which can lead to dizziness, numbness, unconsciousness, temporary paralysis, disorientation, and even death.
Due to his intense training and diet Batman has accomplished feats that normal human beings might call superhuman. Batman is in peak physical and mental condition. Batman has displayed surprising strength, and is able to bench press weight of at least 1000 pounds, and has personally stated that his maximum leg press weight is 2500 lbs (over 1.133 Kg). However, as shown in Batman Odyssey # 2, Batman was able to overcome his personal record leg press, moving, with the strength of the legs, a stuck railroad car. In Gotham After Midnight # 2, Batman was able to hold up two golden sarcophagi with the approximate weight of at least 1 ton, for at least one minute. In addition, Batman is an accomplished gymnast and acrobat, though not quite at the level of Nightwing.
Here is how Grayson fared against his mentor, one of the DC universe's greatest combatants in an extended battle:
As can be seen in the links to the scans above, Nightwing got the last blow in, dropped Batman on his a$$, and got Wayne to-figuratively speaking-tap out. Trying to lowball this encounter into being a "workout", "sparring session", or any other such cop out excuse is futile; both King and Seeley, the creators of the story confirm it was an "all out fight" that Grayson won.
Nightwing even acquitted himself nicely by, despite having well deserved trepidation, going against Wayne in his "Super Bat"phase:
There are an unspecified number of Talons in the employ of the Court of Owls, and as such their physical and mental abilities almost certainly differ from Talon to Talon.
William Cobb, the Talon who attacked Bruce Wayne in Old Wayne Tower and the Court's labyrinth, possessed a degree of enhanced speed (he was capable of moving out of an elevator and leaving two dead guards in his wake by the time it took Bruce and Lincoln March to turn their heads) and a degree of superhuman strength (he was unfazed by Bruce applying ten times the force it would take to collapse a normal man's windpipe).
In his first appearance, Cobb was shown to be able to heal and resurrect himself from a massive fall off Old Wayne Tower. It was later revealed that this was the result of the Court infusing his system with an unspecified chemical compound that could reanimate dead tissue and heal living tissue over and over again (in other words, a healing factor). The compound is fueled by body heat, and so exposing a Talon to conditions that could cause body temperatures to drop would also compromise their healing abilities. The Court refers to the process of infusing a Talon with this compound as "drinking from the cup of immortality". It is implied that all Talons undergo this process, and so all of them should possess similar regenerative capabilities.
Talon #1-Grayson displays he has the striking power to casually snap the knee tendon of a super human foe
Unarmed Combat: Due to the harsh training she went through as a child, Cassandra is one of the greatest martial artists in the world and is a master assassin. Some of her feats include shattering brick and stone as well as a sword. She has used nerve strikes and pressure points. She has dodged bullets at point blank range and even disarmed a gunman before the bullet could hit her. She has invented her own styles and techniques. She can lift about twice her weight and carry 230 lbs while running.
Reading Body Language: She is skilled in being able to comprehend a person's body movements as if it were language or speech, and thus knows what actions a person will use before they actually do. Her ability to comprehend body language enables her to quickly learn new martial arts style, such as learning Escrima from a single sparring session with Oracle. After having her mind altered to think like a normal person, her ability to predict movements was lost. However, Lady Shiva retrained Cass to read body language.
Weapons-Master: She is also a master of different kinds of melee and ranged weaponry. Her time with Barbara Gordon and the Batman only enhanced her already considerable skills.
Nightwing stalemated Cassie Cain in Batman and the Outsiders issue 8 volume 2 before butler Alfred broke up the fight, and Batman and The Outsiders 14: "A Family Affair; here are scenes from the latter encounter:
Deathstroke The Terminator (Yet Another Wolverine Rough Equivalent)
Powers & Abilities
Super Strength / Speed / Endurance / Intellect
As a result of an experimental hormone therapy conducted by the US government, Slade became a super soldier. Unbeknown to Slade's superiors, the procedure boosted his brain capacity, increasing his coordination and stamina further than a human could process, becoming an enhanced human. His mind is like a computer built for strategy. Deathstroke's mental faculties are accelerated by a factor of 9, allowing him to think and perceive nine times faster, affording him a greatly superior reaction time.
Nightwing has been able to do this while fighting this senses, strength, speed, and endurance enhanced man using his superior H2H:
and this
And this, when Grayson took over as Batman for a time
---as the last example shows, Grayson-as-Batman even got the last blow in, and prompted Slade to force Grayson to save those guards to give 'Stroke the opportunity to escape. It is still the case that, due to his meta human attributes 'Stroke will always hold the edge over human opponents like Grayson. But:
The days when Slade could just punk Nightwing are long gone.
Considering the above evidence, there is no way a reasonable person can claim that Elektra has done-or can do-anything Nightwing hasn't, or can do. Even many of her extra sensory feats can be matched with Richard's gear http://i.imgur.com/U9vTgK9.jpg ---and this latter aspect-gear- is the tie breaker between the two...
For such evenly matched opponents, this kind of fight is usually resolved by a single, prominent advantage. Since Nighwing's electrical batons alone match her sais---the arsenal that curbstomps the ninja's gear-if it comes to that-will eventually, most likely, give Grayson the win.
Yes, it's true, while it is possible she could win---due to combat skill, LONGER experience against a wider range of foes (and in the fight game PERIOD), and a CURBSTOMP in tech advantage (the batons ALONE match the sais) it's more likely that:
@TheOneWhoknows: cassandra cain is not on ironfist level though. ironfist is better than everyone night wing has fought skill wise.
ironfist recently defeated the one:the first ironfist while suffering from being shot by 6 arrows in the chest.
two trucks :possibly 80 tons of weight being dropped on him didn't even faze ironfist.
Ironfist took on a mind controlled shang chi and armies of other skilled phantoms with the knowledge of all the martial art in the world and he won.
elektra took on the same ironfist and held her own even going as far as breaking his arm.
talon is not on wolverine level:please this is not debatable, wolverine is the same guy that stomped frost giants , survive a nuke, wolverine has owned captain America in most of there fight, wolverine >>> talon, wolverine>>> pre 52 deathstroke too who nightwing matched.
dude:looks like you're standing with nightwing winning and I'm against it, looks like either one of us is not giving in anytime soon. let me tag someone with greater knowledge of Elektra's feats @owie: . (ignore the op , we here debating nightwing vs Elektra here. ) who wins in your opinion?
ironfist recently defeated the one:the first ironfist while suffering from being shot by 6 arrows in the chest.
The One was not the first Iron Fist. That title belongs to Quan Yaozu. However, he did fight Quan for hours, with Quan only winning "barely". Then Quan went on to defeat Shou-Lao and become the first Iron Fist. This is all clearly lined out in Iron Fist 2017 issue 5
cassandra cain is not on ironfist level thoughYes, she is. ironfist is better than everyone night wing has fought skill wise. That's highly debatable
ironfist recently defeated the one:the first ironfist while suffering from being shot by 6 arrows in the chest.
Cassie was shot with four bullets in a fight and kept going (bullets are worse than arrows); in fact, getting shot and being able to continue to fight was part of her training
two trucks :possibly 80 tons of weight being dropped on him didn't even faze ironfist.
Cassie has plowed through a concrete wall in two almost casual hits, one shot smashed a three inch thick window made of quartz, fell multiple stories to the ground and survived with no injury
Ironfist took on a mind controlled shang chi and armies of other skilled phantoms with the knowledge of all the martial art in the world and he won.
Cassie has knocked out a mob of 50 in seconds before Tim Drake Robin could even react; one shot Lady Shiva while Cass had a broken arm at the time which she panfully reset in place afterwards-the proud Shiva vowed to slay Cass for this affront; dodged Supergirl's heat vision and Kara's attempt at blitzing her (to be fair, Supergirl wasn't in top shape at the time, but even a somewhat off her game Supergirl is still Supergirl; and battled the metahuman Deathstroke so thoroughly he had to set off a huge explosive to get her off him so he could get away
elektra took on the same ironfist and held her own even going as far as breaking his arm.
As you can see in the above scans, Nightwing took on that same Cassie and stalemated her (in non battle situations, he has shown to be faster than her while grappling, and racing to a destination-not just in a straight line-indicating Grayson is at least on par with her in combat and/or reaction speed, not just travel speed)-which, in addition to his unpredictable style is probably why he has managed to do as well against her
talon is not on wolverine level:please this is not debatable, Yes it is, but even if you took the Talons away, Midnighter and Slade are absolutely on Logan's level wolverine is the same guy that stomped frost giants , survive a nuke, wolverine has owned captain AmericaSlade has owned Captain America's rough equivalent Batman, as well as soloing a JLA team that included Wally West Flash and Kyle Rayner Green Lantern in most of there fight, wolverine >>> talon, wolverine>>> pre 52 deathstroke too who nightwing matched. That's your opinion; considering 'Strokes' feats, your opinion is highly debatable
dude:looks like you're standing with nightwing winning and I'm against it, looks like either one of us is not giving in anytime soon. Indeed, because every "advantage" you've listed for Elektra, I've matched with no problem let me tag someone with greater knowledge of Elektra's feats @owie: . (ignore the op , we here debating nightwing vs Elektra here. ) who wins in your opinion?
Yeah, speaking of which, Owie my friend, I have to get back to you on that thread regarding Elektra and Lady Shiva...
@TheOneWhoKnows: please tell me you're not trying to compare cassandra cain's durability and striking power to iron fist.
and please show me cassie punching through people, like electra has done multiple times, or crushing skulls with one hand, or piercing someone like red she hulk with normal weapons like her sais, or karate chopping something as durable as hulk buster armor (shield version).
elektra hits harder than cassandra and unlike cassandra she won't hold back.
please tell me you're not trying to compare cassandra cain's durability and striking power to iron fist.
I am comparing her skill as equal, her speed (because of her feats, like moving so fast on one occasion Batman didn't get a single blow on her, or dodging multiple bullets after they were fired) as possibly superior, her durability (since she can take multiple bullets and keep fighting, and take several story drops without harm) as legitimately comparable, and her striking power to Rand when he doesn't use the Chi amped punches
and please show me cassie punching through people, like electra has done multiple times,
Excuse me? You don't think a woman who has punched through the things I detailed to you "can't" do the same to a human if she wanted to??? So regular humans are tougher than concrete and several inch thick quartz????
or crushing skulls with one hand, once again-do you think a human skull is tougher than concrete that Cass has smashed? Not to mention, if she can effortlessly destroy a metal sword with one stroke http://i.imgur.com/anOI8vL.jpg I think it's a safe bet she can do the same to a human skull (unless you think a skull is harder than steel, too) or piercing someone like red she hulk with normal weapons like her sais, or karate chopping something as durable as hulk buster armor (shield version) Judging by observing her feats over the years-yes and yes.
elektra hits harder than cassandra (not when she strikes to kill like Elektra doesand unlike cassandra she won't hold back Doesn't matter; Cass has stood up to and chased off a non holding back meta human Deathstroke, defeated a non holding back David Cain (one of the most lethal, ruthless assassins and martial artists in the DC universe) defeated the meta human, non holding back Ravager twice, and defeated a non holding back Lady Shiva. So why you think Elektra's propensity to not "hold back" is "more special" than all of those characters I've just listed is soooo much"more special", that Elektra would accomplish what none of them could is unknown.
let's end this, team wins, I agree.
Cool, that outcome is definitely something we can agree on.
@theonewhoknows: I'll get back to you on this. I respect what you did with the matching feats there. Don't totally agree with each one, and I am not as knowledgeable about Nightwing on the finer details, so it is helpful to have just had the BOTW with Deadpool vs Nightwing so I can discuss his fights with multiple perspectives. But anyway I'll reply in the next day or two.
@theonewhoknows:I'm going to respond primarily to the scan-for-scan comparison structure you set up in post 18. This won't address every point that has been made outside of that, either by you or other debaters. But it should hopefully make for a somewhat direct comparison. As I said above, I like what you did with this scan-for-scan comparison, and I think it was intended to be fair. However, I would use different examples for some of the categories, and would add several categories of my own. In these added categories, I'll just be adding Elektra feats, with the invitation that you add whatever Nightwing feats you think are best for those categories so that they can be compared.
I'm also going to make all the scans I use, both mine and yours, links instead of in-line images to keep this from getting too cluttered. I'm pretty sure many people just skip over the images when they're links, but I think it will help the clarity quite a bit as I re-present your examples and then add my own.
Category 1 (blocking gunfire), with links to your scans
I truly can't tell what's going on in the Nightwing example. Are you saying he's throwing glass at the bullets? What I see here, and maybe if it was larger or if I saw more of the context I could better understand, is him throwing some of those metal wing-things and dodging some bullets. I don't really see the glass, or if that's it in the upper right corner I can't tell what's going on.
In any case, at least based on this evidence as I understand it, Elektra has massively higher speed and accuracy in the sense of being able to get her hands/weapons in the right place at the exact right time to stop numerous bullets.
Category 2 Blitzing fodder
YOUR EXAMPLES:
Blitzes soldiers while sprinting.
MY COMMENTS:
I think we can safely assume both characters can blitz small groups of soldiers and such.
But if we want to discuss meaningful-level battles against fodder:
Elektra routs an entire militia army. You can see the size in the first scan. Over the night, she kills numerous ones of them without every being caught or seen directly, and in the end causing enough fear in the rest of them for them all to leave.
I think we can also safely assume both characters are highly agile and can dodge bullets. Nightwing's example is a very good one. Nightwing's reputation as being one of the most agile in DC is well-earned. But Elektra is also highly agile.
So, I would add these for Elektra, which are significantly better than the one you used, which was only a single shot:
I don't think the level of feats here is comparable. First, Elektra didn't deflect the bullet--she cut it in half.
Second, while it is true that a superhuman like Ravager can throw an object at high speeds, and so dodging it is a good feat, dodging it takes nowhere near the speed or body control it takes to intercept a bullet.
I wouldn't argue against his suit's bullet-proof quality. But he does note that they hurt, that his arm is numb, and he has a broken rib.
But, when we get to striking power way below, I will argue that Elektra has striking power enough to penetrate a bullet-proof suit in any case.
To be fair, her bullet-proof hand is a one-time thing, I would normally not use that in her favor. However, if we take this category to be durability and pain tolerance, I have a number of examples to show that she can take pretty much any punishment she's likely to get in this fight:
Here an enhanced Bullseye beats her down, to the degree that she can't move, her skull is broken, she has a brain hemorrhage, and is blind in one one, and eventually needs a steel plate in her head. This is the definition of beaten beyond the ability to fight. And then (full fight including getting hurt) she gets up out of pure willpower and beats the crap out of a bunch of Hand, their magical leader, and Bullseye.
And my favorite, When she finds out Lady Bullseye can become incorporeal, she lets her stab her in the abdomen with a giant longsword, moving her body so all the important organs are out of the way. She seems completely fine after this, and even goes on to easily defeat Jack O'Lantern, Tiger Shark, and Whiplash, and then kill the leaders of the Assassins Guild as if she is completely uninjured. I need to emphasize that no matter how you move your organs out of the way, being stabbed completely through your abdomen should be a lethal injury, the fact that not only did she survive this at all, but acted as if she was totally fine, is an amazing feat of durability, not to mention pain tolerance.
Nightwing casually fells a fleeing suspect from a long, long distance, to Tarrantula's shocked amazement http://i.imgur.com/cTV3Bs7.jpg
MY COMMENTS:
This "throw a sai into a gun" thing is actually a repeated feat for Elektra, as you'll see. Here are a number of other high level accuracy feats for her.
When it comes to Nightwing's, it's a nice feat but honestly it doesn't seem that far away, and the guy is a normal mugger I take it? I'm sure he must have some good accuracy feats--you show some others later-- but this one does not compare to hers.
I think most people would actually consider that fight against Wolverine (more extensive version of the fight) a draw since it didn't get to completion. But she did have the advantage over him at multiple points. However, she did beat him earlier in Redeemer, a graphic novel which mixed typed text and experimental art.
I would strongly argue that a Talon is not equivalent to Wolverine, which I think you agreed to above eventually as well. It is a good feat though.
Nightwing beat Ravager who is meta humanly faster and stronger than Bullseye; Grayson defeated her even faster than the super skilled Cassie Cain when she and Ravager fought in two extended battles https://imgur.com/a/XqEjN#0
MY COMMENTS:
Elektra has actually beaten Bullseye three times. He is obviously her constant enemy, and each fight has been exhaustive and detailed. The first time, after he had been training extensively to beat her using a hologram; the second time, after she had just gotten away from being tortured for months by Skrulls and HAMMER; and the third time when he was enhanced by Hand magic.
Nightwing beating Ravager is very solid, for sure. But honestly taking her out so quickly, with her just sitting there rubbing her throat, feels like it didn't really give Ravager her due.
Category 12 Fight
YOUR EXAMPLES:
Stalemate with Daredevil.
Nightwing defeated Batman, a better fighter, in an extended battle:
As can be seen in the links to the scans above, Nightwing got the last blow in, dropped Batman on his a$$, and got Wayne to-figuratively speaking-tap out. Trying to lowball this encounter into being a "workout", "sparring session", or any other such cop out excuse is futile; both King and Seeley, the creators of the story confirm it was an "all out fight" that Grayson won.
MY COMMENTS:
Elektra has extensively fought Daredevil a couple times: here they fight evenly until she wins via prep (your example); here she attacks him while bloodlusted and he mostly tries to stick to defending himself until eventually realizing he needs to fight back to survive (part one and part two); she hits him numerous more times than he does to her, and says he barely survived it here. He notes twice that her strikes almost killed him (the one "almost took his head off," the pulled kick that could have killed him). He also notes three times that there was a significant danger of losing or being killed (“has to stop this before she kills me,” he’s "got a chance” to win because she also sees something weird is going on, and “I almost died back there.”)
I don't consider Batman to be a better fighter than Daredevil in pure skill. I'd go with equal. Nightwing doing this well against Bruce is very good, and I do read it as a real fight. I don't read that last panel as a full admitting of defeat, but at least of not wanting to continue.
However, Batman has also beaten Dick in the past, so this seems to be one example where Nightwing tied/perhaps had a slight advantage, against a longer history of Batman being better. Whereas Elektra has tied/had the advantage over Matt in every encounter (including the ones where she kept knocking him in the the head with a sai by surprise).
I accept Cass as Shang Chi's equal. But it's not clear to me that that's really a draw, at least from what's in there. I mean this in the sense that I don't know what happens next; this just seems like the start.
---as the scans shows, Grayson-as-Batman even got the last blow in, and prompted Slade to force Grayson to save those guards to give 'Stroke the opportunity to escape
MY COMMENTS:
Stalemating Deathstroke is good. But Deathstroke has also beaten him fairly in previous fights.
While Elektra clearly defeated Taskmaster, and in her previous loss to him, it was only due to him confusing her briefly while acting like Daredevil. (It is interesting that Dick uses the "switch up his fighting style twice, both here and in the Midnighter example, similar to what Taskmaster does here. However, since Elektra is not familiar with Dick's style, and Dick is not familiar with Mat's style, it has no effect on this fight.)
In the scene with Batman, it looks to me that Nightwing jumps to push Batman out of the way when Batman's back is turned to the shooter. So I don't see this as proof that Nightwing has better reaction time than Batman; we don't know if Batman even knew about the danger. A good reaction to danger on Dick's part, sure. But not the same as taking a gun out of a guy's hands from several feet away without him seeing you move.
Or, here she steals Northstar's body from under the noses of Iceman, Polaris, and Dani Moonstar so fast they barely even register it ("What the hell was that?"): one, two, three
But more importantly, she can strike with ridiculous force. I will in particular emphasize that she stabs the Hulk in the eyes, breaks Hulkbuster armor open with her hands, and on multiple occasions punches through body armor, as she could with Nightwing's bulletproof costume.
This is something you addressed above the feat-for-feat comparison, and we don't need to get too much into it. But Elektra has beaten all sorts of powered villains, as well as other skilled opponents I won't get into like Cape Crow and Lady Bullseye.
Here she basically one-shots enhanced versions of Jack O'lantern, Whiplash, and Tiger Shark, who normally fight Spider-man, Iron Man, and Namor. This is right after being stabbed through the torso.
So in terms of both the gear she often carries beyond her sai, and her ability to use random objects as deadly weapons, then I'd say she is not so far below when it comes to gear.
Overall, I see Elektra having superior skill (cutting a guy apart but leaving him alive until touched), speed (still the Punisher gun scene), stealth (running on snow with no marks, running along a blade in flight), durability (stabbed through torso with no problem), and striking power (piercing Hulk's eyes, breaking Hulkbuster armor, punching through body armor), defeating fodder (100s of Hand) and a draw in agility. Their fights are both very good; I tend to want to avoid getting too deep into the hole of exactly which fights are better and which ones have more context to the win but the very least I'll say that Elektra's are certainly not worse.
I know you made further additions to some of the above points already, but I am trying to keep this already massive post somewhat less rambling so I will stick to this. If there are points you made in other posts that you'd like me to address I'd be happy to. Sorry for so putting so many damn scans in here but the point is to be clear that she has extensive, consistent, and superior feats in each of these categories. I will say in general that I had forgotten all about when Nightwing took over as Batman, he was pretty good then! But, I still see Elektra winning a decent majority over him. I'm not putting him down by any means, I just see Elektra as being on a higher level of accomplishment.
@owie: I've got matches for them, rest assured, but BLAST IT, man! You've done so many! Do you know how long it's going to take me to narrow my choices to align with what you have presented, arrange everything, then get my thoughts together to make a cogent post? Even replying to your non-scan comments alone is going to take awhile.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Heh.
You've done a good job, and I appreciate it, but dang, man.
@owie: I've got matches for them, rest assured, but BLAST IT, man! You've done so many! Do you know how long it's going to take me to narrow my choices to align with what you have presented, arrange everything, then get my thoughts together to make a cogent post? Even replying to your non-scan comments alone is going to take awhile.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Heh.
You've done a good job, and I appreciate it, but dang, man.
Like I said, it's gonna take me a minute.
Yeah I know, I really only meant to do a one scan replacement for each of the originals, and then got carried away. Sometimes the repetition of a certain feat is worthwhile in itself. Feel free to ignore most of it if you want. I have just been seeing a lot of Elektra vs Nightwing stuff recently and thought I'd better get this out there.
I'm about to go out of town for a week too, so if I get to reply to your reply, it will also take me a while.
**********
For those who are commenting on the fight as posted, I should clarify that she would lose a majority against both Jason and Dick, which to put it in Marvel terms would be like a fight against both Punisher and Daredevil. Elektra is pretty damn awesome, and one of Marvel's top tiers, but really no pure-human street leveler should win that.
I decided that the best way to respond to your post was to recreate it, then answer you statements point by point.
@theonewhoknows:I'm going to respond primarily to the scan-for-scan comparison structure you set up in post 18. This won't address every point that has been made outside of that, either by you or other debaters. But it should hopefully make for a somewhat direct comparison. As I said above, I like what you did with this scan-for-scan comparison, and I think it was intended to be fair. However, I would use different examples for some of the categories, and would add several categories of my own. In these added categories, I'll just be adding Elektra feats, with the invitation that you add whatever Nightwing feats you think are best for those categories so that they can be compared.
I'm also going to make all the scans I use, both mine and yours, links instead of in-line images to keep this from getting too cluttered. I'm pretty sure many people just skip over the images when they're links, but I think it will help the clarity quite a bit as I re-present your examples and then add my own.
Category 1 (blocking gunfire), with links to your scans
I truly can't tell what's going on in the Nightwing example. Are you saying he's throwing glass at the bullets? What I see here, and maybe if it was larger or if I saw more of the context I could better understand, is him throwing some of those metal wing-things and dodging some bullets. I don't really see the glass, or if that's it in the upper right corner I can't tell what's going on.
In any case, at least based on this evidence as I understand it, Elektra has massively higher speed and accuracy in the sense of being able to get her hands/weapons in the right place at the exact right time to stop numerous bullets.
OKAY, NOW MY COMMENTS:
Even if, for arguments sake, you "disqualified" the "Block With Glass" feat by Nightwing, that is not the first time Grayson has blocked bullets; here, while in the Batman persona he proves fast enough to block a point blank bullet barrage from a machine gun http://i.imgur.com/UUl6x90.jpg then dispatches the problem effortlessly-so Nightwing can match Elektra in this area, no doubt.
Category 2 Blitzing fodder
YOUR EXAMPLES:
Blitzes soldiers while sprinting.
MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):
I think we can safely assume both characters can blitz small groups of soldiers and such.
But if we want to discuss meaningful-level battles against fodder:
Elektra routs an entire militia army. You can see the size in the first scan. Over the night, she kills numerous ones of them without every being caught or seen directly, and in the end causing enough fear in the rest of them for them all to leave.
That's pretty cool. Nightwing-in the comparatively tight space of the Batcave-took out an army of R'as Al Ghul's League Of Assassins Ninjas (the ball gets rolling when Grayson uses his acute senses to discern one of the lurking, expert in stealth ninjas was laying in wait in the dark, dispatches him with an escrima stick, then deals with the rest of the clan
To my intense frustration, I couldn't find an isolated sequence of scans where Grayson-blood lusted because he thinks they have slain his soon to be girlfriend Starfire-wades into a hoard of Branx Warriors and Gordanian Slavers (another race of large, super strong aliens) simultaneously, using his speed, acrobatics, and combat skills to disarm them of their own weapons and take them all out to get to, and comfort Starfire.
The best I could find is the moments before, and a write up of the incident:
However, she's not there when Robin, Changeling, and Cyborg see Starfire's beaten body a little while later.
That's when Robin really loses everything. He thinks Starfire's dead and, without planning, without thinking, he just attacks a room full of the biggest, baddest warriors you can imagine, to save her.
Grayson preformed the last feat as a teenager, when he was not yet 18 years old.
Conclusion: the above evidence shows Elektra has no advantage in this area.
I think we can also safely assume both characters are highly agile and can dodge bullets. Nightwing's example is a very good one. Nightwing's reputation as being one of the most agile in DC is well-earned. But Elektra is also highly agile.
So, I would add these for Elektra, which are significantly better than the one you used, which was only a single shot:
While in terrible shape after being continuously tortured by the Skrulls and the HAMMER, she dodges double-machine gun fire from maybe 10' away at most: one, two and then, she dodges double-machine gun fire from maybe 15' away. Nightwing is hit from behind by high caliber gun shots, gets back up due to his suit (cops think it's kevlar, and Grayson confirms his suit is tougher than that by musing that kevlar is outdated https://imgur.com/a/TfytF
Grayson, while in the Batman I.D. dodges the point blank range of a gun right on his skull, resting on his temple-he amazingly appears to move after the bullet from gun has been shot http://i.imgur.com/dhSJIEf.jpg
Did somebody mention "crazy jumps and planes"??? So many options---where do I start??? Grayson was doing things like that when he was a child, during his Robin years https://imgur.com/a/iNhjN ; is shot at from a helicopter, saves people from the crashing of that helicopter https://imgur.com/a/Jxrd0 ; as one of his Outsiders team mates notes about Nightwing, "The pretty boy who just jumped out of a plane without a parachute is calling the shots" http://i.imgur.com/sfIIRUG.jpg ---I keepa' tellin' ya---Nigtwing is a baa-aaaaa-dd man
Tweeeeet! Flag on the play for excessive, and premature celebrating! (A) Even if what was just claimed was true, Elektra hasn't quite matched Grayson's "Jumping from planes" prowess, so things even out overall, and it's a wash, and (B) I truly don't want to seem like I'm dismissing the feat, because it is absolutely impressive looking. But in terms of being useful in a fight, it seems to be more of a parlor trick. I mean, in the context of being useful in a fight, does it denote agility soooooo above this http://i.imgur.com/cbTmoDT.jpg (Grayson shows off exemplary "impressive balance" indeed there)? It kind of reminds me of what Bruce Lee once said about the visually impressive looking feat of people breaking boards when applied to an actual fight: "Boards don't hit back". While cool looking, I honestly don't see how it shows her having agility that is a match, yet alone is legitimately superior to Nightwing.
I don't think the level of feats here is comparable. First, Elektra didn't deflect the bullet--she cut it in half.
Second, while it is true that a superhuman like Ravager can throw an object at high speeds, and so dodging it is a good feat, dodging it takes nowhere near the speed or body control it takes to intercept a bullet. Objectively speaking---I can somewhat agree with that, though a case can be made,I feel, that the hand/eye coordination required to dodge something thrown with meta human speed and strength is comparable. But let's say for arguments sake what you say is true---I think this example of Grayson-as Batman-hitting a would be shooter with the bat taser without turning around
I wouldn't argue against his suit's bullet-proof quality. But he does note that they hurt, that his arm is numb, and he has a broken rib.
But, when we get to striking power way below, I will argue that Elektra has striking power enough to penetrate a bullet-proof suit in any case.
To be fair, her bullet-proof hand is a one-time thing, I would normally not use that in her favor. However, if we take this category to be durability and pain tolerance, I have a number of examples to show that she can take pretty much any punishment she's likely to get in this fight (Then it's a wash, because Grayson has shown he can take an at least as formidable amount of punishment as well):
Here an enhanced Bullseye beats her down, to the degree that she can't move, her skull is broken, she has a brain hemorrhage, and is blind in one one, and eventually needs a steel plate in her head. This is the definition of beaten beyond the ability to fight. And then (full fight including getting hurt) she gets up out of pure willpower and beats the crap out of a bunch of Hand, their magical leader, and Bullseye.
The above example is an absolutely amazing example of the she ninja's seemingly endless supply of stamina, endurance, and indomitable will to go on no matter what. Grayson has matched this, in my view:
WILL POWER-Grayson went 10 days with virtually no food or water in a sweltering desert-even lasting longer and going further than Midnighter who is an enhanced individual https://imgur.com/a/1B8bL
And my favorite, When she finds out Lady Bullseye can become incorporeal, she lets her stab her in the abdomen with a giant longsword, moving her body so all the important organs are out of the way. She seems completely fine after this, and even goes on to easily defeat Jack O'Lantern, Tiger Shark, and Whiplash, and then kill the leaders of the Assassins Guild as if she is completely uninjured. I need to emphasize that no matter how you move your organs out of the way, being stabbed completely through your abdomen should be a lethal injury, the fact that not only did she survive this at all, but acted as if she was totally fine, is an amazing feat of durability, not to mention pain tolerance.
Nightwing casually fells a fleeing suspect from a long, long distance, to Tarrantula's shocked amazement http://i.imgur.com/cTV3Bs7.jpg
MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):
This "throw a sai into a gun" thing is actually a repeated feat for Elektra, as you'll see. Here are a number of other high level accuracy feats for her. Cool; let's see if Nightwing has similar feats to match that, and other Elektra endeavors
cuts head off flyThat is impressive---but I'm honestly not sure it requires waaaaay more skill than the earlier feat of Niightwing's that I featured of him, from a distance, needing just one shot to hit a tiny "Off" button with a wing ding---while dodging multiple machine gun shots at the same time; also, here's another example of Grayson's accuracy, hitting an assailant with a wing ding-in no look fashion-trying to ambush him from behind http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpNYXJrc21lbnNoaXAvbnc2Mi1yaW90LmpwZw==/?ref=
Throws sai into cable from a distanceNightwing does something at least equally as difficult-throws a wing ding at the fleeing villain Marionette who is several yards away-not at her, which would be difficult enough to hit a moving target, but the strap to her satchel https://imgur.com/t6FI5Wx
I think most people would actually consider that fight against Wolverine (more extensive version of the fight) a draw since it didn't get to completion. But she did have the advantage over him at multiple points. However, she did beat him earlier in Redeemer, a graphic novel which mixed typed text and experimental art.
I would strongly argue that a Talon is not equivalent to Wolverine, which I think you agreed to above eventually as well. It is a good feat though.
A) Wolverine is technically above a Talon, but they have similar meta human abilities, and Talons and the mutant both have generations long acquired fighting skills (hence, my use of the term "rough" equivalent) (B) Because Nightwing has defeated more than one of them-proving this is not a fluke-I believe the quantity of Grayson beating them equals the quality of Elektra's encounters with Logan, and (C) as I mentioned previously, even if one still dismisses the Talons as being in Wolverine's tier---opponents such as Midnighter and Slade-who Grayson has stalemated in several protracted battles, or defeated-definitely are in Logan's class, proving that Nightwing matches Elektra in being able to compete against that caliber and class of opponent, and making the whole matter, therefore, kinda moot.
Nightwing beat Ravager who is meta humanly faster and stronger than Bullseye; Grayson defeated her even faster than the super skilled Cassie Cain when she and Ravager fought in two extended battles https://imgur.com/a/XqEjN#0
MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):
Elektra has actually beaten Bullseye three times. He is obviously her constant enemy, and each fight has been exhaustive and detailed. The first time, after he had been training extensively to beat her using a hologram; the second time, after she had just gotten away from being tortured for months by Skrulls and HAMMER; and the third time when he was enhanced by Hand magic.
Nightwing beating Ravager is very solid, for sure. But honestly taking her out so quickly, with her just sitting there rubbing her throat, feels like it didn't really give Ravager her due.
That's a fair point. But it can be argued that a man who can stalelmate her father Slade on multiple occasions and defeat Midnighter twice-not to mention the feats you'll soon see in Category 20-is capable of defeating Ravager quickly in this one instance-especially since she was angry, and perhaps not fighting at her best at the time
Category 12 Fight
YOUR EXAMPLES:
Stalemate with Daredevil.
Nightwing defeated Batman, a better fighter, in an extended battle:
As can be seen in the links to the scans above, Nightwing got the last blow in, dropped Batman on his a$$, and got Wayne to-figuratively speaking-tap out. Trying to lowball this encounter into being a "workout", "sparring session", or any other such cop out excuse is futile; both King and Seeley, the creators of the story confirm it was an "all out fight" that Grayson won.
MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):
Elektra has extensively fought Daredevil a couple times: here they fight evenly until she wins via prep (your example); here she attacks him while bloodlusted and he mostly tries to stick to defending himself until eventually realizing he needs to fight back to survive (part one and part two); she hits him numerous more times than he does to her, and says he barely survived it here. He notes twice that her strikes almost killed him (the one "almost took his head off," the pulled kick that could have killed him). He also notes three times that there was a significant danger of losing or being killed (“has to stop this before she kills me,” he’s "got a chance” to win because she also sees something weird is going on, and “I almost died back there.”)
I don't consider Batman to be a better fighter than Daredevil in pure skill. I'd go with equal. I disagree with the two being equals; but even if for arguments sake they are, Grayson defeating an opponent equal to one Elektra did shows she has nothing on Grayson's prowess Nightwing doing this well against Bruce is very good, and I do read it as a real fight. I don't read that last panel as a full admitting of defeat, but at least of not wanting to continue. With respect (A) Wayne stipulated at the beginning of the fight that for it to end, Grayson had to win (nothing less would convince the Caped Crusader that Grayson hadn't lost his nerve after the events of the "Forever Evil" mini series); Wayne not being able and/or willing to continue-i.e., figuratively tapping out-concludes the guidelines of the fight's "contract" (B)-as mentioned before, the creators King and Seely state Grayson won. Your personal feelings-because you apparently feel that shouldn't happen-cannot overrule what the actual architects of the story say happened.
However, Batman has also beaten Dick in the past, so this seems to be one example where Nightwing tied/perhaps had a slight advantage, against a longer history of Batman being better. Whereas Elektra has tied/had the advantage over Matt in every encounter (including the ones where she kept knocking him in the the head with a sai by surprise). Batman defeated Nightwing in the past during his Robin/early Nightwing days when he still wasn't that far removed from being The Boy Wonder. The mid twenties Grayson now beats perfect clones of Batman with all of the original's memories and skills, Batman himself, defeats villains (KGBeast, an enhanced Joker) whom Wayne didn't defeat, and enhanced individuals like Midnighter. I submit that you cannot fairly use Grayson's showings from 15-20 years ago, and claim they more represent the prowess of Grayson today. So many people seem determined to freeze Grayson and his abilities to when he was 15-18 years old (which were still awesome, in any event) But:
Richard Grayson has improved; he is not the "Boy Wonder" any longer, and hasn't been for a long time.
I accept Cass as Shang Chi's equal. But it's not clear to me that that's really a draw, at least from what's in there. I mean this in the sense that I don't know what happens next; this just seems like the start.In my view, a battle where two opponents exchange blows and end up in mutual holds, defiantly staring each other down is a textbook draw
---as the scans shows, Grayson-as-Batman even got the last blow in, and prompted Slade to force Grayson to save those guards to give 'Stroke the opportunity to escape
MY COMMENTS (FOLLOWED BY MY COMMENTS):
Stalemating Deathstroke is good. But Deathstroke has also beaten him fairly in previous fights. As with your comments regarding Grayson's showings against Batman earlier, I must remind you that when facing the META HUMANLY strong and fast Deathstroke-after initially being batted around rather easily in his teen Robin/initial Nightwing years (no shame there, Robin/early Nightwing was a kid and the mercenary was a meta human) the mid twenties Nighwing now always gives Slade all he can handle---and more. All the time. I chronicled many of their long, full on, drag out battles in post 30 of this thread, please check the "spoiler" section of The "Deathstroke" portion again) so this particular stalemate you mention in your post is not some kind of one off fluke, or something.
While Elektra clearly defeated Taskmaster, and in her previous loss to him, it was only due to him confusing her briefly while acting like Daredevil. (It is interesting that Dick uses the "switch up his fighting style twice, both here and in the Midnighter example, similar to what Taskmaster does here. However, since Elektra is not familiar with Dick's style, and Dick is not familiar with Mat's style, it has no effect on this fight.) This much is correct
Elektra has the advantage in this comparison.
I have to disagree. Taskmaster's incredible photographic reflexes ability makes him exceptionally combat skilled-but he does not truly have meta human speed, strength, etc. His being able to instantly combine the styles, moves, and combat prowess of so many people simultaneously makes him formidable indeed, and simulates meta human ability---but as Slade is combat skilled as well and is an actual meta human, Nightwing stalemating him in protracted battles equals Elektra beating an exceptionally skilled, but human adversary in my view. I therefore honestly don't think-overall-there is any advantage for Elektra here.
I agree that Elektra's ribbons cutting feat is little better than Grayson's nunchuks feat---but in the context of what he can do as a whole, I don't see it being sooooo much better that it indicates he can't get a blow in on her, or defend himself from her. And I really disagree that Elektra's feats require more control than Nightwing's "Hit The Off Switch/Dodge Machine Gun Fire" feat. Think about it: how difficult is it to hit a tiny button from a long distance, period---then adding the horrendous pressure of having to dodge multiple assailants firing multiple bullets at you while you're doing it?
Nah, man. Nightwing's "Switch/Machine Gun" feat absolutely requires the same amount of control as what Elektra accomplished.
As for the additional feat you have displayed (the limbs/head cutting one) I will add a few I think-in a non lethal way-is as impressive. First, this (pay attention to the sequences all the way to the last panel) http://i.imgur.com/LqJxleh.jpg or his slicing the strap off a satchel being carried by a moving target (the super villain Marionette) from a distance with a wing ding https://imgur.com/t6FI5Wxand the sure shot precision Nightwing uses with a single escrima stick to break up a brawl between members of The Outsiders and Supergirl http://i.imgur.com/Gf26qnw.jpg
Also, consider her disassembling a gun by a single touch here. If Nightwing tries to pull out any complex gear, she can just negate it with a touch. That's a possibility. But considering Grayson (during this example in the Batman I.D) has the speed to do this https://i.imgur.com/Vxq57Bf.jpg then https://i.imgur.com/o63SG9k.jpg and has gear that includes sophisticated explosives, stun grenades, and EMPs---do you really think Elektra is fast enough to-for sure-disassemble his gear faster than he can stop her and take apart equipment that is far more complex than a gun?
Conclusion: I'm open to more data to be convinced, but at this point, from the evidence above, I see no meaningful advantage
In the scene with Batman, it looks to me that Nightwing jumps to push Batman out of the way when Batman's back is turned to the shooter. So I don't see this as proof that Nightwing has better reaction time than Batman; we don't know if Batman even knew about the danger. A good reaction to danger on Dick's part, sure. But not the same as taking a gun out of a guy's hands from several feet away without him seeing you move.
I have to disagree because (A) in reading the story, there is no indication that the shooters were hidden from Batman-one of the most aware heroes ever-enough for him to not have seen 'em; Nightwing (who on more than occasion has been referred to as legitimately faster than Wayne) just reacted quicker; (B) even if that was the case, moving fast enough to save one's self, much less one's self and another person from machine gun fire is equally as impressive as disarming someone of a single gun, and (C) if you are still not convinced, not only has Grayson disarmed someone of their gun in a similar fashion to Elektra as displayed in scans above, but he did it again while in the Batman persona, this time from a distance, against someone as skilled as The Punisher: Karl Tresser, A.K.A Nemesis http://i.imgur.com/F4HffXE.jpg
This is more of Nightwing's battle with Slade, who also has enhanced speed where Nightwing is running rings around the mercenary as if he was standing still http://i.imgur.com/1r6e70d.jp
Or, here she steals Northstar's body from under the noses of Iceman, Polaris, and Dani Moonstar so fast they barely even register it ("What the hell was that?"): one, two, three
Absolutely impressive-but more impressive than Grayson defeating speedster Captain Boomerang Jr. http://i.imgur.com/SFS9o68.jpg-I think it's safe to say he is far faster than Elektra, and therefore the skill required to defeat him is at least on par with what the she ninja displayed before Iceman, Polaris, and Dani Moonstar
I could go on with her speed for a long time. As could I with his.
I think you would have to admit---I've more than matched her reaction and speed feats
To all the above, I will now add:
Category 17: Extensive top-tier fight
Elektra ties with Iron Fist, arguably having the advantage over him (and hitting him more) until he wins via chi-blast. I've shown multiple feats of Grayson tying the meta human Slade, and defeating meta humans Ravager and Midnighter which easily matches that----also, for a little extra somethin somethin' regarding Nigtwing's skill---here, after the villain Mother takes out three other Robins-Tim, Jason, and Batman's son the current Robin simultaneously, Grayson takes her on alone, one on one----and wins https://imgur.com/a/knsyg ! Nightwing defeated an opponent that defeated three Batman and/or League Of Assassins trained individuals at the same time, so this, combined with Grayson's showings against the others I mentioned proves Elektra has nothing on him regarding top tier fights---
But more importantly, she can strike with ridiculous force. I will in particular emphasize that she stabs the Hulk in the eyes, breaks Hulkbuster armor open with her hands, and on multiple occasions punches through body armor, as she could with Nightwing's bulletproof costume.
Punches through guy and pulls out his heart. If Grayson was effortlessly one shot chopping through multiple cinder blocks placed upon each other as a child (while the stern taskmaster Batman stood over him telling him to "do it better") http://i.imgur.com/Y9ZAF6F.jpg---as a full grown man he could effortlessly do the same to a frail human body if he were a killer like Elektra; Grayson normally doesn't kill people-he just beats up those who do
She crushes a guy’s skull, or at least his jaw.See the earlier "Grayson was one shot chopping multiple bricks stacked upon another as a child" comments
She crushes a skull, likening it to an eggshell, and also crushes a throat A "Had It Up To Here" Nightwing, when facing the neo meta human, highly combat skilled, impervious to pain Raptor, cruelly breaks both this opponents arms and legs, leaving Raptor laying and strewn on the floor in a pathetic heaphttps://imgur.com/a/sYMjl; a Grayson that can easily break multiple human limbs can do the same to a human skull and/or throat if Grayson was a killer like Elektra, I'm sure you would agree.
She pulls out a guy’s heart. Once again, see "Grayson was one shot chopping cinder blocks stacked one upon the other as a child, as an adult could do the same to people if he was a killer" feature above
Knocks out Morbius with double hits to the sides of his head with her sai handles. This era of Morbius has a significant healing factor, for instance being stabbed solidly through the torso by Stone, then being fine a few hours later. Besides Nighwing taking out multiple Talons-who are all meta humans with "significant healing factors"-Nightwing has dealt with other meta humans such as Man-Bat, and KOing the Hybrid's Pteradon http://i.imgur.com/mrrIvSp.jpg
Category 20: Random powered bad guys.
Here she basically one-shots enhanced versions of Jack O'lantern, Whiplash, and Tiger Shark, who normally fight Spider-man, Iron Man, and Namor. This is right after being stabbed through the torso.
The above feats you reference are truly impressive---but is easily matched-if not surpassed-by Nightwing soloing several super powered bad guys including Snakepit (powerful enough to go up against Superman) Mangog (a team busting severe thorn in Superman's side as well) and Kid Amazo (an individual who siphons superpowers in a similar fashion to the android Amazo itself) https://imgur.com/a/pBdGK
The above feat is easily matched-if not surpassed-by Nightwing, save for a single instance of help on his behalf-defeating the android version of Paragon, who is a one man JLA (and during the fight uses the powers of, among others, Aquaman, Flash, Green Lantern, and Superman!!) https://imgur.com/a/CJlCn
You must admit this, my man-in this category, once again: NIghtwing got this.
Category 21: Gear and more
You've said Nightwing's gear is way better. Perhaps better than just her sai, but Elektra often carries firearms and explosives, has a garrotein her sash, and also uses poison. That sounds like things Elektra often uses, but is not standard; Grayson's standard equipment alone includes matches for those-firearms wrist gauntlets emit non lethal projectiles explosives Grayson carries multiple, exotic explosive devises garrote wrist gauntlets shoot out bolos poison various gassesPlus, she has often proved herself to be lethal using random objects even while fighting against opponents who have superior weapons, as for instance she did when she killed several well-armed Hand with shards of ice, Nightwing has defeated armed opponents using pool balls http://i.imgur.com/pwyu2y6.jpgwell-armed agents of SHIELD with broken glass,For a change, Grayson took out opponents with guns-not by shooting from them, but actually throwing the guns themselves to KO his foeshttp://photobucket.com/gallery/user/themanwonder/media/cGF0aDpNYXJrc21lbnNoaXAvbnd0YXJnZXQtZ3VuZGluZ3MxLmpwZw==/?ref=
So in terms of both the gear she often carries beyond her sai, and her ability to use random objects as deadly weapons, then I'd say she is not so far below when it comes to gear. Judging by what I have just displayed, I would say that while she is versatile in using improvised weapons to her advantage, Grayson at least matches her in that department; and though she constantly-but not always-carries a diverse array of gear-Nightwings's standard arsenal of goodies (suit taser, electrorangs, gas pellets, tranquilizer darts, wing dings, electrified, virtually unbreakable escrima batons, EMPs, and much much more-whew!) easily matches, and far surpasses the amount of gear she carries, even at her most plentiful
Overall, I see Elektra having superior skill (cutting a guy apart but leaving him alive until touched (Nightwing's "Break Up The Supergirl/Outsiders Fight With His Ricocheting Baton That Returned To His Hand Like A Boomerang" roughly matches that in a non fatal way, in my view), speed (still the Punisher gun scene I matched that with two examples of Nightwing disarming a person of their gun before they could move, including Punisher's equal Nemesis)), stealth (running on snow with no marks,Nightwing's boots kinda matches that running along a blade in flight Very cool looking, but more a parlor trick in my view, that doesn't denote balance sooooo much better than Nightwing that is useful in a fight), durability (stabbed through torso with no problem As shown above, Nightwing has been viciously stabbed in more than one situation, many times, kept fighting and won), and striking power (piercing Hulk's eyes, breaking Hulkbuster armor, punching through body armor In this particular instance, Elektra's Hulk injuring and armor smashing feats seem noticeably superior-but her exposed body is just as susceptible to Grayson's own impressive striking power if he manages to beat her to the punch), defeating fodder (100s of Hand Nightwing matched that by defeating an army of League Of Assassins Ninjas and before that an army of massive alien Gordanian slavers and massive, combat skilled Branx Warriors simultaneously---when he was still a teenager) and a draw in agility No "draw"-Nightwing is the DC Comics acknowledged top acrobat and most agile human in their universe https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111219076/4972956-1nightwing.jpgable to do things in this area that no one else can, like the quadruple somersault jump http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/dhunter22/media/cGF0aDovQUxQRDQuanBn/?ref= (as the scan shows, Grayson was doing things like that even before he became Robin) Their fights are both very good; I tend to want to avoid getting too deep into the hole of exactly which fights are better and which ones have more context to the win but the very least I'll say that Elektra's are certainly not worse. Agreed--but, looking at their feats overall, I can categorically state that she's no better, either.
I know you made further additions to some of the above points already, but I am trying to keep this already massive post somewhat less rambling so I will stick to this. If there are points you made in other posts that you'd like me to address I'd be happy to. Sorry for so putting so many damn scans in here but the point is to be clear that she has extensive, consistent, and superior feats in each of these categories. I will say in general that I had forgotten all about when Nightwing took over as Batman, he was pretty good then! But, I still see Elektra winning a decent majority over him. I'm not putting him down by any means, I just see Elektra as being on a higher level of accomplishment. After carefully, and fully reviewing the expansion of Nightwing's feats I have displayed before you, I would be honestly surprised if you continued to hold that view.
Elektra is absolutely, unequivocably, irrefutably bad, Bad, BAD. But in every category, I believe I have shown matching-and in many cases, superior-feats to hers that Nightwing has accomplished.
Therefore, I would still have to say the tie breaker is his gear.
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